From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 07:28:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71ERI06020335; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71EQw6j020334; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71EQA06020325 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71ENaUu028999 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ratree.psu.ac.th (ratree.psu.ac.th [202.12.73.3]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71ENTgX001682 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from delta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (delta.coe.psu.ac.th [172.30.0.98]) by ratree.psu.ac.th (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h71ENJH00631; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:23:20 +0700 (ICT) Received: from munnari.OZ.AU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by delta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h71ENAm10181; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:23:10 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: iesg@ietf.org cc: "Tony Hain" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal In-Reply-To: <086101c357bd$a984e440$70144104@eagleswings> References: <086101c357bd$a984e440$70144104@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:23:10 +0700 Message-ID: <11093.1059747790@munnari.OZ.AU> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Dear IESG members. When considering Tony Hain's appeal (which was in the message referenced in the "References" header of this message), there are a few more points that he didn't mention that you may wish to take into account when determining whether or not there were procedural irregularities. First, RFC2418 (aka BCP 25) (WG procedures) requires... For coordinated, structured WG interactions, the Chair(s) MUST publish a draft agenda well in advance of the actual session. The agenda of the March 2003 ipv6 WG meeting was sent to the mailing list on March 14. The WG meetings were on March 17 & 20. "Well in advance". Hmmm... Whether a copy of this was sent to agenda@ietf.org (as required) or not I don't know, but it appears not, as nothing is present in the ietf/ipv6 directory (the last posted agenda or minutes there are from the November 2002 meeting). Then The minutes shall be submitted in printable ASCII text for publication in the IETF Proceedings, and for posting in the IETF Directories and are to be sent to: minutes@ietf.org As best I can tell, no minutes have been submitted for that meeting (even though the next meeting has already been completed). Draft minutes were sent to the mailing list (March 28), but nothing further seems to have been done. They certainly don't appear in the normal IETF places for WG meeting minutes (as for example, the November 2002 minutes do). Given all of this, it would not be unreasonable to ask that everything done at the SF meeting of the ipv6 WG be eliminated from the collective record, just as if the meeting never happened. That's probably the correct course of action - but we probably don't have to take it quite that far. Then, again from rfc2418: In determining the balance, the WG must ensure that its process does not serve to exclude contribution by email-only participants. Decisions reached during a face-to-face meeting about topics or issues which have not been discussed on the mailing list, or are significantly different from previously arrived mailing list consensus MUST be reviewed on the mailing list. First from that note, "reviewed" on the mailing list, not "continued there". Before we get to that though, there's the issue of whether the "deprecate site local" was a new issue, or one that had been dragging along forever. Look at the agenda of the SF ipv6 meeting (that one that appeared all of 3 days before the meeting), and on this topic you'll see ... Site-Local Addressing Impact of site-local addressing -- Margaret Wasserman (20 min) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-02.txt "Limited Usage" Summary -- Margaret Wasserman (5 min) [See appendix of draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-02, above.] "Moderate Usage" Proposal -- Bob Hinden (15 min) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-sl-moderate-01.txt Chairs recommendation and discussion -- Chairs (30 min) By all means go and read the two drafts mentioned, you will find nothing about "deprecate site local addresses", that appears to have been a very late invention. That is, clearly this is something, which in the words of rfc2418 was "topics or issues which have not been discussed on the mailing list, or are significantly different from previously arrived mailing list consensus" and so "MUST be reviewed on the mailing list." What was actually done on the list wasn't to review the decision, but to augment a vote taken during the WG meeting. That is, rather than a review of the decision (which is to say, a new decision process which determines whether the original decision should stand), the WG meeting was just extended out into the mailing list. That is not what 2418 requires. Further, there is very good reason for that - it is way too easy for people in a face to face meeting, who haven't really thought through a new issue or proposal, to be swayed by a persuasive sounding argument, and express agreement, only to end up changing their minds once a period of reasoned thought has had a chance to occur. In many cases people who have no opinion express one, just because lots of other people are doing the same thing, they have no reason to disagree, so they go along with the crowd. That's why we have mailing list review of decisions - on the list there's no reason for those who have no opinion to say anything at all, and there is plenty of time (or should be) for contemplation of all of the arguments before making a decision. In this case however, when the issue was brought to the mailing list (message of April 01 - comments about fools omitted here) the requirement was, quoting from that message: This email asks those that were NOT present at the Thursday IPv6 meeting in SF to express their opinions on a question that was asked of the room. If you expressed an opinion on this issue in SF you can skip this message; in any case you MUST NOT respond to this query. That is, no-one was permitted to have had a change of mind. One may speculate as to why this "unusual" approach was taken, and perhaps reach the conclusion that having achieved a large majority (reported in the draft minutes as 102 to 20) in favour of the "deprecate site local" decision, they didn't want to risk any of that majority being dropped away, or any of the people who supported it, not really being on the ipv6 list, and so not normally a part of the working group or its decision making process (which isn't to say anyone should be excluded, anyone can join the list, and if, knowing the issue was to be discussed there, they had a strong opinion upon it, anyone could have joined the list to express that opinion). When the mailing list voting ended [aside: Tony is quite correct, a cursory review of the list archives will find messages with subjects like "Consensus on what?" where people were attempting to work out just what it was they were being asked to decide - and note this is well after the WG meeting, if people on the list in early April still had no idea what the question really was, how could anyone who was actually in the face to face meeting?] for which apparently just 1 week was enough (as the decision was announced in a message on April 9) despite this obviously being a highly contentious issue, the result announced was The final count (including the room and the mailing list) was: 155 YES, 56 NO (211 Total). If one were to ignore the people in the room, what that means is that on the list, the opinions were 53 to 36, which is about as close to a split vote (clearly nothing like any kind of consensus) as is ever going to be achieved. Of course, we will never know now just what the count might have been had the instruction not been given to people who were in the SF meeting to say nothing on the issue. Of course, there's also no list anywhere public of who the 122 people who voted in SF actually were, I have no idea if the chairs know, but I'd suspect not (just doing something which is going to pretend to be an accurate count of 122 votes near the end of a busy WG session is close to impossible to get right, making a list of names is almost impossible). That means there's no way to tell how many of them voted again (on either side of the issue). This whole process was clearly flawed. Further, even that assumes that taking votes is the way the IETF operates. That would not often be regarded as a normal way to do things. Normally, WGs take "straw polls" to determine whether just about everyone agrees with a point, or disagrees, or whether there's a serious split. Here, had this been regarded as a straw poll, then even with 155 to 56 numbers, "serious split" and "no consensus" would have been the only reasonable result. The IESG must instruct the ipv6 WG chairs that they erred in determining that there was consensus on this issue, that the procedures were flawed, and that the IETF does not count votes to determine consensus, or rough consensus. This may not seem very important, as there is no apparent outcome from this decision. What is important though is that the WG not be railroaded into agreeing to a later document (which is rumoured to be going to be written one day) with the argument that the WG already reached consensus that this be done, and that no re-opening of that issue will be permitted (which is what I anticipate may happen). That is, if this planned document ever appears, the only discussion allowed may be whether or not it says the right things to implement the supposed consensus, and not whether or not the document itself is a good thing to publish. That cannot be allowed to happen, and certainly not based upon the flawed processes in this particular instance. Finally, while not strictly relevant to the current question, you may also wish to know that on April 10 (the day after the decision was announced), I sent a message to each of the WG chairs (and copied to the WG mailing list - Message-id: <11997.1049967846@munnari.OZ.AU>) in which I asked ... You can expect an appeal against the decision that there is rough consensus here. What there is, is a debate. You can treat this message as an official request to the WG chairs that they reconsider the stated position. That's the first step ... The WG chairs did not bother to reply to any of the issues raised in that message. Or at least, they have not so far. kre -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 07:48:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71El506020946; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71EkjEw020945; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71Eju06020938 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71EhNV7001774 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71EhHBj005230 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:43:17 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNX8Q4F+VbeM9/lQ46/kemKZjjPowASBF1g From: "Michel Py" To: "Tony Hain" , Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h71EkC06020939 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [SNAP] I totally agree with the beginning of Tony's post. > Tony Hain wrote: > Until the WG agrees on the requirements, there is no > possibility for the group to evaluate the utility of > the current SL or other approaches. I would go further than this and say that requirements alone are not enough to evaluate what to do WRT this issue, as requirements could be impossible to meet (as seen with multi6, for example). Requirements are good but must be complemented by looking at _solutions_ as well and as of today we don't have any solution to replace site-locals. An imperfect solution is better than no solution and until we find a better mouse trap it is harmful to deprecate the running code deployed by multiple vendors that we currently have. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 09:08:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71G7q06023535; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71G7Wv8023502; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71G6h06023471 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71G42V7024828 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux.research.att.com (H-135-207-24-16.research.att.com [135.207.24.16]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71G3vGd011566 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:03:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.30.101]) by linux.research.att.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h71GMqJh010333; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:22:52 -0400 Received: from berkshire.research.att.com (guard.research.att.com [135.207.1.20]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h71G3FB27940; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from research.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berkshire.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF437C92; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:03:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Tony Hain" Cc: iesg@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:03:14 -0400 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" Message-Id: <20030801160315.ECF437C92@berkshire.research.att.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony -- to make life easier for all concerned, please state explicitly what recourse you're asking for from the IESG. As things stand now, even if we agreed with everything you say, we wouldn't know exactly what you want us to do. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 16:39:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71IfX06027183; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71IfCUO027171; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71IeO06027123 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71IboV7024635 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71IbijY012349 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:37:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:37:43 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Steven M. Bellovin'" Cc: , Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:36:01 -0700 Message-ID: <090801c3585b$c2879700$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030801160315.ECF437C92@berkshire.research.att.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h71Iee06027153 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > Tony -- to make life easier for all concerned, please state > explicitly > what recourse you're asking for from the IESG. As things stand now, > even if we agreed with everything you say, we wouldn't know exactly > what you want us to do. I thought I did: 'The declaration of consensus must be overturned as an abuse of the process.' I guess I am not sure what you are looking for since there is little else the IESG can do. Would kre's more explicit and directive choice of words have been better? 'The IESG must instruct the ipv6 WG chairs that they erred in determining that there was consensus on this issue, that the procedures were flawed, and that the IETF does not count votes to determine consensus, or rough consensus.' Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 16:45:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71J1P06027882; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71J14RN027881; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71J0k06027874 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71IwCUu004876 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71Iw71w019423 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:58:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA06341 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:58:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h71Iw5X30369; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:58:05 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308011858> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdffWuuL; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:58:03 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030801115644.02bccc30@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:57:04 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: test, please ignore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk test, please ignore. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 16:51:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71NHX06006647; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71NHDQC006646; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71NGs06006638 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71NEKV7006740 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71NEF1w029918 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA22765; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h71NEDF19236; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:14:13 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308012314> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdg7QI0P; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:14:09 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030801160956.031d7410@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:13:08 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Draft Minutes from Vienna IETF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_106663243==_" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --=====================_106663243==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The draft minutes from the IPv6 working group sessions at the Vienna IETF are attached. Please review and send us comments and corrections. Thanks, Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman --=====================_106663243==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IPv6-Meeting-Minutes-July2003.txt" IPv6 WG Minutes July 14 & 17, 2003 IETF57 -- Vienna, Austria ========================= CHAIRS: Bob Hinden Margaret Wasserman Minutes taken by Margaret Wasserman and Bob Hinden. AGENDA: Monday July 14, 2003 Introduction and Agenda Bashing -- Bob Hinden (5 min) Document Status and Priorities -- Bob Hinden (10 min) Open Issues with IPv6 Node Requirements -- John Loughney (15 min) Open Issues with IPv6 MIBs -- Brian Haberman (10 min) Open Issues with Prefix Delegation Requirements -- Shin Miyakawa (10 min) Bridge-like Neighbor Discovery Proxies -- Dave Thaler (15 min) IPv6 Node Information Queries -- Bob Hinden (15 min) IPv6 Socket API for source address selection -- Samita Chakrabarti (10 min) Link Name and Sequence Options for IPv6 Neighbor Discovery -- Naiming Shen (5 min) Thursday, July 17, 2003 Introduction and Agenda Review -- Bob Hinden (5 min) Open Issues with Scoped Address Architecture -- Jinmei Tatuya (10 min) Requirements for Local Addressing: Local Addressing Requirements -- Tony Hain & Juha Wiljakka (20 min) General Discussion of Local Addressing Requirements -- Chairs (30 min) Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses -- Bob Hinden (20 min) Site-Local Deprecation Document Plan -- Christian Huitema (30 min) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Introduction and Agenda Bashing -- Bob Hinden --------------------------------------------- Bob Hinden announced an IPv6 Interoperability event in September in Brussels. For more information see: http://www.etsi.org/plugtests Plan is to discuss short topics and normal business today, and use Thursday primarily for local discussion topic. There were no comments or changes to the agenda. Document Status and Priorities -- Bob Hinden -------------------------------------------- (See slides) James Kempf asked if the Neighbor Discover changes are related to a mobility draft on Friday. Bob Hinden explained that we are making updates for minor issues and hope to recycle at Draft Standard. Major changes or new features should be considered independently. Discussion of dropping PPP. Alex Conta thinks that we should update it for specific changes, which he will send to the list. Open Issues with IPv6 Node Requirements -- John Loughney -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-04.txt (See slides) The document is currently in last call, and needs to be updated to address 14 issues. Bob Hinden suggested that the Path MTU issue might be better resolved by referencing the recommendations in the Path MTU document as it is covered in detail there. John Loughney agreed. ???? mentioned that SSM is in last call and that it should be referenced in this group. She will send proposed text to the WG. Bob Hinden raised concern that we may not want to be dependent on SSM if it is still a draft. Brian Haberman pointed out that it is already in the IESG, so this may not be a problem. Hesham asked if we should change the name of the document to host requirements, since we aren't including router requirements. John Loughney will work on some text for the introduction that makes this clear, if it isn't there already. Dave Thaler pointed out that we should have a section labeled "router requirements" unless it lists all of the router requirements. Alex Conta raised the issue that if neither Path MTU or fragmentation is mandatory, you can run into problems. Dave Thaler pointed out that RFC 2460 requires that you support fragmentation reassembly or that you send "too big" message. This isn't in the Path MTU document. There is a difference between what is required for hosts and routers in this regard. Alex Conta agreed. Rob Austein asked if there are DOCSIS devices that use MIBs but don't support SNMP. Margaret Wasserman pointed out that DOCSIS devices do support SNMP. Some discussion of the fact that while devices SHOULD be manageable, SNMP is a MAY. Rob agreed that this addressed his issue. Dave Thaler raised issue about what we do when a normative reference is obsoleted by a newer one. Do we assume that the requirement will follow forward to a successor? If so, we could only include references for the currently published version. Christian suggested that we remove references to anything that isn't published yet. Bob Hinden and John Loughney agreed that we should review current status and decide what make sense in each case. Alain Durand raised concern about the fact that we might not have any requirement for DNS discovery in the host requirements if the DNSOP WG doesn't move forward on it. John Loughney pointed out that there is no RFC, and no specific plan to have one. Bob Hinden pointed out that we will need to cycle this document in the future -- if we wait for each new thing, there will always be another one. John Loughney agreed. Open Issues with IPv6 MIBs -- Brian Haberman -------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2011-update-03.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2012-update-03.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-04.txt (See slides) No issues raised with proposed changes suggested in presentation. Documents will be forwarded to IESG when new drafts are published. ACTION: Submit to IESG for Proposed Standard when new MIB drafts are published. Open Issues with Prefix Delegation Requirements -- Shin Miyakawa ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-02.txt (See slides) Reviewed requirements. Asked if it was ready to send to IESG. Question raised about prefix lifetimes. Inside vs. outside prefix lifetimes. Review minutes from previous IETF meetings. Ralph Droms checked draft and could be added. Margaret polled w.g. to see if we should cycle, or move ahead as is. Consensus to not make this change. Will make editorial changes and will be submitted to IESG when new draft is out. ACTION: Submit to the IESG for Informational when new Prefix Delegation Requirements draft is published. Bridge-like Neighbor Discovery Proxies -- Dave Thaler ----------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thaler-ipv6-ndproxy-00.txt (See slides) Reviewed draft. Few questions to clarify how it works, relationship to SEND, does it require listening to all multicast traffic. Erik Nordmark: Doesn't understand relationship to SEND. Not sure which problems are being solved. Nordmark: Loop prevention and for devices not support spanning tree protocol. Assuming one device does spanning tree. A: Should be possible to handle non IEEE spanning tree capable media. Q: Wants to understand what are the limits of this proposal. Document needs to be clearer. Alan D: What happens to TTL? A: Nothing, bridges don't touch TTL. LLMC? OK, no problem. Question would like to see how to do SEND on Proxies. Proxy SEND is first priority after SEND spec is done. Margaret Wasserman: This isn't exactly prefix delegation. A: Right. Relationship to Zeroconf Routers: A: This group not meeting this week, had one BOF previously. No agreement on Zeroconf routers BOF. Would like to see work go forward. Pekka: Why need spanning tree? Need to be able to handle range of topology. Should only solve problems. an ever node see every other node. A: Yes, full reachability to every prefix to every other prefix. IPv6 Node Information Queries -- Bob Hinden ------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-icmp-name-lookups-10.txt (See slides) Thomas Narten asked what is implement, and there were some answers. KAME doesn't implement IPv4 portions, but USAGI does. Alain Durand commented on privacy handling. When someone asks for a name at a private address, you don't want to reveal permanent names or addresses. And, when you query a permanent address, you don't want to return temporary names/addresses. There is also a need not to expose mapping between private addresses that might allow you to track what the same user is doing over time. Rob Austein mentioned that the applicability of scenarios where these things are relevant are out-of-scope. Discussion of removing IPv4 address query -- at least one implementation includes it. Alain Durand brought up question of whether we should extend this to IPv4 transport. Bob Hinden hadn't thought about it. Alain claims that the only thing needed to make this run over IPv4 is to reserve the ICMP code in the IPv4 space. A new draft is needed. Bob will propose text changes to the WG for the RFC 3041 changes. After that is resolved, could we send it to the IESG? Pekka suggested that the applicability statement won't stop people from using this in other ways. We should either severely limit this draft or publish it as experimental. Alain Durand and Itojun indicated that they would like to see the work published, because it is useful for debugging IPv6 networks. CONSENSUS: The group believes that we should publish something along these lines, because of existing implementations and usefulness. CONSENSUS: We have consensus of the group to submit the draft, with the changes that Bob has proposed to the IESG for PS. Bob and Matt will update the spec and circulate the changes for discussion/approval by the WG. IPv6 Socket API for source address selection -- Samita Chakrabarti ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chakrabarti-ipv6-addrselect-api-01.txt (See slides) Quick overview followed by open issues, due to time constraints. Alain Durand raised questions about whether this API would be consistent with other APIs underway elsewhere -- IPSEC APIs, etc. Brian Carpenter expressed a concern that this might never be used by application programmers. They won't understand it and don't want to work on this level. We need a different level of abstraction. Thinks we need an API at this level, as well as at a higher level for Java programmers, etc. Pekka thinks that this is a good, precise API for low-level control. Having a higher level API would be okay, too. Jinmei Tatuya has discussed this with KAME folks -- not clear if this is the right balance between low-level control and abstraction. Prefers Francis Dupont's idea. Erik thinks that some of this complexity (public/private) might be good to expose to developers, but perhaps not others (COA optimization). Doesn't think that per-process level stuff works well because of libraries and assumptions made by libraries, etc. Francis believes that this API is too low level. Chairs asked who had read the document -- some people have. QUESTION: Should we accept this as a WG work item? The group was split with majority for accepting. Thomas Narten asked why people did not want to accept. Christian Huitema said that he does not think that we need an API at this level. The chairs called the question again (rough count was 13 to 5 for accepting the document). No clear consensus. We need to get more people to read the draft and develop an informed opinion. Link Name and Sequence Options for IPv6 Neighbor Discovery -- Naiming Shen --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shen-ipv6-nd-name-seq-options-01.txt Deferred to Thursday morning. Thursday, 0900-1130 (Hall F2) ============================= Introduction and Agenda Review -- Bob Hinden -------------------------------------------- Bob presented the agenda. There were no comments or changes. Link Name and Sequence Options for IPv6 Neighbor Discovery -- Naiming Shen (10 min) --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shen-ipv6-nd-name-seq-options-01.txt (See slides) Comments from Greg Daley. Thinks that naming portion may be interesting. Issue regarding what happens when the sequence numbers don't get responded to? Answer -- if you don't get a response, you send another one. Erik Nordmark mentioned that there is a protocol called MSAL? that allows this type of functionality. Dave Thaler confirmed that it is defined for IPv6. May be some overlap. Bob Hinden asked w.g. if there was interest in perusing this work. Greg Daley: Some interest in naming portion, but not in sequence numbers. Nordmark: Something in multicast for names as well. Not a great deal of interest in perusing as a working group item. Open Issues with Scoped Address Architecture -- Jinmei Tatuya ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-scoping-arch-00.txt (See slides) Major change in this version of the draft is removal of unicast site-local addresses. No comments on the list. One issue has been raised regarding PIM, but has been resolved and will be handled in a separate draft. Authors believe draft is ready for w.g. last call. Christian Huitema brought up issue of anycast addresses for service discovery. Says that these addresses will have the same type of scoping requirements as multicast addresses. So, he thinks that we may want to specify a scope for anycast addresses. Itojun responding to Christian -- wrote Anycast Analysis draft. Issue is not about scoping, but about the propagation of an anycast route. In what region is your anycast route advertisement propagated. Captured in anycast analysis. Jinmei thinks that the anycast topic is out of scope for this document. Tony Hain believes that this document is nowhere near ready for last call, because it will just need to be updated in six months or less. Margaret Wasserman believes that we should complete this draft because of the need to get link-local addresses specified as soon as possible. Brian Carpenter agrees that in .5 hours to six months, we will have a local addressing architecture of some kind. He thinks that this document needs to stay "in limbo" until we figure out what to do with local addressing. Thinks that we need to coordinate with ABNF text representation folks to make sure that we are in sync. Jinmei is open to idea that we'd add local addressing to this draft, but is pushing for last call because there are no remaining technical issues in the contents of this draft. Erik Nordmark indicated that he disagrees with the previous comments by Tony and Brian. He thinks that we need to document link local. There are a lot of open architectural issues with local addressing that he hoped there would be answered in the IAB meeting, but they weren't. May take time to sort out these issues. Itojun agrees with Erik, and disagrees with Tony and Brian. We need to publish this document as soon as possible. Christian suggested that we finish the discussion in this meeting before we publish this document. Margaret Wasserman pointed out that we haven't had a last call yet. General agreement that we won't manage to issue a last call before the end of this meeting, anyway. Requirements for Local Addressing --------------------------------- Local Addressing Requirements -- Tony Hain & Juha Wiljakka ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-ipv6-sitelocal-01.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-templin-lsareqts-00.txt (See slides) Presentation was done by Tony, Fred and Juha in unison. Tony is presenting, but represents shared view. On question of local<>global communication, Dave Thaler pointed out that there another question about whether you should be able to communicate between to different local networks (i.e. merger case). Margaret Wasserman pointed out that we might want to communicate global<>local for network management and debugging, especially in situations where you only know a local address. So, we shouldn't forbid it, even if we discourage it. Alain Durand pointed out that there is complexity of having local and global addresses on the same system. Tony agreed. Alain: If you have public PI space, would it fit all of the requirements? Tony thinks that it would meet most of the requirements, but thinks that this should be done in parallel with PI, because local addressing has security benefits that a single error can't expose the whole network. Erik was happy with terminology, but then lost him. Thinks that there isn't a single local range -- need multiple nested and overlapping local ranges. Tony says that this mechanism will support multiple local ranges. Erik says that it adds to complexity to have multiple local ranges and need to pick between them. Bob Hinden asked if this is different from multiple addresses... Erik said that choosing between multiple global addresses is less critical, because if you pick the wrong one it is less efficient but works. With local addresses if the application picks the wrong one, it may not work. Ralph Droms pointed out that any application of scoped addressing may cause problems with address selection. Also, heard a lot of requirements, all followed by "and therefore we need scoped addresses". Asked about scope of the WG -- are we chartered to work on PI addresses? Margaret -- we need a charter update to include this work, but the charter won't include working on a portable addressing scheme for the Internet. That work is happening elsewhere -- IAB, multi6. Rob Austein indicated that the requirement level is too low... Requirement isn't local addresses, it is that we need a way for a printer to communicate on the local network without being accessible from the outside world? Brian Haberman: On question of whether we should have global<>local communication, need to remember that applications should not have to be aware of the scope of these addresses. So, that may have implications for whether of not we allow global<>local communications. Brian supports working on a combined document, because it would be good to have one complete requirements document in front of us, so that we could work on it. Marc Blanchet thinks that globally-routable, provider-independent, portable addressing is important, so we should work on it here. Concerned that we can't work on it. Margaret agreed that this is important, but not that it should be pursued in the IPv6 WG. Bob Hinden pointed out that there is still a big research aspect to the question of portable global addressing. This is very complex, and includes conflicting requirements. Doesn't believe that this will happen soon and that the IPv6 w.g. should not defer this work until or if a solution to this problem is developed. Question for the authors about combining the drafts. Are the authors in favor? Tony and Juha (speaking for Fred who previously confirmed by email) both indicated that they do want to do this. They were already working on it, but didn't get it done before meeting. Tim Chown, would like to use local addresses on networks that will be bigger than /48. Tony: really more of a discussion for the implementation section. Christian Huitema -- missing requirement. You need to have different ranges of filtering in an enterprise network. There is no such thing as a site. Some things will be local to a division, some to a site, some to the company, etc. The solution needs to accommodate wide ranges of topologies. The filtering requirement cannot be met by the addressing structure alone. Erik Nordmark pointed out that there will be a problem if the local addresses require apps changes, because it will take a long time to get consensus and deploy. Pointed out that this group can identify requirements and needs for portable addressing and send those to the IAB and IESG. Don't have to do the work here. People think that they need an RFC1918 replacement in IPv6 -- perhaps not a technical requirement, but that doesn't mean it is unimportant. Alain Durand has a problem with the logic that we need to have requirements for local addresses, so we need to have local addresses because they meet the requirements. Local addresses are just one possible solution. Portable addresses are another solution. Each has benefits and complexities. Thinks that this will cause problems with registries. Thomas pointed out that we don't declare registry issues out-of-scope. We need to figure out what we need and work with the registries to do it. Jordi Palet is concerned about NAT with IPv6. Whether or not we go with this type of decision, we need to make it very clear that vendors must not implement NAT in IPv6. Asked if group is interested in seeing these documents combined, so that we can work towards a work item in this area. Strong consensus that it would be worthwhile to combine these documents and work forward from here. CONSENSUS: Combine current local addressing requirements documents and work forward from here. Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses -- Bob Hinden ------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt (See slides) James Kempf likes this proposal. But, what happens when these leak into the Internet? Bob recommends that there should be a /7 filter to keep them from leaking, but nothing bad happens when they leak. Not ambiguous like site-local, so nothing bad happens. Brian Haberman pointed out that, unlike net 10 addresses, you can tell who has this allocation, so you can trace them back. Itojun pointed out that you will need to run two-faced DNS to respond with local addresses internally, but not externally. Thomas Narten responded that that isn't necessarily true. Depending on what address selection rules we have, this may work fine. Rob agreed with Thomas and said that this is just like the firewall case. Itojun pointed out that he doesn't want to see IPv6 NAT. Marc Blanchet wanted to know if the application people have reviewed this proposal. Marc thinks that this is a very good proposal, a "much better site-local", but wants to know if if addresses concerns of applications people. Alain Durand indicated that leaking local addresses in DNS will cause problems with delays, etc. Margaret pointed out that this may depend on address selection rules. Erik Nordmark indicated that there is a difference between leaking local addresses in the DNS for nodes that _only_ have a local address, because you can't reach them anyway. But, leaking locals for nodes that do have globals could cause problems, especially for UDP apps. Christian Huitema suggested changing the address selection rules to require a better match than 7-bits to ?? Hesham indicated that we will need some type of split-DNS for these addresses. Tim Chown commented on several situations where having local connections inter-connected could be complex. Bob suggested that at some size, a network is much better off getting a sufficient number of global addresses. Comment that we should prefer non-global addresses in default address selection, because they are more stable. Otherwise, you need magic in the resolver that determines which non- global addresses are reachable. Rob Austein pointed out that if we have to treat these specially for address selection rules, the cost goes up. He also pointed out the need to keep local addresses local via split DNS, because "if we are going to lie, we should like consistently". Thomas mentioned that it would be good if these addresses would work with the current address selection rules. Bob agreed, and said that we also have the option (perhaps not a good one) of putting this in FECO::/10 for those rules. Tony Hain pointed out that we could include something about this in requirements document. Thomas agreed. Tony pointed out that you may want different default selection rules in different environments. Comment that we need some sort of ICMP error message if the address isn't reachable. If addresses are just black-holed an applications will keep using it with no indication that it isn't usable. Question on adopting as a WG document. Is it appropriate without requirements ready? Brian Carpenter pointed out that it is important enough to get this work done, so we should not wait until requirements are done to accept this. Christian agreed. Called the question: Should we accept this as a WG work item? Strong consensus to accept the document. CONSENSUS: Accept "Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses" as a working group item. Site-Local Deprecation Document Plan -- Christian Huitema --------------------------------------------------------- (See slides) Discussion of deprecation of FECO::/ prefix anycast addresses. Can we still use these? These could be used as reserved global addresses, because all sites are the same. Erik Nordmark asked clarifying question about whether these addresses would be used for finding local services (and be filtered at boundaries) or for finding global services (which would require global host routes). Pekka Savola thinks that we should deprecate the FECO::/ anycast addresses with the FECO::/ prefix. Margaret Wasserman suggested that the anycast addresses in the FCOO::/ could be a replacement. Christian said that he doesn't want to argue about solutions, just the requirement for replacements. Dave Thaler pointed out that the real issue is the ability to allocated hard-coded anycast addresses to reach services. Can't be computed based on addressing, needs to be completely hard-coded. Thomas Narten pointed out that we haven't fleshed out the anycast architecture well enough. Some things in the v6 spec and some things in the anycast document are at odds with each other. Brian Carpenter would like to generalize the question. Is it a requirement that this document says something in particular with backwards compatibility with legacy applications using FECO::/. Erik wants to make sure that the concern about applications needing to deal with multiple addresses as part of this document. Christian indicated that the specific site-local problem is not with applications handling multiple addresses, but is specifically about applications handling scope. Ralph Droms think that we need to be clear about what the document is documenting. Christian indicated that it is documenting the FECO::/10 prefix. Ralph wants to make sure that, when we come around again, we aren't in the same place we were before we deprecated these addresses. Rob Austein thinks that the address selection rules should be discussed as a source of complexity and something that should be evaluated for future solutions. CONSENSUS: Consensus of the group to adopt the first version Site-Local Deprecation Document Plan document as a working group item. --------------------------------- Meeting Adjourned --------------------------------- --=====================_106663243==_-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 16:53:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71NUu06007138; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h71NUatW007137; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h71NTX06007130 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71NQxUu005804 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71NQmcI020429 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:26:47 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNYeIBFyBdTxsGrQh6GWs9SRwEWmQACTLFg From: "Michel Py" To: "Steven M. Bellovin" , "Tony Hain" Cc: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h71NTm06007131 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Steve, > Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > Tony -- to make life easier for all concerned, please state > explicitly what recourse you're asking for from the IESG. > As things stand now, even if we agreed with everything you say, > we wouldn't know exactly what you want us to do. IMHO the ultimate goal is to handle the deprecation situation by having the IESG make a decision that will lead the ipv6 WG into taking the appropriate path towards it. IMHO, this path is: 1. The WG will publish a document describing the requirements to replace site-local addresses. 2. The WG will publish one and possibly/preferably more than one document(s) describing solutions to replace site-locals that meet the requirements (it could be a good idea to merge close-enough drafts at some point). 3. The WG will publish a deprecation proposal document. This document will mostly propose to deprecate existing site-locals and develop one of solutions issued from 2. THEN, having provided enough time to review the deprecation proposal and the merits of the proposed replacement(s) the WG will be able to make an educated decision whether or not deprecating site-locals in appropriate (one criteria being that the proposed replacement has less problems than the current site-locals), and if yes which one(s) of the proposed replacement(s) is to be developed. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 1 17:02:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7202RCM009911; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7202RqX009906; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM [129.148.13.40]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7202ICM009852 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strat.East.Sun.COM (strat.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.103]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h71NxftK017659; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from strat (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by strat.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h71NxfP1021644; Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308012359.h71NxfP1021644@strat.East.Sun.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Robert Elz cc: Erik Nordmark , samita.chakrabarti@Sun.COM, Julien.Laganier@Sun.COM, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Sebastien Roy Subject: Re: comments on address selection API In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Elz of "Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:37:57 +0700." <11613.1059658677@munnari.OZ.AU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:59:41 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > | My initial though when I > | saw these preferences was that we should be giving individuals running > | applications the control, not individuals writing applications. kre@munnari.OZ.AU wrote: > There's no way to avoid that. The user (individual running the > application) can only ever express as much control as the application > allows That's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all applications need to be made aware of the specific rules used in destination address ordering. > - burying > things in libraries only makes it more difficult for the application to > override, it doesn't prevent it (even to the extent of the application > ignoring the standard library routines, and doing things its own way if > the libraries insist on doing things the application doesn't like). That's true, applications can always be written to spite the user's preferences. Like you say down below, I'd choose not to use such broken applications. I'm not trying to suggest that we somehow devise a way to prevent applications from making preferences. I'm suggesting that there needs to be a way to let users make their preferences, and that I don't really see why applications would want to make preferences in these two cases. I don't strongly disagree with your point of view, I just don't really see the need for this part of the API as it's written. > > You seem to want to legislate in favour of intelligently written > applications that do things in wise and meaningful fashions What do you mean by that? I can't deny that I don't want idiotically written applications that do things in stupid and meaningless fashions... ;-) > - that > doesn't work at this level, all that can ever be done is to attempt > to get the users to prefer to use applications that work in ways > that make sense to them. I can't disagree with that. > > Allowing applications to set flags to control the address choices from > the library routines seems sensible to me - this doesn't mean that this > needs to be the only input to the address selection choice that an > implementation provides. And I would hope that if this API is implemented as currently written, then there would be some way of overriding the application's default. > > And yes, usually you do want the application to pick what is the best > default for it I can understand that in the context of temporary addresses, as those were devised with specific applications in mind. I don't see why one application would want to default to using a tunnel interface while another would default to using a native interface (for example). Similarly, I don't see why one application would default to using a global address while another would default to using a site-local for the same destination. I guess I don't see what problems those applications would be trying to solve by using those conflicting defaults. > - "environmental controls" are usually much too crude > a control for this purpose - that is, it isn't the case that every > application should behave the same, for connections from host A to host B > for some applications one address choice is better than another, for > other applications the answer comes out exactly the other way around. Perhaps, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a real-world scenario (or dreaming up a non real-world scenario) where that would be the case with these two destination address ordering rules. > > When I, the user, know better, I'm going to want a way to override the > application's preference - and if the application doesn't provide that, > I'll either fix it, if I can, or perhaps work around it (add new names > in the DNS that only provide a subset of addresses...) or if none of > those is possible, just avoid using the application concerned. I would do the same if I were in that situation. I would also find it awkward that every application would each need their own separate user interfaces to toggle these preferences. -Seb -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 2 10:51:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h72HpGCM000188; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h72HpGi5000187; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h72Hp6CM000122 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h72HmWUu024853 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu (newdev.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.212]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h72HmRBj021253 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h72Hlu9n019733; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.12.9/8.12.2/Submit) id h72HltUV019732; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:47:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Bradner Message-Id: <200308021747.h72HltUV019732@newdev.harvard.edu> To: iesg@ietf.org, kre@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Cc: alh-ietf@tndh.net, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <11093.1059747790@munnari.OZ.AU> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk fwiw - I fully agree with kre (that has happened before in case anyone wondered) Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 3 09:41:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h73Gf3CM013212; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h73Gf3cE013205; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h73GevCM013174 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h73GcNUu016344 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h73GcIcI000415 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.19]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA27503; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030803114743.066ddbf8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:33:08 -0400 To: Robert Elz From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [Note: This message is being sent in my role as an IPv6 WG chair. I have already recused myself from IESG consideration of Tony Hain's appeal and will not participate in this discussion as an Internet AD.] Hi Robert, I'd like to respond to a few of the things that you mentioned in your message: At 09:23 PM 8/1/2003 +0700, Robert Elz wrote: >First, RFC2418 (aka BCP 25) (WG procedures) requires... > > For coordinated, structured WG interactions, the Chair(s) MUST > publish a draft agenda well in advance of the actual session. > >The agenda of the March 2003 ipv6 WG meeting was sent to the mailing >list on March 14. The WG meetings were on March 17 & 20. "Well >in advance". Hmmm... An initial draft agenda, which did list the local addressing topic, was sent to the mailing list on March 3rd. The final agenda was posted on March 14th. >Then > > The minutes shall > be submitted in printable ASCII text for publication in the IETF > Proceedings, and for posting in the IETF Directories and are to be > sent to: minutes@ietf.org > >As best I can tell, no minutes have been submitted for that meeting >(even though the next meeting has already been completed). Draft >minutes were sent to the mailing list (March 28), but nothing further >seems to have been done. They certainly don't appear in the normal >IETF places for WG meeting minutes (as for example, the November 2002 >minutes do). Due to a clerical error on our part, the minutes were not submitted to the secretariat on time. However, they were sent to the mailing list (on March 28th, as you indicate) and there were no comments indicating errors or omissions. So, everyone on the mailing list has had access to the minutes since March 28th (less than two weeks after the meeting). Although the minutes were submitted to the secretariat late, they were submitted. We are not sure why they have not been posted to the proceedings web page. This is currently being investigated. >Then, again from rfc2418: > > In determining the balance, the WG must ensure that > its process does not serve to exclude contribution by email-only > participants. Decisions reached during a face-to-face meeting about > topics or issues which have not been discussed on the mailing list, > or are significantly different from previously arrived mailing list > consensus MUST be reviewed on the mailing list. > >First from that note, "reviewed" on the mailing list, not "continued >there". RFC2418 also says: In the case where a consensus which has been reached during a face-to-face meeting is being verified on a mailing list the people who were in the meeting and expressed agreement must be taken into account. If there were 100 people in a meeting and only a few people on the mailing list disagree with the consensus of the meeting then the consensus should be seen as being verified. So, RFC 2418 does not indicate that the entire consensus call should be re-done on the mailing list. In fact, it explicitly states that the number of people involved in the face-to-face consensus "must be taken into account" in the final determination. >Before we get to that though, there's the issue of whether the "deprecate >site local" was a new issue, or one that had been dragging along forever. The concept of deprecating site-local addressing had been under discussion for some time. In particular, removing site-local addresses from the architecture was discussed as an option at the IPv6 WG meeting in Atlanta in November 2002, and proposed as an alternative in an I-D that I published in December 2002. So, this was certainly not a new topic of discussion for anyone who had been following the IPv6 WG since November 2002. In Atlanta, there was consensus in the WG to pursue a course of action that involved limiting the use of site-local addressing in some way. This course was pursued for a few months, with a few different proposals circulated for how to limit the use of site-local addressing. Bob and I presented a summary/comparison of these proposals in SF, and we honestly believed that the WG would choose between those proposals. To our surprise, however, the consensus of those attending the meeting in San Francisco was that all of the proposals to limit the use of site-locals still had substantial problems. So, we reached consensus to move in the direction of deprecating site-local unicast addressing, and that is the course that we are pursuing now. > This email asks those that were NOT present at the Thursday IPv6 > meeting in SF to express their opinions on a question that was > asked of the room. If you expressed an opinion on this issue in > SF you can skip this message; in any case you MUST NOT respond to > this query. > >That is, no-one was permitted to have had a change of mind. This is incorrect. One person did publicly change his mind (David Borman, in a message sent to the list on April 4th), and this was publicly acknowledged and supported in mail sent by me on April 5th. No one else indicated a desire to change his/her mind. >One may >speculate as to why this "unusual" approach was taken, and perhaps >reach the conclusion that having achieved a large majority (reported in >the draft minutes as 102 to 20) in favour of the "deprecate site local" >decision, they didn't want to risk any of that majority being dropped >away, or any of the people who supported it, not really being on the >ipv6 list, and so not normally a part of the working group or its >decision making process (which isn't to say anyone should be excluded, >anyone can join the list, and if, knowing the issue was to be discussed >there, they had a strong opinion upon it, anyone could have joined the >list to express that opinion). Please see the RFC 2418 text quoted above. RFC 2418 _requires_ that the number of people who reached consensus in the meeting room must be taken into account when the consensus is reviewed on the list. >Further, even that assumes that taking votes is the way the IETF >operates. That would not often be regarded as a normal way to do >things. Normally, WGs take "straw polls" to determine whether >just about everyone agrees with a point, or disagrees, or whether >there's a serious split. Here, had this been regarded as a straw >poll, then even with 155 to 56 numbers, "serious split" and "no consensus" >would have been the only reasonable result. It is strange that you argue both that: (1) Consensus is not determined by voting or numbers. -AND- (2) These numbers aren't good enough to constitute consensus. The straw poll results were not the only thing that the WG chairs considered in determining WG consensus on this issue, We considered the hundreds of e-mail messages that had been generated on the IPv6 mailing list regarding this subject over several months, we considered the comments and discussion on this topic from the face-to-face IPv6 WG meeting, and we also considered the comments that people made regarding why they indicated YES or NO in response to our straw poll. Based on all of this input, we determined that (in our best judgement) there was a consensus of the IPv6 WG to pursue a specific course of action. This course of action involves doing multiple things in parallel that will eventually result in deprecating site-local unicast addressing and replacing it with a non-ambiguous local addressing scheme (not necessarily in that order). We believe that we correctly determined the consensus of the WG, because very few people have objected to our consensus statement since it was published on April 9th. Furthermore, the WG seems to be productively engaged in carrying out the action plan that we indicated in our consensus e-mail. I won't argue that we followed every process in RFC 2418 to perfection, and we should strive to do better in the future, especially regarding the timeliness of our agenda and minutes. But, I do not believe that our minor process violations materially affected the ability of anyone who was involved in the IPv6 WG in March and April of 2003 (via email and/or in-person) to participate in this discussion, understand what was going on, or voice his/her opinion on this issue. And, I believe that we took all of those opinions, regardless of how they were voiced, into consideration as part of our consensus determination. >This may not seem very important, as there is no apparent outcome from >this decision. The outcome from this decision is that our editors are currently updating WG documents in accordance with the direction that was agreed upon by the WG. In my opinion, it does require WG consensus to make a major change to a WG work item, such as the scoped address architecture. >What is important though is that the WG not be railroaded >into agreeing to a later document (which is rumoured to be going to be >written one day) with the argument that the WG already reached consensus >that this be done, and that no re-opening of that issue will be permitted >(which is what I anticipate may happen). That is, if this planned >document ever appears, the only discussion allowed may be whether or >not it says the right things to implement the supposed consensus, and not >whether or not the document itself is a good thing to publish. That >cannot be allowed to happen, and certainly not based upon the flawed >processes in this particular instance. I agree. This cannot be allowed to happen, and there is no intention of handling the situation this way. We have _repeatedly_ indicated that the March/April decision was only about the general course of action that the we would pursue. All documents produced as part of this course of action will be subject to discussion by the WG, and they will go through WG last call, etc. In keeping with normal IETF processes, these documents won't be sent to the IESG unless they represent the consensus of the WG at that time. >Finally, while not strictly relevant to the current question, you may >also wish to know that on April 10 (the day after the decision was >announced), I sent a message to each of the WG chairs (and copied to the >WG mailing list - Message-id: <11997.1049967846@munnari.OZ.AU>) in which >I asked ... > > You can expect an appeal against the decision that there is rough > consensus here. What there is, is a debate. You can treat this > message as an official request to the WG chairs that they reconsider > the stated position. That's the first step ... > >The WG chairs did not bother to reply to any of the issues raised in >that message. Or at least, they have not so far. I did reply to this message, also on April 10th, just a few hours after you sent it. A multi-person discussion ensued, and I tried to be responsive to the points raised in that discussion. It wasn't my intention to be non-responsive, and I am sorry if you found my response inadequate. It is my hope that we can re-focus this discussion on making the right technical decisions within the IPv6 WG moving forward. I would encourage you to read the current documents, which include: - The latest scoped address architecture (currently a WG I-D) - Bob Hinden's local addressing proposal (accepted as a WG I-D, but not republished yet) - The upcoming updates to the local addressing requirements, authored by Fred Templin and Tony Hain (should be available very soon). Your technical input on these documents would be very welcome. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 05:07:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74C7OCM011151; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 05:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74C7OgA011150; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 05:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74C7LCM011143 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 05:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74C4jUu027006 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 05:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ratree.psu.ac.th ([202.12.73.3]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74C4TGd026586 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 06:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from delta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (delta.coe.psu.ac.th [172.30.0.98]) by ratree.psu.ac.th (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h74C2N714119; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:02:32 +0700 (ICT) Received: from munnari.OZ.AU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by delta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h74C22029344; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:02:04 +0700 (ICT) From: Robert Elz To: Margaret Wasserman cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030803114743.066ddbf8@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030803114743.066ddbf8@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:02:02 +0700 Message-ID: <8387.1059998522@munnari.OZ.AU> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:33:08 -0400 From: Margaret Wasserman Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030803114743.066ddbf8@mail.windriver.com> I am not planning on debating these issues here, again, so just this one message... | An initial draft agenda, which did list the local addressing | topic, was sent to the mailing list on March 3rd. The final | agenda was posted on March 14th. The March 3 message you refer to was, I assume, the "Draft Agenda Announcement", which I would interpret as a call for agenda items. It certainly was nothing even close to meeting the requirements for an agenda in rfc2418. So while I appreciate the lengths to which you're willing to go to have it appear that the "well in advance" rule was met, I don't think that message is going to help you. Even if it did, I doubt that even Mar 3 could be considered as "well in advance" - that was just 2 weeks before the IETF - the same day as (final) I-D submissions ended (-00 submissions had already been closed for a week). The idea of posting the agenda in advance is to give people a chance to decide whether or not they need to attend the meeting. And of course, this assumes that the topics that are to be decided are announced in the agenda. The Mar 3 message just said ... - Site-Local Usage o Impact of Site-Local draft o Moderate Use Case draft which doesn't mention that a question to deprecate site local addresses would be even considered possible. | | RFC2418 also says: | | In the case where a consensus which has been reached during a | face-to-face meeting is being verified on a mailing list the Yes. There are two aspects to this. First, there are two different types of face to face meeting discussion. One is where an issue has been debated on the list, with no consensus being reached, so the WG decides to discuss this more at an IETF, and try and work out the differences (announcing that this is to happen in the agenda, with plenty of time for everyone who cares to decide to attend). If after that the meeting finds a solution to the problem, all that requires is verification on the list - to make sure that those who weren't able to attend don't have any particular problems. The other case is where something new (unforeseen) appears at a face to face meeting - there 2418 says "review" on the list. "review" and "verify" aren't the same thing. But, even if the section you quoted were relevant to the issue under discussion, note that ... | If there were 100 people in a meeting and | only a few people on the mailing list disagree with the consensus "only a few". There were way more than "a few" on the list who disagreed. IETF "rough consensus" has always been this way, a few objectors don't necessarily matter (though everyone's objection should be at least examined, even a single objector can find a fatal flaw sometimes), but lots of objections means there is no consensus. Further, while quoting 2418 back and forward, you might also want to look at ... Note that enough time should be given to the verification process for the mailing list readers to understand and consider any objections that may be raised on the list. The normal two week last-call period should be sufficient for this. That is, two weeks is probably long enough (but it is hinted that it might sometimes not be). One week? | The concept of deprecating site-local addressing had been under | discussion for some time. In particular, removing site-local | addresses from the architecture was discussed as an option at the | IPv6 WG meeting in Atlanta in November 2002, Hmm, in the minutes of that meeting, I see that mentioned as an option in what appears like a question, or an answer to a question (those minutes are very confusing). I also see ... Margaret - The wg has agreed we don't want to remove them completely and that we don't want to document them completely So, it appears, in Nov 2002, at least, the WG hade decided not to remove site locals (if those minutes are to be believed anyway). Also ... Moore - [...] it appears to me that we have near consensus that it is OK to use site-local in disconnected networks. We also have near-consensus that it may be OK to use site-locals in restricted other uses. What's more, the results of the "vote" taken there, as it appears in the minutes was ... No consensus: ~30 Remove, ~51 Limited, ~57 Moderate, ~17 Full which as "no consensus" I certainly agree with (no surprise, as there were no real concrete proposals, just hand waving, as I understand it) but from that, only a very small fraction of the audience looked to support removing SL. | and proposed as an alternative in an I-D that I published in December | 2002. Yes, and in the 3rd version of that I-D (the -02 version) which was current as of the 56th IETF, that suggestion (which never actually went as far as to delete SL completely, it was the "limited use" proposal) had been moved from the body of the document to an appendix - in all respects appearing to be just stating your private opinion, which was apparently not gaining a lot of WG support. | So, this was certainly not a new topic of discussion for anyone who had | been following the IPv6 WG since November 2002. That people wanted to talk about how to handle SL addresses was abundantly clear. That there would be a serious proposal to remove them completely wasn't apparent in advance at all. You agree... | To our surprise, however, the consensus of those attending | the meeting in San Francisco was that all of the proposals to | limit the use of site-locals still had substantial problems. This was clearly something new. And that is exactly what 2418 says needs to be reviewed on the list. That is, face to face meetings cannot... | So, we reached consensus to move in the direction of deprecating | site-local unicast addressing, and that is the course that we | are pursuing now. The list needs to do that. | This is incorrect. One person did publicly change his mind (David | Borman, in a message sent to the list on April 4th), and this | was publicly acknowledged and supported in mail sent by me on | April 5th. No one else indicated a desire to change his/her mind. Yes, one was willing to violate the original stated rules, which were quite explicit that no-one who had expressed an opinion in the face to face meeting was allowed to talk again. Dave made it quite clear in his message that he wasn't sure that what he wanted to do was allowed. I can't even imagine just why the "don't send a message again" nonsense was in the original "consensus call" at all. | It is strange that you argue both that: | | (1) Consensus is not determined by voting or numbers. | | -AND- | | (2) These numbers aren't good enough to constitute | consensus. Not at all. We don't determine consensus by counting votes. However it is quite reasonable to ask for a straw poll to see just how many objections are really out there (as, as 2418 quite correctly points out, it is possible, sometimes, for just a small number of people to make lots of noise for or against something). What we don't do is decide "10 for, 6 against, carried".... | All documents produced as part of this course of action will | be subject to discussion by the WG, and they will go through | WG last call, etc. In keeping with normal IETF processes, | these documents won't be sent to the IESG unless they | represent the consensus of the WG at that time. Fine. In that case, why not just tell everyone that the SF+list "vote" is irrelevant for all purposes. Anyone can submit a new document any time, and have it considered by the WG. If there are new versions of any of these documents being written, they can be studied when they appear to see if they meet the overall demands of this group (and then eventually, of the IETF as a whole). Doing that would certainly end my (current) objections, and while I can't speak for Tony, it might well end his appeal as well. The only think I am currently concerned about is that the WG seems to be being pushed into making decisions that look as if they're binding, without having any concrete proposals to consider. That's a horrible way to attempt to make progress, and rarely gets anywhere. If the WG gets to make a reasoned decision based upon a fully constructed document, that's fine - but emotive "this is hard, lets get rid of it" type arguments, do no-one any good. | >The WG chairs did not bother to reply to any of the issues raised in | >that message. Or at least, they have not so far. | | I did reply to this message, also on April 10th, just a few hours | after you sent it. Yes, that indicates that you received and read the message. If that reply was meant to be a reply from the WG chairs (or a WG chair) rather than from a WG member (the people who are WG chairs get to be members of the WG as well of course), then it certainly didn't come across that way. In particular, neither that response, nor any of the following discussion, addressed any of the process issues at all, it was all technical (as in what should we actually do). That was fine as a discussion, but it certainly wasn't a (chair's) reply to my message. | It is my hope that we can re-focus this discussion on making the | right technical decisions within the IPv6 WG moving forward. That would be nice. One easy way to do that would be to simply tell the WG to act as if this "consensus" never happened, and to go back to writing drafts that actually solve problems, which can be considered on their individual or collective merits. Personally, I find it amusing, at least, that anyone can possibly have decided that SL addresses aren't the answer to any problems, when the problems haven't even been specified and agreed yet. It is true that if we didn't have SL addresses in the architecture, we wouldn't be adding them based upon current discussions - but we do, they're in use, they're documented in text books, and the RFCs. | I would encourage you to read the current documents, which include: Believe it or not, I have. | Your technical input on these documents would be very welcome. And on some of those I have made comments. No doubt in the future I may make more. kre -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 07:24:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74EOJCM019899; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74EOJUb019898; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74EOGCM019891 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74ELeV7006333 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74ELYxH005336 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:21:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h74EKs7o030866; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:20:56 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h74EKjnL279580; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:20:45 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA48606; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:20:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2E6BB9.6AFDA1D0@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:20:41 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal References: <200308021747.h72HltUV019732@newdev.harvard.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Scott Bradner wrote: > > fwiw - I fully agree with kre > (that has happened before in case anyone wondered) fwiw, I don't (and I have both agreed and disagreed with kre and sob in the past). I really think this is a distraction. Objectively, the WG is getting on with the three things that need to be done (requirements, an alternative proposal, and a draft deprecation document). To me there was manifestly rough consensus for this course of action: what else could "deprecate site local" mean to anyone who had been reading the mailing list for the previous several months? The details naturally depend on those three documents, which will have to be taken through due process. There was certainly not unanimity, or a detailed proposal, when choosing this course of action, but that's no ground for overruling the chairs. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 07:30:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74EUiCM020504; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74EUiu3020503; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74EUeCM020493 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74ES5Uu029673 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74ERxxH008977 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:27:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h74ERPch221452; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:27:25 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h74ERPDR261460; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:27:25 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25652; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:27:23 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2E6D4B.90754B06@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:27:23 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: AD response to Site-Local Appeal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel Py wrote: ... > An imperfect solution is better than no solution Not if it's more harmful than the absence of a solution, which may well be the case in this instance (although that is a matter of judgement). > and until we find a > better mouse trap it is harmful to deprecate the running code deployed > by multiple vendors that we currently have. Until we publish a revised addressing RFC, we haven't touched running code. It is just an internal decision inside the IETF. Personally, I'd advise customers who believe they need local addresses to continue using FEC0 until the addressing architecture is revised and products catch up. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 07:45:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74Ej0CM022066; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74Ej0Ge022065; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74EiuCM022058 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74EgLV7011912 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74EgFqY001237 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:42:15 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNalXrH+S1cvsLvTuqwLOuEpm9ZDgAANo3g From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74EivCM022059 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Personally, I'd advise customers who believe they need local > addresses to continue using FEC0 until the addressing > architecture is revised and products catch up. Customers don't like incertitude when designing networks and will delay IPv6 deployment until this is settled. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 08:44:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74FitCM027060; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74FisFQ027059; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74FinCM027034 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74FgDUu024624 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74Fg7qY007275 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNalXrH+S1cvsLvTuqwLOuEpm9ZDgAANo3gAAIgH6A= From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74FinCM027036 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Personally, I'd advise customers who believe they need local > addresses to continue using FEC0 until the addressing > architecture is revised and products catch up. Oops I goofed. s/incertitude/uncertainty Customers don't like uncertainty when designing networks and will delay IPv6 deployment until this is settled. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 08:45:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74FjICM027114; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74FjILg027113; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74FjECM027106 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74FgdUu024745 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74FgWcf008843 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 27-md50000000042.tmp for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:44:12 +0200 Message-ID: <025901c35a9e$fcda6690$8700000a@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: Subject: Fw: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:42:14 +0200 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:44:12 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Tony, Fred, In principle, I like the document, but I will much prefer that "private addresses" is not used, or at least is more clarified. I just try to avoid the relation of this "limited range" to the possibility of a NAT-like mechanism ... Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 4:14 PM Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Limited Range Addressing Requirements > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2003-8-4 > > The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use > unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or > requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > addressing that is limited to a bounded domain of applicability, or > range. This memo will discuss requirements for limited range > addressing. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 09:45:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74Gj8CM002039; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74Gj7FJ002036; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74GixCM001987 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74GgNV7024987 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fries.net (ns0.fries.net [66.210.106.26]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74GgHxH004051 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:42:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.fries.net (dxf7447i7nvwe6jvfn4l@localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74GcSN6029220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:38:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by shadow.fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h74GcR8b028916 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:38:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:38:27 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: site-local observations from the outside Message-ID: <20030804163827.GA31035@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: OpenBSD shadow.fries.net 3.3 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddf@acm.org toddfries@yahoo.com X-IM: toddfries@{AIM,Yahoo} 115268457@ICQ {toddfries,fr[1i]es}@*.irc.fries.net X-Jabber: todd@tipic.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk While I do not pretend to be the most versed in all of the IPv6 related RFC's, I am questioning what the goals of site-local or a similar replacement would be. Either you have link-local addresses, or you have global routable addresses. Any attempt at providing something that is site local suggests to me that you open the doors wide for something like NAT, which of course none of us wants. There is enough address space in the global table, why can we not have some sort of free reservation system (the free tunnel brokers would suggest it is economically feasible) for sites that want local addresses but do not intend on globally routing them. Should these sites want connectivity to the global internet, they would then get an allocation from their ISP as necessary. I expect I'm missing something, but perhaps not. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 "..in support of free software solutions." Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 10:01:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74H1YCM003469; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74H1YJv003462; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74H1SCM003436 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74GwqV7001980 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74Gwkcf000474 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 6-md50000000045.tmp for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:00:27 +0200 Message-ID: <03c001c35aa9$a41c0b20$8700000a@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: References: <20030804163827.GA31035@fries.net> Subject: Re: site-local observations from the outside Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:58:30 +0200 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:00:27 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Todd, I feel that we will have NAT-like situation in both cases (with/without site-local). If we don't provide a "site-local" kind of address space (I prefer to say limited-range), the people will use any global prefix, trying to filter it, and sometimes creating global routing problems/conflicts. Take a look at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt. Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: site-local observations from the outside > While I do not pretend to be the most versed in all of the IPv6 related RFC's, > I am questioning what the goals of site-local or a similar replacement > would be. > > Either you have link-local addresses, or you have global routable addresses. > > Any attempt at providing something that is site local suggests to me that > you open the doors wide for something like NAT, which of course none of > us wants. > > There is enough address space in the global table, why can we not have some > sort of free reservation system (the free tunnel brokers would suggest it > is economically feasible) for sites that want local addresses but do not > intend on globally routing them. > > Should these sites want connectivity to the global internet, they would then > get an allocation from their ISP as necessary. > > I expect I'm missing something, but perhaps not. > -- > Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net > > > Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 > http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 > "..in support of free software solutions." > > Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A > Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt > > (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 10:18:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74HIICM004957; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74HIHfk004956; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74HI9CM004905 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74HFXV7009873 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74HFScf011901 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id KAA26704 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h74HFQN07397; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:15:26 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308041715> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdfiK0V3; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:15:24 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804101306.02d31bd0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:14:21 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is the combined Tony Hain and Fred Templin requirements document. Many thinks to Tony and Fred for getting this out quickly. Bob >To: IETF-Announce: ; >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:14:30 -0400 > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : Limited Range Addressing Requirements > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2003-8-4 > >The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use >unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or >requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for >addressing that is limited to a bounded domain of applicability, or >range. This memo will discuss requirements for limited range >addressing. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <2003-8-4094157.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 10:49:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74HnHCM007649; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74HnGQG007648; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74HnDCM007641 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74HkbUu017302 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74HkUCD013458 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:46:30 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAg From: "Michel Py" To: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74HnDCM007642 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Todd, > Todd T. Fries wrote: > Either you have link-local addresses, or you have > global routable addresses. >From a transit provider point of view this is true, but not for the enterprise. There are lots of large networks that require private addresses and use RFC1918 today. Examples that have been discussed before are a large cruise ship and utility companies. Part of the requirements is that private addresses must not be routed on the public Internet. > Any attempt at providing something that is site local suggests > to me that you open the doors wide for something like NAT, > which of course none of us wants. There is some truth to this, but in the end avoiding NAT will not be achieved by not providing site-local addresses, as they are not required per say; people that need them will simply hijack an unused block in the middle of nowhere in the IPv6 address space, like they did for IPv4 pre RFC1597/RFC1918. A good hijack candidate is 2002:RFC:1918, for example. The only way to avoid NAT is to provide what NAT does, which is portable, globally unique, globally routable addresses, which we don't have today. > There is enough address space in the global table, Wrong. There is enough address space today, but the global routing table cannot handle billions of entries, at least not with BGP4+. It's not a matter of memory, it's a matter of stability. > why can we not have some sort of free reservation system > (the free tunnel brokers would suggest it is economically > feasible) for sites that want local addresses but do not > intend on globally routing them. jj has proposed something like this not too long ago. A draft soon? Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 11:10:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IAlCM009181; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74IAkKL009180; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IAhCM009173 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74I88Uu027165 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74I82cf016959 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA29583 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h74I82n29369; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:08:02 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308041808> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdgpvQMA; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:07:59 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [IPv6 working group chair hat on] I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. We now have a combined local addressing requirements document , a specific alternative to site-local addresses draft (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I think the choices are: A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the same time and making them include normative references to each other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local addresses. Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I hope that many of you will respond. Thanks, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 11:30:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IUnCM011095; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74IUn9I011094; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IUjCM011087 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74ISAV7011221 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74IS2f8003321 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 50-md50000000046.tmp for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:29:41 +0200 Message-ID: <045701c35ab6$1aeaa980$8700000a@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:27:43 +0200 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:29:41 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, I think option B is a balanced alternative, unless someone can open my eyes about any cons on this one. Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hinden" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 8:06 PM Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative to > site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 11:36:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IaHCM011256; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74IaGpB011255; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74Ia6CM011245 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74IXUV7013941 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74IXOxH018464 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:33:22 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: , Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:33:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01f801c35ab6$dd6b4b90$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <8387.1059998522@munnari.OZ.AU> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74Ia9CM011247 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk kre wrote: > .... > | All documents produced as part of this course of action will > | be subject to discussion by the WG, and they will go through > | WG last call, etc. In keeping with normal IETF processes, > | these documents won't be sent to the IESG unless they > | represent the consensus of the WG at that time. > > Fine. In that case, why not just tell everyone that the SF+list > "vote" is irrelevant for all purposes. Anyone can submit a new > document any time, and have it considered by the WG. If there > are new versions of any of these documents being written, > they can be studied when they appear to see if they meet the > overall demands of this group (and then eventually, of the > IETF as a whole). > > Doing that would certainly end my (current) objections, and > while I can't speak for Tony, it might well end his appeal as well. I am looking to have the declaration of consensus repealed. It doesn't matter if that is done voluntarily by the chair's, or external directive. We can't allow chairs to be declaring consensus when no one, including the chair, knows the meaning of the question. Explicitly acknowledging that there would be multiple meanings for yes as well as no, is not the way to ask a valid question. Allowing the declaration to stand is handing the chair a blank-check to tell the WG what it agreed to. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 11:44:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IiQCM012587; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74IiQLP012586; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IiLCM012567 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74IfkV7019284 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74IfexH023727 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:41:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:41:39 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:41:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01f901c35ab8$055bcb10$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Given the requirements from edge network managers I have talked to, I would prefer C, but could live with B. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:07 AM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the > working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > relate to the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. > I think it is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not > rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific > alternative to > site-local addresses draft > > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and > will soon have a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being > deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline > discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed > through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the > working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an > alternative solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working > group has made it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should > proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having > an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on > an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an > alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I > outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 11:56:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IueCM014051; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74IudFG014049; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74IuaCM014039 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74Is0V7024666 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74IrtCD016704 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:53:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h74Irrtp024376 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (sjc-vpn3-38.cisco.com [10.21.64.38]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.3-GR) with ESMTP id ABG05985; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804144928.042093f0@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:53:47 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk My understanding of the WG discussion is that deprecation of site-local addresses was discussed and consensus was reached independent of the availability of any alternative solution. Therefore, based on what I understand to be WG consensus, A is the appropriate way to proceed. That's not to say the WG can't change its collective consensus at this point. But I don't think the previous discussion of deprecation was in any way dependent on devising an alternative solution. - Ralph At 11:06 AM 8/4/2003 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 12:19:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74JJQCM015364; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74JJQXR015363; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74JJMCM015356 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74JGkUu026126 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74JGeea004318 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:16:40 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNatBp93RjyESTsTfu8enVJo9LGHAABwx5A From: "Michel Py" To: "Bob Hinden" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74JJNCM015357 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob, > Bob Hinden wrote: > Please respond to the list with your preference I would prefer C. "Rough consensus and running code". Possibly I could live with B, but it greatly depends on how difficult the new solution is to implement. If everyone agrees that implementing the new solution is a no-brainer, then B would be fine. However, if the new solution requires significant coding that many people don't feel too good about it, C is required. We don't want to deprecate for a solution that looked good on paper but proved impossible to implement and be left with zip. I have trouble understanding why the issues that applied to site-locals would not apply as well to the new solution until I have seen the new solution. IMHO the choice between B and C is premature until we have a clearer view of the alternatives. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 12:55:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74JtBCM018573; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74JtBYN018572; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74Jt8CM018565 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74JqWUu009376 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74JqPCD011539 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18288; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308041952.PAA18288@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk |C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, |standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a |deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the |alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local |addresses. | |Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means |publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. | |Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an |alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I |hope that many of you will respond. I vote for C. Given the disagreement on the "legitimate" uses of site local addresses (and scoped addressing in general) it will be difficult to be sure that a replacement actually solves all the problems that everyone concerned expected site-locals to solve, and does so in a way that is not prohibitively difficult/expensive to deploy. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 14:07:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74L7KCM025019; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74L7KR8025018; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74L7GCM025011 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74L4eUu010253 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74L4Yea013387 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 59-md50000000048.tmp for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:06:13 +0200 Message-ID: <057201c35acb$f9299a20$8700000a@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: References: Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:04:03 +0200 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:06:13 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Michel, I see your point, but my feeling is that we can only go to the last step (of the IETF process) IF it make sense (running code, and then it means no-brainer), that means that B is fine, but for the same reason, I can live with C (in theory, B and C are then the same solution) ;-). Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Py" To: "Bob Hinden" ; Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:16 PM Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > Bob, > > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > Please respond to the list with your preference > > I would prefer C. "Rough consensus and running code". Possibly I could > live with B, but it greatly depends on how difficult the new solution is > to implement. If everyone agrees that implementing the new solution is a > no-brainer, then B would be fine. > > However, if the new solution requires significant coding that many > people don't feel too good about it, C is required. We don't want to > deprecate for a solution that looked good on paper but proved impossible > to implement and be left with zip. > > I have trouble understanding why the issues that applied to site-locals > would not apply as well to the new solution until I have seen the new > solution. > > IMHO the choice between B and C is premature until we have a clearer > view of the alternatives. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 14:15:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LFECM025712; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74LFEtg025711; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LF4CM025657 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74LCSUu013981 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74LCNxH024403 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:12:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ400HJG5KNOV@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:12:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ400BZV5KLB3@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:12:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:12:21 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net Message-id: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative > to site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > reasonable alternative. I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and is mentioned in the minutes, the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it is based on a flawed logic. We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg realized that there were a number of significant issues that outweighed the reported benefits, so there is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were having a role that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated addresses. Fine again. Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we need 'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by one of its main author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would be fulfilled by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are independent from ISPs. So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it is the same issue) to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so without clearly understanding the impact of those "ranged" addresses on the architecture and the current implementation is a flawed process. In particular, we need to understand the impact on address selection, and the layer violation that would be created by coupling DNS views & routing. IMHO, what need to happen is the following: -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing addresses with different ranges. -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with getting addresses than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses are plentiful, we should have easy access to them! What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non issue for me. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 14:40:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LeqCM027800; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74Leqpw027799; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LenCM027792 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74LcDV7008904 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74Lc7xH010451 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:38:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18831; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:38:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308042138.RAA18831@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk (Following up to my own message...) |I vote for C. Given the disagreement on the "legitimate" uses of site local |addresses (and scoped addressing in general) it will be difficult to be sure |that a replacement actually solves all the problems that everyone concerned |expected site-locals to solve, and does so in a way that is not prohibitively |difficult/expensive to deploy. It occurs to me that if we are going to start actually counting again (picking the option with the most votes) the options offered will tend to skew the result towards A by splitting the site-local support between B & C. Therefore I wish to cast my vote against A more than for C... Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 14:41:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LfWCM027921; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74LfT7d027920; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74LfHCM027876 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74LcgUu024724 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74LcZcf002177 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h74LcXLH012837; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGT16526; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id OAA17595; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16174.53848.502642.367351@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:38:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Alain Durand Cc: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk FWIW, I wasn't there but I agree with Alain. I've never seen any compelling evidence that scope qua scope is what people actually need. And scope brings any number of architectural questions to the fore. I'd be much, much more comfortable having an up/down pronouncement on whether PI addressing is feasible before we march down this road. There are very wide implications of both and I think there's a tremendous amount of discomfort with the possibility that scope will result in a back door for NAT's to invade ipv6. I don't think that anybody wants that. Before we head that direction, I'd like to see PI addressing, in an RFC preferrably, pronounced a dead end. Mike Alain Durand writes: > > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > > , a specific alternative > > to site-local addresses draft > > (accepted as a working > > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > > reasonable alternative. > > I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and is mentioned in > the minutes, > the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it is based on a > flawed logic. > > We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg realized that > there were > a number of significant issues that outweighed the reported benefits, so > there > is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. > > Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were having a role > that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated addresses. Fine again. > > Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we need > 'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by one > of its main > author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would be > fulfilled > by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that > explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those > requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are > independent from ISPs. > > So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it is the same > issue) > to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so without clearly > understanding the impact of those "ranged" addresses on the architecture > and the current implementation is a flawed process. > In particular, we need to understand the impact on address selection, > and the layer violation that would be created by coupling DNS views & > routing. > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. > > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with getting > addresses > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses are plentiful, > we should have easy access to them! > > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non issue for me. > > - Alain. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 15:04:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74M4xCM000034; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74M4x2j000033; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74M4sCM000015 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74M2IUu004470 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74M2Dcf018805 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0oFYU4ZNoGoETla+tro6Rmt+NwAAVyyQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Dan Lanciani" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74M4sCM000016 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Dan Lanciani wrote: > It occurs to me that if we are going to start actually > counting again (picking the option with the most votes) > the options offered will tend to skew the result towards > A by splitting the site-local support between B & C. > Therefore I wish to cast my vote against A more than > for C... Alike other opinion polls, the way the question is asked can make a big difference indeed. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 15:14:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74ME6CM000430; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74ME6Hh000429; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74ME1CM000419 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74MBQUu008591 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fries.net (ns0.fries.net [66.210.106.26]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74MBGCD013335 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:11:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.fries.net (cjdwnqd6hb46btctqww1@localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74M72N6026988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:07:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by shadow.fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h74M71Ir002951; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:07:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:07:01 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Michael Thomas Cc: Alain Durand , Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030804220701.GB31035@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <16174.53848.502642.367351@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16174.53848.502642.367351@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: OpenBSD shadow.fries.net 3.3 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddf@acm.org toddfries@yahoo.com X-IM: toddfries@{AIM,Yahoo} 115268457@ICQ {toddfries,fr[1i]es}@*.irc.fries.net X-Jabber: todd@tipic.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I'd like to third this motion. Provider independent addressing is the number one gripe of a few people I know. As things currently read, you're either an ISP, an infrastructure site, or you do not get to multihome. Tell that to Dow Jones. They can rely on one upstream isp, or get multiple allocations, which in effect relies on round robin dns in the event one upstream is down. Seriously. I have done some research today, and watched the entire April IETF mpg as pointed out a few posts earlier. I feel there is definately a feeling that people will need their own unique provider independent address space, whether that be ultimately defined as site local or provider independent. I know this makes some headaches for the routing table, but in my opinion, it is far easier to deal with a large number of routes than a large number of NAT's. What requirement of site-local does provider independent addressing not provide? (Personally, I feel that if a company needs `private addresses' for research and such, they can do so in an un-allocated range knowing full and well they are operating in private and will re-number when going public and allocating their public addresses anyway.) Thanks, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 "..in support of free software solutions." Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) Penned by Michael Thomas on Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 02:38:32PM -0700, we have: | | FWIW, I wasn't there but I agree with Alain. I've | never seen any compelling evidence that scope qua | scope is what people actually need. And scope | brings any number of architectural questions to | the fore. I'd be much, much more comfortable | having an up/down pronouncement on whether PI | addressing is feasible before we march down this | road. There are very wide implications of both and | I think there's a tremendous amount of discomfort | with the possibility that scope will result in a | back door for NAT's to invade ipv6. I don't think | that anybody wants that. Before we head that | direction, I'd like to see PI addressing, in an | RFC preferrably, pronounced a dead end. | | Mike | | Alain Durand writes: | > | > | > Bob Hinden wrote: | > | > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] | > > | > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing | > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working | > > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly | > > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to | > > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how | > > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this | > > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. | > > | > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document | > > , a specific alternative | > > to site-local addresses draft | > > (accepted as a working | > > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing | > > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal | > > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna | > > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the | > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. | > > | > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working | > > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their | > > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. | > > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an | > > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is | > > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth | > > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I | > > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a | > > reasonable alternative. | > | > I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and is mentioned in | > the minutes, | > the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it is based on a | > flawed logic. | > | > We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg realized that | > there were | > a number of significant issues that outweighed the reported benefits, so | > there | > is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. | > | > Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were having a role | > that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated addresses. Fine again. | > | > Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we need | > 'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by one | > of its main | > author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would be | > fulfilled | > by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that | > explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those | > requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are | > independent from ISPs. | > | > So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it is the same | > issue) | > to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so without clearly | > understanding the impact of those "ranged" addresses on the architecture | > and the current implementation is a flawed process. | > In particular, we need to understand the impact on address selection, | > and the layer violation that would be created by coupling DNS views & | > routing. | > | > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: | > | > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing | > addresses with different ranges. | > | > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with getting | > addresses | > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be | > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path | > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses are plentiful, | > we should have easy access to them! | > | > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non issue for me. | > | > - Alain. | > | > | > -------------------------------------------------------------------- | > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List | > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng | > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng | > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com | > -------------------------------------------------------------------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List | IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng | FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng | Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com | -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 15:16:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MGlCM000918; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74MGlq5000917; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MGiCM000910 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74ME7Uu009507 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74ME1f8008192 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:01 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNazP2ovDF8qFQ2Raq0ZgwzyeCRqwAA120Q From: "Michel Py" To: "Jordi Palet Martinez" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74MGiCM000911 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jordi, > Jordi wrote: > I see your point, but my feeling is that we can only go to > the last step (of the IETF process) IF it make sense (running > code, and then it means no-brainer), that means that B is > fine, but for the same reason, I can live with C (in theory, > B and C are then the same solution) ;-). I see your point too; however, The difference between B and C is: - with B, if the solution proves impossible to develop, we have a failure. - with C, if the solution proves possible to develop, we have wasted time. As many things, it's a matter of risk management, speed with a risk or slowness without one. The reason I like C better is because I have the feeling that if there was a no-brainer solution that would make B worth the risk someone would have invented it a long time ago. If we were not able to fix site-locals I wonder where the silver bullet to replace them is. As Tony pointed out, design engineers for large networks do not design on vaporware. If I can't simulate a solution on a 20-router lab, it ain't going in my network design and I stick with site-locals. Which also means that once the design goes to large-scale deployment there is no way back for at least 5 years, which in turn means that router vendor "C" (yes, the one you are thinking about) is going to keep supporting site-locals because they want to keep my business. The question is, do we want to define standards or to we want to encourage the development of proprietary standards? For the record, I use ISL, EIGRP and HSRP; I won't have a problem using vendor "C" site-locals. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 15:27:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MRpCM002257; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74MRpv8002256; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MRfCM002196 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74MP5Uu013851 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74MP0xH007849 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:25:00 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:24:59 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa1f710fQimRs1R7SfbLSBU4bEnwAAG0Yg From: "Michel Py" To: Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74MRgCM002197 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Todd T. Fries wrote: > What requirement of site-local does provider > independent addressing not provide? We do not have PI addresses for IPv6, to begin with. And the reason we don't is that as soon as you begin to think about them I can already hear screams about having to carry an individual /48 in the routing table for each home. Yes, we need a PI-like solution but is has nothing to do with site-local addresses; they are complementary not competing. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 15:41:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MfuCM003406; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74MfuCK003405; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74MfrCM003398 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74MdHV7004591 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74MdBcf010699 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([217.126.187.160]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 64-md50000000050.tmp for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:40:49 +0200 Message-ID: <062d01c35ad9$30329410$8700000a@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com><3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <16174.53848.502642.367351@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:38:39 +0200 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:40:49 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I think there is a small but important, difference here between what PI and limited-range can provide. 1) PI needs some kind of registration process. 2) Limited-range can be an automatic process. It seems to me that 2) make sense in small networks, like unmanaged networks, where you will not ask the customers to go for 1. Anyway, as it was pointed already in Vienna, there is, may be, a chance to have both 1 & 2, being a complementary solution. Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thomas" To: "Alain Durand" Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; ; Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > FWIW, I wasn't there but I agree with Alain. I've > never seen any compelling evidence that scope qua > scope is what people actually need. And scope > brings any number of architectural questions to > the fore. I'd be much, much more comfortable > having an up/down pronouncement on whether PI > addressing is feasible before we march down this > road. There are very wide implications of both and > I think there's a tremendous amount of discomfort > with the possibility that scope will result in a > back door for NAT's to invade ipv6. I don't think > that anybody wants that. Before we head that > direction, I'd like to see PI addressing, in an > RFC preferrably, pronounced a dead end. > > Mike > > Alain Durand writes: > > > > > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > > > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > > > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > > > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > > > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > > > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > > > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > > > > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > > > , a specific alternative > > > to site-local addresses draft > > > (accepted as a working > > > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > > > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > > > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > > > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > > > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > > > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > > > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > > > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > > > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > > > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > > > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > > > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > > > reasonable alternative. > > > > I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and is mentioned in > > the minutes, > > the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it is based on a > > flawed logic. > > > > We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg realized that > > there were > > a number of significant issues that outweighed the reported benefits, so > > there > > is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. > > > > Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were having a role > > that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated addresses. Fine again. > > > > Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we need > > 'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by one > > of its main > > author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would be > > fulfilled > > by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that > > explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those > > requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are > > independent from ISPs. > > > > So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it is the same > > issue) > > to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so without clearly > > understanding the impact of those "ranged" addresses on the architecture > > and the current implementation is a flawed process. > > In particular, we need to understand the impact on address selection, > > and the layer violation that would be created by coupling DNS views & > > routing. > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with getting > > addresses > > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path > > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses are plentiful, > > we should have easy access to them! > > > > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non issue for me. > > > > - Alain. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 16:06:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74N6cCM005598; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74N6cVt005597; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74N6ZCM005590 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74N3xUu028370 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74N3sf8028414 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:03:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-135.cisco.com [171.71.119.135]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h74N3qLH023150 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2EE657.5050606@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:03:51 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'IPv6'" Subject: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello, I've read over this draft, and I find it very confusing. The title of the draft is "Limited Range Addressing Requirements". However, as one goes through the document, there is both justification and requirements. What time is spent on the justification for "limited range" addressing is using IPv4 and NOT IPv6 logic. In part I presume this is due to somebody's notion of IPv6 registry policies. I'm not sure. But here are a few "for instances": > There is a strong requirement for an easy-to-get, stable, private > address space for use within a limited range. Reasons include: > o avoid costs associated with running a registration infrastructure I've done this job for a very large company, as have many of you. I presume what you are talking about above is the management of network allocations. That doesn't stop whether or not one uses site-locals XXX errr.. limited range addressing. It does get easier with IPv6 given the fixed amount of space hosts have. The vast majority of time is spent allocating and reallocating that which has already been assigned by the upstream authority. Only rarely is there any interaction needed with an upstream for additional allocations. It is a low frequency operation not to be optimized for. > o avoid exposing internal network plans to competitors This is a procedural artifact of IPv4 that I have to believe can be gotten around. In fact it probably could have been gotten around with IPv4 using existing auditing business relationships. Before I go through the remainder of the document on this list (and I believe I have substantial disagreement) I'd request the authors update the Terminology section to include at least the following definitions: 1. "limited range" -- in particular, what is the semantic difference between these and SLs? 2. Redo "range" as its current definition doesn't help me much. 3. "validity" or "valid" 4. "filter" or "filtering" Thanks, Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 16:17:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NHMCM006644; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74NHMHZ006643; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NHDCM006589 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74NEbV7017907 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74NEVxH004976 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:26 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Bob Hinden'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:14:10 -0700 Message-ID: <022601c35ade$1efdb990$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > ... > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. This is not an introduction, they happened long ago ... > > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do > with getting > addresses > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses > are plentiful, > we should have easy access to them! This is not just a registry issue, the effect of random PI addresses on the global routing system also has to be factored in. > > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non > issue for me. > > - Alain. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 16:18:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NIeCM006866; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74NIbB6006865; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NIRCM006814 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74NFpUu003322 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74NFkf8003085 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:15:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA17158; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h74NFiD18295; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:15:44 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308042315> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdedKmOC; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:15:42 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:14:37 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [no hats on] >Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we need >'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by one of >its main >author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would be >fulfilled >by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that >explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those >requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are >independent from ISPs. If this means non-globally routable provider independent addresses (e.g., ), then I am in agreement that a solution doesn't have to be limited in scope (or range) like site-local addresses are. If this means globally routable provider independent addresses. Then it is, of course, correct that this would solve many of the problems too. Unfortunately, there is a big problem why this isn't a practical choice we can make now. We don't have, IMHO, any idea how to make globally routable provider independent addresses work at scale in the Internet. There are a number of problem area. We don't know how to route them at the scale of the current Internet. The current routing technology we have now would have to treat each provider independent prefix as a separate route. That would be one route per organization. That is way too many routes to be handled by anything close to current technology and products. It would be turning off aggregation. If we had new routing technology that could handle globally routable provider independent addresses, then it would have to be deployed in most routers in the Internet before it would be useful. Probably all routers from the site boundary to the core of the Internet. Given that I suspect any solution in this area would not be an incremental changes to a routers implementation (i.e., not another BGP extension), perhaps even changes to the routers route lookup engines (in hardware in many cases) this would likely take a long time to accomplish. Also, a bit of a chicken and egg deployment problem that everyone working on IPv6 understands too well. We don't have any structure in place to allocate and register these types of addresses. The registries might be able to do it, but as they are currently structured they are mostly focused on ISPs, not individual sites. This would require some major changes in their structure and perhaps funding models. Right now every site would have to be an LIR. Assuming routing technology was available and all of the routers were modified to support the new routing technology, then there would have to be some incentive for the ISP to want to carry these type of routes. They are great for the customers, but it makes it easy for their customers to switch ISPs. We have seen how well the phone providers have embraced provider independent phone numbers. They only "agreed" to support them after governmental action. I suspect ISP might not be widely enthusiastic to deploy them. So overall if we had all of these problems solved it would be great. Beside just the local address problems, it would deal with site multihoming, site mobility, change of ISP, and more. It's a great problem to work on as the benefits are many. But I don't think we will see solutions to these problem in the near or medium terms. I think the routing problem is a significant research topic that people have been working on for a long time. Until solutions two these problems are available, I don't see this as a viable alternate to the current approaches. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 16:25:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NPFCM007512; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74NPF1Q007509; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NP8CM007476 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74NMTV7021000 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74NMNCD012569 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA17440; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h74NMMk26225; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:22:22 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308042322> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd9vBHjW; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:22:20 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804161532.023a44e8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:21:15 -0700 To: Dan Lanciani From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200308042138.RAA18831@ss10.danlan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Dan, >It occurs to me that if we are going to start actually counting again >(picking the option with the most votes) the options offered will tend >to skew the result towards A by splitting the site-local support between >B & C. Therefore I wish to cast my vote against A more than for C... I am planning to publish the raw results so everyone can see all of the data before drawing any conclusions. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 16:49:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NnJCM009857; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h74NnJrE009856; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h74NnFCM009849 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74NkeUu014679 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74NkYxH022300 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:46:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:46:34 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" , "'IPv6'" Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:46:17 -0700 Message-ID: <022901c35ae2$99095420$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F2EE657.5050606@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h74NnGCM009850 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > Hello, > > I've read over this draft, and I find it very confusing. The > title of > the draft is "Limited Range Addressing Requirements". > However, as one > goes through the document, there is both justification and > requirements. > What time is spent on the justification for "limited range" > addressing > is using IPv4 and NOT IPv6 logic. There are some historic 'lessons learned' included here, but the real issue is meeting the expectations of the network managers who are currently using IPv4 logic. That is not to say we don't want them to change, but we can't assume they will even be willing to consider something that has a radically different architecture. > In part I presume this is due to > somebody's notion of IPv6 registry policies. I'm not sure. But here > are a few "for instances": > > > There is a strong requirement for an easy-to-get, stable, private > > address space for use within a limited range. Reasons include: > > > o avoid costs associated with running a registration infrastructure > > I've done this job for a very large company, as have many of you. I > presume what you are talking about above is the management of network > allocations. That doesn't stop whether or not one uses > site-locals XXX > errr.. limited range addressing. It does get easier with > IPv6 given the > fixed amount of space hosts have. The vast majority of time is spent > allocating and reallocating that which has already been > assigned by the > upstream authority. Only rarely is there any interaction > needed with an > upstream for additional allocations. It is a low frequency operation > not to be optimized for. You appear to assume that it is possible or desirable to expose the internal use of previous allocations, to show that some derivative of the HD ratio has been met to justify more space. It also appears you are looking at this from the perspective of managing allocations internal to the local network. The requirement was targeting the cost of maintaining an external central registry, and specifically at the cost aversion of small organizations, not large ones. > > > o avoid exposing internal network plans to competitors > > This is a procedural artifact of IPv4 that I have to believe can be > gotten around. In fact it probably could have been gotten > around with > IPv4 using existing auditing business relationships. > > Before I go through the remainder of the document on this list (and I > believe I have substantial disagreement) I'd request the > authors update > the Terminology section to include at least the following definitions: > > 1. "limited range" -- in particular, what is the semantic difference > between these and SLs? >From a routing perspective, nothing. SL meets the requirements for many network managers (it just doesn't meet the puritanical expectations of the IETF elite). From the identifier perspective, these are unambiguous. > 2. Redo "range" as its current definition doesn't help me > much. Send text. > 3. "validity" or "valid" 4. "filter" or "filtering" > Maybe I missed it, but it is not clear what you are looking for here. Other than to argue that the requirements of some network managers don't meet your goals for how they should run their networks, there doesn't seem to be any suggested fix for the document. We will be happy to change the document, but arguing someone else's requirement is not valid is not helpful. Tony > Thanks, > > Eliot > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 17:00:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7500TCM010827; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7500TVR010826; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7500PCM010819 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h74NvoUu018521 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h74Nvhf8018956 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:57:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212708077; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:57:38 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Michel Py'" Cc: Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:57:38 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <006c01c35ae4$30553640$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7500QCM010820 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel Py wrote: > > Todd T. Fries wrote: > > What requirement of site-local does provider > > independent addressing not provide? > > We do not have PI addresses for IPv6, to begin with. And the reason we > don't is that as soon as you begin to think about them I can already > hear screams about having to carry an individual /48 in the routing > table for each home. http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/ Then go to Distributed Looking Glass, enter 0::/0 as the prefix, select the Bogies mode and hit the "lookup" button. What was it again about /48's? It's already being done. ISP's, especially in the APNIC region even tend to announce both their /32 and /35. Most if not all ISP's don't even aggregate at all. As seen at 01:51 at the Abilene participant's router, when only showing the prefixes for 2001:238::/32 is interresting: 2001:238::/32 2001:4a0:0:ff00::1 1916 293 3425 17419 IGP 2001:238::/32 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 3425 17419 IGP 2001:238:100::/41 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:200::/41 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:882::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f82::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f84::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f85::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f86::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f87::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f88::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f89::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:f8b::/48 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:1000::/41 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:1800::/41 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP 2001:238:1900::/41 >i 2001:468:12::1 100 6939 6939 17715 17419 IGP Data Telekom's, Hurricane Electric's, TILab and Verat's routers even shows /64's being announced _and_ not aggregated... fun fun... At this moment you can announce almost anything you want apparently. Upstream ISP's don't mind at all. Fortunatly there are clued ISP's who do filter accordingly to: http://www.space.net/~gert/RIPE/ipv6-filters.html I would advise and even try to pursuade people to run them in strict mode... > Yes, we need a PI-like solution but is has nothing to do with > site-local addresses; they are complementary not competing. As you are probably one of the many people who really knows that we need is: Multihoming ;) I got some oddball ideas about it but I'll need to work them out much better and do loads of research about it first. (it would be a host-based solution, not a router one...) Greets, Jeroen -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 17:18:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750ITCM012738; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h750IT8f012737; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750IQCM012730 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h750FoUu025216 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h750Fiea005404 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:15:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2003 17:15:46 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-135.cisco.com [171.71.119.135]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h750Fg7F019752; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2EF72E.6060508@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:15:42 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'IPv6'" Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: <022901c35ae2$99095420$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <022901c35ae2$99095420$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > There are some historic 'lessons learned' included here, but the real issue > is meeting the expectations of the network managers who are currently using > IPv4 logic. That is not to say we don't want them to change, but we can't > assume they will even be willing to consider something that has a radically > different architecture. I think we differ on what "radical" is. Besides, the architectural change is there in IPv6 today- you count networks not hosts. This is merely a matter of taking advantage of it, right? > > > You appear to assume that it is possible or desirable to expose the internal > use of previous allocations, to show that some derivative of the HD ratio > has been met to justify more space. No, I certainly don't think it's desirable. Indeed what I'm saying is that auditors already need to know the financial state of affairs within a company, and they are already sworn to secrecy. This same mechanism could be expanded to cover the total allocation required. It's not that hard for a NOC to document, and in particular for IPv6 it really is a very simple counting exercise. The justification is MUCH simpler for IPv6 than it is for IPv4. It also appears you are looking at this > from the perspective of managing allocations internal to the local network. > The requirement was targeting the cost of maintaining an external central > registry, and specifically at the cost aversion of small organizations, not > large ones. Well, even with the above wording I still don't really understand what registry you're talking about. How does this differ from the in-addr function that a NOC (even a small one) must support? I don't know what you mean by registry (internal or external). >>1. "limited range" -- in particular, what is the semantic difference >>between these and SLs? > > >>From a routing perspective, nothing. SL meets the requirements for many > network managers (it just doesn't meet the puritanical expectations of the > IETF elite). From the identifier perspective, these are unambiguous. How so? How about a diff in small words I can understand? As it stands I feel as though we're going to relive history yet again by looking at an obfuscated rehash of what we just rejected. No, I will not regurgitate the entire argument against SLs (y'all can thank me now). Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 17:21:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750L3CM012907; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h750L3jG012906; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750L0CM012899 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h750IOUu026358 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h750IIf8026344 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:18:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id RAA20776 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h750IIM06334; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:18:18 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308050018> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdOKcLDv; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:18:16 PDT Message-ID: <3F2EF959.4090607@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:24:57 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk My primary concern is and always has been support for sites that "bump into one another" from time to time, which can happen as result of site mobility and/or temporal links between sites (e.g., VPNs, leased lines, range-restricted wireless links, etc.) Also to support sites that are intermittently connected to and/or frequently change provider points of attachment. Site multi-homing is clearly another area of prime concern expressed by others. As can be seen from the IETF 56 meeting minutes, I stated a position closest to Bob's option B) below and in fact abstained from the balloting when the question was called on the list while stating my reasons for doing so. But, after significant further study, I can see no way in which the current site-local specification satisfies any of the above requirements and can in fact only see trouble down the road if site-locals emerge in wide scale deployment. So, I am now of the opinion that option A) below provides the most workable alternative. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com P.S. This is not to say we should stop working on solutions for such "active" sites; only that the solutions should be worked independently of site-local deprectaion. Bob Hinden wrote: > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > alternative solution available. This would mean that the working > group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution > documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was > no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > the same time and making them include normative references to each > other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not > advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence > that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. > I hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 17:23:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750NoCM012984; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h750NoEN012983; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750NjCM012976 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h750LAUu027294 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h750L4ea008129 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:21:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ400IVZEB4YO@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:21:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ400DHPEB3RP@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:21:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:21:03 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F2EF86F.7080103@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > [no hats on] > >> Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to explain why we >> need >> 'local' addresses. If you read it carefully, and as acknowledged by >> one of its main >> author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not all) would >> be fulfilled >> by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing in it that >> explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The essence of those >> requirements is in the need for stable addresses that are >> independent from ISPs. > > > If this means non-globally routable provider independent addresses > (e.g., ), then I am in > agreement that a solution doesn't have to be limited in scope (or > range) like site-local addresses are. > > If this means globally routable provider independent addresses. Then > it is, of course, correct that this would solve many of the problems > too. Unfortunately, there is a big problem why this isn't a practical > choice we can make now. We don't have, IMHO, any idea how to make > globally routable provider independent addresses work at scale in the > Internet. There are a number of problem area. What I mean is provider independant, registry allocated, public address space. The fact that they are or not routable is an orthogonal issue to be worked by contract between ISPs and their customers. There is no way that the IETF or the registry can play a role there, this is pure economy. > We don't know how to route them at the scale of the current Internet. And we do not have to. If I want a block for my house and do not plan to use it for something else, I will get such a block and not ask my ISP to route it. If I want to set-up a VPN between two networks, I will go to my ISP and ask for limited routing. If I start a new company and am successful, I may want to get back to my ISP and ask: "how much to globally route my own personal /48?" This is somehow a self-regulating problem. If only a few players want their pesonal /48 announced, this is no big deal and the cost will be low. If more people wants this, the cost will increase, and it will then become a trade-off, the value of having your personal prefix announced in the DFZ versus the size of your bill at the end of the month. > We don't have any structure in place to allocate and register these > types of addresses. The registries might be able to do it, but as they > are currently structured they are mostly focused on ISPs, not > individual sites. This would require some major changes in their > structure and perhaps funding models. Right now every site would have > to be an LIR. From private discussions, I'm not sure this is that impossible to achieve. I'll let them comment. > Assuming routing technology was available and all of the routers were > modified to support the new routing technology, then there would have > to be some incentive for the ISP to want to carry these type of routes. see above. > They are great for the customers, but it makes it easy for their > customers to switch ISPs. We have seen how well the phone providers > have embraced provider independent phone numbers. They only "agreed" > to support them after governmental action. I suspect ISP might not be > widely enthusiastic to deploy them. Give that the regulators decided that phone carriers had to support telephone number portability, how long do you think it will take before they decide that ISP have to do the same? - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 17:56:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750u3CM016169; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h750u348016168; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h750u0CM016161 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h750rOV7023981 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h750rHxH024626 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2003 17:57:37 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h750rF7F016655; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGT40849; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id RAA18114; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:53:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16174.65530.386480.558879@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:53:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden writes: > If this means globally routable provider independent addresses. Then it > is, of course, correct that this would solve many of the problems > too. Unfortunately, there is a big problem why this isn't a practical > choice we can make now. We don't have, IMHO, any idea how to make > globally routable provider independent addresses work at scale in the > Internet. There are a number of problem area. Bob, The issue I have is that there are a number of problems that are all interrelated in various ways: renumbering, multihoming, mobility, address stability, etc which we as IETF'ers need to take into consideration for building a net which will be useful 10 years from now. I suspect that there is no "right" answer aka silver bullet because of all of the conflicting requirements, so the ultimate answer is likely to be some form of picking palatable poison (ppp for short). You're certainly right that we have no good clues as to how to scale PI up to Internet scaling. On the other hand, we know that NAT's will step in the second that they are expedient and solve a problem -- inelegantly -- not feasible other ways. And we all know what a horrible hack NAT's are. Nor do I see how anybody can suggest with a straight face that there will not be NAT's which bridge local addressing domains with the global addressing domain. It wouldn't even surprise me that that even happens today; heck I probably know the product manager responsible for it. But I'm sorry, if NAT's become a de-facto necessity for v6 native networks (putting aside the need for v4/v6 NAT's), then I find the entire premise of ipv6's utility deeply undermined. Quite possibly fatally. So without trying to be too preachy, I think that we really should have a preponderance of evidence that we absolutely, positively cannot make either PI and/or renumbering based solutions work in a way that people can deploy and use them. I fully understand the compelling arguments of Moore's law and disaggregated addresses in the current internet. Obviously any PI solution could not be naive. However, it doesn't seem to me that there's been nearly enough work to develop a PI friendly Internet. And even though Fred's operational renumbering uncovered all kinds of other intractibilities -- especially as you want to scale it down to smaller networks, I still think the jury is out. Also: we can be pretty certain that any PI solution and/or renumbering solution if it exists will highly likely have serious warts. But this needs to be compared to alternative: NAT's. NAT's being required to deploy in real life basically says that the internet stupid-network/global addressing design was flawed. Are we really ready to make such a pronouncement? Are we ready to say that global transparency lost the argument? The market place pretty much says that, but are we ready? Maybe this train has long since left the station and the IETF is impotent change that, but it sure seems to me that if we cannot solve this in such a way that NAT's aren't the inevitable result (eg, the path of least resistance) then we should immediately change tacks and embrace addressing realms and ALG forwarders through those realms as an architectural principal. Thus, a lot is riding on this IMO, and my feeling is that the vehemence of the uncomfort with locally scoped addresses is that it tacitly concedes our inability to keep with the architectural principal of a dumb globally addressed network. And I also get the feeling that there is not anything approaching consensus to admit defeat on that architectural principle, so even these small sensible steps that you propose nonetheless seem grave in their global implications. So if we can't deal with requirements of address stability and/or renumbering, etc without non-global addressing realms, let's document it, reassess our architectural principles, and move on. Until then, we're just pushing off the inevitable confrontation: a confrontation which IMO will decide the shape of the net for years to come. Quite frankly the marketplace will decide for us with NAT's in the mean time, no matter how much myself or anybody else whines about it. Let's at least drive this to a conclusion one way or the other from an engineering standpoint to see if this is both technically and economically hopeless. Until then, we're just gnashing. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 18:12:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h751CKCM017536; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h751CIun017535; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h751CBCM017528 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7519ZV7029078 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starfruit.itojun.org (h131.p019.iij4u.or.jp [210.130.19.131]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7519Bcf005343 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by starfruit.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9BDCB793; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:09:02 +0900 (JST) To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: hinden's message of Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 MST. <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: itojun@iijlab.net From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:09:02 +0900 Message-Id: <20030805010902.9BDCB793@starfruit.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative >a replacement would not happen. my choice is (A). as we have discussed at SF (and probably prior meetings) site-local address has a lot of issues with it, for instance, - ambiguous address - can't be used referrals across site zones, and there's no way to determine if a site-local address is from out-of-site or not (because of ambiguity) - mandates hosts to know the topology, which we should not allow/mandate - site-border router issues, and (lack of) routing protocol functionality to handle it therefore sooner deprecation is better. itojun PS: each of the items are summary of discussions we had before, to my ears, don't try to comment on each items please. the point of the email is the very first sentence, and that's all. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 19:06:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7526GCM020191; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7526G3X020190; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75269CM020183 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7523YV7018455 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7523TqY009054 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:03:28 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa5DKjlAmo17FrTySYYhWN192ozgAANxUw From: "Michel Py" To: "Jeroen Massar" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7526CCM020184 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jeroen, > Jeroen Massar wrote: > At this moment you can announce almost anything > you want apparently. Yep I see /32 /33 /35 /40 /41 /42 /44 /48 /64 from some peers, Including some interesting ones such as: 2001:530:DEAD:BEAD::/64 This is the very reason we have to be very careful with any kind of globally unique address that has a global scope, because it can really quickly degenerate into having clueless ISPs that don't care to clueful salespersons that see an opportunity. As a few thousand prefixes would not be a problem at the beginning, it might take of really quick leaving a big mess to clean up some years later. > Fortunatly there are clued ISP's who do > filter accordingly to: > http://www.space.net/~gert/RIPE/ipv6-filters.html NRENS do filter too for what I have seen. > As you are probably one of the many people who really > knows that we need is: Multihoming ;) How did you guess that? Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 20:04:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7534BCM023304; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7534AfX023303; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75343CM023276 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7531SUu012212 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7531Mea027142 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:01:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2003 20:05:43 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7531Ktp022271 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-194.cisco.com [10.21.80.194]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.3-GR) with ESMTP id ABG39747; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804222146.00b8d0a0@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:01:15 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I've reviewed the minutes from the ipv6 WG meeting in SF and those minutes reflect my memory that the question about deprecating site-local addresses was put to the WG independent of any consideration of a replacement mechanism. Clarifying e-mail to the ipng mailing list from Margaret (3/28/2003) further reinforces that the WG was simply asked about deprecating site-local addresses and not about any possible replacement: >It became clear that there was significant support >within the group for deprecating site-local addressing altogether, >so we decided to call a different questions -- whether or not to >deprecate site-local addressing. Bob's e-mail to the ipng mailing list used to judge WG consensus on deprecating site-local addresses asked: >The question is: > > Should we deprecate IPv6 site-local unicast addressing? > >Valid responses are: > > "YES -- Deprecate site-local unicast addressing". > "NO -- Do not deprecate site-local unicast addressing". which I read to be pretty clearly independent of consideration of any replacement mechanism. In response to Bob's question on the WG mailing list, the YESes followed the format from Bob's e-mail - that is, those YESes were unconditional "YES -- deprecate SL", not any form of "YES -- deprecate SL after a suitable replacement has been defined". So, given that history, on what basis are we now considering the question: >Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an >alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is >available, or sometime after an alternative is available. Furthermore, based on the record of the question from the minutes of the SF meeting and the question put to the ipng mailing list, how was this conclusion arrived at: >A fourth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, >but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >reasonable alternative. - Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 20:21:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753L4CM023922; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h753L35O023921; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753KxCM023914 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h753INUu016613 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h753IICD008346 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:18:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id UAA29843 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h753IGl23565; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:18:16 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308050318> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (209.157.142.164, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdHia8yA; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:18:14 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804201235.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:17:10 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com In-Reply-To: <20030805010902.9BDCB793@starfruit.itojun.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks to everyone who has responded with a preference so far. Please keep them coming. To make it a little easier to keep track of the results, please only use the above subject for direct responses. Move discussions to other Subjects. Thanks, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 20:24:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753OsCM024125; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h753Osvc024123; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753OlCM024106 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h753MBUu017531 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h753M5CD009693 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:22:06 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa7N4uYHGDBBQzTluTMV3CbhdRyAAELamw From: "Michel Py" To: "Michael Thomas" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h753OnCM024110 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael, For a change I mostly agree (will detail below what I don't like) with what you just posted, especially: > Michael Thomas wrote: > so even these small sensible steps that you propose > nonetheless seem grave in their global implications. and > But I'm sorry, if NAT's become a de-facto necessity > for v6 native networks (putting aside the need for > v4/v6 NAT's), then I find the entire premise of ipv6's > utility deeply undermined. Quite possibly fatally. The same is true if we create a swamp again and allow individual /48s in the global routing table. Then IPv6 will become IPv4 with more bits, and in the current economy the net result will be more NAT-aware apps. I'm sorry to say it bluntly, but today IPv4 is unavoidable and if the only edge IPv6 has is a bigger address space I'm afraid it won't be enough to cut it. I welcome some debunking on the following assertions: 1. Even if we say that NATv6 is evil, there is little we can do to prevent it from happening except providing a solution that would bring somehow similar advantages. 2. Even if we say that individual /48s in the global routing table are evil, there is little we can do to prevent it from happening except providing a solution that would bring somehow similar advantages. However, 3. If we say that NAT is acceptable, half-acceptable, maybe OK in the short term (or whatever) it WILL happen and there will be no way back. 4. If we say that individual /48s in the global routing table are acceptable, half-acceptable, maybe OK in the short term (or whatever) they WILL happen and there will be no way back. In other words, it IPv6 becomes IPv4 with the same NAT crap and the same BGP stability issues due to an oversized routing table, it ain't part of my network designs. Back to what I disagree with, you seem to blend the PI issue and the SL issue into the same problem. They are unrelated. Michel -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 20:43:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753hECM024921; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h753hDXs024920; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753h3CM024910 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h753eRUu021918 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h753eLea015230 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 05:39:57 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h753c6ur002239; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:38:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:40:18 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:40:18 +0200 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:40:50 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Bob Hinden'" , , To: "Tony Hain" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <022601c35ade$1efdb990$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: <9BD001C0-C6F6-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2003 03:40:18.0680 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A57BF80:01C35B03] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 01:14 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > Alain Durand wrote: >> ... >> IMHO, what need to happen is the following: >> >> -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing >> addresses with different ranges. > > This is not an introduction, they happened long ago ... ...but what has happened _now_ is that people wake up and see that introduction was possibly wrong, so the decision must be revoked. We better remove this while we don't have any large deployment of IPv6. The longer we wait, the more problematic the surgery will be. Using "we already have this written down" is for me not an argument keeping it. Just look at what happens with DNSSEC (RFC 2535) at the moment! It is NEVER too late to regret a decision. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 20:50:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753nkCM025338; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h753nku8025336; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h753ncCM025312 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h753l2Uu023529 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h753kucf022001 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 05:46:33 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h753iWV0002782; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:44:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:46:47 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:46:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 05:47:20 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20030805010902.9BDCB793@starfruit.itojun.org> Message-Id: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2003 03:46:47.0513 (UTC) FILETIME=[321AF490:01C35B04] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk From an Application (above TCP) perspective, A, definitely A. Itojun summarizes well the issues. Mandating a host to know topology is just a really bad thing. Really really bad. paf On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 03:09 Europe/Stockholm, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. >> I >> think the choices are: >> >> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an >> alternative >> solution available. This would mean that the working group should >> treat >> the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined >> above >> independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >> alternative >> a replacement would not happen. > > my choice is (A). as we have discussed at SF (and probably prior > meetings) site-local address has a lot of issues with it, for > instance, > - ambiguous address > - can't be used referrals across site zones, and there's no way to > determine if a site-local address is from out-of-site or not > (because of ambiguity) > - mandates hosts to know the topology, which we should not > allow/mandate > - site-border router issues, and (lack of) routing protocol > functionality to handle it > therefore sooner deprecation is better. > > itojun > PS: each of the items are summary of discussions we had before, to my > ears, > don't try to comment on each items please. the point of the email is > the very first sentence, and that's all. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 21:19:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h754JGCM027033; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h754JGB6027032; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h754JBCM027025 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h754GZV7022581 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h754GTCD028850 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:16:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id VAA02763; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h754GTG16010; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:16:29 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308050416> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (209.157.142.164, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdsVN6l8; Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:16:26 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:15:21 -0700 To: Ralph Droms From: Bob Hinden Subject: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804222146.00b8d0a0@funnel.cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph, >Furthermore, based on the record of the question from the minutes of the SF >meeting and the question put to the ipng mailing list, how was this >conclusion arrived at: > >>A fourth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, >>but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >>reasonable alternative. It's from my reading of the discussion (on the mailing list and in the meetings) and the fact that the working group decided to accept as a working group document in Vienna. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 21:43:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h754h0CM028508; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h754gxQo028504; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h754grCM028493 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h754eHV7012892 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (dsl092-066-067.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.66.67]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h754eBCD007463 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:40:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (localhost [::1]) by thrintun.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB3318EA for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:40:10 -0400 From: Rob Austein To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/20.7 Mule/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20030805044010.1BB3318EA@thrintun.hactrn.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: > > Please respond to the list with your preference Sigh. A. ["But where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Well, maybe next year." -- Stephen Sondheim] -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 22:11:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h755BQCM029964; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h755BQLd029963; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h755BKCM029947 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7558iUu014407 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h007.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.121]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7558df8013017 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:08:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (cpmta 29020 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2003 22:08:38 -0700 Received: from 212.150.211.163 (HELO w2knerick) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.121) with SMTP; 4 Aug 2003 22:08:38 -0700 X-Sent: 5 Aug 2003 05:08:38 GMT Message-ID: <007e01c35b0f$a8a7eb80$03051eac@ttitelecom.com> Reply-To: "EricLKlein" From: "EricLKlein" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:08:47 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for C, you can't ask people who are up and running with something today to just stop with out a plan on replacing it. Otherwise FEC0:: will stay a de facto private range as we will have implementations using it and ones that are not. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hinden" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:06 PM Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative to > site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 22:47:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h755l2CM001903; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h755l289001902; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h755kuCM001888 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h755iLUu022223 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h755iGcf019297 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn3-595.cisco.com [10.21.66.83]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h755iCpp000290; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:44:15 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: Ralph Droms , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob, I am sorry, but while it is a good attempt to come up with a happy medium between SLs and global addresses, I disagree with the approach that draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt takes. I would prefer an approach that makes the stability of the IP address less important rather than attempting to stablize it (a seemingly lost cause). What this means to me is that first we need to promulgate something along the lines of draft-baker-ipv6-renumber-procedure-00.txt. It needs some expanding to further automate the process. The more we automate the less pain the network manager will feel during a renumbering event. This changes the problem from one of a scoped address to one of a standard default and reduces any ambiguity that we might have. It leaves open the question of how to find a name server, and how a name server finds you, but the former can be found with SLP, and the latter can then be handled with DDNS. I'd like to put Fred on the spot (not having asked him) and propose that his draft be adopted as a WG doc. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 23:14:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756EdCM003273; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h756Eb6t003267; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756EWCM003251 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h756BvV7004625 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftmail.lab.flarion.com (mail.flarion.com [63.103.94.23]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h756Bpcf003951 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ftmail.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:11:50 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A01922C37@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Soliman Hesham To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:11:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk C makes sense to me. Hesham > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Hinden" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:06 PM > Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > > I think the working group has been making good progress on > replacing > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the > working group on > > how we should move forward. This is not intended to > directly relate to > the > > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate > the usage > > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to > proceed. I think it > is > > very important that we move forward on this issue and not > rehash what has > > happened in the past. > > > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > > , a specific > alternative to > > site-local addresses draft > > > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and > will soon have > a > > draft describing why site-local addresses are being > deprecated and doing > > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline > discussed at the > > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will > proceed through the > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how > the working group > > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given > their maturity in > > the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically > > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > solution > > available, at the same time an alternative is available, > or sometime after > > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working > group has made > it > > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we > should proceed. I > > think the choices are: > > > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from > having an alternative > > solution available. This would mean that the working > group should treat > > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > alternative > > a replacement would not happen. > > > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > > same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > > insure that they were published at the same time. This > would result in > the > > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > > standardized, and in operational practice. This would > mean not advancing > a > > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement > over Site-Local > > addresses. > > > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones > I outlined. I > > hope that many of you will respond. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 23:17:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756HBCM003355; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h756HBdU003354; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756H6CM003347 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h756EUV7005098 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h756EOxH022480 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by jazz.mei.co.jp (8.12.9/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id h756EOk1010864 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:24 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id h756ENi27682 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:23 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/bluejays) with ESMTP id h756EM828113 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:22 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by vsm.ctmo.mei.co.jp (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA19863 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from chorus.isl.mei.co.jp(132.182.1.10) by vsm.ctmo.mei.co.jp via smap (V2.0) id ; Tue, 5 Aug 03 15:14:09 +0900 Received: by chorus.isl.mei.co.jp (8.9.3p2/5.9:4.9:isl-mx-com:20000204) id PAA29025; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:06 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <014901c35b18$c94ee740$faaab684@cote> Reply-To: "Yibo Zhang" From: "Yibo Zhang" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:14:10 +0900 Organization: Matsushita Electric Industry Corp. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for B from individual technical perspective. C and A can only be agreed with politically. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hinden" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:06 AM Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative to > site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 23:42:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756grCM004490; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h756grGh004489; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756gkCM004482 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h756eAV7011447 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h756e5qY021399 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (64.102.124.12) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2003 23:40:06 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-103.cisco.com [10.82.224.103]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h756e2Xw018707; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F2F5144.4070004@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:40:04 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Based on Ralph's analysis I vote A to support the WG's prevous decision. That having been said, as I wrote in my previous email, I'd like to proceed on multiple fronts to develop solutions to the underlying problems that site-local attempted to address. By the way, would others please state WHY they are voting the way they are voting? I think it's sufficient to indicate that you agree with someone else's reasoning, as I have. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 23:51:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756pYCM004869; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h756pXeH004868; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756pOCM004861 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h756mlUu007564 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h756mfCD024654 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:48:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h756mF516268; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:48:15 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2F532F.9050203@it.su.se> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:48:15 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Patrik Fältström wrote: > From an Application (above TCP) perspective, A, definitely A. Itojun > summarizes well the issues. Mandating a host to know topology is just > a really bad thing. Really really bad. > > paf I am worried that continuing to beat the dead horse gets v6 nowhere. I know of several non-ipv6 people (people with backgrounds in security and applications) who got involved in the site-local debate because they were worried about the way the wg was heading. The consensus in SF to deprecate site-local (and that is exactly what it was) was seen as progress by many who are now probably not paying attention having moved on to other pressing matters. It is probably good to keep that in mind when judging the current debate. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 4 23:53:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756r6CM004938; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h756r5Lb004937; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h756r0CM004920 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h756oOUu008032 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h756oHcf023584 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h756o4516272; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:50:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2F539C.3080002@it.su.se> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:50:04 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Patrik Fältström wrote: > From an Application (above TCP) perspective, A, definitely A. Itojun > summarizes well the issues. Mandating a host to know topology is just > a really bad thing. Really really bad. > I concur with an added "really" tagged on. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 01:02:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7582PCM009307; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7582Ovq009306; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7582HCM009299 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h757xfUu024118 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h757xZxH014172 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:59:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ocean.jinmei.org (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [3ffe:501:100f::35]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA7F1525F; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:59:32 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:59:31 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/21.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Tue_Aug__5_16:59:31_2003-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --Multipart_Tue_Aug__5_16:59:31_2003-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700, >>>>> Bob Hinden said: > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: I prefer this one: > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. I know my vote is not consistent with what I said in the previous vote after the San Francisco meeting (attached below). Though I still have the same concern (in fact, we've already seen a "confusion"), I think it is most productive to support option A and (at least try to) move forward anyway. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp --Multipart_Tue_Aug__5_16:59:31_2003-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: X-Mail-Format-Warning: Bad RFC2822 header formatting in >From jinmei Tue Apr 8 02:49:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Original-To: jinmei@shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp Delivered-To: jinmei@shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-6.1.0) for jinmei@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:49:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsbgw.wide.toshiba.co.jp (tsbgw.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.123]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C1DA15214 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from maltese.wide.toshiba.co.jp (maltese.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.99]) by tsbgw.wide.toshiba.co.jp (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h37HnGLT029493 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (spiffy.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp [133.196.10.10]) by maltese.wide.toshiba.co.jp (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA04447 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from mx.toshiba.co.jp (mx1.toshiba.co.jp [133.199.160.215]) by isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (8.11.7/8.11.6/1.4) with ESMTP id h37HnF500989 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp by toshiba.co.jp id CAA09726; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp by tsb-sgw2.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id h37HnEiK029328 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:14 +0900 (JST) Received: from orange.kame.net (orange.kame.net [203.178.141.194]) by inet-tsb5.toshiba.co.jp with ESMTP id h37HnDug025898 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:13 +0900 (JST) Received: by orange.kame.net (Postfix) id E57F67047; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:13 +0900 (JST) Delivered-To: jinmei@kame.net Received: from sh.wide.ad.jp (sh.wide.ad.jp [2001:200:0:1001::6]) by orange.kame.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D9E7022 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by sh.wide.ad.jp (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h37HnDZ28551 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:49:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3p2+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05094; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.8+Sun/8.12.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h37HmDHl026432; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h37Hlemh004160; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id h37Hlb0S004159; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h37HlSmh004113 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.8+Sun/8.12.8/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h37HlZcU019091 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.sun.com (ip150143-103-14.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.14] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3p2+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07507 for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mms02es.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02es.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.140]) by relay1i.sun.com with ESMTP for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:47:29 Z Received: from mms02bms.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms02bms.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.160]) by mms02es.sun.com with ESMTP for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:47:29 Z Received: from mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com (mms01bas.mms.us.syntegra.com [150.143.103.10]) by mms02bms.sun.com with ESMTP for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:47:29 Z Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by relay1.sun.com with ESMTP for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:47:28 Z Received: from localhost (unknown [3ffe:501:100f:f::6]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9D015210 for ; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 02:48:02 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 02:47:16 +0900 Message-Id: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: CONSENSUS CALL: Deprecating Site-Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030401143711.04a0f848@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030401143711.04a0f848@mail.windriver.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/21.2 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 40 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: )+b!!Ll]"!Ode!!;&$!! X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-8.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_TRAIL,IN_REP_TO,MAY_BE_FORGED,NOSPAM_INC, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: >>>>> On Tue, 01 Apr 2003 14:37:56 -0500, >>>>> Margaret Wasserman said: > Should we deprecate IPv6 site-local unicast addressing? "NO -- Do not deprecate site-local unicast addressing". - because I'm not convinced that there is a clear consensus on an alternative to site-local or that we do not need such a consensus. I'm sad I must vote for NO...I've tried to convince myself by the meeting minutes, presentation slides, discussion in this list, and some private discussion, but I failed. I've seen many candidate alternatives that at least include: - arbitrary (random) global prefix - fec0:: + random bits - free prefix allocation service I've even seen a wording nit like: - leave site-local in the spec, but make a recommendation to avoid using it. (but can't this also be interpreted as a sort of 'not deprecate site-local'?) I could not be sure if we'll be able to make a consensus on any of them (or others) quickly, if we choose "deprecating" site-local. If not, the result will just be a confusion. If we can, then I don't see why we cannot first make a consensus quickly and then deprecate site-local. I (of course) don't know the final result of this vote at this moment. But regardless of the result, I'm willing to follow it without making a further objection, and will try to make a productive contribution based on the result. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Multipart_Tue_Aug__5_16:59:31_2003-1-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 01:48:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h758mkCM011529; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h758mjLC011528; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h758mfCM011518 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h758k5Uu004467 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skynet.stack.nl (skynet.stack.nl [131.155.140.225]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h758jxqY026466 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 01:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by skynet.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 65534) id DBE503E2D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:48:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.stack.nl (dragon.stack.nl [2001:610:1108:5011:207:e9ff:fe09:230]) by skynet.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBFF3E25 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:48:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dragon.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1600) id 24D3E5F18B; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:45:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:45:53 +0200 From: Dean Strik To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030805084553.GB48863@dragon.stack.nl> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Editor: VIM Rulez! http://www.vim.org/ X-MUD: Outerspace - telnet://mud.stack.nl:3333 X-Really: Yes User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-29.3 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.50 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.50 (1.173-2003-02-20-exp) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. A. -- Dean C. Strik Eindhoven University of Technology dean@stack.nl | dean@ipnet6.org | http://www.ipnet6.org/ "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 02:44:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h759iXCM014113; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h759iWSO014112; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h759iOCM014102 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h759flUu015621 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h759fff8029217 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:41:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h759fO516454; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:41:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:41:24 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: narten@us.ibm.com, mrw@windriver.com CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk During the IETF meeting in San Francisco, rough consensus found that site-local was to be deprecated. The wg was to investigate other approaches to the problems site-local claims to solve. It should be noted that the wg chairs explicitly before the meeting in San Francisco asked people not directly involved in ipv6 design (security, routing and applications people) to get involved with this issue. In my opinion from talking to a number of collegues and from the traffic on the mailing list those involved from other areas are no longer actively participating in the debate since they believe that site-locals has indeed been deprecated and that the ipv6 wg is continuing the important work on ipv6 in the IETF. Currently the question about the future and status of site-locals is again beeing discussed in the wg despite the fact that consensus was achieved in SF and confirmed on the mailing-list. This is a sign that the wg chairs have not been able to follow the plan laid out at the SF meeting. I respectfully ask that the ADs to confirm the decision made in San Francisco, later confirmed on the mailing list, and ask the wg chairs to please move on, working on real issues regarding ipv6 than beating this dead horse once again. Best Regards Leif Johansson Stockholm university -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 03:05:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75A5bCM014853; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75A5ZZZ014852; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75A5VCM014842 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75A2sUu020112 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75A2mxH019349 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:02:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19jyeV-0001Y8-00 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:02:47 +0200 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <1060077767.3f2f80c7403f4@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:02:47 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Bob Hinden : > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > alternative > solution available. A. Stabilize the patient, then worry about how to make arms and legs work again. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 04:09:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75B9gCM017710; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75B9gPn017709; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75B9bCM017702 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75B71V7015180 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75B6tcf013945 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h75Avij9029121 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 03:57:46 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:39:07 +0530 Message-ID: <00bb01c35b41$fff935b0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h75B9dCM017703 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk My understanding is that the workgroup has voted to deprecate site-locals unconditionally (having no dependency on the development and acceptance of alternatives). Thus, I vote for A. Apart from the above reason, I feel that deprecating site-locals ASAP will lead to a rapid development of alternate solutions, as the WG will have an urgency to fill the holes left by site-locals. CP > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner- > ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:37 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative to > site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made > it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 07:01:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75E1ECM022066; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75E1CoM022065; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75E17CM022058 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75DwVV7028924 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com (saturn.bt.com [193.113.57.20]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75DwOqY015878 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) id ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:58:36 +0100 Message-ID: From: matthew.ford@bt.com To: hinden@iprg.nokia.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:58:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having > an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on > an alternative > a replacement would not happen. It is my understanding (and I am obviously not alone in this) that the WG has already selected the course of action outlined above. Mat -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:08:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75F8oCM024756; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75F8oOL024754; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75F8iCM024743 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75F68Uu003830 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75F62sF026288 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h75EqAbt1509968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:52:07 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <85040437.1060080727@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk B. Captures the declared consensus and agreed work items. Politically A. will deprecate site locals and strand their replacement in the WG forever -- the result will be prefix hijacking -- not good. C. seems too ambitious given that a group of folks urgently feel that continued SL deployment will be harmful. The consensus reached by this WG is tenuous at best. The essence of the discussions seems to pretty clearly combine the need to remove SLs and to introduce a "replacement". A subset of the group just wants SLs gone. Another subset points out (correctly I think) that circumstances exist where a provider-based prefix won't work. Folks, this is not rocket science. IPv6 needs a known prefix that can be distinguished from provider-based addressing, and a mechanism to uniquely (or almost-uniquely) assign addresses out of this prefix. I won't rehash all the reasons why -- check the list archives. There really are only two down-sides -- someone could start routing these prefixes and someone could try to NAT them. These need to be addressed in the appropriate documents (e.g., node requirements that prohibit address replacement in the header, etc.). IMHO the dynamics that initially created IPv4 NAT are not present in IPv6, but that is another discussion. There is real danger here; I have already started to see mailing list discussion going something like: Q. What address prefix do I use for this network before I get my provider prefix? A1. Use FECO (Site Local). A2. No, No, FECO has been outlawed by the IETF, just invent a prefix! I have seen the 2002 mapping of RFC 1918 suggested. "Private" space will appear -- I want a version that is thought out, that is well documented and understood, not a mish-mash of hijacked prefixes and IPv6'afied RFC1918 stuff. --On Monday, August 04, 2003 11:06 -0700 Bob Hinden wrote: > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an > alternative. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:10:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FAjCM024852; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75FAhhX024851; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FAcCM024844 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75F81V7019472 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowl.fysh.org ([195.167.170.152]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75F7u3u006762 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:07:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19k3Pm-0002qm-00; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:07:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:07:54 +0100 To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The three options are really the same. We already have alternatives to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 IPv4 addresses. We didn't have these alternatives a few years ago. These aren't perfect, which is why we must develop draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr, but they're enough that fec0::/10 seems rather unnecessary in any current IPv6 deployment. They particularly handle the requirements of those organisations that want site-locals because that's what they had with IPv4 and they want the same again. So I support option A, deprecate site-locals independent of further development of alternatives. We have sufficiently good stopgap solutions. I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. -zefram -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:27:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FRJCM025309; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75FRJJt025308; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM [129.148.13.40]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FRDCM025301 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75FOZtK029048; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75FOZ8Q029001; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308051524.h75FOZ8Q029001@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 PDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:24:35 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. "A". Site locals as presently defined are incomplete. I believe that they represent a "wrong turn" taken a while back. We need to make a clear statement that no energy should be wasted in implementing/supporting them in application and other upper-layer protocols. - Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:28:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FSiCM025325; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75FSiOC025324; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FScCM025317 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75FQ1Uu010135 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75FPtsF002092 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:25:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h75FPoR8059068; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:25:50 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h75FPn01282560; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:25:49 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA40894; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:25:48 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2FCC7C.F82DF608@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:25:48 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I'll go for B, or perhaps A.9 (i.e. a version of B in which we avoid recursive normative references between the two documents). I don't think we help anyone by delaying the deprecation until a new solution is "in operational practice." Deprecation doesn't mean switching off; it just means a strong statement about future switching off. So there is no reason to wait as in C. Personally I would happily accept A, but it isn't worth a fight. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK Bob Hinden wrote: > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to the > ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it is > very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what has > happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative to > site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a > draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative solution > available, at the same time an alternative is available, or sometime after > an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not replace > site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group has made it > clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:32:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FWSCM025522; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75FWSPh025521; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FWNCM025506 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75FTkV7025736 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75FTegn028308 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h75FTc7o231088 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:29:38 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h75FTc01264792 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:29:38 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA45306 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:29:36 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:29:37 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy the value of Bob's proposal. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK Eliot Lear wrote: > > Bob, > > I am sorry, but while it is a good attempt to come up with a happy > medium between SLs and global addresses, I disagree with the approach > that draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt takes. I would prefer > an approach that makes the stability of the IP address less important > rather than attempting to stablize it (a seemingly lost cause). > > What this means to me is that first we need to promulgate something > along the lines of draft-baker-ipv6-renumber-procedure-00.txt. It needs > some expanding to further automate the process. The more we automate > the less pain the network manager will feel during a renumbering event. > > This changes the problem from one of a scoped address to one of a > standard default and reduces any ambiguity that we might have. It > leaves open the question of how to find a name server, and how a name > server finds you, but the former can be found with SLP, and the latter > can then be handled with DDNS. > > I'd like to put Fred on the spot (not having asked him) and propose that > his draft be adopted as a WG doc. > > Eliot > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:39:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FdfCM025733; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Fde80025732; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FdZCM025715 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75FawUu013982 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75FaqsF005534 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:36:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 08:41:18 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75FanuG016215; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com ([161.44.65.215]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.3-GR) with ESMTP id ABG74911; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805113345.042789a8@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:36:47 -0400 To: Bob Hinden From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804222146.00b8d0a0@funnel.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob, Thanks for the clarification. I think I misunderstood "not replace site-local addresses in any form". If I have it right, the phrase implies "explicitly do not consider any alternatives", to which I agree that accepting indicates that the WG is interested in considering alternatives. - Ralph At 09:15 PM 8/4/2003 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: >Ralph, > >>Furthermore, based on the record of the question from the minutes of the SF >>meeting and the question put to the ipng mailing list, how was this >>conclusion arrived at: >> >>>A fourth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, >>>but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >>>reasonable alternative. > >It's from my reading of the discussion (on the mailing list and in the >meetings) and the fact that the working group decided to accept > as a working group document >in Vienna. > >Bob > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 08:58:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Fw5CM026973; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Fw5OA026972; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75FvxCM026959 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75FtNV7005315 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75FtHFp020711 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:55:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id IAA05791; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h75FtGj22538; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 08:55:16 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308051555> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdRoWT2J; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:55:15 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805085146.03175988@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:54:10 -0700 To: Ralph Droms From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805113345.042789a8@funnel.cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804222146.00b8d0a0@funnel.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph, >Thanks for the clarification. I think I misunderstood "not replace >site-local addresses in any form". If I have it right, the phrase implies >"explicitly do not consider any alternatives", to which I agree that >accepting indicates that the WG >is interested in considering alternatives. That is correct. Also, any specific alternative will have to go through the normal w.g. and IETF processes so it's not done until the RFC is published. Thanks, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 09:10:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GAqCM027647; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75GAqnH027646; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GAjCM027633 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75G89Uu026285 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75G833u022708 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h75G7V9e070268; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:07:31 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h75G7U01226816; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:07:31 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA34476; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:07:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:07:29 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: Zefram Subject: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Zefram wrote: ... > I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 > to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making > fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it permanently assigned by IANA. This would break nothing that runs today. What do people think? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 09:21:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GLfCM028481; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75GLfRw028480; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GLaCM028467 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75GJ0Uu001023 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowl.fysh.org ([195.167.170.152]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75GIs3u000987 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19k4WT-0004kJ-00; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:18:53 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:18:53 +0100 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030805161853.GB10754@fysh.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned >deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation >action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of >FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it >permanently assigned by IANA. > >This would break nothing that runs today. Would a new implementation then be permitted to not implement the site-local semantics? The above sounds like full implementation would remain mandatory, which makes deprecation less of a win than it could be. Perhaps the question is: are we deprecating the use or the implementation of site-locals? Perhaps we are deprecating both to different degrees? -zefram -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 09:29:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GT7CM028918; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75GT7Qu028917; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GSxCM028890 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75GQNV7017916 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75GQH3u006552 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:26:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h75GDPbt1096647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:13:23 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Site-Local and Local Addressing -- "Replacement" Choices Message-ID: <3603781.1060085603@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This may be a nit -- but wouldn't it make more sense then to call you preferred course of action "B", and publish 2002:RFC1918 as the (temporary) replacement? I guess I am suggesting that the WG pursue its work in such a way that we do not create a vacuum; I feel strongly that the set of IPv6 standards documents should clearly define the address space to use for the cases that folks have suggested are currently covered by site-local. --On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 16:07 +0100 Zefram wrote: > The three options are really the same. We already have alternatives > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > IPv4 addresses. We didn't have these alternatives a few > years ago. These aren't perfect, which is why we must develop > draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr, but they're enough that > fec0::/10 seems rather unnecessary in any current IPv6 deployment. > They particularly handle the requirements of those organisations that > want site-locals because that's what they had with IPv4 and they want > the same again. > > So I support option A, deprecate site-locals independent of further > development of alternatives. We have sufficiently good stopgap solutions. > > I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 > to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making > fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. > > -zefram > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 09:57:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Gv0CM000064; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Gv0lC000063; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75GurCM000037 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75GsGV7029327 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75GsBgn001153 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id JAA08980; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h75GsAf25696; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:54:10 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308051654> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdOm6oRA; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:54:08 PDT Message-ID: <3F2FE2C5.1000702@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:00:53 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Kruse CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <85040437.1060080727@hkruse2003a> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hans Kruse wrote: > There is real danger here; I have already started to see mailing list > discussion going something like: > Q. What address prefix do I use for this network before I get my > provider prefix? > A1. Use FECO (Site Local). > A2. No, No, FECO has been outlawed by the IETF, just invent a prefix! > > I have seen the 2002 mapping of RFC 1918 suggested. > > "Private" space will appear -- I want a version that is thought out, > that is well documented and understood, not a mish-mash of hijacked > prefixes and IPv6'afied RFC1918 stuff. Perhaps you havn't seen 'draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt'? Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 10:08:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75H8UCM000631; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75H8USp000630; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75H8MCM000612 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75H5jUu019932 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75H5esF003563 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:05:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn3-806.cisco.com [10.21.67.38]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75H56pp021933; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2FE3C1.30800@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:05:05 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > permanently assigned by IANA. The term "permanent" is a bit long. It should not be used for some period of time, and since there's a lot of address space out there, perhaps that period of time should be considerable ;-) Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 10:16:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HGlCM001105; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75HGl6K001104; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HGcCM001094 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75HE2V7007291 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75HDvgn015593 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75HDsuG000018; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGT96386; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id KAA19672; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16175.58833.331897.582389@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram Subject: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter writes: > Zefram wrote: > ... > > I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 > > to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making > > fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. > > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > permanently assigned by IANA. > > This would break nothing that runs today. > > What do people think? If you truly want to deprecate FECO::/10, I'd say that it shouldn't be reserved to IANA, but given to registries with explicit mandate to allocate it immediately. :-)/2 Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 10:30:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HUeCM001566; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75HUcIX001565; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HUYCM001552 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75HRvUu029514 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75HRqsF009880 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:27:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 10:32:19 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn3-806.cisco.com [10.21.67.38]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75HRnuG009827; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2FE914.3080809@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:27:48 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Eliot, > > That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see > renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy > the value of Bob's proposal. > I guess my concern is that ISPs end up routing the address space in Bob's proposal and that we'll have another PI problem. So while there's nothing wrong with Bob's proposal in theory (indeed I prefer it vastly to the other SL approaches), if customers believe they have stable addresses we could end up right back where we were in the early '90s. I don't see this happening for DSL customers but it could happenfor medium to large size businesses who have the power of the purse. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 10:53:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HrECM002681; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75HrEQT002680; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Hr8CM002673 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75HoVV7022793 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.systems.pipex.net (shockwave.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.9]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75HoPsF015913 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:50:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tom3 (1Cust19.tnt15.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net [62.188.144.19]) by shockwave.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C3AC9160002C9; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:50:22 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <029c01c35b79$d26969c0$0301a8c0@tom3> Reply-To: "Tom Petch" From: "Tom Petch" To: , "Bob Hinden" Cc: Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:39:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk B A or C would be acceptable were they to happen but I think they will not in a reasonable timescale (and as an engineer, I want something that I can use:-) In passing, I am one of the third, not the two thirds, and do accept that we have rough consensus. Tom Petch -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com Date: 04 August 2003 19:14 Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the >deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >Thanks, >Bob > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 10:53:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HrqCM002712; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75HrqjW002711; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75HrlCM002704 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75HpBUu008414 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mielke.cc (CPE00608c86a77d-CM014310003648.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.102.127.86]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Hp40V011864 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dave.private.mielke.cc (dave.private.mielke.cc [192.168.0.2]) by mielke.cc (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h75Hp3022862 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:51:03 -0400 Received: from dave.private.mielke.cc (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dave.private.mielke.cc (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h75Hp2fd004960 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:51:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (michael@localhost) by dave.private.mielke.cc (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h75Hp2FL004956 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:51:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:51:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mielke To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <3F2FE3C1.30800@cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Eliot Lear wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > > permanently assigned by IANA. > The term "permanent" is a bit long. It should not be used for some > period of time, and since there's a lot of address space out there, > perhaps that period of time should be considerable ;-) > Eliot Wouldn't it make practical sense if the local addressing primarily stuck with the suffix :1 ? -- Michael Mielke http://www.mielke.cc/~michael/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:05:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75I5TCM003298; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75I5SCM003297; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75I5MCM003290 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75I2jUu012838 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75I2e94004455 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA12594; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h75I2dW04719; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:02:39 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308051802> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdlp0azo; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:02:37 PDT Message-ID: <3F2FF2D2.7070602@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:09:22 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned >deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation >action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of >FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it >permanently assigned by IANA. > >This would break nothing that runs today. > >What do people think? > Maybe just list it as "IANA - Reserverd" for now? There are a number of prefixes in the current IPv4 address space listed in exactly this manner. See: http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:10:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IAjCM003414; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75IAjix003413; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IAdCM003399 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75I82V7001126 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75I7v94008148 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75I7spp008707; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGU03764; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id LAA19774; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16175.62073.67518.580445@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear Cc: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear writes: > I'd like to put Fred on the spot (not having asked him) and propose that > his draft be adopted as a WG doc. I'd like to second that. Fred's document if nothing else shows how close we aren't to meeting the operational goal of renumbering without significant blood-letting. Also: Fred's document is aimed at a solution for somebody with enough leverage to join the providers BGP cabal. While that's a start, it doesn't explore this problem nearly enough, IMO, especially for BGP have-nots. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:13:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ICxCM003686; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75ICxMm003685; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ICrCM003673 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IAHV7002045 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75IABFp026267 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:10:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 20:09:47 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75I7vVg008694 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:07:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dfawcus@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.6/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) id TAA05028 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:10:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:10:07 +0100 From: Derek Fawcus To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030805191007.G6830@edinburgh.cisco.com> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com>; from hinden@iprg.nokia.com on Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 11:06:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 11:06:55AM -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] Well on the assumption that the "deprecation" actually happens... > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an alternative > a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing a > deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > addresses. I'd prefer B. Then C. This because A would seem to result in the chance that no replacement would be developed. DF -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:29:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ITJCM004317; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75ITJOV004316; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ITECM004307 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IQbUu020540 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75IQWgn007601 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:26:32 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNbfMrcLL3NnxhBTOmLmL8oOaB/ZAAAFEww From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h75ITFCM004308 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, > Eliot Lear wrote: > I guess my concern is that ISPs end up routing the address > space in Bob's proposal and that we'll have another PI problem. > So while there's nothing wrong with Bob's proposal in theory > (indeed I prefer it vastly to the other SL approaches), if > customers believe they have stable addresses we could end up > right back where we were in the early '90s. I don't see this > happening for DSL customers but it could happenfor medium to > large size businesses who have the power of the purse. I raised this very issue a long time ago, but that is not the worst problem we have. Finish the reasoning down that same path: - Sites will get unaggregatable portable /48s. - Their wallet will get them routed. - Everyone is happy, no renumbering issues, multihoming is possible. So, everyone will spend 5 bucks registering their /48, some (the ones that currently have an AS or will request one) will actually announce it, and we're all fat and happy. Until the GRT reaches 10k (and probably until it reaches 50k by the time that happens given better hardware) it won't be a concern. What happens next is more interesting. Re-using some wording I have read yesterday, this will become a self-regulating system, meaning that only those who can afford it will be able to announce their /48 after some time. The question is: in 5 or 10 years, what are these people that are running production networks configured with addresses that they own going to do when they can't announce their prefix anymore? Bingo, welcome to NATv6. Replacing site-locals with NATv6. Think about it. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:32:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IWVCM004555; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75IWVsS004554; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IWPCM004547 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75ITnUu021810 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75ITi94023046 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2003 11:34:12 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75ITg7F018689; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGU06948; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id LAA19828; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16175.63380.280574.89031@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:29:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter writes: > Eliot, > > That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see > renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy > the value of Bob's proposal. I disagree. What we seem to be dancing around with here is an aversion to dealing with the actual requirements of people who deploy networks. Even though Bob's proposal polishes the site local turd, it's still a dangerous stopgap and doesn't address _why_ this requirement for stability in the here and now is so strong, and the fact that we don't have a credible answer. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:53:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Ir1CM006050; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Ir15q006049; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IqpCM006013 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IoFUu000375 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Io9gn023742 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58AEC1414D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17328-08; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A796214149; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:08 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805145008.41bf0a1e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I can't believe I'm reading this. Site locals were a design error. They have no redeeming qualities, and they never did. They should never have been in the PS version of the specification in the first place. It's taken us several years to start to fix this tragic error, and now we're talking about delaying the fix. This is absolutely unacceptable, and I hereby formally ask the ADs to forbid this WG from doing any further work to prolong them. The talk about an alternative solution is misleading. SITE-LOCALS MUST DIE. NOW. Keith > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > I think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > alternative solution available. This would mean that the working > group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution > documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was > no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > the same time and making them include normative references to each > other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not > advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence > that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. > I hope that many of you will respond. a -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:55:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ItOCM006271; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75ItOnb006270; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75ItGCM006260 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IqdUu001544 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75IqYFp025618 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:52:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46D61414D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17975-04; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297C614149; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:52:32 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Fred Templin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805145232.5b06ceb9.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F2FF2D2.7070602@iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> <3F2FF2D2.7070602@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > >deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > >action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > >FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > >permanently assigned by IANA. > > > >This would break nothing that runs today. > > > >What do people think? > > > > Maybe just list it as "IANA - Reserverd" for now? No. That would admit the possibility of reusing that prefix for some other purpose. What we really need is for all hosts and routers to filter FEC0://10 packets unless explicitly configured to do otherwise. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:57:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Iv9CM006446; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Iv9UT006445; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IutCM006409 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IsIV7020139 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75IsD0V014067 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:54:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B825B1414F; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-10; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186221414C; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:54:11 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Eliot Lear Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, zefram@fysh.org Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805145411.495ee274.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F2FE3C1.30800@cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> <3F2FE3C1.30800@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > > permanently assigned by IANA. > > The term "permanent" is a bit long. It should not be used for some > period of time, and since there's a lot of address space out there, > perhaps that period of time should be considerable ;-) I don't think we're so short of address space that we'll miss it. Mark that address block as deprecated, and make it take an IETF Consensus process to reallocate it for some other purpose. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 11:59:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IxTCM006620; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75IxT5e006618; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75IxKCM006604 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IuhV7020996 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Iuc94011146 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF551414D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17732-14; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EF014054; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:56:36 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Zefram Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805145636.31f19681.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > We already have alternatives > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > IPv4 addresses. 6to4 addresses based on RFC 1918 addresses should be forbidden. IMHO, this is an oversight in the 6to4 RFC. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:00:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J0iCM006661; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75J0hGF006660; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J0cCM006653 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75Iw1V7021785 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Ivugn029054 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609E51414C; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18525-05; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D173E14054; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:57:55 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Hans Kruse Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805145755.712edd31.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <85040437.1060080727@hkruse2003a> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <85040437.1060080727@hkruse2003a> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Folks, this is not rocket science. IPv6 needs a known prefix that can > be distinguished from provider-based addressing, and a mechanism to > uniquely (or almost-uniquely) assign addresses out of this prefix. No it does not. We must not repeat the mistake of RFC 1918. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:02:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J2SCM006773; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75J2RVB006772; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J2FCM006743 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75IxcV7022389 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75IxX3u028534 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:59:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9266E14149; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18353-09; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E599114012; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:59:31 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Leif Johansson Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, narten@us.ibm.com, mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" Message-Id: <20030805145931.5f03bfc4.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> References: <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I respectfully ask that the ADs to confirm the decision made in San > Francisco, later confirmed on the mailing list, and ask the wg chairs > to please move on, working on real issues regarding ipv6 than beating > this dead horse once again. I concur. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:05:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J55CM007122; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75J54O8007121; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75J4tCM007099 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75J2IUu005532 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75J2Dgn001830 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0A81414C; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18525-12; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B3F14012; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:02:11 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Eliot Lear Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-Id: <20030805150211.66f96499.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > What this means to me is that first we need to promulgate something > along the lines of draft-baker-ipv6-renumber-procedure-00.txt. It > needs some expanding to further automate the process. The more we > automate the less pain the network manager will feel during a > renumbering event. I concur. A real story for renumbering is probably the biggest "missing piece" of the IPv6 puzzle, and we need to be devoting our energies to solving this important problem rather than to propagating past errors. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:11:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JBdCM007340; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75JBdFq007339; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JBTCM007326 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75J8qV7026173 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75J8lgn006172 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434BB14054; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18930-15; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97FC14012; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:08:46 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mat@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030805150846.1156edb8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > 3. If we say that NAT is acceptable, half-acceptable, maybe OK in the > short term (or whatever) it WILL happen and there will be no way back. > > 4. If we say that individual /48s in the global routing table are > acceptable, half-acceptable, maybe OK in the short term (or whatever) > they WILL happen and there will be no way back. they're not quite the same problem, because they propagate at different rates. we could deal with a few/48s in the global routing table. we cannot deal with having NATs installed in customer IPv6 networks. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:20:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JKjCM008194; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75JKimk008193; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JKXCM008183 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75JHuUu012441 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fries.net (ns0.fries.net [66.210.106.26]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75JHpFp012222 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:17:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.fries.net (fi0mmt9a6ah31r0mifwo@localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75JDq5o012729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by shadow.fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h75JDqkZ007153; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:13:51 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Michel Py Cc: Eliot Lear , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-ID: <20030805191351.GA3719@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: OpenBSD shadow.fries.net 3.3 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddf@acm.org toddfries@yahoo.com X-IM: toddfries@{AIM,Yahoo} 115268457@ICQ {toddfries,fr[1i]es}@*.irc.fries.net X-Jabber: todd@tipic.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Interesting point. Feel free to look up 192.102.91.0. It is being NAT'ed for a client of mine. I've not convinced them yet to route it with a real firewall to their isp ;-( -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 "..in support of free software solutions." Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) Penned by Michel Py on Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:26:32AM -0700, we have: | Eliot, | | > Eliot Lear wrote: | > I guess my concern is that ISPs end up routing the address | > space in Bob's proposal and that we'll have another PI problem. | > So while there's nothing wrong with Bob's proposal in theory | > (indeed I prefer it vastly to the other SL approaches), if | > customers believe they have stable addresses we could end up | > right back where we were in the early '90s. I don't see this | > happening for DSL customers but it could happenfor medium to | > large size businesses who have the power of the purse. | | I raised this very issue a long time ago, but that is not the worst | problem we have. Finish the reasoning down that same path: | | - Sites will get unaggregatable portable /48s. | - Their wallet will get them routed. | - Everyone is happy, no renumbering issues, multihoming is possible. | | So, everyone will spend 5 bucks registering their /48, some (the ones | that currently have an AS or will request one) will actually announce | it, and we're all fat and happy. Until the GRT reaches 10k (and probably | until it reaches 50k by the time that happens given better hardware) it | won't be a concern. | | What happens next is more interesting. Re-using some wording I have read | yesterday, this will become a self-regulating system, meaning that only | those who can afford it will be able to announce their /48 after some | time. | | The question is: in 5 or 10 years, what are these people that are | running production networks configured with addresses that they own | going to do when they can't announce their prefix anymore? Bingo, | welcome to NATv6. | | Replacing site-locals with NATv6. Think about it. | | Michel. | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List | IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng | FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng | Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com | -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:32:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JWGCM008543; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75JWGa5008542; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JW7CM008535 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75JTVV7011381 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75JTPgn020283 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46871414D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21018-12; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4592814015; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:29:24 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-Id: <20030805152924.31fdab46.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16175.63380.280574.89031@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> <16175.63380.280574.89031@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I disagree. What we seem to be dancing around with > here is an aversion to dealing with the actual > requirements of people who deploy networks. What we seem to be dancing around with here is an aversion to dealing with the actual requirements of people who write applications. It is not acceptable for the network to break address stability. It is not acceptable for the network to expect apps to do routing. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:36:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JaXCM008879; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75JaXj4008878; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JaQCM008865 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75JXnUu018862 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75JXh3u022873 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:33:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:43 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:33:45 -0700 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:30 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:02 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:33:42 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:32:11 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNbfMrcLL3NnxhBTOmLmL8oOaB/ZAAAFEwwAALKHPU= From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Michel Py" , "Eliot Lear" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2003 19:33:42.0368 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A65D600:01C35B88] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h75JaRCM008869 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Eliot Lear wrote: > I guess my concern is that ISPs end up routing the address > space in Bob's proposal and that we'll have another PI problem. > So while there's nothing wrong with Bob's proposal in theory > (indeed I prefer it vastly to the other SL approaches), if > customers believe they have stable addresses we could end up > right back where we were in the early '90s. I don't see this > happening for DSL customers but it could happenfor medium to > large size businesses who have the power of the purse. It is possible to write sufficient restrictions and avoid both the drift towards announcing /48 in the DMZ and using the unique local addresses in a NATv6 configuration. The requirement is that the site local replacement be "special". We can for example request that backbone routers ignore announces that fall in the special prefix unless a /48 has been explicitly. As a result, even if someone convinces their local ISP, they will not be able to get connectivity to the whole Internet, and the addresses will not be usable as "globally routed PI." In fact, we should do that. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 12:43:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JhgCM009744; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75JhgPV009743; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75JhXCM009727 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75JeuUu021905 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Jep3u027589 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0C814159; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22310-10; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD0314015; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:40:49 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Message-Id: <20030805154049.29b58595.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <01f801c35ab6$dd6b4b90$70144104@eagleswings> References: <8387.1059998522@munnari.OZ.AU> <01f801c35ab6$dd6b4b90$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. by asking for this declaration to be repealed you are asking for your own will and the will of a small minority to override the consensus of this WG and the extended IETF community. not only would this be a grave technical error, it would be a gross violation of IETF process. in short, your request is ridiculous and out-of-order. and for this WG to even discuss it is a waste of this group's energy. we have wasted enough time with this already; we need to stop this nonsense now. if there are real problems that we need to solve, let's solve them, but propagating SL is not part of the solution space. Keith > I am looking to have the declaration of consensus repealed. It doesn't > matter if that is done voluntarily by the chair's, or external > directive. We can't allow chairs to be declaring consensus when no > one, including the chair, knows the meaning of the question. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:06:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K69CM011939; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75K68HA011938; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K61CM011920 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75K3OUu001215 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75K3J0V018201 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:03:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:50 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:03:18 -0700 Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by INET-HUB-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:24 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:29 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:16 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNas/SIvRHxV58wSMKURUIL6X4U7gA16Olg From: "Dave Thaler" To: "Bob Hinden" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2003 20:03:17.0454 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C6E76E0:01C35B8C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h75K63CM011921 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: I vote for B, but C would also be acceptable. My reasoning is that they are deployed and will continue to be used until a replacement is available. Choosing A means that might not happen, resulting in the continued use of site-locals. I disagree with Ralph that the previous consensus automatically answered this question. I believe some people voted to deprecate with the assumption that a replacement would be made (certainly this concern was voiced at the mike by multiple people). On the list vote, some people (me for one) also abstained because the question was not phrased with that assumption in it. Hence it's extra important to get this question answered now to resolve the ambiguity in the previous question. -Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:05:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K5pCM011889; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75K5ppf011887; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K5gCM011873 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75K35Uu001090 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75K2x3u012354 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:02:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h75K2r701624; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:02:53 +0300 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:02:52 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Keith Moore cc: Zefram , , Subject: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing] In-Reply-To: <20030805145636.31f19681.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > We already have alternatives > > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > > IPv4 addresses. > > 6to4 addresses based on RFC 1918 addresses should be forbidden. > IMHO, this is an oversight in the 6to4 RFC. They are already forbidden (but perhaps you're saying the forbidding should be even stronger than it's today). You certainly can't use 2002:RFC1918 addresses inside generic sites -- when a router happens to switch on the 6to4 pseudo-interface, all the packets sent to 2002:RFC1918 will get blackholed. In theory, you could deploy sites with 2002:RFC1918 addresses but being careful not to deploy anything enabling 6to4, but why would you bother when you could just hijack any prefix you'd want instead? -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:09:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K8qCM012262; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75K8pjK012261; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75K8aCM012241 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75K5xV7025426 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75K5sFp013732 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:05:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D231414D; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24618-15; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D4F140D1; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:05:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Pekka Savola Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, zefram@fysh.org, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing] Message-Id: <20030805160552.536476e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <20030805145636.31f19681.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > > We already have alternatives > > > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > > > IPv4 addresses. > > > > 6to4 addresses based on RFC 1918 addresses should be forbidden. > > IMHO, this is an oversight in the 6to4 RFC. > > They are already forbidden (but perhaps you're saying the forbidding > should be even stronger than it's today). yes, I'm saying that we should make it entirely clear that use of RFC 1918 addresses within 6to4 addresses are a violation of the standard, and that hosts should block them. let's stamp out scoped addresses in our lifetime. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:19:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KJ8CM013010; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75KJ7OX013009; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KJ1CM012982 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75KGOUu006442 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75KGJ0V024656 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:16:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h75KFIbt1049779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:15:15 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: Fred Templin cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <18115953.1060100115@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <3F2FE2C5.1000702@iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <85040437.1060080727@hkruse2003a> <3F2FE2C5.1000702@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-1.3, required 5, IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Sorry; yes I have read that draft and plan to comment on it. My remarks had to do with the "Choice A" approach of removing SLs without advancing that draft (or something else) _at the same time_. --On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:00 -0700 Fred Templin wrote: > Hans Kruse wrote: > >> There is real danger here; I have already started to see mailing list >> discussion going something like: >> Q. What address prefix do I use for this network before I get my >> provider prefix? >> A1. Use FECO (Site Local). >> A2. No, No, FECO has been outlawed by the IETF, just invent a prefix! >> >> I have seen the 2002 mapping of RFC 1918 suggested. >> >> "Private" space will appear -- I want a version that is thought out, >> that is well documented and understood, not a mish-mash of hijacked >> prefixes and IPv6'afied RFC1918 stuff. > > Perhaps you havn't seen 'draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt'? > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:34:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KYgCM014089; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75KYgVm014086; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KYXCM014066 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75KVuUu013002 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75KVpFp000494 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:31:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6934140A9; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28041-04; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE891406C; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:31:49 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Scott Bradner Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Erik.Nordmark@Sun.COM, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: state-of-art SLs Message-Id: <20030805163149.2cec1dbe.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <200307281911.h6SJB15T003911@newdev.harvard.edu> References: <200307281911.h6SJB15T003911@newdev.harvard.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > humm - it is not all that often that we have said that 2/3 is rough > consensus in the IETF note that the plurality was 3/4 not 2/3. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 13:38:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KcKCM014309; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75KcKK3014308; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75KcDCM014300 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75KZaUu014409 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75KZU3u004623 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:35:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B643A140A9; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28645-01; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C691401A; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:35:29 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Robert Elz Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leo@ubiobio.cl, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: state-of-art SLs Message-Id: <20030805163529.14a0566f.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5443.1059303524@munnari.OZ.AU> References: <5443.1059303524@munnari.OZ.AU> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The chances that SL addresses will simply be deprecated are something > approaching zero. SLs are a virus that must be eradicated at any cost. the best available method is quarantine. routers need to start filtering SLs by default. apps need to refuse to use them. DNS servers need to refuse to advertise them. gethostinfo needs to put them last. host stacks need to ignore RAs that include SL prefixes, and to use SLs only as a last resort. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 14:41:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Lf2CM017757; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75Lf1Gp017755; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75LesCM017739 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75LcHV7001382 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75LcB3u014554 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:38:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:38:13 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:38:16 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by INET-HUB-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:38:10 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:38:11 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:38:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:35:50 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNatD4IKEUynOkQTXedJJNnZSoskQA5Uxvw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Bob Hinden" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2003 21:38:10.0291 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDA07430:01C35B99] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h75LeuCM017742 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I think we should do alternative B, i.e. deprecate and at the same time propose a replacement. Barring that, C is also acceptable. Alternative A is likely to generate fisrt uncertainty, and then a free-for-all, and the risk of some "grass root RFC 1918". -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 14:53:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75LrACM018290; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75LrAAY018289; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75Lr5CM018282 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75LoSV7006784 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75LoM3u022561 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA26431; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h75LoLa17568; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:50:21 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308052150> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdNjdkHh; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:50:19 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805143935.032ea158@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:46:30 -0700 To: "Christian Huitema" From: Bob Hinden Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Cc: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Christian, >It is possible to write sufficient restrictions and avoid both the drift >towards announcing /48 in the DMZ and using the unique local addresses in >a NATv6 configuration. The requirement is that the site local replacement >be "special". We can for example request that backbone routers ignore >announces that fall in the special prefix unless a /48 has been >explicitly. As a result, even if someone convinces their local ISP, they >will not be able to get connectivity to the whole Internet, and the >addresses will not be usable as "globally routed PI." In fact, we should >do that. I agree, and it is already in the draft. The current draft includes text on this in two places. In section 4.0 "Routing": Any routing protocol that is used between sites is required to filter out any incoming or outgoing Local IPv6 unicast routes. The exception to this is if specific /48 IPv6 local unicast routes have been configured to allow for inter-site communication. If BGP is being used at the site border with an ISP, by default filters MUST be installed in the BGP configuration to keep any Local IPv6 address prefixes from being advertised outside of the site or for these prefixes to be learned from another site. The exception to this is if there are specific /48 routes created for one or more Local IPv6 prefixes. and in section 6.0 "Site Border Router and Firewall Filtering": While no serious harm will be done if packets with these addresses are sent outside of a site via a default route, it is recommended that they be filtered to keep any packets with Local IPv6 destination addresses from leaking outside of the site and to keep any site prefixes from being advertised outside of their site. Site border routers SHOULD install a black hole route for the Local IPv6 prefix FC00::/7. This will insure that packets with Local IPv6 destination addresses will not be forwarded outside of the site via a default route. Site border routers and firewalls SHOULD NOT forward any packets with Local IPv6 source or destination addresses outside of the site unless they have been explicitly configured with routing information about other Local IPv6 prefixes. The default behavior of these devices SHOULD be to filter them. Is this sufficient? Would it better to also include an "operational considerations" or similar section? More text on why this is important? Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 15:34:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75MYXCM020258; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75MYXbm020257; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75MYPCM020230 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75MVmV7024961 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75MVhgn021733 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26EE1407B for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06650-08; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616E21401A; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:31:41 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: SLs must be eradicated sooner rather than later Message-Id: <20030805183141.40c3f0d2.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Some people are making statements to the effect that we should continue to permit SLs until we have replacement technologies for the problems SLs were supposed to solve. With respect, they have it exactly backwards. SLs must be discouraged via every means available. Otherwise people will be tempted to think of them as the solution to various problems, and this will increase deployment of, and dependence on, SLs. That's very similar to the conditions that led to the NAT mess. Only *after* better solutions were widely known for the vast majority of these problems would it be safe to use SLs in marginal cases like isolated networks. Even then, we are far better off just deprecating them - the potential for misuse is just too great. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 15:47:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75MlYCM020991; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h75MlYqN020990; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h75MlRCM020983 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h75MioV7029937 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h75Mij3u027507 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:44:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-194.cisco.com [10.21.80.194]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h75Migpp018589; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F30335A.8010309@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:44:42 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: Christian Huitema , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805143935.032ea158@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805143935.032ea158@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > Is this sufficient? Would it better to also include an "operational > considerations" or similar section? More text on why this is important? Bob, Putting aside Michel's comments just for the moment, this would seemingly be necessary, but I don't know if there is anything you can write to make it sufficient. That will be a test of time. As I said earlier, I think the draft is a substantial advance over previous attempts. I do think Michel's comments need to be addressed. The issue is really an expectations game. Venders speak the language of money, and that overrides whatever language is in the draft :-( Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:09:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76095CM024670; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76094av024662; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7608xCM024647 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7606MV7028922 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7606G3u015232 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:06:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:06:12 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" Cc: "'IPv6'" Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <030601c35bae$81346e80$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F2EF72E.6060508@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7608xCM024648 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > Tony Hain wrote: > > There are some historic 'lessons learned' included here, > but the real > > issue is meeting the expectations of the network managers who are > > currently using IPv4 logic. That is not to say we don't > want them to > > change, but we can't assume they will even be willing to consider > > something that has a radically different architecture. > > I think we differ on what "radical" is. Besides, the architectural > change is there in IPv6 today- you count networks not hosts. This is > merely a matter of taking advantage of it, right? >From the operator perspective, the demand is for address space that is architecturally set aside as private use, locally controlled. That did not initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that people took whatever bit patterns looked interesting. > > > > > > > You appear to assume that it is possible or desirable to expose the > > internal use of previous allocations, to show that some > derivative of > > the HD ratio has been met to justify more space. > > No, I certainly don't think it's desirable. Indeed what I'm > saying is > that auditors already need to know the financial state of > affairs within > a company, and they are already sworn to secrecy. This same > mechanism > could be expanded to cover the total allocation required. > It's not that > hard for a NOC to document, and in particular for IPv6 it really is a > very simple counting exercise. The justification is MUCH simpler for > IPv6 than it is for IPv4. But auditors are not running the RIR's. Are you inserting an explicit extra cost into the system to have a 3rd party auditor certify the requests to the RIR's? > > It also appears you are looking at this > > from the perspective of managing allocations internal to the local > > network. The requirement was targeting the cost of maintaining an > > external central registry, and specifically at the cost aversion of > > small organizations, not large ones. > > Well, even with the above wording I still don't really > understand what > registry you're talking about. How does this differ from the in-addr > function that a NOC (even a small one) must support? I don't > know what > you mean by registry (internal or external). > > > >>1. "limited range" -- in particular, what is the semantic > difference > >>between these and SLs? > > > > > >>From a routing perspective, nothing. SL meets the requirements for > >>many > > network managers (it just doesn't meet the puritanical > expectations of > > the IETF elite). From the identifier perspective, these are > > unambiguous. > > How so? How about a diff in small words I can understand? > As it stands > I feel as though we're going to relive history yet again by > looking at > an obfuscated rehash of what we just rejected. No, I will not > regurgitate the entire argument against SLs (y'all can thank me now). That is because everyone has a different perspective on what their Yes vote meant while the No votes were very clear about why we need something to meet the operational requirements. As routing locators, it is not the IETF's role to tell network managers that they can't limit the domain of applicability where an address is valid for use. As an identifier, the IETF is in a position to say there will be no intentional duplication to cause ambiguity, which would create a domain of applicability for the identifier. Tony > > Eliot > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:32:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760WUCM025778; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760WUPW025777; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760WOCM025759 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760TlUu012582 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760Tg3u029764 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:29:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn2-574.cisco.com [10.21.114.62]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h760Tdpp017606; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F304BF3.8000708@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:29:39 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'IPv6'" Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: <030601c35bae$81346e80$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <030601c35bae$81346e80$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, >>From the operator perspective, the demand is for address space that is > architecturally set aside as private use, locally controlled. That did not > initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that people took whatever bit > patterns looked interesting. I could see an argument for both enterprises and service providers, but the argument is different. In the case of enterprises, they wanted the space because they couldn't get enough out of the registries, as we were running out of space with v4. They also wanted the space because renumbering is a painful operation. I would agree that is still a fundamental problem that MUST be addressed. This is why I think we should work on Fred's draft. With service providers, the argument is one of proxy for enterprises, where they were unable to get space for them, and needed a solution. That problem should be all but gone. > But auditors are not running the RIR's. Are you inserting an explicit extra > cost into the system to have a 3rd party auditor certify the requests to the > RIR's? Of course not. But look, we've just taken a left turn in the discussion. Now what you're saying is that we don't have a scalable process to give every host a globally routable address. We need that no matter the outcome of this discussion! Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:33:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760XKCM025902; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760XKmY025901; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760XACM025865 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760UXUu013216 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760UR3u000315 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:30:25 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" , "'Michael Thomas'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:30:07 -0700 Message-ID: <032301c35bb1$e3470fd0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030805152924.31fdab46.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk August 05, 2003 12:02 PM Keith Moore wrote: > I concur. A real story for renumbering is probably the > biggest "missing piece" of the IPv6 puzzle, and we need to be > devoting our energies to solving this important problem > rather than to propagating past errors. August 05, 2003 12:29 PM Keith Moore wrote: > ... > It is not acceptable for the network to break address stability. You know it would help if your arguments were self consistent. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:37:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760b0CM025924; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760b021025923; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760arCM025916 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760YGV7009309 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760YA3u002596 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:34:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:34:09 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:33:50 -0700 Message-ID: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030805154049.29b58595.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > Tony, > > there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. No, there was a question asked where there would be multiple undefined meanings for a Yes vote, and multiple undefined meanings for a No vote. Basically a blank check for the chair to tell the WG what it had decided. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:45:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760jNCM026457; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760jNWU026456; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760jGCM026434 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760geV7011976 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (nutcracker.wtf.stacken.kth.se [130.237.237.2]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760gYd2003127 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:42:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (Postfix, from userid 913) id 50660F3CAF; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:42:22 +0200 (CEST) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Love_H=F6rnquist_=C5strand?= References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:42:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> (Bob Hinden's message of "Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden writes: > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > I think the choices are: My choice is A. Please, just let SL die, as an application programmer, I find SL to be a mistake as currently designed. Lets move forward. Love -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:45:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760j8CM026415; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760j6Op026408; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760itCM026390 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760gIUu017210 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760gC0V024672 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:42:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D52140A2; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16718-10; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.utk.edu (DIALUP-144-236.TNKNO2.USIT.NET [216.80.144.236]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2411408E; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:42:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Keith Moore , "'Michael Thomas'" , , To: "Tony Hain" From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: <032301c35bb1$e3470fd0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > August 05, 2003 12:02 PM Keith Moore wrote: >> I concur. A real story for renumbering is probably the >> biggest "missing piece" of the IPv6 puzzle, and we need to be >> devoting our energies to solving this important problem >> rather than to propagating past errors. > > August 05, 2003 12:29 PM Keith Moore wrote: >> It is not acceptable for the network to break address stability. > > You know it would help if your arguments were self consistent. there's nothing inconsistent between those two statements. yes, we need to be able to renumber, but not without adequate notice and overlap, and not in a way that invalidates the identifiers that apps use to refer to their peers. (and no, DNS names are not sufficient) -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 17:46:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760kpCM026478; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h760kpl6026477; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h760khCM026470 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h760i6Uu017700 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h760i1sF003894 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:44:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B856F1414F; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16938-09; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.utk.edu (DIALUP-144-236.TNKNO2.USIT.NET [216.80.144.236]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CBA1408E; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:44:13 -0400 Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Keith Moore , , To: "Tony Hain" From: Keith Moore In-Reply-To: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: <19B84367-C7A7-11D7-BB45-000393DB5366@cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. > > No, there was a question asked where there would be multiple undefined > meanings for a Yes vote, and multiple undefined meanings for a No vote. nope. the question asked was whether we should deprecate SL, and there was strong consensus to deprecate SL. the precise meaning of "deprecate" was not nailed down, but Inobody who was there thought that "deprecate" meant "it's okay to keep promoting the use of these things". -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 20:53:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h763rBCM006303; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h763rBYi006302; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h763r6CM006295 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h763oTV7012878 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h763oN3u013741 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:50:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h763oMC9002800 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:50:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-173.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.173]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h763oKaQ011720 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:50:21 -0500 Message-ID: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:50:18 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPng Subject: global-local draft and FD00/8 space Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Particularly focusing on the FD00/8 space... I'll raise my sole dissention up front: 3.2.2 and 3.2.3 are unnecessarily prescriptive for local addresses. Since the goal is simply to get something which is 'good enough' unique, all you need is a mechanism for choosing a number that no-one else is likely to be using. For /48, hashing from an EUI-48 is currently good enough, although you are compressing 48 bits into 40 so it could possibly cause problems when the EUI-48 space is saturated. For /64 (ie by-subnet numbering), you can fit a full EUI-48 with some bits to spare. Operationally, the requirement is that the generated /64 prefix is unique compared to anything that else that a given node will see. Global uniqueness is a sufficient but not necessary criterion. Notice also that any two autoconfigured addresses are guaranteed to be unique, since the EUI-64 interface identifier will be dissimilar even if the /64 routing component is similar. Breaches of the EUI allocation notwithstanding. My ultimate observation is that I fail to see how a FD00::/8 address with site filtering differs in any meaningful way from an FEC0::/10 address, with two exceptions: (1) FEC0::/10 currently seems to allow overlapping disjoint scopes (ie an address is ambiguous at a particular node except for scope id). However, many implementations seem to ignore this and assume a single scope. (2) FEC0::/10 does not mandate uniqueness generation for subnet prefixes. This is a weakness, so don't deploy it without it. Do I therefore object to FD00::/8? Not at all. Paint your wheel blue rather than red if you like - I just want the functionality and two extra bits can't hurt. If redefining a chunk of the world is necessary to remove scope specifiers from local addressing, go for it. Though I will point out that once we ignore overlapping ambiguous scopes neither FEC0::/10 or FC00::/7 addresses make any difference to application writers. You are still left with two broad classes of addresses: those which promise to be filtered, and those which you can't tell. Unless we allow only one address per node an application writer MUST assume that any arbitrary source-destination pair may fail while another may succeed. And as demonstrated previously, in the absence of other information the local-local pair with longest prefix match is your most likely candidate for a working connection. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 21:21:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h764LkCM007386; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h764Lkon007385; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h764LeCM007378 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h764J3Uu016695 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h764IvsF017010 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:18:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7649bj9032210; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:09:39 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" Subject: RE: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:51:10 +0530 Message-ID: <00f901c35bd2$2d606e20$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > permanently assigned by IANA. > > This would break nothing that runs today. > > What do people think? I assume that "permanently assigned to IANA" has the same semantics as "unassigned" (http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-address-space). If not, what is the difference? CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 21:43:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h764hhCM008552; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h764hhwQ008551; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h764hZCM008544 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h764ewV7025808 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h764ergn020198 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNbqTgh8r7BOIC9TX+x7BMeoMjEvgAJT0jQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" Cc: "Bob Hinden" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h764hbCM008545 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot / Bob, >> Bob Hinden wrote: >> Is this sufficient? Would it better to also include an >> "operational considerations" or similar section? More text >> on why this is important? > Eliot Lear wrote: > Venders speak the language of money, So do operators and so do enterprises. Allow me to share the way it works for enterprises: - I am already paying $2.5k/yr to ARIN for portable IPv4 address space. - Although I could do without, I am ready to pay another $2.5k/yr for portable IPv6 address space (when IPv6 takes off, that is). - If globally unique IPv6 address space is free, I am willing to give these $2.5k/yr to my ISP to announce my /48. - On top of that, if doing so also solves the IPv6 multihoming issue, where do I sign? On the operator side, I do acknowledge that we have some of them around that do what they are supposed to and filter, thanks to people that promote routing table health such as Jeroen and Gert. That being said, the hard facts are that a) as of today 42% of my IPv6 BGP routing table is made of /48s, /64s and other crud and b) lots of ISP will think twice before refusing my $2.5k/yr to announce my prefix. > and that overrides whatever language is in the draft :-( Which is doubly lame, because 1) I should not offer the money and 2) they should not accept it; bottom line though is that both them and I run a business, not a charity. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 22:08:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7658ICM009602; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7658GO5009601; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7658BCM009594 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7655YUu029909 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h008.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.122]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7655T3u022571 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:05:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (cpmta 15437 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2003 22:05:27 -0700 Received: from 212.150.211.163 (HELO w2knerick) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.122) with SMTP; 5 Aug 2003 22:05:27 -0700 X-Sent: 6 Aug 2003 05:05:27 GMT Message-ID: <001901c35bd8$6240e6f0$03051eac@ttitelecom.com> Reply-To: "EricLKlein" From: "EricLKlein" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com><20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org><3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> <16175.58833.331897.582389@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:05:39 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk From: "Michael Thomas writes: > If you truly want to deprecate FECO::/10, I'd say > that it shouldn't be reserved to IANA, but given > to registries with explicit mandate to allocate > it immediately. This could cause problems with hardware that already is installed, and is configured to treat FEC0:: /10 as local, thus (if properly configured) not forwarding the packets. This could be real bad. .;) -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 22:15:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765FTCM009888; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h765FTaW009882; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765FOCM009873 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h765ClUu001642 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c001.snv.cp.net (h008.c001.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.122]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h765Cg0V010784 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:12:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (cpmta 19916 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2003 22:12:40 -0700 Received: from 212.150.211.163 (HELO w2knerick) by smtp.register-admin.com (209.228.32.122) with SMTP; 5 Aug 2003 22:12:40 -0700 X-Sent: 6 Aug 2003 05:12:40 GMT Message-ID: <002e01c35bd9$645c7e80$03051eac@ttitelecom.com> Reply-To: "EricLKlein" From: "EricLKlein" To: References: Subject: What will happen to ::RFC1918? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:12:52 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As we are all looking at what to do with site locals, has anyone any text on what happens to the old RFC 1918 addresses? >From what I have seen the 0::10:x:x:x is still going to need to be treated as site local (private) as in a 6to4 enfironment we still need to maintain the old rules (at least until 4 is really dead, and that can be years away). Thus we can depreciate FEC:: /10 right now, and allow the old RFC 1918 addresses to continue to fill in the needs that people seem to want in a non-routable address. Otherwise we will not only need to depreciate FEC:: /10 but also all of the current installations of RFC 1918. This will also be where people try to sneak NATv6 into the network as these addresses (0::10:x:x:x) were hijacked years ago, and I don't see how we will get them back now. Eric -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 22:47:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765lNCM011311; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h765lNIF011310; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765lCCM011303 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h765iZUu010754 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h765iS3u013079 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:44:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h765iJT06270; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:44:20 +0300 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:44:19 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tony Hain cc: "'Keith Moore'" , , Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal In-Reply-To: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Tony Hain wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. > > No, there was a question asked where there would be multiple undefined > meanings for a Yes vote, and multiple undefined meanings for a No vote. > Basically a blank check for the chair to tell the WG what it had decided. That's why we pay the chairs the big bucks. :-) -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 22:57:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765v2CM012060; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h765v25K012059; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h765uuCM012037 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h765sKUu013425 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (15.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.15]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h765sDgn029218 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFE83B315; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:24:11 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space From: Mark Smith To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: IPng In-Reply-To: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 06 Aug 2003 15:24:11 +0930 Message-Id: <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Andrew, On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 13:20, Andrew White wrote: > Particularly focusing on the FD00/8 space... > > I'll raise my sole dissention up front: > > 3.2.2 and 3.2.3 are unnecessarily prescriptive for local addresses. Since > the goal is simply to get something which is 'good enough' unique, all you > need is a mechanism for choosing a number that no-one else is likely to be > using. > > For /48, hashing from an EUI-48 is currently good enough, although you are > compressing 48 bits into 40 so it could possibly cause problems when the > EUI-48 space is saturated. > As I see it, the problem is not so much that a hash of UI-48s wouldn't be adequate for this purpose, the issue is that net admins / end users would want to know which one of their 10, 100, 1000 or 10 000 etc. EUI-48s in their network is best to use for this purpose. Obviously it doesn't matter, but providing an explicit procedure to generate the 'good enough' unique number that doesn't depend on one of the EUI-48 values embedded in a device, will eliminate questions about which is the best EUI-48 address to use from IPv6 mailing lists / discussion forums, support lines etc, and possibly this mail list, even when there is no best EUI-48 to use. It also prevents people from making up an EUI-48 when they don't know how to find out an EUI-48 from one of their devices. In that case, the range of selected EUI-48s will become very predictable - I'd suggest we would encounter a number of 00:00:00:00:00:00s, 11:11:11:11:11:11s, and 00:00:00:00:00:01s, in addition to the various, novel hexisms that exist, such as my favorite, "ba:db:ad:c0:ff:ee" Regards, Mark. > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 5 23:37:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h766b9CM013891; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h766b85e013890; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h766avCM013877 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h766YJUu023476 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h766YEd2000684 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:34:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h766Y6V10123; Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:34:06 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308060634> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (209.157.142.164, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdDKXuYi; Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:34:04 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805231208.03271cc0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:32:58 -0700 To: Leif Johansson From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif, You didn't address this to me, but I feel obligated to answer. The questions I have asked the working group in the email "Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing" was to ascertain the manner in which the working group wanted the deprecation of site-local was to happen. The steps the working group should take. This has been a topic of debate it and I thought it best to get feedback from the working group. It was not in any way an attempt to revisit or un-deprecate site-locals. Each choices I asked people to indicate their preference for in that email included deprecating site-local addresses. I support that the working group did decide to deprecate site-local addresses, helped to declare that consensus, and I am one of the w.g. chairs who rejected the appeal on that topic to overturn the decision. The chairs are not trying to change the decision of the working group. I think you may be misinterpreting the intent of this email. Site-Local is, as everyone can see, a contentious issue and it is my desire get clarity on the way the WG wants to move forward. Getting feed back from the working group on how it wants to do this is something I feel is essential. Regards, Bob At 02:41 AM 8/5/2003, Leif Johansson wrote: >During the IETF meeting in San Francisco, rough consensus found that >site-local was to be deprecated. >The wg was to investigate other approaches to the problems site-local >claims to solve. It should be noted >that the wg chairs explicitly before the meeting in San Francisco asked >people not directly involved in >ipv6 design (security, routing and applications people) to get involved >with this issue. In my opinion >from talking to a number of collegues and from the traffic on the mailing >list those involved from other >areas are no longer actively participating in the debate since they >believe that site-locals has indeed been deprecated and that the ipv6 wg >is continuing the important work on ipv6 in the IETF. > >Currently the question about the future and status of site-locals is again >beeing discussed in the wg >despite the fact that consensus was achieved in SF and confirmed on the >mailing-list. This is a sign that >the wg chairs have not been able to follow the plan laid out at the SF >meeting. > >I respectfully ask that the ADs to confirm the decision made in San >Francisco, later confirmed on the >mailing list, and ask the wg chairs to please move on, working on real >issues regarding ipv6 than beating >this dead horse once again. > > Best Regards > Leif Johansson > Stockholm university > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 00:04:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76744CM015060; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h767425c015059; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7673oCM015052 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7671DUu000611 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h767163u024528 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7670b521529; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:00:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30A795.3040007@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:00:37 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: narten@us.ibm.com, mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805231208.03271cc0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030805231208.03271cc0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > Leif, > > You didn't address this to me, but I feel obligated to answer. > > The questions I have asked the working group in the email "Moving > forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing" was to ascertain the > manner in which the working group wanted the deprecation of site-local > was to happen. The steps the working group should take. This has > been a topic of debate it and I thought it best to get feedback from > the working group. I appreciate your responding to my appeal and I believe that your intentions are what you describe. However by allowing some of the choices (eg deprecating when alternatives are in place) on the table you run the clear risk of perpetuating the madness that is site-locals. This was the reason for my appeal. In my opinion as stated in the appeal I believe that consensus was reached for immediate and unconditional deprecation of site-local addresses - alternative A in your survey. Furthermore I believe that by not acting on the consensus without delay we allow the minority proponents of site-locals to unduly influence the work in ipv6-wg by exhausting the non-ipv6 wg regulars who were specifically asked to review the site-local issue. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 00:13:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h767DXCM015398; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h767DXno015395; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h767DNCM015387 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h767AkUu003186 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h767Aed2020587 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h767AL521545; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:10:26 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30A9DD.4050408@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:10:21 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Keith Moore'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal References: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >Keith Moore wrote: > > >>Tony, >> >>there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. >> >> > >No, there was a question asked where there would be multiple undefined >meanings for a Yes vote, and multiple undefined meanings for a No vote. >Basically a blank check for the chair to tell the WG what it had decided. > > > On the contrary, I believe that there was strong consensus about the nature of the question. In fact (as I recall) at the meeting in SF there was signifficant discussion about the question posed - there was ample opportunity to clear up any remaining confusion about the question posed. MVH leifj -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 00:57:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h767vFCM017350; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h767vFKE017349; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h767vBCM017342 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h767sXUu013609 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h767sRsF002832 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:54:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h767sQch014224 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:54:26 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h767sPf5118930 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:54:25 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA52212 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:54:25 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30B42F.A2F77C15@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:54:23 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] References: <20030805145636.31f19681.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20030805160552.536476e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > We already have alternatives > > > > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > > > > IPv4 addresses. > > > > > > 6to4 addresses based on RFC 1918 addresses should be forbidden. > > > IMHO, this is an oversight in the 6to4 RFC. > > > > They are already forbidden (but perhaps you're saying the forbidding > > should be even stronger than it's today). > > yes, I'm saying that we should make it entirely clear that use of > RFC 1918 addresses within 6to4 addresses are a violation of the > standard, and that hosts should block them. RFC 3056 says: Suppose that a subscriber site has at least one valid, globally unique 32-bit IPv4 address, referred to in this document as V4ADDR. This address MUST be duly allocated to the site by an address registry (possibly via a service provider) and it MUST NOT be a private address [RFC 1918]. Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 01:10:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768AoCM017942; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h768Ao6k017941; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768AjCM017934 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76887V7025958 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h768820V022455 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:08:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h7687uC9022381; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:07:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-156.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.156]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h7687jaQ004741; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:07:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:07:44 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Andrew White , IPng Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> In-Reply-To: <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: >Obviously it doesn't matter, but providing an explicit procedure to >generate the 'good enough' unique number that doesn't depend on one of >the EUI-48 values embedded in a device, will eliminate questions about >which is the best EUI-48 address to use from IPv6 mailing lists / >discussion forums, support lines etc, and possibly this mail list, even >when there is no best EUI-48 to use. > Doesn't exactly the same issue present itself with birthdays? eg: Which is the best birthday to pick? Mine or a descendents? And all the unix guys will pick 1/1/1970.. ;-) Having a procedure that can avoid asking the user to type anything in at all (ie one that reads and EUI from a device) sounds like a good thing to me. Using an EUI-48 also doubles the number of "unique" bits that are input to the hash algorithm. Birthdays are rounded to the day, regardless of whether we represent them in 64bit NTP format. The current time of day counter doesn't seem to me like it will generate all that many unique bits either -- two (or more) routers configured around the same time will have a whole lot of bits in common. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 01:33:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768XMCM019020; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h768XLkh019018; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768XBCM019011 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h768UXV7001599 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h768UR3u015923 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:30:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h768UOC9005799; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:30:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-156.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.156]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h768UKaQ019656; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:30:21 -0500 Message-ID: <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:30:20 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alain Durand CC: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. How would this different from the material that has been presented already in the SL debate? The whole anti-site-local argument is based around the consequences of a scoped addressing architecture that people don't like. > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with > getting addresses > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > done working with the registries. I don't think that is true. The local-ness of these addresses avoids the issue of having to scalably route the PI space. I can't see significant differences in process between globally unique local address allocation and a globally unique PI address allocation. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 01:59:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768xYCM020519; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h768xXG2020518; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h768xUCM020511 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h768uqV7008053 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h768uksF017379 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h768ujR8035570 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:56:45 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h768uif5279014 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:56:44 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24008 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:56:43 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30C2C7.8222CF9@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:56:40 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Site-Local and Local Addressing -- "Replacement" Choices References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3603781.1060085603@hkruse2003a> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hans Kruse wrote: > > This may be a nit -- but wouldn't it make more sense then to call you > preferred course of action "B", and publish 2002:RFC1918 as the (temporary) > replacement? I can't see a single argument in favour of importing the RFC1918 mess into IPv6. Such addresses would be worse than FEC0::/10, because they would appear to be globally routeable, but wouldn't be. > I guess I am suggesting that the WG pursue its work in such a way that we > do not create a vacuum; I feel strongly that the set of IPv6 standards > documents should clearly define the address space to use for the cases that > folks have suggested are currently covered by site-local. That is exactly the purpose of the trio of documents we are working on. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > --On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 16:07 +0100 Zefram wrote: > > > The three options are really the same. We already have alternatives > > to site-local addresses: 6to4 addresses based on PI or RFC1918 > > IPv4 addresses. We didn't have these alternatives a few > > years ago. These aren't perfect, which is why we must develop > > draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr, but they're enough that > > fec0::/10 seems rather unnecessary in any current IPv6 deployment. > > They particularly handle the requirements of those organisations that > > want site-locals because that's what they had with IPv4 and they want > > the same again. > > > > So I support option A, deprecate site-locals independent of further > > development of alternatives. We have sufficiently good stopgap solutions. > > > > I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 > > to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making > > fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. > > > > -zefram > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor > J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management > Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science > Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 > 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:03:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7692wCM020707; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7692wST020706; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7692rCM020696 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7690GUu000604 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7690994012302 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h769069e034824 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:00:07 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h768xxf5246964 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:00:00 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24524 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:59:58 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30C38E.3D4B8D34@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:59:58 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What will happen to ::RFC1918? References: <002e01c35bd9$645c7e80$03051eac@ttitelecom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I think you are correct that ::10:x:x:x is automatically grandfathered by the addressing architecture, but surely it is something we should discourage. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK EricLKlein wrote: > > As we are all looking at what to do with site locals, has anyone any text on > what happens to the old RFC 1918 addresses? > > >From what I have seen the 0::10:x:x:x is still going to need to be treated > as site local (private) as in a 6to4 enfironment we still need to maintain > the old rules (at least until 4 is really dead, and that can be years away). > > Thus we can depreciate FEC:: /10 right now, and allow the old RFC 1918 > addresses to continue to fill in the needs that people seem to want in a > non-routable address. > > Otherwise we will not only need to depreciate FEC:: /10 but also all of the > current installations of RFC 1918. > > This will also be where people try to sneak NATv6 into the network as these > addresses (0::10:x:x:x) were hijacked years ago, and I don't see how we will > get them back now. > > Eric > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:07:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7697gCM020816; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7697eOO020815; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7697ZCM020808 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7694wV7009981 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7694qgn019231 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2003 11:04:28 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7692ccd003282; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:02:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:04:50 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:04:50 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:04:48 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'Eliot Lear'" , "'IPv6'" To: "Tony Hain" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <030601c35bae$81346e80$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: <07D8D6C8-C7ED-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2003 09:04:50.0266 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAB9BBA0:01C35BF9] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 02:05 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > From the operator perspective, the demand is for address space that is > architecturally set aside as private use, locally controlled. That did > not > initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that people took whatever > bit > patterns looked interesting. You must talk with different operators than the ones I talk with. I have heard operators wanting address space for the following: - Private networks which are never routed to the Internet (management and various things like GPRS things), but possibly routed to peers, i.e. there might be the need for local routing This can be done by using real addresses which are never routed to the Internet. This is something which is possible to do in IPv6 but not IPv4 due to RIR policies. So, today, the ISP's use RFC 1918 addresses, but of course peering then end up being a problem. Because of this, we see telcos using 11/8 and such IPv4 space for gprs. In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. - Private networks which they nat customers behind so the customers can not so easy set up their own servers This is a packet filter/security issue and not a NAT issue. The selection of NAT is a bad thing, and this is exactly what we should prohibit in IPv6 world. Yes, the ISP can still sell filtered access of various kinds and possibly a large portion of the users out there want it. But, it should not be part of the architecture. - Private networks for certain services which is located close to the customers so the same IP address is reused at every pop The ISP can in IPv6 world take a portion of their (real) address space and do the same thing. That ISP's today use RFC 1918 addresses means the RFC 1918 addresses are (for the customer) not used as intended, but as real addresses. In IPv6 world this is not needed. - Tons of addresses so they can redesign their internal network a lot without risking renumbering With IPv6 they get many many more addresses than before, so they don't have to allocate /29 here and there in IPv4 for small networks which should only have a few hosts. They can have the same netmask all over the place. And still limit the size of their broadcast domains. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:10:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769AVCM021057; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h769AVD9021053; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769APCM021043 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7697mV7010763 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (15.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.15]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7697Z3u007409 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:07:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A173B315; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:37:32 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space From: Mark Smith To: Aidan Williams Cc: Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 06 Aug 2003 18:37:32 +0930 Message-Id: <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 17:37, Aidan Williams wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > >Obviously it doesn't matter, but providing an explicit procedure to > >generate the 'good enough' unique number that doesn't depend on one of > >the EUI-48 values embedded in a device, will eliminate questions about > >which is the best EUI-48 address to use from IPv6 mailing lists / > >discussion forums, support lines etc, and possibly this mail list, even > >when there is no best EUI-48 to use. > > > Doesn't exactly the same issue present itself with birthdays? > eg: Which is the best birthday to pick? Mine or a descendents? I don't think so, everybody has a favorite birthday - their own :-) > And all the unix guys will pick 1/1/1970.. ;-) > Unfortunately, there are some unix guys whos' birthday IS 1/1/1970 ! I'm not familiar with the resolution of NTP, but I'd suspect it would be something like milliseconds. I'd think it is pretty unlikely that two people, at separate sites, with the same birthday, were executing this algorithm at the same millisecond. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:15:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769FLCM021236; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h769FLJI021235; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769FHCM021228 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h769CeUu003609 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h769CYgn023830 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h769CXR8066502 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:12:33 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h769CWGt271592 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:12:33 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28550 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:12:31 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30C67D.3E08945A@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:12:30 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> <16175.63380.280574.89031@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter writes: > > Eliot, > > > > That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see > > renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy > > the value of Bob's proposal. > > I disagree. What we seem to be dancing around with > here is an aversion to dealing with the actual > requirements of people who deploy networks. Even > though Bob's proposal polishes the site local > t***, it's still a dangerous stopgap and doesn't > address _why_ this requirement for stability in > the here and now is so strong, and the fact that > we don't have a credible answer. "Why" is addressed in draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt That document may need more work, but it certainly attempts to answer the question, convincingly to my mind. Brian P.S. I fully concur that the renumbering document is needed too. See author list of RFC 1900. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:22:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769MUCM021663; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h769MUrO021662; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769MOCM021655 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h769JlV7013383 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h769Jg94023224 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h769Jfs2025216; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:19:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-156.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.156]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h769JcaQ019969; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:19:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3F30C82A.3060504@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:19:38 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I'm in favour of B. I use SL addressing today to achieve address stability in a 6to4 environment. The current drafts look like progress to me and remove the biggest wart of SL: ambiguity. - aidan Bob Hinden wrote: > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > the same time and making them include normative references to each > other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:23:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769NaCM021701; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h769NagL021700; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769NUCM021693 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h769KqV7013625 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h769Kk3u014933 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:20:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h769Kg7o234966; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:20:42 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h769KfGt170442; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:20:41 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23846; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:20:40 +0200 Message-ID: <3F30C867.4617F864@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:20:39 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com CC: IPng Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew, you don't seem to see the *ambiguity* of FEC0::/10 prefixes as a major problem in itself, but operational experience with 10/8 suggests that ambiguity is actually a bigger pain than NAT in some scenarios (VPNs between two Net 10 networks, for example). The virtue of Bob's proposal is that it eliminates this ambiguity while conserving the perceived value of SLs. As for being too prescriptive, I think it's important to specify an algorithm that will give good enough results when applied blindly. Are you arguing for a SHOULD here? Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK Andrew White wrote: > > Particularly focusing on the FD00/8 space... > > I'll raise my sole dissention up front: > > 3.2.2 and 3.2.3 are unnecessarily prescriptive for local addresses. Since > the goal is simply to get something which is 'good enough' unique, all you > need is a mechanism for choosing a number that no-one else is likely to be > using. > > For /48, hashing from an EUI-48 is currently good enough, although you are > compressing 48 bits into 40 so it could possibly cause problems when the > EUI-48 space is saturated. > > For /64 (ie by-subnet numbering), you can fit a full EUI-48 with some bits > to spare. > > Operationally, the requirement is that the generated /64 prefix is unique > compared to anything that else that a given node will see. Global > uniqueness is a sufficient but not necessary criterion. > > Notice also that any two autoconfigured addresses are guaranteed to be > unique, since the EUI-64 interface identifier will be dissimilar even if the > /64 routing component is similar. Breaches of the EUI allocation > notwithstanding. > > My ultimate observation is that I fail to see how a FD00::/8 address with > site filtering differs in any meaningful way from an FEC0::/10 address, with > two exceptions: > > (1) FEC0::/10 currently seems to allow overlapping disjoint scopes (ie an > address is ambiguous at a particular node except for scope id). However, > many implementations seem to ignore this and assume a single scope. > > (2) FEC0::/10 does not mandate uniqueness generation for subnet prefixes. > This is a weakness, so don't deploy it without it. > > Do I therefore object to FD00::/8? Not at all. Paint your wheel blue > rather than red if you like - I just want the functionality and two extra > bits can't hurt. If redefining a chunk of the world is necessary to remove > scope specifiers from local addressing, go for it. > > Though I will point out that once we ignore overlapping ambiguous scopes > neither FEC0::/10 or FC00::/7 addresses make any difference to application > writers. You are still left with two broad classes of addresses: those > which promise to be filtered, and those which you can't tell. Unless we > allow only one address per node an application writer MUST assume that any > arbitrary source-destination pair may fail while another may succeed. > > And as demonstrated previously, in the absence of other information the > local-local pair with longest prefix match is your most likely candidate for > a working connection. > > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 02:33:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769XCCM022146; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h769XCEu022145; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h769X5CM022134 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h769USUu007356 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h769UN94029310 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h769UJs2000496; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 02:30:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-156.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.156]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h769U8aQ026052; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:30:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3F30CAA0.3050601@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:30:08 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Andrew White , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> In-Reply-To: <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: >I'm not familiar with the resolution of NTP, but I'd suspect it would be >something like milliseconds. > > Sure, but nobody is going to type their birthday in to the millisecond. w.r.t the time stamp, part of it (the seconds part) is likely to be quite correlated between sites, and the lower part (micro-seconds) is more likely to be a randomly distributed number. Now we could just go random and invoke RFC1750 and be done with it (a la NUSLA). Unfortunately, people seem to implemented random number generators really badly. >I'd think it is pretty unlikely that two people, at separate sites, with >the same birthday, were executing this algorithm at the same >millisecond. > > It is even less likely that the MAC address that came from an ethernet card will be the same in both sites.. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 03:11:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76AB1CM025576; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76AB0e8025574; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76AAoCM025538 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76A8FUu016717 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (15.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.15]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76A8894020740 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6559A3B319; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:38:07 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space From: Mark Smith To: Aidan Williams Cc: Andrew White , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F30CAA0.3050601@motorola.com> References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> <3F30CAA0.3050601@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 06 Aug 2003 19:38:07 +0930 Message-Id: <1060164487.12722.54.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 19:00, Aidan Williams wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > > > > > It is even less likely that the MAC address that came from an ethernet > card will be the same in both sites.. > Ok, I think you might have missed the point of my original email, so I'll try to re-state it : 1) If people have lots of choices, they would rather not make a choice, particularly when they don't have the knowledge to make a value judgment as to what the "best" choice is. In this case, there is no value judgment to be made, but with say 100 - 1000 (or many more) EUI-48 addresses to choose from (remember, each switch has a EUI-48 address per port), it will *feel* like there is a value judgement to be made. And that will confuse them. Too many choices can almost be as bad as not enough. 2) Even if you automate the process of generating a local range address using a EUI-48 MAC address, which device do you perform it on ? For example, with 200 routers, and multiple Internet connections (ie. so you can't say the "Internet" router is the one to get an EUI-48 from), again, you can have too many choices. Which router / interface is the "right" EUI-48 source ? 3) Alternatively, if there was a manual EUI-48 entry prompt, to allow people to select an arbitrary EUI-48 from their set, if they don't know how to find out an EUI-48 address, and / or don't understand the value in selecting a IEEE assigned EUI-48, they will enter 00:00:00:00:00:00, or 11:11:11:11:11:11, etc. These are people / technology issues, not just technology issues. Bob's use of a ntp time stamp and the operator's birthday as the hash input avoids these problems. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 03:13:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ADPCM025794; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76ADPB5025793; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ADLCM025780 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76AAiV7026288 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76AAd0V012807 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2003 12:10:11 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76A85XY016277; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:08:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:10:19 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:10:19 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:10:17 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: "Tony Hain" , "'Eliot Lear'" , "'IPv6'" In-Reply-To: <07D8D6C8-C7ED-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Message-Id: <2DABC00B-C7F6-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2003 10:10:19.0596 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0C9E8C0:01C35C02] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76ADLCM025781 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I have now checked the document in the subject line _again_, and I think the basic problem is that (a) I don't agree with all of the problems listed being problems and (b) I definitely see the solution to many of these (as you see below in my mail earlier today) being to "just" use real IP addresses. For example, that administration and registration of addresses is a pain and should be easier (not needed even) is a RIR issue, and should definitely not be an argument for using scoped addresses. Now I am going back to Application Layer issues for a while. paf On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 11:04 Europe/Stockholm, Patrik Fältström wrote: > On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 02:05 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > >> From the operator perspective, the demand is for address space that is >> architecturally set aside as private use, locally controlled. That >> did not >> initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that people took whatever >> bit >> patterns looked interesting. > > You must talk with different operators than the ones I talk with. > > I have heard operators wanting address space for the following: > > - Private networks which are never routed to the Internet > (management and various things like GPRS things), but > possibly routed to peers, i.e. there might be the need > for local routing > > This can be done by using real addresses which are never routed to the > Internet. This is something which is possible to do in IPv6 but not > IPv4 due to RIR policies. So, today, the ISP's use RFC 1918 addresses, > but of course peering then end up being a problem. Because of this, we > see telcos using 11/8 and such IPv4 space for gprs. > > In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. > > - Private networks which they nat customers behind so the > customers can not so easy set up their own servers > > This is a packet filter/security issue and not a NAT issue. The > selection of NAT is a bad thing, and this is exactly what we should > prohibit in IPv6 world. Yes, the ISP can still sell filtered access of > various kinds and possibly a large portion of the users out there want > it. But, it should not be part of the architecture. > > - Private networks for certain services which is located > close to the customers so the same IP address is reused > at every pop > > The ISP can in IPv6 world take a portion of their (real) address space > and do the same thing. That ISP's today use RFC 1918 addresses means > the RFC 1918 addresses are (for the customer) not used as intended, > but as real addresses. In IPv6 world this is not needed. > > - Tons of addresses so they can redesign their internal > network a lot without risking renumbering > > With IPv6 they get many many more addresses than before, so they don't > have to allocate /29 here and there in IPv4 for small networks which > should only have a few hosts. They can have the same netmask all over > the place. And still limit the size of their broadcast domains. > > > paf > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 03:21:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ALVCM026520; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76ALVKt026519; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ALOCM026502 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76AIlUu019545 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (15.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.15]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76AIe0V016084 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:18:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0503B319; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:48:36 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space From: Mark Smith To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, IPng In-Reply-To: <3F30C867.4617F864@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <3F30C867.4617F864@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 06 Aug 2003 19:48:36 +0930 Message-Id: <1060165119.12722.65.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 18:50, Brian E Carpenter wrote: but operational experience > with 10/8 suggests that ambiguity is actually a bigger pain than > NAT in some scenarios (VPNs between two Net 10 networks, for > example). Combining the two is worse ... I spent two months _solid_ working to "productising" NAT with IPsec VPNs, in conjunction with Internet access (eg NAT to VPN destinations, but not to Internet destinations; NAT to Internet destinations, but not VPN destinations, NAT to both, but 1-to-Many to Internet, 1-to-1 to VPN, etc., etc,). My advice to everybody is don't ever go down that rat-hole. I still have nightmares... Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 03:38:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76AccCM027253; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76AcbLq027252; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76AcSCM027245 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76AZqV7001616 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76AZj0V022490 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (dhcp53.potaroo.net [203.10.60.53]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h76AZMRi034599; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:35:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:35:07 +1000 To: Aidan Williams , Alain Durand From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 06:30 PM 6/08/2003 +1000, Aidan Williams wrote: > I can't see significant differences in process between globally unique local address allocation and a globally >unique PI address allocation. I'd offer the view that there's a lot of difference. draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt is a good starting point in terms of describing the differences in characteristics. http://www.apnic.net/meetings/16/programme/sigs/docs/policy/addpol-doc-huston-local-use-addrs.doc attempts to to refine this draft into some considerations from a registry perspective. (If there's interest I'll put this out as an Internet Draft) Geoff Huston -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 03:42:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76AgGCM027439; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76AgFRi027436; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76Ag5CM027417 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76AdTV7002341 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 03:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.mei.co.jp (smtp.mei.co.jp [133.183.129.25]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76AdJsF008040 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:39:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by jazz.mei.co.jp (8.12.9/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id h76Ad8k1004756; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:39:09 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id h76AdAY19164; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:39:10 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6p2/3.7W/astros) with ESMTP id h76Ad9a11315; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:39:09 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by vsm.ctmo.mei.co.jp (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA12590; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:39:08 +0900 (JST) Received: from chorus.isl.mei.co.jp(132.182.1.10) by vsm.ctmo.mei.co.jp via smap (V2.0) id ; Wed, 6 Aug 03 19:38:56 +0900 Received: by chorus.isl.mei.co.jp (8.9.3p2/5.9:4.9:isl-mx-com:20000204) id TAA09946; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:38:51 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> Reply-To: "Yibo Zhang" From: "Yibo Zhang" To: "Alain Durand" Cc: "Bob Hinden" , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:38:54 +0900 Organization: Matsushita Electric Industry Corp. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. That's definitely a good idea because that way we might be able to replace all current local addresses with a single type of local addresses with a Range or Scope field like the multicast addresses. It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and could even help the WG move the current situation forward more smoothly and smartly. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 05:28:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76CSqCM002735; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76CSpf1002734; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76CSlCM002727 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76CQBV7025377 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76CQ5d2010275 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:26:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.16]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA12851; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030805072902.03a1e590@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:32:01 -0400 To: Bob Hinden From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I prefer option (B), but I would find option (A) acceptable. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 05:29:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76CTkCM002801; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76CTj4t002800; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76CTdCM002787 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76CR3V7025519 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76CQwd2010747 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:26:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.16]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA12883; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030805074055.0383c210@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:01:51 -0400 To: Ralph Droms From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Independence of Deprecation (Was: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804222146.00b8d0a0@funnel.cisco.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ralph, At 11:01 PM 8/4/2003 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: >Bob's e-mail to the ipng mailing list used to judge WG consensus on >deprecating site-local addresses asked: > >>The question is: >> >> Should we deprecate IPv6 site-local unicast addressing? >> >>Valid responses are: >> >> "YES -- Deprecate site-local unicast addressing". >> "NO -- Do not deprecate site-local unicast addressing". > >which I read to be pretty clearly independent of consideration of any >replacement mechanism. In response to Bob's question on the WG mailing >list, the YESes followed the format from Bob's e-mail - that is, those YESes >were unconditional "YES -- deprecate SL", not any form of "YES -- deprecate >SL after a suitable replacement has been defined". If you look at the results of this poll, though, you will see that there was some significant resistance to deprecating site-local addressing, without regard to a replacement (about 1/4 of the people who responded to the poll indicated "NO"). Fortunately (if you favor finding consensus), many of the people who expressed an opinion against the idea of deprecating site-local addresses with no replacement did indicate (in their poll response, or in other e-mail to the list) that they thought that site-local addressing had serious problems, but that we should only deprecate unicast site-local if we could provide an alternative for local addressing. In reading through the e-mail to the list (in response to the poll, and other discussion), Bob and I determined that there was a consensus to deprecate site-local addressing AND provide a replacement. And, that is what our consensus call said. Our consensus call indicated that work to deprecate site-locals and replace them would be undertaken "in parallel". Some people have since asked, quite reasonably I think, whether "in parallel" implies that these things would happen at the same time, or if one could/should complete before the other (i.e. do we deprecate then replace, replace and then deprecate, or do both at once). It hasn't been clear (to me and Bob, anyway) from the discussion what the consensus of the WG is regarding this question, which is why Bob has posed a question to the list to try to clarify things. If we don't reach any consensus on the order/dependency, then I guess we will continue with all of the work items "in parallel" and determine when/if we get WG consensus to advance each document to the IESG. It would be easier to plan WG milestones and focus our work, however, if we understand what order/dependencies the WG would like to place on these work items. >Furthermore, based on the record of the question from the minutes of the SF >meeting and the question put to the ipng mailing list, how was this >conclusion arrived at: > >>A fourth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, >>but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >>reasonable alternative. I don't think that you could draw this conclusion from the discussion at the SF meeting, but it has been pretty clear on the mailing list that we do not have consensus to deprecate site-local addressing unless we also develop a replacement. In Vienna, the working group did accepted a replacement proposal as a WG work item, which also seems to indicate that the WG has consensus to replace site-locals with an alternative local addressing mechanism. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 06:05:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76D5VCM004051; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76D5Trt004050; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76D5OCM004043 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76D2mUu022952 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 06:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.noc.catch.no (nova.noc.catch.no [193.69.2.2]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76D2g0V018136 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:02:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [193.69.2.66] (callisto.noc.catch.no [193.69.2.66]) by nova.noc.catch.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81005FF6A; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:02:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Lars Erik Gullerud To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1060174960.47988.1984.camel@callisto.noc.catch.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 06 Aug 2003 15:02:41 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 20:06, Bob Hinden wrote: > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > think the choices are: I'd like to see A happen. Going for B, and even worse C, will just prolong the current state of uncertainty where a lot of people have heard that site-locals might be deprecated, but are uncertain as to whether they need to concern themselves with support for them or not in ongoing development etc. Let's just get rid of the darn things and move on - please. /leg -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 07:19:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EJ3CM008232; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76EJ39u008231; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EIxCM008224 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76EGNV7024934 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76EGHjK016841 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h76EFJbt1049366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:15:14 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: Keith Moore Subject: Enough Already Message-ID: <82915093.1060164914@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <20030805163149.2cec1dbe.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <200307281911.h6SJB15T003911@newdev.harvard.edu> <20030805163149.2cec1dbe.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-0.5, required 5, IN_REP_TO, REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk None of this is helping. I respectfully disagree with this point of view. Further, in the universe I happen to be in, even 3/4 is at best "rough" consensus --- lets stop screaming and figure out a compromise. A quieter message with such a suggestion is forthcoming. --On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 16:31 -0400 Keith Moore wrote: > note that the plurality was 3/4 not 2/3. > and > SLs are a virus that must be eradicated at any cost. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 07:46:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EkfCM009422; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76EkfOl009421; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EkaCM009414 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Ei0Uu019234 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Ehs0V003114 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.88]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h76FfH6D010545 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:41:17 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> Subject: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:47:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm glad Yibo did. Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve all-so-many problems. I would go further to allow nodes to only send, receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be wrong, but it seems to me the silver bullet for: - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast interfaces) - Simplifying address selection - Cleaning the routing tables - Simplifying router design and setup Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address architecture, and more important, the forseeable and unforseeable changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that identifies the source/destination address scopes. OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... Regards, -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yibo Zhang" To: "Alain Durand" Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > Alain Durand wrote: > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > addresses with different ranges. > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might be able to > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local addresses > with a Range or Scope field like the multicast addresses. > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and could > even help the WG move the current situation forward more smoothly and > smartly. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 07:56:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EuNCM009705; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76EuLNh009696; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76EuFCM009689 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76ErdV7004406 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 07:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76ErX0V007594 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:53:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457E714159; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08567-12; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE0B13FCA; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:53:31 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Hans Kruse Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enough Already Message-Id: <20030806105331.2ccb3ce6.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <82915093.1060164914@hkruse2003a> References: <200307281911.h6SJB15T003911@newdev.harvard.edu> <20030805163149.2cec1dbe.moore@cs.utk.edu> <82915093.1060164914@hkruse2003a> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > None of this is helping. I respectfully disagree with this point of > view. Further, in the universe I happen to be in, even 3/4 is at best > "rough" consensus --- lets stop screaming and figure out a compromise. IMHO, 3/4 is a strong consensus given the number of people participating in that opinion. Nobody is screaming. However some people are behaving unreasonably. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:05:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76F51CM010184; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76F517J010183; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76F4rCM010176 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76F2HUu024354 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76F2CsF016612 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:02:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A698B1415D; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09440-10; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C480F1415A; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:02:10 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Independence of Deprecation (Was: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing) Message-Id: <20030806110210.5cdbf2d3.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030805074055.0383c210@mail.windriver.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030805074055.0383c210@mail.windriver.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Our consensus call indicated that work to deprecate site-locals > and replace them would be undertaken "in parallel". Some people > have since asked, quite reasonably I think, whether "in parallel" > implies that these things would happen at the same time, or if > one could/should complete before the other (i.e. do we deprecate > then replace, replace and then deprecate, or do both at once). Tthe problem with making deprecation dependent on having a replacement is that this allows the SL proponents to delay the replacement, and thus the deprecation, for an arbitrarily long time - long enough to ensure that SLs are widely deployed. In order to justify the delay, they can cite arbitrary and unsubstantiated "requirements" that make the bar for a replacement arbitrarily high - while ignoring the requirements that are driving deprecation of SL. This is unacceptable. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:08:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76F7xCM010332; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76F7wcl010331; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76F7qCM010322 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76F5GV7008555 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76F5BL0014834 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:05:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B8F1415E; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09471-15; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9709614159; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:05:09 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] Message-Id: <20030806110509.3de31e1f.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F30B42F.A2F77C15@zurich.ibm.com> References: <20030805145636.31f19681.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20030805160552.536476e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F30B42F.A2F77C15@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > RFC 3056 says: > > Suppose that a subscriber site has at least one valid, globally > unique 32-bit IPv4 address, referred to in this document as V4ADDR. > This address MUST be duly allocated to the site by an address > registry (possibly via a service provider) and it MUST NOT be a > private address [RFC 1918]. > > Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? well, we don't say that hosts should block them. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:15:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FFWCM010670; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FFWnp010669; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FFRCM010662 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FCpUu027315 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FCjjK024004 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:12:43 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNcAcBJBq8Rw8MuTdu9BpcGkqDw9AAKx7Ew From: "Michel Py" To: "Aidan Williams" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76FFSCM010663 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Aidan Williams wrote > The current drafts look like progress to me and > remove the biggest wart of SL: ambiguity. It's a distraction. The reason SLs are still ambiguous is because of the deprecation process, not because ambiguity could not be removed. As a matter of fact, this document is a direct descendant of drafts to remove ambiguity in SLs. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:16:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FGOCM010680; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FGOQl010679; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FGHCM010672 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FDfUu027475 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FDZsF020198 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:13:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h76FDYE26235; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:13:34 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308061513> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdJJRAhO; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:13:32 PDT Message-ID: <3F311B1D.832F16D7@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:13:33 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden CC: Dave Thaler , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello Bob, I am one of the people Dave refers to: Dave Thaler wrote: > I believe some people voted to deprecate with the > assumption that a replacement would be made (certainly this concern was > voiced at the mike by multiple people). Furthermore, I almost abstained for the same reason Dave mentions later. I vote for (B). Regards, Charlie P. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:18:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FIjCM010739; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FIjDh010736; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FIYCM010718 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FFwUu028141 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e1.ny.us.ibm.com (e1.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.101]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FFqfe009896 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:15:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from northrelay04.pok.ibm.com (northrelay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.206]) by e1.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h76FFGKb043152; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:15:16 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by northrelay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h76FFDZs028414; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:15:14 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h76FBx6l001753; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:12:04 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id h76FBwrL001748; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:11:59 -0400 Message-Id: <200308061511.h76FBwrL001748@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Leif Johansson cc: mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" In-Reply-To: Message from leifj@it.su.se of "Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:41:24 +0200." <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:11:58 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson writes: > Currently the question about the future and status of site-locals is > again beeing discussed in the wg despite the fact that consensus was > achieved in SF and confirmed on the mailing-list. To be clear, my understanding is: 1) There was clear consensus to deprecate during the face-to-face meeting. 2) This was later confirmed on the mailing list. 3) Tony Hain appealed the chairs calling of consensus. The chairs reviewed the situation in response to Tony's appeal, but upheld their decision. Tony appealed to the INT ADs. They also upheld the chairs calling of consensus. Tony has now appealed to the IESG. Robert Elz has just added a sort of "friend of the court brief" to Tony's appeal (but did not submit a a separate appeal himself), adding what he believes to be information of importance relative to Tony's appeal. The IESG will certainly consider that information as it processes Tony's appeal. At the present time, the decision to deprecate site locals stands. > This is a sign that the wg chairs have not been able to follow the > plan laid out at the SF meeting. It is my understanding that the chairs are trying to get guidance from the WG on the details of how they want to proceed based on the decision to deprecate SLs. Deprecating SLs was a decision to move in a specific direction. There are details to work through to get there. Then later: > I appreciate your responding to my appeal and I believe that your > intentions are what you describe. > However by allowing some of the choices (eg deprecating when > alternatives are in place) on the table > you run the clear risk of perpetuating the madness that is site-locals. > This was the reason for my appeal. To be clear, are you filing a formal appeal? If so, you need to be very clear about which action you are appealing, on what grounds, what the remedy should be, and so forth. Also, per 2026, the first place to start with an appeal is the chairs. Only if you are not satisfied with their response would you go to the next level. > In my opinion as stated in the appeal I believe that consensus was > reached for immediate and unconditional deprecation of site-local > addresses - alternative A in your survey. Furthermore I believe > that by not acting on the consensus without delay we allow the > minority proponents of site-locals to unduly influence the work in > ipv6-wg by exhausting the non-ipv6 wg regulars who were specifically > asked to review the site-local issue. I gather then that you believe that there is already consensus for Bob's "choice A", and that even offering choice B (and C) is inappropriate. In anycase, clarification would be helpful. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:35:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FZcCM011598; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FZcuo011597; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FZUCM011573 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FWsV7018108 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FWm0V026325 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:32:48 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] Thread-Index: AcNb9gfp7IoxK/nnRSSQNISazzTPAQAORzSA From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76FZXCM011575 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > RFC 3056 says: > [SNIP] > Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? I think you give way too much importance to what a MUST NOT in an RFC can achieve. - As seen with the Elz appeal recently, the IETF is not interesting in forcing users to configure their networks in the IETF way. - Even if there was some sanity check code, I work for a few organizations that would easily twist their vendor's arm in order to provide a special flag to bypass the check. - Not to mention that some people won't find difficult to pad the check with NOPs. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:42:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FgPCM012086; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FgPeZ012085; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FgGCM012065 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FdeUu005536 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FdYjK012813 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.14]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA20945; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110644.038eaeb0@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:08:51 -0400 To: Brian E Carpenter From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F2FCC7C.F82DF608@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 05:25 PM 8/5/2003 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >I'll go for B, or perhaps A.9 (i.e. a version of B in which >we avoid recursive normative references between the two documents). If your version A.9 existed, I would have chosen it... I don't much care for the idea of gratuitous normative references, but I do believe that it makes sense to deprecate SLs and publish their alternative at about the same time. I think that is, more or less, where we have been headed, anyway. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:42:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FgpCM012105; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Fgpfh012104; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FghCM012097 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Fe7Uu005731 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Fe2jK013144 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.14]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21226; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110946.038e52d8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:12:47 -0400 To: Brian E Carpenter From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 06:07 PM 8/5/2003 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned >deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation >action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of >FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it >permanently assigned by IANA. > >This would break nothing that runs today. > >What do people think? The meaning of "deprecated" was discussed both in the meeting and on the mailing list as indicating that the prefix would NOT be reallocated. So, I think that the prefix should be set-aside as deprecated and reserved... Otherwise, we could have some enterprises receive global allocations in space that some implementations treat as site-local addressing. Not good. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:44:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FhtCM012143; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Fht8f012142; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FhlCM012132 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FfBUu006154 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Ff5jK014056 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.14]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21858; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806112430.03ca9e28@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:25:25 -0400 To: Mark Smith From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space Cc: Aidan Williams , Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> References: <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 06:37 PM 8/6/2003 +0930, Mark Smith wrote: >I'd think it is pretty unlikely that two people, at separate sites, with >the same birthday, were executing this algorithm at the same >millisecond. And even if they were, what do you think the chance is that their companies will ever acquire each other, requiring them to merge their private address space? :-) Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:47:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FlJCM012421; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76FlJBn012420; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76Fl6CM012385 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FiUUu007528 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FiPfe000177 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ700BTBFQ0LJ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([66.93.78.11]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ700JJNFPZEB@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:44:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:46:37 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-reply-to: <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> To: Aidan Williams Cc: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net Message-id: <2A0567FC-C825-11D7-8221-00039376A6AA@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 01:30 AM, Aidan Williams wrote: > Alain Durand wrote: > >> IMHO, what need to happen is the following: >> >> -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing >> addresses with different ranges. > > How would this different from the material that has been presented > already in the SL debate? The whole anti-site-local argument is based > around the consequences of a scoped addressing architecture that > people don't like. Many arguments in the SL discussion were about their ambiguity. This is now well understood, at least I dare to hope ;-) Here the issue is range/scope. Some of the SL characteristics remain, not all, and this need to be understood better, in particular, in the case where "local" and "global" addresses are intertwined: - impact on node/application and address selection rules - impact on routing protocols (because those addresses are not ambiguous, it might be simpler than SL, but this remain to be proven) - impact on DNS, where you now have a strong coupling between this "local" routing and your views of the DNS. > >> -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with >> getting addresses >> than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be >> done working with the registries. > > I don't think that is true. The local-ness of these addresses avoids > the issue of having to scalably route the PI space. I can't see > significant differences in process between globally unique local > address allocation and a globally unique PI address allocation. See Geoff's answer. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 08:47:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FlvCM012483; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Flvu4012481; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76FlpCM012474 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FjFV7022471 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FjAsF000412 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:45:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h76FWebt1568479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Message-ID: <87556000.1060169555@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76FlrCM012475 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I would like to inject a suggestion into the current SL replacement debate. (Note that this is not my original idea, just something that I know the group started to discuss and then dropped -- it might be good to pick up again now). We have a trio of drafts that I fully believe can be polished into a combination "deprecate SLs" and "here is how to handle special cases that require local addressing". We have also restarted a spirited debate best titled "SLs die.die.die". In looking for clues (or clue), I found: Love Hörnquist Åstrand: > Please, just let SL die, as an application programmer, I > find SL to be a mistake as currently designed. Keith Moore had a similar comment; I have lost the extact quote. Andrew White: >Unless we allow only one address per node an application writer MUST assume that any >arbitrary source-destination pair may fail while another may succeed. Alain Durand: > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. and in draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt In the simple case, hosts that are allowed external access have a policy that allows them to configure both global and limited range prefixes, while those that are not allowed global access have a policy that only allows limited range. ***Address selection rules will prefer the smallest range***, so internal communications are forced to stay internal by the hard filter at the border. (Emphasis added by me). draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00 does a good job outlining scenarios that may require the use of local addressing, but I think it errs in the statement above. The local addressing requirement is real enough, but these are still corner cases. Aside from ambiguity, enforcing the concept of scope or range _in every application_ seems to be one that folks really want to get rid of. Hence, lets revisit the question of _default_ address selection. What if: "Unless an application explicitly requests otherwise, an IPv6 node must use its unique, globally routable address if one is configured. If no such address is configured, the node shall use its limited range local address, if configured." Along with: "An IPv6 node must allow an application to explicitly request the use of the limited range local address, if such an address has been configured, even if a unique globally routable address is available." What I am trying to get to is: - Application designers who want to work in the "end-to-end clean" Internet and who do not care to support the corner cases should be able to do so. - The default address selection rules should favor solutions based on global addressing, I think we all agree that if such a solution is reasonably possible, it should be used. With the defaults above, the "path of least resistance" is not to use limited range, which is good. - Finally, if a solution requires local addressing, and application writers want to support it, there needs to be a standardized way to do this (which is why local addresses must be defined and recognizable). In draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00, scenarios where all machines either have only local addresses, or where all of them (albeit intermittently) acquire global addresses along with the local ones, will work with the default behaviour suggested above. Cases where networks contain a mixture of nodes (some local only, some local and global), and very long-lived connections in intermittently connected networks, need special handling. In both cases it seems reasonable that applications will be written or at least configured to be aware of the local/global address issue. Along with safeguards against address translation in the nodes requirement, and routing restrictions in the address format document, this should work. I know I left out plenty of detail, but I hope the general idea is clear enough. Comment/Flame away..... Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 09:00:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76G0aCM013694; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76G0a1A013693; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76G0BCM013667 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76FvZUu012725 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76FvT0V009358 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:57:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76Fux502407; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:56:59 +0200 Message-ID: <3F31254B.8050809@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:56:59 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Narten CC: mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" References: <200308061511.h76FBwrL001748@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <200308061511.h76FBwrL001748@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thomas Narten wrote: >To be clear, are you filing a formal appeal? If so, you need to be >very clear about which action you are appealing, on what grounds, what >the remedy should be, and so forth. Also, per 2026, the first place to >start with an appeal is the chairs. Only if you are not satisfied with >their response would you go to the next level. > > I am filing a formal appeal and I hope that both the grounds for the appeal, the actions appealed and the remedy were clear from my email. If not I appologize. > >I gather then that you believe that there is already consensus for >Bob's "choice A", and that even offering choice B (and C) is >inappropriate. > > Correct. The choices B and C actually imply that site-locals will be used which in no way can be construed as "deprecating" site-locals. Given the complexity of the issues and the time ipv6-wg has spent to date it is not entierly clear that B and C imply anything other than full deployment of site-locals on the Internet for the forseeable future. >In anycase, clarification would be helpful. > > I am new to the appeals process. Could you please tell me what in my original message needed clarification. Thanks! >Thomas > > Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 09:07:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76G7KCM014420; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76G7J67014419; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76G7FCM014412 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76G4dV7000139 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76G4WL0026340 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:04:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h76G4VR8066420 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:04:31 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h76G4UGt238044 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:04:30 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA33794 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:04:28 +0200 Message-ID: <3F31270C.437287F2@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:04:28 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Geoff Huston wrote: > > At 06:30 PM 6/08/2003 +1000, Aidan Williams wrote: > > I can't see significant differences in process between globally unique > local address allocation and a globally >unique PI address allocation. > > I'd offer the view that there's a lot of difference. > > draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt is a good starting point in > terms of describing the differences > in characteristics. > > http://www.apnic.net/meetings/16/programme/sigs/docs/policy/addpol-doc-huston-local-use-addrs.doc > attempts to to refine this draft into some considerations from a registry > perspective. (If there's interest > I'll put this out as an Internet Draft) Geoff, Three comments on your draft: 1. I don't think the RIRs as institutions have any special standing to comment on the locally-assigned variant in draft-hinden. It's a technical choice for the WG and the IETF. If you're arguing personally that you don't like the birthday paradox risk, let's discuss it. 2. Most of your arguments appear to be hinting at a re-run of the ICANN wars for the centrally assigned variant. Well, that's why there is an analogy with .org in the draft. You may be right that the pricing level should be set competitively, but I really don't see this being a gold rush. There's not much marketing value in a random number. In any case, you're correct that the IETF can't decide this, but we need to give IANA the clearest instructions possible. Incidentally, since these are not routeable addresses, and have no geography, it doesn't follow that the RIRs have a role in this part of the address space. In fact, the RIRs might be quite uncomfortable with the idea of competing in the sale of random numbers. 3. I feel strongly that this absolutely needs to be a one-time fee. The idea of constructing an artificial service industry to maintain an annual registration system for random numbers is plain wasteful. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 09:14:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GELCM014634; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76GELOq014633; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GE8CM014598 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76GBWUu018363 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76GBQWh022370 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3781412A; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16467-12; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FA51408D; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:11:25 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Leif Johansson Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mrw@windriver.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Independence of Deprecation (Was: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing) Message-Id: <20030806121125.1f3d9575.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F312807.1040006@it.su.se> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030805074055.0383c210@mail.windriver.com> <20030806110210.5cdbf2d3.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F312807.1040006@it.su.se> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I look forward to reading an ID describing a set of necessary (not > sufficient!) requirements fulfilled by scoped unicast addressing - > i.e. the problems which cannot be solved by *any other* mechanism. personally I'm not interested in having this group spend any time trying to justify a "feature" which we already know is unworkable. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 09:30:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GUbCM016282; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76GUbuV016281; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GUSCM016265 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76GRqUu025045 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76GRljK018937 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76GRipp005629; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV04042; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id JAA22413; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.11391.925149.50455@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110644.038eaeb0@mail.windriver.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110644.038eaeb0@mail.windriver.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman writes: > > At 05:25 PM 8/5/2003 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >I'll go for B, or perhaps A.9 (i.e. a version of B in which > >we avoid recursive normative references between the two documents). > > If your version A.9 existed, I would have chosen it... > > I don't much care for the idea of gratuitous normative references, > but I do believe that it makes sense to deprecate SLs and publish > their alternative at about the same time. This assumes that the consensus will be found quickly for their replacement. I find that *highly* dubious. The net result, IMO, will be effectively ignoring the consensus in SF to deprecate. Years passing before we publish the deprecation document will effectively make it a dead letter. Oh, sigh me up for "A". Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 09:35:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GZHCM016583; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76GZHCt016582; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76GZ6CM016572 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76GWPV7011132 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76GWJ0V028566 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2003 09:32:19 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76GWHtp020853; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV04589; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id JAA22430; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:32:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: Brian E Carpenter , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram Subject: apps people? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110946.038e52d8@mail.windriver.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The few self-described apps people I've seen take a stand have to my recollection been strongly against dealing with locally scoped addresses . Have I missed anybody? It seems to me that people with strong app and/or host kernel background ought to be given a disproportionate voice in the consensus here as this is really their ox who's being gored. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:17:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HHGCM019618; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HHGEl019617; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HHCCM019608 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HEaV7000844 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HERsF000435 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:14:25 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'IPv6'" Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: <03f001c35c3e$23d0a570$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <07D8D6C8-C7ED-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76HHDCM019609 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Patrik Fältström wrote: > On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 02:05 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > > > From the operator perspective, the demand is for address > space that is > > architecturally set aside as private use, locally > controlled. That did > > not initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that people took > > whatever bit > > patterns looked interesting. > > You must talk with different operators than the ones I talk with. > > I have heard operators wanting address space for the following: > > - Private networks which are never routed to the Internet > (management and various things like GPRS things), but > possibly routed to peers, i.e. there might be the need > for local routing > > This can be done by using real addresses which are never > routed to the > Internet. This is something which is possible to do in IPv6 but not > IPv4 due to RIR policies. Not unless the site is willing to pay an ISP for address space, then probably pay extra to make sure it does not get routed as part of the ISP aggregate. > So, today, the ISP's use RFC 1918 > addresses, > but of course peering then end up being a problem. Because of > this, we > see telcos using 11/8 and such IPv4 space for gprs. Local address space MAY be used by ISPs, but the primary target for local use space is the edge network. I agree that when ISPs use unrouted space, results may not be deterministic. > > In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. Real or imaginary are perspectives of the onlooker. I suspect you intended 'globally routed'. > > - Private networks which they nat customers behind so the > customers can not so easy set up their own servers > > This is a packet filter/security issue and not a NAT issue. The > selection of NAT is a bad thing, and this is exactly what we should > prohibit in IPv6 world. Yes, the ISP can still sell filtered > access of > various kinds and possibly a large portion of the users out > there want > it. But, it should not be part of the architecture. I absolutely agree, and have been working on documenting similar requirements for address space that is known to not be globally routed. > > - Private networks for certain services which is located > close to the customers so the same IP address is reused > at every pop > > The ISP can in IPv6 world take a portion of their (real) > address space > and do the same thing. That ISP's today use RFC 1918 addresses means > the RFC 1918 addresses are (for the customer) not used as > intended, but > as real addresses. In IPv6 world this is not needed. Duplication of addresses is not 'needed', but may be perceived as an operational simplifier (ie: the dhcp servers in every pop are 192.168.255.1, ACL configs at every pop are the same ...). This is not arguing that we need to keep that, just pointing out that there are operational costs to changing the model. One thing that is required is that an ISP have a means to provide private networks to their customers. The address space for these can't be taken out of the same aggregate that is being announced to peers, else the network is not really private. > > - Tons of addresses so they can redesign their internal > network a lot without risking renumbering > > With IPv6 they get many many more addresses than before, so > they don't > have to allocate /29 here and there in IPv4 for small networks which > should only have a few hosts. They can have the same netmask all over > the place. And still limit the size of their broadcast domains. Nice in theory, but when route filtering practice hits the fan, there will be allocations within networks that don't seem to make any sense from the outside. There are many more bits for aggregation, so having different lengths and exposing the topology details should not be as frequent as in IPv4, but there are times that the aggregate policy does not match the longer prefix, so those will still show up. The real problem with restricting access happens when the aggregate policy is more open than the longer prefix wants to be. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:18:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HHvCM019686; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HHvkM019685; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HHqCM019672 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HFGV7001100 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prattle.redback.com (prattle.redback.com [155.53.12.9]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HFAWh008903 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from redback.com (yoo-hoo.redback.com [155.53.12.43]) by prattle.redback.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C051524C2; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:15:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-reply-to: Mail from Bob Hinden dated Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 PDT <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:15:09 -0700 From: Naiming Shen Message-Id: <20030806171510.03C051524C2@prattle.redback.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk A) for me, even though B) would be fine too. thanks. - Naiming -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:29:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HTtCM020363; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HTtGE020360; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HTlCM020346 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HRBV7005902 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HR60V028143 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:27:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6301415D; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24554-14; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70B113FAF; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:04 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Hans Kruse Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Message-Id: <20030806132704.33afbf52.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <87556000.1060169555@hkruse2003a> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <87556000.1060169555@hkruse2003a> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > What I am trying to get to is: > > - Application designers who want to work in the "end-to-end clean" > Internet and who do not care to support the corner cases should be > able to do so. > > - The default address selection rules should favor solutions based on > global addressing, I think we all agree that if such a solution is > reasonably possible, it should be used. With the defaults above, the > > "path of least resistance" is not to use limited range, which is > good. > > - Finally, if a solution requires local addressing, and application > writers want to support it, there needs to be a standardized way to > do this (which is why local addresses must be defined and > recognizable). IMHO, the need for local addressing has not been established, and we should not burden either hosts, apps, or networks with it in the absence of strong justification. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:42:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HgKCM020782; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HgIHh020781; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HgDCM020774 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HdbV7010701 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HdVsF008444 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:39:30 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m'?=" , "'IPv6'" Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:39:10 -0700 Message-ID: <03f101c35c41$a4df8ed0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <2DABC00B-C7F6-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76HgECM020775 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Patrik Fältström wrote: > I have now checked the document in the subject line _again_, and I > think the basic problem is that (a) I don't agree with all of the > problems listed being problems The point is the guy on the street deploying a network sees these as problems. Yes the IETF members can usually figure out work-arounds, but that is done in the absense of knowledge about the cost constraints of the guy deploying the network. Unless the IETF acknowledges the problems as problems, then documents cost-effective work-arounds, the guy on the street will figure out his own solutions. That said, the document needs to reach WG consensus, so if there are issues, send text. > and (b) I definitely see the > solution to > many of these (as you see below in my mail earlier today) being to > "just" use real IP addresses. Aggregatable PI space would solve many, if not most of these issues. The lack of aggregation in PI is why the draft says local use and a PI with some minimal aggregation should be worked on in parallel. > > For example, that administration and registration of addresses is a > pain and should be easier (not needed even) is a RIR issue, > and should > definitely not be an argument for using scoped addresses. The RIR's are not the bad guys here, they are doing nothing wrong. It costs money to run a registry, and those costs need to be recovered. At the same time, many edge network managers will refuse to be locked into a provider, but can't see any value in paying an RIR to maintain a database. Particularly when there is so much space that picking random numbers is unlikely to create a problem for quite awhile. Tony > > Now I am going back to Application Layer issues for a while. > > paf > > On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 11:04 Europe/Stockholm, Patrik Fältström > wrote: > > > On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 02:05 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > > > >> From the operator perspective, the demand is for address > space that > >> is architecturally set aside as private use, locally > controlled. That > >> did not initially exist in IPv4, and history shows that > people took > >> whatever bit > >> patterns looked interesting. > > > > You must talk with different operators than the ones I talk with. > > > > I have heard operators wanting address space for the following: > > > > - Private networks which are never routed to the Internet > > (management and various things like GPRS things), but > > possibly routed to peers, i.e. there might be the need > > for local routing > > > > This can be done by using real addresses which are never > routed to the > > Internet. This is something which is possible to do in IPv6 but not > > IPv4 due to RIR policies. So, today, the ISP's use RFC 1918 > addresses, > > but of course peering then end up being a problem. Because > of this, we > > see telcos using 11/8 and such IPv4 space for gprs. > > > > In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. > > > > - Private networks which they nat customers behind so the > > customers can not so easy set up their own servers > > > > This is a packet filter/security issue and not a NAT issue. The > > selection of NAT is a bad thing, and this is exactly what we should > > prohibit in IPv6 world. Yes, the ISP can still sell > filtered access of > > various kinds and possibly a large portion of the users out > there want > > it. But, it should not be part of the architecture. > > > > - Private networks for certain services which is located > > close to the customers so the same IP address is reused > > at every pop > > > > The ISP can in IPv6 world take a portion of their (real) > address space > > and do the same thing. That ISP's today use RFC 1918 > addresses means > > the RFC 1918 addresses are (for the customer) not used as intended, > > but as real addresses. In IPv6 world this is not needed. > > > > - Tons of addresses so they can redesign their internal > > network a lot without risking renumbering > > > > With IPv6 they get many many more addresses than before, so > they don't > > have to allocate /29 here and there in IPv4 for small > networks which > > should only have a few hosts. They can have the same > netmask all over > > the place. And still limit the size of their broadcast domains. > > > > > > paf > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:49:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76Hn1CM021060; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Hn1qK021059; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HmtCM021045 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HkJV7013685 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HkEjK017919 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76HkCtp014440; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV14894; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id KAA22766; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.16098.240485.52640@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <3F30C67D.3E08945A@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> <16175.63380.280574.89031@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F30C67D.3E08945A@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter writes: > Michael Thomas wrote: > > > > Brian E Carpenter writes: > > > Eliot, > > > > > > That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see > > > renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy > > > the value of Bob's proposal. > > > > I disagree. What we seem to be dancing around with > > here is an aversion to dealing with the actual > > requirements of people who deploy networks. Even > > though Bob's proposal polishes the site local > > t***, it's still a dangerous stopgap and doesn't > > address _why_ this requirement for stability in > > the here and now is so strong, and the fact that > > we don't have a credible answer. > > "Why" is addressed in draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > That document may need more work, but it certainly attempts to > answer the question, convincingly to my mind. The problem is that this draft proceedes from the premise that the answer is consing up limited range addresses. That's incorrect and not helpful. We need to start by determining what the *requirements* are, and only then outline what the range of solutions are, and what their problems and possible consequences are. Until we can get an consensus on what we need to do, and what the engineering tradeoffs are, we will never come to closure. That in a nutshell is why I have a problem with the religiosity on both sides of this argument. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:50:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HoECM021193; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HoEjR021189; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76Ho3CM021168 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76HlRUu028814 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76HlKL0010170 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:47:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76Hke502479; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:46:41 +0200 Message-ID: <3F313F00.2000808@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:46:40 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: mrw@windriver.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Independence of Deprecation (Was: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030805074055.0383c210@mail.windriver.com> <20030806110210.5cdbf2d3.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F312807.1040006@it.su.se> <20030806121125.1f3d9575.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030806121125.1f3d9575.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >>I look forward to reading an ID describing a set of necessary (not >>sufficient!) requirements fulfilled by scoped unicast addressing - >>i.e. the problems which cannot be solved by *any other* mechanism. >> >> > >personally I'm not interested in having this group spend any time trying >to justify a "feature" which we already know is unworkable. > > > Individual submissions are free :-) I personally hold little interest aswell but that is beside the point. MVH leifj -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 10:52:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HpsCM021225; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76HpsxV021224; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76HpgCM021217 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Hn6V7014646 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Hmx0V009107 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:49:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76HmV502483; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:48:31 +0200 Message-ID: <3F313F6F.3040001@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:48:31 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas CC: Margaret Wasserman , Brian E Carpenter , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram Subject: Re: apps people? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110946.038e52d8@mail.windriver.com> <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: >The few self-described apps people I've seen take >a stand have to my recollection been strongly >against dealing with locally scoped addresses . > >Have I missed anybody? It seems to me that people > That depends on whom you caught :-) I suspect lots of apps-folk have tuned out in disgust by now :-( so you may indeed have missed a few. >with strong app and/or host kernel background >ought to be given a disproportionate voice in the >consensus here as this is really their ox who's >being gored. > > Indeed. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 11:29:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ISqCM023686; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76ISqIX023685; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76ISeCM023669 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76IQ4Uu015642 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76IPxjK019006 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:25:59 -0700 Received: from 157.54.5.25 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:25:53 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:25:51 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:24:26 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:25:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:25:56 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNcPkbh6bE/k6F6SIaj1WUW+M6SMAACRVt5 From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Michael Thomas" , "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , , "Zefram" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2003 18:25:58.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EAEBC70:01C35C48] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76ISgCM023671 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The few self-described apps people I've seen take > a stand have to my recollection been strongly > against dealing with locally scoped addresses . Let's be clear. Our group (Windows Networking) has received a lot of feedback from developers of applications on the Windows platform. The negative developers' feedback was mostly centered on the difficulty of identifying the scope of an address, specially when a node is connected to several sites (e.g. home network and VPN to the corporate network), or when a node moves from site to site. Since the scope is not indicated in the address itself, applications have to keep track of a "site identifier" of some kind. The bottom line is that ambiguity hurts. The local scope nature also hurts, but not quite as much; it is another case of limited connectivity, which is a common "feature" in many networks. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 11:35:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IZjCM024294; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76IZj7b024293; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IZWCM024241 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76IWuV7003487 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76IWnfe003252 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2003 11:37:33 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76IWjLH022302; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV22000; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id LAA22938; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.18893.67514.881711@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) To: "Christian Huitema" Cc: "Michael Thomas" , "Margaret Wasserman" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , "Zefram" Subject: RE: apps people? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Christian Huitema writes: > > The few self-described apps people I've seen take > > a stand have to my recollection been strongly > > against dealing with locally scoped addresses . > > Let's be clear. Our group (Windows Networking) has received a lot of feedback from developers of applications on the Windows platform. The negative developers' feedback was mostly centered on the difficulty of identifying the scope of an address, specially when a node is connected to several sites (e.g. home network and VPN to the corporate network), or when a node moves from site to site. Which is to say, topology information which it didn't have to consider in the past and for which it has little information at its disposal from which to make decisions. Do you mean to imply that their negative feedback is overblown? Because requiring hosts to be topology aware seems like Pandora's box to me, and they have good reason to be uneasy about where this is leading. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 11:47:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IlECM025204; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76IlDn7025203; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76Il7CM025190 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76IiVV7008072 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76IiQsF028818 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:44:22 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Hans Kruse'" , Subject: RE: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:44:00 -0700 Message-ID: <03fd01c35c4a$b61c5030$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <87556000.1060169555@hkruse2003a> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76Il9CM025197 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hans Kruse wrote: > ... > and in draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > In the simple case, hosts that are allowed external access have a > policy that allows them to configure both global and limited range > prefixes, while those that are not allowed global access have a > policy that only allows limited range. ***Address > selection rules will > prefer the smallest range***, so internal communications > are forced to > stay internal by the hard filter at the border. > > (Emphasis added by me). > > draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00 does a good job > outlining scenarios > that may require the use of local addressing, but I think it > errs in the > statement above. The local addressing requirement is real > enough, but > these are still corner cases. Aside from ambiguity, > enforcing the concept > of scope or range _in every application_ seems to be one > that folks really > want to get rid of. > > Hence, lets revisit the question of _default_ address > selection. What if: > > "Unless an application explicitly requests otherwise, an IPv6 > node must use > its unique, globally routable address if one is configured. > If no such > address is configured, the node shall use its limited range > local address, > if configured." > > Along with: > > "An IPv6 node must allow an application to explicitly request > the use of > the limited range local address, if such an address has been > configured, > even if a unique globally routable address is available." > > What I am trying to get to is: > > - Application designers who want to work in the "end-to-end > clean" Internet > and who do not care to support the corner cases should be > able to do so. > > - The default address selection rules should favor solutions based on > global addressing, I think we all agree that if such a solution is > reasonably possible, it should be used. No, we do not all agree. See below. > With the defaults above, the > "path of least resistance" is not to use limited range, > which is good. While I appreciate your goal of compromise here, the insistance of avoiding the local prefix is short-sighted. In particular it overlooks the point that during an ISP prefix change local application stability is only possible using the local prefix. If the default is to avoid the local prefix, every local app will break on a prefix change, which is directly contradictory to the goal of a smooth transition between ISPs. I think we should explicitly disallow a mismatch between local & global. In addition, to achieve the use of globally routed in the non-local cases the name resolution system needs to provide contextually appropriate answers. > > - Finally, if a solution requires local addressing, and > application writers > want to support it, there needs to be a standardized way to > do this (which > is why local addresses must be defined and recognizable). I agree there should be a way for apps to specify a preference for one or the other. > > In draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00, scenarios where > all machines > either have only local addresses, or where all of them (albeit > intermittently) acquire global addresses along with the > local ones, will > work with the default behaviour suggested above. No, if applications in an intermittently connected network selected the non-local prefix, and it went away or changed, they would need to drop and reestablish the connection. Yes they could keep using the prefix as long as it was still valid, but from a diagnostics and management perspective you don't want a bunch of deprecated-but-still-valid prefixes running around for communications that should always stay internal to this network. Also, in some cases the application will want to run for longer than the valid time, so even if that approach is taken local apps will break for no good reason. > > Cases where networks contain a mixture of nodes (some local > only, some > local and global), and very long-lived connections in intermittently > connected networks, need special handling. In both cases it seems > reasonable that applications will be written or at least > configured to be > aware of the local/global address issue. Why? Are you suggesting that a ship can't run a stock database implementation? Yes specialty applications should be aware, but there is no reason to preclude use of off-the-shelf configurations. > > Along with safeguards against address translation in the > nodes requirement, > and routing restrictions in the address format document, > this should work. > > I know I left out plenty of detail, but I hope the general > idea is clear > enough. Comment/Flame away..... > Not a flame, but one other issue; there is a security argument to be made for defaulting to limited range addresses. If the default stance is limited range, people would not be automatically exposing their system just by installing an app. Of course the counter argument to security is configuration simplicity, and making Joe-sixpack explicitly select the exposure range is not particularly viable either. Getting back to your point about api selection, should the default api be don't-care, or limited-only? Using the current address selection rules for the don't-care case, the behavior would be more stable for local apps but still exposed for global reachability. If the default were local-only, the app, or sys-admin would have to explicitly select when exposure happens. This is really a question about how much we really want to see hosts and applications protect themselves ... Tony > > > > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor > J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management > Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and > Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 > 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 11:54:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IshCM025516; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Isg7Y025515; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IsZCM025497 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76IpxV7010783 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76IprsF001051 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:51:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:51:53 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: <040001c35c4b$c0bc62e0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F31270C.437287F2@zurich.ibm.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76IsbCM025499 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > 3. I feel strongly that this absolutely needs to be a > one-time fee. The idea of constructing an artificial service > industry to maintain an annual registration system for random > numbers is plain wasteful. Well a database with stale information is of no value either. There is a recurring cost to running a useful database, we need to accept that and move on. Bob's draft has a place for those that are willing to pay, and one for those that are not. It may need more discussion about conflict resolution in the random space pointing to the registry, or noting that one or both sites could rerun the algorithm to move when necessary, but it currently solves both problem sets. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 11:57:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IvsCM025564; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Ivsac025563; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76IvmCM025550 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76ItCV7012014 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.133]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76It7jK009291 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h76It6c8109372 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:55:06 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.82]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h76It5iV179836 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:55:05 -0600 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h76Ipt6l002811 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:51:55 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id h76Ipsxx002806 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:51:55 -0400 Message-Id: <200308061851.h76Ipsxx002806@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: IPv6 WG management update Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:51:54 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As many of you know, Margaret Wasserman was named the new co-AD for the Internet Area in Vienna. As a result, she will be stepping down as co-chair for the IPv6 WG once a new co-chair has been found. As part of that process, we'd welcome nominations (self or of someone else) for the co-chair position. Also, although I am currently the Area Advisor for the IPv6 WG, the plan is that Margaret will take over that role once a new co-chair is in place. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:01:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76J1WCM025874; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76J1Wkf025873; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76J1JCM025847 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76IwhUu028764 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76IwcsF002789 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:58:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:58:38 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , , "'Zefram'" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:58:16 -0700 Message-ID: <040101c35c4c$b21caf00$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76J1MCM025849 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: > The few self-described apps people I've seen take > a stand have to my recollection been strongly > against dealing with locally scoped addresses . > > Have I missed anybody? It seems to me that people > with strong app and/or host kernel background > ought to be given a disproportionate voice in the > consensus here as this is really their ox who's > being gored. They do have a disproportionate voice, primarily because the operator of the edge network (where these addresses would be used) is disenfranchised from the IETF. Yes the ox of the app developer is being gored here, but the alternative to a few in the middle is goring the masses at the edge. There is nothing more here than simple cost/benefit analysis being done by one side, rather than from the perspective of the system as a whole. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:19:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JJ3CM027947; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76JJ226027945; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JIsCM027921 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76JGIUu007044 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76JGCsF008039 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:16:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:16:13 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:15:51 -0700 Message-ID: <040501c35c4f$26a73550$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <16177.16098.240485.52640@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76JItCM027922 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: > The problem is that this draft proceedes from the > premise that the answer is consing up limited > range addresses. It is not intended to. It is trying to point out the requirements that network managers have. It uses examples where they have found limited range addresses meet the need to explain it for those who don't believe their requirements are real. > That's incorrect and not > helpful. We need to start by determining what the > *requirements* are, That is the point of the draft. Unfortunately some on this list want to argue that some requirements are not real, rather than accept that different situations create different requirements. Given that not everyone has expierenced every situation, the draft needs to provide enough context around a requirement so that others can see the issue. > and only then outline what the > range of solutions are, and what their problems > and possible consequences are. Until we can get an > consensus on what we need to do, and what the > engineering tradeoffs are, we will never come to > closure. Yes and no. There is no way to achieve a single optimal solution for the diverse set of requirements, so we know the outcome will be a compromise. Bob's draft (as did the others to randomize SL) meets the requirements in the current draft. > > That in a nutshell is why I have a problem with > the religiosity on both sides of this argument. My religion is that the deploying network manger is right, no matter what the IETF decides. If the IETF decides to provide tools to make deployment easy, that will be the path of least resistance. If not, the network manager will demand ad-hoc tools to get the job done. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:31:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JVICM029228; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76JVIEe029227; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JVACM029211 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76JSYV7001941 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76JSSsF011930 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76JSOO14386; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:28:24 +0300 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:28:22 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Keith Moore cc: Brian E Carpenter , Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] In-Reply-To: <20030806110509.3de31e1f.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > RFC 3056 says: > > > > Suppose that a subscriber site has at least one valid, globally > > unique 32-bit IPv4 address, referred to in this document as V4ADDR. > > This address MUST be duly allocated to the site by an address > > registry (possibly via a service provider) and it MUST NOT be a > > private address [RFC 1918]. > > > > Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? > > well, we don't say that hosts should block them. IMHO that would the wrong thing to do. The hosts should not care whether the prefix they're autoconfiguring from is from 2002::/16 or some other block. They don't implement 6to4, so making them care would seem like a layer violation. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:38:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JbuCM029860; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76JbuQ4029859; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JboCM029836 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76JZDV7005224 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com [47.103.122.112]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76JZ80V001304 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:35:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zrc2c011.us.nortel.com (zrc2c011.us.nortel.com [47.103.120.51]) by zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h76JZ0719175; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:35:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: by zrc2c011.us.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <301T0MCT>; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:35:00 -0500 Message-ID: <870397D7C140C84DB081B88396458DAF64879E@zrc2c000.us.nortel.com> From: "Peter Barany" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:34:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C35C51.D249C664" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C51.D249C664 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Two questions about this I-D: (1) In Section 3.2.3 "Sample Code for Pseudo-Random Global ID Algorithm", step (1) of the algorithm states: "Obtain the current time of day in 64-bit NTP format (NTP)" Question: Would it be possible to have the I-D specify that "how the current time of day is obtained is beyond the scope of this document"? (2) In Section 7.0 "DNS Issues", the last paragraph states: "For future study names with logically unique IPv6 local addresses may be resolved inside of the site using dynamic naming systems such as Multicast DNS". Question: Are you referring to ? Regards, Pete -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:25 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt FYI. Changes include: o Added section on scope definition and updated application requirement section. o Clarified that, by default, the scope of these addresses is global. o Renumbered sections and general text improvements o Removed reserved global ID values o Split Global ID values into centrally assigned and local assignments and added text to describe local assignments o Added pseudo code for local allocation submitted by Brian Haberman and added him as an author. The draft continues the use of the FC00::/7 prefix as I didn't see (as the author) a clear consensus to change it. Bob >To: IETF-Announce: ; >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:51:35 -0400 > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : Globally Unique IPv6 Local Unicast Addresses > Author(s) : R. Hinden > Filename : draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt > Pages : 13 > Date : 2003-6-12 > >This document defines an unicast address format that is globally >unique and is intended for local communications, usually inside of a >site. They are not expected to be routable on the global Internet >given current routing technology. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01. txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <2003-6-12140033.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C51.D249C664 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: I-D = ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt

Hi,

Two questions about this I-D:

(1) In Section 3.2.3 "Sample Code for = Pseudo-Random Global ID Algorithm", step (1) of the algorithm = states:
"Obtain the current time of day in 64-bit NTP = format (NTP)"
Question: Would it be possible to have the I-D = specify that "how the current time of day is obtained is beyond = the scope of this document"?

(2) In Section 7.0 "DNS Issues", the last = paragraph states:
"For future study names with logically unique = IPv6 local addresses may be resolved inside of the site using dynamic = naming systems such as Multicast DNS".

Question: Are you referring to = <draft-ietf-dnsext-mdns-22.txt>?

Regards,

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com]<= /FONT>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:25 PM
To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Subject: Fwd: I-D = ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt


FYI.  Changes include:

       o Added section = on scope definition and updated application
         = requirement section.
       o Clarified = that, by default, the scope of these addresses is
         = global.
       o Renumbered = sections and general text improvements
       o Removed = reserved global ID values
       o Split Global = ID values into centrally assigned and local
         = assignments and added text to describe local assignments
       o Added pseudo = code for local allocation submitted by Brian
         = Haberman and added him as an author.

The draft continues the use of the FC00::/7 prefix as = I didn't see (as the
author) a clear consensus to change it.

Bob

>To: IETF-Announce: ;
>From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>Subject: I-D = ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt
>Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 07:51:35 -0400
>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the = on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories.
>
>
>         = Title           : = Globally Unique IPv6 Local Unicast Addresses
>         = Author(s)       : R. Hinden
>         = Filename        : = draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt
>         = Pages           : = 13
>         = Date            = : 2003-6-12
>
>This document defines an unicast address format = that is globally
>unique and is intended for local communications, = usually inside of a
>site.  They are not expected to be routable = on the global Internet
>given current routing technology.
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-= global-local-addr-01.txt
>
>To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement = list, send a message to
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>type "cd internet-drafts" and = then
>         = "get draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt".
>
>A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be = found in
>http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
>Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by = e-mail.
>
>Send a message to:
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>In the body type:
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><ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-g= lobal-local-addr-01.txt>

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C35C51.D249C664-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:42:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JgiCM000307; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Jgijc000306; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JgYCM000282 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76JdwV7008300 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76JdrsF015529 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:39:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5364114170; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07012-07; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B156714010; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:39:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Pekka Savola Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] Message-Id: <20030806153952.0d42aab7.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <20030806110509.3de31e1f.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > > RFC 3056 says: > > > > > > Suppose that a subscriber site has at least one valid, globally > > > unique 32-bit IPv4 address, referred to in this document as > > > V4ADDR. This address MUST be duly allocated to the site by an > > > address registry (possibly via a service provider) and it MUST > > > NOT be a private address [RFC 1918]. > > > > > > Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? > > > > well, we don't say that hosts should block them. > > IMHO that would the wrong thing to do. The hosts should not care > whether the prefix they're autoconfiguring from is from 2002::/16 or > some other block. They don't implement 6to4, so making them care > would seem like a layer violation. things that make no sense should be filtered, just like packets sourced from a broadcast address. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:46:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JjtCM000682; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76JjsHh000681; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JjgCM000640 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Jh6V7010172 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Jh00V005086 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:43:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:43:01 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.155 by inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:43:02 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:59 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:41:16 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:42:57 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNcSS1nRlSOFJV/SC+mHAijpQJp/gACIBdy From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Michael Thomas" Cc: "Michael Thomas" , "Margaret Wasserman" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , "Zefram" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2003 19:42:58.0182 (UTC) FILETIME=[F01A1260:01C35C52] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76JjiCM000646 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> Let's be clear. Our group (Windows Networking) has received a lot >> of feedback from developers of applications on the Windows >> platform. The negative developers' feedback was mostly centered on the >> difficulty of identifying the scope of an address, specially when a >> node is connected to several sites (e.g. home network and VPN to the >> corporate network), or when a node moves from site to site. > > Which is to say, topology information which it didn't > have to consider in the past and for which it has little > information at its disposal from which to make decisions. No, I specifically did not say "topology information". Topology is a very wide notion, and application developers are actually OK with some amount of topology handling, e.g. doing things differently with folks that are "near me". The feedback on local addresses was very specific. Applications would learn or remember that the address of some correspondent was "FEC0::1234:5678:9ABC", they would try to feed the address in a socket address structure and issue a connect, and the call will fail because they did not fill up the "site identifier" variable, as in "FEC0::1234:5678:9ABC&1". The problem is compounded by the fact that the site identifier varies with the host instantiation, e.g. sometimes &1 and sometimes &2, and thus that the host identifier cannot be remembered in memory, or learned from a name server. Having a non ambiguous address solves that problem, because the stack will know over which interface a connect request to "FC00:DEAD:BEEF::1234:5678:9ABC" shall be routed. The application will not have to handle "site identifiers", and that is a very good thing. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 12:49:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JnmCM001090; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Jnm1v001089; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76JndCM001066 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Jl3Uu021147 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76JkwjK017195 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76Jkutp024352; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV31799; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id MAA23200; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.23343.30079.156736@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) To: "Tony Hain" Cc: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <040501c35c4f$26a73550$70144104@eagleswings> References: <16177.16098.240485.52640@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <040501c35c4f$26a73550$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain writes: > Michael Thomas wrote: > > The problem is that this draft proceedes from the > > premise that the answer is consing up limited > > range addresses. > > It is not intended to. It is trying to point out the requirements that > network managers have. It uses examples where they have found limited range > addresses meet the need to explain it for those who don't believe their > requirements are real. Tony, quit patronizing me and everybody else. I've not seen one person here who is insensitive to the actual needs of network managers. What I've seen is differing opinions of how to weigh the conflicts and most especially what the long term implications are of any particular approach. Your trying to frame these conversations as a one-man crusade against the IETF ivory-tower is lame and insulting. Your draft is not helpful because it starts out with a conclusion and works back from there, much like yellowcake and WMD. The bias is in the title of the draft, for gawd sake. What we really need is something that lays out all of the requirements -- and local scope is not a requirement, it's a solution -- and tries to analyze the problem space without bias to a particular solution; laying out the good, bad and the ugly for each possible approach. > > > That's incorrect and not > > helpful. We need to start by determining what the > > *requirements* are, > > That is the point of the draft. It fails. See above. > Unfortunately some on this list want to > argue that some requirements are not real, rather than accept that different > situations create different requirements. Given that not everyone has > expierenced every situation, the draft needs to provide enough context > around a requirement so that others can see the issue. And now your patronizing the group again. Stop it. > > and only then outline what the > > range of solutions are, and what their problems > > and possible consequences are. Until we can get an > > consensus on what we need to do, and what the > > engineering tradeoffs are, we will never come to > > closure. > > Yes and no. There is no way to achieve a single optimal solution for the > diverse set of requirements, so we know the outcome will be a compromise. > Bob's draft (as did the others to randomize SL) meets the requirements in > the current draft. You mean the requirements of "do no harm wrt NAT and DFZ route pollution?" Oh, golly, I guess I didn't find those in the draft. Both of these requirement are downsides of limited scope addresses approach, btw. > > That in a nutshell is why I have a problem with > > the religiosity on both sides of this argument. > > My religion is that the deploying network manger is right, no matter what > the IETF decides. If the IETF decides to provide tools to make deployment > easy, that will be the path of least resistance. If not, the network manager > will demand ad-hoc tools to get the job done. Aside from the preposterous notion that you're the torch bearer of the poor under represented network manager (::snort::), this isn't helpful because what we need here is to balance out the conflicting requirements both in whose work load is affected, as well as the general architecture of the net. The network manager is *one* voice that needs to be considered, not the *only* voice. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 13:21:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KKrCM002982; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76KKrfm002981; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KKdCM002938 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76KI2V7027179 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76KHusF026813 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:17:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76KFF502928; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:15:15 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3161D3.90708@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:15:15 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Zefram'" Subject: Re: apps people? References: <040101c35c4c$b21caf00$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <040101c35c4c$b21caf00$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >They do have a disproportionate voice, primarily because the operator of the >edge network (where these addresses would be used) is disenfranchised from >the IETF. Yes the ox of the app developer is being gored here, but the >alternative to a few in the middle is goring the masses at the edge. There >is nothing more here than simple cost/benefit analysis being done by one >side, rather than from the perspective of the system as a whole. > > Yet another old argument. I remember several opposing voices from the SL debate. I am running a large edge network. I have both PI and PA v4 and yet I don't see the need for site-locals. I think it is time to drop the "silent majority" argument. What edge-network do you run? Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 13:30:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KUQCM003879; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76KUQ2s003878; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KUKCM003860 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76KRiUu006823 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76KRcfe022920 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:27:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h76KOCbt1124089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:24:07 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Message-ID: <105048046.1060187047@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <20030806132704.33afbf52.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <87556000.1060169555@hkruse2003a> <20030806132704.33afbf52.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt still needs work, and some requirements in the draft may need to be examined further, but there is enough there I think that creating the "hooks" does no harm, if an application does not have to implement the special handling by default. --On Wednesday, August 06, 2003 13:27 -0400 Keith Moore wrote: > > IMHO, the need for local addressing has not been established, and we > should not burden either hosts, apps, or networks with it in the absence > of strong justification. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 13:37:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KbeCM004604; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76Kbewe004602; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76KbXCM004594 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76KYvUu010151 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76KYqfe027915 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:34:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ700IE6T63KI@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:34:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ7002IBT62PT@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:34:50 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: A suggestion around address selection behaviour To: Tony Hain Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F31666A.3070809@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <03fd01c35c4a$b61c5030$70144104@eagleswings> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >I think we should explicitly disallow a mismatch between local & global. In >addition, to achieve the use of globally routed in the non-local cases the >name resolution system needs to provide contextually appropriate answers. > You're asking the DNS views to be in sync with the routing views. Possible to achieve at a cost if there is one local and one global view, as it is current practise with two-fade DNS, but much harder when you have n enterprise networks joining to create an extranet. In any case, this is a layer violation. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:01:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L0xCM005666; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76L0xII005665; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L0oCM005658 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76KwEV7013830 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76Kw8jK006370 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h76Kw7B09412 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:58:07 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:58:06 +0300 Received: from daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.242.231]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:58:06 +0300 Received: from mvebe001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.140.37]) by daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:58:03 -0700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:58:02 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNcWS6Al7xS89tNSGaLnSGUfplTIgAAsiTQ From: To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2003 20:58:03.0208 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D4E7C80:01C35C5D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76L0pCM005659 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Umm, the draft has *two* authors - not one. The requirements and scenarios in the document are showing a *real need* independent of whether link-local, site-local, limited-range, global, provider-independent, etc etc. provide the best solution. If you think the document has a scoping issue (no pun intended), then let's discuss that with a measured tone. Thanks, Fred Templin fred.templin@nokia.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Michael Thomas [mailto:mat@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:47 PM > To: Tony Hain > Cc: 'Michael Thomas'; 'Brian E Carpenter'; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] > > > Tony Hain writes: > > Michael Thomas wrote: > > > The problem is that this draft proceedes from the > > > premise that the answer is consing up limited > > > range addresses. > > > > It is not intended to. It is trying to point out the > requirements that > > network managers have. It uses examples where they have > found limited range > > addresses meet the need to explain it for those who don't > believe their > > requirements are real. > > Tony, quit patronizing me and everybody else. I've > not seen one person here who is insensitive to the > actual needs of network managers. What I've seen > is differing opinions of how to weigh the > conflicts and most especially what the long term > implications are of any particular approach. Your > trying to frame these conversations as a one-man > crusade against the IETF ivory-tower is lame and > insulting. > > Your draft is not helpful because it starts out > with a conclusion and works back from there, much > like yellowcake and WMD. The bias is in the title > of the draft, for gawd sake. What we really need > is something that lays out all of the requirements > -- and local scope is not a requirement, it's a > solution -- and tries to analyze the problem space > without bias to a particular solution; laying out > the good, bad and the ugly for each possible > approach. > > > > > > That's incorrect and not > > > helpful. We need to start by determining what the > > > *requirements* are, > > > > That is the point of the draft. > > It fails. See above. > > > Unfortunately some on this list want to > > argue that some requirements are not real, rather than > accept that different > > situations create different requirements. Given that not > everyone has > > expierenced every situation, the draft needs to provide > enough context > > around a requirement so that others can see the issue. > > And now your patronizing the group again. Stop it. > > > > and only then outline what the > > > range of solutions are, and what their problems > > > and possible consequences are. Until we can get an > > > consensus on what we need to do, and what the > > > engineering tradeoffs are, we will never come to > > > closure. > > > > Yes and no. There is no way to achieve a single optimal > solution for the > > diverse set of requirements, so we know the outcome will > be a compromise. > > Bob's draft (as did the others to randomize SL) meets the > requirements in > > the current draft. > > You mean the requirements of "do no harm wrt NAT > and DFZ route pollution?" Oh, golly, I guess I > didn't find those in the draft. Both of these > requirement are downsides of limited scope > addresses approach, btw. > > > > That in a nutshell is why I have a problem with > > > the religiosity on both sides of this argument. > > > > My religion is that the deploying network manger is right, > no matter what > > the IETF decides. If the IETF decides to provide tools to > make deployment > > easy, that will be the path of least resistance. If not, > the network manager > > will demand ad-hoc tools to get the job done. > > Aside from the preposterous notion that you're the > torch bearer of the poor under represented network > manager (::snort::), this isn't helpful because > what we need here is to balance out the > conflicting requirements both in whose work load > is affected, as well as the general architecture > of the net. The network manager is *one* voice > that needs to be considered, not the *only* voice. > > Mike > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:03:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L2uCM005723; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76L2uco005722; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L2hCM005709 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76L06V7014630 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76L00sF009203 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:59:59 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , , "'Zefram'" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <041501c35c5d$a6ac27c0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F3161D3.90708@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76L2iCM005710 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Yet another old argument. I remember several opposing voices > from the SL > debate. Appearing to be primarily from service providers. By my count most of the no voters were from edge focused people. > I am running a large edge network. I have both PI and PA v4 and yet I > don't see > the need for site-locals. So is all of your space is globally routed without any filtering or exclusion from routing protocols? Not everyone is in such a lucky position to have all of their network globally exposed. > I think it is time to drop the "silent > majority" argument. > > What edge-network do you run? Currently an insignificant one, but in past lives I have been involved in both large scale edge and core network management. The point is not what you or I think about the need for local addressing, it is about what the manager who can't get PI space is going to do. Insufficient resources to justify PI space does not invalidate their need for internal network stability. In the absence of NAT, allowing the ISPs to renumber customer networks at a whim will ensure 'address-portability' becomes a hot button. We can help mitigate what would become random PI by providing local stability. We can go further by providing a 'less-than-perfect' PI. PI will solve most of the requirements for local space, but by definition can't deal with the requirement to avoid accidentally becoming part of a routed aggregate. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:04:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L45CM005763; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76L45Eq005762; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L3wCM005752 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76L1NV7015301 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76L1HWh013150 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (dhcp53.potaroo.net [203.10.60.53]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h76L1BRc073003; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:01:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:00:44 +1000 To: Brian E Carpenter , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-Reply-To: <3F31270C.437287F2@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian Carptener writes: > > > http://www.apnic.net/meetings/16/programme/sigs/docs/policy/addpol-doc-huston-local-use-addrs.doc > > attempts to to refine this draft into some considerations from a registry > > perspective. (If there's interest > > I'll put this out as an Internet Draft) > >Geoff, > >Three comments on your draft: Thank you for reviewing the document >1. I don't think the RIRs as institutions have any special standing >to comment on the locally-assigned variant in draft-hinden. It's a >technical choice for the WG and the IETF. If you're arguing personally >that you don't like the birthday paradox risk, let's discuss it. It is an individual document, as stated by listing only myself as the author. It is not an RIR document, and it does not represent any RIR position. As an individual IETF participant I have as much standing to comment on the locally assigned random choice proposal as any other individual, obviously. The probability of a collision using random choice is not a paradox. Its a simple calculation, using the formula as given in the document. The observation is that even though the /8 space contains 1.1 trillion entries, there is a greater than 0.5 probability that there will be a clash after some 1.2 million draws. Normally this would not matter in the slightest, BUT the proposal also notes a potential to use these addresses in the context of end point identifiers, and in such a case there is a strict requirement for uniqueness, and my observation is that self-driven random choice is inadequate. Its not a paradox risk. Its just the underlying mathematics of random draw probabilities. >2. Most of your arguments appear to be hinting at a re-run of the ICANN >wars for the centrally assigned variant. Well, that's why there is an >analogy with .org in the draft. You may be right that the pricing level >should be set competitively, but I really don't see this being a gold >rush. There's not much marketing value in a random number. In any case, >you're correct that the IETF can't decide this, but we need to give IANA >the clearest instructions possible. I honestly can't make any sense of these sentences. Could you please rephrase it? >Incidentally, since these are not routeable addresses, and have no >geography, it doesn't follow that the RIRs have a role in this part >of the address space. In fact, the RIRs might be quite uncomfortable >with the idea of competing in the sale of random numbers. It may be. It may not. But attempting to second guess anyone, as you appear to be doing in your comment, without at least allowing them the courtesy of consideration of the issues is not normally considered a very wise course of action. So this document is considering the issues and looking at the pros and cons of various forms of distribution, and looking at an RIR perspective in considering the implications of a central registry function of such local use allocations. You'd prefer that this analysis was done behind closed doors? I'd be tempted to guess that your answer would be a 'no', but I'll avoid the temptation to second guess you and leave it for you to answer. >3. I feel strongly that this absolutely needs to be a one-time fee. >The idea of constructing an artificial service industry to maintain >an annual registration system for random numbers is plain wasteful. And the document considers this approach as well as others. Interestingly enough there are other perspectives here to the one you've stated, and there are pros and cons to each of them, and the document explores some aspects of these considerations. You appear to offer the hint here that its in some manner heretical behaviour to explore alternatives. Again I'm tempted to guess that you do not mean it to sound that way, but once more I'll refrain :-) Regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:07:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L7ECM006039; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76L7Eel006038; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76L78CM006027 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76L4WUu022534 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76L4QsF010623 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:04:26 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Alain Durand'" Cc: Subject: RE: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:05 -0700 Message-ID: <041601c35c5e$4538d6e0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F31666A.3070809@sun.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > You're asking the DNS views to be in sync with the routing > views. Possible to achieve at a cost if there is one local > and one global view, as it is current practise with two-fade > DNS, but much harder when you have n enterprise networks > joining to create an extranet. In any case, this is a layer violation. Yes, a layer violation which is in wide deployment and use today. Yes there are technical issues which could be dealt with to make it work better, but those won't happen as long as the IETF DNS community refuses to step up to them. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:29:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LT5CM007371; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76LT4aY007370; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LSpCM007347 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76LQFUu001170 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76LQ9L0004763 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:26:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h76LPh502966; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:25:43 +0200 Message-ID: <3F317257.70209@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:25:43 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Zefram'" Subject: Re: apps people? References: <041501c35c5d$a6ac27c0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <041501c35c5d$a6ac27c0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >So is all of your space is globally routed without any filtering or >exclusion from routing protocols? Not everyone is in such a lucky position >to have all of their network globally exposed. > > Of course we filter - but we don't NAT! And luck has nothing to do with it. Would I like to be able to renumber and/or switch providers at the press of the button? Maybe. Do I wan't to pay the price of not beeing able to run (say) sip to the end- point? No way! Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:41:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LfoCM007896; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76LfoG7007895; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LfeCM007888 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76Ld4V7001541 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76LcwsF020376 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2003 14:38:59 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h76LcsuI005431; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGV45687; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id OAA23481; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:38:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Cc: , , , Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred.Templin@nokia.com writes: > If you think the document has a scoping issue (no pun intended), > then let's discuss that with a measured tone. Yes, I think it has scoping issues. A name change, for starters. It should first lay out requirements of network operators, etc in terms of what they need to accomplish not how they can accomplish it. Take as a very large for example, address stability. That's not the requirement, per se. What they want is for topology tweaking to not adversely affect running applications. However protocols such as TCP are incapable of sustaining sessions across address changes which is typically needed when you want to move topology around. That's the reason I say that "stability" is a solution, not a requirement. Keeping addresses the same is *a* way of keeping applications from breaking, but not the only one. Mobile IP obviously comes to mind, and there are other ways we could envision like Fred's attempt at operational renumbering. Another example is your "well known prefix". I'd think that the requirement is that certain services and/or classes of devices need to be isolated and/or invisible from the other parts of the net. A well known prefix is a way to do that, but it doesn't necessitate local scope and again isn't the only way to wall stuff off. I really don't want to drag this into a meta argument about the merits of various solutions, but only to point out that the entire document is structured in a way that the answer is foregone. That's not what we need right now. We need something that tries to be unbiased about the ultimate compromises we're going to have to make by saying what we want (requirements), what the possible frameworks are for addressing the requirements, and most especially what their possible downsides are. We don't need boosterism which tries to paper over the warts; all possible solutions have problems, what we need is an honest evaluation so that we can decide which path is the least objectionable. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 14:53:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LqaCM009086; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76LqagM009085; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76LqNCM009062 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76LnkV7006935 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76LnfsF023586 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:49:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:49:35 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , , "'Zefram'" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:49:14 -0700 Message-ID: <042301c35c64$96f290b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F317257.70209@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h76LqOCM009063 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Of course we filter - What is your requirement to do that? I am serious, because those are the things the current draft is trying to document. If it is not covered by the current text, please send details. > but we don't NAT! I never said NAT was a good thing, in fact I keep pointing out we will have NAT if we don't give people stable local space to work with. Local stability is more important than breaking a few applications people aren't using yet. > And luck has nothing > to do with > it. Would > I like to be able to renumber and/or switch providers at the press of > the button? Maybe. Some are more insistent about that ability. > Do I wan't to pay the price of not beeing able to run > (say) sip > to the end- > point? No way! Good, we agree on something as a starting point. The limited range document is about identifying the requirements network managers have which prevent flat global routing of every prefix. There is nothing in there about requiring NAT. There is a suggestion that a parallel effort be started to create a globally routed PI space, on the assumption that some will try to pay to have the limited range addresses routed as a proxy for the non-existent IPv6 PI. I personally think the IPv6 PI work belongs in the IPv6 WG, but in the current political climate I can't see it happening. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 15:22:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76MMbCM010780; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76MMbmw010779; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76MMVCM010769 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76MJtV7020305 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76MJmfe011412 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:19:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kWdD-0001pR-00; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:19:43 +0200 To: Tony Hain Subject: RE: A suggestion around address selection behaviour Message-ID: <1060208383.3f317eff8d5a4@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:19:43 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <041601c35c5e$4538d6e0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <041601c35c5e$4538d6e0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Tony Hain : > > You're asking the DNS views to be in sync with the routing > > views. > Yes, a layer violation which is in wide deployment and use today. Yes > there > are technical issues which could be dealt with to make it work better, > but > those won't happen as long as the IETF DNS community refuses to step up > to > them. Good solution. Lets move the problem somewhere else... I think you are fighting a loosing battle. Even if there was something wrong with the way site locals were deprecated from IPv6 in terms of itty bitty details of procedure, do you honestly believe that bringing them "back" would prevent us (the site locals depreceators) from getting rid of them once again, by the book? I think all that will be lost is precious time to work on a better solution because there is enough strong voices against site locals. Certainly enough for my interpretation of "rough consensus". Arguments for and against is repeating itself and that makes the likelihood of someone changing opinion smaller by the day. People are locked into their positions and in essence the consensus will remain IMHO. The only thing to change that is new evidence. None is appearing. We can always bring site locals BACK into the standard at some later point if we realize that it actually was a good thing. But the apps people, the routing people, the ISP people, the edge people and a bunch of other people seems to think it is a very bad thing compared to living without it. It is much more difficult to change things once 100,000 people or a million people are using it compared to when 1000 people are using it. Are there 1000 site local uses of IPv6 in the world today? I say, lets see if it really is a bad thing by trying to find a better solution and work with that for a while. If it turns out there are better solutions, everybody wins. If there aren't any, you were right and we bring site locals back into the picture and everybody wins. IANA can sit on the necessary ranges until the end of time if required. It is always easier to ADD features in the future than to remove them. So lets get on with it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 15:23:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76MNOCM010820; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h76MNOtp010819; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h76MNFCM010806 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h76MKdV7020582 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h76MKXfe011951 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:20:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16CF13; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:20:31 +0900 (JST) To: Thomas Narten Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: narten's message of Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:51:54 -0400. <200308061851.h76Ipsxx002806@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: IPv6 WG management update From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:20:31 +0900 Message-Id: <20030806222031.B16CF13@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >As many of you know, Margaret Wasserman was named the new co-AD for >the Internet Area in Vienna. As a result, she will be stepping down as >co-chair for the IPv6 WG once a new co-chair has been found. As part >of that process, we'd welcome nominations (self or of someone else) >for the co-chair position. where should we send the nominations? nomcom@where? itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 17:29:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770TBCM017325; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h770TBlN017324; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770T7CM017317 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h770QVUu020156 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.133]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h770QQ0V013030 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:26:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.32]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h770QMc8235948; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:26:22 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.82]) by westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h770QLon030356; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:26:21 -0600 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h770N86l003943; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:23:08 -0400 Received: from rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (narten@localhost) by rotala.raleigh.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id h770N7Yu003938; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:23:07 -0400 Message-Id: <200308070023.h770N7Yu003938@rotala.raleigh.ibm.com> To: itojun@iijlab.net cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 WG management update In-Reply-To: Message from itojun@iijlab.net of "Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:20:31 +0900." <20030806222031.B16CF13@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:23:07 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >As many of you know, Margaret Wasserman was named the new co-AD for > >the Internet Area in Vienna. As a result, she will be stepping down as > >co-chair for the IPv6 WG once a new co-chair has been found. As part > >of that process, we'd welcome nominations (self or of someone else) > >for the co-chair position. > where should we send the nominations? nomcom@where? me, Margaret and/or Bob. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 17:45:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770jACM017994; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h770j9Uq017993; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770j3CM017985 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h770gRUu026391 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h770gMWh000347 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h770gI6s015623; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:42:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr06.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h770g6fG027916; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:42:07 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aidanw.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.63]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h770g4e7004017; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:42:05 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31A05B.8000906@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:42:03 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Andrew White , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space References: <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <1060160853.12433.21.camel@dupy> <3F30CAA0.3050601@motorola.com> <1060164487.12722.54.camel@dupy> In-Reply-To: <1060164487.12722.54.camel@dupy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: >Ok, I think you might have missed the point of my original email, so >I'll try to re-state it : > >1) If people have lots of choices, they would rather not make a choice, >particularly when they don't have the knowledge to make a value judgment >as to what the "best" choice is. > >In this case, there is no value judgment to be made, but with say 100 - >1000 (or many more) EUI-48 addresses to choose from (remember, each >switch has a EUI-48 address per port), it will *feel* like there is a >value judgement to be made. And that will confuse them. > >Too many choices can almost be as bad as not enough. > > I'm pretty sure I get your point, I just don't buy it. This isn't a complex decision for the user and software can help greatly. >2) Even if you automate the process of generating a local range address >using a EUI-48 MAC address, which device do you perform it on ? For >example, with 200 routers, and multiple Internet connections (ie. so you >can't say the "Internet" router is the one to get an EUI-48 from), >again, you can have too many choices. Which router / interface is the >"right" EUI-48 source ? > It doesn't matter which one, software can pick one from the box you are performing the configuration on. >3) Alternatively, if there was a manual EUI-48 entry prompt, to allow >people to select an arbitrary EUI-48 from their set, if they don't know >how to find out an EUI-48 address, and / or don't understand the value >in selecting a IEEE assigned EUI-48, they will enter 00:00:00:00:00:00, >or 11:11:11:11:11:11, etc. > > Why would there be an EUI-48 entry prompt? There is a need to configure/propagate around the hashed prefix that resulted from the computation, exactly as in the birthdate approach. >These are people / technology issues, not just technology issues. > >Bob's use of a ntp time stamp and the operator's birthday as the hash >input avoids these problems. > > I don't think there are any "problems" with using an EUI-48 as an input to the hash that are avoided by the birthdate. And it has the advantages of being able to be performed automatically, and of providing "good uniqueness" of bits. Another approach might be to hash the admin's phone number. (Ideally we could staple a whole phone number into the prefix, which would be cute from a debugging point of view. Unfortunately with 41 bits we only get 12 digits.) - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 17:59:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770wtCM018497; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h770wsFR018496; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h770wlCM018489 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h770uBV7027668 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h770u6sF013541 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:56:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h770u1hx014983; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:56:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h770tvlV021552; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:56:02 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aidanw.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.63]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h770tqe7004751; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:55:52 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31A397.7020103@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:55:51 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Margaret Wasserman CC: Mark Smith , Andrew White , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: global-local draft and FD00/8 space References: <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <3F307AFA.92FE0C26@motorola.com> <1060149252.11301.23.camel@dupy> <3F30B750.6090103@motorola.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806112430.03ca9e28@mail.windriver.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806112430.03ca9e28@mail.windriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > At 06:37 PM 8/6/2003 +0930, Mark Smith wrote: > >> I'd think it is pretty unlikely that two people, at separate sites, with >> the same birthday, were executing this algorithm at the same >> millisecond. > > And even if they were, what do you think the chance is that their > companies will ever acquire each other, requiring them to merge > their private address space? :-) Actually, this risk is exactly why I would like to make the selection algorithm for bits in the FD/8 space as bulletproof as possible. In a previous life, I have spent too much time in the house of pain merging and renumbering networks that were behind IPv4 NATs when companies acquired each other. Little companies do that quite a lot. I also have little faith in user supplied input, and not a lot of faith in the implementation quality of an arbitrary random number generator. Hence I would like to see local address disambiguation make use of any "good quality unique bits" we already have lying around, like EUI-48s. I don't think that is a hard thing to do, so why don't we? - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 18:34:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h771YCCM020544; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h771YCJB020543; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h771Y4CM020528 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h771VSV7011017 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h771VMfe003495 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:31:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h771VMhx002308 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:31:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr06.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h771VIfG019878 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:31:20 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h771VHe7006604 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:18 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31ABE5.5DCD59FE@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:31:17 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110946.038e52d8@mail.windriver.com> <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Unless I'm missing something, the 'apps' problem can be neatly divided into two issues: (1) If there are multiple addresses per node, then the application needs to somehow iterate through the various src/dest combos until it finds one that works. If multiple ones would work, how does it choose the best combo? (2) If there are filters in place, then addresses that work from one node attached at one point may not work from a different node or a different location. If we agree to remove filters and have one address per node, then we can continue to write simplistic apps. If not, then applications need to use techniques that allow them to cope with these issues. Notice that if an application only creates connections using a single pair of endpoints then (assuming no mobility) it only has to deal with issue #1. Issue #2 only comes into play when applications forward IP address to other applications and expect them to keep working. Sending DNS addresses instead may be a solution for some applications. Manual configuration is the other option. This discussion is only relevant to 'local' addresses in as much as local addresses are one class of filtered address. As soon as you introduce filters you MUST consider #2, regardless of your address 'scope'. Christian's point about apps not wanting to deal with scope ids to resolve overlapping mutually ambiguous scopes is taken, but I think most of us agree with that aspect. Network ambiguity is largely irrelevant - the connection succeeds or it doesn't (remember that most nodes have a unique interface id). Rather, ambiguity is a big bugbear for network merging. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 18:57:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h771vSCM021989; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h771vS74021988; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h771vJCM021967 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h771shV7018544 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h771scL0009041 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:54:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h771sb6s016824 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:54:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h771sclT024390 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:54:39 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h771sXe7007686 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:54:33 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:54:33 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPng Subject: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk A 'real life' deployment scenario. (a) I set up a local network. I currently have no ISP, but I want my network to 'just work' out of the box. This network consists of (initially) three routers, plus other infrastructure. (b) Sometime later I decide I want internet connectivity, so I connect to an ISP. I add my ISP provided address to my network in addition to the address/es that are there already. For argument's sake, let's say the ISP doesn't have IPv6 capability, so I use a 6to4 address. I do not want my internal addressing exposed outside the network, so I filter my addresses. I do use the ISPs addresses for external connectivity. (c+d) Meanwhile, my friend has done the same thing, except that his ISP DOES offer IPv6, so he has a 'real' IPv6 address. (e) We connect our two local networks together (either by VPN tunnel or a wireless link - doesn't matter). We can now send local traffic to each other, and out either ISP. (f) Sometime later I disconnect my ISP, and we use just his ISP. (g) Sometime later I disconnect my network from his. (h) Sometime later I register with a new ISP, and get a new IPv6 prefix. Salient points: (1) At points (a), (c) and (g) we have networks that are standalone and have no connection to an ISP or the global internet. Further, the networks in (a) and (c) have never had such a connection. The users don't want to have to register to get an address that works. (2) In (b), the external (6to4) prefix is unstable. Many ISPs allocate a temporary IPv4 internet address, and change these frequently. (3) The set of global prefixes valid for the network changes over time. (a) None (b) #1 (my 6to4) (e) #1 and #2 (friend's v6) (f) #2 (g) None (h) #3 (my new v6) (4) The only 'reliable' address that the hosts in my network have is the local one they started with. This example is quite similar to Tony's research ship example, with the possible caveat that a research ship might be big and organised enough to register with an ISP to get an address space plus connectivity they never intend to use. Consequences: - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent on anyone or anything connected to the global internet. - I need this local addressing unique enough that I can safely join my network and my friend's network together and allow them to swap prefixes. - I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address scheme when talking to other hosts in my network. I want hosts in my network to prefer one of the local schemes when talking to hosts in my friend's network (since I don't want the packets to leave 'our' network). I want hosts in my network to prefer global addresses when talking externally. - I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, preferably without having to set it up myself. - The ISPs probably want my local addresses filtered too. Looks suspiciously like the filtered local address proposal, doesn't it? -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 19:25:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h772P0CM023480; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h772P01B023479; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h772OmCM023437 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h772MCV7026406 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h772M7sF002866 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B808214181; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09224-07; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6101417F; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:22:00 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030806222200.63f79c78.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F31ABE5.5DCD59FE@motorola.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806110946.038e52d8@mail.windriver.com> <16177.11664.832857.527433@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31ABE5.5DCD59FE@motorola.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > (1) If there are multiple addresses per node, then the application > needs to somehow iterate through the various src/dest combos until it > finds one that works. If multiple ones would work, how does it choose > the best combo? iteration is often too slow, especially if there are lots of address pairs and the default rules don't work well. > (2) If there are filters in place, then addresses that work from one > node attached at one point may not work from a different node or a > different location. > > If we agree to remove filters and have one address per node, then we > can continue to write simplistic apps. If not, then applications need > to use techniques that allow them to cope with these issues. > > Notice that if an application only creates connections using a single > pair of endpoints then (assuming no mobility) it only has to deal with > issue #1. Issue #2 only comes into play when applications forward IP > address to other applications and expect them to keep working. > Sending DNS addresses instead may be a solution for some applications. whether this works depends on both DNS configuration and the app. it would be far better if the apps had a way of doing referrals that didn't suffer the unreliability and delays of DNS and which wasn't so sensitive to DNS (mis-) configuration. > This discussion is only relevant to 'local' addresses in as much as > local addresses are one class of filtered address. As soon as you > introduce filters you MUST consider #2, regardless of your address > 'scope'. local addresses are also ambiguous, which further complicates things. > Network ambiguity is largely irrelevant - the connection succeeds or > it doesn't (remember that most nodes have a unique interface id). timeouts take a long time, and the probability that an ambiguous address is invalid is high. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 20:08:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7738NCM025391; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7738Nnd025390; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7738ECM025365 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7735cV7007979 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7735X0V008024 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:05:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC41C1414B; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12037-07; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CDF14147; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:05:31 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Message-Id: <20030806230531.67ecaff0.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> References: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent on anyone > or anything connected to the global internet. no, you need some form of globally unique address that isn't dependent on having an external internet connection. > - I need this local addressing unique enough that I can safely join my > network and my friend's network together and allow them to swap > prefixes. agreed. > - I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address scheme when > talking to other hosts in my network. you've not shown any justification for that. what do you care what addresses are used as long as the traffic doesn't escape and/or the hosts that you don't want to be accessible from outside your network, aren't accessible from outside your network? > I want hosts in my network to > prefer one of the local schemes when talking to hosts in my friend's > network (since I don't want the packets to leave 'our' network). again, you haven't show any justification for that. it's far easier to filter global addresses than to filter local ones. > I want hosts in my network to prefer global addresses when talking > externally. why not have them use global addresses whenever possible? it makes the applications MUCH simpler... > - I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, > preferably without having to set it up myself. sorry, that's not going to happen. how are the routers supposed to know which borders are appropriate without being configured to know? you've already suggested you'd like the same set of "local" addresses to be routed between your network and your friend's network. > - The ISPs probably want my local addresses filtered too. then the ISPs can filter them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 20:50:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h773oeCM027318; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h773oedu027317; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h773oaCM027310 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h773m0V7018691 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h773lsfe007661 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.156]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:47:53 -0700 Received: from inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.157]) by mail5.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:48:44 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:47:53 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by INET-HUB-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:47:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6940.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:47:46 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E207956A@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNciVDK/tiShQGkQbaTXhNNrLKLjgAC66qg From: "Brian Zill" To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 03:47:52.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADB00670:01C35C96] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h773oaCM027311 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Note that both #1 will always be the case for nodes that support both IPv4 and IPv6. And #2 is always a concern for apps that need to run on nodes/networks that may support either version of IP or both, and wish to talk to other nodes/networks that may support either version of IP or both. In other words, expecting to have only one IP address per node is an increasingly naïve assumption for an app to make (not even true very often for IPv4 today), and likewise is expecting everyone else's connectivity to be the same (i.e. you can't forward the IPv4 address of one of your peers to another one of your peers and expect them to be able to deal with it - the second peer may be an IPv6 only node). There are issues here that have nothing to do with site-locals. --Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Andrew White > Sent: Wednesday, 06 August, 2003 18:31 > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: apps people? > > > Unless I'm missing something, the 'apps' problem can be > neatly divided into two issues: > > (1) If there are multiple addresses per node, then the > application needs to somehow iterate through the various > src/dest combos until it finds one that works. If multiple > ones would work, how does it choose the best combo? > > (2) If there are filters in place, then addresses that work > from one node attached at one point may not work from a > different node or a different location. > > If we agree to remove filters and have one address per node, > then we can continue to write simplistic apps. If not, then > applications need to use techniques that allow them to cope > with these issues. > > Notice that if an application only creates connections using > a single pair of endpoints then (assuming no mobility) it > only has to deal with issue #1. > Issue #2 only comes into play when applications forward IP > address to other applications and expect them to keep > working. Sending DNS addresses instead may be a solution for > some applications. Manual configuration is the other option. > > This discussion is only relevant to 'local' addresses in as > much as local addresses are one class of filtered address. > As soon as you introduce filters you MUST consider #2, > regardless of your address 'scope'. > > > Christian's point about apps not wanting to deal with scope > ids to resolve overlapping mutually ambiguous scopes is > taken, but I think most of us agree with that aspect. > > > Network ambiguity is largely irrelevant - the connection > succeeds or it doesn't (remember that most nodes have a > unique interface id). Rather, ambiguity is a big bugbear for > network merging. > > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 21:28:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h774SCCM028867; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h774SCCu028865; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h774S5CM028857 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h774PTUu029952 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h774POL0016082 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:25:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h774POhx010138 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:25:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr04.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h774P8Kl030821 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:25:09 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h774PJe7017258 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:25:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31D4AE.F49079FB@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:25:18 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> <20030806230531.67ecaff0.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent on anyone > > or anything connected to the global internet. > > no, you need some form of globally unique address that isn't dependent > on having an external internet connection. Nor on needing an external registration procedure. I'd like to be able to turn my router on and have it all just work. (Side point: hence why I favour using the router's MAC rather than my birthday and current system time to generate the network prefix. The former is hard-coded into the router and unique - the latter requires user intervention). > > - I need this local addressing unique enough that I can safely join my > > network and my friend's network together and allow them to swap > > prefixes. > > agreed. > > > - I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address scheme when > > talking to other hosts in my network. > > you've not shown any justification for that. what do you care what > addresses are used as long as the traffic doesn't escape and/or the > hosts that you don't want to be accessible from outside your > network, aren't accessible from outside your network? When that 6to4 address goes away, I don't want my persistent sessions to be forced to maintain a stale address. > > I want hosts in my network to > > prefer one of the local schemes when talking to hosts in my friend's > > network (since I don't want the packets to leave 'our' network). > > again, you haven't show any justification for that. it's far easier to > filter global addresses than to filter local ones. *boggle* Am I the only one that finds this claim nonsensical? > > I want hosts in my network to prefer global addresses when talking > > externally. > > why not have them use global addresses whenever possible? it makes the > applications MUCH simpler... Because (in the current context) there's no such thing? A local address is an address that promises to be filtered. A global address is an address that makes no promises. > > - I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, > > preferably without having to set it up myself. > > sorry, that's not going to happen. how are the routers supposed to know > which borders are appropriate without being configured to know? you've > already suggested you'd like the same set of "local" addresses to > be routed between your network and your friend's network. On my 'home router / gateway' I have one port coloured red and placed on one side of the box. This says 'uplink'. The other ports are on the other side of the box and are labelled 'internal'. The rest follows from there. Especially since all my 'home router / gateway' boxes are using a common prefix for generating their internal addresses (say FD00::/8). Note that I either don't have or don't use the 'uplink' port on internal routers. It's not REALLY that difficult. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 22:14:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775EjCM000994; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h775Ejtt000993; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775EcCM000986 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h775C2V7010380 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h775Bv0V020137 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:11:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ800L3GH3XEA@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:11:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([66.93.78.11]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ8000P3H3VOJ@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:11:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:14:09 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: apps people? In-reply-to: <3F31ABE5.5DCD59FE@motorola.com> To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk There is one point you're missing. When an apps cycle through the list of potential src/dst addresses, it does not fail over from one to the other immediately, especially when the destination is remote and ICMP unreachable message may or may not be received. TCP time out kicks in and RFC1123 says that an app MUST wait at least 3 minutes in SYN state before timing out (of course not all TCP implementation implement this MUST) Anyway, my point is that if this trial/error process of walking through the list of possible destination before finding a correct one can be extremely time consuming. So, if the "routing view" of the world is not in sync with the "DNS view" of the world, unacceptable delays may/will occur. - Alain. On Wednesday, August 6, 2003, at 06:31 PM, Andrew White wrote: > Unless I'm missing something, the 'apps' problem can be neatly divided > into > two issues: > > (1) If there are multiple addresses per node, then the application > needs to > somehow iterate through the various src/dest combos until it finds one > that > works. If multiple ones would work, how does it choose the best combo? > > (2) If there are filters in place, then addresses that work from one > node > attached at one point may not work from a different node or a different > location. > > If we agree to remove filters and have one address per node, then we > can > continue to write simplistic apps. If not, then applications need to > use > techniques that allow them to cope with these issues. > > Notice that if an application only creates connections using a single > pair > of endpoints then (assuming no mobility) it only has to deal with > issue #1. > Issue #2 only comes into play when applications forward IP address to > other > applications and expect them to keep working. Sending DNS addresses > instead > may be a solution for some applications. Manual configuration is the > other > option. > > This discussion is only relevant to 'local' addresses in as much as > local > addresses are one class of filtered address. As soon as you introduce > filters you MUST consider #2, regardless of your address 'scope'. > > > Christian's point about apps not wanting to deal with scope ids to > resolve > overlapping mutually ambiguous scopes is taken, but I think most of us > agree > with that aspect. > > > Network ambiguity is largely irrelevant - the connection succeeds or it > doesn't (remember that most nodes have a unique interface id). Rather, > ambiguity is a big bugbear for network merging. > > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 22:48:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775mGCM002388; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h775mE0S002387; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775m4CM002380 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h775jJUu020104 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h775jDsF016775 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:45:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h775iq119712; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:44:52 +0300 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:44:52 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Michael Thomas cc: Fred.Templin@nokia.com, , , Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Michael Thomas wrote: [...] > I really don't want to drag this into a meta > argument about the merits of various solutions, > but only to point out that the entire document is > structured in a way that the answer is foregone. [...] Exactly. Some others have also voiced concerns on this. For example, Rob Austein made a similar comment at the Vienna meeting (I was already walking to the queue but he got there first :-). At least I interpreted it like that. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 22:51:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775psCM002533; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h775psBu002532; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h775pkCM002512 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h775nAUu021037 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h775n50V003193 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:49:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h775n4go018670 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:49:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h775n1uX009697 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:49:02 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h775n0e7021377 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:49:00 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:49:00 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > > Anyway, my point is that if this trial/error process of walking through > the list of possible destination before finding a correct one can be > extremely time consuming. So, if the "routing view" of the world > is not in sync with the "DNS view" of the world, unacceptable delays > may/will occur. A fair comment. Some workarounds (of varying levels of reasonableness): (1) Make sure the DNS view (as seen by the application) is accurate. (2) Try several 'likely' candidates in parallel. (3) Have a good metric for picking 'likely' candidates. This discussion of 'likeliness' moves us into the local vs global question. Let's first assume that the application doesn't have special needs (like address forwarding) and just wants a connection. If special needs exist then the app may need to cull the list of potential addresses to suit. If we already have a working connection between two endpoints, that's a good candidate. Of course, this may require looking external to the application. Ignoring this, what should we try first? Well, matching prefixes is good, since they are most likely to work. The only other advice would be that when connecting to and address we know is filtered to try to use another equally filtered address (as they are both 'probably' in the same space). Failing that, if connecting to an address beyond what we know about, try to use a similar address. Which looks surprising like local-local, then global-global (or try both at the same time). -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 23:07:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77678CM003254; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77678gY003253; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77671CM003246 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7764PV7023280 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7764Jfe016776 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:04:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7764G719983; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:04:16 +0300 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:04:16 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) In-Reply-To: <3F31D4AE.F49079FB@motorola.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Just responding to a few points.. On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > > - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent on anyone > > > or anything connected to the global internet. > > > > no, you need some form of globally unique address that isn't dependent > > on having an external internet connection. > > Nor on needing an external registration procedure. I'd like to be able to > turn my router on and have it all just work. [...] Sure, I'd not object to that either, but I could live with a registration procedure, especially if it's made simple. We're not talking about the registration procedure similar to obtaining e.g. an IPv4 /26-/29 from a RIR, i.e. a huge amount of headache and pain (for those who are not familiar with the procedures, at least). > > you've not shown any justification for that. what do you care what > > addresses are used as long as the traffic doesn't escape and/or the > > hosts that you don't want to be accessible from outside your > > network, aren't accessible from outside your network? > > When that 6to4 address goes away, I don't want my persistent sessions to be > forced to maintain a stale address. Why not? There's no problem with that, really. You can continue using bogus addresses as long as you want, the problems only start appearing when you reconnect. > > > I want hosts in my network to prefer global addresses when talking > > > externally. > > > > why not have them use global addresses whenever possible? it makes the > > applications MUCH simpler... > > Because (in the current context) there's no such thing? A local address is > an address that promises to be filtered. A global address is an address > that makes no promises. I've made a counter point several times, and some probably agree, but really think ANY solution which "promises" automatic filtering is a non-starter. It seems totally bogus to create an assumption that someone upstream will just do it and rely on that. YOU CAN'T RELY ON THAT. So the only reasonable approach is provisioning the filtering yourself (of course, it won't hurt if you contract the ISP to also do it .. when you filter yourself, you can easily check from filter counters whether the ISP did it or not). -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 23:41:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776fYCM004970; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h776fYBK004969; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776fUCM004961 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h776csV7001447 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (dsl092-066-067.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.66.67]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h776cife004048 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thrintun.hactrn.net (localhost [::1]) by thrintun.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1A318EA for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:38:44 -0400 From: Rob Austein To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) In-Reply-To: <3F31D4AE.F49079FB@motorola.com> References: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> <20030806230531.67ecaff0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F31D4AE.F49079FB@motorola.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/20.7 Mule/4.0 (HANANOEN) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20030807063844.0D1A318EA@thrintun.hactrn.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:25:18 +1000, Andrew White wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > > it's far easier to filter global addresses than to filter local ones. > > *boggle* Am I the only one that finds this claim nonsensical? I wouldn't phrase it as Keith did, but I think that I end up in the same place: it's easier to filter just global addresses than it is to filter both global and local addresses, particularly when there are so many inventive ways of combining different kinds of addresses to make still more addresses (eg, 6to4 + rfc 1918). Oh, you thought I -trusted- hosts with several thousand executable programs on them running who knows what to get this stuff right? Heck, I filter the NFS ports on boxes that have NFS disabled at compile time. Never trust any machine more complicated than a spoon. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 23:54:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776snCM005965; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h776snVN005964; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776sjCM005957 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h776q9Uu007665 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h776q3L0024151 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h776q27o193546 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:52:02 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h776q1nQ283710 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:52:01 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA47432 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:52:01 +0200 Message-ID: <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:51:59 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael, Sorry, but I think you are dead wrong, and you are moving us backward and risking another year or two of wasted time. There is nothing new in this whole argument. As I pointed out in the IAB architecture session in Vienna, these issues have been around for 6 years at least. We know what we can do with today's routing mechanisms, today's renumbering mechanisms, and today's security mechanisms, and that leads *directly* to the requirements in the Hain/Templin draft, and IMHO *directly* to the solution in the Hinden/Haberman draft. I think we are way past the point in history where it is fruitful to make the sort of free-space wish-the-world-was-different analysis you are advocating. Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK Michael Thomas wrote: > > Fred.Templin@nokia.com writes: > > If you think the document has a scoping issue (no pun intended), > > then let's discuss that with a measured tone. > > Yes, I think it has scoping issues. A name change, > for starters. It should first lay out requirements > of network operators, etc in terms of what they > need to accomplish not how they can accomplish it. > Take as a very large for example, address > stability. That's not the requirement, per > se. What they want is for topology tweaking to not > adversely affect running applications. However > protocols such as TCP are incapable of sustaining > sessions across address changes which is typically > needed when you want to move topology around. > That's the reason I say that "stability" is a > solution, not a requirement. Keeping addresses the > same is *a* way of keeping applications from > breaking, but not the only one. Mobile IP > obviously comes to mind, and there are other ways > we could envision like Fred's attempt at > operational renumbering. > > Another example is your "well known prefix". I'd > think that the requirement is that certain > services and/or classes of devices need to be > isolated and/or invisible from the other parts of > the net. A well known prefix is a way to do that, > but it doesn't necessitate local scope and again > isn't the only way to wall stuff off. > > I really don't want to drag this into a meta > argument about the merits of various solutions, > but only to point out that the entire document is > structured in a way that the answer is foregone. > That's not what we need right now. We need > something that tries to be unbiased about the > ultimate compromises we're going to have to make > by saying what we want (requirements), what the > possible frameworks are for addressing the > requirements, and most especially what their > possible downsides are. We don't need boosterism > which tries to paper over the warts; all possible > solutions have problems, what we need is an honest > evaluation so that we can decide which path is the > least objectionable. > > Mike > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 6 23:55:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776tBCM005979; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h776tBIG005978; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h776t5CM005970 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h776qSV7005003 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h776qNL0024305 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:52:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h776qMhx028927 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:52:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr06.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h776qIfG024498 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:52:20 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h776qHe7024692 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:52:17 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31F721.16095B5@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:52:17 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > > Just responding to a few points.. > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > When that 6to4 address goes away, I don't want my persistent sessions > > to be forced to maintain a stale address. > > Why not? There's no problem with that, really. You can continue using > bogus addresses as long as you want, the problems only start appearing > when you reconnect. Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. > I've made a counter point several times, and some probably agree, but > really think ANY solution which "promises" automatic filtering is a > non-starter. > > It seems totally bogus to create an assumption that someone upstream will > just do it and rely on that. YOU CAN'T RELY ON THAT. Agreed. Which is why my border router ALSO implements the same REQUIRED filter, no? *shrug* But this particular issue isn't about whether local addresses are filtered. It's whether an application can assume that global addresses are never filtered, and the answer is that it can't. Ergo, global addresses are also scoped addresses. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 00:04:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7774eCM006316; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7774d4Y006315; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7774WCM006308 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7771uUu010395 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7771nsF004227 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:01:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7771W508173; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:01:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3F31F94C.20507@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:01:32 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> In-Reply-To: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew White wrote: >A fair comment. > >Some workarounds (of varying levels of reasonableness): > > > > > > Great. Come back with an ID and running code. This increasingly hypothetical thread is fast approaching amateur night in layer 7. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 00:12:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h777CNCM006588; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h777CNLt006587; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h777CDCM006580 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7779XUu012411 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7779SWh006773 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h7779RBM000230 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:09:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr06.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h7779FfK001289 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:09:24 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aidanw.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.63]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7779Ce7025457; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:09:13 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F31FB17.3030505@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:09:11 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoff Huston CC: Alain Durand , Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Geoff Huston wrote: > At 06:30 PM 6/08/2003 +1000, Aidan Williams wrote: > > I can't see significant differences in process between globally > > unique local address allocation and a globally unique PI address > > allocation. > > I'd offer the view that there's a lot of difference. > OK, I can see how registries could have problems implementing centrally assigned random allocation as described in the draft. Is non-aggregable to registries and random selection inside those blocks a feasible alternative? A further comment: your document speaks positively of a rental service model for local addresses with non-payment causing the block to return to a pool. With a local address block, can that be made to stick? Having received an address allocation, where is the incentive to keep paying? Why not just default and keep using your "allocated" address.. Given the random selection process, reuse is unlikely and given that the address is local, noticable breakage is unlikely too. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 00:37:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h777btCM007505; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h777bsWX007504; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h777blCM007488 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h777ZAUu018854 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h777Z5L0016194 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:35:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 09:34:35 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h777WkfE022214; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:32:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:34:58 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:34:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:34:56 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'IPv6'" To: "Tony Hain" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <03f001c35c3e$23d0a570$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 07:34:58.0604 (UTC) FILETIME=[677526C0:01C35CB6] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 19:14 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: >> In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. > > Real or imaginary are perspectives of the onlooker. I suspect you > intended > 'globally routed'. Yes, sorry. As I only work in this space (below transport) with scuba-gear on, I often make mistakes when selecting crisp wording. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 01:20:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778KnCM009793; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h778KnXt009792; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778KiCM009785 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h778I8V7029290 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h778I1sF023688 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h778Hwc21216; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:17:58 +0300 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:17:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) In-Reply-To: <3F31F721.16095B5@motorola.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > Just responding to a few points.. > > > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > > When that 6to4 address goes away, I don't want my persistent sessions > > > to be forced to maintain a stale address. > > > > Why not? There's no problem with that, really. You can continue using > > bogus addresses as long as you want, the problems only start appearing > > when you reconnect. > > Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and > reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. > I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. Switch ISP or complain to them. I certainly wouldn't bear with that kind of behaviour. If that kind of ISP techniques are commonplace, we may need to do something. But I'm not sure if that's the case. Experiences? Note: consider how many of these techniques are used to prevent people from keeping servers at their home systems (i.e., does the ISP consider the changing address a bug or feature). Also consider how the situation would change (if any) with IPv6 provided by the ISP. Real example: at home, I use DHCP on DSL to get addresses. During 1 year, the addresses have changed _once_ (the ISP changed the prefix from which it allocated the DSL users' addresses). That's good enough for me, and I even manually glue all the IPv4 and resulting 6to4 addresses in my configuration files, filters etc. > > I've made a counter point several times, and some probably agree, but > > really think ANY solution which "promises" automatic filtering is a > > non-starter. > > > > It seems totally bogus to create an assumption that someone upstream will > > just do it and rely on that. YOU CAN'T RELY ON THAT. > > Agreed. Which is why my border router ALSO implements the same REQUIRED > filter, no? *shrug* The application does not know such a filter is implemented, hence it cannot assume security properties on specific kind of addresses. > It's whether an application can assume that global addresses are never > filtered, and the answer is that it can't. Ergo, global addresses are > also scoped addresses. There is a difference of a couple of degrees of magnitude here. Absolute yes/no are irrelevant (because there is always some filtering); it's more important to figure out the probability which results in the highest percentage of getting it right at the first try, a good percentage of doing well at the second if really needed etc. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 01:21:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778LRCM009815; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h778LRja009814; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778LMCM009804 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h778IkUu000416 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h778Idfe027427 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:18:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h778IP508303; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:18:25 +0200 Message-ID: <3F320B51.30303@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:18:25 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >around for 6 years at least. We know what we can do with today's >routing mechanisms, today's renumbering mechanisms, and today's >security mechanisms, and that leads *directly* to the requirements >in the Hain/Templin draft, and IMHO *directly* to the solution in >the Hinden/Haberman draft. > > > Could you give a reference to some text which describes this reasoning in more detail? I confess that I don't see the connections as clearly as you do. To me Michael has presented some pretty good points and even if you are right about the logical inevitability of the Hain/Templin draft it could imo benefit from a bit more stringency. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 01:32:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778WRCM010308; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h778WRWs010307; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h778WFCM010300 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h778TcUu002734 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h778TWjK005343 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h778T0508310; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:29:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3F320DCC.7060309@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:29:00 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Zefram'" Subject: Re: apps people? References: <042301c35c64$96f290b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <042301c35c64$96f290b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >Leif Johansson wrote: > > >>Of course we filter - >> >> > >What is your requirement to do that? I am serious, because those are the >things the current draft is trying to document. If it is not covered by the >current text, please send details. > > There are obvious reasons for filtering as Bob Austin pointed out last night/this morning (time-differentiated threads when you are wrapped-around is a nightmare :-) ) Our reasons are the typical ones - mostly protecting from various features in M$ software. An important point is that there are few hosts which are *only* local. In my experience a local-only host (eg a database-server part of a N-tier application) are comparatively rare. Using locally scoped addresses for those is just more work than putting the damned thing behind a firewall and filtering everything. Currently the largest set of locally scoped hosts in my network are phones. This is in itself a major pain since I am unable to deploy sip-to-the edge to these phones and consequently I am in the process of getting globally scoped addresses for these hosts. Right now I cannot find a single application where locally scoped addresses give me anything worth the effort. Those are my 5 cents - since you asked for details :-) Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 02:57:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h779vgCM013739; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h779vfuo013738; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h779vbCM013731 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h779t1V7021481 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h779stsF019527 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:54:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28770 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22403 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:48 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h779smx20550 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:48 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030807095448.GB20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <16174.65530.386480.558879@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16174.65530.386480.558879@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 05:53:14PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > > But I'm sorry, if NAT's become a de-facto > necessity for v6 native networks (putting aside > the need for v4/v6 NAT's), then I find the entire > premise of ipv6's utility deeply undermined. Quite > possibly fatally. IPv6 NAT will be a reality. NAT is one method of implementing policy that many organisations are using and will continue to use, whether for IPv4 or IPv6. However, currently many organisations, home networks, etc have no choice but to use NAT. IPv6 gives choice, and that's what we should build on, so people choose IPv6 for its advantages, and use it in a way that allows those advantages to be realised (not crippled). If some would rather use IPv6 with NAT, fine, but it's their loss (indeed they may as well stick with IPv4 and NAT :). I don't feel it's productive (apart from filling mailboxes :) to have this WG getting into heavy religion about something we can't stop. There are significant challenges in providing the alternative to address the PI, multihoming, etc requirements that Mike mentions, but let's not be under illusions that we can stop IPv6 NAT (whatever our beliefs about it) by any IETF decree. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:02:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A27CM013958; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77A27Q7013957; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A22CM013950 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h779xPV7022166 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h779xJsF020712 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28872 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:59:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22459 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:59:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h779xIs20612 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:59:18 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:59:18 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030807095918.GC20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 07:03:28PM -0700, Michel Py wrote: > > Fortunatly there are clued ISP's who do > > filter accordingly to: > > http://www.space.net/~gert/RIPE/ipv6-filters.html > > NRENS do filter too for what I have seen. Yes, they do, on /32 or /35. They are also likely to stop accepting 6bone routes soon (I believe GEANT will filter these in the next 2-3 months). Bad practice comes from those who aren't using IPv6 on a day-to-day basis. When there's dependency or money involved, polices will tighten :) Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:06:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A6UCM014093; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77A6UTV014092; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A6QCM014085 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77A3nV7023295 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77A3hsF022134 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:03:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28986 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:03:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22584 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:03:42 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77A3g320647 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:03:42 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:03:42 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030807100342.GD20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <20030805010902.9BDCB793@starfruit.itojun.org> <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <83D03241-C6F7-11D7-A834-000A959CF516@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk My preference is A, then B, then C. I also think we should keep the former site-local prefix IANA-reserved. BTW Patrik - does this mean you're not a fan of the source/destination address selection mechanism for IPv6? Tim On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 05:47:20AM +0200, Patrik Fältström wrote: > From an Application (above TCP) perspective, A, definitely A. Itojun > summarizes well the issues. Mandating a host to know topology is just a > really bad thing. Really really bad. > > paf > > > On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 03:09 Europe/Stockholm, Jun-ichiro itojun > Hagino wrote: > > >>I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > >> I > >>think the choices are: > >> > >>A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > >>alternative > >>solution available. This would mean that the working group should > >>treat > >>the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined > >>above > >>independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >>alternative > >>a replacement would not happen. > > > > my choice is (A). as we have discussed at SF (and probably prior > > meetings) site-local address has a lot of issues with it, for > >instance, > > - ambiguous address > > - can't be used referrals across site zones, and there's no way to > > determine if a site-local address is from out-of-site or not > > (because of ambiguity) > > - mandates hosts to know the topology, which we should not > >allow/mandate > > - site-border router issues, and (lack of) routing protocol > > functionality to handle it > > therefore sooner deprecation is better. > > > >itojun > >PS: each of the items are summary of discussions we had before, to my > >ears, > >don't try to comment on each items please. the point of the email is > >the very first sentence, and that's all. > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:06:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A6cCM014103; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77A6bcq014102; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77A6YCM014095 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77A3uV7023307 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77A3opo024366 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77A3mNG230958 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:03:49 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h77A3mBY277286 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:03:48 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21966 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:03:47 +0200 Message-ID: <3F322402.27C3CBAE@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:03:46 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local addresses, 6to4 and 2002:RFC1918 [Re: Moving forward onSite-Local and Local Addressing] References: <20030806110509.3de31e1f.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20030806153952.0d42aab7.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I'll file this in the place where I put things that might need fixing in RFC 3056 one of these years. Let's move on for now; we can argue about the exact words when the time comes. Brian Keith Moore wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > RFC 3056 says: > > > > > > > > Suppose that a subscriber site has at least one valid, globally > > > > unique 32-bit IPv4 address, referred to in this document as > > > > V4ADDR. This address MUST be duly allocated to the site by an > > > > address registry (possibly via a service provider) and it MUST > > > > NOT be a private address [RFC 1918]. > > > > > > > > Now, which word in "MUST NOT" is hard to understand? > > > > > > well, we don't say that hosts should block them. > > > > IMHO that would the wrong thing to do. The hosts should not care > > whether the prefix they're autoconfiguring from is from 2002::/16 or > > some other block. They don't implement 6to4, so making them care > > would seem like a layer violation. > > things that make no sense should be filtered, just like packets sourced > from a broadcast address. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:13:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77ADZCM014359; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77ADZpo014358; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77ADSCM014337 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AApV7025129 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77AAj3f009441 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:10:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29121 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:10:44 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22765 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:10:43 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77AAhS20715 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:10:43 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:10:43 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-ID: <20030807101043.GG20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F2FCD61.99E12BCF@zurich.ibm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 05:29:37PM +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Eliot, > > That seems to me to be orthogonal. I agree that it would be good to see > renumbering support (maybe it's a v6ops item??). But that doesn't destroy > the value of Bob's proposal. Best practice and standards consideration to make IPv6 renumbering less painful than IPv4 would seem an ideal v6ops WG item. It doesn't remove the need for PI, but it could help in the meantime. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:16:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AGfCM014414; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77AGfBd014413; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AGbCM014406 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AE0V7025648 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77ADssF024520 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:13:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29171 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:13:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22877 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:13:53 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77ADrJ20733 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:13:53 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:13:53 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-ID: <20030807101353.GI20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2F442F.5020100@cisco.com> <16175.62073.67518.580445@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16175.62073.67518.580445@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thirded, and agreed. IPv6 or V6Ops though? On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:07:53AM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote: > Eliot Lear writes: > > I'd like to put Fred on the spot (not having asked him) and propose that > > his draft be adopted as a WG doc. > > I'd like to second that. Fred's document if > nothing else shows how close we aren't to meeting > the operational goal of renumbering without > significant blood-letting. Also: Fred's document > is aimed at a solution for somebody with enough > leverage to join the providers BGP cabal. While > that's a start, it doesn't explore this problem > nearly enough, IMO, especially for BGP have-nots. > > Mike > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:25:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77APECM014659; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77APDVP014658; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AP9CM014650 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AMWUu027126 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77AMQ3f012174 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:22:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29338 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:22:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23071 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:22:25 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77AMPG20862 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:22:25 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:22:25 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <20030807102225.GK20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030805150754.GA10754@fysh.org> <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> <3F2FF2D2.7070602@iprg.nokia.com> <20030805145232.5b06ceb9.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030805145232.5b06ceb9.moore@cs.utk.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 02:52:32PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > No. That would admit the possibility of reusing that prefix for some > other purpose. What we really need is for all hosts and routers to > filter FEC0://10 packets unless explicitly configured to do otherwise. Actually while I agree with "A" I still want fec0::/10 available for me to use in a community wireless network, until a better alternative comes along - but of course I would have to "explicitly configure" that anyway. My concern for Bob's draft for a large private network is that I might prefer fec0::/10 than the "complexity" of registering 100+ non aggregated GUSL-style prefixes. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:32:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AWkCM014977; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77AWj5w014976; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AWeCM014963 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AU2Uu028377 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77ATusF028570 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29516 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:29:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06032 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:29:55 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77ATt420957 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:29:55 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:29:55 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-ID: <20030807102955.GM20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:40:52PM -0700, Michel Py wrote: > - If globally unique IPv6 address space is free, I am willing to give > these $2.5k/yr to my ISP to announce my /48. Well, the ISP announces it, but how far does it get? > On the operator side, I do acknowledge that we have some of them around > that do what they are supposed to and filter, thanks to people that > promote routing table health such as Jeroen and Gert. > That being said, the hard facts are that a) as of today 42% of my IPv6 > BGP routing table is made of /48s, /64s and other crud and b) lots of > ISP will think twice before refusing my $2.5k/yr to announce my prefix. That 42% is skewed due to IPv6 not being considered a production service (and the traffic volume is low) by many people carrying/transiting the traffic. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:34:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AYPCM014999; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77AYPnn014998; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AYJCM014991 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AVgUu028739 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77AVasF029103 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29585; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11280; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:35 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77AVZX21032; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:31:35 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Message-ID: <20030807103135.GN20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org References: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> <3F30A9DD.4050408@it.su.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F30A9DD.4050408@it.su.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk It's all on video. Memories and recollections are not required :) Tim On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:10:21AM +0200, Leif Johansson wrote: > Tony Hain wrote: > > >Keith Moore wrote: > > > > > >>Tony, > >> > >>there was strong concensus in the WG to deprecate SL. > >> > >> > > > >No, there was a question asked where there would be multiple undefined > >meanings for a Yes vote, and multiple undefined meanings for a No vote. > >Basically a blank check for the chair to tell the WG what it had decided. > > > > > > > On the contrary, I believe that there was strong consensus about the > nature of > the question. In fact (as I recall) at the meeting in SF there was > signifficant > discussion about the question posed - there was ample opportunity to > clear up > any remaining confusion about the question posed. > > MVH leifj > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:43:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AhaCM015395; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Ahaix015394; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77AhSCM015384 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AeoV7001066 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (118.cust8.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.235.118]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77AehvD022596 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:40:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A323B31C; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:10:40 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) From: Mark Smith To: Pekka Savola Cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 07 Aug 2003 20:10:40 +0930 Message-Id: <1060252842.1311.85.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Pekka, On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 17:47, Pekka Savola wrote: > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > > Just responding to a few points.. > > > > Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and > > reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. > > I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. > > Switch ISP or complain to them. I certainly wouldn't bear with that kind > of behaviour. > > If that kind of ISP techniques are commonplace, we may need to do > something. But I'm not sure if that's the case. Experiences? > Here in Australia, the former government monopoly, now pseudo-government (50.(something)%) / private (49.(something)%) telco, Telstra, owns the CAN, which is used for pretty much all residential (at least probably 99%) ADSL. Telstra use the ADSL network for both their own retail residential customers, as well as wholesaling it to other ISPs, large and small. Since the realisation that dial-up was a dying technology, a lot of the dial up ISPs are providing ADSL, wholesaling it from Telstra. According to this page (http://www.broadbandchoice.com.au/isp-list.cfm), there are currently 149 residential ISPs in Australia, which is probably quite a lot for a country with only 20 million or so people. A typical residential ADSL service is : * Single IPv4 address, so you have to use NAT if you want more than one machine (although at least one enlightened ISP allows up to 8 PPP(oE|oA) logins at once on a single ADSL service) * A download cap eg 1000MB, 4000MB, etc. per month, with extra MB charged at around $0.15 each etc * The single IPv4 address can change over time. Most ISPs don't specify the time period, and it varies, but I expect that having the same single IPv4 address for a week is starting to be an an exception, rather than a rule. Some ISPs have introduced "unlimited" download plans, where, over a rolling period, the more you download, the less priority your packets get against other customers traffic. A lot of these ISPs also want to provide business ADSL over the same wholesaled ADSL infrastructure. They typically do this by : * Guaranteeing a single IPv4 address, that won't change. * Optionally routing a prefix for the customer LAN ie. no NAT. A lot of small business customers probably don't take this up, probably because they are told about the "security" using NAT. I'd suspect in most cases not having to change internal IPv4 addressing is not even a "NAT or not" consideration. * Providing a different helpdesk ph#, with shorter response times. * Providing much lower download caps, to make more revenue on business users downloading data. Of course, they also charge a lot more for the business service, typically twice as much or more, than the residential ADSL service. Apparently, a lot of small businesses are going with residential plans, as they don't find the business plan differences to be worth the money. (http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm?id=1165&show=replies) A lot of residential users, such as myself, get around some of the changing IPv4 address issues by using dynamic DNS services, such as http://www.dyndns.org. I run a client on my linux server, which watches the ppp0 interface. When the IPv4 address changes, it goes and updates the corresponding DNS RR with the new IPv4 address information. The TTL on the RRs is 60s. It would seem that a lot of residential ADSL users want to have domain names to the point where some ADSL router vendors are even building dynamic DNS clients into their devices. (ps, being a purist (or just enlightened maybe) I don't run NAT. I only have one PC that I want connected to the Internet, though, so I don't need to either.) > Note: consider how many of these techniques are used to prevent people > from keeping servers at their home systems (i.e., does the ISP consider > the changing address a bug or feature). Certainly a feature. ISPs quickly learnt not to filter incoming TCP / UDP ports to prevent people running "servers", http or otherwise, so they use the reliability of the single IPv4 address they allocate as a dis-incentive to running a "server". "Uploads" typically aren't capped, so you could run a heavily trafficed server, with only the client's TCP Acks contributing to your download quota. Of course TCP Acks are pretty small, you can fit a lot of them within a monthly quota of 1000 or 4000 MB. Also consider how the situation > would change (if any) with IPv6 provided by the ISP. > I'd suspect they would probably allocate periodically changing /128s to their residential ADSL users. Of course, 6to4 is a way around that, but it probably won't take them long to wise up and start filtering that. > Real example: at home, I use DHCP on DSL to get addresses. During 1 year, > the addresses have changed _once_ (the ISP changed the prefix from which > it allocated the DSL users' addresses). That's good enough for me, and I > even manually glue all the IPv4 and resulting 6to4 addresses in my > configuration files, filters etc. So what is the weather like in Finland ? I might consider moving :-) Hope my (long winded) description is useful, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 03:51:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77ApQCM016009; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77ApQ8w016008; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77ApKCM015987 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77AmhUu002746 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 03:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77AmbsF003555 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:48:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00131 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:48:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05942 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:48:36 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h77Amag21329 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:48:36 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:48:36 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030807104836.GS20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:25:56AM -0700, Christian Huitema wrote: > > Let's be clear. Our group (Windows Networking) has received a lot of feedback from developers of applications on the Windows platform. The negative developers' feedback was mostly centered on the difficulty of identifying the scope of an address, specially when a node is connected to several sites (e.g. home network and VPN to the corporate network), or when a node moves from site to site. Since the scope is not indicated in the address itself, applications have to keep track of a "site identifier" of some kind. The bottom line is that ambiguity hurts. The local scope nature also hurts, but not quite as much; it is another case of limited connectivity, which is a common "feature" in many networks. Change the flow label to scope label, and get those bits in use ;-) Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 04:31:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77BV0CM019035; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77BUx1f019033; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77BUqCM019016 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77BSEV7014145 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77BS8po005074 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:28:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77BRq508508; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:27:52 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3237B8.6030207@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:27:52 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal References: <032401c35bb2$6859fca0$70144104@eagleswings> <3F30A9DD.4050408@it.su.se> <20030807103135.GN20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030807103135.GN20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tim Chown wrote: >It's all on video. Memories and recollections are not required :) > > > Are you saying that my recollectons are wrong? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 04:33:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77BXVCM019271; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77BXUfl019270; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77BXMCM019258 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77BUjV7014814 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77BUcsF015078 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77BUTs23062; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:30:30 +0300 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:30:29 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Mark Smith cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) In-Reply-To: <1060252842.1311.85.camel@dupy> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Mark, Thanks for the long reply; I found it very interesting. A few more comments in-line.. (hopefully this won't drift too far off-topic..) On 7 Aug 2003, Mark Smith wrote: > On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 17:47, Pekka Savola wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > > > Just responding to a few points.. > > > > > > Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and > > > reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. > > > I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. > > > > Switch ISP or complain to them. I certainly wouldn't bear with that kind > > of behaviour. > > > > If that kind of ISP techniques are commonplace, we may need to do > > something. But I'm not sure if that's the case. Experiences? > [...] > Since the realisation that dial-up was a dying technology, a lot of the > dial up ISPs are providing ADSL, wholesaling it from Telstra. According > to this page (http://www.broadbandchoice.com.au/isp-list.cfm), there are > currently 149 residential ISPs in Australia, which is probably quite a > lot for a country with only 20 million or so people. Ok, that's a lot: how many of these is typically available in a geographical area? That is, when you live in city X, how many possible ISP's are there? That is, do the ISPs have any incentive to be competitive about the customers? I.e. if one ISP provided static addresses "for free" (or something) but still the regular bandwith caps, would that possibly spark some interest for people to change to that model (and in turn, perhaps encourage the other ISPs to also change their IP assignment model..) > A typical residential ADSL service is : > > * Single IPv4 address, so you have to use NAT if you want more than one > machine (although at least one enlightened ISP allows up to 8 PPP(oE|oA) > logins at once on a single ADSL service) This is no problem in itself (IMO).. [...] > * The single IPv4 address can change over time. Most ISPs don't specify > the time period, and it varies, but I expect that having the same single > IPv4 address for a week is starting to be an an exception, rather than a > rule. .. but this might be. Do all (or most) of the ISPs changing the address also provide "premium" static IP service? I assume your home PC (based on your description) is always on, so that these changes are not causes by e.g. reboots or DHCP lease expirations? [snip a lot of interesting detail] > A lot of these ISPs also want to provide business ADSL over the same > wholesaled ADSL infrastructure. They typically do this by : > > * Guaranteeing a single IPv4 address, that won't change. > > * Optionally routing a prefix for the customer LAN ie. no NAT. > > A lot of small business customers probably don't take this up, probably > because they are told about the "security" using NAT. I'd suspect in > most cases not having to change internal IPv4 addressing is not even a > "NAT or not" consideration. Is it significantly more costly to obtain e.g. the static IPv4 address as a premium service? For homes? > > Note: consider how many of these techniques are used to prevent people > > from keeping servers at their home systems (i.e., does the ISP consider > > the changing address a bug or feature). > > Certainly a feature. > > ISPs quickly learnt not to filter incoming TCP / UDP ports to prevent > people running "servers", http or otherwise, so they use the reliability > of the single IPv4 address they allocate as a dis-incentive to running a > "server". One might be able to make up a few legimate reasons for unnecessarily changing IP addresses, but I think the real reason is possibly the business case, and developing IPv6 might not actually help the situation that much.. > > Also consider how the situation > > would change (if any) with IPv6 provided by the ISP. > > > > I'd suspect they would probably allocate periodically changing /128s to > their residential ADSL users. Let's hope not. > > Real example: at home, I use DHCP on DSL to get addresses. During 1 year, > > the addresses have changed _once_ (the ISP changed the prefix from which > > it allocated the DSL users' addresses). That's good enough for me, and I > > even manually glue all the IPv4 and resulting 6to4 addresses in my > > configuration files, filters etc. > > So what is the weather like in Finland ? I might consider moving :-) At the moment it's nice, but Winters here are _real_, not like there Down Under... :-) -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 05:01:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77C1HCM020342; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77C1HDX020341; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77C1BCM020331 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77BwYV7020226 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77BwS3f006171 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:58:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77BwPNG243926 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:58:26 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h77BwPnQ285006 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:58:25 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21894 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:58:24 +0200 Message-ID: <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:22 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no sort of consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact no consensus to be reached. 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? Is the DMZ inside or outside the site? etc.) 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps security boundaries, reachability boundaries, routing boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a combination. 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking phenomena, such as intermittently connected networks, mobile nodes, mobile networks, inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and splits, etc. Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be mapped into concentric circles such as a naive link/local/global model. Scopes overlap and extend into one another. The scope relationship between two hosts may even be different for different protocols. 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in firewall rules, VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, application level trickery, configuration files, and brains. 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to express scope concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we can forget about expecting middleware to do anything sensible about scope. So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address format is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a single- valued function in the first place. I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK Nir Arad wrote: > > Hi, > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm glad Yibo did. > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve all-so-many problems. > I would go further to allow nodes to only send, receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be wrong, but it seems to me the silver bullet for: > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > interfaces) > - Simplifying address selection > - Cleaning the routing tables > - Simplifying router design and setup > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address architecture, and more important, the forseeable and > unforseeable changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that identifies the source/destination address > scopes. > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > Regards, > > -- Nir Arad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Yibo Zhang" > To: "Alain Durand" > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might be able to > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local addresses > > with a Range or Scope field like the multicast addresses. > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and could > > even help the WG move the current situation forward more smoothly and > > smartly. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 05:04:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77C4KCM020386; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77C4J85020385; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77C4ECM020378 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77C1bUu020343 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77C1VcZ008401 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77C1U7o115810 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:01:30 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h77C1TnQ229368 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:01:29 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21800 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:01:28 +0200 Message-ID: <3F323F97.221B1029@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:01:27 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt References: <870397D7C140C84DB081B88396458DAF64879E@zrc2c000.us.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Peter Barany wrote: > > Hi, > > Two questions about this I-D: > > (1) In Section 3.2.3 "Sample Code for Pseudo-Random Global ID Algorithm", step (1) of the algorithm states: > "Obtain the current time of day in 64-bit NTP format (NTP)" > Question: Would it be possible to have the I-D specify that "how the current time of day is obtained is beyond the scope of > this document"? What is specified is the format, not the source. It's necessary to specify a format in order to specify an algorithm. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 05:52:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77CpvCM022776; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77CpvM3022775; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77CpnCM022759 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77CnCUu001208 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nosense.org (118.cust8.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.235.118]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Cn5vD023426 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:49:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C03F3B31C; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:19:02 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) From: Mark Smith To: Pekka Savola Cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 07 Aug 2003 22:19:02 +0930 Message-Id: <1060260544.1448.157.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 21:00, Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Thanks for the long reply; I found it very interesting. Thanks for reading it. A few more > comments in-line.. > > (hopefully this won't drift too far off-topic..) > Hopefully. > On 7 Aug 2003, Mark Smith wrote: > > On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 17:47, Pekka Savola wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > > > > Just responding to a few points.. > > > > > > > [...] > > Since the realisation that dial-up was a dying technology, a lot of the > > dial up ISPs are providing ADSL, wholesaling it from Telstra. According > > to this page (http://www.broadbandchoice.com.au/isp-list.cfm), there are > > currently 149 residential ISPs in Australia, which is probably quite a > > lot for a country with only 20 million or so people. > > Ok, that's a lot: how many of these is typically available in a > geographical area? That is, when you live in city X, how many possible > ISP's are there? > There are only 8 major cities in Australia, with the majority of the population living in them. I live in Adelaide, which as a population of about 1.2 million people, the forth largest city after Sydney, population 4 million. According to the Adelaide page on at the same site (http://www.broadbandchoice.com.au/), there are 97 ISPs ! (I'm a little surprised ... that is a lot.) A number of them are "national" though, pretty much only because they use Telstra's national ADSL network. > That is, do the ISPs have any incentive to be competitive about the > customers? > You'd think :-) It seems that most of them follow Telstra's retail product lead - there isn't all that much difference between plans. Most of the smaller ISPs seem to win and / or keep business because of better, more responsive customer service, not product differentiation. There seems to be enough demand that maintaining the status quo is a good business plan. > I.e. if one ISP provided static addresses "for free" (or something) but > still the regular bandwith caps, would that possibly spark some interest > for people to change to that model (and in turn, perhaps encourage the > other ISPs to also change their IP assignment model..) > I don't think so. Some of them are, it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference. I'm under a contract at moment, and fixed IPv4 addresses has only been introduced within roughly the last 12 months. For those of us that care about running a server, primarily in my case an SMTP server, the dynamic dns services are a pretty effective work around. Initially I didn't like the idea of dynamic dns, then I though "hey, IPv6 is designed with the assumption of changing network layer addresses, so as long as the domain name stays constant, the IPv4 address changing occasionally shouldn't matter that much either" :-) I've had some concerns email not being delivered because I dropped off of the net temporarily due to an IPv4 address change, but sending SMTP servers will try to deliver incoming mail for a few days, I should be back up and running within that time period. > > A typical residential ADSL service is : > > > > * Single IPv4 address, so you have to use NAT if you want more than one > > machine (although at least one enlightened ISP allows up to 8 PPP(oE|oA) > > logins at once on a single ADSL service) > > This is no problem in itself (IMO).. > I don't know, we all know how NAT is breaking the Internet :-) I follow and contribute to the Networking forum (plus a few others) on this web site (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/), it is quite common to see people asking how they get their p2p apps working through their NATting ADSL routers. (as a related side note, have a read of this thread for an example of what a commonly known ADSL router vendor is telling their end-users about IPv4 NAT - http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=103689) > [...] > > * The single IPv4 address can change over time. Most ISPs don't specify > > the time period, and it varies, but I expect that having the same single > > IPv4 address for a week is starting to be an an exception, rather than a > > rule. > > .. but this might be. > > Do all (or most) of the ISPs changing the address also provide "premium" > static IP service? > Usually those ISPs call them their "Business ADSL" plans. > I assume your home PC (based on your description) is always on, so that > these changes are not causes by e.g. reboots or DHCP lease expirations? > I'd guess most of the time it is ISP policy, sometimes equipment reboots at their end. > [snip a lot of interesting detail] > > A lot of these ISPs also want to provide business ADSL over the same > > wholesaled ADSL infrastructure. They typically do this by : > > > > * Guaranteeing a single IPv4 address, that won't change. > > > > * Optionally routing a prefix for the customer LAN ie. no NAT. > > > > A lot of small business customers probably don't take this up, probably > > because they are told about the "security" using NAT. I'd suspect in > > most cases not having to change internal IPv4 addressing is not even a > > "NAT or not" consideration. > > Is it significantly more costly to obtain e.g. the static IPv4 address as > a premium service? For homes? > Most ISPs don't offer that service at all or will tell you to buy one of their business ADSL services. Looking at four of the more major ISPs in Adelaide, only one allocates a static IPv4 address, but their plans are not very good value for money. Compared to the plan I'm on at the moment, it would cost me 30% more ie. $30 more, with 1000MB of less data download a month. Since the dynamic dns solution is working pretty well for me, I probably would not be prepared to pay that extra 30%, even though I'd like to have a fixed IPv4 address. (I'm realising I'm slightly out of touch with the market regarding nobody giving static IPv4 address, when you are under a contract for a period, you don't bother looking at it too hard). > > > Note: consider how many of these techniques are used to prevent people > > > from keeping servers at their home systems (i.e., does the ISP consider > > > the changing address a bug or feature). > > > > Certainly a feature. > > > > ISPs quickly learnt not to filter incoming TCP / UDP ports to prevent > > people running "servers", http or otherwise, so they use the reliability > > of the single IPv4 address they allocate as a dis-incentive to running a > > "server". > > One might be able to make up a few legimate reasons for unnecessarily > changing IP addresses, but I think the real reason is possibly the > business case, I agree. and developing IPv6 might not actually help the situation > that much.. > If they are using limiting the number and the stability of IPv4 addresses as a significant product differentiater between residential and business products, RFC3117 recommended /48 allocations, and even the /64 allocations are a big dis-incentive to deploying IPv6 to their customers. > > > Also consider how the situation > > > would change (if any) with IPv6 provided by the ISP. > > > > > > > I'd suspect they would probably allocate periodically changing /128s to > > their residential ADSL users. > > Let's hope not. > > > > Real example: at home, I use DHCP on DSL to get addresses. During 1 year, > > > the addresses have changed _once_ (the ISP changed the prefix from which > > > it allocated the DSL users' addresses). That's good enough for me, and I > > > even manually glue all the IPv4 and resulting 6to4 addresses in my > > > configuration files, filters etc. > > > > So what is the weather like in Finland ? I might consider moving :-) > > At the moment it's nice, but Winters here are _real_, not like there Down > Under... :-) > You're talking to a man who has never *actually* seen snow, other than on the television. Closest I've come to it is the freezer :-) The coldest day I can remember in the last 15 years or so was 9 degrees celcius. Now that was _cold_ ! :-) Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 05:55:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77CtmCM022897; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Ctmsa022896; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77CthCM022889 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77Cr6V7002838 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77CqxsF007068 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77Cqwch192014 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:52:58 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h77CqwnQ263610 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:52:58 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26938 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:52:57 +0200 Message-ID: <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:52:55 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Geoff Huston wrote: > > Brian Carptener writes: > > > > > http://www.apnic.net/meetings/16/programme/sigs/docs/policy/addpol-doc-huston-local-use-addrs.doc > > > attempts to to refine this draft into some considerations from a registry > > > perspective. (If there's interest > > > I'll put this out as an Internet Draft) > > > >Geoff, > > > >Three comments on your draft: > > Thank you for reviewing the document > > >1. I don't think the RIRs as institutions have any special standing > >to comment on the locally-assigned variant in draft-hinden. It's a > >technical choice for the WG and the IETF. If you're arguing personally > >that you don't like the birthday paradox risk, let's discuss it. > > It is an individual document, as stated by listing only myself as the author. > It is not an RIR document, and it does not represent any RIR position. > As an individual IETF participant I have as much standing to comment > on the locally assigned random choice proposal as any other > individual, obviously. Of course. But some of the phrasing suggested to me, perhaps falsely, that you were thinking of processing this draft via the RIRs. There may certainly be RIR issues later on, but for now the IETF seems the right forum. (so, in answer to your earlier question, this could become an I-D, or we can enrol you as an experimental SIR and call it a SIR review.) > > The probability of a collision using random choice is not a paradox. Its > a simple calculation, using the formula as given in the document. Well, the birthday paradox isn't really a paradox either. > > The observation is that even though the /8 space contains > 1.1 trillion entries, there is a greater than 0.5 probability that there will > be a clash after some 1.2 million draws. Normally this would not matter in the > slightest, BUT the proposal also notes a potential to use these addresses > in the context of end point identifiers, and in such a case there is > a strict requirement for uniqueness, and my observation is that self-driven > random choice is inadequate. Its not a paradox risk. Its just the underlying > mathematics of random draw probabilities. The question is whether we think that risk is acceptable to an individual site. The odds are much worse than would be acceptable in a cryptographic context, but I don't think that is the right criterion. After all, whatever pseudo-random value I use, you can copy and spoof anyway - that's a much greater risk than random collision, even with millions of values in use. > >2. Most of your arguments appear to be hinting at a re-run of the ICANN > >wars for the centrally assigned variant. Well, that's why there is an > >analogy with .org in the draft. You may be right that the pricing level > >should be set competitively, but I really don't see this being a gold > >rush. There's not much marketing value in a random number. In any case, > >you're correct that the IETF can't decide this, but we need to give IANA > >the clearest instructions possible. > > I honestly can't make any sense of these sentences. Could you please > rephrase it? Not sure. Let me try. You argue that granting a monopoly over the assignment of unique pseudo-random numbers against a small fee won't be found acceptable. I'm arguing that this is analagous to the thinking that led to the Green Paper, ICANN, and eventually to alternative TLD registries. But I'm also arguing that random numbers won't generate the kind of South Sea Bubble madness we saw around domain names, so it should be easier to get to a non-profit solution for the public good. And I'm agreeing with you that the IETF's role in this is limited to setting technical boundary conditions, leaving IANA to solve the non-technical issues. > > >Incidentally, since these are not routeable addresses, and have no > >geography, it doesn't follow that the RIRs have a role in this part > >of the address space. In fact, the RIRs might be quite uncomfortable > >with the idea of competing in the sale of random numbers. > > It may be. It may not. But attempting to second guess anyone, as > you appear to be doing in your comment, No. Your draft seemed to me to imply that the RIRs automatically have a role in this type of address space. I just want to say that isn't at all obvious to me, and it isn't obvious to me that they'd even want such a role. > without at least > allowing them the courtesy of consideration of the issues is not normally > considered a very wise course of action. I'd be amazed if the RIRs didn't consider them. > So this document is > considering the issues and looking at the pros and cons of various > forms of distribution, and looking at an RIR perspective in > considering the implications of a central registry function of > such local use allocations. You'd prefer that this analysis was > done behind closed doors? No. I think it's actually a bit premature, since the IETF hasn't decided if it wants to go this way, but it's much better discussed in public (as the RIRs have done with many other issues). > I'd be tempted to guess that your > answer would be a 'no', but I'll avoid the temptation to second > guess you and leave it for you to answer. > > >3. I feel strongly that this absolutely needs to be a one-time fee. > >The idea of constructing an artificial service industry to maintain > >an annual registration system for random numbers is plain wasteful. > > And the document considers this approach as well as others. Interestingly > enough there are other perspectives here to the one you've stated, and > there are pros and cons to each of them, and the document explores > some aspects of these considerations. You appear to offer the hint > here that its in some manner heretical behaviour to explore alternatives. What we're dealing with here is intrinsically a much simpler problem than the RIRs had to solve for aggregatable address space when CIDR arrived. There are very good reasons why routeable address space allocation requires policies, justifications, and annual fees. I will take a lot of convincing that we can't fund a one-time pseudo-random allocation with a one-time fee. After all, if after a few years nobody applies for numbers any more, the escrowed numbers can be saved on a CD and the registry can close down, and there's no need for continued fees. I'm really after a KISS solution here. Of course it isn't heretical to discuss alternatives, but let's look for the simplest way that works. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 06:23:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77DNHCM024076; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77DNG6q024075; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77DN9CM024058 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77DKWUu007883 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77DKRcZ020845 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D92140F1; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17794-02; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7793F13FF3; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:20:25 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Message-Id: <20030807092025.55deab42.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk binding scope to an address works about as well as binding QoS to an address. sure you can do it as a hack, and it's fairly easy for the network to implement, but it's a royal pain for hosts and apps. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 06:45:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77DjSCM025093; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77DjSFQ025092; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77DjMCM025082 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77DgiUu013008 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowl.fysh.org ([195.167.170.152]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Dgc3f005366 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:42:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kl2L-0005X2-00; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:42:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:42:37 +0100 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Message-ID: <20030807134237.GB27037@fysh.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. I find it not entirely bogus, but if it's to be part of the addressing architecture then it needs to be handled *everywhere* that the addresses are handled. Apps that expect to represent an IPv6 address in 128 bits fail when they are presented with an address where the 128 bits isn't really the entire address. Really, we can only have scope where we're prepared to require every application to know about it. Link-local scope works just fine in IPv6, because these addresses are used only by very specialised programs (such as routing code within IPv6 stacks) that need to know about different links anyway and have no problem attaching a link ID to each address. The scope aspects of IPv6 multicast similarly seem less troublesome, at least to me: it's so inherent in the multicast addressing architecture that it really can't be ignored, but the need to handle it is localised to programs that do multicast. Where we really can't do scoping is in ordinary unicast addressing. This needs to be kept as simple as possible for the application layer, because it's going to be handled in simple ways whether we like it or not. Few enough IPv4 applications cope with multiple addresses properly, we'll be lucky if we have *that* done properly by IPv6 apps. >5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in firewall rules, >VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, application level trickery, >configuration files, and brains. Now here's one of the big problems. IPv6 nodes don't have any way to talk to each other about scopes. Site-local addresses suffer from looking a lot like global addresses in the way they are used. I can imagine some neat things that could be done if scoping (or, more generally, context sensitivity in the interpretation of addresses) were a pervasive and inherent part of unicast addressing -- but they require nodes to tell each other about relationships between scopes, do address translations, and so on. IPv6 scopes just sit there: they don't *do* anything. (Yes, I'm getting rather abstract here.) >6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. >In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to express scope >concepts could be defined. I think the right language to express useful scope concepts doesn't exist yet. >I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. For this generation of network protocols, certainly. I think proper use of scoping requires an additional level of complexity that we're not prepared for (and, institutionally, the IETF can't really comprehend). The ways of using scope that I imagine require that scoping is used solely as an implementation technique, and that the network layer provide to higher layers (both apps and humans) the illusion of stable global identifiers. For now I think the right approach is to provide globally-scoped identifiers and work on the stability problem from several angles. -zefram -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 07:15:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EExCM026372; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77EExk2026371; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EErCM026356 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77ECGUu019831 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77EC9ag002272 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:12:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.88]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h77F9W6D026018 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:09:32 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <019201c35cf6$cb467b50$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Let's (not) abolish scope Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:15:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk My comments inline. -- Nir Arad > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no sort of > consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact no consensus to be > reached. I disagree. I think that there are several consensus that were reached: 1. Site-local addresses, as currently defined, are bad. Hence the WG concensus to deprecate. 2. Many people think that scoped addresses are required. I conclude this from the fact that draft-hinden was accepted as a WG item. Indeed, some people think they are not, but even they can't claim that no-one thinks it is required. As Voltaire said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." > > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? Is the DMZ > inside or outside the site? etc.) > At this point I completely agree with you. However, I still beleive that we can reach a better definition. My personal opinion is to have link-local, global, and keep all other scopes as administrative. If you return to my suggestion, that the source and destination addresses MUST belong to the same scope, it is clear that a DMZ must have a global address to communicate with the rest of the world. > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps security boundaries, > reachability boundaries, routing boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > combination. > This is a very good point. I think that for each definition of scope you will give, there will be 5 or more people in this WG to embrace it, and 20 against. My personal stand is that we should not take a stand. Let administrators define this as they wish. > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking phenomena, such > as intermittently connected networks, mobile nodes, mobile networks, > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and splits, etc. > Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be mapped into concentric > circles such as a naive link/local/global model. Scopes overlap and > extend into one another. The scope relationship between two hosts may > even be different for different protocols. > Again, only my 2 cents: Those overlaps and extensions are The source of all evil. Per my suggestion, when two sites merge, instead of routing from one scope to another, I would like to see all hosts in the merged network get a second address, in a new, shared scope. The old scopes of both networks can be kept for a long time, or even forever, so existing applications/session are not broken. I think we (the WG) should work to make sure that the allocation of additional addresses is made simple, and not shout right away that this is an administrative nightmare and thus is not acceptable. > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in firewall rules, > VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, application level trickery, > configuration files, and brains. > This is correct in IPv4. IPv6 can still be a whole new world. Scopes should become explicit. As one of my co-workers always say: "Keep it simple!" > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to express scope > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we can forget > about expecting middleware to do anything sensible about scope. > Trying to fully respond to that here would be hasty of me, so I'll avoid that. Nevertheless, it seems that there is some level of concensus that applications should permit a minimal level of selection between global addresses and "other" addresses (whatever those end up to be). I think this would be enough to come up with a solution according to my suggestion. But this is work to be done, and not a reason to dismiss an idea. > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address format > is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a single- > valued function in the first place. > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > Thanks for the detailed response - no flames from my side... > Brian > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Brian E Carpenter > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm glad Yibo did. > > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve all-so-many problems. > > I would go further to allow nodes to only send, receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be wrong, but it seems to me the silver bullet for: > > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > > interfaces) > > - Simplifying address selection > > - Cleaning the routing tables > > - Simplifying router design and setup > > > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address architecture, and more important, the forseeable and > > unforseeable changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that identifies the source/destination address > > scopes. > > > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > > > Regards, > > > > -- Nir Arad > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Yibo Zhang" > > To: "Alain Durand" > > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might be able to > > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local addresses > > > with a Range or Scope field like the multicast addresses. > > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and could > > > even help the WG move the current situation forward more smoothly and > > > smartly. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 07:40:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EedCM027310; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Eecvw027309; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EeXCM027302 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77EbuV7028686 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77EboXu027064 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:37:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.88]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h77FZC6D009684 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:35:12 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <01c001c35cfa$615844e0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com><3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com><3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com><024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote><023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38><3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> <20030807092025.55deab42.moore@cs.utk.edu> Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:41:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As things stand today, you are right - "Scope" becomes only another factor in the routing decision of a packet. However, if we make it more explicit, and allow communication only among addresses at the same scope, I don't see it as such a pain to hosts and apps. Address selection is not to complex (not as simple as "everyone have a global address", but far simpler than what we have now). Could you be more specific? -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Moore" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > binding scope to an address works about as well as binding QoS to an > address. sure you can do it as a hack, and it's fairly easy for the > network to implement, but it's a royal pain for hosts and apps. > > Keith > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 07:51:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EpMCM027709; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77EpMf7027708; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EpICM027701 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77EmeV7001713 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77EmZ4V009135 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 16:48:08 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h77EkKQL014824; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:46:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:48:34 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:48:33 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:48:32 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Tim Chown From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20030807100342.GD20233@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-Id: <36F46480-C8E6-11D7-91C9-000A959CF516@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 14:48:33.0794 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9B81E20:01C35CF2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77EpICM027702 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On torsdag, aug 7, 2003, at 12:03 Europe/Stockholm, Tim Chown wrote: > My preference is A, then B, then C. > > I also think we should keep the former site-local prefix IANA-reserved. > > BTW Patrik - does this mean you're not a fan of the source/destination > address selection mechanism for IPv6? To be honest, I have concentrated on looking at the problem which Brian touched on. Say you have some application which is to send an email to tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk. Today, one look up MX for ecs.soton.ac.uk and sort them. Then A RR is looked up, and for each result set you try the IP addresses in order. Now when having IPv6 as well, one have to look for A and AAAA RR. This makes things even more complicated, and the same problem exists for every protocol which have such indirection (NS, MX, SRV,... record types) which will over time be _all_ protocols. Simply because we need the indirection. Now, if we on top of this have scoped addresses of any kind in IPv6, which forces the _application_ (on top of transport layer) to select "the best address"... That I definitely do NOT like. What is acceptable for me is some algorithm which still make it possible for an application to do: data = gethostbyname(hostname,service); socket = bind(data); fd = open(socket); Well, in principle, and the calls doesn't have to be named exactly that. BUT, my point is that I don't care what the gethostbyname or bind or open call do. That should be invisible for the application. What I have heard IPv6 people asking me as an application developer is to suddenly change this pretty simple algorithm to do something more complicated. And, when I talk with people like Itojun which implements these black boxes (I only write the gethostbyname equivalent above) he strongly as you all saw argues as well for [A] because doing scoped addresses of any kind in what I call "black boxes" is not possible. That is evidence enough for me. Don't know if I answer your question though ;-) paf > Tim > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 05:47:20AM +0200, Patrik Fältström wrote: >> From an Application (above TCP) perspective, A, definitely A. Itojun >> summarizes well the issues. Mandating a host to know topology is just >> a >> really bad thing. Really really bad. >> >> paf >> >> >> On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 03:09 Europe/Stockholm, Jun-ichiro itojun >> Hagino wrote: >> >>>> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should >>>> proceed. >>>> I >>>> think the choices are: >>>> >>>> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an >>>> alternative >>>> solution available. This would mean that the working group should >>>> treat >>>> the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined >>>> above >>>> independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >>>> alternative >>>> a replacement would not happen. >>> >>> my choice is (A). as we have discussed at SF (and probably prior >>> meetings) site-local address has a lot of issues with it, for >>> instance, >>> - ambiguous address >>> - can't be used referrals across site zones, and there's no way to >>> determine if a site-local address is from out-of-site or not >>> (because of ambiguity) >>> - mandates hosts to know the topology, which we should not >>> allow/mandate >>> - site-border router issues, and (lack of) routing protocol >>> functionality to handle it >>> therefore sooner deprecation is better. >>> >>> itojun >>> PS: each of the items are summary of discussions we had before, to my >>> ears, >>> don't try to comment on each items please. the point of the email is >>> the very first sentence, and that's all. >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >>> IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >>> FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >>> Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >> IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >> FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >> Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 07:56:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EuZCM027852; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77EuZHX027851; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77EuTCM027838 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77ErpUu000437 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 07:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com [47.103.122.112]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77ErmXu007476 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zrc2c011.us.nortel.com (zrc2c011.us.nortel.com [47.103.120.51]) by zrc2s0jx.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h77Erfh08533; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: by zrc2c011.us.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <301T0VX4>; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:42 -0500 Message-ID: <870397D7C140C84DB081B88396458DAF6487A2@zrc2c000.us.nortel.com> From: "Peter Barany" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Right, but what I am trying to get at is the wording "obtain the current time of day" in 64-bit NTP format [NTP]. The phrase "current" implies some degree of accuracy with regard to the notion of a wallclock (absolute date and time) which is seconds relative to 0h UTC on Jan. 1,1900. So, if a client has no notion of a wallclock, couldn't it set the current time of day in 64-bit NTP format to zero? Or maybe it could simply use a "system-specific" clock such as "system uptime". I haven't done any simulations, but this would certainly increase the probability of a collision (at least for locally assigned global IDs) ... granted, there is probably still a very low probability of non-unique locally assigned global IDs being generated by the algorithm. Even if the client has a notion of a wallclock, the accuracy may be limited to far less than the resolution that the 64-bit NTP format is capable of representing ... so more zeros perhaps for the 32 bits to the right of the decimal? So if the algorithm is dependent upon "current time of day", I should think that we would want some statement included in the document to the effect that (1) access to a wallclock or not (2) running the Network Time Protocol not being required (3) other time sources, or none at all, may be used, etc. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brc@zurich.ibm.com] Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:01 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-01.txt > Peter Barany wrote: > > Hi, > > Two questions about this I-D: > > (1) In Section 3.2.3 "Sample Code for Pseudo-Random Global ID Algorithm", step (1) of the algorithm states: > "Obtain the current time of day in 64-bit NTP format (NTP)" > Question: Would it be possible to have the I-D specify that "how the current time of day is obtained is beyond the scope of > this document"? What is specified is the format, not the source. It's necessary to specify a format in order to specify an algorithm. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 09:14:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77GESCM001597; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77GEQDH001596; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77GELCM001586 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77GBiV7000432 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77GBc13001148 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:11:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 09:16:38 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h77GBatp021194; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGW20684; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id JAA25415; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:11:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16178.31286.837300.952142@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:11:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] In-Reply-To: <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter writes: > Michael, > > Sorry, but I think you are dead wrong, and you are moving us backward > and risking another year or two of wasted time. > > There is nothing new in this whole argument. As I pointed out > in the IAB architecture session in Vienna, these issues have been > around for 6 years at least. We know what we can do with today's > routing mechanisms, today's renumbering mechanisms, and today's > security mechanisms, and that leads *directly* to the requirements > in the Hain/Templin draft, and IMHO *directly* to the solution in > the Hinden/Haberman draft. Which leads *directly* to NAT's at "local" boundaries and /48's in the DFZ. And Fred's draft really shows how little we know about renumbering in the real world. > I think we are way past the point in history where it is fruitful to > make the sort of free-space wish-the-world-was-different analysis > you are advocating. Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward > changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. I'm having a very difficult time reconciling what you're saying here with your "Let's abolish" post. It's almost like you're saying we should do nothing at all. While nothing is often better than a bad something, in this case there's shipping product to fill the vacuum: NAT's. And they are well understood given their v4 deployment. Is that what you're ceding? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 09:31:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77GVbCM002037; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77GVbvH002036; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77GVSCM002029 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77GSoV7005562 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77GSjx8010116 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:28:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 09:33:43 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn1-444.cisco.com [10.21.97.188]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h77GST7F001935; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F327E28.9010309@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:28:24 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: Mark Smith , awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > .. but this might be. > > Do all (or most) of the ISPs changing the address also provide "premium" > static IP service? *Indeed* they do. What is interesting is that some of these "premium" services are fabrications, and they end up changing your so-called static IP address, anyway. Now there's frustration. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:09:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77H8uCM003144; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77H8u7g003143; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77H8pCM003123 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77H6EUu017439 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77H68x8006982 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:06:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:06:06 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: , "'IPng'" Subject: RE: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:05:16 -0700 Message-ID: <050801c35d06$13242a30$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew, Would you mind if we put this sequence in the requirements doc? Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Andrew White > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:55 PM > To: IPng > Subject: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) > > > A 'real life' deployment scenario. > > (a) I set up a local network. I currently have no ISP, but I > want my network to 'just work' out of the box. This network > consists of (initially) three routers, plus other infrastructure. > > (b) Sometime later I decide I want internet connectivity, so > I connect to an ISP. I add my ISP provided address to my > network in addition to the address/es that are there already. > For argument's sake, let's say the ISP doesn't have IPv6 > capability, so I use a 6to4 address. > > I do not want my internal addressing exposed outside the > network, so I filter my addresses. I do use the ISPs > addresses for external connectivity. > > (c+d) Meanwhile, my friend has done the same thing, except > that his ISP DOES offer IPv6, so he has a 'real' IPv6 address. > > (e) We connect our two local networks together (either by VPN > tunnel or a wireless link - doesn't matter). We can now send > local traffic to each other, and out either ISP. > > (f) Sometime later I disconnect my ISP, and we use just his ISP. > > (g) Sometime later I disconnect my network from his. > > (h) Sometime later I register with a new ISP, and get a new > IPv6 prefix. > > > Salient points: > > (1) At points (a), (c) and (g) we have networks that are > standalone and have no connection to an ISP or the global > internet. Further, the networks in > (a) and (c) have never had such a connection. The users > don't want to have to register to get an address that works. > > (2) In (b), the external (6to4) prefix is unstable. Many > ISPs allocate a temporary IPv4 internet address, and change > these frequently. > > (3) The set of global prefixes valid for the network changes > over time. > (a) None > (b) #1 (my 6to4) > (e) #1 and #2 (friend's v6) > (f) #2 > (g) None > (h) #3 (my new v6) > > (4) The only 'reliable' address that the hosts in my network > have is the local one they started with. > > This example is quite similar to Tony's research ship > example, with the possible caveat that a research ship might > be big and organised enough to register with an ISP to get an > address space plus connectivity they never intend to use. > > > Consequences: > > - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent > on anyone or anything connected to the global internet. > > - I need this local addressing unique enough that I can > safely join my network and my friend's network together and > allow them to swap prefixes. > > - I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address > scheme when talking to other hosts in my network. I want > hosts in my network to prefer one of the local schemes when > talking to hosts in my friend's network (since I don't want > the packets to leave 'our' network). I want hosts in my > network to prefer global addresses when talking externally. > > - I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, > preferably without having to set it up myself. > > - The ISPs probably want my local addresses filtered too. > > > Looks suspiciously like the filtered local address proposal, > doesn't it? > > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:12:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HC1CM003362; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77HC18V003361; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HBtCM003354 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77H9HUu019026 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77H9Bag006877 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h77H9MQs002889; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:09:23 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h77H9LDc002888; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:09:21 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Mika Liljeberg To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 07 Aug 2003 20:09:21 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 15:52, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > The observation is that even though the /8 space contains > > 1.1 trillion entries, there is a greater than 0.5 probability that there will > > be a clash after some 1.2 million draws. Normally this would not matter in the > > slightest, BUT the proposal also notes a potential to use these addresses > > in the context of end point identifiers, and in such a case there is > > a strict requirement for uniqueness, and my observation is that self-driven > > random choice is inadequate. Its not a paradox risk. Its just the underlying > > mathematics of random draw probabilities. > > The question is whether we think that risk is acceptable to an individual site. > The odds are much worse than would be acceptable in a cryptographic context, > but I don't think that is the right criterion. After all, whatever pseudo-random > value I use, you can copy and spoof anyway - that's a much greater risk than > random collision, even with millions of values in use. I've been working on implementing IPv6 for multi-access capable cell phones. The number game gets rather different if you start with the assumption of maybe 1 billion multi-access terminals deployed world-wide within the next few years. This quickly leads to the conclusion that anything not guaranteed to be unique must be treated as ambiguous. Unless uniqueness can be guaranteed, I don't see a way around the requirement of having a fully scoped IPv6 implementation in these terminals. Any host operating system that tries to enable users to take full advantage of wireless connectivity will be faced with the same dilemma. Ditto application developers. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:30:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HUfCM004202; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77HUdgH004201; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HUXCM004194 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77HRtUu026361 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77HRnx8021204 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:27:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:27:49 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:26:57 -0700 Message-ID: <050a01c35d09$1ab7ae40$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F320DCC.7060309@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77HUZCM004195 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Tony Hain wrote: > > >Leif Johansson wrote: > > > > > >>Of course we filter - > >> > >> > > > >What is your requirement to do that? I am serious, because those are > >the things the current draft is trying to document. If it is not > >covered by the current text, please send details. > > > > > There are obvious reasons for filtering as Bob Austin pointed > out last > night/this > morning (time-differentiated threads when you are wrapped-around is a > nightmare :-) ) > > Our reasons are the typical ones - mostly protecting from various > features in M$ > software. Not that all are well implemented, but in general those features are there to make it usable for the technically challenged consumer. > An important point is that there are few hosts which are > *only* local. > In my experience a local-only host (eg a database-server part of a > N-tier application) > are comparatively rare. Using locally scoped addresses for > those is just > more work > than putting the damned thing behind a firewall and filtering > everything. For you as a technically astute network admin, I would agree. For Joe-sixpack who just wants to keep the neighbor kid from messing with his light switches, or to keep the junk-fax marketing company from finding his printer, it is a different story. > > Currently the largest set of locally scoped hosts in my network are > phones. This is > in itself a major pain since I am unable to deploy sip-to-the edge to > these phones > and consequently I am in the process of getting globally scoped > addresses for these > hosts. Let's be crisp with the terms here. Since you say SIP doesn't work, I take it to mean those are ambiguous addresses. Even if you assigned globally unique addresses to them, would you be filtering that address range at the border? > > Right now I cannot find a single application where locally scoped > addresses give > me anything worth the effort. Those are my 5 cents - since > you asked for > details :-) Wait, you started off by saying that you really need to filter and keep some addresses local use, but then turn around and say you don't have any application for that. Which is it? We agree there is no need for you to have ambiguous addresses, but you appear to have a requirement for range limited addresses because you intentionally filter. Getting back to the question, is not trusting the hosts the requirement? Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:42:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HfwCM004471; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Hfw2L004470; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HfqCM004463 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77HdFUu000835 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Hd913002932 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ90006DFP98X@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ90075QFP84X@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:39:08 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F328EBC.9080200@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward >changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. > If apps could have dealt with those addresses the same way that they deal with regular global unicast address, this would be true. I'm affraid you're overlooking the impact on address selection here. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:48:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HmICM004666; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77HmIfk004665; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HmCCM004658 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77HjZUu003076 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77HjT4V014713 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:45:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Thread-Index: AcNc4Ttqz55kp022RhqGueKrGFm0cgAJXcbg From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77HmECM004659 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I think we'd be better off to simply forget > about address scope. At last, the real question. Well, this could be both the best thing we could do for IPv6 and the worst thing we could do for IPv6. It would be the best thing we could do for IPv6 because for numerous reasons it would simplify it and could allow for a faster deployment. It would be the worst thing we could do for IPv6 because that would be a tacit admission that we have failed to deliver on the promises for IPv6, and are settling for IPv6 being IPv4 with more bits. This could mean the death of IPv6 as enhancements in NATs are way cheaper than building a native v6 internet, and as long as the v4 internet is not on the verge of collapse (which is going to take some years at best) IPv6 would not take off. There are three things that could make IPv6 take off: 1) A killer app, which we still have to see. 2) The v4 address space _really_ getting full, which will eventually happen but we simply don't know when (as the time frame keeps being pushed) and certainly not tomorrow morning. 3) IPv6 being a lot more powerful than IPv4. > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) This was a sound question to ask. However, what you propose is giving up on item 3) above, and since there is nothing we can to rush the invention of a hypothetical killer app it actually jeopardizes the deployment of IPv6. When time for 2) is around the corner, IPv6 will be deployed no matter what, quick and dirty. Instead of settling for what we can deliver today, why don't we use the remaining time to try to make it better? Might not produce anything else, but at least we would have tried until the last minute. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:54:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HruCM004912; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Hru5b004911; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HrhCM004889 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77Hp2V7005041 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Houag021140 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:50:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h77Hoh901133; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:50:43 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308071750> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdlZlQfK; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:50:41 PDT Message-ID: <3F329311.9080200@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:57:37 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas CC: Fred.Templin@nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mike, Let me see if I can understand your concerns better. It seems to me that your main objection to the hain/templin draft is that you see it as implying a particular solution genre, that being a limited range addressing scheme to replace site-locals. If this is what you find objectionable, then may I assume you are of the opinion that site locals don't *need* to be replaced? If so, then it seems you would favor an IPv6 addressing architecture that contains only link-local and global unicast addresses, i.e., nothing in between? The hain/templin draft discusses requirements for sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, sites that are disconnected or intermittently-connected to providers, sites that merge with other sites, etc. In these cases, we require local application stability independent of any provider-assigned addressing. This requirement is not satisfied by link-locals for medium/large sites that comprise multiple links. Thus, all we have left are globals and the only way the "active" sites I described above could use these would be if the global prefixes could be obtained independent of any provider. Fine; so this just means that the sites would get their own prefixes and tell providers which prefixes to advertise instead of the other way around - right? This would all be fine were it not for the fact that it would lead to immediate global routing table explosion on the order of the number of sites that procure their own prefixes which could be quite large. I'm willing to suspend disbelief and say that sometime down the road we might have a solution for scalable global routing, but in what timeframe can we expect to see something like that deployed? 1yr? 5yrs? 10yrs? longer? Scalable global routing in a flat addressing space certainly seems like a utopian scenario if it can be achieved. But, if the deployment timeframe is looking like mid/long term, then we still need some sort of replacement for site-locals in the near term - right? Thanks - Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Michael Thomas wrote: >Fred.Templin@nokia.com writes: > > If you think the document has a scoping issue (no pun intended), > > then let's discuss that with a measured tone. > >Yes, I think it has scoping issues. A name change, >for starters. It should first lay out requirements >of network operators, etc in terms of what they >need to accomplish not how they can accomplish it. >Take as a very large for example, address >stability. That's not the requirement, per >se. What they want is for topology tweaking to not >adversely affect running applications. However >protocols such as TCP are incapable of sustaining >sessions across address changes which is typically >needed when you want to move topology around. >That's the reason I say that "stability" is a >solution, not a requirement. Keeping addresses the >same is *a* way of keeping applications from >breaking, but not the only one. Mobile IP >obviously comes to mind, and there are other ways >we could envision like Fred's attempt at >operational renumbering. > >Another example is your "well known prefix". I'd >think that the requirement is that certain >services and/or classes of devices need to be >isolated and/or invisible from the other parts of >the net. A well known prefix is a way to do that, >but it doesn't necessitate local scope and again >isn't the only way to wall stuff off. > >I really don't want to drag this into a meta >argument about the merits of various solutions, >but only to point out that the entire document is >structured in a way that the answer is foregone. >That's not what we need right now. We need >something that tries to be unbiased about the >ultimate compromises we're going to have to make >by saying what we want (requirements), what the >possible frameworks are for addressing the >requirements, and most especially what their >possible downsides are. We don't need boosterism >which tries to paper over the warts; all possible >solutions have problems, what we need is an honest >evaluation so that we can decide which path is the >least objectionable. > > Mike >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:54:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HsuCM004989; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77HsuwM004988; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HsmCM004960 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77HqBUu005768 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Hq5Xu009480 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:52:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16077; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:52:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308071752.NAA16077@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: |On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: [...] |> Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and |> reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. |> I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. | |Switch ISP or complain to them. I certainly wouldn't bear with that kind |of behaviour. It isn't clear that there will always be another ISP to switch to... |If that kind of ISP techniques are commonplace, we may need to do |something. But I'm not sure if that's the case. Experiences? I've brought up the notion of getting ISPs to change this business model before. Since the IETF can't mandate business models, any pressure would have to come from the technical side. |Note: consider how many of these techniques are used to prevent people |from keeping servers at their home systems (i.e., does the ISP consider |the changing address a bug or feature). Given that forcing the address changes often requires extra work on the part of the ISP (and you occasionally see requests from ISP folks for better ways to shorten the address cycle :() I would assume that most of this activity is designed either to discourage servers or simply to create additional artificial levels of service. |Also consider how the situation |would change (if any) with IPv6 provided by the ISP. Why should it change at all? Similarly, why should the number of addresses provided change? ISPs that currently seek to detect and prevent NAT activity are not doing so out of a sense of architectural purity. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 10:58:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HwlCM005325; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Hwk3P005324; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77HwfCM005314 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77Hu4Uu007218 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.noc.catch.no (nova.noc.catch.no [193.69.2.2]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Htwag022846 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [193.69.2.66] (callisto.noc.catch.no [193.69.2.66]) by nova.noc.catch.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308F4FF6A; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:55:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) From: Lars Erik Gullerud To: Pekka Savola Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1060278956.57310.866.camel@callisto.noc.catch.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 07 Aug 2003 19:55:57 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 10:17, Pekka Savola wrote: > > Real example: My ISP's DSL connection decides to drop the connection and > > reconnect (with a new IPv4 address, and thus 6to4 prefix) every 1-3 hours. > > I'd rather not subject my internal network to that if I don't have to. > > Switch ISP or complain to them. I certainly wouldn't bear with that kind > of behaviour. > > If that kind of ISP techniques are commonplace, we may need to do > something. But I'm not sure if that's the case. Experiences? This is a business decision taken by many ISPs - in fact, many ISPs who use dynamic addressing are starting to deliberately lower lease times for dynamic IPs (1-3 days seem to be common these days, 1-3 hours does seem on the short side), and implement mechanisms in their back-end systems to be sure the user will NOT be able to renew a lease for the same IP, but rather always be given a new one after this 1-3 day period expires. This way, you force any users who require permanent addressing (typically users who wish to run servers on their home connections) to buy your "premium" service rather than your $29.99/month-for-2Mbps low-end product. After all, you don't want your $29.99/mo users to actually USE 2Mbps, since then you will be selling your product with a loss (yes. really.), so you force the users most likely to actually use your bandwidth, to pay more for it. If you happen to be the incumbent or through other means have near-monopoly in the local market, this becomes even more attractive, as you don't need to worry that much about users switching providers rather than upgrading to your premium product. /leg -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 11:08:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77I8NCM005821; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77I8MGN005820; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77I8DCM005787 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77I5aUu011170 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77I5V4V029388 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.156]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:23 -0700 Received: from inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.157]) by mail5.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:43 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:05:32 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by INET-HUB-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:12 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:05:29 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E207956D@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] thread-index: AcNc4Sa18zDoFg0RS3ei0LYF641jegALEPUw From: "Brian Zill" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2003 18:05:12.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[7225C8B0:01C35D0E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77I8ECM005788 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As I thought I pointed out in a message last night, IPv4 and IPv6 address spaces are different scopes. For a reasonable mainstream deployment of IPv6 to occur, mainstream applications need to be able to deal with a mix of IPv4-only, IPv6-only, and dual protocol nodes. We can't just poke our heads in the sand and "legislate" scoping issues away. This working group should be focusing on finding solutions for problems, rather than killing off solutions for other problems in the misguided belief it is actually improving something. --Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > Sent: Thursday, 07 August, 2003 04:58 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: > Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no > sort of consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact > no consensus to be reached. > > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? > Is the DMZ inside or outside the site? etc.) > > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps > security boundaries, reachability boundaries, routing > boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > combination. > > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking > phenomena, such as intermittently connected networks, mobile > nodes, mobile networks, > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and > splits, etc. Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be > mapped into concentric circles such as a naive > link/local/global model. Scopes overlap and extend into one > another. The scope relationship between two hosts may even be > different for different protocols. > > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in > firewall rules, VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, > application level trickery, > configuration files, and brains. > > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to > express scope > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we > can forget about expecting middleware to do anything sensible > about scope. > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address > format is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a > single- valued function in the first place. > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > > Brian > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - Brian E Carpenter > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm > glad Yibo did. > > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve > > all-so-many problems. I would go further to allow nodes to > only send, > > receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be > wrong, but it > > seems to me the silver bullet for: > > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally > unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > > interfaces) > > - Simplifying address selection > > - Cleaning the routing tables > > - Simplifying router design and setup > > > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address > > architecture, and more important, the forseeable and unforseeable > > changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that > > identifies the source/destination address scopes. > > > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > > > Regards, > > > > -- Nir Arad > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Yibo Zhang" > > To: "Alain Durand" > > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might > be able to > > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local > > > addresses with a Range or Scope field like the multicast > addresses. > > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and > > > could even help the WG move the current situation forward more > > > smoothly and smartly. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 11:45:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77IjqCM008520; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77IjoZO008517; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77IjgCM008508 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77Ih5V7027095 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Ih0gP022279 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.jinmei.org (unknown [2001:4f8:3:bb:f47f:35ff:7b72:437b]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DA115263; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:42:57 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:42:53 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] In-Reply-To: <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/21.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:22 +0200, >>>>> Brian E Carpenter said: > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address format > is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a single- > valued function in the first place. (I'm just wondering) What exactly are you proposing, if you are anything? Are you saying we should deprecate the "scop" filed of IPv6 multicast addresses? JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 12:10:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JAFCM009987; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77JAFjU009986; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JA7CM009979 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77J7UUu005656 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77J7Ox8003038 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:07:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:07:20 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: Subject: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:06:26 -0700 Message-ID: <052a01c35d17$028fdf00$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F328EBC.9080200@sun.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77JA9CM009980 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > I'm affraid you're overlooking the impact on address selection here. Back to the flat earth concept ... Insisting on a single address per interface is the only way to avoid address selection. Until we have a globally routed PI space we know there will be multiple PA addresses to deal with, and in any case we know there will be routing filters. Therefore there will be address selection with all the potential for delays, so app developers simply have to get over it. Complaining about address selection will not make routing filters go away, because filtering is not something the IETF gets to decide. There is a requirement for local application stability no matter what is happening with the set of ISP interconnects. Unless applications have an affinity for a limited range prefix, they will be susceptible to disruption from external events. These external events would normally have absolutely nothing to do with the operation of the local app, but if the external interconnect is the only source of the address prefix these internal-only apps will fail. This failure mode from prefix instability is absolutely unnecessary and unacceptable. There is also a requirement to provide mechanisms that are simple for the non-technical consumer to understand and deploy. This is the only way to replace existing consumer friendly technologies like NAT. Telling the consumer 'replacing the NAT is easy, all you have to do is configure the filter for the port number ...' will ensure they continue using the automated tool. Building automated tools requires simple deterministic mechanisms that just work out of the box. This includes working in the case where there is no external Internet connection, but may be a connection to another out of the box network. This whole discussion is about multihoming, which points out the failure of the approach to move the multihoming discussion into a separate WG. Multi6 should be closed NOW, and that work should be folded back into the IPv6 WG so there can be a comprehensive approach to the issues (this is independent of the fact that the thread in an Ops WG is really about rearchitecting the Internet). As we stand now, all discussions about multihoming are assumed to be taking place over there, so we don't recognize the address selection discussion as being the same thing. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 12:22:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JM5CM010413; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77JM3nR010412; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JLtCM010405 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77JJIUu009436 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77JJDgP015996 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h77JJAK14317; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:19:10 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308071919> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdWp0tkJ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:19:09 PDT Message-ID: <3F32A7CE.3000804@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:26:06 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, "'IPng'" Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: <050801c35d06$13242a30$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Agree with Tony that Andrew's real-life deployment scenario sequence (a) thru (h) is of interest for the requirements doc. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Tony Hain wrote: >Andrew, > >Would you mind if we put this sequence in the requirements doc? > >Tony > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >>[mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Andrew White >>Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:55 PM >>To: IPng >>Subject: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) >> >> >>A 'real life' deployment scenario. >> >>(a) I set up a local network. I currently have no ISP, but I >>want my network to 'just work' out of the box. This network >>consists of (initially) three routers, plus other infrastructure. >> >>(b) Sometime later I decide I want internet connectivity, so >>I connect to an ISP. I add my ISP provided address to my >>network in addition to the address/es that are there already. >> For argument's sake, let's say the ISP doesn't have IPv6 >>capability, so I use a 6to4 address. >> >>I do not want my internal addressing exposed outside the >>network, so I filter my addresses. I do use the ISPs >>addresses for external connectivity. >> >>(c+d) Meanwhile, my friend has done the same thing, except >>that his ISP DOES offer IPv6, so he has a 'real' IPv6 address. >> >>(e) We connect our two local networks together (either by VPN >>tunnel or a wireless link - doesn't matter). We can now send >>local traffic to each other, and out either ISP. >> >>(f) Sometime later I disconnect my ISP, and we use just his ISP. >> >>(g) Sometime later I disconnect my network from his. >> >>(h) Sometime later I register with a new ISP, and get a new >>IPv6 prefix. >> >> >>Salient points: >> >>(1) At points (a), (c) and (g) we have networks that are >>standalone and have no connection to an ISP or the global >>internet. Further, the networks in >>(a) and (c) have never had such a connection. The users >>don't want to have to register to get an address that works. >> >>(2) In (b), the external (6to4) prefix is unstable. Many >>ISPs allocate a temporary IPv4 internet address, and change >>these frequently. >> >>(3) The set of global prefixes valid for the network changes >>over time. >> (a) None >> (b) #1 (my 6to4) >> (e) #1 and #2 (friend's v6) >> (f) #2 >> (g) None >> (h) #3 (my new v6) >> >>(4) The only 'reliable' address that the hosts in my network >>have is the local one they started with. >> >>This example is quite similar to Tony's research ship >>example, with the possible caveat that a research ship might >>be big and organised enough to register with an ISP to get an >>address space plus connectivity they never intend to use. >> >> >>Consequences: >> >>- I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent >>on anyone or anything connected to the global internet. >> >>- I need this local addressing unique enough that I can >>safely join my network and my friend's network together and >>allow them to swap prefixes. >> >>- I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address >>scheme when talking to other hosts in my network. I want >>hosts in my network to prefer one of the local schemes when >>talking to hosts in my friend's network (since I don't want >>the packets to leave 'our' network). I want hosts in my >>network to prefer global addresses when talking externally. >> >>- I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, >>preferably without having to set it up myself. >> >>- The ISPs probably want my local addresses filtered too. >> >> >>Looks suspiciously like the filtered local address proposal, >>doesn't it? >> >>-- >>Andrew White >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >>IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >>FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >>Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 12:39:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77Jd2CM011198; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Jd2o7011197; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JcvCM011187 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77JaJUu015301 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77JaEag028418 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:36:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-074-100.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.74.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h77JPUbt1222270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:25:23 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-ID: <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mika, that application seems to scream for "real", i.e. provider-assigned globally unique addresses -- I don't think this is where limited range ("local") addresses should be used? --On Thursday, August 07, 2003 20:09 +0300 Mika Liljeberg wrote: > I've been working on implementing IPv6 for multi-access capable cell > phones. The number game gets rather different if you start with the > assumption of maybe 1 billion multi-access terminals deployed world-wide > within the next few years. This quickly leads to the conclusion that > anything not guaranteed to be unique must be treated as ambiguous. > Unless uniqueness can be guaranteed, I don't see a way around the > requirement of having a fully scoped IPv6 implementation in these > terminals. Any host operating system that tries to enable users to take > full advantage of wireless connectivity will be faced with the same > dilemma. Ditto application developers. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 12:42:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JgFCM011410; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77JgFWA011407; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77Jg6CM011393 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77JdSV7019118 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77JdNXu019440 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:39:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.37]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27246; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030807153428.04125038@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:37:05 -0400 To: "Tony Hain" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: apps people? Cc: "'Leif Johansson'" , In-Reply-To: <050a01c35d09$1ab7ae40$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F320DCC.7060309@it.su.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 10:26 AM 8/7/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > > Right now I cannot find a single application where locally scoped > > addresses give > > me anything worth the effort. Those are my 5 cents - since > > you asked for > > details :-) > >Wait, you started off by saying that you really need to filter and keep some >addresses local use, but then turn around and say you don't have any >application for that. Which is it? We agree there is no need for you to have >ambiguous addresses, but you appear to have a requirement for range limited >addresses because you intentionally filter. Getting back to the question, is >not trusting the hosts the requirement? "Range limited addresses" could mean two things here: (1) Addresses that inherently have limited range, or (2) Addresses that effectively have a limited range, because the entire address is filtered at some boundary. There is also a third alternative... Port/Address filtering. It may be that a particular address has limited range on some ports, and is globally accessible on other. So the fact that someone uses filtering does not necessarily imply that they have a need for addresses that inherently have limited range. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 12:55:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JtZCM011940; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77JtYfN011939; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77JtLCM011926 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77JqiUu021158 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Jqc13021584 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 12:57:39 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h77JqZ7F007411; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGW49843; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id MAA25959; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16178.44546.425464.537537@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Fred Templin Cc: Michael Thomas , Fred.Templin@nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: <3F329311.9080200@iprg.nokia.com> References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F329311.9080200@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred Templin writes: > Mike, > > Let me see if I can understand your concerns better. It seems to me > that your main objection to the hain/templin draft is that you see it > as implying a particular solution genre, that being a limited range > addressing scheme to replace site-locals. If this is what you find > objectionable, then may I assume you are of the opinion that site > locals don't *need* to be replaced? If so, then it seems you would > favor an IPv6 addressing architecture that contains only link-local > and global unicast addresses, i.e., nothing in between? My inclination is that limited scope (excluding link local) is extremely problematic, but that's not really my larger point. The larger point is that there are a set of requirements that are driving people to use NAT's in ipv4 today, some of which are well addressed by ipv6, some of which are not as well addressed. And suspect that we all know that ipv6 will get NAT's if those bread and butter requirements cannot be met easily... NAT is the devil they know right now, for better or worse. However, limited scope addresses are but *one* way to deal with this set of requirements. What I think has been getting short-shrift here is that it seems to be a foregone conclusion amongst many people -- especially those who were not in favor of deprecation -- that the set of engineering tradeoffs amongst the options is well known and that local scoped addresses are the lesser of evils. I find that far from clear, and to my knowledge this working group has never formally evaluated those options or even enumerated them for that matter. I think it would be wise to take on that work, so that we can make an informed documented decision, and hopefully come to consensus with our eyes wide open. > The hain/templin draft discusses requirements for sites that frequently > change provider points of attachment, sites that are disconnected or > intermittently-connected to providers, sites that merge with other sites, > etc. I think your draft would make a fine starting point for the work I think needs done if it were morphed into something that didn't proceed from a solution and work backward as it seems to do now. > In these cases, we require local application stability independent of > any provider-assigned addressing. This requirement is not satisfied by > link-locals for medium/large sites that comprise multiple links. Thus, > all we have left are globals and the only way the "active" sites I described > above could use these would be if the global prefixes could be obtained > independent of any provider. Fine; so this just means that the sites would > get their own prefixes and tell providers which prefixes to advertise > instead of the other way around - right? > > This would all be fine were it not for the fact that it would lead to > immediate global routing table explosion on the order of the number > of sites that procure their own prefixes which could be quite large. > I'm willing to suspend disbelief and say that sometime down the > road we might have a solution for scalable global routing, but in > what timeframe can we expect to see something like that deployed? > 1yr? 5yrs? 10yrs? longer? > > Scalable global routing in a flat addressing space certainly seems > like a utopian scenario if it can be achieved. But, if the deployment > timeframe is looking like mid/long term, then we still need some > sort of replacement for site-locals in the near term - right? It's all of these questions and tradeoffs etc, which I think need to be *documented* and that we need to get rough consensus about the *problem* space itself. I don't believe after googlebytes of email on site locals we even have consensus on what problems must be solved in order to have a deployable IPv6 without NAT's being a necessary evil. Also: I think we are far away from actually determining that the principle alternatives (renumbering, PI) are dead letters, or that there aren't other more creative ways of solving for the problems/requirements. Brian thinks this is a waste of time, I respectfully disagree. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 13:25:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KPLCM013550; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77KPLh4013549; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KPDCM013541 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77KMaV7005714 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77KMT4V000802 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77KLt515865; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:21:55 +0200 Message-ID: <3F32B4E3.5030303@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:21:55 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Margaret Wasserman CC: Tony Hain , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F320DCC.7060309@it.su.se> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807153428.04125038@mail.windriver.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030807153428.04125038@mail.windriver.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > At 10:26 AM 8/7/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > >> > Right now I cannot find a single application where locally scoped >> > addresses give >> > me anything worth the effort. Those are my 5 cents - since >> > you asked for >> > details :-) >> >> Wait, you started off by saying that you really need to filter and >> keep some >> addresses local use, but then turn around and say you don't have any >> application for that. Which is it? We agree there is no need for you >> to have >> ambiguous addresses, but you appear to have a requirement for range >> limited >> addresses because you intentionally filter. Getting back to the >> question, is >> not trusting the hosts the requirement? > > > "Range limited addresses" could mean two things here: (1) Addresses > that inherently have limited range, or (2) Addresses that effectively > have a limited range, because the entire address is filtered at some > boundary. > > There is also a third alternative... Port/Address filtering. It may > be that a particular address has limited range on some ports, and is > globally accessible on other. > > So the fact that someone uses filtering does not necessarily imply > that they have a need for addresses that inherently have limited > range. > I was just about to draft a reply when I read this excellent one. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 13:33:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KXjCM014090; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77KXh0r014089; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KXbCM014076 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77KV0Uu005156 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77KUr13004707 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:30:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h77KUV515869; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:30:31 +0200 Message-ID: <3F32B6E7.9020208@it.su.se> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:30:31 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <050a01c35d09$1ab7ae40$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <050a01c35d09$1ab7ae40$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >For you as a technically astute network admin, I would agree. For >Joe-sixpack who just wants to keep the neighbor kid from messing with his >light switches, or to keep the junk-fax marketing company from finding his >printer, it is a different story. > > That is a matter of configuration mgmt (guis etc etc) not a question of how the filtering is done. >Let's be crisp with the terms here. Since you say SIP doesn't work, I take >it to mean those are ambiguous addresses. Even if you assigned globally >unique addresses to them, would you be filtering that address range at the >border? > > Nope! The rest of the mail was nicely covered by Margret W. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 13:44:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KiYCM014669; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77KiYus014668; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KiQCM014652 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77KfnV7012935 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Kfhx8005188 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:41:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:41:42 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Margaret Wasserman'" Cc: "'Leif Johansson'" , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:40:48 -0700 Message-ID: <053d01c35d24$2f5ac6f0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030807153428.04125038@mail.windriver.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77KiSCM014656 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > At 10:26 AM 8/7/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > > > Right now I cannot find a single application where locally scoped > > > addresses give me anything worth the effort. Those are my > 5 cents - > > > since you asked for > > > details :-) > > > >Wait, you started off by saying that you really need to > filter and keep > >some addresses local use, but then turn around and say you > don't have > >any application for that. Which is it? We agree there is no need for > >you to have ambiguous addresses, but you appear to have a > requirement > >for range limited addresses because you intentionally > filter. Getting > >back to the question, is not trusting the hosts the requirement? > > "Range limited addresses" could mean two things here: (1) > Addresses that inherently have limited range, or (2) > Addresses that effectively have a limited range, because the > entire address is filtered at some boundary. With that choice of terms, the only way to create (1) is to predefine boundaries for network managers. Since that is not something the IETF can do, the only useful meaning is (2). Is the distinction you are trying to describe is automated vs. manual filtering ??? When the goal is automated, a 'well-known' prefix simplifies the boundary device implemention. > > There is also a third alternative... Port/Address filtering. > It may be that a particular address has limited range on > some ports, and is globally accessible on other. See the thread: Multi-homing (was ......]]) for why port filtering is not viable in a consumer environment. It is much simpler to have each host take care of its own global/local accessability than it is to get it right in a remote edge box (witness regular configuration failures by trained IT professionals). The multi-app case is also easier to deal with if there is an obvious differentiation in the address for each app to bind to. Yes that means apps should be halfway intelligent, but it they choose not to be the worst that happens is delay. > > So the fact that someone uses filtering does not necessarily > imply that they have a need for addresses that inherently > have limited range. Assuming 'inherently' means 'well-known', yes it is true that manually configured filtering does not *require* a well-known prefix. It is also true that automation is required for consumers. Just because it is possible to do manual filtering doesn't invalidate the requirement for automated simplicity. We need to stop propagating the idea that requirements are invalid when - 'if the user was educated they would just do it my way, and they aren't educated so they shouldn't be doing it'. By definition consumers will not be technically educated, so approaches that work in a large managed network will simply fail. They need something as simple as; light switches by default are only accessible internal to the home, but if say the front porch light needs to be exposed they can explicitly configure it to be global. Technically they could (A) go to a border router and block the light-switch port, then figure out which address the front porch light had and allow it to pass, or (B) they could buy a box that filters a local range prefix, and a light switch that the ability to configure an additional prefix for global access. (A) requires them to know technical details whenever any new appliance/app comes out, and get an IPv6 address configured (without typo's) into a border device. (B) requires the light switch vendor to provide a configuration of limited-range by default, with a mechanism to add a global prefix when required. In other words, (A) puts the cost on the consumer, while (B) puts the cost on the app developer. Since the consumer will always go for the lowest cost, and the app developer has the technical capability to figure out automation, (B) will always win in an open market contest between the two. Unfortunately the IETF is overpopulated by app developers looking to move the cost out of their scope. While many are complaining that putting the cost in the app is too painful, the alternative is putting the cost on the end consumer. That is even more painful, and aligned with the point where the financial decisions are made. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 13:50:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KoWCM014989; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77KoWjx014988; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77KoRCM014980 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77KloUu010818 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from southstation.m5p.com (dsl-209-162-215-52.dsl.easystreet.com [209.162.215.52]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Klj4V016947 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m5p.com (parkstreet.m5p.com [10.100.0.1]) by southstation.m5p.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77KlhbW004704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from george@localhost) by m5p.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h77Klhvf012412; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200308072047.h77Klhvf012412@m5p.com> From: george+ipng@m5p.com To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:22 +0200 > From: Brian E Carpenter > Organization: IBM > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) > X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on > Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) Actually, this is the clearest summry of the current situation I've seen yet. I agree with many or your premises, but I believe you've reached an incorrect conclusion. > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no sort of > consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact no consensus to be > reached. Worse yet, we're even arguing about whether there is a consensus. > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? Is the DMZ > inside or outside the site? etc.) This is a feature, not a bug. At least it was agreed that site boundaries run through nodes and that any given link is either entirely inside or outside of any given site. > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps security boundaries, > reachability boundaries, routing boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > combination. Different people want scope for different reasons, and others are asserting that those reasons are not valid. I think we should all just agree to disagree on one another's reasons, because this part of the discussion has become so polarized. > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking phenomena, such > as intermittently connected networks, mobile nodes, mobile networks, > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and splits, etc. > Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be mapped into concentric > circles such as a naive link/local/global model. Scopes overlap and > extend into one another. The scope relationship between two hosts may > even be different for different protocols. I'll agree with you there up to the last sentence, but I also don't believe this is a bug. > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in firewall rules, > VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, application level trickery, > configuration files, and brains. Perhaps so, and perhaps it should be more explicit. > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to express scope > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we can forget > about expecting middleware to do anything sensible about scope. > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address format > is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a single- > valued function in the first place. Aha! This is, of course, the meat of the current controversy. And I agree with everyone who says that we shouldn't be forcing application writers to deal with the scope swamp. However: I do (naively, perhaps) believe that the problem could be pushed off of the shoulders of the application writer onto the shoulders of the library writer. I think the most logical place is in getaddrinfo, which should have a new hints flag to tell it to explicitly consider scope in ordering the items returned, so that the first addrinfo struct returned contains the address most likely to succeed. No, I don't have running code or an Internet Draft to prove the feasibility of this suggestion. Sorry. > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. Certainly the length and acrimoniousness of the discussion has inclined me toward this view at times, but I don't think we should give up on it completely yet. But we should probably proceed expeditiously with the deprecation of FEC0::/10 just so the mailing list can get back to real business. As long as the prefix remains reserved, we can come back and revive scoped addressing when we understand it better. As an interested amateur in this area, I thank you for your attention and now return you to the qualified participants in the discussion. -- George Mitchell > Brian > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Brian E Carpenter > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 14:27:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77LR5CM017055; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77LR5o7017054; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77LR1CM017035 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77LONV7029562 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77LOI4V010163 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:24:17 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNc1NpRn55RvVzOSlK1Sle2izhNqQAUjjZQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Tim Chown" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77LR1CM017037 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tim, >> Michel Py wrote: >> - If globally unique IPv6 address space is free, I am willing >> to give these $2.5k/yr to my ISP to announce my /48. > Tim Chown wrote: > Well, the ISP announces it, but how far does it get? It gets to you, where you filter it but it does get to you. You filter it and here's why: as a NREN, your "customers" don't come to you and say "you have 2 solutions: 1. you keep my business and here's extra cash to "forget" to filter prefixes; 2. someone else will be happy to have both my business and the extra cash. So you do have the luxury to do things the right way, which we thank you for. However, for for-profit ISPs that do not have the taxpayer's money to create a network, the choice is not as easy and will be choosing between a) do things right and don't capture the emerging IPv6 market and b) look the other way and get extra cash much needed to finance building the IPv6 infrastructure. There is a critical mass factor in this. Sure, if it's only one guy trying to get his prefix announced, it goes nowhere. Trouble is that announcing prefixes, although it does create problems in the long run, solves so many issues in the short term that every enterprise is going to do it. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 14:40:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77LeYCM017948; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77LeYYL017946; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77LeTCM017934 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77LbqV7005171 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Lbk13027630 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Thread-Index: AcNdHUKq6owB8eeKSO276ZxfdG0hjAADWDjQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Tony Hain" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77LeTCM017938 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, > Tony Hain wrote: > Insisting on a single address per interface is the only > way to avoid address selection. There are ample comments that a lot of enterprise managers will be favorable to that concept. > This whole discussion is about multihoming It has always been the sticking point. > which points out the failure of the approach to move the > multihoming discussion into a separate WG. Multi6 should > be closed NOW. As a matter of fact, by reading its charter it should have been rechartered or shutdown in September 2001, almost two years ago. But I hear that being two years behind objectives without any result is not a big deal in the IETF. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 15:04:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77M4oCM018787; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77M4mkt018786; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77M4gCM018779 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77M25V7015405 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77M1wx8026376 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:01:57 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:01:03 -0700 Message-ID: <055401c35d2f$6534efc0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77M4iCM018780 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no > sort of consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact > no consensus to be reached. > > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? > Is the DMZ inside or outside the site? etc.) We intentionally don't define the boundaries of an area in an IGP, so why do we need to do so here? Of all the arguments about scope, this one is the most bogus. > > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps > security boundaries, reachability boundaries, routing > boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > combination. That is because these are all local decisions, and the IETF can't dictate where any one of them might be. All we can do is provide the tools for the implementers of those boundaries to make the job easier. > > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking > phenomena, such as intermittently connected networks, mobile > nodes, mobile networks, > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and > splits, etc. Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be > mapped into concentric circles such as a naive > link/local/global model. Well, I have to disagree with this. > Scopes overlap and extend into one another. No, a link must be wholly contained within a site, and by definition anything that is less than global fits wholly within global. Yes multiple local regions can overlap, but that does not invalidate the overall model. > The scope relationship between two hosts may even be > different for different protocols. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. The file mount on likely wants to be restricted, while a 3party conf app on the same hosts would likely want to avoid being restricted. From an improving the overall Internet security perspective, I think the default case should be restricted, then provide a hook to get around that when appropriate. > > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in > firewall rules, VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, > application level trickery, > configuration files, and brains. The logical endpoint of your argument is to abolish brains ... > > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to > express scope > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we > can forget about expecting middleware to do anything sensible > about scope. I agree with the last sentence, but not the premise about defining an API. One way to describe a desired outcome would be, bind to a limited range address associated with ibm.com. > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address > format is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a > single- valued function in the first place. I assume you mean a way to identify > link but < global. While there might not be clear contiguous boundaries for each of the values in that space, they can all be described as a single value for 'something inbetween'. > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. We could choose to ignore the most commonly deployed segment of the existing Internet, but how useful would the results be. Tony > > Brian > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - Brian E Carpenter > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm > glad Yibo did. > > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve > > all-so-many problems. I would go further to allow nodes to > only send, > > receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be > wrong, but it > > seems to me the silver bullet for: > > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally > unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > > interfaces) > > - Simplifying address selection > > - Cleaning the routing tables > > - Simplifying router design and setup > > > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address > > architecture, and more important, the forseeable and unforseeable > > changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that > > identifies the source/destination address scopes. > > > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > > > Regards, > > > > -- Nir Arad > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Yibo Zhang" > > To: "Alain Durand" > > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might > be able to > > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local > > > addresses with a Range or Scope field like the multicast > addresses. > > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and > > > could even help the WG move the current situation forward more > > > smoothly and smartly. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 15:30:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77MUBCM020111; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77MUA6W020104; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77MU1CM020096 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77MRNV7025240 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77MRHx8012198 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:27:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 15:27:16 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-135.cisco.com [171.71.119.135]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h77MRELH017490; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F32D241.5020903@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:27:13 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Leif Johansson'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <053d01c35d24$2f5ac6f0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <053d01c35d24$2f5ac6f0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > Assuming 'inherently' means 'well-known', yes it is true that manually > configured filtering does not *require* a well-known prefix. It is also true > that automation is required for consumers. Just because it is possible to do > manual filtering doesn't invalidate the requirement for automated > simplicity. > > We need to stop propagating the idea that requirements are invalid when - > 'if the user was educated they would just do it my way, and they aren't > educated so they shouldn't be doing it'. By definition consumers will not be > technically educated, so approaches that work in a large managed network > will simply fail. They need something as simple as; light switches by > default are only accessible internal to the home, but if say the front > porch light needs to be exposed they can explicitly configure it to be > global. Once again, Tony, you are putting forth a security solution that is not secure. You cannot *ARCHITECT* security into a protocol based on an IP address. It is one thing for the customers to do that- they *may* know their environments. As we have seen with all sorts of spyware and viruses, they probably do not. It's thus even worse when you architect a standard based on what are false assumptions today and are likely to be false assumptions in the future. The solution to the problem you have raised is a standard enrollment protocol that is invoked between an element and a security management tool. That tool itself must be made user friendly. You're trying to solve the problem at the wrong level. Leave the IP address out of the argument. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 15:30:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77MUFCM020113; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77MUFYr020112; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77MU9CM020103 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77MRWUu020346 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77MRQag022102 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:27:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19ktE5-0004Pe-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:27:17 +0200 To: Tony Hain Subject: RE: apps people? Message-ID: <1060295237.3f32d245671c8@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:27:17 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <053d01c35d24$2f5ac6f0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <053d01c35d24$2f5ac6f0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Tony Hain : > > So the fact that someone uses filtering does not necessarily > > imply that they have a need for addresses that inherently > > have limited range. > Technically they could (A) go to a border router and block the > light-switch > port, then figure out which address the front porch light had and allow > it > to pass, or (B) they could buy a box that filters a local range prefix, > and > a light switch that the ability to configure an additional prefix for > global > access. (A) requires them to know technical details whenever any new > appliance/app comes out, and get an IPv6 address configured (without > typo's) > into a border device. (B) requires the light switch vendor to provide > a > configuration of limited-range by default, with a mechanism to add a > global > prefix when required. You are assuming that there is only one boundary in that consumers house. I can assure you that the teenage daugther or son in that house will have a completely different opinion on who's got the right to access what light control in her or his room. Particularly if there is a brother or sister in the next room. How will you solve that kind of access control, one site local from another within the same site? Buy one filtering box for each room? You should not assume that there is an entity small enough to be called "site". There are many sites within a site, each with different access requirements. Some unique, some shared, and it varies over time. For example, how will you solve the neighbours access to the controls while the family is on vacation. That is two sites that needs to be merged over the Internet for some duration of time. That neighbours master control point in an identical apartment must be able to turn on and off the exact same light switches in two different homes, both using site local addresses? But of course, the neighbour can't have access to all controls. The light in the safe is restricted. And the teenagers room... Your filtering devices, it seems, needs to be able to do quite a lot more than just differentiate between "site" local and global addresses. Maybe that is only possible if all light switches are able to have global access and unique addresses? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 15:57:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77MvCCM021507; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77MvCsZ021506; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77Mv6CM021493 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77MsSUu000229 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77MsMx8027894 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:54:21 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:53:27 -0700 Message-ID: <056301c35d36$b73e33b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F32D241.5020903@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77Mv8CM021500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > Tony Hain wrote: > > Assuming 'inherently' means 'well-known', yes it is true > that manually > > configured filtering does not *require* a well-known prefix. It is > > also true that automation is required for consumers. Just > because it > > is possible to do manual filtering doesn't invalidate the > requirement > > for automated simplicity. > > > > We need to stop propagating the idea that requirements are invalid > > when - 'if the user was educated they would just do it my way, and > > they aren't educated so they shouldn't be doing it'. By definition > > consumers will not be technically educated, so approaches > that work in > > a large managed network will simply fail. They need something as > > simple as; light switches by default are only accessible > internal to > > the home, but if say the front porch light needs to be > exposed they > > can explicitly configure it to be global. > > Once again, Tony, you are putting forth a security solution > that is not > secure. You cannot *ARCHITECT* security into a protocol > based on an IP > address. It is one thing for the customers to do that- they > *may* know > their environments. As we have seen with all sorts of spyware and > viruses, they probably do not. It's thus even worse when you > architect > a standard based on what are false assumptions today and are > likely to > be false assumptions in the future. > > The solution to the problem you have raised is a standard enrollment > protocol that is invoked between an element and a security management > tool. That tool itself must be made user friendly. You're trying to > solve the problem at the wrong level. Leave the IP address > out of the > argument. I don't see any content in this message. Like it or not, it is accepted security practice to limit access by filtering on bits in the IP header, and restricting what prefixes are announced in routing protocols. One set of bits in the header is just as valid to filter on as another, though addresses are easier to find and consistently exposed. In any case, I was not even claiming that any packet filtering was happening in that scenario. The presumption was that the prefix for local use was not being routed outside the home, while the global one was. In that case, packet filtering is not required as the origin can't get packets to the destination. Restricted routing is just one component in a comprehensive security plan. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 16:08:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77N8rCM021882; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77N8r5J021881; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77N8kCM021867 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77N68V7009498 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77N62x8004093 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:06:02 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:05:08 -0700 Message-ID: <056601c35d38$58be15b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <1060295237.3f32d245671c8@webmail.packetfront.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h77N8mCM021868 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > You are assuming that there is only one boundary in that > consumers house. No, I am assuming there is at least one boundry between the consumer and other networks. > I can > assure you that the teenage daugther or son in that house will have a > completely different opinion on who's got the right to access > what light > control in her or his room. Particularly if there is a > brother or sister in the > next room. > > How will you solve that kind of access control, one site > local from another > within the same site? Buy one filtering box for each room? Teenagers can go to work and buy their own boundary router if they choose. > > ... > Maybe that is only possible if all light switches are able to > have global > access and unique addresses? draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt creates unique addresses, even in the case where the teenagers have independent boundary routers. Global access is not generically necesssary or desired. To accomplish your neighbor scenario, it would make more sense to put PA addresses on the specific allowed devices than to have the whole network continually exposed to dos attacks. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 16:29:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NTYCM023004; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77NTXfj023003; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NTSCM022996 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77NQpV7016229 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rayen.face.ubiobio.cl (rayen.face.ubiobio.cl [146.83.194.131]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77NQf4V021577 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rayen.face.ubiobio.cl (Postfix, from userid 500) id 32C8A1BDB6; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:24:01 -0400 (CLT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rayen.face.ubiobio.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C61840F2 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:24:01 -0400 (CLT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:24:01 -0400 (CLT) From: Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez X-X-Sender: leo@rayen.face.ubiobio.cl To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RFC 2928 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all RFC 2928 is about the initial sub-tla assigments.It talks about APNIC, ARIN and RIP. which is the sub-tla for LACNIC? 2001:0800::/29 !? 0000 000X XXXX X 2001:0000::/29 - 2001:01F8::/29 IANA 0000 001X XXXX X 2001:0200::/29 - 2001:03F8::/29 APNIC 0000 010X XXXX X 2001:0400::/29 - 2001:05F8::/29 ARIN 0000 011X XXXX X 2001:0600::/29 - 2001:07F8::/29 RIPE NCC TIA +----------------------------------------------+ ,''`. | Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez |leo@ubiobio.cl | : :' : | Est. Ing Civil en Informatica|U. del Bio-Bio | `. `' +----------------------------------------------+ `- [leo-> ~ $] cd pub && more beer -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 16:39:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NdcCM023476; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77NdcPe023475; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NdQCM023433 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77NanUu015303 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77NaggP015571 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h77NaxpU004247; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:36:59 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h77NawdC004246; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:36:58 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Mika Liljeberg To: Hans Kruse Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 08 Aug 2003 02:36:58 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hans, The "application" is wireless connectivity to network XYZ, where the network manager of network XYZ controls the choise of the address space used. Multi-access basically stands for simultaneous access to multiple different networks, possibly under different administration. I.e., the terminal is effectively a host participating in multiple sites at the same time. Since we can't control the network managers, we simply have to assume that some of them will choose to use limited range addressing. MikaL On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 22:25, Hans Kruse wrote: > that application seems to scream for "real", i.e. provider-assigned > globally unique addresses -- I don't think this is where limited range > ("local") addresses should be used? > > --On Thursday, August 07, 2003 20:09 +0300 Mika Liljeberg > wrote: > > > I've been working on implementing IPv6 for multi-access capable cell > > phones. The number game gets rather different if you start with the > > assumption of maybe 1 billion multi-access terminals deployed world-wide > > within the next few years. This quickly leads to the conclusion that > > anything not guaranteed to be unique must be treated as ambiguous. > > Unless uniqueness can be guaranteed, I don't see a way around the > > requirement of having a fully scoped IPv6 implementation in these > > terminals. Any host operating system that tries to enable users to take > > full advantage of wireless connectivity will be faced with the same > > dilemma. Ditto application developers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 16:47:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NksCM024025; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h77Nkr0g024024; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h77NkeCM024003 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h77Ni2V7022946 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h77Nhu4V002253 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h77Nhrkr075491; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:43:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id h77Nhpah075490; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:43:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:43:51 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: Leif Johansson Cc: narten@us.ibm.com, mrw@windriver.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" Message-ID: <20030807234351.GI56337@sunet.se> References: <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="54ZiyWcDhi/7bWb8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F2F7BC4.9000102@it.su.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --54ZiyWcDhi/7bWb8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Appel due to management of the "site-local issue" Date: Tue, Aug 0= 5, 2003 at 11:41:24AM +0200 Quoting Leif Johansson (leifj@it.su.se): > I respectfully ask that the ADs to confirm the decision made in San=20 > Francisco, later confirmed on the > mailing list, and ask the wg chairs to please move on, working on real=20 > issues regarding ipv6 than beating > this dead horse once again. I fully support Leif and share his view in this. Let's move on.=20 --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE Hello... IRON CURTAIN? Send over a SAUSAGE PIZZA! World War III? No thanks! --54ZiyWcDhi/7bWb8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MuQ302/pMZDM1cURAqurAJ0UlpeNITPYEKHPCPUknWzflg5SfgCgp0tE Og9y5XmPsWgKry14QJUW/UM= =vIK2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --54ZiyWcDhi/7bWb8-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:19:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780JgCM025580; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780JgQ3025578; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780JTCM025549 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780GpV7007299 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780GjXu027000 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:16:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h780Gikr076653; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:16:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id h780GfPs076652; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:16:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:16:41 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: Tony Hain Cc: fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030808001641.GK56337@sunet.se> References: <1060295237.3f32d245671c8@webmail.packetfront.com> <056601c35d38$58be15b0$70144104@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DozTQjXnjm3C9Xhk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <056601c35d38$58be15b0$70144104@eagleswings> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --DozTQjXnjm3C9Xhk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 04:05:08PM -0700 Quoti= ng Tony Hain (alh-ietf@tndh.net): >=20 > draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt creates unique addresses, even= in > the case where the teenagers have independent boundary routers. Global > access is not generically necesssary or desired. To accomplish your neigh= bor > scenario, it would make more sense to put PA addresses on the specific > allowed devices than to have the whole network continually exposed to dos > attacks. By forcing the end user to NAT and hide things behind a "broadband router"= =20 or similar device, you now give the attacker one convenient weak spot=20 which, once attacked and brought to its knees, will deny every node in the= =20 house network service, especially since this box probably also serves as switch, 802.11 access point, print server and whatnot.. Probably not what you wanted. --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE over in west Philadelphia a puppy is vomiting ... --DozTQjXnjm3C9Xhk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/Muvp02/pMZDM1cURAuQsAKCIVhx3GPQyIUqpBy9KcJeYm9DEFwCfZq9f tdK6I+pdeP/+QtMWcMNjfLU= =CGhG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DozTQjXnjm3C9Xhk-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:24:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780OOCM025831; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780OONM025830; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780OHCM025821 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780LeV7009222 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780LXx8014513 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:21:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:21:33 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez'" , Subject: RE: RFC 2928 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:20:39 -0700 Message-ID: <058101c35d42$e5656cc0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Check http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/mem-services/registration/ipv6/ipv6allocs.html > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Leonardo > Saavedra Henriquez > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 4:24 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RFC 2928 > > > > > Hi all > > RFC 2928 is about the initial sub-tla assigments.It talks > about APNIC, ARIN and RIP. which is the sub-tla for LACNIC? > 2001:0800::/29 !? > > 0000 000X XXXX X 2001:0000::/29 - 2001:01F8::/29 IANA > 0000 001X XXXX X 2001:0200::/29 - 2001:03F8::/29 APNIC > 0000 010X XXXX X 2001:0400::/29 - 2001:05F8::/29 ARIN > 0000 011X XXXX X 2001:0600::/29 - 2001:07F8::/29 RIPE NCC > > TIA > > +----------------------------------------------+ ,''`. > | Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez |leo@ubiobio.cl | : :' : > | Est. Ing Civil en Informatica|U. del Bio-Bio | `. `' > +----------------------------------------------+ `- > [leo-> ~ $] cd pub && more beer > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:31:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780VcCM026330; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780VbBD026329; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780VTCM026322 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780SpV7011905 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780Sjx8017945 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:28:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:28:44 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mans Nilsson'" Cc: , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:27:50 -0700 Message-ID: <058a01c35d43$e69a26c0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030808001641.GK56337@sunet.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h780VVCM026323 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mans Nilsson wrote: > By forcing the end user to NAT and hide things behind a > "broadband router" > or similar device, you now give the attacker one convenient weak spot > which, once attacked and brought to its knees, will deny > every node in the > house network service, especially since this box probably > also serves as switch, 802.11 access point, print server and > whatnot.. Probably not what you wanted. Who said I was forcing the end user behind a NAT, though I agree it creates a single point of failure. There appears to be a lot of IPv4-centric single-address-per-interface thinking going on in this thread. Just because some nodes in a network are using addresses that are not globally routed does not force other nodes to forego use of globally routed addresses. That is the IPv4 model of the world. Multi-addressed IPv6 nodes can simultaneously use limited range and globally routed addresses for different destinations. Light switches, file mounts, printers, etc. should not by default be globally exposed. If someone chooses to change the configuration, fine, but forcing the 'managed enterprise network' model on the consumer will not work. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:37:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780bBCM026741; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780bBh5026739; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780b4CM026718 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780YRUu008007 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780YLx8020703 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJ900IM1YX8I3@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJ900909YX7WD@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:34:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:32:44 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) To: Tony Hain Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F32EFAC.60507@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <052a01c35d17$028fdf00$70144104@eagleswings> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >This whole discussion is about multihoming, which points out the failure of >the approach to move the multihoming discussion into a separate WG. Multi6 >should be closed NOW, and that work should be folded back into the IPv6 WG >so there can be a comprehensive approach to the issues (this is independent >of the fact that the thread in an Ops WG is really about rearchitecting the >Internet). As we stand now, all discussions about multihoming are assumed to >be taking place over there, so we don't recognize the address selection >discussion as being the same thing. > I agree that the issue discussed here is somehow related to multi-homing. However, there is a fundamental difference. You are proposing to encode local reachability information into the address format and use address selection to prefer those addresses in order to enforce local traffic to stay local. The problem is that addresses are leaking and the fact that a node is configured with a "local" address and it has a "local" address in its list of destination addresses does not mean that both nodes are in the same local "realm", i.e. there is a logical path to connect them. So what we have here is a case where you are multihomed with one side that is permanently unreachable from a large portion of the universe. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:38:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780cbCM026805; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780cZLp026804; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780cTCM026797 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780ZqUu008426 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780ZlgP018891 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 17:35:47 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-135.cisco.com [171.71.119.135]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h780Zjtp009648; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F32F061.1000306@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:35:45 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <056301c35d36$b73e33b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <056301c35d36$b73e33b0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > I don't see any content in this message. I'll deal with this elsewhere. > Like it or not, it is accepted > security practice to limit access by filtering on bits in the IP header, and > restricting what prefixes are announced in routing protocols. But that filtering is done EXPLICITLY based on a PARTICULAR device in a PARTICULAR environment. Neither the device nor the firewall can make that decision, and that is what you are claiming. You are OVERLOADING security operations on the IP address, a construct that is poorly suited for the task. > In any case, I was not even claiming that any packet filtering was happening in that scenario. > The presumption was that the prefix for local use was not being routed > outside the home, while the global one was. In that case, packet filtering > is not required as the origin can't get packets to the destination. And that is where you are relying on the routing protocol for security, and that too is a bad architectural assumption. It's bad for all the reasons I wrote in the message you claim had "no content". > Restricted routing is just one component in a comprehensive security plan. Since it doesn't really do the job, and since we are talking about a home system as a use scenario, less is more. Provide a single mechanism that works correctly such that the individual can manipulate it in one place if he/she has to. I don't claim that filtering shouldn't happen in many or most cases, and it might even happen in THIS case. But let's not architect for such a case. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:44:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780iHCM026944; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780iHfk026943; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780iCCM026936 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780fYV7015879 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780fS13019730 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D96B8077; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:41:25 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez'" , Subject: RE: RFC 2928 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:41:26 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <005801c35d45$cd5e9400$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Leonardo Saavedra Henriquez wrote: > RFC 2928 is about the initial sub-tla assigments.It talks about > APNIC, ARIN and RIP. > which is the sub-tla for LACNIC? > 2001:0800::/29 !? > > 0000 000X XXXX X 2001:0000::/29 - 2001:01F8::/29 IANA > 0000 001X XXXX X 2001:0200::/29 - 2001:03F8::/29 APNIC > 0000 010X XXXX X 2001:0400::/29 - 2001:05F8::/29 ARIN > 0000 011X XXXX X 2001:0600::/29 - 2001:07F8::/29 RIPE NCC See http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-tla-assignments for a much longer list ;) Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBPzLxtimqKFIzPnwjEQIo9wCgsmc7X7lafpMnyYwfg+YMiHLo+ogAoK/C x1rkzpfQdI3qBqmfZxbaP4zo =gZ+8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:45:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780joCM026959; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780jnaw026958; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780jdCM026951 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780h1Uu010294 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780gtx8024556 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h780gpkr076902; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:42:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id h780goWB076901; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:42:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:42:50 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: Tony Hain Cc: fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030808004250.GM56337@sunet.se> References: <20030808001641.GK56337@sunet.se> <058a01c35d43$e69a26c0$70144104@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eWmFpGZayiNrn4FL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <058a01c35d43$e69a26c0$70144104@eagleswings> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --eWmFpGZayiNrn4FL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 05:27:50PM -0700 Quoti= ng Tony Hain (alh-ietf@tndh.net): > Who said I was forcing the end user behind a NAT, though I agree it creat= es > a single point of failure. There appears to be a lot of IPv4-centric > single-address-per-interface thinking going on in this thread. Just becau= se > some nodes in a network are using addresses that are not globally routed > does not force other nodes to forego use of globally routed addresses. Th= at > is the IPv4 model of the world. Multi-addressed IPv6 nodes can > simultaneously use limited range and globally routed addresses for differ= ent > destinations.=20 I fail to see why you need scoped addresses for this. When I want my printe= r=20 to stay off the net, I remove the default route. Done. All the benefits of site-local, and none of the scoping. Yes, it is reachable by UDP -- correct. But it can neither reply, nor should it be connected to a network if bad things happen when you give it UDP packets that it can't reply to. The solutions for this, though, are grossly off-topic -- more=20 appropriate work for those apps people who have left ipng believing=20 that the SL ghost is gone for good and all is well. =20 The only reason to have non-unique, unroutable addresses is if there was=20 a shortage. Heck, people even claim that there is v4 space in abundance.=20 How can then, pray tell, v6 benefit from it?=20 --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE I just remembered something about a TOAD! --eWmFpGZayiNrn4FL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MvIK02/pMZDM1cURAjkjAJ9EF5gyhY/E6WK2GfkSJFek2n3yzwCdFaQk jevOLYVFuxWt8VtlumSlJ6I= =UWS1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eWmFpGZayiNrn4FL-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 17:54:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780sHCM027383; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h780sHBp027382; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h780sBCM027373 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780pXV7019753 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mielke.cc (CPE00608c86a77d-CM014310003648.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.102.127.86]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780pR4V008096 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dave.private.mielke.cc (dave.private.mielke.cc [192.168.0.2]) by mielke.cc (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h780pJ005632; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:51:20 -0400 Received: from dave.private.mielke.cc (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dave.private.mielke.cc (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h780pHfd020380; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:51:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (michael@localhost) by dave.private.mielke.cc (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h780pFkw020377; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:51:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:51:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Mielke To: Tony Hain cc: fredrik@packetfront.com, Subject: RE: apps people? In-Reply-To: <056601c35d38$58be15b0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Tony Hain wrote: > fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > > You are assuming that there is only one boundary in that > > consumers house. > No, I am assuming there is at least one boundry between the consumer and > other networks. > > I can > > assure you that the teenage daugther or son in that house will have a > > completely different opinion on who's got the right to access > > what light > > control in her or his room. Particularly if there is a > > brother or sister in the > > next room. > > How will you solve that kind of access control, one site > > local from another > > within the same site? Buy one filtering box for each room? > Teenagers can go to work and buy their own boundary router if they choose. > > ... > > Maybe that is only possible if all light switches are able to > > have global > > access and unique addresses? > draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt creates unique addresses, even in > the case where the teenagers have independent boundary routers. Global > access is not generically necesssary or desired. To accomplish your neighbor > scenario, it would make more sense to put PA addresses on the specific > allowed devices than to have the whole network continually exposed to dos > attacks. > Tony Is this telling us, that IPv6 is being introduced in more than just the internet. like a replacement to phone numbers, for example. -- Michael Mielke http://www.mielke.cc/~michael/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 18:01:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78113CM027647; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h781135i027646; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7810uCM027630 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h780wIV7022035 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780wDag004148 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:58:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h780wB0v009391; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:58:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr04.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h780vl01009506; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:57:48 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aidanw.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.63]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h780vue7014950; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:57:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F32F594.6010706@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:57:56 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: Andrew White , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Andrew White wrote: > > >>It's whether an application can assume that global addresses are never >>filtered, and the answer is that it can't. Ergo, global addresses are >>also scoped addresses. >> >> > >There is a difference of a couple of degrees of magnitude here. Absolute >yes/no are irrelevant (because there is always some filtering); it's more >important to figure out the probability which results in the highest >percentage of getting it right at the first try, a good percentage of >doing well at the second if really needed etc. > > Imagine a parallel universe where *all* addresses are "global". We can assume that there will be plenty of "global" addresses that are filtered to reduce their range of communication for the same reasons as people filter their networks today. So, the *probability* of a random "global" address being usable for communication will drop as a consequence of not partitioning the "local" ones in their own little pig pen. Worse still, there will be *no possibility* of receiving a hint that any particular global address an application uses may be useless for communication outside a local network. Why would you choose to have no information? - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 18:03:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7813SCM027773; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7813S0r027772; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7813HCM027735 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7810eV7022780 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7810Yx8003266 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:00:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:00:34 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Alain Durand'" Cc: Subject: RE: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:59:39 -0700 Message-ID: <05aa01c35d48$588908b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F32EFAC.60507@sun.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7813JCM027736 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > So what we have here is a case where you are multihomed with > one side that is permanently unreachable from a large portion > of the universe. The only difference between this and the case for > 90% of the deployed end systems today is the multihoming. Using PA addresses with filtering doesn't change anything about the permanently unreachable state, it just makes it impossible for anything to figure out which prefix is more likely to be filtered. Applications don't have to try to figure it out, because not doing so has exactly the same effect as filtered PA's. Those that choose to take the hint can establish an affinity for the one more likely to that app. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 18:20:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781KsCM029341; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h781Ks8g029340; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781KkCM029295 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h781I9V7000518 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h781I3x8011494 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:18:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:18:02 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:17:07 -0700 Message-ID: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F32F061.1000306@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h781KmCM029305 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > > Like it or not, it is accepted > > security practice to limit access by filtering on bits in the IP > > header, and restricting what prefixes are announced in routing > > protocols. > > But that filtering is done EXPLICITLY based on a PARTICULAR > device in a > PARTICULAR environment. Neither the device nor the firewall can make > that decision, and that is what you are claiming. You are > OVERLOADING > security operations on the IP address, a construct that is > poorly suited > for the task. > No, I am using a well established construct of limiting access by restricting where prefixes get routed, and limiting access by filtering on header bit patterns. That is not overloading on the IP address any more than current practice does. > > In any case, I was not even claiming that any packet filtering was > > happening in that scenario. The presumption was that the prefix for > > local use was not being routed outside the home, while the > global one > > was. In that case, packet filtering is not required as the origin > > can't get packets to the destination. > > And that is where you are relying on the routing protocol for > security, > and that too is a bad architectural assumption. It's bad for all the > reasons I wrote in the message you claim had "no content". Then why do network managers every have limitations on routing announcements, both sent and heard? It is because they want to limit access. > > > Restricted routing is just one component in a comprehensive > security > > plan. > > Since it doesn't really do the job, What job? Provide perfect security? If that is the case, what does the job today? If such a product exists, why is route filtering so prevalent? > and since we are talking about a > home system as a use scenario, less is more. Provide a > single mechanism > that works correctly such that the individual can manipulate > it in one > place if he/she has to. There is nothing about providing a local use space that precludes a single point of control. Architecturally requiring a single point of control however precludes distribution and increasing scale. The network is not the simple Internet of 1990, and extrapolating that growth forward says we must not be architecting in bottlenecks. Particularly when they are simply based on favored operational practice of a few large entities. The consumer doesn't want to know about the technology that makes the Wal-mart appliance work, they just want to bring it home and turn it on. Tony > > I don't claim that filtering shouldn't happen in many or most > cases, and > it might even happen in THIS case. But let's not architect > for such a case. > > Eliot > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 18:39:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781d4CM000782; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h781d4Fq000781; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781cwCM000773 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h781aLV7006517 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h781aFgP016611 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:36:15 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdTARvOvpHiZUuTJq2AUmOEG+2agAAPs4g From: "Michel Py" To: "Mans Nilsson" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h781cxCM000775 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Mans Nilsson wrote: > I fail to see why you need scoped addresses for this. > When I want my printer to stay off the net, I remove > the default route. Done. This does not work because Joe Six-Pack does not know how to remove the default route, so the printer will indeed acquire a default gateway by DHCP or RA. Not good enough. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 18:40:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781eYCM000848; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h781eWbO000847; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h781eQCM000837 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h781bmUu028012 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h781bgag014216 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:37:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:37:42 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Thread-Index: AcNdSsAmzZNjFHE9SWKdTvS5R6JFkgAAtDhA From: "Michel Py" To: "Alain Durand" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h781eSCM000841 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Alain Durand wrote: > So what we have here is a case where you are multihomed > with one side that is permanently unreachable from a large > portion of the universe. This is a feature, not a bug. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 19:02:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7822sCM002639; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7822s0u002638; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7822nCM002628 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7820CUu003860 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78205x8000197 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:00:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 19:00:05 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-119-135.cisco.com [171.71.119.135]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h782037F009244; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F330422.1090805@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:00:02 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > Eliot Lear wrote: > >>>Like it or not, it is accepted >>>security practice to limit access by filtering on bits in the IP >>>header, and restricting what prefixes are announced in routing >>>protocols. >> >>But that filtering is done EXPLICITLY based on a PARTICULAR >>device in a >>PARTICULAR environment. Neither the device nor the firewall can make >>that decision, and that is what you are claiming. You are >>OVERLOADING >>security operations on the IP address, a construct that is >>poorly suited >>for the task. >> > > > No, I am using a well established construct of limiting access by > restricting where prefixes get routed, and limiting access by filtering on > header bit patterns. That is not overloading on the IP address any more than > current practice does. But we need no more than we have. You are building an operating assumption around a bunch of bits in the address field that isn't safe. People who use this today understand its limitations. If you look at most of the home "routers", they have more of a notion of "inside" and "outside" interfaces. Even the HOME router doesn't build an assumption along the lines you are discussing. It doesn't look at the bits in the address field, other than to NAT permitted stuff through. Now let's look at the enterprise case. Unless you claim you are going to do away with the OTHER access-lists, then this is just another bit pattern for an ACL and there is no architectural need, and there is some peril as Michel has described. > > > >>>In any case, I was not even claiming that any packet filtering was >>>happening in that scenario. The presumption was that the prefix for >>>local use was not being routed outside the home, while the >> >>global one >> >>>was. In that case, packet filtering is not required as the origin >>>can't get packets to the destination. >> >>And that is where you are relying on the routing protocol for >>security, >>and that too is a bad architectural assumption. It's bad for all the >>reasons I wrote in the message you claim had "no content". > > > Then why do network managers every have limitations on routing > announcements, both sent and heard? It is because they want to limit access. Mostly to protect the routing system itself. > > > >>>Restricted routing is just one component in a comprehensive >> >>security >> >>>plan. >> >>Since it doesn't really do the job, > > > What job? Provide perfect security? If that is the case, what does the job > today? If such a product exists, why is route filtering so prevalent? For all sorts of reasons: 1. Protection of the routing system itself is the big one. a. unwanted loops b. unwanted accidental transit c. malicious tampering with the routing system 2. And indeed people do not want advertised that which they want kept off the Internet. Why invite the attack? But it is as much as not having DNS information for an unreachable host behind a firewall. >> and since we are talking about a >>home system as a use scenario, less is more. Provide a >>single mechanism >>that works correctly such that the individual can manipulate >>it in one >>place if he/she has to. > > > There is nothing about providing a local use space that precludes a single > point of control. Architecturally requiring a single point of control > however precludes distribution and increasing scale. I am not mandating any such thing. I am saying that you are architecting toward a solution that is best solved elsewhere. AND what we have works without such constructs - with two notable exceptions: We do need to handle the disconnected and intermittenly connected network carefully and in a reasonable way. Here I don't think we have good answers -- YET. I do not wish to sweep this one under the rug. And then there is the case of renumbering and managing networks through renumbers. That's where Fred's stuff comes in. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 19:32:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h782WKCM004373; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h782WKm6004372; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h782W7CM004331 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h782TUUu011835 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h782T913016210 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:29:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h782T3O1025537 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:29:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h782SxMP018473 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:29:01 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h782Swe7019907; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:28:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F330AEA.1210E47F@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:28:58 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'IPng'" Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: <050801c35d06$13242a30$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > > Andrew, > > Would you mind if we put this sequence in the requirements doc? Not at all - my pleasure. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 19:41:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h782foCM004879; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h782fodN004877; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h782ffCM004866 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h782d3V7023853 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h782cwgP014507 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2916314038; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29098-13; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6DA1401A; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:38:56 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, lear@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030807223856.03a7a5a0.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F32F061.1000306@cisco.com> <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > No, I am using a well established construct of limiting access by > restricting where prefixes get routed, and limiting access by > filtering on header bit patterns. That is not overloading on the IP > address any more than current practice does. lots of stupid things are current practice. NATs, for example. trying to justify something that we know is harmful by citing current practice isn't very convincing. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 20:04:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7834lCM006203; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7834j6x006202; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7834dCM006195 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78322V7029510 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7831ux8027551 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:01:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19kxVn-0006Jq-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:01:51 +0200 To: Tony Hain Subject: RE: apps people? Message-ID: <1060311711.3f33129f460eb@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:01:51 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Tony Hain : > No, I am using a well established construct of limiting access by > restricting where prefixes get routed, and limiting access by filtering > on > header bit patterns. That is not overloading on the IP address any more > than > current practice does. Limiting access based on restricting where prefixes gets routed does not require a standards based scoped range of addresses. This can be done with any addresses. Therefore something called "site locals" are not required to continue to use prefix route filtering. > Then why do network managers every have limitations on routing > announcements, both sent and heard? It is because they want to limit > access. Do not confuse limit access (1) = prevent hacking, DoS attacks with limit access (2) = not provide a service. Filtering on routes sent is commonplace to ensure that the route receiver gets a proper picture of the world and does not try to use the network to access things they shouldn't (transit for example). Filtering on routes received is commonplace to ensure that the next guy doesn't swamp your routingtable becasue somebody down the line screwed things up. Don't trust anybody elses routing. Neither of these requires anything called "site locals". Both describe the primary use of route filtering. If somebody thereby also gains a bit of extra security because the next guy doesn't know about a certain prefix, fine. Site locals would add nothing here. (1) is done with firewalls, packet filters, encrypted communications, secured operating systems and other such measures way before route-filtering. > > > Restricted routing is just one component in a comprehensive > > security > > > plan. > > > > Since it doesn't really do the job, > > What job? Provide perfect security? If that is the case, what does the > job > today? If such a product exists, why is route filtering so prevalent? Among who? You continue to talk about consumers and how things would be easier for them with site-locals. No consumers are using route filtering today. No consumers will need to use route filtering. ISPs use route filtering. People with corporate networks use route filtering. But they do it for the other reasones (see above), not for security. Thus "site locals" add nothing new. > The network is not the simple Internet of 1990, and extrapolating that > growth forward says we must not be architecting in bottlenecks. > Particularly > when they are simply based on favored operational practice of a few > large > entities. The consumer doesn't want to know about the technology that > makes > the Wal-mart appliance work, they just want to bring it home and turn it > on. Site-locals will not make consumer products any cheaper, easier or better. On the contrary, site locals will make them more complex, less interoperable and as a consequence more expensive to the consumer because he has to buy more of them to make things work! Just look at NAT. How many different ways have been invented to go around NAT, to make applications work through NAT and to take advantage of things that are readily accepted through NAT and firewalls ("Lets run Protocol A over HTTP because it gets through everywhere...") just to avoid having to do a REAL solution? That is application developer creativity working for you on network layer problems. And you want more of that?? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 20:32:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h783WMCM008049; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h783WMT9008048; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h783WECM008038 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h783TbV7005726 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h783TV13029141 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:29:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdVrEjtDVcPdvQQcytFKKz9isVuAAAi77Q From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" , "Tony Hain" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h783WFCM008039 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, > Eliot Lear wrote: > If you look at most of the home "routers", they have more > of a notion of "inside" and "outside" interfaces. > Even the HOME router doesn't build an assumption along > the lines you are discussing. It doesn't look at the > bits in the address field, other than to NAT permitted > stuff through. I regret to say that you are wrong here as what you say is mostly the way things appear to be but not the way they really work. In at least one example that I have seen recently myself, the router does indeed look at the address only. A DSL/NAT box, whatever/29 on the DSL interface, 192.168.1.1/24 on the Ethernet interface, NAT enabled, no RFC1483 bridging. I found a host plugged a host with a public IP from the /29 on the Ethernet interface, works fine. I agree it's crappy code, but it does happen. A Cisco example? here's one: route-map ROUTE-MAP-CYMRUBOGONS permit 10 description Filter the bogons from the Cymru.com route-server match community STD-COMM-LIST-CYMRU set ip next-hop 10.x.y.z ! ip route 10.x.y.z 255.255.255.255 Null0 name BLACKHOLE Question: why can't I just do: route-map ROUTE-MAP-CYMRUBOGONS permit 10 description Filter the bogons from the Cymru.com route-server match community STD-COMM-LIST-CYMRU set interface null0 Educated guess: because for a gazillion of reasons including existing code and the way hardware can assist in processing the traffic, it works by IP address and not by a more abstract concept like an interface. And frankly, as a CCIE I prefer having to deal with the way it is today because at least I understand what the router does, rather than a "magic" script that would in my back transform the "set interface null0" into "set ip next-hop 10.x.y.z" + "ip route 10.x.y.z 255.255.255.255 Null0 name BLACKHOLE" without telling me. > Now let's look at the enterprise case. Unless you claim > you are going to do away with the OTHER access-lists, > then this is just another bit pattern for an ACL and > there is no architectural need, and there is some peril > as Michel has described. I'm not quite sure how to parse this. The peril is because there is no architectural limitation (these addresses have public scope; if they had restricted scope the peril would be less). > We do need to handle the disconnected and intermittently > connected network carefully and in a reasonable way. Here > I don't think we have good answers -- YET. I do not wish > to sweep this one under the rug. Agree here. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 21:13:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784D4CM009803; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h784D2pl009798; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784CuCM009783 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h784AJV7015086 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h784ADag019020 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:10:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h784ACfF024174 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:10:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr01.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr01) with ESMTP id h784A1Gr026280 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:10:02 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h784A8e7024612 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:10:08 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F3322A0.2D92742A@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:10:08 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> <3F31F94C.20507@it.su.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > > Great. Come back with an ID and running code. This increasingly > hypothetical thread is fast approaching amateur night in layer 7. 3 hours programming and 200 lines of Java later I have a simplistic but working library that attempts multiple (in fact all applicable) source and destination pairs in parallel and returns the one that first works. Adding necessary filtering to implement some form of address selection is doable busy-work. It would also be quite plausible to delay acceptance long enough to check if a certain pair worked before accepting another. This discussion is increasingly degenerating into people who say "I refuse to believe it would ever work or why someone would want to do it" and those who can point to working deployment scenarios. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 21:21:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784LrCM010397; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h784LrX5010396; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784LjCM010388 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h784J7V7017207 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h784J2gP026097 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2003 21:24:08 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-316.cisco.com [10.21.81.60]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h784J07F004405; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F3324B3.8000605@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:18:59 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michel Py CC: Tony Hain , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, I was referring to the smaller devices a'la Linksys, DNET, etc. With ciscos you pretty much run sed on the header if you want to- not that I think it's a good idea. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 21:26:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784PtCM010489; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h784Psls010487; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784PiCM010454 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h784N6Uu007397 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h784N113010674 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:23:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2003 06:22:33 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h784KkXP002416; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:20:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-301.cisco.com ([144.254.75.88]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:22:59 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:22:58 +0200 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:22:57 +0200 Subject: Re: apps people? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'Mans Nilsson'" , , To: "Tony Hain" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <058a01c35d43$e69a26c0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2003 04:22:58.0407 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF4C5770:01C35D64] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On fredag, aug 8, 2003, at 02:27 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > Light switches, file mounts, printers, etc. should not by default be > globally exposed. If someone chooses to change the configuration, > fine, but > forcing the 'managed enterprise network' model on the consumer will not > work. Whether an address is globally exposed or not is a management issue. It has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the addressing architecture. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 21:27:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784RpCM010622; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h784RpK5010621; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h784RfCM010602 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h784OwUu007820 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h784Oqag022478 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:24:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2003 06:24:25 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h784McZw002517; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:22:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-302.cisco.com ([144.254.75.89]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:24:51 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:24:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:24:49 +0200 Subject: Re: apps people? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Tony Hain , fredrik@packetfront.com, To: Michael Mielke From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <3F7F7C7E-C958-11D7-958D-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2003 04:24:51.0108 (UTC) FILETIME=[02792640:01C35D65] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On fredag, aug 8, 2003, at 02:51 Europe/Stockholm, Michael Mielke wrote: > Is this telling us, that IPv6 is being introduced in more than just the > internet. like a replacement to phone numbers, for example. No, see RFC 2916. Telephone numbers as in E.164 is acting at a completely different layer in the stack. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 22:11:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h785BaCM012690; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h785BaSK012689; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h785BUCM012673 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7858qUu018926 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7858lag003698 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:08:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-53.cisco.com [10.21.80.53]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7858g7F025581; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F333059.8000301@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:08:41 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> <3F31F94C.20507@it.su.se> <3F3322A0.2D92742A@motorola.com> In-Reply-To: <3F3322A0.2D92742A@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew White wrote: > This discussion is increasingly degenerating into people who say "I refuse > to believe it would ever work or why someone would want to do it" and those > who can point to working deployment scenarios. The question isn't whether you *can* do it but whether it's a good and scalable approach. There was code *before* this debate started. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 23:11:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h786BACM015514; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h786BAMb015513; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h786B5CM015506 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7868SUu001595 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7868M13005746 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78681503616; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:08:01 +0200 Message-ID: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:08:00 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F31E84C.B2998DA@motorola.com> <3F31F94C.20507@it.su.se> <3F3322A0.2D92742A@motorola.com> In-Reply-To: <3F3322A0.2D92742A@motorola.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew White wrote: >Leif Johansson wrote: > > >>Great. Come back with an ID and running code. This increasingly >>hypothetical thread is fast approaching amateur night in layer 7. >> >> > >3 hours programming and 200 lines of Java later I have a simplistic but >working library that attempts multiple (in fact all applicable) source and >destination pairs in parallel and returns the one that first works. > > Listen Andrew, I am sort of impressed by your tennacity (if that is the word I am looking for) but writing a loop through a table does not quite constitute "running code". You actually need to use this in an application and demonstrate its utility on the Internet. My guess is that your application will be uselessly slow when confronted with multiple choices to try if several of them are unreachable. I look forward (sort of :-)) to hearing about your further explorations. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 7 23:32:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h786WZCM016270; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h786WXAR016269; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h786WSCM016262 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h786TnUu005171 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dupy.nosense.org (48.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.48]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h786Tgx8026453 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:29:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (48.cust11.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.154.48]) by dupy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8E92F61E; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:59:41 +0930 (CST) Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope From: Mark Smith To: Nir Arad Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <01c001c35cfa$615844e0$5801040a@lt38> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com><3F2ECC35.5090901 @sun.com><3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com><024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote ><023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38><3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> <20030807092025.55deab42.moore@cs.utk.edu> <01c001c35cfa$615844e0$5801040a@lt38> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 08 Aug 2003 15:59:40 +0930 Message-Id: <1060324181.4157.18.camel@Dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Nir, I suggest you visit this page, which provides reasonable access to the ipng mailing list achives. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ipng&r=1&w=2 Probably over the last two years, certainly over the last year, if there is a dramatic jump in email traffic eg around 200 one month to 600 or more the next month, it is likely to be a discussion about site-local, GUSL and every other possible variant within the "scoped addressing theme". October / November 2002 was one such occasion. Most of your suggestions are likely to have come up. Regards, Mark. On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 01:11, Nir Arad wrote: > As things stand today, you are right - "Scope" becomes only another factor in the routing decision of a packet. > > However, if we make it more explicit, and allow communication only among addresses at the same scope, I don't see it as > such a pain to hosts and apps. Address selection is not to complex (not as simple as "everyone have a global address", > but far simpler than what we have now). > > Could you be more specific? > > -- Nir Arad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Moore" > To: "Brian E Carpenter" > Cc: ; > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > > > > binding scope to an address works about as well as binding QoS to an > > address. sure you can do it as a hack, and it's fairly easy for the > > network to implement, but it's a royal pain for hosts and apps. > > > > Keith > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 02:29:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h789TYCM020409; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h789TYnF020408; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h789TTCM020401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h789QpUu011469 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com (saturn.bt.com [193.113.57.20]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h789QjgP012459 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cbibipnt08.hc.bt.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) id ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:26:50 +0100 Message-ID: From: matthew.ford@bt.com To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:26:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2654.89) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Below... > -----Original Message----- > From: george+ipng@m5p.com [mailto:george+ipng@m5p.com] > Sent: 07 August 2003 21:48 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope > > > > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:22 +0200 > > From: Brian E Carpenter > > Organization: IBM > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) > > X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: > Moving forward on > > Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > > > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > Actually, this is the clearest summry of the current situation I've > seen yet. ... Which makes it doubly annoying that I didn't receive the original mail from Brian. And this is only one of many examples I could give of replies to mail on this list for which I have never received the original mail. I suspect this may be a consequence of the volume of mail to the list in recent days. That doesn't make it excusable though. Given Sun's recent admission that they aren't competent to run an IPv6-enabled webserver, should they be managing the mailserver for this list? Mat -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 03:19:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78AIwCM020737; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78AIw57020736; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78AIsCM020729 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78AGEV7004759 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78AG9Xu016282 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:16:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20676 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:16:08 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04485 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:16:07 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h78AG7R32119 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:16:07 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:16:07 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030808101607.GG27089@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 06:36:15PM -0700, Michel Py wrote: > > Mans Nilsson wrote: > > I fail to see why you need scoped addresses for this. > > When I want my printer to stay off the net, I remove > > the default route. Done. > > This does not work because Joe Six-Pack does not know how to remove the > default route, so the printer will indeed acquire a default gateway by > DHCP or RA. Not good enough. Some vendors have thought a bit about Joe Sixpack and security. I like the method Alcatel use on my combined 802.11/DSL home router. If I want to add a new wireless device for home access, rather than having anything able to associate, or a manual/web configuration of MAC address, I only need press an "allow association" button that will for 20-30 seconds let any device attach, from which point that MAC address is remembered. Of course not ideal security, but a nice solution for the home user. Similar approaches could be adopted for the types of scenarios here. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 03:54:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78As7CM020903; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78As6bq020902; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78As2CM020895 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78ApNUu027129 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78ApHgP023749 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78ApGR8027984 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:51:16 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78ApFFg260580 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:51:16 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA41448 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:51:14 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3380A1.ADEE1C08@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:51:13 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> <024b01c35c06$efd838f0$faaab684@cote> <023601c35c32$12162ff0$5801040a@lt38> <3F323EDE.39E615C7@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk JINMEI Tatuya / $B?@L@C#:H(B wrote: > > >>>>> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:58:22 +0200, > >>>>> Brian E Carpenter said: > > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address format > > is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a single- > > valued function in the first place. > > (I'm just wondering) What exactly are you proposing, if you are > anything? Are you saying we should deprecate the "scop" filed of IPv6 > multicast addresses? > > JINMEI, Tatuya > Communication Platform Lab. > Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. > jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp No. I should have made it clear that I was talking strictly about unicast. Scope for multicast is an entirely different matter, and I assume it is needed. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 03:58:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78Aw3CM020945; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Aw3PF020944; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78AvwCM020937 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78AtIUu027649 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78AtCgP025376 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78AtB9e010974 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:55:11 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78At6Fg285370 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:55:06 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA32412 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:55:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3F338187.5581811A@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:55:03 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, I don't recall that we ever promised to support scoping of unicast addresses. RFC 1752 refers to the scope field in multicast addresses, which I certainly don't propose to abolish. I don't see why the lack of explicit scope for IPv6 unicast is an inhibitor. Satisfying the Hain/Templin requirements is necessary, but that is orthogonal. Brian Michel Py wrote: > > Brian, > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget > > about address scope. > > At last, the real question. > > Well, this could be both the best thing we could do for IPv6 and the > worst thing we could do for IPv6. > > It would be the best thing we could do for IPv6 because for numerous > reasons it would simplify it and could allow for a faster deployment. > > It would be the worst thing we could do for IPv6 because that would be a > tacit admission that we have failed to deliver on the promises for IPv6, > and are settling for IPv6 being IPv4 with more bits. > > This could mean the death of IPv6 as enhancements in NATs are way > cheaper than building a native v6 internet, and as long as the v4 > internet is not on the verge of collapse (which is going to take some > years at best) IPv6 would not take off. > > There are three things that could make IPv6 take off: > 1) A killer app, which we still have to see. > > 2) The v4 address space _really_ getting full, which will eventually > happen but we simply don't know when (as the time frame keeps being > pushed) and certainly not tomorrow morning. > > 3) IPv6 being a lot more powerful than IPv4. > > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > This was a sound question to ask. However, what you propose is giving up > on item 3) above, and since there is nothing we can to rush the > invention of a hypothetical killer app it actually jeopardizes the > deployment of IPv6. > > When time for 2) is around the corner, IPv6 will be deployed no matter > what, quick and dirty. Instead of settling for what we can deliver > today, why don't we use the remaining time to try to make it better? > Might not produce anything else, but at least we would have tried until > the last minute. > > Michel. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 03:59:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78AxbCM020987; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Axbo0020986; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78AxXCM020979 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78AusUu027910 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78Aul4V023645 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78AujNG201390 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:45 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78AujYo282524 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:45 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA54294 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3381EA.2F7A0AB2@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:56:42 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E207956D@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian Z, I don't see what that has to do with our failed attempts to design explicit scope *within* IPv6 unicast addresses. Brian C Brian Zill wrote: > > As I thought I pointed out in a message last night, IPv4 and IPv6 > address spaces are different scopes. For a reasonable mainstream > deployment of IPv6 to occur, mainstream applications need to be able to > deal with a mix of IPv4-only, IPv6-only, and dual protocol nodes. > > We can't just poke our heads in the sand and "legislate" scoping issues > away. This working group should be focusing on finding solutions for > problems, rather than killing off solutions for other problems in the > misguided belief it is actually improving something. > > --Brian > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > > Sent: Thursday, 07 August, 2003 04:58 > > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: > > Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] > > > > > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > > > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no > > sort of consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact > > no consensus to be reached. > > > > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? > > Is the DMZ inside or outside the site? etc.) > > > > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps > > security boundaries, reachability boundaries, routing > > boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > > combination. > > > > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking > > phenomena, such as intermittently connected networks, mobile > > nodes, mobile networks, > > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and > > splits, etc. Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be > > mapped into concentric circles such as a naive > > link/local/global model. Scopes overlap and extend into one > > another. The scope relationship between two hosts may even be > > different for different protocols. > > > > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in > > firewall rules, VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, > > application level trickery, > > configuration files, and brains. > > > > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to > > express scope > > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we > > can forget about expecting middleware to do anything sensible > > about scope. > > > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address > > format is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a > > single- valued function in the first place. > > > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > > > > Brian > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > - - Brian E Carpenter > > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > > > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm > > glad Yibo did. > > > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve > > > all-so-many problems. I would go further to allow nodes to > > only send, > > > receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > > > > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be > > wrong, but it > > > seems to me the silver bullet for: > > > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally > > unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > > > interfaces) > > > - Simplifying address selection > > > - Cleaning the routing tables > > > - Simplifying router design and setup > > > > > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address > > > architecture, and more important, the forseeable and unforseeable > > > changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that > > > identifies the source/destination address scopes. > > > > > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > -- Nir Arad > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Yibo Zhang" > > > To: "Alain Durand" > > > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might > > be able to > > > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local > > > > addresses with a Range or Scope field like the multicast > > addresses. > > > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and > > > > could even help the WG move the current situation forward more > > > > smoothly and smartly. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 04:20:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BKUCM022518; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78BKU3A022517; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BKNCM022499 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78BHhV7017097 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78BHbXu014291 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 05:17:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78BHaNG206150 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:17:36 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78BHZYo270364 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:17:35 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (gsine08.us.sine.ibm.com [9.14.6.48]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA32370 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:17:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3386C9.73700C35@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:17:29 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: <055401c35d2f$6534efc0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk inline... Tony Hain wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Well, here's my attempt at becoming flame bait :-) > > > > I'm close to concluding that address scope is simply a bogus concept. > > > > 1. We've been arguing about it for years and have reached no > > sort of consensus. That suggests to me that there is in fact > > no consensus to be reached. > > > > 2. Apart from link-local, scope boundaries are ill-defined. > > (What's a site? Is the whole of a corporate network a site? > > Is the DMZ inside or outside the site? etc.) > > We intentionally don't define the boundaries of an area in an IGP, so why do > we need to do so here? Of all the arguments about scope, this one is the > most bogus. I'm not sure which way you intend this to be read. What I mean to say is that I really cannot see a usefully defined generic category between link-local and global; and I don't see the use of what you suggest later, i.e. such a category with a fuzzy meaning. I don't know how to use it, since I don't know what it contains or excludes. Point 3 is more explicit about that: > > > > > 3. We aren't clear whether we want scope because it maps > > security boundaries, reachability boundaries, routing > > boundaries, QOS boundaries, administrative > > boundaries, funding boundaries, some other kinds of boundaries, or a > > combination. > > That is because these are all local decisions, and the IETF can't dictate > where any one of them might be. Exactly. And these various boundaries will overlap in different ways in different user networks - so the category "less than global scope" doesn't provide any useful information. > All we can do is provide the tools for the > implementers of those boundaries to make the job easier. Indeed. What I have come to believe is that a single-valued scope function is not a useful tool for that. > > > > > 4. There are some well known and important scope-breaking > > phenomena, such as intermittently connected networks, mobile > > nodes, mobile networks, > > inter-domain VPNs, hosted networks, network merges and > > splits, etc. Specifically, this means that scope *cannot* be > > mapped into concentric circles such as a naive > > link/local/global model. > > Well, I have to disagree with this. > > > Scopes overlap and extend into one another. > > No, a link must be wholly contained within a site, and by definition > anything that is less than global fits wholly within global. Yes multiple > local regions can overlap, but that does not invalidate the overall model. I think it does, because it makes "less than global" ambiguous. Does it mean "my intranet", "my intranet plus a VPN to company X", "a VPN to company X but not my intranet", "my VPNs to companies X and Y plus a secure subset of my intranet", or a combinatorial number of similar choices? > > > The scope relationship between two hosts may even be > > different for different protocols. > > There is nothing inherently wrong with that. The file mount on likely wants > to be restricted, while a 3party conf app on the same hosts would likely > want to avoid being restricted. From an improving the overall Internet > security perspective, I think the default case should be restricted, then > provide a hook to get around that when appropriate. Yes. I don't see how a single-valued scope function helps with that. > > > > > 5. In practice, scope is not explicit; it's implicit in > > firewall rules, VPN setup, static routes, DNS entries, > > application level trickery, > > configuration files, and brains. > > The logical endpoint of your argument is to abolish brains ... Might help sometimes :-) > > > > > 6. Middleware (a.k.a. Apps) has no idea how to handle scope anyway. > > In fact, given the above, I don't see how a useful API to > > express scope > > concepts could be defined. If we can't define such an API, we > > can forget about expecting middleware to do anything sensible > > about scope. > > I agree with the last sentence, but not the premise about defining an API. > One way to describe a desired outcome would be, bind to a limited range > address associated with ibm.com. Indeed. Good example. It turns out to be a list of about 139 IPv4 prefixes, manually maintained. I got that from my VPN setup. That's exactly the problem. > > > > > So I don't believe that a scope field as part of the address > > format is a meaningful idea, because I don't think scope is a > > single- valued function in the first place. > > I assume you mean a way to identify > link but < global. While there might > not be clear contiguous boundaries for each of the values in that space, > they can all be described as a single value for 'something inbetween'. They can, but I've tried to argue above that this is useless. > > > > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > > We could choose to ignore the most commonly deployed segment of the existing > Internet, but how useful would the results be. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that trying to solve it with a simple concentric-circles model of scope is impossible. Brian > > Tony > > > > > Brian > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > - - Brian E Carpenter > > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > > > > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I was thinking to bring this suggestion myself, and I'm > > glad Yibo did. > > > Having a Scope field in unicast addresses seems (to me) to solve > > > all-so-many problems. I would go further to allow nodes to > > only send, > > > receive and forward packets from- and to- the same scope. > > > > > > Being still on the IPv6 learning curve I might well be > > wrong, but it > > > seems to me the silver bullet for: > > > - Killing NAT ("site local" interfaces, whether globally > > unique or not, may never communicate with global unicast > > > interfaces) > > > - Simplifying address selection > > > - Cleaning the routing tables > > > - Simplifying router design and setup > > > > > > Coming from a router design point-of-view, the current address > > > architecture, and more important, the forseeable and unforseeable > > > changes within it, make it difficult to desgin a mechanism that > > > identifies the source/destination address scopes. > > > > > > OK - now I'm ready to take the flames... > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > -- Nir Arad > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Yibo Zhang" > > > To: "Alain Durand" > > > Cc: "Bob Hinden" ; > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > > > Alain Durand wrote: > > > > > > > > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > > > > > > > > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > > > > addresses with different ranges. > > > > > > > > That's definitely a good idea because that way we might > > be able to > > > > replace all current local addresses with a single type of local > > > > addresses with a Range or Scope field like the multicast > > addresses. > > > > It would looks more consistent, more flexible, more scalable, and > > > > could even help the WG move the current situation forward more > > > > smoothly and smartly. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 04:21:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BLrCM022595; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78BLrHm022592; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BLlCM022566 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78BJ8V7017369 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78BJ1x8014912 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 05:19:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78BIuZ03579; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:18:57 +0300 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:18:56 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Aidan Williams cc: Andrew White , Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) In-Reply-To: <3F32F594.6010706@motorola.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Aidan Williams wrote: > >There is a difference of a couple of degrees of magnitude here. Absolute > >yes/no are irrelevant (because there is always some filtering); it's more > >important to figure out the probability which results in the highest > >percentage of getting it right at the first try, a good percentage of > >doing well at the second if really needed etc. > > > > > Imagine a parallel universe where *all* addresses are "global". We can > assume that there will be plenty of "global" addresses that are filtered > to reduce their range of communication for the same reasons as people > filter their networks today. Ok.. > So, the *probability* of a random "global" address being usable for > communication will drop as a consequence of not partitioning the "local" > ones in their own little pig pen. Maybe so, but then the communication will fail *anyway*, because all addresses are blocked. It's more of a question "why are you trying to reach a node which has chosen not communicate with you?" and "why did the person publish the address of the node which he wishes doesn't communicate with others in the first place?" > Worse still, there will be *no possibility* of receiving a hint that any > particular global address an application uses may be useless for > communication outside a local network. > > Why would you choose to have no information? An ICMP unreachable message could be that hint. You seem to assume that it's a problem if you try to communicate with a random node and it refuses to talk to you. It's not, it's a feature (if the non-communication is intended). You should not be getting that address from anywhere (e.g. DNS) without reference to an application it should work with. If you do, that's the problem with the system administrator -- but the app can fail in any case so that's not a problem. On the other hand, if you just wanted to manually look up some address, and try to use it but fail, there's no problem as you should have expected the communication to fail (or at least, didn't have a high hope of success, and trying was your best bet anyway). -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 04:28:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BSRCM022799; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78BSPLI022798; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BSGCM022791 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78BPZUu003618 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78BPTag006450 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 05:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78BOO203632; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:24:24 +0300 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:24:23 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tony Hain cc: "'Mans Nilsson'" , , Subject: RE: apps people? In-Reply-To: <058a01c35d43$e69a26c0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Tony Hain wrote: [...] > Light switches, file mounts, printers, etc. should not by default be > globally exposed. If someone chooses to change the configuration, fine, but > forcing the 'managed enterprise network' model on the consumer will not > work. So, what exactly is wrong with the Bellovin/Zill Router Advertisement option proposals which make it very easy for normally local-only appliances to restrict the nodes they allow access from? -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 04:33:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BXnCM022922; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78BXnRn022921; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78BXhCM022914 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78BV4V7019488 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78BUv4V008968 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19l5Rr-0001jY-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:30:19 +0200 To: Tim Chown Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <1060342219.3f3389cb3339f@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:30:19 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <20030808101607.GG27089@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030808101607.GG27089@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Tim Chown : > > This does not work because Joe Six-Pack does not know how to remove > the > > default route, so the printer will indeed acquire a default gateway > by > > DHCP or RA. Not good enough. > > Some vendors have thought a bit about Joe Sixpack and security. > > I like the method Alcatel use on my combined 802.11/DSL home router. If > I > want to add a new wireless device for home access, rather than having > anything > able to associate, or a manual/web configuration of MAC address, I only > need > press an "allow association" button that will for 20-30 seconds let > any > device attach, from which point that MAC address is remembered. Of > course > not ideal security, but a nice solution for the home user. > > Similar approaches could be adopted for the types of scenarios here. Has there been any discussion or work for a protocol to achieve something like that? To allow a device - be it software or hardware - to register itself with say the gateway or some other control mechanism allowing the end-user to determine for instance what kind of access the device should have (by affecting configuration such as filters in other devices in the vicinity)? Your button but through an easily accessible GUI instead? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 06:48:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78DmFCM029208; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78DmFHg029207; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78Dm9CM029198 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78DjTV7018958 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78DjNXu023193 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:45:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78DjG7o085298; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:16 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78Dj5Yo227018; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:05 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA41952; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3F338E21.F187D070@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:48:49 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alain Durand CC: Tony Hain , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [wasRe: Moving forward ....]]) References: <052a01c35d17$028fdf00$70144104@eagleswings> <3F32EFAC.60507@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I share Tony's frustration with long hiatus in multi6, but it seems to be unstuck at the moment. I also agree that it's hard to separate the topics, but I see no practical advantage in repatriating the multihoming issue into this WG, which already has a diverse agenda. Brian Alain Durand wrote: > > Tony Hain wrote: > > >This whole discussion is about multihoming, which points out the failure of > >the approach to move the multihoming discussion into a separate WG. Multi6 > >should be closed NOW, and that work should be folded back into the IPv6 WG > >so there can be a comprehensive approach to the issues (this is independent > >of the fact that the thread in an Ops WG is really about rearchitecting the > >Internet). As we stand now, all discussions about multihoming are assumed to > >be taking place over there, so we don't recognize the address selection > >discussion as being the same thing. > > > I agree that the issue discussed here is somehow related to multi-homing. > However, there is a fundamental difference. > > You are proposing to encode local reachability information into > the address format and use address selection to prefer those addresses > in order to enforce local traffic to stay local. > > The problem is that addresses are leaking and the fact that a node > is configured with a "local" address and it has a "local" address in its > list > of destination addresses does not mean that both nodes are in the > same local "realm", i.e. there is a logical path to connect them. > > So what we have here is a case where you are multihomed with > one side that is permanently unreachable from a large portion > of the universe. > > - Alain. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 06:48:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78DmBCM029206; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Dm9cP029200; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78Dm2CM029191 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78DjNUu002782 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78DjH4V015016 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h78Dj97o229032; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:09 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h78Dj8Yo275028; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:08 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA41954; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:45:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:52:54 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mika Liljeberg CC: Hans Kruse , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk If they do that, they will have ignored the health warnings we will put on the RFC. Brian Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > Hans, > > The "application" is wireless connectivity to network XYZ, where the > network manager of network XYZ controls the choise of the address space > used. Multi-access basically stands for simultaneous access to multiple > different networks, possibly under different administration. I.e., the > terminal is effectively a host participating in multiple sites at the > same time. Since we can't control the network managers, we simply have > to assume that some of them will choose to use limited range addressing. > > MikaL > > On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 22:25, Hans Kruse wrote: > > that application seems to scream for "real", i.e. provider-assigned > > globally unique addresses -- I don't think this is where limited range > > ("local") addresses should be used? > > > > --On Thursday, August 07, 2003 20:09 +0300 Mika Liljeberg > > wrote: > > > > > I've been working on implementing IPv6 for multi-access capable cell > > > phones. The number game gets rather different if you start with the > > > assumption of maybe 1 billion multi-access terminals deployed world-wide > > > within the next few years. This quickly leads to the conclusion that > > > anything not guaranteed to be unique must be treated as ambiguous. > > > Unless uniqueness can be guaranteed, I don't see a way around the > > > requirement of having a fully scoped IPv6 implementation in these > > > terminals. Any host operating system that tries to enable users to take > > > full advantage of wireless connectivity will be faced with the same > > > dilemma. Ditto application developers. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 07:41:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78EeuCM001073; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Eeuje001072; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78EenCM001062 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78EcAV7000808 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78Ec4D1011792 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:38:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h78EcbpU006599; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:38:38 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h78Ecap8006598; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:38:36 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Mika Liljeberg To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Hans Kruse , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1060353516.692.57.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 08 Aug 2003 17:38:36 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 14:52, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > If they do that, they will have ignored the health warnings > we will put on the RFC. Seeing as a good many of those networks will be residential, some of those network managers very probably will not know about any health warnings (having bought the zero configuration home gateway box and WLAN base station from Wall Mart). What I wanted to point out, though, is that network merging might not be the most common collision scenario by a fair margin. I would prefer it if the use of semi-unique local scope addresses were restricted to non-connected networks. For any connected network you can assume that the network manager is able go to some registry website and grab a guaranteed unique prefix. MikaL > Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > The "application" is wireless connectivity to network XYZ, where the > > network manager of network XYZ controls the choise of the address space > > used. Multi-access basically stands for simultaneous access to multiple > > different networks, possibly under different administration. I.e., the > > terminal is effectively a host participating in multiple sites at the > > same time. Since we can't control the network managers, we simply have > > to assume that some of them will choose to use limited range addressing. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:07:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78F7iCM001294; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78F7gON001293; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78F7bCM001286 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78F4vUu020938 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78F4ph4014520 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:04:50 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdXzuJMbKADWjBRsqbpXfwq0yA/wAXo6FQ From: "Michel Py" To: Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78F7cCM001287 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > Among who? You continue to talk about consumers and how > things would be easier for them with site-locals. No > consumers are using route filtering today. No consumers > will need to use route filtering. On which planet are you living? I have seen hundreds of consumer networks that use route filtering. Even on my home router I have a dozen of route-maps. Get real. > ISPs use route filtering. People with corporate networks > use route filtering. But they do it for the other reasones > (see above), not for security. That is blatantly false. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:10:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78F9xCM001360; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78F9xPa001359; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78F9rCM001351 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78F7EV7008174 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78F78nW003345 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:08 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdcSEvq5Kb3UfaTfSaEFMba4FjbAATXWNg From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78F9tCM001353 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Eliot Lear wrote: > The question isn't whether you *can* do it but whether > it's a good and scalable approach. There was code > *before* this debate started. Indeed. And people were deploying before this debate started as well. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:33:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FXYCM002275; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78FXYFT002274; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FXSCM002267 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78FUmUu028352 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78FUg68014491 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:30:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:30:41 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Thread-Index: AcNdoWsNPd3ppINGS92VtBlYOfJBDAAHjnoQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78FXUCM002268 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I don't recall that we ever promised to support scoping > of unicast addresses. Not explicitely, but the idea about IPv6 has been since the beginning that it would better than IPv4 with more bits (which we could have delivered years ago). One of these things that could make it better is scoping for unicast addresses. Specifically, I do not see how we could remove ambiguity of private addresses at this time without something like scoping. > RFC 1752 refers to the scope field in multicast addresses, > which I certainly don't propose to abolish. Separate issue; I was not thinking about multicast at all. > I don't see why the lack of explicit scope for IPv6 > unicast is an inhibitor. See above. As I said earlier, it has good sides and bad sides. From the enterprise network manager point of view, I do think that many actually care a lot about what kind of simplification scoping can bring in terms of access-control and security. Specifically, although the routers will continue to think in terms of IPO addresses, scoping could bring some automation in building default access-lists that would be nice to have. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:39:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FdkCM002590; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78FdiTQ002589; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FdcCM002582 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78FaxV7016867 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78Far1i029403 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:36:54 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:36:53 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Thread-Index: AcNdpHmQYjD45IdvR2C9z0+wTyeQWgAHcmCA From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78FdeCM002583 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > I think it does, because it makes "less than global" ambiguous. > Does it mean "my intranet", "my intranet plus a VPN to company > X", "a VPN to company X but not my intranet", "my VPNs to > companies X and Y plus a secure subset of my intranet", or a > combinatorial number of similar choices? I would be open to accept the idea that it means "my intranet" and that we would need to use global addresses for the rest of the scenarios you mentioned. It's not as flexible as it-could-be-if-we-lived-in-a-perfect-world, but will address the bulk of the needs. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:44:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FijCM002701; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Fiji4002700; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FieCM002693 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78Fg1V7019328 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78FftnW027034 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:41:55 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdnFFSeeuPGEzBQiqKWwqGxI6PswAJq9Dg From: "Michel Py" To: "Tim Chown" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78FifCM002694 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tim, > Tim Chown wrote: > I like the method Alcatel use on my combined 802.11/DSL > home router. If I want to add a new wireless device for > home access, rather than having anything able to > associate, or a manual/web configuration of MAC address, > I only need press an "allow association" button that > will for 20-30 seconds let any device attach, from which > point that MAC address is remembered. Of course not > ideal security, but a nice solution for the home user. A little reckless IMHO, if your neighbor's wireless is up there is a strong risk of allowing association. > Similar approaches could be adopted for the types > of scenarios here. Indeed. My point was that Joe Six-Pack can eventually push a button, but not remove a default route. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 08:48:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FmhCM002942; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78FmhNm002941; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78FmYCM002927 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78FjtUu004246 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78FjnD1003441 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:45:48 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdZDPp6j5TjonQRxCWpOgfyD97WwAX3Mkg From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" Cc: "Tony Hain" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78FmaCM002928 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, > Eliot Lear wrote: > I was referring to the smaller devices a'la Linksys, > DNET, etc. The first part of my post also did. When you scratch the surface it works on an IP address basis, the rest is GUI paint to make it easy on Joe. > With ciscos you pretty much run sed on the header > if you want to In the example I pasted it was not my choice; there was no other way. > - not that I think it's a good idea. Well, if there is a good reason for it which I am confident there is, it's ok. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 09:30:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GU6CM005342; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78GU6DO005341; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GTvCM005325 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78GRHUu019104 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78GRB68002133 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:27:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:27:07 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Pekka Savola'" Cc: "'Mans Nilsson'" , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:26:11 -0700 Message-ID: <063501c35dc9$c9d70ef0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > So, what exactly is wrong with the Bellovin/Zill Router > Advertisement option proposals which make it very easy for > normally local-only appliances to restrict the nodes they > allow access from? For the function it performs, nothing. What it lacks is a prefix space to advertise that is not in any way associated with an aggregate that is being announced in global routing. Fortunately that prefix space is available using the Hinden draft. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 09:32:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GW7CM005637; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78GW7QV005634; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GW0CM005606 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78GTKUu019829 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78GTE1i002267 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:29:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19lA6d-00047A-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:28:43 +0200 To: Michel Py Subject: RE: apps people? Message-ID: <1060360123.3f33cfbbc2794@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:28:43 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Michel Py : > > fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > > Among who? You continue to talk about consumers and how > > things would be easier for them with site-locals. No > > consumers are using route filtering today. No consumers > > will need to use route filtering. > > On which planet are you living? I have seen hundreds of consumer > networks that use route filtering. Even on my home router I have a > dozen > of route-maps. Get real. Planet Earth. Please describe for me what consumer networks (a home connection to an ADSL provider for example) that have dynamic routing with their service providers? Because I sure hope that those service providers have a single line, deny everyting, in their route-filtering with their consumer customers. > > ISPs use route filtering. People with corporate networks > > use route filtering. But they do it for the other reasones > > (see above), not for security. > > That is blatantly false. Ok, so you mean that people like Sprint and Telia doesn't use route-filtering on their BGP peers in order to allow only paying customers transit? And that they doesn't use route-filtering on their incoming BGP peers from multihoming customers to ensure that those customers do not announce the Internet back to them? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 09:54:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GsNCM006606; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78GsLVB006605; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78GsFCM006585 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78GpZUu027374 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78GpT68010064 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:51:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:51:28 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:50:33 -0700 Message-ID: <064201c35dcd$2efb3600$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F3386C9.73700C35@zurich.ibm.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78GsHCM006590 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > ... > > No, a link must be wholly contained within a site, and by > definition > > anything that is less than global fits wholly within global. Yes > > multiple local regions can overlap, but that does not > invalidate the > > overall model. > > I think it does, because it makes "less than global" > ambiguous. Does it mean "my intranet", "my intranet plus a > VPN to company X", "a VPN to company X but not my intranet", > "my VPNs to companies X and Y plus a secure subset of my > intranet", or a combinatorial number of similar choices? Why do you assume it needs a predefined meaning? I am approaching this from the perspective that the local network manager defines what it means in context. They do this all the time with routing areas, so why is a scope context any different? > ... > > I agree with the last sentence, but not the premise about > defining an > > API. One way to describe a desired outcome would be, bind > to a limited > > range address associated with ibm.com. > > Indeed. Good example. It turns out to be a list of about 139 > IPv4 prefixes, manually maintained. I got that from my VPN > setup. That's exactly the problem. So add sub-domains whenever there is a real difference in usefulness of any prefix in the list (fwiw: I assume that the 139 are artifacts of history, and there are probably less than 6 real groupings). Since these are unique, once the system has one it will be clear which interface or context it should be used with. > ... > > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > > > > We could choose to ignore the most commonly deployed segment of the > > existing Internet, but how useful would the results be. > > That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that trying to > solve it with a simple concentric-circles model of scope is > impossible. I doubt it is impossible. More challenging than global flat routing? Yes, but not impossible. In any case, I think the point you are bringing up is that truly global routing is a rare exception, and the vast bulk of the environment lives in the middle space. If so, I agree which leads to the question, why are we trying to optimize the address space and api's around the least likely usage scenario? I realize it makes app development simpler to assume the world is flat, but if the bulk of reality says otherwise, shouldn't we acknowledge that and bring app development into the 21st century? Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 10:07:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78H7fCM007127; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78H7frp007126; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78H7WCM007111 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78H4rV7017471 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78H4k68014095 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:04:44 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Alain Durand'" Cc: Subject: RE: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [wasRe: Moving forward ....]]) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:03:48 -0700 Message-ID: <064301c35dcf$0a25aac0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F338E21.F187D070@zurich.ibm.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I share Tony's frustration with long hiatus in multi6, but it > seems to be unstuck at the moment. I also agree that it's > hard to separate the topics, but I see no practical advantage > in repatriating the multihoming issue into this WG, which > already has a diverse agenda. Yes it is unstuck, but I strongly suggest it be brought back into this WG because (1) it is way outside the bounds of figuring out how to operate a multihomed network, and into rearchitecting the system in ways that will seriously undermine all assumptions about reachability and security, (2) is completely off the radar of anyone that did not stick it out through the dead time, & (3) is the root of the discussion here about the utility of simultaneous use of addresses with different reachability characteristics. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 10:08:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78H8ZCM007214; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78H8Z0T007213; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78H8OCM007187; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78H5iUu002653; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from angelo.kcl.ac.uk (angelo.kcl.ac.uk [137.73.66.5]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78H5dD1029894; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:05:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ctr-Dev.kcl.ac.uk (EE077.eee.kcl.ac.uk [137.73.10.124]) by angelo.kcl.ac.uk with ESMTP id h78H592W000349; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:05:35 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030808175608.00a631e0@pop2.kcl.ac.uk> X-Sender: kkqd2740@pop2.kcl.ac.uk Disposition-Notification-To: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:05:46 +0100 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Audsin Subject: neighbor Discovery for Mobile IPv6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Respected Sir / madam I wish to know whether the Neighbor discovery procedure (neighbor solicitation, neighbor advertisement, router advertisement ) know that mobile IPv6 is enabled in a particular host as per the MIPv6 draft 24. Does the neighbor discovery procedure detect that MIPv6 is running in a particular system as per the MIPv6 draft 24 ( does the Neighbor discovery procedure aware of the MIPv6 if it is enabled in a particular host ) Best regards Dev -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 10:33:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HXQCM008568; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78HXQJ3008565; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HXFCM008557 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78HUaUu011689 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78HUU1i009559 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:30:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJB001679YU8O@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:30:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJB009JM9YTWD@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:30:30 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:30:28 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: WG focus (was: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [wasRe: Moving forward ....]]) To: Tony Hain Cc: Thomas Narten , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Randy Bush Message-id: <3F33DE34.10709@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <064301c35dcf$0a25aac0$70144104@eagleswings> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, I do not think it will work. Way too many efforts failed in the v6 wg and it is time to focus, not create again a mega wg. I have an alternate suggestion: - recharter the ipv6 wg to focus on advancing the protocol elements. - move the discussion on the operational requirements around the issues of address stability/locality/availability to v6Ops. after all, v6ops is the operational wg for IPv6! - if multi6 and/or v6ops conclude that some fundamental changes need to happen wrt the address architecture, charter an ad-hoc wg to focus on this problem. I think this course of action will enable us to make progress on this sensitive issue. - Alain. Tony Hain wrote: >Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >>I share Tony's frustration with long hiatus in multi6, but it >>seems to be unstuck at the moment. I also agree that it's >>hard to separate the topics, but I see no practical advantage >>in repatriating the multihoming issue into this WG, which >>already has a diverse agenda. >> >> > >Yes it is unstuck, but I strongly suggest it be brought back into this WG >because (1) it is way outside the bounds of figuring out how to operate a >multihomed network, and into rearchitecting the system in ways that will >seriously undermine all assumptions about reachability and security, (2) is >completely off the radar of anyone that did not stick it out through the >dead time, & (3) is the root of the discussion here about the utility of >simultaneous use of addresses with different reachability characteristics. > >Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 10:35:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HZFCM008691; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78HZFpY008690; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HZ6CM008675 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78HWRV7027352 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78HWMi0008410 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h78HWDS26347; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:32:13 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308081732> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdAnSv5N; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:32:11 PDT Message-ID: <3F33E042.70309@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:39:14 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliot Lear CC: Tony Hain , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> <3F330422.1090805@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, Eliot Lear wrote: > I am not mandating any such thing. I am saying that you are > architecting toward a solution that is best solved elsewhere. AND > what we have works without such constructs - with two notable exceptions: > > We do need to handle the disconnected and intermittenly connected > network carefully and in a reasonable way. Here I don't think we have > good answers -- YET. I do not wish to sweep this one under the rug. In the interest of not seeing this swept under the rug as you say, let's discuss the disconnected/intermittently-connected network case. We require stable addressing for apps within such networks independent of what may be going on with the provider point(s) of attachment. This seems to rule out provider- assigned prefixes, since these are not portable and expire after extended periods of disconnected operation. (Do you have a differing opinion on this?) It seems to me that if the world were perfect, each "site" could procure its own global prefixes independent of any provider and arrange to have the them advertised into the global backbone by their current provider; even if they skip around to different provider points of attachment from time to time. But, we all know that this would lead to an immediate scaling issue for the global routing table. If someone knows that a solution for scalable global routing in a flat address space is close at hand, I wish they would speak up so that we could all get on with the business of deploying it! Failing such, we seem to have limited range addressing and "graceful" renumbering as alternative options. Perhaps there are others also? > And then there is the case of renumbering and managing networks > through renumbers. That's where Fred's stuff comes in. Yes, but if you read the draft, the renumbering procedures Fred (Baker) describes are anything *but* "graceful". I shudder at the prospect of "finding all the places" (where addresses to be renumbered lurk) in anything but the simplest of networks. I'd sure like to hear Fred's perspective on this, however. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > Eliot > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 10:53:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HrpCM010378; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Hrp6S010377; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78HrhCM010355 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78Hp3Uu019523 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78HovD1014704 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:50:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2003 10:56:12 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-261.cisco.com [10.21.81.5]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h78Hot7F025294; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F33E2FE.90302@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:50:54 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Templin CC: Tony Hain , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <05ad01c35d4a$c981b5b0$70144104@eagleswings> <3F330422.1090805@cisco.com> <3F33E042.70309@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3F33E042.70309@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred Templin wrote: > In the interest of not seeing this swept under the rug as you say, let's > discuss > the disconnected/intermittently-connected network case. We require stable > addressing for apps within such networks independent of what may be going > on with the provider point(s) of attachment. This seems to rule out > provider- > assigned prefixes, since these are not portable and expire after extended > periods of disconnected operation. (Do you have a differing opinion on > this?) No and yes. No, I think that given today's technology I believe we need stable addresses so that lack of connectivity does not cause internal transport connections to fail. Yes, I wonder whether this could be sufficiently handled by minimum length leases that are retained for orders of months. > > Failing such, we seem to have limited > range addressing > and "graceful" renumbering as alternative options. Perhaps there are > others also? Yes: a default address, which is different from a limited range address. The default address goes away when overriden. >> And then there is the case of renumbering and managing networks >> through renumbers. That's where Fred's stuff comes in. > > > Yes, but if you read the draft, the renumbering procedures Fred (Baker) > describes > are anything *but* "graceful". I shudder at the prospect of "finding all > the places" > (where addresses to be renumbered lurk) in anything but the simplest of > networks. > I'd sure like to hear Fred's perspective on this, however. I think I've contributed some words to Fred's draft, at this point. But this is where I would put my ernest efforts. Getting from one prefix to another is indeed painful at this point and probably requires some protocol development here and there. For instance, consider the NS record that is stored in the GTLD servers. How does that get updated automatically? Then there is the order of operations in terms of both internal and external DNS servers. We need to see that authentication is widely implemented for DDNS (SIG(0) and such). Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 11:15:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78IF3CM011398; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78IF2G9011397; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78IEtCM011374 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78ICFUu027041 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78IC968003902 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:12:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:12:08 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" , "'Fred Templin'" Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:11:12 -0700 Message-ID: <065001c35dd8$734ef7a0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F33E2FE.90302@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78IEvCM011381 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > ... > No, I think that given today's technology I > believe we need > stable addresses so that lack of connectivity does not cause internal > transport connections to fail. ?!? > Yes, I wonder whether this could be > sufficiently handled by minimum length leases that are retained for > orders of months. This is a business model issue and out of scope. > > > > > Failing such, we seem to have limited > > range addressing > > and "graceful" renumbering as alternative options. Perhaps > there are > > others also? > > Yes: a default address, which is different from a limited > range address. The default address goes away when overriden. Reconcile this with your first point. Maybe you don't care if a file mount drops every time the SP provided prefix changes, but there are many business critical applications where disruption is simply unacceptable. Just because dropping connections is acceptable in one environment does not invalidate the requirement for stable addresses in another environment. > ... > I think I've contributed some words to Fred's draft, at this > point. But > this is where I would put my ernest efforts. Getting from > one prefix to > another is indeed painful at this point and probably requires some > protocol development here and there. For instance, consider the NS > record that is stored in the GTLD servers. How does that get updated > automatically? > > Then there is the order of operations in terms of both internal and > external DNS servers. We need to see that authentication is widely > implemented for DDNS (SIG(0) and such). DNS is the least of the concerns, because it is a 'centralized' database that the network manager knows will need to be dealt with. The real problems are all the places that addresses get stored by the end users, therefore out of sight. You can say this is wrong and bad procedure, but it happens regularly, and often for business critical reasons. Prefix overlap is the best we are going to do in terms of renumbering, and that is still unacceptable instability for internal-only applications. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 12:09:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78J9eCM014703; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78J9eLn014701; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78J9ZCM014689 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78J6uUu015633 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78J6onW007427 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNdyjFlGfAug9QiSSSh3eZ87Zr4ZgAD4JlA From: "Michel Py" To: Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78J9ZCM014690 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > Please describe for me what consumer networks (a home connection > to an ADSL provider for example) that have dynamic routing with > their service providers? Mine, for example. I have a residential SBC aDSL line, single static IP, 256kbit up / 1mbit down for $49/mo which is mainstream in California. I have two IPv4 eBGP peers, three IPv6 eBGP peers (not the same ones as v4), six EIGRP neighbors across IPSEC tunnels and I also do VOIP across tunnels, p2p file sharing (for educational purposes only, you understand) and some other stuff. For customers I have installed lots of Cisco 800 series for ISDN, IDSL and ADSL, some of which with built-in voice such as the 827-4V for aDSL or the uBR924/925 for cable and they all have dynamic routing and route-maps, and these are at people's homes, but part of their business network. Just because you've never seen any does not mean it does not exist. > Ok, so you mean that people like Sprint and Telia doesn't use > route-filtering on their BGP peers in order to allow only paying > customers transit? And that they doesn't use route-filtering on > their incoming BGP peers from multihoming customers to ensure > that those customers do not announce the Internet back to them? Yes they do and so do I, what is your point? Your view appears to be limited to a very small fraction of the Internet and appears to stop at the border router of the enterprise. Beyond these border routers, there are hundreds and sometimes thousands of routers in the private network. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 12:13:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JCsCM014888; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78JCsXk014887; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JCjCM014880 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78JA6V7001818 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78JA11i004801 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:10:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2003 12:15:16 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-261.cisco.com [10.21.81.5]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h78J9p7F022794; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F33F57C.2010802@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:09:48 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Fred Templin'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <065001c35dd8$734ef7a0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <065001c35dd8$734ef7a0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Briefly (as I am short for time today): Tony Hain wrote: >>Yes, I wonder whether this could be >>sufficiently handled by minimum length leases that are retained for >>orders of months. > > > This is a business model issue and out of scope. BCPs cover business model, but before we argue whether it's a business model problem -- because if that's all it is the market can decide, then let's at least understand just how far we can get with it technically. See below. > > >>>Failing such, we seem to have limited >>>range addressing >>>and "graceful" renumbering as alternative options. Perhaps >> >>there are >> >>>others also? >> >>Yes: a default address, which is different from a limited >>range address. The default address goes away when overriden. > > > Reconcile this with your first point. Maybe you don't care if a file mount > drops every time the SP provided prefix changes, but there are many business > critical applications where disruption is simply unacceptable. Just because > dropping connections is acceptable in one environment does not invalidate > the requirement for stable addresses in another environment. I think we have different notions of "change" here. I don't see a need or a reason for an IP address to vanish like a routing update. Instead, it should linger for some "reasonable" period of time first until some other prefix is preferred (and that might yet again be the default) and then be removed some time after that. In answer to your first sentence, however, I do believe work needs to be done in this space. It's not easy to renumber -- yet (although it's a lot easier than it was 10 years ago). > > >>... >>I think I've contributed some words to Fred's draft, at this >>point. But >>this is where I would put my ernest efforts. Getting from >>one prefix to >>another is indeed painful at this point and probably requires some >>protocol development here and there. For instance, consider the NS >>record that is stored in the GTLD servers. How does that get updated >>automatically? >> >>Then there is the order of operations in terms of both internal and >>external DNS servers. We need to see that authentication is widely >>implemented for DDNS (SIG(0) and such). > > > DNS is the least of the concerns, because it is a 'centralized' database > that the network manager knows will need to be dealt with. The real problems > are all the places that addresses get stored by the end users, therefore out > of sight. You can say this is wrong and bad procedure, but it happens > regularly, and often for business critical reasons. Prefix overlap is the > best we are going to do in terms of renumbering, and that is still > unacceptable instability for internal-only applications. First, I'd like to point out that even here there has been major improvement. I sit here and type on a desktop that changes IP addresses routinely, and I am able to send and retrieve mail, as well as participate in interactive multimedia conversations. Having said all that, I would agree that there remains a lot of work to be done. I think a key component, though, is seeing that renumbering occurs smoothly with DNS and that DNS properly identifies those objects that need identifying. Perhaps it's time to revisit the work done by the old PIER working group so that we can get some understanding of where these addresses still get burried. This brings us back to Fred Baker's draft. As to instability, I have to say that you can't know till we've tried and right now I don't really think we've done a good job of trying. In today's world, given today's tools, I would agree with you that there is a lot of instability and using the IP address as a stable identifier is your only option. So this is what network admins use -- not because they want to, but because they HAVE to. If they WANTED to use this sort of identifier, DHCP and PPP would not be so popular. So, I'd suggest that we continue to flesh out the renumbering procedures draft, looking for those hidden addresses. I'd also suggest that until we've done that, we're going to go around in circles. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 12:34:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JYiCM016390; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78JYiWG016389; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JYeCM016379 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78JW1V7010220 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78JVt68026522 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www-data by mailhost.packetfront.com with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19lCxg-0005Qj-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:31:40 +0200 To: Michel Py Subject: RE: apps people? Message-ID: <1060371100.3f33fa9c3b750@webmail.packetfront.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:31:40 +0200 (CEST) From: fredrik@packetfront.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 217.215.92.209 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Citerat från Michel Py : > > fredrik@packetfront.com wrote: > > Please describe for me what consumer networks (a home connection > > to an ADSL provider for example) that have dynamic routing with > > their service providers? > > Mine, for example. I have a residential SBC aDSL line, single static > IP, > 256kbit up / 1mbit down for $49/mo which is mainstream in California. > I > have two IPv4 eBGP peers, three IPv6 eBGP peers (not the same ones as > v4), six EIGRP neighbors across IPSEC tunnels and I also do VOIP > across > tunnels, p2p file sharing (for educational purposes only, you > understand) and some other stuff. Would you say that your network is a typical representation of a future Joe Six- Pack network with IPv6? With the eBGP peers and all? With that setup I think you are competent enough to handle your IPv6 internal network, and filtering (routing, access-lists and what not) without relying on site locals for any of it. > For customers I have installed lots of Cisco 800 series for ISDN, IDSL > and ADSL, some of which with built-in voice such as the 827-4V for > aDSL > or the uBR924/925 for cable and they all have dynamic routing and > route-maps, and these are at people's homes, but part of their > business > network. So the people in whos homes these devices are installed have several subnets internally and therefore needs to run a dynamic routing protocol within their home as well as extending it to the service provider upstream? Is NAT involved here somewhere? Or do you mean that there are VPNish configurations over which the dynamic routing is run with an internal corporate network but still a static configuration for the defaultroute to the service provider and vice verse? Does the people in their home manage their configuration and routers themselves or is that provided as part of the service? In my view the "consumer" is the average user connecting the home to the Internet by some form of broadband access to get access to triple-play services etc. Perhaps that connection is also used for telecommuting. But I do not see the requirement for dynamic routing and through that route filtering with the upstream service provider(s). Running a VPN tunnel and routing over that to the job over the broadband access is a different thing, most likely not involving the service provider at all except for carrying tunnel packets. > > Ok, so you mean that people like Sprint and Telia doesn't use > > route-filtering on their BGP peers in order to allow only paying > > customers transit? And that they doesn't use route-filtering on > > their incoming BGP peers from multihoming customers to ensure > > that those customers do not announce the Internet back to them? > > Yes they do and so do I, what is your point? Your view appears to be > limited to a very small fraction of the Internet and appears to stop > at > the border router of the enterprise. Beyond these border routers, > there > are hundreds and sometimes thousands of routers in the private > network. I commented on route filtering in combination with security. I argue that route filtering for security to prevent hacking is neither common nor encouraged. There are many valid uses of route filtering in networks with routing requirements. I do not think the average consumer network will be of such complexity to require filtering of routes, and I do not think that site locals would add anything if route filtering would be used for security to prevent hacking. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 12:56:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JuJCM018447; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78JuJic018446; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78JuCCM018410 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78JrXUu029624 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78JrR68001975 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:53:26 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" Cc: "'Fred Templin'" , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:52:30 -0700 Message-ID: <065601c35de6$9a9a98b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F33F57C.2010802@cisco.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78JuDCM018414 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > ... > >>>Failing such, we seem to have limited > >>>range addressing > >>>and "graceful" renumbering as alternative options. Perhaps > >> > >>there are > >> > >>>others also? > >> > >>Yes: a default address, which is different from a limited > >>range address. The default address goes away when overriden. > > > > > > Reconcile this with your first point. Maybe you don't care > if a file > > mount drops every time the SP provided prefix changes, but > there are > > many business critical applications where disruption is simply > > unacceptable. Just because dropping connections is > acceptable in one > > environment does not invalidate the requirement for stable > addresses > > in another environment. > > I think we have different notions of "change" here. I don't > see a need > or a reason for an IP address to vanish like a routing > update. Instead, > it should linger for some "reasonable" period of time first > until some > other prefix is preferred (and that might yet again be the > default) and > then be removed some time after that. So how does the system work when a new app comes up while the initial one is still running with the 'lingering' address? Does it take the new or the old one? If new, how does it contact a node that is currently in the prefix space of the lingering address, since the internal route will claim that is still on link? For that matter, how do bits get routed to the 'lingering' interface if the prefix has been moved in the routing system? What if the lingering one is one of the apps that insists on passing the now stale address to a 3rd party? I don't believe there are any realistic current technologies that make this work. Your argument ammounts to making the address stable for the duration of the app, but there is no way for the app to tell the routing system how long it will need it. The requirement is for applications to be stable, independent of what is happening at the SP interconnect. Given TCP behavior, this leads to a requirement for address stability. > > In answer to your first sentence, however, I do believe work > needs to be > done in this space. It's not easy to renumber -- yet > (although it's a > lot easier than it was 10 years ago). Renumbering host interfaces is easier, but there is a lot more involved in a renumbering scenario. While it arguably viable to renumber external prefixes using the RA overlap technique, that is not sufficiently stable for internal-use applications. If there is no space set aside for this purpose, network managers will simply take a random number and use NAT. Business critical stability will trump 'the good of the Internet' every time. > ... > > DNS is the least of the concerns, because it is a 'centralized' > > database that the network manager knows will need to be dealt with. > > The real problems are all the places that addresses get > stored by the > > end users, therefore out of sight. You can say this is > wrong and bad > > procedure, but it happens regularly, and often for business > critical > > reasons. Prefix overlap is the best we are going to do in terms of > > renumbering, and that is still unacceptable instability for > > internal-only applications. > > First, I'd like to point out that even here there has been major > improvement. I sit here and type on a desktop that changes > IP addresses > routinely, and I am able to send and retrieve mail, as well as > participate in interactive multimedia conversations. Having said all > that, I would agree that there remains a lot of work to be done. I > think a key component, though, is seeing that renumbering occurs > smoothly with DNS and that DNS properly identifies those objects that > need identifying. > You are arguing that the capability of doing something within the context of a single trust domain will translate into the interdomain space. While I agree that an authenticated DDNS is a critical component, we are nowhere near close to a scalable definition of that. Primarily due to lack of a decent ubiquitous key infrastructure. Tony > Perhaps it's time to revisit the work done by the old PIER > working group > so that we can get some understanding of where these > addresses still get > burried. This brings us back to Fred Baker's draft. > > As to instability, I have to say that you can't know till we've tried > and right now I don't really think we've done a good job of > trying. In > today's world, given today's tools, I would agree with you > that there is > a lot of instability and using the IP address as a stable > identifier is > your only option. So this is what network admins use -- not because > they want to, but because they HAVE to. If they WANTED to > use this sort > of identifier, DHCP and PPP would not be so popular. > > So, I'd suggest that we continue to flesh out the renumbering > procedures > draft, looking for those hidden addresses. I'd also suggest > that until > we've done that, we're going to go around in circles. > > Eliot > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 13:12:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KCwCM019871; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78KCvUl019870; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KCrCM019863 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78KAEUu004982 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78KA968006490 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:10:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9009C14151; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13021-14; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFBC13FF8; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:08:41 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030808160841.66656a28.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <065601c35de6$9a9a98b0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F33F57C.2010802@cisco.com> <065601c35de6$9a9a98b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Renumbering host interfaces is easier, but there is a lot more involved in a > renumbering scenario. While it arguably viable to renumber external prefixes > using the RA overlap technique, that is not sufficiently stable for > internal-use applications. there is no justification for the idea that internal-use applications have a greater need for stability than other applications. actually, it's not clear that there is a significant class of inherently "internal-use applications". for most things that people put into that category (e.g. printing, file access), there are significant and valid use cases for running them across network boundaries. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 13:34:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KYFCM022031; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78KYFqF022030; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KYCCM022020 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78KVSV7029907 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78KVMnW027462 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78KUN211390; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 22:30:23 +0200 Message-ID: <3F34085E.3050101@it.su.se> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:30:22 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: Tony Hain , lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F33F57C.2010802@cisco.com> <065601c35de6$9a9a98b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030808160841.66656a28.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030808160841.66656a28.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > >there is no justification for the idea that internal-use applications have a >greater need for stability than other applications. > >actually, it's not clear that there is a significant class of inherently >"internal-use applications". for most things that people put into that >category (e.g. printing, file access), there are significant and valid use >cases for running them across network boundaries. > > Exactly. My experience as an edge-site operator is that there are few if any apps which are only used internally. MVH leifj -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 13:46:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KkRCM022434; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78KkR1U022433; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78KkMCM022426 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78KhhUu016056 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78KhcD1004362 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:43:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJB00BEQIWP1A@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:43:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJB005IGIWP5U@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:43:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:43:36 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope To: matthew.ford@bt.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F340B78.2040403@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk matthew.ford@bt.com wrote: >... Which makes it doubly annoying that I didn't receive the original >mail from Brian. And this is only one of many examples I could give of >replies to mail on this list for which I have never received the >original mail. I suspect this may be a consequence of the volume of mail >to the list in recent days. That doesn't make it excusable though. Given >Sun's recent admission that they aren't competent to run an IPv6-enabled >webserver, should they be managing the mailserver for this list? > >Mat > The reason you're not receiving some mail is because the mail relays of your company do not accept mails when then number of "Received from header is greater than 17. This value used to be reasonable in the good old days but is not anymore. Get your system admin to change it and things will get better for you. Note: our mailling list admin contacted them about this issue long ago, apparently they haven't done anything to change things yet. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 14:00:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78L0eCM023037; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78L0edF023035; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78L0XCM023024 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78KvrUu020848 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78Kvmi0009068 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:57:48 -0700 Message-ID: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNd47ln4YA4HUqESSGR7+iqnqxxsAABeuJg From: "Michel Py" To: Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78L0XCM023026 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Would you say that your network is a typical representation of > a future Joe Six- Pack network with IPv6? With the eBGP peers > and all? A little overkill for Joe Six-Pack, but the eBGP peering is already available for free from several providers, I don't see why it would change for power users. > With that setup I think you are competent enough to handle your > IPv6 internal network, and filtering (routing, access-lists and > what not) without relying on site locals for any of it. I always like that people that haven't even seen a diagram of my network teach me how I should operate it. > So the people in whos homes these devices are installed have > several subnets internally Not internal to their home. Their home subnet is part of the corporate address plan. > and therefore needs to run a dynamic routing protocol within their > home as well as extending it to the service provider upstream? No relation with the former paragraph but yes. Static routes suck. > Is NAT involved here somewhere? Most of the time. > Or do you mean that there are VPNish configurations over which > the dynamic routing is run with an internal corporate network > but still a static configuration for the defaultroute to the > service provider and vice verse? For v4, mostly. There are three types of config. On one the default route comes from the dynamic routing and goes across the tunnel; the only routes in the home router are two /32 routes to the corporate VPN endpoints (pointing to the default gateway of the ISP). This ensures that even regular web surfing is encrypted on the last mile. On the other one the tunnel is used to access the corporate network only and the regular Internet traffic goes over the default route to the ISP. On another one there is no public Internet access and the network is used to access corporate assets only (typically there will be another PC to access the net). For v6 there is no clear picture. > Does the people in their home manage their configuration and > routers themselves or is that provided as part of the service? No, heaven forbid. Done by corporate IT and/or consultants. > In my view the "consumer" is the average user connecting > the home to the Internet by some form of broadband access > to get access to triple-play services etc. Perhaps that > connection is also used for telecommuting. But I do not > see the requirement for dynamic routing and through that > route filtering with the upstream service provider(s). How do you configure multiple links? A T1 with ISDN as a backup (from the same provider) is a very common config. > Running a VPN tunnel and routing over that to the job > over the broadband access is a different thing, most likely > not involving the service provider at all except for > carrying tunnel packets. Correct it's a different animal. > I commented on route filtering in combination with security. > I argue that route filtering for security to prevent hacking > is neither common ridiculous > nor encouraged. There are many valid uses of route filtering > in networks with routing requirements. I do not think the > average consumer network will be of such complexity to require > filtering of routes, and I do not think that site locals would > add anything if route filtering would be used for security to > prevent hacking. You certainly are entitled to an opinion, but the bottom line is that it is my call and I decided otherwise. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 14:11:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78LBdCM023576; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78LBdnj023575; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78LBYCM023557 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78L8tUu024505 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78L8n68022984 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:08:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:08:48 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:07:52 -0700 Message-ID: <066201c35df1$219350f0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030808160841.66656a28.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78LBZCM023559 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > there is no justification for the idea that internal-use > applications have a greater need for stability than other > applications. Not in an academic environment, but when people's jobs are on the line they tend to set the bar *much* higher. One example of an app that requires stability is maintaining the multi-$M cash flow through the database backend to a company's ecommerce app. The bar becomes 'did you do everything you could with current technology to keep it running?' When the answer is 'no, I could have put in a NAT to isolate those systems from any external prefix change', what do you think will happen? It doesn't matter that the IETF said 'nat is bad & crashing applications during a renumber is not a problem', they will do what they have to before they allow a failure. > > actually, it's not clear that there is a significant class of > inherently "internal-use applications". for most things that > people put into that category (e.g. printing, file access), > there are significant and valid use cases for running them > across network boundaries. Running them across network boundaries does not invalidate the need for them to be stable when run internally. It would be nice if people would stop trying to invalidate someone else's requirements just because their own are different. Limited range prefixes do not solve all known problems. They simply solve a subset of the existing problem space. Yes a single aggregatable PI address would solve many of the same requirements, but not all. There will still be a need for prefixes which are explicitly not routed, even accidentally as part of some larger aggregate. fwiw: I have offered documents about a PI space on a couple of occasions, but the chairs have not taken that up. I suspect part of that is due to the multi-homing discussion being handed to multi6. As recent threads show, this topic can't be isolated in an off-the-radar wg because it is the core of the disagreement here. By definition all IPv6 interfaces are multi-homed, and those that can reach off link have to deal with multiple scopes. Wishing that there was a single flat globally routed address space is not going to make it happen. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 15:05:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78M54CM024904; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78M54dv024903; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78M4wCM024878 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78M2JV7002349 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78M2Di0016310 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB02140C5; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24457-10; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3946140A3; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:00:45 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Message-Id: <20030808180045.61f5f62c.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <066201c35df1$219350f0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030808160841.66656a28.moore@cs.utk.edu> <066201c35df1$219350f0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > there is no justification for the idea that internal-use > > applications have a greater need for stability than other > > applications. > > Not in an academic environment, but when people's jobs are on the line they > tend to set the bar *much* higher. (Should I counter with a comment about vendors that try to get their customers to invest in shortsighted and inflexible solutions?) > One example of an app that requires > stability is maintaining the multi-$M cash flow through the database backend > to a company's ecommerce app. Lots of apps require stability. The question is, are many of those apps inherently confined to a particular subnet? The answer is no. Now, if those apps are important enough and it turns out that you can make their network more stable by putting them all in the same subnet, you might do so, even if you have to do bridging, VPNs, or whatever to create that illusion. But you're only having to do that because the basic network technology didn't meet your needs. > The bar becomes 'did you do everything you > could with current technology to keep it running?' When the answer is 'no, I > could have put in a NAT to isolate those systems from any external prefix > change', what do you think will happen? It doesn't matter that the IETF > said'nat is bad & crashing applications during a renumber is not a problem', > they will do what they have to before they allow a failure. Yup, they'll do so, until someone with a clue points out that the NATs are actually causing failures and making the network harder to manage. Then the question will be "why did you install this technology which causes our networks to be brittle and inflexible and our applications to fail?" IETF's purpose is not to provide justification for shortsighted practices. > > actually, it's not clear that there is a significant class of > > inherently "internal-use applications". for most things that > > people put into that category (e.g. printing, file access), > > there are significant and valid use cases for running them > > across network boundaries. > > Running them across network boundaries does not invalidate the need for them > to be stable when run internally. Nor does it invalidate the need for them to be stable when running across a network boundary. What you seem to be saying is that (a) the "local apps that need stable addresses" case is so compelling that we need to adopt a solution which we know causes a lot of problems and (b) the requirements of other apps for stable addresses are by comparison so unimportant that we should delay working on that solution and meanwhile add special-case complexity to solve the problem for purely local apps. However if you can identify a significant class of apps that really is inherently local and really has a greater need for address stability than other apps, I can propose a solution to this problem with essentially no impact to apps (especially those that don't need this extra stability), with small impact to hosts and routers, and which doesn't impose the notion of a single "local" scope either. The reason I haven't proposed this yet is because IMHO it doesn't solve the real problem (we need a reasonable degree of address stability for ALL apps), it adds complexity that would be unnecessary if the real problem were solved, and because it would distract energy from efforts to solve the real problem. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 15:46:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78MkACM029317; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78MkAO5029316; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78Mk3CM029283 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78MhOV7019560 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78MhI68018311 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:43:17 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:42:21 -0700 Message-ID: <067401c35dfe$549800b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030808180045.61f5f62c.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78Mk4CM029288 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > there is no justification for the idea that internal-use > > > applications have a greater need for stability than other > > > applications. > > > > Not in an academic environment, but when people's jobs are > on the line > > they tend to set the bar *much* higher. > > (Should I counter with a comment about vendors that try to > get their customers to invest in shortsighted and inflexible > solutions?) You won't even accept my agreement that academic networks have a 'lack of need' in the same class as those with $M's at stake. > > > One example of an app that requires > > stability is maintaining the multi-$M cash flow through the > database > > backend to a company's ecommerce app. > > Lots of apps require stability. The question is, are many of > those apps inherently confined to a particular subnet? The > answer is no. Now, if those apps are important enough and it > turns out that you can make their network more stable by > putting them all in the same subnet, you might do so, even if > you have to do bridging, VPNs, or whatever to create that illusion. > But you're only having to do that because the basic network > technology didn't meet your needs. I never said this was confined to a particular subnet, just that the addresses had to be stable independent of any events at the SP edge. I don't understand the point of changing the scenario. > > > The bar becomes 'did you do everything you > > could with current technology to keep it running?' When the > answer is > > 'no, I could have put in a NAT to isolate those systems from any > > external prefix change', what do you think will happen? It doesn't > > matter that the IETF said'nat is bad & crashing > applications during a > > renumber is not a problem', they will do what they have to > before they > > allow a failure. > > Yup, they'll do so, until someone with a clue points out that > the NATs are actually causing failures and making the network > harder to manage. Then the question will be "why did you > install this technology which causes our networks to be > brittle and inflexible and our applications to fail?" That has happened, and the answer 'because it is the only current way to preserve n$M incoming cash flow' will always beat out other application failures. Give them a stable address independent of SP, and the arguments about application failure have a chance. > > IETF's purpose is not to provide justification for > shortsighted practices. > > > > actually, it's not clear that there is a significant class of > > > inherently "internal-use applications". for most things that > > > people put into that category (e.g. printing, file access), > > > there are significant and valid use cases for running them > > > across network boundaries. > > > > Running them across network boundaries does not invalidate the need > > for them to be stable when run internally. > > Nor does it invalidate the need for them to be stable when > running across a network boundary. What you seem to be > saying is that (a) the "local apps that need stable > addresses" case is so compelling that we need to adopt a > solution which we know causes a lot of problems and (b) the > requirements of other apps for stable addresses are by > comparison so unimportant that we should delay working on > that solution and meanwhile add special-case complexity to > solve the problem for purely local apps. I never said delay working on alternatives. In fact the part you cut off was about the effort I have been putting in for awhile now. FUD like 'a lot of problems' is causing more delay than anything else. The problems you have raised in the past stem from multi-homing, so stop claiming that a limited range prefix causes them. > > However if you can identify a significant class of apps that > really is inherently local and really has a greater need for > address stability than other apps, I can propose a solution > to this problem with essentially no impact to apps > (especially those that don't need this extra stability), with > small impact to hosts and routers, and which doesn't impose > the notion of a single "local" scope either. The reason I > haven't proposed this yet is because IMHO it doesn't solve > the real problem (we need a reasonable degree of address > stability for ALL apps), it adds complexity that would be > unnecessary if the real problem were solved, and because it > would distract energy from efforts to solve the real problem. Which is the ultimate failure here, there is no single 'real problem'. The limited-range document describes a set of requirements (read that: real problems), and there are probably more. In keeping, there is no single 'real solution'. Manual configured filtering of PA meets one set of needs, auto-configuration of limited range prefixes meets another set of needs, PI meets yet another set of needs, and these sets of needs all overlap in different ways. Rather than persist with FUD to prevent one set of problems from being solved, we need to get on with defining and deploying the mechansims to solve each of them. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 16:08:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78N8GCM001621; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78N8G2t001620; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78N8ACM001602 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78N5VUu005176 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78N5P1i007058 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:05:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE4513FCB; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29404-10; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453C413FBB; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:03:56 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Message-Id: <20030808190356.79fe7290.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <067401c35dfe$549800b0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030808180045.61f5f62c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <067401c35dfe$549800b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > Not in an academic environment, but when people's jobs are > > > on the line they tend to set the bar *much* higher. > > > > (Should I counter with a comment about vendors that try to > > get their customers to invest in shortsighted and inflexible > > solutions?) > > You won't even accept my agreement that academic networks have a 'lack of > need' in the same class as those with $M's at stake. You appear to be trying to make an implication that my arguments are specific to, or focused on, academic networks, and so therefore are narrow and/or less relevant. You're wrong on both counts. > > Lots of apps require stability. The question is, are many of > > those apps inherently confined to a particular subnet? The > > answer is no. > > I never said this was confined to a particular subnet, just that the > addresses had to be stable independent of any events at the SP edge. I think the requirement is better stated that apps (not just local apps) continue to operate independent of any normal address change events, whether or not at the SP edge. > I don't understand the point of changing the scenario. I don't understand the point of stating the scenario in narrow terms in order to argue for a problematic solution with limited applicability. > > Yup, they'll do so, until someone with a clue points out that > > the NATs are actually causing failures and making the network > > harder to manage. Then the question will be "why did you > > install this technology which causes our networks to be > > brittle and inflexible and our applications to fail?" > > That has happened, and the answer 'because it is the only current way to > preserve n$M incoming cash flow' will always beat out other application > failures. except when those failures prevent that cash flow. > > > Running them across network boundaries does not invalidate the need > > > for them to be stable when run internally. > > > > Nor does it invalidate the need for them to be stable when > > running across a network boundary. What you seem to be > > saying is that (a) the "local apps that need stable > > addresses" case is so compelling that we need to adopt a > > solution which we know causes a lot of problems and (b) the > > requirements of other apps for stable addresses are by > > comparison so unimportant that we should delay working on > > that solution and meanwhile add special-case complexity to > > solve the problem for purely local apps. > > I never said delay working on alternatives. No, but your insistence on SL is having that effect. > The problems you have > raised in the past stem from multi-homing, so stop claiming that a limited > range prefix causes them. I've raised lots of problems regarding scoped addresses, only some of which have to do with multi-homing. Since scoped addresses are being used to justify forcing hosts and apps to rely on address selection (with its inherent problems) to a much greater degree than would otherwise be necessary, it makes sense to focus attention on the dubious assumptions behind scoped addresses. > > However if you can identify a significant class of apps that > > really is inherently local and really has a greater need for > > address stability than other apps, I can propose a solution > > to this problem with essentially no impact to apps > > (especially those that don't need this extra stability), with > > small impact to hosts and routers, and which doesn't impose > > the notion of a single "local" scope either. The reason I > > haven't proposed this yet is because IMHO it doesn't solve > > the real problem (we need a reasonable degree of address > > stability for ALL apps), it adds complexity that would be > > unnecessary if the real problem were solved, and because it > > would distract energy from efforts to solve the real problem. > > Which is the ultimate failure here, there is no single 'real problem'. True enough - it's just a question on how large you want to draw the circle. The trick is to draw the circle in such a way that the solutions are inexpensive and work well. Usually this happens somewhere near (though not precisely at) a complexity minimum. > The > limited-range document describes a set of requirements (read that: real > problems), and there are probably more. In keeping, there is no single 'real > solution'. Manual configured filtering of PA meets one set of needs, > auto-configuration of limited range prefixes meets another set of needs, PI > meets yet another set of needs, and these sets of needs all overlap in > different ways. Rather than persist with FUD to prevent one set of problems > from being solved, we need to get on with defining and deploying the > mechansims to solve each of them. No, it doesn't follow. What you suggest would be reasonable if the various mechanisms were not too costly, did not conflict with one another, and did not preclude development of better solutions. But again, we can solve the local stability problem if there really is a significant use case for it. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 16:42:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78NgKCM004930; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78NgKHG004929; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78NgGCM004919 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78NdbUu016500 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78NdV68002557 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:39:30 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:38:34 -0700 Message-ID: <067601c35e06$2efe2c50$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030808190356.79fe7290.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h78NgGCM004921 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > ... > I think the requirement is better stated that apps (not just > local apps) continue to operate independent of any normal > address change events, whether or not at the SP edge. Nice goal, but requires changes to transport to pull it off. The point is to deliver service long before that will happen. > > > I don't understand the point of changing the scenario. > > I don't understand the point of stating the scenario in > narrow terms in order to argue for a problematic solution > with limited applicability. To bound the problem space to something that can be accomplished without changes to transport. Yes it has limited applicability, but that is not a failure, and the problems only arise when the mechanism is used outside the scenario. For those cases, there are other mechanisms. > ... > > I never said delay working on alternatives. > > No, but your insistence on SL is having that effect. Clearly you are not reading the documents or the mail carefully. I am not insisting on SL. The Hinden draft is not SL, and meets the requirements that have been raised for limited-range. > > > The problems you have > > raised in the past stem from multi-homing, so stop claiming that a > > limited range prefix causes them. > > I've raised lots of problems regarding scoped addresses, only > some of which have to do with multi-homing. Since scoped > addresses are being used to justify forcing hosts and apps to > rely on address selection (with its inherent > problems) to a much greater degree than would otherwise be > necessary, it makes sense to focus attention on the dubious > assumptions behind scoped addresses. >From my recollection, the ones that are not due to multi-homing are simply wishes that filtering in the network would go away. > > > > However if you can identify a significant class of apps that > > > really is inherently local and really has a greater need for > > > address stability than other apps, I can propose a solution > > > to this problem with essentially no impact to apps > > > (especially those that don't need this extra stability), with > > > small impact to hosts and routers, and which doesn't impose > > > the notion of a single "local" scope either. The reason I > > > haven't proposed this yet is because IMHO it doesn't solve > > > the real problem (we need a reasonable degree of address > > > stability for ALL apps), it adds complexity that would be > > > unnecessary if the real problem were solved, and because it > > > would distract energy from efforts to solve the real problem. > > > > Which is the ultimate failure here, there is no single > 'real problem'. > > True enough - it's just a question on how large you want to > draw the circle. > The trick is to draw the circle in such a way that the > solutions are inexpensive and work well. Usually this > happens somewhere near (though not precisely at) a complexity minimum. Again you are looking for a single solution ('the circle'). There are multiple options here and they solve different problem sets. If we really were forced to come up with a single solution, we will be back at nat as the lowest common denominator. > > > The > > limited-range document describes a set of requirements (read that: > > real problems), and there are probably more. In keeping, > there is no > > single 'real solution'. Manual configured filtering of PA meets one > > set of needs, auto-configuration of limited range prefixes meets > > another set of needs, PI meets yet another set of needs, and these > > sets of needs all overlap in different ways. Rather than > persist with > > FUD to prevent one set of problems from being solved, we > need to get > > on with defining and deploying the mechansims to solve each of them. > > No, it doesn't follow. What you suggest would be reasonable > if the various > mechanisms were not too costly, did not conflict with one > another, and did not preclude development of better solutions. Nothing here conflicts with or prevents other solutions. The fact that a limited range address space exists and is used in some networks does not at all impact an individual network manager from using manual configuration from a different prefix space. If a PI approach existed, it would not preclude use (or meet the need) of another space that is known to be excluded from the global routing tables. The only thing that is preventing development of 'better' solutions is spending time trying to kill ones that are achievable in realistic timeframes. If by some magic a killer solution to all the problems showed up, it would easily push the complexity of multiple solutions out of the market. We can't be sitting around waiting until the magic happens. > > But again, we can solve the local stability problem if there > really is a significant use case for it. So solve the requirements and there will not be a need for other approaches. Until then, this filibuster is delaying network managers from deploying IPv6 in a way that will meet their requirements. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 16:52:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78NqSCM005824; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78NqSuB005823; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78NqLCM005784 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78NngV7014049 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78NnZ1i029150 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:49:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h78NnI213610; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:49:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3436FE.2070409@it.su.se> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:49:18 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Keith Moore'" , lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) References: <067401c35dfe$549800b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <067401c35dfe$549800b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >You won't even accept my agreement that academic networks have a 'lack of >need' in the same class as those with $M's at stake. > You should spend some time in the academic world. In most countries the academic institutions are essentially companies offering education and research on a competitive market. There is not inherent difference and real money is just as much at stake. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 16:58:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78Nw7CM006357; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h78Nw75B006356; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h78NvtCM006291 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h78NtGV7016121 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78NtAh4001390 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:55:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76804140D7; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00520-03; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1A414075; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:55:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 19:53:42 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, lear@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Message-Id: <20030808195342.6773c1e8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <067601c35e06$2efe2c50$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030808190356.79fe7290.moore@cs.utk.edu> <067601c35e06$2efe2c50$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > I think the requirement is better stated that apps (not just > > local apps) continue to operate independent of any normal > > address change events, whether or not at the SP edge. > > Nice goal, but requires changes to transport to pull it off. The point is to > deliver service long before that will happen. every solution requires some changes. the point is to find a deployable path to a desirable end-state. whatever solution we come up with, we're going to have to live with for quite awhile. > > > I don't understand the point of changing the scenario. > > > > I don't understand the point of stating the scenario in > > narrow terms in order to argue for a problematic solution > > with limited applicability. > > To bound the problem space to something that can be accomplished without > changes to transport. Yes it has limited applicability, but that is not a > failure, and the problems only arise when the mechanism is used outside the > scenario. For those cases, there are other mechanisms. Again, I don't see the inherent desirability of limiting change to transport if it forces lots of pain on hosts, apps, and operations. > > > I never said delay working on alternatives. > > > > No, but your insistence on SL is having that effect. > > Clearly you are not reading the documents or the mail carefully. I am not > insisting on SL. The Hinden draft is not SL, and meets the requirements that > have been raised for limited-range. I don't buy the requirements you've cited for limited-range. IMHO they still presume too much. > > > The problems you have > > > raised in the past stem from multi-homing, so stop claiming that a > > > limited range prefix causes them. > > > > I've raised lots of problems regarding scoped addresses, only > > some of which have to do with multi-homing. Since scoped > > addresses are being used to justify forcing hosts and apps to > > rely on address selection (with its inherent > > problems) to a much greater degree than would otherwise be > > necessary, it makes sense to focus attention on the dubious > > assumptions behind scoped addresses. > > From my recollection, the ones that are not due to multi-homing are simply > wishes that filtering in the network would go away. No, that's your interpretation of those arguments, and I've explained that on more than one occasion. > > > Which is the ultimate failure here, there is no single > > 'real problem'. > > > > True enough - it's just a question on how large you want to > > draw the circle. > > The trick is to draw the circle in such a way that the > > solutions are inexpensive and work well. Usually this > > happens somewhere near (though not precisely at) a complexity minimum. > > Again you are looking for a single solution ('the circle'). There are > multiple options here and they solve different problem sets. If we really > were forced to come up with a single solution, we will be back at nat as the > lowest common denominator. There are lots of problems and lots of circles. But so far I've seen no compelling reason to separate the problem of providing address stability for local apps from the problem of providing address stability in general. > > Rather than persist with FUD to prevent one set of problems from being > > solved, we need to get on with defining and deploying the mechansims to > > solve each of them. > > > > No, it doesn't follow. What you suggest would be reasonable > > if the various mechanisms were not too costly, did not conflict with one > > another, and did not preclude development of better solutions. > > Nothing here conflicts with or prevents other solutions. Anything that involves ambiguous addresses will cause problems. Anything that increases reliance on address selection will cause problems. Anything that makes it easy for limited reach addresses to leak outside of their routing scope will cause problems. And the more different ways we have to provide address stability, the more failure scenarios we're creating. > > But again, we can solve the local stability problem if there > > really is a significant use case for it. > > So solve the requirements and there will not be a need for other approaches. > Until then, this filibuster is delaying network managers from deploying IPv6 > in a way that will meet their requirements. Well it's not clear that such requirements are valid. Somebody needs to make a convincing case. And even if one accepts the need for a separate local stability solution, this still wouldn't necessarily justify ambiguous addresses or increased reliance on address selection. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 8 18:02:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7912PCM012881; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7912P0N012880; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7912LCM012873 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h790xfV7005751 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-019-240.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.19.240]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h790xa68020430 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:59:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:59:35 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:58:37 -0700 Message-ID: <067e01c35e11$5dfe0790$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030808195342.6773c1e8.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7912LCM012874 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > Anything that involves ambiguous addresses will cause problems. Please read http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00. txt and note there is no requirement for ambiguous addresses. Please read http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.t xt and note there are no ambiguous addresses defined. > Anything that increases reliance on address selection will > cause problems. Having more than one address requires address selection, therefore this issue is with multi-homing, not a particular prefix. > Anything that makes it easy for limited reach > addresses to leak outside of their routing scope will cause > problems. So ban applications from passing addresses. This has nothing to do with any particular prefix, because it applies to all equally. Routing and access filters are a reality and will not go away. > And the more different ways we have to provide > address stability, the more failure scenarios we're creating. I happen to see if from the glass-half-full perspective and note that we are providing more solution scenarios. > > > > But again, we can solve the local stability problem if there > > > really is a significant use case for it. > > > > So solve the requirements and there will not be a need for other > > approaches. Until then, this filibuster is delaying network > managers > > from deploying IPv6 in a way that will meet their requirements. > > Well it's not clear that such requirements are valid. > Somebody needs to make a convincing case. > > And even if one accepts the need for a separate local > stability solution, this still wouldn't necessarily justify > ambiguous addresses or increased reliance on address selection. Continuing to raise ambiguous addresses is simply creating FUD. The requirements are valid to those that have them, independent of acceptance by the IETF. The network manager will meet the requirements with the tools we provide, even if that means using ones we wish they would not. Our only recourse is to provide alternative tools that meet the requirements. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 06:49:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79Dn9CM011074; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79Dn9W0011073; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79Dn5CM011066 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79DkPV7024843 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79DkJh4018511 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB984387; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:46:18 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:46:18 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BA@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNalRJFRolLQlwFShaJsRslIlpYdgD53oDA From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 13:46:18.0928 (UTC) FILETIME=[9C644B00:01C35E7C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79Dn5CM011067 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I support what Brian stated and the ADs please lets move on here. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brc@zurich.ibm.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:21 AM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: iesg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal > > > Scott Bradner wrote: > > > > fwiw - I fully agree with kre > > (that has happened before in case anyone wondered) > > fwiw, I don't (and I have both agreed and disagreed with kre > and sob in the past). > > I really think this is a distraction. Objectively, the WG is > getting on with the three things that need to be done > (requirements, an alternative proposal, and a draft > deprecation document). To me there was manifestly rough > consensus for this course of action: what else could > "deprecate site local" mean to anyone who had been reading > the mailing list for the previous several months? The details > naturally depend on those three documents, which will have to > be taken through due process. There was certainly not > unanimity, or a detailed proposal, when choosing this course of > action, but that's no ground for overruling the chairs. > > Brian > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - Brian E Carpenter > Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM > > NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 06:50:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79DoQCM011085; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79DoPOg011084; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79DoKCM011077 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79DleV7025023 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79DlVi0025453 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB684B6; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:47:31 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:47:31 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BB@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Thread-Index: AcNalXrH+S1cvsLvTuqwLOuEpm9ZDgAANo3gAPmYJIA= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , "Brian E Carpenter" , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 13:47:31.0293 (UTC) FILETIME=[C78650D0:01C35E7C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79DoMCM011078 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Unfortuneately Michel is 100% correct. This is an issue already I see in real deployment analysis. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:42 AM > To: Brian E Carpenter; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: iesg@ietf.org > Subject: RE: AD response to Site-Local Appeal > > > Brian, > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Personally, I'd advise customers who believe they need > local addresses > > to continue using FEC0 until the addressing architecture is revised > > and products catch up. > > Customers don't like incertitude when designing networks and > will delay IPv6 deployment until this is settled. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 06:52:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79DqWCM011251; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79DqVQH011250; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79DqECM011188 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79DnUUu029344 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79DnPnW009067 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52A5BD52; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:49:24 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:49:24 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BC@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqLlY0f//HYhSSO28GnjZy7nJ5QD1CgMg From: "Bound, Jim" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 13:49:24.0605 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B105AD0:01C35E7D] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79DqFCM011195 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As one who has been here since the beginning and implemented this protocol I agree with you. I do think Bob Hinden has given us a compromise that is acceptable but alas we are not able to move on here as children it seems to me. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd T. Fries [mailto:todd@fries.net] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:38 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: site-local observations from the outside > > > While I do not pretend to be the most versed in all of the > IPv6 related RFC's, I am questioning what the goals of > site-local or a similar replacement would be. > > Either you have link-local addresses, or you have global > routable addresses. > > Any attempt at providing something that is site local > suggests to me that you open the doors wide for something > like NAT, which of course none of us wants. > > There is enough address space in the global table, why can we > not have some sort of free reservation system (the free > tunnel brokers would suggest it is economically feasible) for > sites that want local addresses but do not intend on globally > routing them. > > Should these sites want connectivity to the global internet, > they would then get an allocation from their ISP as necessary. > > I expect I'm missing something, but perhaps not. > -- > Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net > > > Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 > http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 > "..in support of free software solutions." > > Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A > Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt > > (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:03:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E3JCM012319; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79E3JdD012318; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E3ACM012265 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79E0VV7026990 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79E0Pi0028535 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB06B6FB; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:24 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:24 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BD@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Thread-Index: AcNarT1sOI1dQ5JGTKijy/o+M9ct+gD0OJyA From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Bob Hinden" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:00:24.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[94A33500:01C35E7E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79E3BCM012270 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I can support this if there is stronger wording that these addresses NEVER leave the site and stronger words about definition of site multi6 one is still weak. Also complete discouragement of NAT of any kind in the document. Otherwise I keep fighting this and I can rip this drafts assumptions a part but would rather move on. Esp about it protects the network that is the wrong message. It does not if any of these packets leave the site and that is what I want to see stated. These addresses are only going to prevent attacks if they NEVER leave the site. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:14 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > > This is the combined Tony Hain and Fred Templin requirements > document. Many thinks to Tony and Fred for getting this out quickly. > > Bob > > > >To: IETF-Announce: ; > >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:14:30 -0400 > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > > > > Title : Limited Range Addressing Requirements > > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > > Filename : > draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > Pages : 18 > > Date : 2003-8-4 > > > >The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and > local-use unicast > >addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or > >requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > >addressing that is limited to a bounded domain of applicability, or > >range. This memo will discuss requirements for limited range > >addressing. > > > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-l > imitedrang > >e-00.txt > > > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a > message to > >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the > >message. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > > > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > >Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > >In the body type: > > "FILE > >/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > > > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before > the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need > "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different > MIME-compliant mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which > have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local > documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > >Internet-Draft. > >Content-Type: text/plain > >Content-ID: <2003-8-4094157.I-D@ietf.org> > > > >ENCODING mime > >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > > >e-00.txt> -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:03:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E3oCM012457; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79E3kv6012444; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E3ZCM012393 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79E0tV7027091 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79E0oh4022340 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33AFB9F3; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:49 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:00:49 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BE@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Thread-Index: AcNarT1sOI1dQ5JGTKijy/o+M9ct+gD0Vkhw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Bob Hinden" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:00:49.0585 (UTC) FILETIME=[A3580210:01C35E7E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79E3dCM012402 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk It is a good and well written document too. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:14 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > > This is the combined Tony Hain and Fred Templin requirements > document. Many thinks to Tony and Fred for getting this out quickly. > > Bob > > > >To: IETF-Announce: ; > >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:14:30 -0400 > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > > > > Title : Limited Range Addressing Requirements > > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > > Filename : > draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > Pages : 18 > > Date : 2003-8-4 > > > >The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and > local-use unicast > >addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or > >requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > >addressing that is limited to a bounded domain of applicability, or > >range. This memo will discuss requirements for limited range > >addressing. > > > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-l > imitedrang > >e-00.txt > > > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a > message to > >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the > >message. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > > > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > >Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > >In the body type: > > "FILE > >/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt". > > > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before > the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need > "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different > MIME-compliant mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which > have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local > documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > >Internet-Draft. > >Content-Type: text/plain > >Content-ID: <2003-8-4094157.I-D@ietf.org> > > > >ENCODING mime > >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt > > > >e-00.txt> -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:05:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E59CM012711; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79E53lh012707; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79E4nCM012660 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79E29Uu001333 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79E23i0029028 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A155BBA41; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:02:03 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:02:03 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14BF@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6A= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:02:03.0522 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF69E620:01C35E7E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79E4rCM012675 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then all is fine. Thats the bottom line. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:47 PM > To: todd@fries.net; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside > > > Todd, > > > Todd T. Fries wrote: > > Either you have link-local addresses, or you have > > global routable addresses. > > From a transit provider point of view this is true, but not > for the enterprise. There are lots of large networks that > require private addresses and use RFC1918 today. Examples > that have been discussed before are a large cruise ship and > utility companies. Part of the requirements is that private > addresses must not be routed on the public Internet. > > > > Any attempt at providing something that is site local > suggests to me > > that you open the doors wide for something like NAT, which > of course > > none of us wants. > > There is some truth to this, but in the end avoiding NAT will > not be achieved by not providing site-local addresses, as > they are not required per say; people that need them will > simply hijack an unused block in the middle of nowhere in the > IPv6 address space, like they did for IPv4 pre > RFC1597/RFC1918. A good hijack candidate is 2002:RFC:1918, > for example. The only way to avoid NAT is to provide what NAT > does, which is portable, globally unique, globally routable > addresses, which we don't have today. > > > > There is enough address space in the global table, > > Wrong. There is enough address space today, but the global > routing table cannot handle billions of entries, at least not > with BGP4+. It's not a matter of memory, it's a matter of stability. > > > > why can we not have some sort of free reservation system > > (the free tunnel brokers would suggest it is economically > > feasible) for sites that want local addresses but do not intend on > > globally routing them. > > jj has proposed something like this not too long ago. A draft soon? > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:21:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ELaCM014811; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79ELZsA014802; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ELQCM014742 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EIjV7000835 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EIe1i010233 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:18:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCC16B5; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:18:39 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:18:39 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C0@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNatE2Cq73r4OXDRjmwgbVZV7YbIgDzHp1w From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Bob Hinden" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:18:39.0547 (UTC) FILETIME=[211740B0:01C35E81] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79ELQCM014746 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific > alternative to > site-local addresses draft > > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF) Why do we need both of these? We just need the hinden work. The templin/hain work could be INFO or BCP with some fixing? Is that the thought? > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the > deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an > alternative. I will support this but we need to do it now and expediently. thanks /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:25:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EP4CM015133; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79EP44p015132; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EP1CM015124 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EMLUu005237 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EMF68016622 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:22:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432E8B995; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:22:15 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:22:14 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNautcFIuBUNNyGTdW1P0PgklB51ADxm5Vg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Ralph Droms" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:22:15.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[A19B7DA0:01C35E81] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79EP1CM015125 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk To support Ralph we do have a responsibility here for those deploying "production Ipv6 now" (we are now not talking just tests) so I have another suggestion from Ralp's mail. If we do not have an agreed to alternative by next IETF Nov 03 we must move to A. It is unacceptable to permit users to use site-local and I believe we do have consensus completely site-locals must be deprecated and am convinced that those appealing will not win in the WG, with the Chairs, or the IESG. We have consensus in the IETF not just the WG that these must be deprecated. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Ralph Droms [mailto:rdroms@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:54 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > My understanding of the WG discussion is that deprecation of > site-local > addresses was discussed and consensus was reached independent of the > availability of any alternative solution. Therefore, based on what I > understand to be WG consensus, A is the appropriate way to proceed. > > That's not to say the WG can't change its collective > consensus at this > point. But I don't think the previous discussion of > deprecation was in any > way dependent on devising an alternative solution. > > - Ralph > > At 11:06 AM 8/4/2003 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should > proceed. > >I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > >alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This > would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > >addresses. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:27:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ERMCM015421; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79ERMpr015418; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ERCCM015357 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EOVV7002067 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EOP68016954 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:24:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80037B995; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:24:25 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:24:25 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C2@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNatBp93RjyESTsTfu8enVJo9LGHAABwx5AAPGhTGA= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , "Bob Hinden" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:24:25.0388 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF3A66C0:01C35E81] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79ERCCM015358 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Implementing is a no brainer for hosts, PDAs, routers etc. We could get this done with a patches for now and updated releases in 6 months from historical code changes I have seen done across the board for IPV6 since 1995. Users can begin to use them though that breaks the hinden req to hear RAs with new option. But they will use them. SLs are not going to be used in any form. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:17 PM > To: Bob Hinden; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > Bob, > > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > Please respond to the list with your preference > > I would prefer C. "Rough consensus and running code". > Possibly I could live with B, but it greatly depends on how > difficult the new solution is to implement. If everyone > agrees that implementing the new solution is a no-brainer, > then B would be fine. > > However, if the new solution requires significant coding that > many people don't feel too good about it, C is required. We > don't want to deprecate for a solution that looked good on > paper but proved impossible to implement and be left with zip. > > I have trouble understanding why the issues that applied to > site-locals would not apply as well to the new solution until > I have seen the new solution. > > IMHO the choice between B and C is premature until we have a > clearer view of the alternatives. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:28:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ESeCM015665; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79ESdPn015663; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79ESTCM015641 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EPnUu005804 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EPhi0005511 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD76C869D; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:25:43 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:25:43 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C3@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNaw4rwQLroNmjcTgWh6G4GMDZXoQDvnaNg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Dan Lanciani" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:25:43.0616 (UTC) FILETIME=[1DDB0C00:01C35E82] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79ESVCM015642 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The hinden draft has no impact because of "scoping" at all technically for implementation that was the point. So the problem is far simpler and why it is good solution. What scoping issue do you see? /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Lanciani [mailto:ipng-incoming@danlan.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:52 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > |C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > |standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing a > |deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > |alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > |addresses. > | > |Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > |publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > | > |Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > |alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I > outlined. I > |hope that many of you will respond. > > I vote for C. Given the disagreement on the "legitimate" > uses of site local addresses (and scoped addressing in > general) it will be difficult to be sure that a replacement > actually solves all the problems that everyone concerned > expected site-locals to solve, and does so in a way that is > not prohibitively difficult/expensive to deploy. > > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:33:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EXHCM016177; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79EXHIw016176; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EX3CM016093 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EUMV7003390 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EUGD1025935 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:30:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517AC75AC; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:30:15 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:30:14 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C4@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNazvormbrcFBD+ScaRIs9kepCQxQDs0B3g From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Alain Durand" , "Bob Hinden" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:30:15.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFA9C6C0:01C35E82] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79EX3CM016094 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain, I see your point but this is political now. Meaning several things. One some IMO have an agenda and strategy for the market with SLs or like addresses they are not going to let go here. Two some simply believe that they are important to the architecture. Three some believe link-locals and globals are enough (I am in this camp). Four some don't want to risk any NAT potential (I am also in this camp). I think we have this known. 1. Consensus is SLs are not going to achieve consensus. 2. hinden draft works IMO? What don't you like about hinden draft "idea"? Doing what you ask will further delay this very important time-to-market decision in the IETF IPv6 WG. We do not have time now for analysis by paralysis. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Alain Durand [mailto:Alain.Durand@Sun.COM] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:12 PM > To: Bob Hinden > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; gih@telstra.net > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended > to directly > > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get > feedback on how > > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move > forward on this > > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > > , a specific > alternative > > to site-local addresses draft > > (accepted as a working > > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft > describing > > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed > products. > > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any > form, but I > > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > > reasonable alternative. > > I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and is > mentioned in > the minutes, > the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it is > based on a > flawed logic. > > We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg > realized that > there were > a number of significant issues that outweighed the reported > benefits, so > there > is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. > > Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were > having a role that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated > addresses. Fine again. > > Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to > explain why we need 'local' addresses. If you read it > carefully, and as acknowledged by one > of its main > author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not > all) would be > fulfilled > by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is nothing > in it that explain why we need 'local range' addresses. The > essence of those requirements is in the need for stable > addresses that are independent from ISPs. > > So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it is > the same > issue) > to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so without > clearly understanding the impact of those "ranged" addresses > on the architecture and the current implementation is a > flawed process. In particular, we need to understand the > impact on address selection, and the layer violation that > would be created by coupling DNS views & > routing. > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > addresses with different ranges. > > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do > with getting > addresses > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6 addresses > are plentiful, > we should have easy access to them! > > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a non > issue for me. > > - Alain. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:41:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EfPCM017676; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79EfPWf017675; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EfLCM017665 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EcfV7005716 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EcZD1027298 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:38:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2394CBCF8; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:38:35 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C35E83.E9524926" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:38:34 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C5@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0f45aUMNuA0hSpyZUfnmZMrsqADsNR5A From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michael Thomas" , "Alain Durand" Cc: "Bob Hinden" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:38:35.0006 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9A3D1E0:01C35E83] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35E83.E9524926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, So you believe a disconnected network can simply use globals within a site when no routers are present? Note I do. But I don't want link-local used on multihomed or multisegment nodes as it won't work and never will. See attached diagram. Either we tell all use globals or we define some type of PI. But what we cannot do is discuss it for the next year leaving the market in limbo?=20 I think that is why option A may be my vote if I keep seeing no consensus to move with the two specs? from templin/hain spec: Link-local addresses in IPv6: "are designed to be used for addressing on a single link for purposes such as automatic address configuration, neighbor discovery, or when no routers are present" ([RFC3513], section 2.5.6). By definition, link-local addressing has a single link range of operation and will not meet this requirement. This is so true in the document attached (pdf) duplicate link-locals across L1 and L2 cause a real problem even if getaddinfo() interface % command line option is used and creates security problem too. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Thomas [mailto:mat@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:39 PM > To: Alain Durand > Cc: Bob Hinden; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; gih@telstra.net > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >=20 >=20 >=20 > FWIW, I wasn't there but I agree with Alain. I've > never seen any compelling evidence that scope qua > scope is what people actually need. And scope > brings any number of architectural questions to > the fore. I'd be much, much more comfortable > having an up/down pronouncement on whether PI > addressing is feasible before we march down this > road. There are very wide implications of both and > I think there's a tremendous amount of discomfort > with the possibility that scope will result in a > back door for NAT's to invade ipv6. I don't think > that anybody wants that. Before we head that > direction, I'd like to see PI addressing, in an > RFC preferrably, pronounced a dead end. >=20 > Mike >=20 > Alain Durand writes: > >=20 > >=20 > > Bob Hinden wrote: > >=20 > > > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > > > > I think the working group has been making good progress=20 > on replacing=20 > > > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from=20 > the working=20 > > > group on how we should move forward. This is not=20 > intended to directly=20 > > > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to=20 > > > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get=20 > feedback on how=20 > > > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move=20 > forward on this=20 > > > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > > > > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document=20 > > > , a=20 > specific alternative=20 > > > to site-local addresses draft=20 > > > (accepted=20 > as a working=20 > > > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a=20 > draft describing=20 > > > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing=20 > the formal=20 > > > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at=20 > the Vienna=20 > > > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed=20 > through the=20 > > > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls=20 > and review. > > > > I think legitimate questions have been=20 > raised about how the working=20 > > > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses=20 > given their=20 > > > maturity in the current specifications and use in=20 > deployed products. =20 > > > Specifically should they be deprecated independently=20 > from having an=20 > > > alternative solution available, at the same time an=20 > alternative is=20 > > > available, or sometime after an alternative is=20 > available. A forth=20 > > > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in=20 > any form, but I=20 > > > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a=20 > > > reasonable alternative.=20 > >=20 > > I have a real problem here. As I commented in Vienna and=20 > is mentioned in=20 > > the minutes, > > the entire process this wg is going through is wrong as it=20 > is based on a=20 > > flawed logic. > >=20 > > We had site local addresses. After lengthy debates, the wg=20 > realized that=20 > > there were > > a number of significant issues that outweighed the=20 > reported benefits, so=20 > > there > > is an attempt to deprecate them. Until now, fine. > >=20 > > Now, some people convinced the wg that SL addresses were=20 > having a role > that is not fulfilled by provider aggregated=20 > addresses. Fine again. >=20 > > Then, we have a 'requirement' document that pretend to=20 > explain why we need > 'local' addresses. If you read it=20 > carefully, and as acknowledged by one=20 > > of its main > > author in Vienna, almost all of those requirements (if not=20 > all) would be=20 > > fulfilled > > by provider independent addresses. Actually, there is=20 > nothing in it that > explain why we need 'local range'=20 > addresses. The essence of those > requirements is in the=20 > need for stable addresses that are > independent from ISPs. >=20 > > So using this document (I checked the new combined one, it=20 > is the same=20 > > issue) > > to justify introducing "local" addresses and doing so=20 > without clearly > understanding the impact of those "ranged"=20 > addresses on the architecture > and the current=20 > implementation is a flawed process. > In particular, we need=20 > to understand the impact on address selection, > and the=20 > layer violation that would be created by coupling DNS views &=20 > > routing. > >=20 > > IMHO, what need to happen is the following: > >=20 > > -1. Make an in-depth study of the consequences of introducing > > addresses with different ranges. > >=20 > > -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do=20 > with getting=20 > > addresses > > than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be > > done working with the registries. It might be a cheaper path > > than changing the protocols. After all, IPv6=20 > addresses are plentiful, > > we should have easy access to them! > >=20 > > What to do with Site Local addresses in the meantime is a=20 > non issue for me. >=20 > > - Alain. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to=20 > majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C35E83.E9524926 Content-Type: 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[129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EgnCM017763 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79Ee9V7006024 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79Ee31i016234 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:40:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79940BA74; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:40:03 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:40:02 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C6@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNazP2ovDF8qFQ2Raq0ZgwzyeCRqwAA120QAOzs2YA= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , "Jordi Palet Martinez" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:40:03.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E50C650:01C35E84] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79EgnCM017764 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, But you miss the point in logic that we do not want SLs as currently defined and major bug in IPv6. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:14 PM > To: Jordi Palet Martinez; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > Jordi, > > > Jordi wrote: > > I see your point, but my feeling is that we can only go to the last > > step (of the IETF process) IF it make sense (running code, > and then it > > means no-brainer), that means that B is fine, but for the > same reason, > > I can live with C (in theory, B and C are then the same > solution) ;-). > > I see your point too; however, > > The difference between B and C is: > - with B, if the solution proves impossible to develop, we > have a failure. > - with C, if the solution proves possible to develop, we have > wasted time. > > As many things, it's a matter of risk management, speed with > a risk or slowness without one. The reason I like C better is > because I have the feeling that if there was a no-brainer > solution that would make B worth the risk someone would have > invented it a long time ago. If we were not able to fix > site-locals I wonder where the silver bullet to replace them is. > > As Tony pointed out, design engineers for large networks do > not design on vaporware. If I can't simulate a solution on a > 20-router lab, it ain't going in my network design and I > stick with site-locals. Which also means that once the design > goes to large-scale deployment there is no way back for at > least 5 years, which in turn means that router vendor "C" > (yes, the one you are thinking about) is going to keep > supporting site-locals because they want to keep my business. > > The question is, do we want to define standards or to we want > to encourage the development of proprietary standards? For > the record, I use ISL, EIGRP and HSRP; I won't have a problem > using vendor "C" site-locals. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:48:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79Em7CM018198; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79Em7eD018197; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79Em3CM018187 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EjNUu009832 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EjInW024614 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D822BD48; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:45:16 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:45:15 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C7@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNeaxpc7Bgf56hHR+KK5fXtnqSeyAAGbFvg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Lars Erik Gullerud" , "Bob Hinden" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:45:16.0365 (UTC) FILETIME=[D8DE57D0:01C35E84] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79Em4CM018188 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Exactly. SLs are dead maybe the only alternative is A. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Lars Erik Gullerud [mailto:lerik@nolink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:03 AM > To: Bob Hinden > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 20:06, Bob Hinden wrote: > > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we > should proceed. > > I > > think the choices are: > > I'd like to see A happen. Going for B, and even worse C, will > just prolong the current state of uncertainty where a lot of > people have heard that site-locals might be deprecated, but > are uncertain as to whether they need to concern themselves > with support for them or not in ongoing development etc. > > Let's just get rid of the darn things and move on - please. > > /leg > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 07:52:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EqaCM019021; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79EqaI4019019; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79EqVCM019009 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79EniV7007851 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EncD1028875 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 08:49:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD66BD89; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:49:38 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:49:37 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C8@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Thread-Index: AcNeB9raTcvpljflQ9KpvPuDH6c9MAAfUyXg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Tony Hain" , "Keith Moore" Cc: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2003 14:49:38.0131 (UTC) FILETIME=[74E4AA30:01C35E85] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79EqWCM019010 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, simply from these 300+ mails I just read and selected which to respond to SLs are simply not baked and not good for the market to use them. Putting on deployment hat and all this discussion from the most knowledgeable people on this issue here SLs must die and new pheonix is required. But to tell a customer to use these is not honorable at this point. My input now as individual person when asked is DO NOT USE SLs at ALL. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Hain [mailto:alh-ietf@tndh.net] > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 7:39 PM > To: 'Keith Moore' > Cc: lear@cisco.com; ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: > apps people? ) > > > Keith Moore wrote: > > ... > > I think the requirement is better stated that apps (not just > > local apps) continue to operate independent of any normal > > address change events, whether or not at the SP edge. > > Nice goal, but requires changes to transport to pull it off. > The point is to deliver service long before that will happen. > > > > > > I don't understand the point of changing the scenario. > > > > I don't understand the point of stating the scenario in > > narrow terms in order to argue for a problematic solution > > with limited applicability. > > To bound the problem space to something that can be > accomplished without changes to transport. Yes it has limited > applicability, but that is not a failure, and the problems > only arise when the mechanism is used outside the scenario. > For those cases, there are other mechanisms. > > > ... > > > I never said delay working on alternatives. > > > > No, but your insistence on SL is having that effect. > > Clearly you are not reading the documents or the mail > carefully. I am not insisting on SL. The Hinden draft is not > SL, and meets the requirements that have been raised for > limited-range. > > > > > > The problems you have > > > raised in the past stem from multi-homing, so stop claiming that a > > > limited range prefix causes them. > > > > I've raised lots of problems regarding scoped addresses, only > > some of which have to do with multi-homing. Since scoped > > addresses are being used to justify forcing hosts and apps to > > rely on address selection (with its inherent > > problems) to a much greater degree than would otherwise be > > necessary, it makes sense to focus attention on the dubious > > assumptions behind scoped addresses. > > From my recollection, the ones that are not due to > multi-homing are simply wishes that filtering in the network > would go away. > > > > > > > However if you can identify a significant class of apps that > > > > really is inherently local and really has a greater need for > > > > address stability than other apps, I can propose a solution to > > > > this problem with essentially no impact to apps > (especially those > > > > that don't need this extra stability), with small > impact to hosts > > > > and routers, and which doesn't impose the notion of a single > > > > "local" scope either. The reason I haven't proposed > this yet is > > > > because IMHO it doesn't solve the real problem (we need a > > > > reasonable degree of address stability for ALL apps), it adds > > > > complexity that would be unnecessary if the real problem were > > > > solved, and because it would distract energy from > efforts to solve > > > > the real problem. > > > > > > Which is the ultimate failure here, there is no single > > 'real problem'. > > > > True enough - it's just a question on how large you want to > > draw the circle. > > The trick is to draw the circle in such a way that the > > solutions are inexpensive and work well. Usually this > > happens somewhere near (though not precisely at) a > complexity minimum. > > Again you are looking for a single solution ('the circle'). > There are multiple options here and they solve different > problem sets. If we really were forced to come up with a > single solution, we will be back at nat as the lowest common > denominator. > > > > > > The > > > limited-range document describes a set of requirements (read that: > > > real problems), and there are probably more. In keeping, > > there is no > > > single 'real solution'. Manual configured filtering of PA > meets one > > > set of needs, auto-configuration of limited range prefixes meets > > > another set of needs, PI meets yet another set of needs, > and these > > > sets of needs all overlap in different ways. Rather than > > persist with > > > FUD to prevent one set of problems from being solved, we > > need to get > > > on with defining and deploying the mechansims to solve > each of them. > > > > No, it doesn't follow. What you suggest would be reasonable > > if the various > > mechanisms were not too costly, did not conflict with one > > another, and did not preclude development of better solutions. > > Nothing here conflicts with or prevents other solutions. The > fact that a limited range address space exists and is used in > some networks does not at all impact an individual network > manager from using manual configuration from a different > prefix space. If a PI approach existed, it would not preclude > use (or meet the need) of another space that is known to be > excluded from the global routing tables. The only thing that > is preventing development of 'better' solutions is spending > time trying to kill ones that are achievable in realistic > timeframes. If by some magic a killer solution to all the > problems showed up, it would easily push the complexity of > multiple solutions out of the market. We can't be sitting > around waiting until the magic happens. > > > > > But again, we can solve the local stability problem if there > > really is a significant use case for it. > > So solve the requirements and there will not be a need for > other approaches. Until then, this filibuster is delaying > network managers from deploying IPv6 in a way that will meet > their requirements. > > Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 10:06:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79H6sCM002720; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79H6sAm002719; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79H6pCM002712 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79H4AV7002811 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79H44h4014126 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:04:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h79H2wg16694; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:02:59 +0300 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:02:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tony Hain cc: "'Mans Nilsson'" , , Subject: RE: apps people? In-Reply-To: <063501c35dc9$c9d70ef0$70144104@eagleswings> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Tony Hain wrote: > Pekka Savola wrote: > > So, what exactly is wrong with the Bellovin/Zill Router > > Advertisement option proposals which make it very easy for > > normally local-only appliances to restrict the nodes they > > allow access from? > > For the function it performs, nothing. What it lacks is a prefix space to > advertise that is not in any way associated with an aggregate that is being > announced in global routing. Fortunately that prefix space is available > using the Hinden draft. Why exactly is advertising the aggregate a problem? The nodes will filter out those sources they are auto-configured not to speak to before even seeing any maliscious packets. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 12:02:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79J23CM014154; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79J23ub014153; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79J20CM014146 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79IxKV7019937 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79IxDD1005845 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11142; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:59:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308091859.OAA11142@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Bound, Jim" wrote: |The hinden draft has no impact because of "scoping" at all technically |for implementation that was the point. So the problem is far simpler |and why it is good solution. | |What scoping issue do you see? I didn't say I see a "scoping issue." I see an issue with removing site-locals without first providing a replacement that offers the same (or greater) capabilities. This is particularly important because there is no clear agreement on what capabilities site-locals currently offer. Many site-local detractors argue that site-locals don't provide any "legitimate" capabilities at all, presumably because scoped addressing is not itself "legitimate." If site-locals are removed before we see their replacement, I have every expectation that some folks will argue (loudly) that the correct replacement is no replacement. In the less extreme case, it seems that subtle combinations of the random restrictions being suggested for replacements may thwart one or more of the uses that I expected for site-locals. Finally, I'm concerned that any solution might be seen as necessary only for the mythical "enterprise" and thus be cost- prohibitive for the small business and home user. We really need so see the replacement first... Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com |/jim | |> -----Original Message----- |> From: Dan Lanciani [mailto:ipng-incoming@danlan.com] |> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:52 PM |> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com |> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing |> |> |> |C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, |> |standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean |> not advancing a |> |deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the |> |alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over |> Site-Local |> |addresses. |> | |> |Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means |> |publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. |> | |> |Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an |> |alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I |> outlined. I |> |hope that many of you will respond. |> |> I vote for C. Given the disagreement on the "legitimate" |> uses of site local addresses (and scoped addressing in |> general) it will be difficult to be sure that a replacement |> actually solves all the problems that everyone concerned |> expected site-locals to solve, and does so in a way that is |> not prohibitively difficult/expensive to deploy. |> |> Dan Lanciani |> ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 12:14:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79JEhCM015466; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79JEhJO015465; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79JEdCM015458 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79JBxUu024208 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79JBsnW007709 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:11:53 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6AACsTKsA== From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79JEeCM015459 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, > Jim Bound wrote: > If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then all > is fine. Thats the bottom line. I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but making sure that they can't. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 12:56:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79JufCM019770; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h79Jufpv019769; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h79JucCM019762 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h79JrwUu029918 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79Jrqi0003238 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:53:52 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0f45aUMNuA0hSpyZUfnmZMrsqADsNR5AAAs1QIA= From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h79JucCM019763 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, > Jim Bound wrote: > But what we cannot do is discuss it for the > next year leaving the market in limbo? The reason the market is in limbo in the first place is deprecation without a replacement. If the market did not need SLs it would not have gone in limbo over the issue. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 19:39:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2dACM021279; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A2dAN7021278; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2d6CM021271 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A2aQUu003706 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A2aLD1014422 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:36:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DFB704; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:36:20 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:36:20 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14D7@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6AACsTKsAAPku5w From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2003 02:36:20.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EB4A480:01C35EE8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7A2d7CM021272 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Even better yes. They "can't". /jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] >Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:12 PM >To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside > > >Jim, > >> Jim Bound wrote: >> If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then all >> is fine. Thats the bottom line. > >I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but making >sure that they can't. > >Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 19:43:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2hlCM021775; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A2hlKU021774; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2hhCM021767 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A2exUu004757 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A2esnW018459 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09CBB81D; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:40:49 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:40:49 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14D8@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNeqoaYSP4ouM7cRPi+plML59IFKAAPbymw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Dan Lanciani" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2003 02:40:49.0660 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF1B43C0:01C35EE8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7A2hiCM021768 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk OK thanks. I believe we have a solution all of us should be able to live with here in hinden and hain/templin works. If we all really just make sure they are technically accurate in Aug/Sept have discussion to move them forward we can wrap them up at Minneapolis (why are we going to such a cold place in November geeezzzzzzzzzzzz) we can annouce we figured it out and move forward. Then we can deprecate SLs safely. My input to all of you. SLs are not even close to the usefulness of the hinden + hain/templin work. This stuff will actually be useful and SLs are not currently. To me as implementor and working with one of the largest users/enterprise in the world to determine how to deploy Ipv6 this is going to work. /jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Dan Lanciani [mailto:ipng-incoming@danlan.com] >Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 2:59 PM >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > >"Bound, Jim" wrote: > >|The hinden draft has no impact because of "scoping" at all >technically >|for implementation that was the point. So the problem is far simpler >|and why it is good solution. >| >|What scoping issue do you see? > >I didn't say I see a "scoping issue." I see an issue with >removing site-locals without first providing a replacement >that offers the same (or greater) capabilities. This is >particularly important because there is no clear agreement on >what capabilities site-locals currently offer. Many site-local >detractors argue that site-locals don't provide any >"legitimate" capabilities at all, presumably because scoped >addressing is not itself "legitimate." If site-locals are >removed before we see their replacement, I have every >expectation that some folks will argue >(loudly) that the correct replacement is no replacement. In >the less extreme case, it seems that subtle combinations of >the random restrictions being suggested for replacements may >thwart one or more of the uses that I expected for >site-locals. Finally, I'm concerned that any solution might >be seen as necessary only for the mythical "enterprise" and >thus be cost- prohibitive for the small business and home >user. We really need so see the replacement first... > > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com > >|/jim >| >|> -----Original Message----- >|> From: Dan Lanciani [mailto:ipng-incoming@danlan.com] >|> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:52 PM >|> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >|> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >|> >|> >|> |C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >|> |standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean >|> not advancing a >|> |deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >|> |alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over >|> Site-Local >|> |addresses. >|> | >|> |Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >|> |publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. >|> | >|> |Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >|> |alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I >|> outlined. I >|> |hope that many of you will respond. >|> >|> I vote for C. Given the disagreement on the "legitimate" >|> uses of site local addresses (and scoped addressing in >|> general) it will be difficult to be sure that a replacement >|> actually solves all the problems that everyone concerned >|> expected site-locals to solve, and does so in a way that is >|> not prohibitively difficult/expensive to deploy. >|> >|> Dan Lanciani >|> ddl@danlan.*com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 9 19:44:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2iZCM021792; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A2iYts021791; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A2iRCM021783 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A2fgUu004940 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A2fb68013051 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:41:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03272C7BA; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:41:36 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:41:35 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14D9@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0f45aUMNuA0hSpyZUfnmZMrsqADsNR5AAAs1QIAADkskYA== From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2003 02:41:36.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB3B6DF0:01C35EE8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7A2iUCM021785 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Agreed. But we had a bug and a big one. I think we still have one with link-locals too :--) /jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] >Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:54 PM >To: Bound, Jim >Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > >Jim, > >> Jim Bound wrote: >> But what we cannot do is discuss it for the >> next year leaving the market in limbo? > >The reason the market is in limbo in the first place is >deprecation without a replacement. If the market did not need >SLs it would not have gone in limbo over the issue. > >Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 00:17:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A7HnCM020632; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A7Hn13020631; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A7HkCM020624 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A7F5V7000654 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A7Ew1i026547 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:14:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (dhcp55.potaroo.net [203.10.60.55]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7A7EaRc076423; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:14:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030810163351.00b3ff18@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:12:45 +1000 To: "Bound, Jim" , "Alain Durand" , "Bob Hinden" From: Geoff Huston Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C4@tayexc13.americas .cpqcorp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 10:30 AM 9/08/2003 -0400, Bound, Jim wrote: >I think we have this known. > >1. Consensus is SLs are not going to achieve consensus. >2. hinden draft works IMO? > >What don't you like about hinden draft "idea"? Well - to answer this question of Jims, I'm not sure it (the Hinden/Haberman draft) is finished yet - to my mind there are some further considerations that are relevant here. I've prepared a commentary on the proposal as an Internet draft. The draft will be published this week as draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt I've also put a copy online at: http://www.potaroo.net/papers/2003/draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YYCM004107; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9YX9j004106; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YPCM004078 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9ViV7012464 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9Vc68023939 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:31:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9Vb9e117652 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:37 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VafH267054 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:37 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47704 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:34 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3607BC.4CDA1A7A@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:52:12 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, My bottom line on this, I think, is that this version of scope has very limited use - it doesn't deal with the situations that my services colleagues see every day, and it is not something that middleware can make any use of. At most, it allows for some defaults in firewall rules and address selection rules, but those can be set up on well-known prefixes just as easily as on a scope value. Brian Michel Py wrote: > > On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > > I think it does, because it makes "less than global" ambiguous. > > Does it mean "my intranet", "my intranet plus a VPN to company > > X", "a VPN to company X but not my intranet", "my VPNs to > > companies X and Y plus a secure subset of my intranet", or a > > combinatorial number of similar choices? > > I would be open to accept the idea that it means "my intranet" and that > we would need to use global addresses for the rest of the scenarios you > mentioned. It's not as flexible as > it-could-be-if-we-lived-in-a-perfect-world, but will address the bulk of > the needs. > > Michel. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YoCM004133; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9YhkW004124; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YdCM004112 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9VvUu015459 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9Vp68023975 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:31:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9Vp7o105158 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:51 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VoHu241648 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:50 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20790 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:49 +0200 Message-ID: <3F36103E.CC5707A@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:28:30 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'IPv6'" Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7A9YdCM004115 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk And the fact is that enterprise network managers are very happy to have a class of addresses that cannot be globally routed and are filtered by default as bogons by all ISPs. So they just love RFC 1918 addresses for that, and hate them for their ambiguity (since that creates a mess when they have to be routed anyway, e.g. on VPNs). The main point of this draft, as far as I'm concerned, is to convey this requirement, which isn't met either by PA prefixes or the old SL prefix. Brian Patrik Fältström wrote: > > On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 19:14 Europe/Stockholm, Tony Hain wrote: > > >> In IPv6 world, real addresses can and should be used. > > > > Real or imaginary are perspectives of the onlooker. I suspect you > > intended > > 'globally routed'. > > Yes, sorry. As I only work in this space (below transport) with > scuba-gear on, I often make mistakes when selecting crisp wording. > > paf > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YkCM004132; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9Yh9O004123; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YVCM004099 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9VoUu015441 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9Vi1i005289 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9Vg9e034308 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:42 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VgHu154762 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:43 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47710 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:41 +0200 Message-ID: <3F360CF7.A68B2CC5@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:14:31 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward....]] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> <3F320B51.30303@it.su.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif, I wish I could give you such a reference. In my mind it is a logical path that started with RFC 1900 and RFC 2101, parts of RFC 2775 and RFC 2956, parts of draft-irtf-nsrg-report-09.txt, and multiple discussions on multi6, ipng and other lists over the years, and of course what we have been told about operational practice. Yes, it would be good to write it up. Brian Leif Johansson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > > >around for 6 years at least. We know what we can do with today's > >routing mechanisms, today's renumbering mechanisms, and today's > >security mechanisms, and that leads *directly* to the requirements > >in the Hain/Templin draft, and IMHO *directly* to the solution in > >the Hinden/Haberman draft. > > > > > > > Could you give a reference to some text which describes this reasoning in > more detail? I confess that I don't see the connections as clearly as > you do. > > To me Michael has presented some pretty good points and even if you are > right about the logical inevitability of the Hain/Templin draft it could imo > benefit from a bit more stringency. > > Cheers Leif -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YsCM004135; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9Yk85004131; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YcCM004110 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9VuV7012500 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9Vnh4014698 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:31:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9Vm7o233932 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:48 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VmHu154770 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:48 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA53948 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:45 +0200 Message-ID: <3F360DC7.421B988@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:17:59 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> <1060353516.692.57.camel@hades> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mika, Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > On Fri, 2003-08-08 at 14:52, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > If they do that, they will have ignored the health warnings > > we will put on the RFC. > > Seeing as a good many of those networks will be residential, some of > those network managers very probably will not know about any health > warnings (having bought the zero configuration home gateway box and WLAN > base station from Wall Mart). What I wanted to point out, though, is > that network merging might not be the most common collision scenario by > a fair margin. > > I would prefer it if the use of semi-unique local scope addresses were > restricted to non-connected networks. For any connected network you can > assume that the network manager is able go to some registry website and > grab a guaranteed unique prefix. Ideally, yes. But that doesn't solve all the real world problems - see the Hain/Templin draft. Brian > > MikaL > > > Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > > The "application" is wireless connectivity to network XYZ, where the > > > network manager of network XYZ controls the choise of the address space > > > used. Multi-access basically stands for simultaneous access to multiple > > > different networks, possibly under different administration. I.e., the > > > terminal is effectively a host participating in multiple sites at the > > > same time. Since we can't control the network managers, we simply have > > > to assume that some of them will choose to use limited range addressing. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YdCM004113; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9YakV004109; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YRCM004085 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9VkV7012468 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9Ve1i005267 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:31:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9VdR8077934 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:39 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VcfH291202 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:39 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47706 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3608E4.D506539D@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:57:08 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward....]] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> <3F328EBC.9080200@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward > >changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. > > > If apps could have dealt with those addresses the same way that they > deal with > regular global unicast address, this would be true. > I'm affraid you're overlooking the impact on address selection here. Yes, certainly the default address selection rules would have to be adapted. I don't see that as very tricky though. The tricky case is when the default rules aren't suitable, but that isn't new. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 02:34:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YdCM004116; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7A9YcmS004111; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7A9YTCM004092 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7A9VmUu015433 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7A9VgnW001589 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7A9Ve9e099114 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:40 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7A9VefH268676 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:41 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com ([9.145.229.160]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47708 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:39 +0200 Message-ID: <3F360AFA.73F795E6@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:06:02 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> <16178.31286.837300.952142@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter writes: > > Michael, > > > > Sorry, but I think you are dead wrong, and you are moving us backward > > and risking another year or two of wasted time. > > > > There is nothing new in this whole argument. As I pointed out > > in the IAB architecture session in Vienna, these issues have been > > around for 6 years at least. We know what we can do with today's > > routing mechanisms, today's renumbering mechanisms, and today's > > security mechanisms, and that leads *directly* to the requirements > > in the Hain/Templin draft, and IMHO *directly* to the solution in > > the Hinden/Haberman draft. > > Which leads *directly* to NAT's at "local" > boundaries and /48's in the DFZ. As has been said by various people, all this is somewhat orthogonal to whether NAT's appear. If we provide a) unambiguous provider-independent prefixes b) good mechanisms for running with these *in parallel* with routeable provider prefixes c) site multihoming d) renumbering tools we'll have done about all we can do, I believe, to make NAT unnecessary and more painful than the alternative. But as usual, it's not the IETF that decides what gets sold and used. > > And Fred's draft really shows how little we know > about renumbering in the real world. > > > I think we are way past the point in history where it is fruitful to > > make the sort of free-space wish-the-world-was-different analysis > > you are advocating. Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward > > changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. > > I'm having a very difficult time reconciling what > you're saying here with your "Let's abolish" post. Why? My point about the existing notion of scope is that it is not useful, so we can drop it. > It's almost like you're saying we should do > nothing at all. While nothing is often better than > a bad something, in this case there's shipping > product to fill the vacuum: NAT's. And they are > well understood given their v4 deployment. Is that > what you're ceding? No. I'm very frustrated at how slowly all this has developed, but we should certainly get a) through d) above done. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 07:39:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AEdpCM005966; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AEdp79005965; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AEdlCM005958 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AEb8V7022581 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AEb168012242 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:37:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.88]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7AFYM6D003424 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:34:22 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:40:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > The probability of a collision using random choice is not a paradox. Its > > a simple calculation, using the formula as given in the document. > > Well, the birthday paradox isn't really a paradox either. > > > > The observation is that even though the /8 space contains > > 1.1 trillion entries, there is a greater than 0.5 probability that there will > > be a clash after some 1.2 million draws. Normally this would not matter in the > > slightest, BUT the proposal also notes a potential to use these addresses > > in the context of end point identifiers, and in such a case there is > > a strict requirement for uniqueness, and my observation is that self-driven > > random choice is inadequate. Its not a paradox risk. Its just the underlying > > mathematics of random draw probabilities. > Actually, I believe we do not have a birthday paradox issue in this case. The birthday paradox would exist only if ALL 1.2 million self-drawn prefixes would see each other. However, in our scenario, the merging of two enterprises, only the two local prefixes may collide with each other. They can not collide with the other 1.2 million or any other number of prefixes out there. Thus, the probability remains 2^-40. Regards, -- Nir Arad -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 08:34:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AFYwCM011691; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AFYv7o011690; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AFYsCM011679 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AFWEV7003349 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AFW7i0019613 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7AFWLbR008288; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:32:22 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7AFWKFY008287; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:32:20 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Mika Liljeberg To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F360DC7.421B988@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> <1060353516.692.57.camel@hades> <3F360DC7.421B988@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1060529540.5013.13.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 10 Aug 2003 18:32:20 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 12:17, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I would prefer it if the use of semi-unique local scope addresses were > > restricted to non-connected networks. For any connected network you can > > assume that the network manager is able go to some registry website and > > grab a guaranteed unique prefix. > > Ideally, yes. But that doesn't solve all the real world problems - see > the Hain/Templin draft. Which requirement are you referring to? I don't see any requirement for (even slightly) ambiguous addresses, aside from the case where it is, for whatever reason, not possible to quickly acquire a guaranteed unique limited range address from a central registry. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 08:48:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AFmFCM012825; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AFmFtx012824; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AFmCCM012816 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AFjWUu011342 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AFjQ1i014648 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:45:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23085 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:45:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11631 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:45:25 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7AFjPO26343 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:45:25 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:45:25 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030810154525.GE25713@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 08:41:55AM -0700, Michel Py wrote: > > A little reckless IMHO, if your neighbor's wireless is up there is a > strong risk of allowing association. It was just an example. In practice most UK home WLAN APs run at about 30mW which won't break out to neighbours. Max power is limited to 100mW by law; I think it's a lot more (1W?) in the US? > > Similar approaches could be adopted for the types > > of scenarios here. > > Indeed. My point was that Joe Six-Pack can eventually push a button, but > not remove a default route. Hence the example. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 11:39:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AIdrCM001226; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AIdrNB001225; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AIdnCM001218 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AIb9Uu011901 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AIb4nW011588 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:36:26 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:04 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:36:49 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:05 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:37:02 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNfTmmutKF1H3AtSOeU3dShm6+BDwAHn+hH From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Nir Arad" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2003 18:37:03.0100 (UTC) FILETIME=[645773C0:01C35F6E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AIdoCM001219 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Actually, I believe we do not have a birthday paradox issue in this case. > The birthday paradox would exist only if ALL 1.2 million self-drawn prefixes would see each other. > However, in our scenario, the merging of two enterprises, only the two local prefixes may collide with each other. > They can not collide with the other 1.2 million or any other number of prefixes out there. > Thus, the probability remains 2^-40. The individual probability of two domains colliding is x=2^-40, but the global result on the Internet is a somewhat larger. If we have N domains, and each peers with M other domains, then the probability of absence of collision for each domain is: p1 = (1-x)^M The probability that no collision will be observed in the whole Internet is p2 = (1-x)^MN I believe we can easily find a value of N (say 10 billion) and M (say 100) where p2 is close to 1, i.e. some poor guy somewhere is going to get stuck. Which means that we should build an escape hatch: easy renumbering & number registration come to mind. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:13:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJDoCM004716; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJDnxI004715; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJDkCM004708 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJB6Uu019585 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJB168000794 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:11:01 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:11:00 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6AACsTKsAAPku5wACJLLQA= From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AJDkCM004709 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, >>> Jim Bound wrote: >>> If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then >>> all is fine. Thats the bottom line. >> Michel Py wrote. >> I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but >> making >sure that they can't. > Even better yes. They "can't". You can't guarantee that for the Hinden/Haberman draft, which is the reason I will not use it until we have a solution on a PI-like setup. It's a matter of risk: If I use the Hinden/Haberman draft as private addresses, and if it ends up being perverted as PI, my entire network design goes to the trash. If I hijack a random prefix for private addresses, the risk of collisions although not null is a lot less. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:22:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJMrCM005206; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJMrvh005203; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJMlCM005176 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJK8Uu021409 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJK2nW027204 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:20:02 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Thread-Index: AcNfJLnOUoA1/yKkSJqadw2POShUUQAS38rw From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AJMmCM005180 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter > My bottom line on this, I think, is that this version > of scope has very limited use - it doesn't deal with the > situations that my services colleagues see every day, > and it is not something that middleware can make any use > of. At most, it allows for some defaults in firewall > rules and address selection rules, but those can be set > up on well-known prefixes just as easily as on a scope > value. Although could agree with some of this, you are missing the point. This would be if we had a PI solution, which we don't. In the lack of it, the benefits of perverting the Hinden/Haberman draft into PI and do whatever works for private addresses (such as hijacking) are _greatly_ superior to using the Hinden/Haberman draft for private addresses and have no PI and no multihoming solution. No matter how infortunate, it is scope that could lesser the risk of this happening, which is why making SLs unambiguous was possible, and also what makes the Hinden/Haberman draft such a peril as the only significant difference is that now these addresses have a global scope. _IF_ we had a deployed solution that would bring the advantages of PI, _then_ the Hinden/Haberman draft would be a no-brainer. I am not opposed to abolishing scope, but we need to solve the PI issue first. If it never crossed your mind, abolishing scope and slightly revamping SLs would make their deprecation un-necessary as all the problems associated with them would be gone. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:27:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJRWCM005357; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJRW6B005356; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJRSCM005349 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJOnV7016669 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJOii0002802 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:24:44 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Thread-Index: AcNfJLnh5Vcwa/xcTASmRu1PnEEKuwAT8KjA From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , "IPv6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AJRTCM005350 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > And the fact is that enterprise network managers are > very happy to have a class of addresses that cannot be > globally routed and are filtered by default as bogons > by all ISPs. You forget that the very reason RFC1918 addresses are filtered as bogons is precisely because they are ambiguous. > So they just love RFC 1918 addresses for that, and > hate them for their ambiguity (since that creates a > mess when they have to be routed anyway, e.g. on VPNs). > The main point of this draft, as far as I'm concerned, > is to convey this requirement, which isn't met either > by PA prefixes or the old SL prefix. The requirement was met fine by the SL prefix; the only reason they still are ambiguous is because both Bob and I put our drafts to remove ambiguity from SLs on the back burner due to the deprecation situation. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:29:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJTuCM005431; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJTtTs005430; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJTpCM005423 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJRCUu022671 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJR6i0003588 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn3-159.cisco.com [10.21.64.159]) by bej-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7AJQqnj005490; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:26:55 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <3F369C82.1090608@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:26:58 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nir Arad CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> In-Reply-To: <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk If the sole purpose of these addresses is for layer 3 connectivity as envisioned for LOCAL USE, then I would agree with Nir Arad that we do not have a problem. Stop reading here if that's your position. If on the other hand, as Geoff states in his draft, and some people seem to be implying, that these addresses could be used as some sort of end point identifier outside of the routing system, then we do have a problem. The reason this is an interesting problem is because these addresses have properties that would seem to align well with many people's idea of conceptually separate end point identifiers. In particular: o Statistical v. Administrative uniqueness -- see the NSRG draft o Easy processing as a fixed size and at a (mostly) fixed point in the packet. o Below the transport that could be used to maintain connections. o non-aggregatability -- some would believe that since only a forward mapping is necessary there is no need for aggregatability, and that indeed one shouldn't allow these things to have properties of addresses in order to avoid overloading of functions. A word of caution is in order. It is just that overloading, however, that we are doing in the context of local connectivity. And so for those who are considering this approach, you would be wise to consider a bit further as to the implications of that overloading. In particular, ipv6.arpa issues should be considered as well as any *forward* mapping from this address to globally routable IPv6 addresses. The problems with doing this, however, are well stated in Geoff's draft. All of a sudden you are not simply interacting locally but more globally, and that means that for statistically "unique" values one should assume some collisions *will* occur (albeit rarely). So in a peculiar sort of way, various efforts are converging towards very similar architectural properties but for somewhat different purposes. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:32:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJWuCM005599; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJWtbh005598; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJWpCM005588 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJUBUu023264 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJU5D1024678 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:30:05 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:30:05 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0f45aUMNuA0hSpyZUfnmZMrsqADsNR5AAAs1QIAADkskYAAjGWMw From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AJWpCM005589 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, >>> Jim Bound wrote: >>> But what we cannot do is discuss it for the >>> next year leaving the market in limbo? >> The reason the market is in limbo in the first place >> is deprecation without a replacement. If the market did >> not need SLs it would not have gone in limbo over the >> issue. > Agreed. But we had a bug and a big one. You are awfully cavalier with taking such risks with the market. What if the market does not like the replacement? The market will stay in limbo. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:39:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJdLCM006093; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJdLq8006092; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJdHCM006078 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJabUu024540 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJaV1i026006 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:36:31 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:36:31 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Thread-Index: AcNeB9raTcvpljflQ9KpvPuDH6c9MAAfUyXgADw6u2A= From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AJdHCM006080 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Jim Bound wrote: > Putting on deployment hat and all this discussion from > the most knowledgeable people on this issue here SLs must > die and new pheonix is required. Easier said than done. > But to tell a customer to use these is not honorable at > this point. My input now as individual person when asked > is DO NOT USE SLs at ALL. Then don't whine about the market being in limbo because by your own admission it is in limbo precisely because of the deprecation. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 12:51:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJpLCM006665; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AJpLMf006664; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AJpHCM006654 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AJmcV7021675 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AJmVnW006935 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.88]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7AKjp6D005192 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:45:51 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <02f201c35f81$4bcb2410$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk 10 billion organizations, each merging with 100 other, distinct organizations? When Mathematicians talk about "0 probability events", I think that's what they mean... ;-) Surely, even taken the 2^-40 probability, some poor guy can get stuck - I agree with that. (I can imagine him thinking, "I should not have ignored this MD5 part...") Regards, -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Nir Arad" ; Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:37 PM Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > Actually, I believe we do not have a birthday paradox issue in this case. > > The birthday paradox would exist only if ALL 1.2 million self-drawn prefixes would see each other. > > However, in our scenario, the merging of two enterprises, only the two local prefixes may collide with each other. > > They can not collide with the other 1.2 million or any other number of prefixes out there. > > Thus, the probability remains 2^-40. > > The individual probability of two domains colliding is x=2^-40, but the global result on the Internet is a somewhat larger. If we have N domains, and each peers with M other domains, then the probability of absence of collision for each domain is: > p1 = (1-x)^M > The probability that no collision will be observed in the whole Internet is > p2 = (1-x)^MN > I believe we can easily find a value of N (say 10 billion) and M (say 100) where p2 is close to 1, i.e. some poor guy somewhere is going to get stuck. > > Which means that we should build an escape hatch: easy renumbering & number registration come to mind. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 10 13:26:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AKQnCM007124; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7AKQnnD007123; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7AKQjCM007116 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7AKO6Uu002578 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AKO0nW019134 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:24:00 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Thread-Index: AcNfdk3AbWlIXr3CSGWecinyl9jXBgAAIc6A From: "Michel Py" To: "Eliot Lear" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7AKQjCM007117 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, > Eliot Lear wrote: > Subject: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of > the hinden/templin address space > If the sole purpose of these addresses is for layer 3 > connectivity as envisioned for LOCAL USE, then I would > agree with Nir Arad that we do not have a problem. Same here, however I do not think we can talk in terms of purpose. The peril of these addresses is precisely that they will be used to ways contrary to their purpose, which needs to be taken into account. > If on the other hand, as Geoff states in his draft, and some > people seem to be implying, that these addresses could be used > as some sort of end point identifier outside of the routing > system, then we do have a problem. Note that as author of a two-space locator/identifier protocol I do not share this point of view. There is a need for a private address prefix that is completely separate from the prefix used for end-point identifiers. Among other things, I fear that using private addresses as end-point identifiers for global traffic will lead directly to NAT. Conceptually, the endpoint identifier is like a PI address, which it targets to replace. The only reason for the separation between endpoint identifiers and locators is that it enables a reduction in routing table size, _not_ because it wants to blend the identifier with the private address. These are separate animals. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 00:19:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7B7J2CM010298; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7B7J2lb010297; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7B7IwCM010290 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7B7GIUu023296 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7B7GB68007021 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:16:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.3.1.84]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7B8DV6D022557 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:13:31 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <032d01c35fe1$5dc7ee90$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:20:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Eliot Lear wrote: > > Subject: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of > > the hinden/templin address space > > If the sole purpose of these addresses is for layer 3 > > connectivity as envisioned for LOCAL USE, then I would > > agree with Nir Arad that we do not have a problem. > > Same here, however I do not think we can talk in terms of purpose. The > peril of these addresses is precisely that they will be used to ways > contrary to their purpose, which needs to be taken into account. > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and destination addresses are not of the same scope. Thus, it will not be possible to use NAT on scoped addresses: Even if hosts would diverse from this specification and send packets from local to global scopes, they can not rely on routers inside the organization to forward it to the NAT at the edge. Thus hosts will naturally turn to global addresses for external communications. As for internal communications (here's another flame bait): I propose to prefer global addresses too. Only those "special, internal applications" that should maintain very long term connections at the transport layer should be a little complicated by allowing the user to prefer local addresses, thus addressing the debated stability issue. Hosts will be forced down to local addressing only if the destination has only a local scope address (e.g. an internal printer). Regards, -- Nir Arad -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 01:05:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7B85kCM010995; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7B85kiF010994; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7B85fCM010987 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7B831Uu002542 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7B82t68018826 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:02:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr03.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h7B82ttG002364 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:02:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr03.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr03) with ESMTP id h7B82p76017290 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:02:52 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7B82ocB001032 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:02:50 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F374DAA.7CD6290E@motorola.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:02:50 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space References: <032d01c35fe1$5dc7ee90$5801040a@lt38> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Nir Arad wrote: > As for internal communications (here's another flame bait): > I propose to prefer global addresses too. > Only those "special, internal applications" that should maintain very > long term connections at the transport layer should be a little > complicated by allowing the user to prefer local addresses, thus > addressing the debated stability issue. > Hosts will be forced down to local addressing only if the destination > has only a local scope address (e.g. an internal printer). Define 'special, internal applications'? - Is my NFS mount a special, internal application? - What about my game session? - My ssh session to a server? Define 'very long term'? >From an IPv6 ISP I'm probably safe up to a week. However, if my global connection is from a hot spot or 6to4 address I have very little guarantee that the prefix will persist more than a few hours. In contrast, my local address prefix is guaranteed to last as long as the router or network does. Applications that don't do forwarding of IP addresses simply need an address that they can route to. The local address is as good as any, and has the nice side effect of being more robust against failure (or deprecation) external to the site. Applications that do forward IP addresses can't a-priori trust any address, since they can't know where the filters are (if any). Safe strategies include: - manual configuration - send DNS names and let the target choose - send all available options and let the target choose (this isn't a very good option) - additional information I'll also note that no deployment is forced to use local addresses - if someone or something doesn't configure them then they won't exist. There is a solution that will cause all these considerations to be obsolete - strictly enforce one (and only one) address per node. And ban filters while you're at it. Any takers? Side point: a policy which allows for local addresses but auto-deprecates them when an external address becomes available causes local addresses to lose one advantage - the local address is now subject to failure because of site-external events. > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes MUST > NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and destination > addresses are not of the same scope. I think this is unnecessarily stringent. Certainly nodes should prefer not to send packets with non-matching 'scopes' (see "default address selection"), but I don't see it as an error condition to do so. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 05:05:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BC5CCM012098; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BC5Ctp012097; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BC58CM012090 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BC2RUu015969 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BC2Kh4003130 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:02:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.3.1.84]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7BCxe6D026894 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:59:40 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <037201c36009$570d7de0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: "IPng mailing list" Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:06:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Nir Arad wrote: > > > As for internal communications (here's another flame bait): > > I propose to prefer global addresses too. > > Only those "special, internal applications" that should maintain very > > long term connections at the transport layer should be a little > > complicated by allowing the user to prefer local addresses, thus > > addressing the debated stability issue. > > Hosts will be forced down to local addressing only if the destination > > has only a local scope address (e.g. an internal printer). > > Define 'special, internal applications'? > - Is my NFS mount a special, internal application? > - What about my game session? > - My ssh session to a server? > > Define 'very long term'? > I was refering the Moore-Hain discussion in the "local vs. nonlocal address stability" thread. [snip] > Applications that do forward IP addresses can't a-priori trust any address, > since they can't know where the filters are (if any). Safe strategies > include: > - manual configuration > - send DNS names and let the target choose > - send all available options and let the target choose (this isn't a very > good option) > - additional information > My suggestion is to use scoping explicitly; the application will KNOW that packets with mismatched address scopes WILL get filtered in the first node they encounter. Nodes may still do address selection as per your suggestions, but only if the source node and the destination node have several configured addresses in shared scopes. > I'll also note that no deployment is forced to use local addresses - if > someone or something doesn't configure them then they won't exist. > agreed. > > There is a solution that will cause all these considerations to be obsolete > - strictly enforce one (and only one) address per node. And ban filters > while you're at it. Any takers? > I think we already know that there is a strong opposition to that. > > Side point: a policy which allows for local addresses but auto-deprecates > them when an external address becomes available causes local addresses to > lose one advantage - the local address is now subject to failure because of > site-external events. > I never suggested that. I don't think anyone does. > > > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes MUST > > NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and destination > > addresses are not of the same scope. > > I think this is unnecessarily stringent. Certainly nodes should prefer not > to send packets with non-matching 'scopes' (see "default address > selection"), but I don't see it as an error condition to do so. > I think that anything less than that will take us again to the currently ongoing debate. I'm in favor of answering the major requirements, and otherwise keeping things simple. In my eyes, the major requirements are: - Provide an addressing solution to disconnected networks. - Provide address stability, at least internally. - Allow various administrative scenarios (merging, connecting/disconnecting the internet), while minimizing the chance to harm other entities (implying uniqeness) - Make address selection, and applications in general, as simple as possible; make it even simpler to the users Regards, -- Nir Arad -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 05:16:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCGgCM012349; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BCGfww012348; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCGbCM012334 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BCDuUu018075 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BCDonW010550 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BCDmch099802 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:13:48 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BCDkwL282442 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:13:47 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22912 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:13:45 +0200 Message-ID: <3F378876.26B142D9@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:13:42 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel Py wrote: > > Brian, > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > And the fact is that enterprise network managers are > > very happy to have a class of addresses that cannot be > > globally routed and are filtered by default as bogons > > by all ISPs. > > You forget that the very reason RFC1918 addresses are filtered as bogons > is precisely because they are ambiguous. Well, with RFC 1918 there is no way to disentangle the notion of "private" from the notion of "ambiguous". So I don't think this is relevant. > > So they just love RFC 1918 addresses for that, and > > hate them for their ambiguity (since that creates a > > mess when they have to be routed anyway, e.g. on VPNs). > > The main point of this draft, as far as I'm concerned, > > is to convey this requirement, which isn't met either > > by PA prefixes or the old SL prefix. > > The requirement was met fine by the SL prefix; the only reason they > still are ambiguous is because both Bob and I put our drafts to remove > ambiguity from SLs on the back burner due to the deprecation situation. Sure, at one level it doesn't matter whether the limited addresses are FEC0:xxxx::/48 or as proposed in draft-hinden. I think it's better for existing code to leave FEC0::/10 reserved and deprecated, but that's a secondary argument. Brian > > Michel. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 05:31:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCVfCM012685; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BCVeVT012684; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCVbCM012677 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BCSuV7021876 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BCSonW018061 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BCSmch162422 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:28:48 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BCSiwL241454 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:28:46 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA33582 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:28:43 +0200 Message-ID: <3F378BF8.B4AF8DDC@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:28:40 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin addressspace References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> <3F369C82.1090608@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, I kept reading, because if these things are created they *will* certainly end up being used as end point identifiers. We have to invent some multi6 solution quickly to prevent them also being NATted. Unfortunately, this applies even if they are not created. Before RFC 1918, lots of sites were configured with Net 1, because at least one vendor shipped boxes configured for that by default. Similarly, IPv6 sites that can't get stable PA prefixes will configure *something* as a stable prefix, even if the IETF does nothing. As for the locally-assigned pseudo-random variant of Hinden/Templin, it carries a low risk of collision, which is why the centrally-assigned option is there. I would advise my own employer to go for the central solution, to avoid the minute risk of a collision. But the central solution will take a while to set up, for reasons that Geoff has documented. The local solution could be there in a hurry, by IANA action. If I needed a limited-range prefix this week, I'd prefer that to nothing. As I think I already said, if you want cryptographic assurance of identity, an IPv6 prefix isn't the solution. They are too easily forged. That's the real risk, not a random number collision. Brian Eliot Lear wrote: > > If the sole purpose of these addresses is for layer 3 connectivity as > envisioned for LOCAL USE, then I would agree with Nir Arad that we do > not have a problem. Stop reading here if that's your position. > > If on the other hand, as Geoff states in his draft, and some people seem > to be implying, that these addresses could be used as some sort of end > point identifier outside of the routing system, then we do have a problem. > > The reason this is an interesting problem is because these addresses > have properties that would seem to align well with many people's idea of > conceptually separate end point identifiers. In particular: > > o Statistical v. Administrative uniqueness > -- see the NSRG draft > > o Easy processing as a fixed size and at a (mostly) fixed point in > the packet. > > o Below the transport that could be used to maintain connections. > > o non-aggregatability > -- some would believe that since only a forward mapping is > necessary there is no need for aggregatability, and that indeed > one shouldn't allow these things to have properties of addresses > in order to avoid overloading of functions. > > A word of caution is in order. It is just that overloading, however, > that we are doing in the context of local connectivity. And so for > those who are considering this approach, you would be wise to consider a > bit further as to the implications of that overloading. In particular, > ipv6.arpa issues should be considered as well as any *forward* mapping > from this address to globally routable IPv6 addresses. > > The problems with doing this, however, are well stated in Geoff's draft. > All of a sudden you are not simply interacting locally but more > globally, and that means that for statistically "unique" values one > should assume some collisions *will* occur (albeit rarely). > > So in a peculiar sort of way, various efforts are converging towards > very similar architectural properties but for somewhat different purposes. > > Eliot > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 05:43:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCh2CM012975; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BCh2sS012974; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCgxCM012967 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BCeIUu022887 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BCeCnW023553 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BCeB7o081054 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:40:11 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BCeAwL241658 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:40:10 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA31628 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:40:09 +0200 Message-ID: <3F378EA6.E8936B04@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:40:06 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: <064201c35dcd$2efb3600$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > ... > > > No, a link must be wholly contained within a site, and by > > definition > > > anything that is less than global fits wholly within global. Yes > > > multiple local regions can overlap, but that does not > > invalidate the > > > overall model. > > > > I think it does, because it makes "less than global" > > ambiguous. Does it mean "my intranet", "my intranet plus a > > VPN to company X", "a VPN to company X but not my intranet", > > "my VPNs to companies X and Y plus a secure subset of my > > intranet", or a combinatorial number of similar choices? > > Why do you assume it needs a predefined meaning? I am approaching this from > the perspective that the local network manager defines what it means in > context. They do this all the time with routing areas, so why is a scope > context any different? Quite correct. What I'm pushing back on is the idea that three levels of scope (link, local, global) capture much of anything useful. If we were talking about scope between say 0 and 255, where 0 means link, 255 means global, and 1..254 are user defined, we might be able to define something of value to enterprise network operators. But that is a whole new ball game, and not something we can tackle as part of this debate IMHO. > > > ... > > > I agree with the last sentence, but not the premise about > > defining an > > > API. One way to describe a desired outcome would be, bind > > to a limited > > > range address associated with ibm.com. > > > > Indeed. Good example. It turns out to be a list of about 139 > > IPv4 prefixes, manually maintained. I got that from my VPN > > setup. That's exactly the problem. > > So add sub-domains whenever there is a real difference in usefulness of any > prefix in the list (fwiw: I assume that the 139 are artifacts of history, > and there are probably less than 6 real groupings). Since these are unique, > once the system has one it will be clear which interface or context it > should be used with. Certainly it's less than 139, but I suspect (without bothering to check) more like 10 real groupings. It's significantly more than one, in any case. > > ... > > > > I think we'd be better off to simply forget about address scope. > > > > > > We could choose to ignore the most commonly deployed segment of the > > > existing Internet, but how useful would the results be. > > > > That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that trying to > > solve it with a simple concentric-circles model of scope is > > impossible. > > I doubt it is impossible. More challenging than global flat routing? Yes, > but not impossible. > > In any case, I think the point you are bringing up is that truly global > routing is a rare exception, and the vast bulk of the environment lives in > the middle space. If so, I agree which leads to the question, why are we > trying to optimize the address space and api's around the least likely usage > scenario? I realize it makes app development simpler to assume the world is > flat, but if the bulk of reality says otherwise, shouldn't we acknowledge > that and bring app development into the 21st century? Possibly, but it's hard, and I think we have to separate it from this debate. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 05:46:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCkGCM013030; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BCkG2u013029; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BCkCCM013022 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BChVUu023433 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 05:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BChP1i012758 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:43:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BChNch168140 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:43:23 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BChNOA271604 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:43:23 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28356 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:43:22 +0200 Message-ID: <3F378F67.AE9BB583@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:43:19 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, If by PI you mean *globally routeable* PI, I am not holding my breath, and I believe it would be a serious mistake to delay any decisions while waiting for PI. If you mean non-globally-routeable PI, Hinden/Haberman is a fine solution. Brian Michel Py wrote: > > Brian, > > > Brian E Carpenter > > My bottom line on this, I think, is that this version > > of scope has very limited use - it doesn't deal with the > > situations that my services colleagues see every day, > > and it is not something that middleware can make any use > > of. At most, it allows for some defaults in firewall > > rules and address selection rules, but those can be set > > up on well-known prefixes just as easily as on a scope > > value. > > Although could agree with some of this, you are missing the point. This > would be if we had a PI solution, which we don't. In the lack of it, the > benefits of perverting the Hinden/Haberman draft into PI and do whatever > works for private addresses (such as hijacking) are _greatly_ superior > to using the Hinden/Haberman draft for private addresses and have no PI > and no multihoming solution. > > No matter how infortunate, it is scope that could lesser the risk of > this happening, which is why making SLs unambiguous was possible, and > also what makes the Hinden/Haberman draft such a peril as the only > significant difference is that now these addresses have a global scope. > > _IF_ we had a deployed solution that would bring the advantages of PI, > _then_ the Hinden/Haberman draft would be a no-brainer. > > I am not opposed to abolishing scope, but we need to solve the PI issue > first. If it never crossed your mind, abolishing scope and slightly > revamping SLs would make their deprecation un-necessary as all the > problems associated with them would be gone. > > Michel. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 06:08:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BD8YCM013638; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BD8YKS013637; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BD8VCM013630 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BD5oUu028183 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BD5i1i025614 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BD5h7o103752 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:05:43 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BD5gOA190940 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:05:42 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21108 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:05:41 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3794A3.DB7D92E1@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:05:39 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Which requirement are you referring to? [Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing] References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> <1060353516.692.57.camel@hades> <3F360DC7.421B988@zurich.ibm.com> <1060529540.5013.13.camel@hades> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 12:17, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > I would prefer it if the use of semi-unique local scope addresses were > > > restricted to non-connected networks. For any connected network you can > > > assume that the network manager is able go to some registry website and > > > grab a guaranteed unique prefix. > > > > Ideally, yes. But that doesn't solve all the real world problems - see > > the Hain/Templin draft. > > Which requirement are you referring to? > > I don't see any requirement for (even slightly) ambiguous addresses, > aside from the case where it is, for whatever reason, not possible to > quickly acquire a guaranteed unique limited range address from a central > registry. Exactly! In that case, whatever the reason, a pseudo-random value with a tiny probability of collision is a fine alternative. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 06:14:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BDErCM013810; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BDErim013809; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BDEnCM013802 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BDC8Uu029411 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BDC21i028930 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:12:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BDC09e059924 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:12:00 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BDC0OA267168 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:12:01 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA33732 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:11:59 +0200 Message-ID: <3F37961D.749D292A@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:11:57 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: site-local observations from the outside References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel Py wrote: > > Jim, > > >>> Jim Bound wrote: > >>> If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then > >>> all is fine. Thats the bottom line. > > >> Michel Py wrote. > >> I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but > >> making >sure that they can't. > > > Even better yes. They "can't". > > You can't guarantee that for the Hinden/Haberman draft, which is the > reason I will not use it until we have a solution on a PI-like setup. > It's a matter of risk: If I use the Hinden/Haberman draft as private > addresses, and if it ends up being perverted as PI, my entire network > design goes to the trash. If I hijack a random prefix for private > addresses, the risk of collisions although not null is a lot less. I am puzzled by your last two sentences. Can you be more precise about why your design would be trashed and why random hijacking is less risky than a pseudo-random generator? Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 06:44:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BDilCM014353; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BDil08014352; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BDiiCM014345 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BDg3Uu005290 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BDfv1i016035 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BDftch021260 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:41:55 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7BDftwL218958 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:41:56 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA43800 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:41:54 +0200 Message-ID: <3F379D20.B8DA42B4@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:41:52 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'IPv6'" Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: <3F2EE657.5050606@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot, I've just got around to reading the draft, and I'm puzzled by your reaction. I think it's almost ready to ship. I thought I'd found one omission, then discovered that the point was in fact covered. Maybe we are once again in trouble with the R-word. Perhaps if we s/requirements/goals/ it would be better. Some details below: Eliot Lear wrote: > > Hello, > > I've read over this draft, and I find it very confusing. The title of > the draft is "Limited Range Addressing Requirements". However, as one > goes through the document, there is both justification and requirements. > What time is spent on the justification for "limited range" addressing > is using IPv4 and NOT IPv6 logic. I think Tony already said this, but network managers will continue using IPv4 logic for many years. We don't have much choice, if we want to persuade them to upgrade to IPv6. > In part I presume this is due to > somebody's notion of IPv6 registry policies. Really? We certainly worked hard to get the registries to a suitable policy on /48. But their policies in general are fine, IMHO. > I'm not sure. But here > are a few "for instances": > > > There is a strong requirement for an easy-to-get, stable, private > > address space for use within a limited range. Reasons include: > > > o avoid costs associated with running a registration infrastructure > > I've done this job for a very large company, as have many of you. I > presume what you are talking about above is the management of network > allocations. That doesn't stop whether or not one uses site-locals XXX > errr.. limited range addressing. It does get easier with IPv6 given the > fixed amount of space hosts have. The vast majority of time is spent > allocating and reallocating that which has already been assigned by the > upstream authority. Only rarely is there any interaction needed with an > upstream for additional allocations. It is a low frequency operation > not to be optimized for. True, but also it means that unless all PA prefixes in use *and* the limited-range prefix have the same length (i.e. /48), subnet management will be different for different prefixes. That is where I see the cost argument. > > > o avoid exposing internal network plans to competitors > > This is a procedural artifact of IPv4 that I have to believe can be > gotten around. In fact it probably could have been gotten around with > IPv4 using existing auditing business relationships. Although I think this "security by obscurity" belief is bogus, it is very deeply held and I see no realistic prospect of getting rid of it. > > Before I go through the remainder of the document on this list (and I > believe I have substantial disagreement) I'd request the authors update > the Terminology section to include at least the following definitions: > > 1. "limited range" -- in particular, what is the semantic difference > between these and SLs? IMHO, mainly that they mustn't be ambiguous. And we need to change the name to avoid confusion. > 2. Redo "range" as its current definition doesn't help me much. domain of applicability of a given address prefix > 3. "validity" or "valid" I see nothing specialized in the way it's used. > 4. "filter" or "filtering" OK, a definition might help some readers. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 07:40:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BEetCM014803; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BEetf2014802; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BEepCM014792 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BEcAV7019695 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emerson.torrentnet.com (emerson.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.110]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BEc5m5015615 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:38:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imperial.torrentnet.com (imperial.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.109]) by emerson.torrentnet.com (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h7BEc2S66509; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from castillo.torrentnet.com (castillo.torrentnet.com [4.18.161.34]) by imperial.torrentnet.com (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h7BEc1h15214; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from newcastle.torrentnet.com (newcastle.torrentnet.com [4.18.161.67]) by castillo.torrentnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26548; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Steven Blake Reply-To: slblake@torrentnet.com To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 11 Aug 2003 10:38:00 -0400 Message-Id: <1060612680.970.564.camel@newcastle.torrentnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-08-07 at 08:52, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > What we're dealing with here is intrinsically a much simpler problem than > the RIRs had to solve for aggregatable address space when CIDR > arrived. There are very good reasons why routeable address space > allocation requires policies, justifications, and annual fees. I will take > a lot of convincing that we can't fund a one-time pseudo-random allocation > with a one-time fee. After all, if after a few years nobody applies for > numbers any more, the escrowed numbers can be saved on a CD and the > registry can close down, and there's no need for continued fees. Why do the allocations have to be escrowed by the registry, instead of the allocation recipients? I can prove I possess an allocation by producing a signed e-mail from the registry. Regards, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Steven L. Blake Ericsson IP Infrastructure +1 919-472-9913 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 08:17:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BFHECM015131; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BFHEPe015130; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BFHBCM015123 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BFETUu025517 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BFENm5028334 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:14:24 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:14:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNgC2UCDrP8mtR4RnKsFEuOWTsrMgACo9Iw From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7BFHBCM015124 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, >> Michel Py wrote: >> It's a matter of risk: If I use the >> Hinden/Haberman draft as private addresses, and if it ends up >> being perverted as PI, my entire network design goes to the >> trash. If I hijack a random prefix for private addresses, the >> risk of collisions although not null is a lot less. > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I am puzzled by your last two sentences. Can you be more > precise about why your design would be trashed Because then the addresses used on the private network would be routable PI, which is exactly what network designers don't want when they design a private network with private addresses. >From another post: > If by PI you mean *globally routeable* PI, I am not holding > my breath, and I believe it would be a serious mistake to > delay any decisions while waiting for PI. > If you mean non-globally-routeable PI, Hinden/Haberman is a > fine solution. What you refuse to acknowledge is that there is a high probability that the Hinden/Haberman draft will be misused as globally routable PI. As so, it can't be used for private addresses. I'm not the only one that says this. Network administrators don't buy that addresses in the Hinden/Haberman draft will remain non-routable because they will be the first jumping in the train to make them routable in the first place. > and why random hijacking is less risky than a > pseudo-random generator? It's not; it has everything to do with the purpose of the prefix, not with the way the address was picked. The risk of collision for an address that does not get out of the site is a lot less (specifically, a merge) than for an address that reaches the outside. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 08:55:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BFt5CM015461; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BFt5xf015460; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BFt1CM015453 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BFqKV7009019 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BFqERI026829 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:52:14 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:52:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Thread-Index: AcNf2aAzS3sKYdjlQnyYzXW/dvQDpAARjXBQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Nir Arad" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7BFt1CM015454 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Nir, > Nir Arad wrote: > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes > MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and > destination addresses are not of the same scope. That would some problems but appears to be unworkable to me. It's not flexible enough. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 09:04:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BG4QCM015635; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BG4QAQ015634; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BG4MCM015627 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BG1fUu010564 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BG1a5w002240 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin addressspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:01:36 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin addressspace Thread-Index: AcNgBS3xg8TcE/SOQviBS0P/kiiMpAAG9A3w From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7BG4NCM015628 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I kept reading, because if these things are created they *will* > certainly end up being used as end point identifiers. Can you develop why? In the absolute I can find lots of reasons but I don't see why the identifier/locator solution would prefer using these vs. having its own prefix. I agree that they would be used for NAT though, because NAT does not need anything to be invented. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 09:13:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGDsCM015914; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BGDsYu015913; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGDpCM015906 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BGBAV7015454 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BGB3m5019679 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.3.1.84]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7BH8M6D009797 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:08:23 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <045101c3602c$15c5d4e0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:14:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Could you please give a scenario that breaks it? -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Py" To: "Nir Arad" ; Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:52 PM Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space > Nir, > > > Nir Arad wrote: > > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes > > MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and > > destination addresses are not of the same scope. > > That would some problems but appears to be unworkable to me. It's not > flexible enough. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 09:32:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGWYCM016315; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BGWYCf016314; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGWVCM016307 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BGToUu020310 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BGTim5026618 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:29:44 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:29:44 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Thread-Index: AcNgJBhOKTVEMUnOQfWKnb6m6YE76wAAUJVQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Nir Arad" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7BGWVCM016308 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> Nir Arad wrote: >>> I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes >>> MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and >>> destination addresses are not of the same scope. >> Michel Py wrote: >> That would some problems but appears to be unworkable to me. It's >> not flexible enough. > Could you please give a scenario that breaks it? <-------------------- Global Addresses ----------------><- Local addr -> +-----+ | ISP | : +--+--+ : ! : +--+---------+ +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ | Router A : +--|< Firewall+--+--|< Firewall+--+--+ Router B +----+ +------------+ +----------+ | +----------+ | +----------+ | : | | | : +---+--+ +--+---+ +----+----+ : | DFZ | | Host | | Control | : | Host | +------+ | Device | : +------+ +---------+ ---Site -->:<-------------------------- Site --------------------------> : - Router A is the SBR. - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to hosts between the internal firewall and router B, but not to the control devices. - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to the outside. - Hosts between the internal firewall and router B need to be able to talk to everybody. - Control devices are accessible only from hosts between the internal firewall and router B. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 09:51:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGpSCM016629; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BGpRwe016628; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BGpOCM016621 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BGmhV7027867 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BGmcOw007440 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Aug 2003 09:54:35 -0700 Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn1-1012.cisco.com [10.21.99.244]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7BGmauG025496; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F37C8E3.2050406@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:48:35 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin addressspace References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> <3F369C82.1090608@cisco.com> <3F378BF8.B4AF8DDC@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F378BF8.B4AF8DDC@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, There is a major difference between now and 1994. There should be no hurry for anyone to NAT IPv6. If you're going to NAT IPv6 you might as well stay on IPv4. What disturbs me most is this rush to fix something with a solution that would derail or delay other solutions simply because "better the devil you know". Rather than argue the point further, however, I propose to work with Fred to help him develop the renumbering draft. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 10:22:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BHMdCM017000; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BHMdql016999; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BHMZCM016989 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BHJsV7009676 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BHJn5w024921 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Aug 2003 10:19:48 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7BHJktp014756; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGZ00046; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id KAA01488; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16183.53297.397364.541566@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] In-Reply-To: <3F360AFA.73F795E6@zurich.ibm.com> References: <16177.30061.331877.636249@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F31F70F.B7A6DD28@zurich.ibm.com> <16178.31286.837300.952142@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <3F360AFA.73F795E6@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter writes: > Michael Thomas wrote: > > Which leads *directly* to NAT's at "local" > > boundaries and /48's in the DFZ. > > As has been said by various people, all this is somewhat orthogonal to > whether NAT's appear. If we provide > a) unambiguous provider-independent prefixes > b) good mechanisms for running with these *in parallel* with routeable > provider prefixes > c) site multihoming > d) renumbering tools > > we'll have done about all we can do, I believe, to make NAT unnecessary > and more painful than the alternative. But as usual, it's not the > IETF that decides what gets sold and used. It seems to me that in order to make "progress" you seem to be saying that I have to make a leap of faith that non-globally routable provider independent addresses will not be abused. That is, that people will not try to make the globally routable by either NAT'ing them, or getting providers to advertise the prefix. I'm sorry, but nothing that goes on today gives me any reason to make such a leap. > > And Fred's draft really shows how little we know > > about renumbering in the real world. > > > > > I think we are way past the point in history where it is fruitful to > > > make the sort of free-space wish-the-world-was-different analysis > > > you are advocating. Hinden/Haberman leads to simple, straightforward > > > changes to shipping code and that's all we can afford now. > > > > I'm having a very difficult time reconciling what > > you're saying here with your "Let's abolish" post. > > Why? My point about the existing notion of scope is > that it is not useful, so we can drop it. Well, I don't disagree. My larger point is the desire for scoped addresses are a symptom of requirements not being met (duh) but the heart of the problem is that they are ignoring other serious problems and/or requirements in their rush to make a stopgap. Having all of the requirements well know would be extremely helpful so that the deficiencies can be evaluated instead of swept under the rug. > No. I'm very frustrated at how slowly all this has developed, > but we should certainly get a) through d) above done. What do you propose? The sticking point is and has for a very long time been (a). You see it as resolved, I don't. Why should I believe that this will not result in NAT's, exponential route growth, or most likely both? Also: you I believe questioned the very premise of whether "local" applications (eg, could use non-globally routable addresses) were even particularly useful in real life. If that's true, then what problem is (a) solving? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 10:25:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BHPiCM017018; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BHPh6J017017; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BHPdCM017010 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BHMwV7010779 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BHMpm5015356 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:22:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7BHNabR012668; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:23:36 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7BHNZnq012667; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:23:35 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Which requirement are you referring to? [Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing] From: Mika Liljeberg To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F3794A3.DB7D92E1@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <1060276161.694.24.camel@hades> <187924046.1060269923@hkruse2003a> <1060299417.693.46.camel@hades> <3F338F16.49933252@zurich.ibm.com> <1060353516.692.57.camel@hades> <3F360DC7.421B988@zurich.ibm.com> <1060529540.5013.13.camel@hades> <3F3794A3.DB7D92E1@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1060622615.5013.18.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 11 Aug 2003 20:23:35 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2003-08-11 at 16:05, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > > > On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 12:17, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > > I would prefer it if the use of semi-unique local scope addresses were > > > > restricted to non-connected networks. For any connected network you can > > > > assume that the network manager is able go to some registry website and > > > > grab a guaranteed unique prefix. > > > > > > Ideally, yes. But that doesn't solve all the real world problems - see > > > the Hain/Templin draft. > > > > Which requirement are you referring to? > > > > I don't see any requirement for (even slightly) ambiguous addresses, > > aside from the case where it is, for whatever reason, not possible to > > quickly acquire a guaranteed unique limited range address from a central > > registry. > > Exactly! In that case, whatever the reason, a pseudo-random value with a > tiny probability of collision is a fine alternative. You're a confusing person. First you disagree and then you agree. :) MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 11:12:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BICbCM018530; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BICb2Z018525; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BICUCM018510 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BI9nUu026103 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BI9hOw029865 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7BI9gkr083738 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:09:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.8/8.12.3/Submit) id h7BI9fen083737 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:09:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:09:41 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: On the scope discussion Message-ID: <20030811180941.GC70789@sunet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, The scope discussion is flawed, held in the wrong forum and should cease. The charter -- according to the web page -- says: "The primary focus of the IPv6 w.g. is to complete the standardization of the IPv6 protocols." Consequently, the wg is an Internet Area working group; *not* an Ops WG. We have reached (albeit rough) consensus that the scoped addresses are to be limited to link-local only. But, as far as I can tell, the scope discussion has not terminated, but instead ended up in a swamp where implementors and protocol architects are trying to teach operators how to run their networks, by inventing useless management complications that neither will contribute to the simple, smooth operation of an IPv6 Internet, nor assist in securing hosts against evil-minded attacks. Let's look at the some of the core arguments: * "Non-routable prefixes are inherently safe". Perhaps. One could rewrite this to: "Non-routed prefixes are inherently safe". If I route a part of my /48 only in my IGP, and blackhole it in my border routers, I have created a non-routed prefix, as long as my border devices can throw packets. (There is overwhelming operational experience that says "routers can drop packets".) In terms of "scope" this so treated global prefix chunk walks like a site-local, talks like a site-local, is safe like a site-local[0] but lacks the need for extra scope- checking code. * "Renumbering is hard". Well, stop whining and help work on the renumbering drafts instead. I have not renumbered any v6 networks yet, but have done a fair bit of v4 network restruction. To me, the solution lies in abandoning the identifier overloading that takes place when people configure applications to use IP addresses directly, and instead apply suitable layers of abstraction. Allowing people to preserve the overloading by making it "convenient" to keep the address for long times is a step in the wrong direction. To me, this looks like material for an operational discussion, that should result in two BCP documents, "Practices for controlled limitation of node reachability in IP networks" and "IPv6 Network address plan design with renumbering in mind.", none of which look like Internet area documents but instead like Ops stuff. May I humbly suggest that the people so greatly concerned with how networks are to be operated go and write these BCPen in an Ops group, and leave the crippling featurism out of the IP protocol. Best regards, -- M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead. [0] Maybe. I help run a pretty large multi-AS network, edge and core mixed, the uses more and more IPv6. We have tried, but can't come up with any reasons for inherently crippled prefixes (we are at times way too good at crippling the useful ones ourselves...), so we can't really tell whether they are useful, they just do not seem so. --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/N9vl02/pMZDM1cURAkcuAJ4wzhxYd8qvFlYztIYNAX4hz+mbUgCfTdFc i7QOemtw92CbYxiWY8xtRA4= =snAn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --adJ1OR3c6QgCpb/j-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 11:35:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BIZUCM019405; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BIZUiP019404; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (new-engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BIZKCM019397 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BIWdV7007883 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BIWX5w015255 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7BIWUpp021167; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGZ11278; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id LAA01643; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16183.57661.774520.873470@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:32:29 -0700 (PDT) To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: "Michel Py" , Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14D7@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14D7@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bound, Jim writes: > Even better yes. They "can't". So how does one accomplish this? Since there's plenty of $$$ to be made for !NEVER, am I to believe that the IETF has a new found ability to transport moral turpitude over IP? Mike > /jim > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > >Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:12 PM > >To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside > > > > > >Jim, > > > >> Jim Bound wrote: > >> If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then all > >> is fine. Thats the bottom line. > > > >I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but making > >sure that they can't. > > > >Michel. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 11:44:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BIi0CM019700; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BIi08A019697; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BIhsCM019681 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BIfDUu007778 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BIf7RI025186 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:41:07 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:41:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Let's abolish scope [Re: Unicast scope field (was: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing)] Thread-Index: AcNgBuOM3h4ksRI9ROqWif1+7NS9eQAKxOPA From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7BIhuCM019683 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Quite correct. What I'm pushing back on is the idea that three > levels of scope (link, local, global) capture much of anything > useful. If we were talking about scope between say 0 and 255, > where 0 means link, 255 means global, and 1..254 are user > defined, we might be able to define something of value to > enterprise network operators. Sounds good, but do you think that moving the scope definition to the user will bring any breakthrough in getting this new scoped architecture doc out of the door though? I have not thought much about it but the initial reaction is that it would make things even worse. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 13:14:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BKEsCM022649; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BKEq1m022646; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BKEkCM022630 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BKC5Uu010960 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BKBxUo029041 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:12:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.31]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00193 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030811160506.0564cfa8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:10:53 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: IPv6 Mailing List Volume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi All, Last week was a very busy week on the IPv6 mailing list, with well over 300 messages. I've included the statistics below. At this volume, it is very likely that many IPv6 mailing list members are failing to keep up with the list. If you appear as a frequent poster in the list below, please consider slowing down your posting rate and/or responding to fewer posts. In general, you are more likely to influence people with one carefully considered post than with many quick responses. Thanks, Margaret Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 9.55% | 32 | 10.39% | 182250 | alh-ietf@tndh.net 6.87% | 23 | 8.16% | 143094 | brc@zurich.ibm.com 8.36% | 28 | 6.67% | 116916 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us 8.06% | 27 | 6.53% | 114451 | moore@cs.utk.edu 5.37% | 18 | 4.19% | 73538 | leifj@it.su.se 4.78% | 16 | 4.34% | 76132 | lear@cisco.com 3.88% | 13 | 4.35% | 76349 | mat@cisco.com 3.28% | 11 | 4.60% | 80712 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com 2.99% | 10 | 2.64% | 46224 | tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk 2.69% | 9 | 2.73% | 47793 | alain.durand@sun.com 2.69% | 9 | 2.46% | 43094 | pekkas@netcore.fi 2.39% | 8 | 2.50% | 43815 | paf@cisco.com 2.39% | 8 | 2.39% | 41973 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com 2.09% | 7 | 2.47% | 43306 | ipv6@nosense.org 2.39% | 8 | 2.17% | 37996 | aidan.williams@motorola.com 2.09% | 7 | 2.28% | 39959 | mrw@windriver.com 2.09% | 7 | 2.12% | 37103 | kruse@ohio.edu 2.09% | 7 | 2.07% | 36241 | fredrik@packetfront.com 1.79% | 6 | 2.09% | 36718 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com 1.49% | 5 | 1.93% | 33791 | jordi.palet@consulintel.es 1.19% | 4 | 1.17% | 20480 | huitema@windows.microsoft.com 1.49% | 5 | 0.83% | 14631 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net 0.90% | 3 | 1.26% | 22167 | todd@fries.net 0.90% | 3 | 1.16% | 20298 | nir.arad@il.marvell.com 0.60% | 2 | 1.36% | 23917 | pbarany@nortelnetworks.com 0.90% | 3 | 0.88% | 15479 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com 0.90% | 3 | 0.86% | 15095 | mansaxel@sunet.se 0.90% | 3 | 0.85% | 14930 | ericlklein@softhome.net 0.90% | 3 | 0.84% | 14788 | rdroms@cisco.com 0.90% | 3 | 0.80% | 13997 | zefram@fysh.org 0.90% | 3 | 0.80% | 13954 | narten@us.ibm.com 0.90% | 3 | 0.65% | 11406 | ipng-incoming@danlan.com 0.60% | 2 | 0.93% | 16289 | bzill@microsoft.com 0.60% | 2 | 0.92% | 16094 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp 0.60% | 2 | 0.70% | 12196 | zhang.yibo@jp.panasonic.com 0.60% | 2 | 0.64% | 11166 | chirayu@chirayu.org 0.60% | 2 | 0.63% | 11047 | gih@telstra.net 0.60% | 2 | 0.60% | 10509 | jeroen@unfix.org 0.60% | 2 | 0.52% | 9042 | michael@mielke.cc 0.60% | 2 | 0.48% | 8432 | lerik@nolink.net 0.30% | 1 | 0.78% | 13657 | kre@munnari.oz.au 0.60% | 2 | 0.43% | 7570 | itojun@iijlab.net 0.60% | 2 | 0.42% | 7407 | matthew.ford@bt.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.49% | 8584 | fred.templin@nokia.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.43% | 7543 | george+ipng@m5p.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.42% | 7335 | h.soliman@flarion.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.40% | 6931 | sebastien.roy@sun.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.28% | 4963 | dthaler@windows.microsoft.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.27% | 4777 | dfawcus@cisco.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.26% | 4498 | nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.22% | 3770 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.21% | 3735 | dean@ipnet6.org 0.30% | 1 | 0.20% | 3594 | leo@ubiobio.cl 0.30% | 1 | 0.20% | 3475 | sommerfeld@east.sun.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.20% | 3462 | lha@stacken.kth.se 0.30% | 1 | 0.19% | 3345 | dev.dhas@kcl.ac.uk 0.30% | 1 | 0.17% | 3028 | sob@harvard.edu 0.30% | 1 | 0.17% | 2979 | naiming@redback.com 0.30% | 1 | 0.16% | 2869 | sra@hactrn.net 0.30% | 1 | 0.14% | 2430 | brian@innovationslab.net --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 335 |100.00% | 1753324 | Total -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 13:45:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BKjkCM023596; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BKjkMs023595; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BKjeCM023585 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BKgwUu022335 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BKgqm5023000 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:42:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7BKgd728766; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:42:39 +0200 Message-ID: <3F37FFBF.3090304@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:42:39 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mans Nilsson CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: On the scope discussion References: <20030811180941.GC70789@sunet.se> In-Reply-To: <20030811180941.GC70789@sunet.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mans Nilsson wrote: >Folks, > >The scope discussion is flawed, held in the wrong forum and should cease. > > Yes. Please. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 15:15:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BMFOCM026183; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BMFNDw026182; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BMFJCM026175 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BMCcUu022595 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlrel8.hp.com (atlrel8.hp.com [156.153.255.206]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BMCXUo004296 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:12:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xatlrelay1.atl.hp.com (xatlrelay1.atl.hp.com [15.45.89.190]) by atlrel8.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E952B1C015D5 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xatlbh2.atl.hp.com (xatlbh2.atl.hp.com [15.45.89.187]) by xatlrelay1.atl.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDBB1C009CB for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by xatlbh2.atl.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:12:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: "AGARWAL,SWATI (HP-FtCollins,ex1)" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Ping program using IPv6 on Windows Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:12:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi! I am not getting any success writing an IPv6 Ping program on Windows. Does anyone have a sample program for that? Regards Swati -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 16:06:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BN6MCM027430; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BN6MAc027429; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BN6GCM027419 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BN3ZUu010289 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BN3UNj022129 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7BN3DP31805; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:13 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308112303> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdhklDjA; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:12 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030811160001.021f11d0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:01:57 -0700 To: "Bound, Jim" From: Bob Hinden Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D14C0@tayexc13.americas .cpqcorp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, At 07:18 AM 8/9/2003, Bound, Jim wrote: > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > > , a specific > > alternative to > > site-local addresses draft > > > > (accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF) > >Why do we need both of these? We just need the hinden work. The >templin/hain work could be INFO or BCP with some fixing? > >Is that the thought? Yes, that is the plan. The hain-templin document would be published as Informational. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 16:42:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BNgGCM028108; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7BNgFKS028107; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7BNg8CM028099 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7BNdQUu020747 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ip166.usw12.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.253.166]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BNdLm5014009 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:39:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ran.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19mMFu-000KAl-VQ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:39:15 -0700 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:39:14 -0700 To: Mans Nilsson Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: On the scope discussion Message-Id: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk bingo! > The scope discussion is flawed, held in the wrong forum and should cease. > > The charter -- according to the web page -- says: "The primary focus > of the IPv6 w.g. is to complete the standardization of the IPv6 > protocols." Consequently, the wg is an Internet Area working group; > *not* an Ops WG. > > We have reached (albeit rough) consensus that the scoped addresses > are to be limited to link-local only. > > But, as far as I can tell, the scope discussion has not terminated, > but instead ended up in a swamp where implementors and protocol > architects are trying to teach operators how to run their networks, > by inventing useless management complications that neither will > contribute to the simple, smooth operation of an IPv6 Internet, nor > assist in securing hosts against evil-minded attacks. > > Let's look at the some of the core arguments: > > * "Non-routable prefixes are inherently safe". Perhaps. One could rewrite > this to: "Non-routed prefixes are inherently safe". If I route a part= > of > my /48 only in my IGP, and blackhole it in my border routers, I have > created a non-routed prefix, as long as my border devices can throw > packets. (There is overwhelming operational experience that says > "routers can drop packets".) In terms of "scope" this so treated > global prefix chunk walks like a site-local, talks like a site-local, > is safe like a site-local[0] but lacks the need for extra scope- > checking code. > > * "Renumbering is hard". Well, stop whining and help work on the > renumbering drafts instead. I have not renumbered any v6 networks yet, > but have done a fair bit of v4 network restruction. To me, the solution > lies in abandoning the identifier overloading that takes place when > people configure applications to use IP addresses directly, and > instead apply suitable layers of abstraction. Allowing people to > preserve the overloading by making it "convenient" to keep the address > for long times is a step in the wrong direction. > > To me, this looks like material for an operational discussion, that > should result in two BCP documents, "Practices for controlled > limitation of node reachability in IP networks" and "IPv6 Network > address plan design with renumbering in mind.", none of which look > like Internet area documents but instead like Ops stuff. > > May I humbly suggest that the people so greatly concerned with how > networks are to be operated go and write these BCPen in an Ops > group, and leave the crippling featurism out of the IP protocol. > > Best regards, > -- > M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist > +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE > > We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead. > > [0] Maybe. I help run a pretty large multi-AS network, edge and > core mixed, the uses more and more IPv6. We have tried, but can't > come up with any reasons for inherently crippled prefixes (we are > at times way too good at crippling the useful ones ourselves...), > so we can't really tell whether they are useful, they just do not > seem so. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 22:07:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57XCM005317; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C57WSF005315; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57PCM005300 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C54hV7017919 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C54bPr018050 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:04:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:37 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , Cc: Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7C57PCM005301 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Listen Andrew, I am sort of impressed by your tennacity (if > that is the > word I > am looking for) but writing a loop through a table does not quite > constitute > "running code". You actually need to use this in an application and > demonstrate > its utility on the Internet. My guess is that your > application will be > uselessly > slow when confronted with multiple choices to try if several > of them are unreachable. I look forward (sort of :-)) to > hearing about your further > explorations. Uselessly slow is a local decision. If that is the case for your network, then by all means, don't use these addresses. For others, speed is less of a concern than other attributes. Please stop trying to force a single operational model on everyone. We need to provide tools that meet the requirements, not keep claiming the requirements are invalid. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 22:07:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57bCM005326; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C57bdW005325; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57QCM005308 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C54iUu000391 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C54cPr018055 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:41 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Pekka Savola'" Cc: "'Mans Nilsson'" , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <07b101c3608f$18f0a600$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > Why exactly is advertising the aggregate a problem? The > nodes will filter > out those sources they are auto-configured not to speak to > before even > seeing any maliscious packets. You clearly trust your filter configuration manager. Not everyone does, and there is ample 'operational failure from typo' evidence to back up their mistrust. The point is that if there is no route, there is nothing that will need to be filtered. The security paranoid will both remove routes, and install filters, on the belief that failures will not occur in both at the same time. Despite the noise about not providing security, these are two mechanisms used in basic layered security models. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 22:08:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57sCM005348; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C57sID005347; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C57QCM005307 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C54jV7017934 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C54dPr018063 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:04:39 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: "'Keith Moore'" , , , Subject: RE: local vs. nonlocal address stability ( was Re: apps people? ) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <07b001c3608f$183ac380$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F3436FE.2070409@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7C57hCM005331 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > You should spend some time in the academic world. In most > countries the academic institutions are essentially companies > offering education and research on a competitive market. > There is not inherent difference and real money is just as > much at stake. I have been in the R&E world, and no the level of need is not the same. Yes academic institutions are businesses, and need sufficient stability to maintain the cash flow. They are not funded to maintain stability necessary to support a $4M/hr incoming cash flow rate. People tend to get really paranoid when it is cheaper to hire a small army to replace you, than suffer a 20 min outage. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 22:36:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C5apCM005412; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C5apI0005411; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C5ahCM005404 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C5XuUu016508 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C5XoNj006134 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (rsdhcp13.telstra.net [203.50.0.207]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7C5SQRc098053; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:28:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030812152139.00b91458@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:27:54 +1000 To: Eliot Lear , Nir Arad From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F369C82.1090608@cisco.com> References: <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F2ECC35.5090901@sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030806202606.01901aa0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030807063436.00b38298@kahuna.telstra.net> <3F324BA7.60E333A8@zurich.ibm.com> <01c201c35f55$c82bfa10$5801040a@lt38> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 12:26 PM 10/08/2003 -0700, Eliot Lear wrote: >If on the other hand, as Geoff states in his draft, and some people seem >to be implying, that these addresses could be used as some sort of end >point identifier outside of the routing system, then we do have a problem. That quote was a quote from the Hinden/Haberman draft "These addresses are also candidates for end-to-end use in some classes of multihoming solutions." The point I was trying to make was that if this was a serious objective, then there was a valid case to be made for assured uniqueness in these addresses rather than assumed statistically likely uniqueness, and if so then I felt that this was not appropriate to use local self-assigned prefixes. Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 11 23:41:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C6fqCM006535; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C6fqRg006534; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C6fmCM006527 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C6d7Uu022098 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C6d0m5017651 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.1]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7C7aJ6D014333 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:36:20 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <04a301c360a5$5647eb10$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: References: Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:42:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Excellent scenario, and a simple solution: The administrator needs to define 2 address scopes. The control device has an address in scope 1. The host has addresses in both scopes 1 and 2, as well as a global unicast address. The DFZ host has an address of scope 2, and a global unicast address. All requirements met. Regards, -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Py" To: "Nir Arad" ; Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space > >>> Nir Arad wrote: > >>> I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes > >>> MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and > >>> destination addresses are not of the same scope. > > >> Michel Py wrote: > >> That would some problems but appears to be unworkable to me. It's > >> not flexible enough. > > > Could you please give a scenario that breaks it? > > > <-------------------- Global Addresses ----------------><- Local addr -> > +-----+ > | ISP | : > +--+--+ : > ! : > +--+---------+ +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ > | Router A : +--|< Firewall+--+--|< Firewall+--+--+ Router B +----+ > +------------+ +----------+ | +----------+ | +----------+ | > : | | | > : +---+--+ +--+---+ +----+----+ > : | DFZ | | Host | | Control | > : | Host | +------+ | Device | > : +------+ +---------+ > ---Site -->:<-------------------------- Site --------------------------> > : > > - Router A is the SBR. > - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to hosts between the internal > firewall and router B, but not to the control devices. > - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to the outside. > - Hosts between the internal firewall and router B need to be able to > talk to everybody. > - Control devices are accessible only from hosts between the internal > firewall and router B. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 00:04:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C74nCM006601; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C74m5W006600; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C74bCM006593 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C71sV7016155 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (13.cust4.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.159.13]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C71lRI010202 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:01:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (13.cust4.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.159.13]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 627913F03F; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:31:47 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:31:46 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Tony Hain" Cc: pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030812163146.341e2858.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <07b101c3608f$18f0a600$70144104@eagleswings> References: <07b101c3608f$18f0a600$70144104@eagleswings> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:03:36 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Pekka Savola wrote: > > Why exactly is advertising the aggregate a problem? The > > nodes will filter > > out those sources they are auto-configured not to speak to > > before even > > seeing any maliscious packets. > > You clearly trust your filter configuration manager. Not everyone does, and > there is ample 'operational failure from typo' evidence to back up their > mistrust. > > The point is that if there is no route, there is nothing that will need to > be filtered. True, but in my experience in a large, multi-departmental govenment network, is it fairly common that end user security / access requirements don't fall neatly along route / prefix boundaries. Typically this is because security has crept into the network, triggered by attachement to the Internet. In government networks, route filtering is a useful tool to have, but mostly it is a "nice to use", because it is too blunt to facilitate the security / access requirements of the end users. Typically, the order of use of available network / transport layer security tools to meet common end-user requirements is : (1) "application" level - ie. filter on TCP / UDP ports, possibly in combination with IPv4 source and / or destination address. (2) network layer - filter IPv4 source and / or destination IPv4 adress. (3) route filtering Service providers, OTOH, protect their end-users by protecting the network itself. Route filtering is one of the primary tools for doing that, so (3) on my enterprise list is one of the (1)s on the service provider list. Since IPv6 prefixes are going to be mapped along the same boundaries as IPv4 prefixes ie., layer 2 broadcast domains, IPv6 route filtering in an government network will be just as dull a tool as it is in IPv4. The security paranoid will both remove routes, and install > filters, on the belief that failures will not occur in both at the same > time. Despite the noise about not providing security, these are two > mechanisms used in basic layered security models. > The security paranoid, at least in an government environment, would *like* to perform route filtering as part of a defense in depth strategy in addition to filtering, but end-user access requirements usually put an end to that idea. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 00:08:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C78KCM006612; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C78KEt006611; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C78DCM006604 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C75BV7017361 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C755Nj011813 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7C74j729697; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:04:48 +0200 Message-ID: <3F38918D.9060405@it.su.se> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:04:45 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >Uselessly slow is a local decision. If that is the case for your network, >then by all means, don't use these addresses. For others, speed is less of a >concern than other attributes. Please stop trying to force a single >operational model on everyone. We need to provide tools that meet the >requirements, not keep claiming the requirements are invalid. > >Tony > > > > I am trying to lower my ranking so I only respond to select messages now :-) This one qualifies. The problem with your argument "use of local addresses is a local decision and is does not affect anyone but you" is false. Address leakages will occur and in more ways that you realise - stack and dns are *not* the only was an address can and *will* travel. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 00:18:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C7IdCM006674; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C7IaS7006673; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C7IVCM006666 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C7FnUu007225 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C7FhUo019894 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:15:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.1]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7C8D26D004508 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:13:02 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <04ef01c360aa$771b71e0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:19:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk You can make it simpler yet: Option 1: Use only one local address scope. Control device has only a scoped address. The host has one scoped address and one global address. The DFZ host has only a global address. Option 2: All have global addresses. Use firewall rules to filter. Regards, -- Nir Arad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nir Arad" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space > Excellent scenario, and a simple solution: > > The administrator needs to define 2 address scopes. > > The control device has an address in scope 1. > The host has addresses in both scopes 1 and 2, as well as a global unicast address. > The DFZ host has an address of scope 2, and a global unicast address. > > All requirements met. > > Regards, > > -- Nir Arad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Py" > To: "Nir Arad" ; > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 6:29 PM > Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space > > > > >>> Nir Arad wrote: > > >>> I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, nodes > > >>> MUST NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and > > >>> destination addresses are not of the same scope. > > > > >> Michel Py wrote: > > >> That would some problems but appears to be unworkable to me. It's > > >> not flexible enough. > > > > > Could you please give a scenario that breaks it? > > > > > > <-------------------- Global Addresses ----------------><- Local addr -> > > +-----+ > > | ISP | : > > +--+--+ : > > ! : > > +--+---------+ +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ > > | Router A : +--|< Firewall+--+--|< Firewall+--+--+ Router B +----+ > > +------------+ +----------+ | +----------+ | +----------+ | > > : | | | > > : +---+--+ +--+---+ +----+----+ > > : | DFZ | | Host | | Control | > > : | Host | +------+ | Device | > > : +------+ +---------+ > > ---Site -->:<-------------------------- Site --------------------------> > > : > > > > - Router A is the SBR. > > - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to hosts between the internal > > firewall and router B, but not to the control devices. > > - DFZ hosts need to be able to talk to the outside. > > - Hosts between the internal firewall and router B need to be able to > > talk to everybody. > > - Control devices are accessible only from hosts between the internal > > firewall and router B. > > > > Michel. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 02:28:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C9SlCM010413; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7C9Sl2O010412; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7C9SfCM010405 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7C9PxUu006033 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.packetfront.com ([192.121.165.3]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7C9PqRI025930 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:25:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.11] (helo=Mtw10) by mailhost.packetfront.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19mVP4-0007TH-00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:25:18 +0200 From: "Fredrik Nyman" Organization: PacketFront Sweden AB To: "Tony Hain" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:19:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: apps people? Reply-to: fredrik@packetfront.com CC: "'Mans Nilsson'" , Message-ID: <3F38CD2E.14429.B9D57E79@localhost> In-reply-to: <07b101c3608f$18f0a600$70144104@eagleswings> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On 11 Aug 2003 at 22:03, Tony Hain wrote: > Pekka Savola wrote: > > Why exactly is advertising the aggregate a problem? The > > nodes will filter > > out those sources they are auto-configured not to speak to > > before even > > seeing any maliscious packets. > > You clearly trust your filter configuration manager. Not everyone does, and > there is ample 'operational failure from typo' evidence to back up their > mistrust. > > The point is that if there is no route, there is nothing that will need to > be filtered. The security paranoid will both remove routes, and install > filters, on the belief that failures will not occur in both at the same > time. Despite the noise about not providing security, these are two > mechanisms used in basic layered security models. Maybe the router vendor should develop appropriate tools to let the user verify that the filers work as expected and let it be up to the user to decide if he want to use the vendor with or the vendor without such tools and leave the flexibility in the design? "Do you want subnet vault.acme.com announced to all the hackers out there [y/N]?" -- Fredrik Nyman PacketFront Sweden AB http://www.packetfront.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 07:56:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CEtsCM019366; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CEtrMJ019365; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CEthCM019346 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CEr0V7007986 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CEqsnU027413 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5779D14019; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08714-15; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AC613FC9; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:51:12 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Uselessly slow is a local decision. If that is the case for your network, > then by all means, don't use these addresses. For others, speed is less of a > concern than other attributes. Please stop trying to force a single > operational model on everyone. We need to provide tools that meet the > requirements, not keep claiming the requirements are invalid. For applications to have a large market, there needs to be uniformity in how networks operate. Please stop trying to force application developes to cope with dysfunctional networks. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 08:21:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CFLfCM019850; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CFLfpi019849; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CFLZCM019842 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CFIqUu020938 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CFIlnU013038 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: apps people? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:18:47 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: apps people? Thread-Index: AcNgpqvTc5FE2ZUcSCaQG9q6yqn6hAAPhWyA From: "Michel Py" To: "Mark Smith" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7CFLaCM019843 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Mark Smith wrote: > The security paranoid, at least in an government environment, > would *like* to perform route filtering as part of a defense > in depth strategy in addition to filtering, but end-user > access requirements usually put an end to that idea. All government networks that I have worked on use route filtering: they have static routes on some parts and especially at the edge. That's the ultimate form of route filtering. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 08:52:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CFqjCM020729; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CFqj09020728; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (co-umpk11-03 [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CFqeCM020720 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CFnwV7023188 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palrel12.hp.com (palrel12.hp.com [156.153.255.237]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CFnrnU002698 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xparelay1.ptp.hp.com (xparelay1.ptp.hp.com [15.1.28.62]) by palrel12.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0FC1C00CBD for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xpabh1.ptp.hp.com (xpabh1.ptp.hp.com [15.1.28.60]) by xparelay1.ptp.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B551004B99 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by xpabh1.ptp.hp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:52 -0700 Message-ID: From: "AGARWAL,SWATI (HP-FtCollins,ex1)" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:49:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Here are the basic excerpts of my program without the error checking. I am getting an error 10035 from the recvfrom which indicates WSAEWOULDBLOCK which means that there is no data can be read from the m_Sockfd socket. Does anyone know what the problem might be? I even tried doing a wait before doing the recvfrom. Ping6 program for the IPv6 address being tested works promptly from the command line. Regards Swati PORGRAM: int error; WORD wVersionRequested; WSADATA wsaData; wVersionRequested = MAKEWORD(2,2); WSAStartup(wVersionRequested, &wsaData); m_Sockfd = WSASocket(PF_INET6, SOCK_RAW, IPPROTO_ICMPV6,NULL,0,0); int n = setsockopt(m_Sockfd, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVBUF, &size, sizeof(size)); memset( m_SendBuff, 0, 64); memset( m_RecvBuff, 0, 64); len = sendto(m_Sockfd, m_SendBuff, hdr_len, 0, m_Ai->ai_addr, m_Ai->ai_addrlen) memset(m_Sarecv, 0, m_Len); int n = recvfrom(m_Sockfd, m_RecvBuff, sizeof(m_RecvBuff), 0, m_Sarecv, &m_Len); -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 09:15:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGFtCM021467; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CGFrK3021466; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGFkCM021459 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CGD4Uu007015 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CGCxkZ021658 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:12:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Thread-Index: AcNgozR+wENSIBZvRy6BxqXaVRlEBAASOMBw From: "Michel Py" To: "Nir Arad" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7CGFnCM021460 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Nir Arad wrote: > Excellent scenario, and a simple solution: > The administrator needs to define 2 address scopes. > The control device has an address in scope 1. > The host has addresses in both scopes 1 and 2, as well as a global > unicast address. The DFZ host has an address of scope 2, and a > global unicast address. > All requirements met. Then unless each host has two NICs (which is not acceptable as it doubles the size of the local network) the host interface is in two scopes simultaneously which means the entire VLAN spans two scopes which makes your proposal that scopes don't communicate together void. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 09:16:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGGiCM021480; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CGGhYT021479; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGGZCM021472 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CGDrUu007251 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CGDk73009106 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7CGDech221570; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:13:40 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7CGDdx0264914; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:13:39 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA45762; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:13:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:13:34 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michel Py CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: PI, routeable PI, References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk A considered reply to a couple of postings: Under the subject RE: site-local observations from the outside Michel Py wrote: > > Brian, > > >> Michel Py wrote: > >> It's a matter of risk: If I use the > >> Hinden/Haberman draft as private addresses, and if it ends up > >> being perverted as PI, my entire network design goes to the > >> trash. If I hijack a random prefix for private addresses, the > >> risk of collisions although not null is a lot less. > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I am puzzled by your last two sentences. Can you be more > > precise about why your design would be trashed > > Because then the addresses used on the private network would be routable > PI, which is exactly what network designers don't want when they design > a private network with private addresses. I still don't understand the difference between using a Hinden/Haberman address or a hijacked address as a routeable prefix. As we know, the algorithm involves giving money to an ISP to announce the prefix. There's no way we can stop that happening. It's going to happen whatever the IETF writes down. I'm not happy about that, but I'm not happy about global warming. If an enterprise decides to switch off the filtering of "local" prefixes in their border router, and pays their ISPs to announce them, that part of the game is over. > > >From another post: > > > If by PI you mean *globally routeable* PI, I am not holding > > my breath, and I believe it would be a serious mistake to > > delay any decisions while waiting for PI. > > If you mean non-globally-routeable PI, Hinden/Haberman is a > > fine solution. > > What you refuse to acknowledge is that there is a high probability that > the Hinden/Haberman draft will be misused as globally routable PI. There's a 100% probability it will be used for inter-enterprise routing (i.e. exceptions such as VPNs to normal routing). There's probably a 100% probability that some enterprises will pay ISPs to announce /48s into the DFZ (as mentioned above). But I don't think that is a characteristic of the Hinden/Haberman draft. It will happen whatever we define. The trick is to make it an exception rather than the rule. > As > so, it can't be used for private addresses. I'm not the only one that > says this. No, you're not, but it doesn't follow. It can be used for private addresses by default. But there is no enforcement mechanism. > > Network administrators don't buy that addresses in the Hinden/Haberman > draft will remain non-routable because they will be the first jumping in > the train to make them routable in the first place. Yes. In fact that statement has to be true for any solution satisfying the Hain/Templin "requirements." I think we have to deal with it. > > > and why random hijacking is less risky than a > > pseudo-random generator? > > It's not; it has everything to do with the purpose of the prefix, not > with the way the address was picked. The risk of collision for an > address that does not get out of the site is a lot less (specifically, a > merge) than for an address that reaches the outside. That's certainly true, but I think the risk is negligible anyway. Under the subject RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin addressspace, Michel Py wrote: > Brian, > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I kept reading, because if these things are created they *will* > > certainly end up being used as end point identifiers. > > Can you develop why? In the absolute I can find lots of reasons but I > don't see why the identifier/locator solution would prefer using these > vs. having its own prefix. If I have an IP address for my machine that is FC00::1:1: why wouldn't I use that as a transport address in a multihomed session? I can't see a downside. If I'm worried about privacy, I can use RFC 3041 to generate the address. > > I agree that they would be used for NAT though, because NAT does not > need anything to be invented. Indeed not. Whatever we do, NAT6 is lurking. Brian > > Michel. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 09:22:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGLnCM021612; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CGLnUg021611; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CGLcCM021593 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CGItUu009090 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CGInrh027020 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:18:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7CGIis03359; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:18:44 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308121618> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdpoSXgT; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:18:41 PDT Message-ID: <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:26:06 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: Tony Hain , leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, Quick question - you have been nay-saying on local-use addressing for as long as I can recall, but do you truly have an alternate proposal that will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected sites, sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, multi-homed sites, etc? I asked others the same question and they mumbled something about HIP but ducked my pointed questions as to how soon we could expect to see an alternate proposal. I'm trying to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I continue to see nothing of substance coming from the anti local addressing camp. So, unless there is some grand solution currently being architected in some skunkworks project out of the public eye, are you really doing anything more than just empolying stalling tactics? (And if there is such a stealth mode project in the works, I think it high time that it be fully disclosed to the community in good faith.) Truly curious, Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Keith Moore wrote: >>Uselessly slow is a local decision. If that is the case for your network, >>then by all means, don't use these addresses. For others, speed is less of a >>concern than other attributes. Please stop trying to force a single >>operational model on everyone. We need to provide tools that meet the >>requirements, not keep claiming the requirements are invalid. >> >> > >For applications to have a large market, there needs to be uniformity in how >networks operate. Please stop trying to force application developes to cope >with dysfunctional networks. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 10:37:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CHauCM024659; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CHatfq024658; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CHalCM024640 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CHY5Uu007411 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CHY02O019513 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJI0005MOSNXL@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJI00G8VOSMFA@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:33:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:33:58 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Michel Py , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F392506.7070508@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >>What you refuse to acknowledge is that there is a high probability that >>the Hinden/Haberman draft will be misused as globally routable PI. >> >> > >There's a 100% probability it will be used for inter-enterprise >routing (i.e. exceptions such as VPNs to normal routing). >There's probably a 100% probability that some enterprises will >pay ISPs to announce /48s into the DFZ (as mentioned above). >But I don't think that is a characteristic of the Hinden/Haberman >draft. It will happen whatever we define. The trick is to make >it an exception rather than the rule. > I agree with your premise, there is a 100% probability that some of those PI /48 will be routed in the DFZ. I disagree with your conclusion, the trick is to make sure that _when_ this happens (and not if), it does not create chaos. What I dislike most about the Hinden/Haberman draft is the "anonymity" of the randomly generated prefixes. As they are not registered anywhere, debugging will be more difficult. Today, we have two major tools when we'd like to see where an address is coming from: - the routing system, with BGP annoucement and/or traceroute - the whois database. Using the Hinden/Haberman draft, one of those tools will go away. So, as I wrote in this forum about a week ago, what I'd like to see in that area is simply provider independant, registry allocated, easy accessible (very low registry fees, no question asked) public address space, and then forget about the "scope" discussion which is an operational/business issue. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 10:58:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CHwHCM025149; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CHwHZ7025148; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CHw3CM025141 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CHtLV7007486 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CHtGkZ024252 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0AB14032; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28011-03; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B0714019; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:55:05 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Fred Templin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Quick question - you have been nay-saying on local-use addressing for > as long as I can recall, but do you truly have an alternate proposal > that will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected sites, disconnected sites - should use some sort of PI space - either globally-unique or probably-unique intermittently-connected sites with stable addresses - should use PA space, even when disconnected. nomadic sites, and intermittently-connected sites without stable addresses - should use mobileIP externally. I am working on a proposal to allow them to use PI addresses internally without disrupting the operation of applications. multi-homed sites - this is being worked on by another group. granted it is a difficult problem. > I'm trying to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I continue to > see nothing of substance coming from the anti local addressing camp. that's because a few people are still trying to push SL. note that SL doesn't "solve" the above problems either. > So, unless there is some grand solution currently being architected in > some skunkworks project out of the public eye, are you really doing > anything more than just empolying stalling tactics? not stalling. I want the group to focus its energy in useful directions, not in directions already shown to be counterproductive. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 11:37:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CIbjCM026234; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CIbiLN026233; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CIbXCM026215 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CIYpV7020836 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CIYkkZ017895 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7CIYep27175; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:40 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308121834> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdRmECCv; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:34:38 PDT Message-ID: <3F3934FB.60502@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:42:03 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >multi-homed sites - this is being worked on by another group. granted >it is a difficult problem. > And, what are the solutions being proposed by that "other" group? (Don't worry; I know about multi6.) Is it HIP? Is it globally-routable PI? Is it something else? As they say at PacBell Park: "You can't know the players without a program!" Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 11:50:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CIobCM026693; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CIoab4026692; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CIoOCM026682 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CIlgUu002295 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CIlb2O002629 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C788B14042; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00979-05; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2770313FF7; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:47:35 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Fred Templin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030812144735.5a6e35f9.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F3934FB.60502@iprg.nokia.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F3934FB.60502@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >multi-homed sites - this is being worked on by another group. > >granted it is a difficult problem. > > > And, what are the solutions being proposed by that "other" group? > (Don't worry; I know about multi6.) Is it HIP? Is it globally-routable > PI? Is it something else? I'm not caught up with that group enough to know. I do know it's not within scope for this group. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 12:12:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJCGCM027189; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CJCGmM027188; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJC9CM027181 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CJ9RV7002685 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CJ9Lwh016358 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:09:21 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: PI, routeable PI, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:09:20 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PI, routeable PI, Thread-Index: AcNg7LT+OlSQ2iv8Q9qvunaA8DJZTQAA/Ahw From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian Carpenter" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7CJCCCM027182 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, >> Michel Py wrote: >> Because then the addresses used on the private network would be >> routable PI, which is exactly what network designers don't want >> when they design a private network with private addresses. > Brian Carpenter wrote: > I still don't understand the difference between using a > Hinden/Haberman address or a hijacked address as a routeable > prefix. Fundamentally, not much and I do agree that the Hinden/Haberman draft is preferable in any "localized" situation, but I see you still are not getting my point, likely due to my poor wording, I apologize being so heavy. Allow me to try in other words: Short try at it: For local use only, it is less risky to hijack a random prefix than to use Hinden/Haberman, not because Hinden/Haberman is inherently risky, but because the risk that it will be used for another purpose than local use is high. Long try at it: - The enterprise has two unfulfilled needs: globally routable PI and private addresses. - Whatever we can say about it, the network administrator gets to pick what becomes of the Hinden/Haberman draft, globally routable PI _or_ private address. The prefix can't serve both purposes at the same time for reasons explained 20 times on this list already. - Since the only thing that can solve the PI need short term is Hinden/Haberman, that's what it becomes, leaving the network administrator with no other choice but to hijack for private address use. This is doubly crappy, but perverting Hinden/Haberman is a whole lot better than no PI at all, and the ugliness of hijacking as long as it is contained within the private network does not exist because nobody can see it :-) I'm not saying hijacking is good, what I'm saying is that it's not ugly enough. Look at it this way: hijacking a random IPv6 prefix is a lot safer (WRT collision risk) than using RFC1918. So yes, the network administrator would rather use Hinden/Haberman as private addresses instead of hijacking, but this is overruled by the PI need. In short: the Hinden/Haberman draft does not solve the private address need because what it creates is globally routable PI, whether we like it or not. > There's a 100% probability it will be used for inter-enterprise > routing (i.e. exceptions such as VPNs to normal routing). Routing it over the Internet (without a VPN) for inter-entrerprise communication would also be perfectly legitimate, host-to-host IPSEC for example. Then the line between it and global PI ceases to exist. > There's probably a 100% probability that some enterprises will > pay ISPs to announce /48s into the DFZ (as mentioned above). > But I don't think that is a characteristic of the > Hinden/Haberman draft. It will happen whatever we define. The > trick is to make it an exception rather than the rule. What do we have WRT this except a MUST or MUST NOT in a draft? >> As so, it can't be used for private addresses. I'm not the >> only one that says this. > No, you're not, but it doesn't follow. It can be used for > private addresses by default. But there is no enforcement > mechanism. If you prefer; that's because we took out the two known enforcements mechanisms: ambiguity and scope. We all agree that ambiguity is bad and I would not have too many problems letting scope go if we had a replacement enforcement mechanism, but the bottom line is that we don't have one. >>> and why random hijacking is less risky than a >>> pseudo-random generator? >> It's not; it has everything to do with the purpose of the prefix, >> not with the way the address was picked. The risk of collision >> for an address that does not get out of the site is a lot less >> (specifically, a merge) than for an address that reaches the >> outside. > That's certainly true, but I think the risk is negligible anyway. Let's say it's acceptable, I agree. >>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> I kept reading, because if these things are created they *will* >>> certainly end up being used as end point identifiers. >> Michel Py wrote: >> Can you develop why? In the absolute I can find lots of reasons >> but I don't see why the identifier/locator solution would prefer >> using these vs. having its own prefix. > If I have an IP address for my machine that is > FC00::1:1: > why wouldn't I use that as a transport address in a multihomed > session? I can't see a downside. There are two, a big one and a small one. The big one: that space is not aggregatable. Save for id/loc solutions that use DNS as the locator-to-identifier mapping mechanism, there is a long-term scalability need for aggregation, the id/loc mechanism being the extra redirection layer that makes it possible to happen. The small one: it does not register with defense-in-depth that prefers two distinct prefixes. >> I agree that they would be used for NAT though, because >> NAT does not need anything to be invented. > Indeed not. Whatever we do, NAT6 is lurking. I think that we have been collectively reckless about this. There might not be a lot that we can do, but maybe it would be worth having a paragraph in each draft about "does this rush us in the arms of NATv6 or not". Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 12:21:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJLBCM027456; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CJL9I2027455; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJKjCM027442 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CJI3V7006034 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n97.nomadiclab.com (teldanex.hiit.fi [212.68.5.99]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CJHv2O019126 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:17:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nomadiclab.com (polle.local.nikander.com [192.168.0.193]) by n97.nomadiclab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027941C; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:27:29 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <3F393D71.10605@nomadiclab.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:18:09 +0300 From: Pekka Nikander User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030801 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Templin Cc: hipsec@honor.trusecure.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Mumbles about HIP (was Re: apps people?) References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred, Fred Templin wrote: > ... but do you truly have an alternate proposal that > will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected sites, sites that > frequently change provider points of attachment, multi-homed sites, > etc? I asked others the same question and they mumbled something > about HIP but ducked my pointed questions as to how soon we could > expect to see an alternate proposal. As far as I see, HIP does not currently provide anything for intermittently-conneted/disconnnected sites. Perhaps it could, but AFAIK nobody has *seriously* considered that question. (My gut feeling is that if HIP was adopted, the nature of this and many other questions would change quite a lot. But that is just an educated guess, at best.) > .... So, > unless there is some grand solution currently being architected in some > skunkworks project out of the public eye ... (And if there is such a stealth > mode project in the works, I think it high time that it be fully disclosed > to the community in good faith.) I don't know about any skunkwork projects. However, since HIP was mentioned, perhaps I should try to clarify the situation. There was a HIP mailing list for a long time @lists.freeswan.org. However, due to hardware problems the list crashed three times during the last year or so, losing its membership at least once, and the archive at least once, too. (I don't remember the details). Anyway, there is now a new HIP mailing list @honor.trusecure.com, see http://honor.trusecure.com/mailman/listinfo/hipsec We tried to subscribe everybody we knew about to the new mailing list, but I am sure some addresses just got lost. If you are interested, please join to the new mailing list. It is currently very low volume, but may get some traffic fairly soon (see below). However, I don't expect it to get anywhere near IPNG volumes... What comes to the architecture and base protocol specs, they are fairly close to be ready for experimental. On the other hand, serious work on multi-homing, mobility, IPv4 NAT traversal and DNS issues has only recently begun, and requires lots of work before completed. As I mentioned at the multi6 meeting in Vienna, there are currently four interoperating implementations, at least two of which also support limited HIP based mobility. At least one even supports mobility between IPv6 and IPv4. I am not aware of any implementations that would seriously support multi-homing, even though some support for that is in draft-nikander-hip-mm-00.txt There are also some discussions going on with some ADs about the possibility of a working group that would produce experimental RFCs. However, it is not clear whether such a group, if created, should be a working group or an IRTF research group. That is an issue that should be discussed fairly soon at the hipsec ML. --Pekka Nikander -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 12:34:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJYkCM027989; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CJYjE5027988; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CJYbCM027978 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CJVtUu016986 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CJVnrh025775 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:31:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7CJVi520300; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:31:44 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308121931> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdXykaNc; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:31:43 PDT Message-ID: <3F39409F.96974078@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:31:43 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alain Durand CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, References: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> <3F392506.7070508@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello Alain, Alain Durand wrote: > So, as I wrote in this forum about a week ago, what I'd like > to see in that area is simply provider independant, registry allocated, > easy accessible (very low registry fees, no question asked) > public address space, and then forget about the "scope" discussion > which is an operational/business issue. I almost agree, except that I would insist on "no cost". Low cost is often impossible, since that even a base charge for $0.50 requires invoicing across several continents and purchasing departments and levels of approval. Plus there aren't any lawyers or specious arguments about copyright to pump up the cost argument (I hope!!). I am imagining a URL along the lines of http://www.iana.org/IPv6/local_address_registry/cgi-bin/doit.cgi Is it a worry that someone would have to do some programming for such an IANA web page? I don't think there are any technical details that are difficult. Rate limiting and so on are not very hard to specify. It would even be possible to allocate prefix blocks of different sizes and so on, depending on what the final requirements are determined to be. This can all be done in a scalable way that is guaranteed to last for however many centuries are needed. Regards, Charlie P. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 13:08:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CK8VCM029336; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CK8VhN029333; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CK8MCM029311 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CK5dUu028376 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CK5Y73018042 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:05:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.39]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20506; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030812155946.05912780@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:03:28 -0400 To: "Michel Py" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: PI, routeable PI, Cc: "Brian Carpenter" , In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Michel, At 12:09 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, Michel Py wrote: >- Whatever we can say about it, the network administrator gets to pick >what becomes of the Hinden/Haberman draft, globally routable PI _or_ >private address. The prefix can't serve both purposes at the same time >for reasons explained 20 times on this list already. You may think you've explained this 20 times, but I still don't agree with it... If you don't pay your ISP to route _your_ Hinden/Haberman prefix, it won't be routed. Voila! Private addressing. Why do you care about whether someone else's prefix is globally routed? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 13:16:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKFxCM029614; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CKFxGn029613; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKFiCM029588 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CKD1V7024063 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKCu73020054 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:12:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7CKCZpp004152; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AHA32277; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id NAA03403; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:12:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore Cc: Fred Templin , alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: disconnected In-Reply-To: <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > > Quick question - you have been nay-saying on local-use addressing for > > as long as I can recall, but do you truly have an alternate proposal > > that will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected sites, > > disconnected sites - should use some sort of PI space - either > globally-unique or probably-unique So I have a question: what does "disconnected" really mean? Does it mean people who do not have any internet access whatsoever and never will? Or does it mean people who want parts of their network to be either physcially or through firewalling to be disconnected from some or all of the net? If it's the former, maybe I'm heretical but do we really much care? Back in the bad old days that led to what what's been morphed now into the "documentation prefix", but 10 years ago disconnection from the Internet was pretty much the norm... today though? Should we really fall all over ourselves for individuals/organizations that don't want to pay $9.95/mo and get a PA /48 that they can use to number their disconnected network? If it's the latter... a /48 gives 16 bits of subnets. Surely that's enough to carve out a network or two for their disconnect networks. And even if they changed providers... so what? If it's a disconnected network using the old prefix certainly doesn't _hurt_ anything until... you want to connect it, but if you want to connect a disconnected network you needed to renumber anyway! What am I missing? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 13:22:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKMCCM029901; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CKMCxW029900; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKM4CM029890 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CKJMV7026272 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKJGkZ016289 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7CKJBP05676; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:19:11 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308122019> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdlbK8eP; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:19:09 PDT Message-ID: <3F394D7B.1060709@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:26:35 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Nikander CC: hipsec@honor.trusecure.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Mumbles about HIP (was Re: apps people?) References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <3F393D71.10605@nomadiclab.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Nikander wrote > There was a HIP mailing list for a long time @lists.freeswan.org. > However, due to hardware problems the list crashed three times during > the last year or so, losing its membership at least once, and the > archive at least once, too. (I don't remember the details). Yes, I'm subscribed to that list - since 7/16/2002, actually. There was a pretty healthy amount of traffic between 3/14/03 - 3/26/03 and then it went silent. Since then, I have received two messages - one on 6/29/03 and another on 8/10/03 (only two days ago) - both messages were from you, actually. I never saw any announcement of the new list... > Anyway, there is now a new HIP mailing list @honor.trusecure.com, > see http://honor.trusecure.com/mailman/listinfo/hipsec > We tried to subscribe everybody we knew about to the new mailing > list, but I am sure some addresses just got lost. If you I guess I must have been one of those who just got lost - but isn't it strange I should still be seeing messages on the old list then? > are interested, please join to the new mailing list. It is currently > very low volume, but may get some traffic fairly soon (see below). > However, I don't expect it to get anywhere near IPNG volumes... Gee - maybe *this* is the skunkworks project I have been sensing?! :^} Sure; I'll go ahead and subscribe myself to the new list. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 13:45:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKj1CM000545; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CKixXK000544; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKiiCM000537 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CKg1V7004165 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKftnU017177 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692E014071; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14149-04; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9EA1406F; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:41:54 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: disconnected Message-Id: <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore writes: > > > Quick question - you have been nay-saying on local-use addressing > > > for as long as I can recall, but do you truly have an alternate > > > proposal that will work for intermittently-connected/disconnected > > > sites, > > > > disconnected sites - should use some sort of PI space - either > > globally-unique or probably-unique > > So I have a question: what does "disconnected" > really mean? Does it mean people who do not have > any internet access whatsoever and never will? IMHO a truly disconnected network would have no connectivity to any other net, at least at the present time. If such a network were to acquire Internet access it should renumber, much as if it were a site moving from one ISP to another. there's another useful category of site that has no connectivity to the global/public Internet but does wish to connect to other sites, some of which might connect to the global/public Internet. > Or > does it mean people who want parts of their > network to be either physcially or through > firewalling to be disconnected from some or all of > the net? no, it doesn't mean that. of course if you want an entire network to be isolated you can treat that as a disconnected network. but usually you want to allow some degree of external access to or from some of the hosts on the network. if you do that, you should have global addresses for all of those hosts even if you filter traffic to and from most of them. otherwise you can't really expect apps to work between the "privileged" hosts and the"unprivileged" ones - especially if those apps also involve external hosts. > If it's the former, maybe I'm heretical but do we > really much care? yes, because isolated v4 networks that picked an arbitrary prefix and then later connected to the rest of the net did cause and experience problems. we want them to be able to make a smooth transition. also, some networks that lack connectivitity to the global internet will still want to interconnect with other networks. > If it's the latter... a /48 gives 16 bits of > subnets. Surely that's enough to carve out a > network or two for their disconnect networks. And > even if they changed providers... so what? If > it's a disconnected network using the old prefix > certainly doesn't _hurt_ anything until... you > want to connect it, but if you want to connect a > disconnected network you needed to renumber > anyway! not true. in order to understand whether there's a potential address conflict you need to consider the transitive closure of all connections available to all hosts on the network. if the same address refers to different hosts anywhere in the network then it can still cause problems for apps doing referrals even if the meaning of that address is well-defined for every individual host. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 13:49:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKnGCM000627; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CKnFIu000626; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CKn6CM000616 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CKkNUu011379 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKkI73029675 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D932D14071; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14120-12; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472881404B; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:46:16 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Charles E. Perkins" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Alain.Durand@Sun.COM, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, Message-Id: <20030812164616.4846362e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F39409F.96974078@iprg.nokia.com> References: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> <3F392506.7070508@sun.com> <3F39409F.96974078@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > So, as I wrote in this forum about a week ago, what I'd like > > to see in that area is simply provider independant, registry > > allocated, easy accessible (very low registry fees, no question > > asked) public address space, and then forget about the "scope" > > discussion which is an operational/business issue. > > I almost agree, except that I would insist on "no cost". > Low cost is often impossible, since that even a base charge > for $0.50 requires invoicing across several continents and > purchasing departments and levels of approval. are you saying that the process for obtaining a domain name is already too onerous? seems like this should be an upper bound on the effort required to get a PI prefix. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 14:01:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CL1fCM001313; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CL1fMT001312; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CL1YCM001292 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CKwqUu015957 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKwk2O014262 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:58:47 -0600 (MDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: PI, routable PI, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:58:46 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PI, routable PI, Thread-Index: AcNhDRRGPQqX5gaHQ6ObqATUSPo3KAAA+Xiw From: "Michel Py" To: "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7CL1aCM001298 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, >> Michel Py wrote: >> - Whatever we can say about it, the network administrator gets >> to pick what becomes of the Hinden/Haberman draft, globally >> routable PI _or_ >private address. The prefix can't serve both >> purposes at the same time for reasons explained 20 times on >> this list already. > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > You may think you've explained this 20 times, but I still > don't agree with it... > If you don't pay your ISP to route _your_ Hinden/Haberman > prefix, it won't be routed. Voila! Private addressing. Trouble is, I _want_ to pay my ISP to route my Hinden/Haberman prefix, for three reasons: 1. (legitimate) I want to communicate with the Hinden/Haberman prefix of another enterprise. I could use a VPN/tunnel solution, but it is a lot simpler to do end-to-end IPSEC, which means routing the prefix. 2. It solves my multihoming problem. If the IETF had done anything about multihoming in IPv6 I would not have to pervert the Hinden/Haberman draft. 3. It solves my renumbering problem: I "own" the Hinden/Haberman prefix, and I keep it forever. When I have my IETF hat on, I understand that these solutions are short-sited, but when I have my network manager hat on, I'd do anything that works when I need it. I can always upgrade to a better solution when the IETF comes up with one (wishful thinking). > Why do you care about whether someone else's prefix is > globally routed? Because everyone is going to try doing what I described above, I hope this much is clear given recent postings. Guaranteed. a) It leads to routing table explosion and all the stability issues we are having with v4 today. b) Re-using Bob's terms, this would become a self-regulated system, meaning that in the long run only the rich would be entitled to announce their prefix. Putting aside the ideological debate about the money, this leads us directly to NATv6, because when the money threshold is reached, people that have been using their Hinden/Haberman prefix will keep it and turn to NAT as a replacement of announcing their prefix. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 15:25:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CMPfCM004195; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CMPeeE004194; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CMPMCM004187 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CMMeV7009864 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fries.net (ns0.fries.net [66.210.106.26]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMMX2O028358 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:22:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.fries.net (de4dipbtxe2iggph88zn@localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMMVZC006942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:22:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by shadow.fries.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7CMMPhP017355; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:22:25 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Tony Hain Cc: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Michael Thomas'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Zefram'" Subject: Re: apps people? Message-ID: <20030812222225.GA22881@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <3F3161D3.90708@it.su.se> <041501c35c5d$a6ac27c0$70144104@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <041501c35c5d$a6ac27c0$70144104@eagleswings> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: OpenBSD shadow.fries.net 3.3 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddf@acm.org toddfries@yahoo.com X-IM: toddfries@{AIM,Yahoo} 115268457@ICQ {toddfries,fr[1i]es}@*.irc.fries.net X-Jabber: todd@tipic.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I would think long and hard before I would mandate that my upstream ISP can renumber me as a customer `at a whim'. This screams `DOS' and `exploit haven'. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com Mobile: 405-203-6124 "..in support of free software solutions." Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) Penned by Tony Hain on Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 01:59:38PM -0700, we have: | Leif Johansson wrote: | > Yet another old argument. I remember several opposing voices | > from the SL | > debate. | | Appearing to be primarily from service providers. By my count most of the no | voters were from edge focused people. | | > I am running a large edge network. I have both PI and PA v4 and yet I | > don't see | > the need for site-locals. | | So is all of your space is globally routed without any filtering or | exclusion from routing protocols? Not everyone is in such a lucky position | to have all of their network globally exposed. | | > I think it is time to drop the "silent | > majority" argument. | > | > What edge-network do you run? | | Currently an insignificant one, but in past lives I have been involved in | both large scale edge and core network management. The point is not what you | or I think about the need for local addressing, it is about what the manager | who can't get PI space is going to do. Insufficient resources to justify PI | space does not invalidate their need for internal network stability. | | In the absence of NAT, allowing the ISPs to renumber customer networks at a | whim will ensure 'address-portability' becomes a hot button. We can help | mitigate what would become random PI by providing local stability. We can go | further by providing a 'less-than-perfect' PI. PI will solve most of the | requirements for local space, but by definition can't deal with the | requirement to avoid accidentally becoming part of a routed aggregate. | | Tony | | | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List | IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng | FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng | Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com | -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 15:48:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CMmYCM004660; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1/Submit) id h7CMmYhY004659; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta1+Sun/8.12.10.Beta1) with ESMTP id h7CMmSCM004652 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7CMjkV7020536 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [198.24.6.3]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMje2O011328 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:45:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se (eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.133.51]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMjcAP002645; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:45:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: by eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:45:36 -0500 Message-ID: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0B7@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se> From: "Suresh Krishnan (QB/LMC)" To: "'AGARWAL,SWATI (HP-FtCollins,ex1)'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:45:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Swati, I noticed that you have filled the packet with zeros. You need to fill in at least the icmpv6 header in the packet. I would do it this way struct icmp6_hdr *hdr; char buf[WHATEVER_SIZE]; /* Your transmit buf */ hdr=(struct icmp6_hdr *)buf; hdr->icmp6_type=ICMP6_ECHO_REQUEST; /* If this constant is not defined on your box use 128 */ hdr->icmp6_code=0; hdr->icmp6_cksum=0; hdr->icmp6_seq=; pkt->icmp6_id=; ... Regards Suresh -----Original Message----- From: AGARWAL,SWATI (HP-FtCollins,ex1) [mailto:swati.agarwal@hp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:50 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows Here are the basic excerpts of my program without the error checking. I am getting an error 10035 from the recvfrom which indicates WSAEWOULDBLOCK which means that there is no data can be read from the m_Sockfd socket. Does anyone know what the problem might be? I even tried doing a wait before doing the recvfrom. Ping6 program for the IPv6 address being tested works promptly from the command line. Regards Swati PORGRAM: int error; WORD wVersionRequested; WSADATA wsaData; wVersionRequested = MAKEWORD(2,2); WSAStartup(wVersionRequested, &wsaData); m_Sockfd = WSASocket(PF_INET6, SOCK_RAW, IPPROTO_ICMPV6,NULL,0,0); int n = setsockopt(m_Sockfd, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVBUF, &size, sizeof(size)); memset( m_SendBuff, 0, 64); memset( m_RecvBuff, 0, 64); len = sendto(m_Sockfd, m_SendBuff, hdr_len, 0, m_Ai->ai_addr, m_Ai->ai_addrlen) memset(m_Sarecv, 0, m_Len); int n = recvfrom(m_Sockfd, m_RecvBuff, sizeof(m_RecvBuff), 0, m_Sarecv, &m_Len); -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 20:49:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D3mxU7013140; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D3mxx8013139; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D3mmU7013132 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D3k5Uu010894 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D3k0wh027919 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h7D3jqnj024085; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:45:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-2.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.2]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h7D3jc85021998; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:45:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:45:34 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , Geoff Huston CC: IPng , Darryn Lowe Subject: Distribution of FC00::/8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Guys, Geoff points out in his document that distribution of the "centrally assigned" Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses space FC00::/8 is tricky if the registries all have to coordinate with each other when selection occurs. Also, assigning address blocks seems undesirable because the desire to cripple the aggregability of this address space and hence cripple its global routability. A mechanism for partitioning the available space amongst a set of registries that isn't "block-like" could therefore be a useful thing. A suggestion: IANA can allocate vectors of numbers to each registry that span the entire address space. For example: In the allocatable range 0-2^41, each set of numbers described by S = { n < 0-2^41: n = V + k*G where k=0,1,2, ...} where: G is a largish number that partitions the available space, and V (< G) identifies the vector that is allocated to a registry are non-overlapping, non-aggregable allocations. IANA would allocate integer Vs to registries and keep a database of the Vs already assigned. The Vs can be sequentially allocated. Registries allocate from the S-es (vectors of numbers) generated by the Vs they are given without the need to coordinate with each other. The value G controls the size of the vector (I'm not sure off-hand what a sensible number might be). Technically, a router could work out V by examining the address (ie the_41_bit_part mod G will be the same for all allocations in the same vector) and thus perform aggregation by routing on the value of V, however if G is not a power of 2 (perhaps a prime) this would be an expensive operation. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 20:48:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D3m9U7013125; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D3m8hv013117; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D3lxU7013108 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D3jHV7006143 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n97.nomadiclab.com (teldanex.hiit.fi [212.68.5.99]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D3jB73008843 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:45:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nomadiclab.com (polle.local.nikander.com [192.168.0.193]) by n97.nomadiclab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401B41C; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:54:43 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <3F39B452.2010401@nomadiclab.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:45:22 +0300 From: Pekka Nikander User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030801 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Templin Cc: hipsec@honor.trusecure.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Mumbles about HIP (was Re: apps people?) References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <3F393D71.10605@nomadiclab.com> <3F394D7B.1060709@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3F394D7B.1060709@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred, Fred Templin wrote: >> There was a HIP mailing list for a long time @lists.freeswan.org. > > Yes, I'm subscribed to that list - since 7/16/2002, actually. There was > a pretty healthy amount of traffic between 3/14/03 - 3/26/03 and then > it went silent. I guess the list crashed at 3/26/03, short shortly thereafter. Your address probably got lost already then, since it did have some more traffic afterwards. Then it crashed again sometime in July, and AFAIK it has not been restored after that. > Since then, I have received two messages - one on 6/29/03 > and another on 8/10/03 (only two days ago) - both messages were from > you, actually. I never saw any announcement of the new list... Those must have been crossposted to some other list. The 8/10/03 message I meant to crosspost to the new list (not the old one), but my fingers made a mistake. The other list the message was crossposted to was multi6. I don't remember about the 6/29/03 one. (I've been spending time with my family all the summer, and reading mail at odd hours without enough of coffee.) We announced the new list on the new list :-) My intention is to annouce it elsewhere, too, but that is just still in my pipeline. --Pekka Nikander -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 23:04:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D64bU7016368; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D64ZaV016367; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D64RU7016360 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D61iUu005718 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D61cwh028615 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:01:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA77E3F032; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:31:39 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:31:39 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Michel Py" Cc: brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, Message-Id: <20030813153139.37c9c415.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:09:20 -0700 "Michel Py" wrote: > > Routing it over the Internet (without a VPN) for inter-entrerprise > communication would also be perfectly legitimate, host-to-host IPSEC for > example. Then the line between it and global PI ceases to exist. > I think a concern about a furture use of host-to-host IPSec and the consequences to local use addresses is quite valid. There are a number of reasons : 1) IPsec in IPv6 is *free*. Why bother getting a private WAN link when the QoS over the organisation's Internet link, when combined with IPsec, is good enough ? 2) Scaling to large numbers of IPsec tunnels encounters the same problem that scaling over IP over ATM encountered - the overlay network problem. 3) The solution to the overlay network problem in IPsec is to use transport mode. Transport mode doesn't work with private addressing though. 4) I'm not in touch with recent IPsec / DNSSEC developments, but the only thing I'm aware of that is missing for easy end-to-end transport mode deployment is widely available opportunistic SA establishment. I wrote a _long_ email describing this I while ago. I appreciate it may have been too long for people to read - I blame it on the fact that I learnt to type properly a number of years ago. I'm trying to learn to be more consise. If you are interested to read further, here is an archive copy : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ipng&m=103847657209894&w=2 When you add HIP (from what I understand of it) into the mix, you end up spliting the locator and identifier, which I think also makes the multihoming problem easier to fix. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 12 23:37:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D6atU7017317; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D6asZ0017316; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D6alU7017309 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D6Y5V7007498 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D6XxkZ018263 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr02.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h7D6XxfP015790 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:33:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-32.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.32]) by il06exr02.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h7D6Xt2X015033 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:33:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3F39DBD2.494F348F@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:33:54 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030812155946.05912780@mail.windriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Possibly naive, but I'm not convinced that leaking local addresses for PI purposes is that big a problem. Assumptions (as specified by H/H draft): (1) Most (all compliant) trunk routers will not route local packets. Most (all compliant) border routers will not route local packets. Some internal routers will not route local packets (depending on configuration). (2) Routing protocols in the above are coded to ignore local address ranges and not update routing tables. In general, only local routers will accept updates for local addresses (and only if not disabled). Now, if I pay my ISP to switch off the filters, what does it gain me? Not much, unless I'm routing to someone else who also has their filters disabled via a path that has the filters disabled. Thus, the only people exposing themselves to routing table explosion are those who disable the filters. Or have I missed something in the economics of the situation? Side point: application level leakage (either via mis-configured DNS or naive address referral) is exactly the same problem as you get if you allow a 'global' address to leak across a filter. If you provide a filtered address to a device outside the filter it won't work. How quickly you detect this depends on whether your router returns an error or just silently discards the packet. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 00:14:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D7EjU7018477; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D7EjRH018476; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D7EbU7018469 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D7BtV7014770 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D7BnaG005489 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:11:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h7D7BmXw003955 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:11:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-32.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.32]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h7D7BhBh009076 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:11:45 -0500 Message-ID: <3F39E4AF.743467EB@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:11:43 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: disconnected References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michael Thomas wrote: > > So I have a question: what does "disconnected" really mean? For my thoughts, read 'real life scenario - requirements' (posted Thu 07 Aug, 2003, 1:54 am GMT). It think it quite adequately answers your questions. If not, perhaps you can rephrase them? It also explains why a 'disconnected' network might want to maintain a stable PI prefix for local use and continue to use that prefix locally even when global prefixes are available. A designated local prefix allows the wider network to filter these local use prefixes, providing disincentive for using them as *globally* routeable PI, and allows applications to favour local prefixes when available. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 01:49:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D8nYU7021788; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D8nX7P021786; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D8nIU7021746 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D8kZV7004461 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowl.fysh.org ([195.167.170.152]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D8kTg5025068 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:46:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19mrGz-0005Jb-00; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:46:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:46:25 +0100 To: Aidan Williams Cc: Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , Geoff Huston , IPng , Darryn Lowe Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 Message-ID: <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Aidan Williams wrote: >Geoff points out in his document that distribution of the "centrally >assigned" Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses space FC00::/8 is tricky >if the registries all have to coordinate with each other when selection >occurs. The obvious, and I think best, solution (presuming that distribution of registration is desirable) is for IANA to generate independent random prefixes in advance and delegate these en masse. The delegated registrars can then assign the prefixes they have been given to individual registrants, either sequentially or randomly. This is not an expensive operation. I oppose your idea of having allocated prefixes be numerically related, because it defeats the aim of having no discernable structure in the prefix IDs. Whoever generates the prefixes must do so randomly and independently. -zefram -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 02:35:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D9Z3U7023627; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7D9Z3x7023626; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7D9YvU7023605 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7D9WFV7014850 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D9W9uR022813 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:32:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.1]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16900 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030813052857.058e4ec0@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:30:28 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: On Vacation: 16-Aug through 1-Sep Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Just FYI -- I will be on vacation for the next two weeks, from Saturday, August 16th through Monday, September 1st. I will be reading mail occasionally during my vacation, to deal with critical issues. However, I probably won't keep up-to-date on the WG mailing list. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 06:55:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DDtLU7005453; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DDtJZn005448; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DDtFU7005437 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DDqVV7006288 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.galileo.co.il (pop3.galileo.co.il [199.203.130.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DDqOg5011156 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lt38 ([10.4.1.70]) by mail.galileo.co.il (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h7DEnf6D003777 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:49:42 +0200 (GMT-2) Message-ID: <06da01c361ab$0bd312b0$5801040a@lt38> From: "Nir Arad" To: "IPng mailing list" Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:56:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06D7_01C361BB.CEEF6540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06D7_01C361BB.CEEF6540 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DGhELG012608; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DGh8U7012601 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DGeNV7025139 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DGeIph002562 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:40:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7DGdkY24486; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:39:46 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308131639> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.89, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdAL0cOB; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:39:44 PDT Message-ID: <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:39:44 -0700 From: "Charles E. Perkins" Organization: Nokia Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zefram CC: IPng Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Zefram wrote: > I oppose your idea of having allocated prefixes be numerically related, > because it defeats the aim of having no discernable structure in the > prefix IDs. Whoever generates the prefixes must do so randomly and > independently. I don't see why this is a problem. The prefix generation could be done sequentially, it seems to me. Randomness makes it a _lot_ harder to guarantee uniqueness, for no good reason that I can see. Who cares if there is structure or not, when the prefixes aren't going to be routed? Regards, Charlie P. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 10:48:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DHm1U7015518; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DHm1Xs015517; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DHloU7015510 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DHj5V7019071 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DHixFs010157 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:45:04 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mark Smith'" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:43:58 -0700 Message-ID: <093f01c361c2$7a0a4930$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030812163146.341e2858.ipv6@nosense.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7DHloU7015511 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: > True, but in my experience in a large, multi-departmental > govenment network, is it fairly common that end user security > / access requirements don't fall neatly along route / prefix > boundaries. Typically this is because security has crept into > the network, triggered by attachement to the Internet. This is inconsistent with your statement later about prefixes mapping to broadcast domains. > > In government networks, route filtering is a useful tool to > have, but mostly it is a "nice to use", because it is too > blunt to facilitate the security / access requirements of the > end users. So is this a statement that the approach is not useful in government networks, or a statement that the tool is inadequate because it does not solve the government network problems? > > Typically, the order of use of available network / transport > layer security tools to meet common end-user requirements is : > > (1) "application" level - ie. filter on TCP / UDP ports, > possibly in combination with IPv4 source and / or destination address. > (2) network layer - filter IPv4 source and / or destination > IPv4 adress. > (3) route filtering > > Service providers, OTOH, protect their end-users by > protecting the network itself. Route filtering is one of the > primary tools for doing that, so (3) on my enterprise list is > one of the (1)s on the service provider list. SP's aren't protecting their end-users by route filtering, they are protecting their resources from other SP's. > > Since IPv6 prefixes are going to be mapped along the same > boundaries as IPv4 prefixes ie., layer 2 broadcast domains, > IPv6 route filtering in an government network will be just as > dull a tool as it is in IPv4. This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single prefix / L2. While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 network, there is no reason to preclude having additional prefixes / L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. > > The security paranoid will both remove routes, and install > > filters, on the belief that failures will not occur in both at the > > same time. Despite the noise about not providing security, > these are > > two mechanisms used in basic layered security models. > > > > The security paranoid, at least in an government environment, > would *like* to perform route filtering as part of a defense > in depth strategy in addition to filtering, but end-user > access requirements usually put an end to that idea. That is only because there is a single prefix shared between those needing accessibility and those wanting to be hidden. There is no requirement that a single prefix be shared this way in an IPv6 network. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 11:13:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIDlU7016432; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DIDj3k016428; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIDaU7016398 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DIAqUu002370 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIAkRv013176 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C64114028; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17894-03; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D94814038; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:10:44 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Charles E. Perkins" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, zefram@fysh.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 Message-Id: <20030813141044.4d6c56cd.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > I oppose your idea of having allocated prefixes be numerically > > related, because it defeats the aim of having no discernable > > structure in the prefix IDs. Whoever generates the prefixes must do > > so randomly and independently. > > I don't see why this is a problem. The prefix generation could > be done sequentially, it seems to me. Randomness makes it a _lot_ > harder to guarantee uniqueness, for no good reason that I can see. > Who cares if there is structure or not, when the prefixes aren't > going to be routed? my preference is also to not require that the prefixes be randomly assigned, in order to allow delegation of prefix assignment to multiple authorized parties. of course it's fine if those parties generate prefixes from within their delegated space in non-sequential order to further discourage attempts at aggregation and routing. but in practice I think the order of requests for PI blocks will be sufficiently random that aggregation would be infeasible anyway. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 11:26:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIQAU7017009; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DIQAEn017006; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIPqU7016967 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DIN7Uu007136 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIN1Wb009788 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7DIMSpp013945; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AHB26632; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id LAA04995; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:22:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:22:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore Cc: Michael Thomas , ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > not true. in order to understand whether there's a potential > address conflict you need to consider the transitive closure of all > connections available to all hosts on the network. if the same address > refers to different hosts anywhere in the network then it can still > cause problems for apps doing referrals even if the meaning of that > address is well-defined for every individual host. In trying to formulate an answer to this it occurs to me that there's a better question to ask: if it is inevitable that we need PI space for disconnected networks, then do you concede that we will end up with (a) NAT's and (b) route growth (due to advertizing /48's) for people who decide to get and (ab)use them? I've seen nothing which would dissuade me of that notion, and plenty of evidence in the here and now that that's exactly what will happen. Since IPv6 does not have an adequate solution for renumbering -- and any such solution being the path of least resistance is highly dubious -- are we not in the same situation as IPv4 with respect to the inevitabilty of NAT's since global PI is inherently self-limiting due to route growth? Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 11:40:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIefU7017723; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DIefaK017722; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIeZU7017715 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DIboUu013263 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gamma.isi.edu (gamma.isi.edu [128.9.144.145]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIbiWb019708 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:37:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ISI.EDU (jet.isi.edu [128.9.160.87]) by gamma.isi.edu (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h7DIbgJ15309; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200308131837.h7DIbgJ15309@gamma.isi.edu> To: IETF-Announce: ; Subject: RFC 3587 on IPv6 Global Unicast Address Format Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=NextPart Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 -0700 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 3587 Title: IPv6 Global Unicast Address Format Author(s): R. Hinden, S. Deering, E. Nordmark Status: Informational Date: August 2003 Mailbox: bob.hinden@nokia.com, erik.nordmark@sun.com Pages: 5 Characters: 8783 Obsoletes: 2374 I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ipv6-unicast-aggr-v2-03.txt URL: ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3587.txt This document obsoletes RFC 2374, "An IPv6 Aggregatable Global Unicast Address Format". It defined an IPv6 address allocation structure that includes Top Level Aggregator (TLA) and Next Level Aggregator (NLA). This document makes RFC 2374 and the TLA/NLA structure historic. This document is a product of the IP Version 6 Working Group of the IETF. This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution.echo Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. Joyce K. Reynolds and Sandy Ginoza USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the RFCs. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="RFC-INFO@RFC-EDITOR.ORG" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <030813113552.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> RETRIEVE: rfc DOC-ID: rfc3587 --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="rfc3587.txt"; site="ftp.isi.edu"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="in-notes" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <030813113552.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 11:50:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIoeU7018179; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DIocss018178; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIoVU7018171 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DIlkUu017234 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIlfFs019995 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 6FE06206607 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19n0W9-0008Hn-8j for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:38:41 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19n0VF-0008FR-Gz for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:37:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA29821 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19n0VE-0003ya-00 for all-ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:37:44 -0400 Received: from gamma.isi.edu ([128.9.144.145]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19n0VD-0003yX-00 for all-ietf@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:37:43 -0400 Received: from ISI.EDU (jet.isi.edu [128.9.160.87]) by gamma.isi.edu (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h7DIbgJ15309; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200308131837.h7DIbgJ15309@gamma.isi.edu> To: IETF-Announce: ; Subject: RFC 3587 on IPv6 Global Unicast Address Format Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+23272_0149412577641_233817313671" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --MIMEStream=_0+23272_0149412577641_233817313671 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 3587 Title: IPv6 Global Unicast Address Format Author(s): R. Hinden, S. Deering, E. Nordmark Status: Informational Date: August 2003 Mailbox: bob.hinden@nokia.com, erik.nordmark@sun.com Pages: 5 Characters: 8783 Obsoletes: 2374 I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ipv6-unicast-aggr-v2-03.txt URL: ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3587.txt This document obsoletes RFC 2374, "An IPv6 Aggregatable Global Unicast Address Format". It defined an IPv6 address allocation structure that includes Top Level Aggregator (TLA) and Next Level Aggregator (NLA). This document makes RFC 2374 and the TLA/NLA structure historic. This document is a product of the IP Version 6 Working Group of the IETF. This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list. Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example: To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG Subject: getting rfcs help: ways_to_get_rfcs Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution.echo Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC Authors, for further information. Joyce K. Reynolds and Sandy Ginoza USC/Information Sciences Institute ... Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant Mail Reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the RFCs. --MIMEStream=_0+23272_0149412577641_233817313671 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="MIMEStream=_1+11377_39423870091492_84612924379" --MIMEStream=_1+11377_39423870091492_84612924379 Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="RFC-INFO@RFC-EDITOR.ORG" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <030813113552.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> RETRIEVE: rfc DOC-ID: rfc3587 --MIMEStream=_1+11377_39423870091492_84612924379 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="rfc3587.txt"; site="ftp.isi.edu"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="in-notes" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <030813113552.RFC@RFC-EDITOR.ORG> --MIMEStream=_1+11377_39423870091492_84612924379-- --MIMEStream=_0+23272_0149412577641_233817313671-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 12:00:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DJ0DU7018641; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DJ0DRM018640; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DIxwU7018614 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DIvDUu020817 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIv8Rv010896 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C6E14022; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22082-10; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0768913FB3; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:57:05 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mat@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > In trying to formulate an answer to this it occurs > to me that there's a better question to ask: if it > is inevitable that we need PI space for > disconnected networks, then do you concede that we > will end up with (a) NAT's and (b) route growth > (due to advertizing /48's) for people who decide > to get and (ab)use them? I don't see either of these results as inevitable. I think that we can make rules that say "no NATs in IPv6" and "advertisements of PI prefixes on the public Internet should be filtered" and that those rules will have a useful effect. They might not entirely prevent either practice, but they may make them rare enough that they do not cause huge problems. In the case of NATs, I believe users will be less eager to deploy NATs in IPv6 because (a) the absence of NATs in IPv6 allows the Internet to support new kinds of applications that will drive deployment and (b) IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the best tools available. That and there is a greater awareness of NAT problems than there used to be. IMHO the big wildcard is security- whether users will realize that NATs actually provide very little security benefit as compared to say, stateless firewalls (which themselves provide only a marginal benefit). Just as with poorly-chosen countermeasures against spam and terrorism, there's currently a widespread belief that any countermeasure against network attack is justified, no matter how little protection it provides and how much damage to functionality it does. Eventually people will learn better, but I don't know how long this will take. In the case of advertising PI prefixes, I believe ISPs will understand the wisdom of filtering them. They might not start filtering them immediately, but if routers get overloaded, the price of advertising a PI prefix will increase rapidly. It might become cheaper to buy redundancy using PA prefixes than to buy it using PI prefixes. (I could even imagine allocating PA prefixes to small sets of ISPs, for use by customers that get connectivity from more than one of them.) And I suspect that if we recommend it, and get buyin from network operators' groups, a substantial fraction of ISPs will filter PI prefix advertisements from peers. That and I'm convinced that it's possible to "aggregate" non-adjacent prefixes for route computation purposes with only small changes in BGP (which doesn't do much for router memory size but does a lot for routing computation overhead). So basically I think there are lots of ways to solve this problem. Of course, we do need to provide better solutions for scalable routing renumbering, and multihoming. We also need a better security architecture. My impression is that we are devoting too much energy to freaking out, when there are important problems we need to be working on. In particular, we need to get ourselves out of the habit of crying "that will lead to NAT" or "that will lead to route explosion" and using these as excuses to stop investigating a solution path. Of course these are hazards that should be respected, and I think everyone here understands that. But none of us knows with anything resembling certainty what the market will demand, and so treating either of these as the "kiss of death" for an idea serves no purpose other than to prevent us from investigating (and thus, failing to discover) potential solutions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 12:04:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DJ4ZU7018859; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DJ4Zp6018858; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DJ4JU7018845 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DJ1YV7017731 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DJ1SWb004589 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2028F14038; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23063-02; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC0113FB3; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:01:26 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipv6@nosense.org, pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030813150126.6dba2c50.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <093f01c361c2$7a0a4930$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030812163146.341e2858.ipv6@nosense.org> <093f01c361c2$7a0a4930$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Since IPv6 prefixes are going to be mapped along the same > > boundaries as IPv4 prefixes ie., layer 2 broadcast domains, > > IPv6 route filtering in an government network will be just as > > dull a tool as it is in IPv4. > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single prefix / L2. > While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 > network, there is no reason to preclude having additional prefixes / > L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. ...except that apps won't have any way of knowing which prefixes to use for which purposes. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 13:11:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKB6U7022340; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DKB6Em022339; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKArU7022332 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DK88V7012674 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DK83Fs006556 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7DK80uG001110; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AHB40978; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id NAA05419; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:07:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16186.39583.196244.765753@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:07:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore Cc: Michael Thomas , ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > > In trying to formulate an answer to this it occurs > > to me that there's a better question to ask: if it > > is inevitable that we need PI space for > > disconnected networks, then do you concede that we > > will end up with (a) NAT's and (b) route growth > > (due to advertizing /48's) for people who decide > > to get and (ab)use them? > > I don't see either of these results as inevitable. > > I think that we can make rules that say "no NATs in IPv6" and > "advertisements of PI prefixes on the public Internet should be > filtered" and that those rules will have a useful effect. They might not > entirely prevent either practice, but they may make them rare enough > that they do not cause huge problems. Enforced by whom? Heck, forget enforcement. *Voiced* by whom? > In the case of NATs, I believe users will be less eager to deploy > NATs in IPv6 because (a) the absence of NATs in IPv6 allows the Internet > to support new kinds of applications that will drive deployment and (b) > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > best tools available. If people really, really want PI space -- which they manifestly do to isolate themselves from PA address changes amongst other things -- why does it not follow that they'd like to make those nice unroutable PI addresses that we so kindly provide to not have reach farther than was intended? As in, why doesn't the experience of RFC 1918 directly apply here? Even if you can get a globally routable PA provided address, would the network adminstrators who desire PI even want to deal with them? Because they're still faced with the daunting task of renumbering PA addresses if they use them which was... sort of the reason that they like PI addresses. > In the case of advertising PI prefixes, I believe ISPs will understand > the wisdom of filtering them. They might not start filtering them > immediately, but if routers get overloaded, the price of advertising a > PI prefix will increase rapidly. Sure. Which leads directly to NAT's to get around the perceived meanness of the ISP. > Of course, we do need to provide better solutions for scalable routing > renumbering, and multihoming. We also need a better security > architecture. My impression is that we are devoting too much energy > to freaking out, when there are important problems we need to be > working on. I dunno, is it "freaking out" when the end result of this exercise looks like the current IPv4 deployment except for a larger IP header? > In particular, we need to get ourselves out of the habit of crying "that > will lead to NAT" or "that will lead to route explosion" and using these > as excuses to stop investigating a solution path. Even when there's ample existance proofs that it will? It's sort of disingenous to claim Chicken Littlism when the ipv4 sky has already fallen. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 13:41:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKerU7022446; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DKerwp022445; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKecU7022438 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DKbiUu025759 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DKbdwd020467 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:37:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F004513FDE; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01682-01; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B2713FBA; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:37:32 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mat@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030813163732.3eccad9d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16186.39583.196244.765753@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.39583.196244.765753@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > I think that we can make rules that say "no NATs in IPv6" and > > "advertisements of PI prefixes on the public Internet should be > > filtered" and that those rules will have a useful effect. They > > might not entirely prevent either practice, but they may make them > > rare enough that they do not cause huge problems. > > Enforced by whom? Heck, forget enforcement. > *Voiced* by whom? IETF. Who did you think? Do we need enforcement in order for vendors to more-or-less conform to other specifications that we write? > > In the case of NATs, I believe users will be less eager to deploy > > NATs in IPv6 because (a) the absence of NATs in IPv6 allows the > > Internet to support new kinds of applications that will drive > > deployment and (b) IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some > > problems (renumbering, attachment of a home network) whereas in > > IPv4 NATs were the best tools available. > > If people really, really want PI space -- which they manifestly do to > isolate themselves from PA address changes amongst other things -- why > does it not follow that they'd like to make those nice unroutable PI > addresses that we so kindly provide to not have reach farther than was > intended? I can't even tell what question you are asking. could you rephrase that more simply? > As in, why doesn't the experience of RFC 1918 directly apply > here? *which* experience of RFC 1918? there are lots of experiences, some of them conflicting. > Even if you can get a globally routable PA provided address, > would the network adminstrators who desire PI even want to deal with > them? it depends. do they want their networks to be able to communicate with other networks (outside of private agreements) or not? if no, PI space will do just fine. if yes, they'll need to use PA space for those hosts (unless of course we solve the problem of making PA addresses universally usable). > Because they're still faced with the daunting task of > renumbering PA addresses if they use them which was... sort of the > reason that they like PI addresses. bad assumption. renumbering need not be a daunting task if you have tools and the necessary support. I've seen fairly large v4 networks renumbered without too many glitches - it will be even easier in v6 if we finish the work. though it seems like we'd rather argue that it's infeasible than work on the tools... > > In the case of advertising PI prefixes, I believe ISPs will > > understand the wisdom of filtering them. They might not start > > filtering them immediately, but if routers get overloaded, the > > price of advertising a PI prefix will increase rapidly. > > Sure. Which leads directly to NAT's to get around > the perceived meanness of the ISP. nayh, nayh, nayh. saying "this will lead directly to NATs" is starting to sound a lot like comparing somebody to Hitler. it's a meaningless assertion because there's no way to evaluate it. IMHO: you won't use NATs in IPv6 - because NATs will break your apps - because the very reason you adopted IPv6 was to get away from the problems with NATs and to let you run apps that aren't NAT compatible. for the forseeable future, apps that are NAT compatible are going to use IPv4. > > Of course, we do need to provide better solutions for scalable > > routing renumbering, and multihoming. We also need a better > > security architecture. My impression is that we are devoting too > > much energy to freaking out, when there are important problems we > > need to be working on. > > I dunno, is it "freaking out" when the end result > of this exercise looks like the current IPv4 > deployment except for a larger IP header? yep, that's freaking out. stop assuming that the past will repeat itself - first because v4+NAT isn't going away (why bother with v6 if you're going to keep using NATs?), and second, because the conditions aren't the same. > > In particular, we need to get ourselves out of the habit of crying > > "that will lead to NAT" or "that will lead to route explosion" and > > using these as excuses to stop investigating a solution path. > > Even when there's ample existance proofs that it > will? no such proofs exist, just unfounded assertions based on questionable assumptions. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 13:55:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKstU7022590; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DKstcf022589; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKseU7022577 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DKpuUu000192 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DKpnWb010051 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:51:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7DKpeLJ020302; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AHB46358; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id NAA05464; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:51:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16186.42203.226951.792590@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:51:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Keith Moore Cc: Michael Thomas , ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030813163732.3eccad9d.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.39583.196244.765753@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813163732.3eccad9d.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > Hitler. This is pointless. Bye. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 13:57:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKvEU7022668; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DKvE39022667; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DKuxU7022654 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DKsEUu000929 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DKs9ph005486 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:54:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E80213FDF; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03325-03; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466F513FE4; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:54:07 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mat@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030813165407.3db2129d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16186.42203.226951.792590@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.39583.196244.765753@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813163732.3eccad9d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.42203.226951.792590@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore writes: > > Hitler. > > This is pointless. exactly my point. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 14:08:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DL8SU7022815; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DL8SX2022814; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DL8DU7022806 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DL5SV7002590 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DL5MFs010072 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:05:25 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:04:15 -0700 Message-ID: <097b01c361de$76ad2ac0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030813150126.6dba2c50.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > Since IPv6 prefixes are going to be mapped along the same > > > boundaries as IPv4 prefixes ie., layer 2 broadcast domains, > > > IPv6 route filtering in an government network will be just as > > > dull a tool as it is in IPv4. > > > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single > prefix / L2. > > While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 > > network, there is no reason to preclude having additional > prefixes / > > L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. > > ...except that apps won't have any way of knowing which > prefixes to use for which purposes. > Only due to the refusal to accept that hinden/haberman prefixes would provide a clue, and those used with the bellovin/zill RA provide a clear indication to any app that cares to look. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 14:16:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLGUU7022833; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DLGUKq022832; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLGDU7022825 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DLDSUu006271 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DLDNFs014601 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:26 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.155 by inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:22 -0700 Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-hub-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:22 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:13 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:20 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: inevitability of PI = 3 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:13:18 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: inevitability of PI = 3 Thread-Index: AcNh3Lko81sOjz20R9yULHz7q5w1uAAAuruA From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Michael Thomas" , "Keith Moore" Cc: , , , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2003 21:13:21.0001 (UTC) FILETIME=[B93ED590:01C361DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7DLGFU7022826 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hey, we can legislate whatever... -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 14:18:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLIOU7022845; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DLIOI8022844; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLI8U7022837 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DLFNV7005627 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DLFIBk002484 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:15:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A3314017; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05719-01; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0E513FF3; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:15:15 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipv6@nosense.org, pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030813171515.1fef9c9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <097b01c361de$76ad2ac0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030813150126.6dba2c50.moore@cs.utk.edu> <097b01c361de$76ad2ac0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single > > > prefix / L2. > > > While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 > > > network, there is no reason to preclude having additional > > > prefixes / L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. > > > > ...except that apps won't have any way of knowing which > > prefixes to use for which purposes. > > > > Only due to the refusal to accept that hinden/haberman prefixes would > provide a clue, and those used with the bellovin/zill RA provide a > clear indication to any app that cares to look. hinden/haberman prefixes as currently defined do not provide a clue. just because a PI prefix is in use does not mean that it's more or less suitable for a particular purpose than a PA prefix. in practice the app needs several attributes: stability of the address-to-host binding, routability of the address among the hosts that will need to use it, etc. depending on which nodes the app will need to talk to and their locations in the network, a PI prefix might do better in some cases and a PA prefix in others, and there's really no good way to tell. I am still in catchup mode and haven't read the bellovin/zill RA proposal yet, and actually am having trouble figuring out which I-D people mean when they say this. please send a pointer in private mail. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 14:24:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLO8U7022952; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DLO6iM022951; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLNkU7022926 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DLL2V7008079 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DLKvph021036 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:20:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2003 14:20:56 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7DLKs7F014639; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AHB50116; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id OAA05541; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16186.43957.109494.646711@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:20:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "Christian Huitema" Cc: "Michael Thomas" , "Keith Moore" , , , , , Subject: RE: inevitability of PI = 3 In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Christian Huitema writes: > Hey, we can legislate whatever... I'm legally bound to Godwin's Law. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 14:33:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLWtU7023139; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7DLWtbx023138; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7DLWcU7023131 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7DLTrUu011659 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DLTlBk007048 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:29:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725551401B; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07082-03; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BA313FEF; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:29:45 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Michael Thomas Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, huitema@windows.microsoft.com, mat@cisco.com, ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI = 3 Message-Id: <20030813172945.2d200cee.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <16186.43957.109494.646711@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> References: <16186.43957.109494.646711@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I'm legally bound to Godwin's Law. Godwin may have done us more of a favor than he realized. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 20:21:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E3KxU7005683; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7E3KwkR005682; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E3KmU7005673 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7E3I3Uu016286 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7E3Hvph029970 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:17:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h7E3HnUR001344; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:17:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-63.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.63]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h7E3HYMP028940; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:17:36 -0500 Message-ID: <3F3AFF49.1080405@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:17:29 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zefram CC: Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , Geoff Huston , IPng , Darryn Lowe Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> In-Reply-To: <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Zefram wrote: >The obvious, and I think best, solution (presuming that distribution >of registration is desirable) is for IANA to generate independent >random prefixes in advance and delegate these en masse. The delegated >registrars can then assign the prefixes they have been given to individual >registrants, either sequentially or randomly. This is not an expensive >operation. > > That would be a very large database, hence expensive. Increasing the size of the blocks to manage the scale of the database increases the size of the "aggregable chunks". >I oppose your idea of having allocated prefixes be numerically related, >because it defeats the aim of having no discernable structure in the >prefix IDs. Whoever generates the prefixes must do so randomly and >independently. > > Randomly is not the requirement. Non-aggregatable is the requirement. If you don't like the simple approach, a collegue of mine came up with the idea of using a perfect hash to do the mapping. In that case there is no mapping. I'll write it up shortly. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 20:23:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E3NIU7005870; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7E3NIbF005869; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E3N6U7005839 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7E3KLV7020058 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7E3KEWb017232 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:20:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA3373F032; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:50:15 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:50:14 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Tony Hain" Cc: pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030814125014.15b72608.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <093f01c361c2$7a0a4930$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030812163146.341e2858.ipv6@nosense.org> <093f01c361c2$7a0a4930$70144104@eagleswings> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Tony, On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:43:58 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > True, but in my experience in a large, multi-departmental > > govenment network, is it fairly common that end user security > > / access requirements don't fall neatly along route / prefix > > boundaries. Typically this is because security has crept into > > the network, triggered by attachement to the Internet. > > This is inconsistent with your statement later about prefixes mapping to > broadcast domains. > My point was that users who are members of a single prefix commonly have different security access requirements. Far more often than route filtering a prefix to deny or permit access, I have : (1) Applied access permissions to an individual "user" (obviously really a device), based on their IPv4 address, and the application (TCP/UDP ports) they are granted or denied access to. (2) Applied access permissions to an individual "user", based on their IPv4 address. (3) One or the other of the previous two methods, but to a subset of the prefix members eg., a /29 group within a /24 prefix. Sometimes multiple, different size subsets within the same prefix. IPv4 addressing in the a number of cases in the past wasn't deployed along security boundaries, because security wasn't or wasn't much of a concern. Functionality was. Some customers won't mind restructuring their network to meet their changed or newly recognised security requirements, but others know that packet filtering functionality usually comes for free with a router, and they want you to use it. As a note on (3), after a while you start to realise that using network layer addressing for security isn't really that effective. If a user doesn't like the security access they have from their workstation, they will go and use somebody else's who has more access. While this could be classed as a physical security issue, it would be better if security could be applied at or nearer to the application layer, irrespective of network addressing or location. It is people we do or don't trust, not machines. I'm hoping that some of the "uglyness" of IPv6 addresses, including EUI-64 addressing for nodes, will encourage application security to be moved up the stack closer to the the users. Then I will have far less packet filtering to do, with all the associated "how does this application actually work at the transport layer" learning I have to do, on a per application basis. (Hmm, the inside of a network security person's head might be as ugly as a NAT code base ... ) > > > > In government networks, route filtering is a useful tool to > > have, but mostly it is a "nice to use", because it is too > > blunt to facilitate the security / access requirements of the > > end users. > > So is this a statement that the approach is not useful in government > networks, or a statement that the tool is inadequate because it does not > solve the government network problems? > I think it is inadequate, because it doesn't provide the resolution necessary to implement a number of customers' security access requirements. My examples above hopefully show that. > > > > Typically, the order of use of available network / transport > > layer security tools to meet common end-user requirements is : > > > > (1) "application" level - ie. filter on TCP / UDP ports, > > possibly in combination with IPv4 source and / or destination address. > > (2) network layer - filter IPv4 source and / or destination > > IPv4 adress. > > (3) route filtering > > > > Service providers, OTOH, protect their end-users by > > protecting the network itself. Route filtering is one of the > > primary tools for doing that, so (3) on my enterprise list is > > one of the (1)s on the service provider list. > > SP's aren't protecting their end-users by route filtering, they are > protecting their resources from other SP's. > I'm using the word "protect" in this case in the context of protecting their end-users by providing availability. > > > > Since IPv6 prefixes are going to be mapped along the same > > boundaries as IPv4 prefixes ie., layer 2 broadcast domains, > > IPv6 route filtering in an government network will be just as > > dull a tool as it is in IPv4. > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single prefix / L2. While > I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 network, there > is no reason to preclude having additional prefixes / L2, where the > reachability characteristics are different. > I agree. But unless we are going to be able to allocate IPv6 addresses to applications*, I don't think route filtering is ever going to be as effective as packet filtering on individual network layer addresses and / or TCP / UDP ports. And that is a very common security request. Regards, Mark. * Peter M. Gleitz and Steve Bellovin have written a paper called "Transient Addressing for Related Processes: Improved Firewalling by Using IPV6 and Multiple Addresses per Host", which seems to suggest doing this. I've only had a chance to briefly read the abstract, so I don't know how feasible or practical it would be to deploy this idea. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 21:16:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E4GcU7008533; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7E4Gc2a008532; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E4GYU7008525 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7E4DnV7000584 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7E4Diwd013741 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:13:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h7E4DhQm011524; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:13:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-63.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.63]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h7E4DdMP026934; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:13:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3F3B0C71.2020202@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:13:37 +1000 From: Aidan Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles E. Perkins" CC: IPng Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Charles E. Perkins wrote: >Randomness makes it a _lot_ >harder to guarantee uniqueness, for no good reason that I can see. >Who cares if there is structure or not, when the prefixes aren't >going to be routed? > I agree that randomness makes it a lot harder to guarantee global uniqueness, hence my desire to get to a solution that does not allow aggregation and is not random. :-) I had a partly crippled sentence relating to motivation in an earlier email: "Also, assigning address blocks seems undesirable because [of] the desire to cripple the aggregability of this address space and hence cripple its global routability." Basically, people want to break aggregability in order to ensure that this will never become a de-facto PI address space. That is, to ensure by design that it can never be routed. But I suspect you don't think this is a worthwhile goal.. - aidan -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 13 21:18:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E4I9U7008554; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7E4I95J008553; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E4I2U7008542 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7E4FIV7000898 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7E4FCRv002724 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (rsdhcp13.telstra.net [203.50.0.207]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7E4EQRf090026; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:14:33 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814140922.02f0de88@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:14:14 +1000 To: "Charles E. Perkins" , Zefram From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 Cc: IPng In-Reply-To: <3F3A69D0.8FC9AEBB@iprg.nokia.com> References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> <20030813084625.GA19432@fysh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 09:39 AM 13/08/2003 -0700, Charles E. Perkins wrote: >Zefram wrote: > > > I oppose your idea of having allocated prefixes be numerically related, > > because it defeats the aim of having no discernable structure in the > > prefix IDs. Whoever generates the prefixes must do so randomly and > > independently. > >I don't see why this is a problem. The prefix generation could >be done sequentially, it seems to me. Randomness makes it a _lot_ >harder to guarantee uniqueness, for no good reason that I can see. >Who cares if there is structure or not, when the prefixes aren't >going to be routed? The observation is that you cannot guarantee "aren't going to be routed", If you want to make it "very hard to route globally" then the Hinden draft makes the assumption that if you assure that there is no guessable structure of addresses this space. No guessable structure (i.e. random selection) is intended to ensure that a) its impossible to undertake any form of aggregation of adjacent prefixes and b) its impossible to create a reverse DNS structure that exploits structure Of course you may not care that these prefixes leak into the global routing table, in which case it becomes a different scenario altogether. Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 02:10:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E9AoU7021774; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7E9AnVZ021773; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7E9AiU7021763 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7E981V7027849 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7E97tph007541 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04666 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:07:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20559 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:07:53 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7E97rf05117 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:07:53 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:07:53 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-ID: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > best tools available. So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting question to expand on I think... Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 03:23:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EAN5U7024976; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EAN57F024975; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EAN1U7024968 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EAKGV7009856 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.fccn.pt (atlas.fccn.pt [193.136.7.1]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7EAK9Fs002453 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 84701 invoked by uid 2502); 14 Aug 2003 10:20:08 -0000 Received: from cfriacas@fccn.pt by atlas.fccn.pt with qmail-scanner-0.94 (. Clean. Processed in 0.145056 secs); 14/08/2003 11:20:07 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 10:20:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:20:07 +0100 (WEST) From: Carlos Friacas To: Tim Chown cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > > best tools available. > > So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as opposed to > renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting question to expand > on I think... renumbering an IPv4 network: - The 1st critical parameter is *size*. *if* you are not using dhcp, even in an /27 segment (30 hosts if 100% used) it can be real hard to renumber. it consumes *time*, although being a simple/basic task. If you have a /24 or /23, well.. it is a real pain. - The 2nd critical parameter is how many "hard-wired" addresses (regarding services) you have inside it. dns servers are usually the biggest pain. if you use dhcp, resolvers are not a problem (if they are inside the network being renumbered), you just have to change a parameter in the dhcp server, if not it is a pain. but the trickiest/hardest part usually lies with authoritative nameservers -- If your "upper levels" (forwards and reverses) aren't fast enough to respond, you will think twice before going into a renumber. :-) renumbering an IPv6 network: - The 2nd critical parameter i've mentioned is also valid for IPv6. :-((( One more comment: Renumbering from 6BONE addresses to RIR addresses... it might be a good solution/idea to still route the /128s associated with addresses that are in somewhat way hard-wired to some services, as part of the phase-out process. e.g: keep the routing to 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::1/128 in your IGP to 2001:XYZW:1:2::1/128, but stop configuring 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::/64 on its gateway/router. This will prevent other machines to get a prefix in 3FFE, but still guarantees the connectivity to one single server in the "6bone context". Regards, ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 03:27:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EARjU7025417; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EARjVh025416; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EAReU7025406 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EAOuV7010485 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EAOowd010444 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06351 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:24:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00070 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:24:48 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7EAOmC06653 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:24:48 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:24:48 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-ID: <20030814102448.GH6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Carlos, the question is "where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network". Tim PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:20:07AM +0100, Carlos Friacas wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > > > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > > > best tools available. > > > > So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as opposed to > > renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting question to expand > > on I think... > > renumbering an IPv4 network: > - The 1st critical parameter is *size*. > *if* you are not using dhcp, even in an /27 segment (30 hosts if 100% > used) it can be real hard to renumber. it consumes *time*, although being > a simple/basic task. If you have a /24 or /23, well.. it is a real pain. > - The 2nd critical parameter is how many "hard-wired" addresses > (regarding services) you have inside it. > dns servers are usually the biggest pain. if you use dhcp, resolvers are > not a problem (if they are inside the network being renumbered), you just > have to change a parameter in the dhcp server, if not it is a pain. > but the trickiest/hardest part usually lies with authoritative > nameservers -- If your "upper levels" (forwards and reverses) aren't fast > enough to respond, you will think twice before going into a renumber. :-) > > renumbering an IPv6 network: > - The 2nd critical parameter i've mentioned is also valid for IPv6. :-((( > > One more comment: > Renumbering from 6BONE addresses to RIR addresses... it might be a good > solution/idea to still route the /128s associated with addresses that are > in somewhat way hard-wired to some services, as part of the phase-out > process. e.g: keep the routing to 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::1/128 in your IGP to > 2001:XYZW:1:2::1/128, but stop configuring 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::/64 on its > gateway/router. This will prevent other machines to get a prefix in 3FFE, > but still guarantees the connectivity to one single server in the "6bone > context". > > > Regards, > > ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" > -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt > , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup > FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 > > "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 03:31:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EAVIU7025462; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EAVIOm025461; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EAV2U7025454 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EASIV7010972 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.fccn.pt (atlas.fccn.pt [193.136.7.1]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7EASAFs005773 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 91247 invoked by uid 2502); 14 Aug 2003 10:28:10 -0000 Received: from cfriacas@fccn.pt by atlas.fccn.pt with qmail-scanner-0.94 (. Clean. Processed in 0.11882 secs); 14/08/2003 11:28:09 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 10:28:09 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:28:09 +0100 (WEST) From: Carlos Friacas To: Michael Thomas cc: Keith Moore , , , , , Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Michael Thomas wrote: > I've seen nothing which would dissuade me of that > notion, and plenty of evidence in the here and now > that that's exactly what will happen. Since IPv6 > does not have an adequate solution for renumbering > -- and any such solution being the path of least > resistance is highly dubious -- are we not in the > same situation as IPv4 with respect to the > inevitabilty of NAT's since global PI is > inherently self-limiting due to route growth? > > Mike "route growth": I would really prefer to see 20.000 IPv6 routes if 20.000 ASNs exist, but today i think there is no problem with having 120.000 routes, the same way it wouldnt be a problem to have 500.000 -- just keep upgrading the memory on your border routers, thus keeping the vendors happy! ;-) *However*... if i saw more than 127.000 on the v4 global routing system, i would say that a lot of it might have just one cause: people dont know what they are doing! With some task-force *acting* regarding routing, mistakes could be seriously reduced. In terms of IPv6, there is the GRH project... my thoughts on this are pretty clear: it *now* the time to prevent mistakes to happen while the IPv6 global routing table is short, and at the same time estabilish the means to keep it *clean*! Regards, ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 04:16:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBGiU7027952; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EBGhZ3027951; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBGTU7027922 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EBDjUu010354 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EBDcFs024068 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7EBDCR8095142; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:13:12 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7EBDAJr273258; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:13:10 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31880; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:13:08 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3B6EC0.6426D702@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:13:04 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aidan Williams CC: Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , Geoff Huston , IPng , Darryn Lowe Subject: Re: Distribution of FC00::/8 References: <3F39B45E.6020903@motorola.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Since these addresses by definition have no geographical or topological significance, and the idea is that they should be assigned as a public good (i.e. approximately at cost price with any profit being used for the public good), I'm still at a loss as to why we would need to distribute the registry function. In any case, that is an IANA matter. Brian Aidan Williams wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Geoff points out in his document that distribution of the "centrally > assigned" Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses space FC00::/8 is tricky > if the registries all have to coordinate with each other when selection > occurs. > > Also, assigning address blocks seems undesirable because the desire to > cripple the aggregability of this address space and hence cripple its > global routability. > > A mechanism for partitioning the available space amongst a set of > registries that isn't "block-like" could therefore be a useful thing. > > A suggestion: IANA can allocate vectors of numbers to each registry > that span the entire address space. > For example: In the allocatable range 0-2^41, each set of numbers > described by > S = { n < 0-2^41: n = V + k*G where k=0,1,2, ...} > where: > G is a largish number that partitions the available space, and > V (< G) identifies the vector that is allocated to a registry > are non-overlapping, non-aggregable allocations. > > IANA would allocate integer Vs to registries and keep a database of the > Vs already assigned. The Vs can be sequentially allocated. Registries > allocate from the S-es (vectors of numbers) generated by the Vs they are > given without the need to coordinate with each other. The value G > controls the size of the vector (I'm not sure off-hand what a sensible > number might be). > > Technically, a router could work out V by examining the address (ie > the_41_bit_part mod G will be the same for all allocations in the same > vector) and thus perform aggregation by routing on the value of V, > however if G is not a power of 2 (perhaps a prime) this would be an > expensive operation. > > - aidan > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 04:32:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBWKU7028814; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EBWIn4028813; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBWCU7028796 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EBTSV7022098 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EBTMWb000154 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:29:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7EBTK9e068462 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:20 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7EBTLr4262824 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:21 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21786 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:19 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3B728B.124308FE@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:15 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, References: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> <3F392506.7070508@sun.com> <3F39409F.96974078@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812164616.4846362e.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > > > > So, as I wrote in this forum about a week ago, what I'd like > > > to see in that area is simply provider independant, registry > > > allocated, easy accessible (very low registry fees, no question > > > asked) public address space, and then forget about the "scope" > > > discussion which is an operational/business issue. Actually I agree with this, but as we've seen (e.g. Geoff Huston's comments) setting this up will take time and debate, whereas the locally-assigned algorithm works instantly. True, it generates operationally untraceable prefixes if they leak, but surely that only hurts ISPs who don't filter properly. > > > > I almost agree, except that I would insist on "no cost". > > Low cost is often impossible, since that even a base charge > > for $0.50 requires invoicing across several continents and > > purchasing departments and levels of approval. > > are you saying that the process for obtaining a domain name is already > too onerous? seems like this should be an upper bound on the effort > required to get a PI prefix. True enough. But 10 EUR is a disincentive to hoarding or DoS, whereas $0.00 would not be. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 04:36:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBarU7029046; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EBarFY029045; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBamU7029038 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EBY4Uu013706 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.fccn.pt (atlas.fccn.pt [193.136.7.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7EBXuRv022638 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 42137 invoked by uid 2502); 14 Aug 2003 11:33:55 -0000 Received: from cfriacas@fccn.pt by atlas.fccn.pt with qmail-scanner-0.94 (. Clean. Processed in 0.109902 secs); 14/08/2003 12:33:55 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 11:33:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:33:55 +0100 (WEST) From: Carlos Friacas To: Tim Chown cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030814102448.GH6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: > Carlos, the question is "where are the cost savings in renumbering an > IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network". > > Tim > > PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) Use of DHCPv6 will solve the resolver issue, if its inside the renumbering network... however some predictions will prove to be wrong later... About the costs: If the IPv4 network being renumbered already uses dhcp, i dont see any real cost difference. :-( ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 04:37:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBbjU7029095; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EBbikG029094; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBbcU7029076 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EBYsV7023334 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.fccn.pt (atlas.fccn.pt [193.136.7.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7EBYlWb002434 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:34:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 42180 invoked by uid 2502); 14 Aug 2003 11:34:45 -0000 Received: from cfriacas@fccn.pt by atlas.fccn.pt with qmail-scanner-0.94 (. Clean. Processed in 0.118718 secs); 14/08/2003 12:34:45 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 11:34:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:34:45 +0100 (WEST) From: Carlos Friacas To: Tim Chown cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk s/will prove/might prove. :-) On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Carlos Friacas wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: > > > Carlos, the question is "where are the cost savings in renumbering an > > IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network". > > > > Tim > > > > PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) > > > Use of DHCPv6 will solve the resolver issue, if its inside the renumbering > network... however some predictions will prove to be wrong later... > > About the costs: If the IPv4 network being renumbered already uses dhcp, i > dont see any real cost difference. :-( > > > ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" > -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt > , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup > FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 > > "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" > > ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 04:39:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBd1U7029200; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EBd1qW029199; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EBctU7029181 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EBaBUu014295 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EBa5Wb003123 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2003 04:36:05 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7EBa27F011470 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-23.cisco.com [10.21.80.23]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.3-GR) with ESMTP id ABN38218; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:35:57 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030814102448.GH6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Taking Carlos' analysis a step further, there are two kinds of "stuff" that has to be fixed during a renumbering event: stuff that can be fixed automatically (cost essentially independent of network complexity) and stuff that has to be fixed manually (cost that scales with network complexity). For example, addresses assigned through autoconf can be fixed automatically while hard-wired addresses buried in config files have to be fixed manually. At the risk of over-simplification, there will be cost savings in renumbering IPv6 networks - cost savings that can be directly attributed to IPv6 - if there is more stuff in the first category for an IPv6 network than for an IPv4 network. That is, if we can point at stuff that can be fixed automatically in an IPv6 network, we can identify cost savings. The cost savings analysis in the previous paragraph focuses on time (and $$$s) saved by network admins. Another cost metric might be time-to-renumber; that is, how quickly can a renumbering event be completed. For example, IPv4 hosts using DHCP can be automatically renumbered, but there is a latency in the renumbering related to the length of the leases on the addresses assigned through DHCP. IPv6 hosts using autoconf can be automatically renumbered by changing the advertised prefixes, presumably with less latency. Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to quantify is the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. Will this transition state work in practice? Has anyone actually tried it? So, here are three ways to assess the renumbering advantages for IPv6: * Stuff moves from "manually configured" in IPv4 to "automatically configured" in IPv6, as a direct result of the design of IPv6 * Renumbering latency is reduced * Renumbering is enabled by IPv6 (graceful renumbering) that can't be accomplished with IPv4 - Ralph At 11:24 AM 8/14/2003 +0100, Tim Chown wrote: >Carlos, the question is "where are the cost savings in renumbering an >IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network". > >Tim > >PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) > >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:20:07AM +0100, Carlos Friacas wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > > > > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > > > > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > > > > best tools available. > > > > > > So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as > opposed to > > > renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting question > to expand > > > on I think... > > > > renumbering an IPv4 network: > > - The 1st critical parameter is *size*. > > *if* you are not using dhcp, even in an /27 segment (30 hosts if 100% > > used) it can be real hard to renumber. it consumes *time*, although being > > a simple/basic task. If you have a /24 or /23, well.. it is a real pain. > > - The 2nd critical parameter is how many "hard-wired" addresses > > (regarding services) you have inside it. > > dns servers are usually the biggest pain. if you use dhcp, resolvers are > > not a problem (if they are inside the network being renumbered), you just > > have to change a parameter in the dhcp server, if not it is a pain. > > but the trickiest/hardest part usually lies with authoritative > > nameservers -- If your "upper levels" (forwards and reverses) aren't fast > > enough to respond, you will think twice before going into a renumber. :-) > > > > renumbering an IPv6 network: > > - The 2nd critical parameter i've mentioned is also valid for IPv6. :-((( > > > > One more comment: > > Renumbering from 6BONE addresses to RIR addresses... it might be a good > > solution/idea to still route the /128s associated with addresses that are > > in somewhat way hard-wired to some services, as part of the phase-out > > process. e.g: keep the routing to 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::1/128 in your IGP to > > 2001:XYZW:1:2::1/128, but stop configuring 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::/64 on its > > gateway/router. This will prevent other machines to get a prefix in 3FFE, > > but still guarantees the connectivity to one single server in the "6bone > > context". > > > > > > Regards, > > > > ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- Now!" > > -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] http://www.fccn.pt > > , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup > > FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 218472167 > > > > "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... people!" >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 05:40:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ECerU7002926; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ECer6f002925; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ECemU7002918 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ECc4V7006429 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ECbwWb001360 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:37:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08865 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:37:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04028 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:37:56 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7ECbuK08508 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:37:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:37:56 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-ID: <20030814123756.GU6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 07:35:57AM -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to quantify is > the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition > state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. > Will this transition state work in practice? Has anyone actually tried it? > > * Renumbering is enabled by IPv6 (graceful renumbering) that can't be > accomplished with IPv4 How different is this to the multi-addressing multihoming scenario, which Christian Huitema's proposals are attacking? I think this is good work, but the brickbats come from those who wish to push/enforce central policy to hosts for the host address selection algorithms (moreso in larger corporate networks than the SOHO networks that Christian's work seems very well suited for). The "Renumbering is easier/cheaper in IPv6" quote comes up quite frequently; it's nice to perhaps delve into it a bit deeper (I don't recall anyone has recently...) Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 05:47:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EClbU7003113; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EClanF003112; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EClVU7003105 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ECilV7007429 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ECifFs003328 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C8114060; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02666-15; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302701402D; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:42:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: PI, routeable PI, Message-Id: <20030814084252.700e8cb8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F3B728B.124308FE@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F39122E.199C6385@zurich.ibm.com> <3F392506.7070508@sun.com> <3F39409F.96974078@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812164616.4846362e.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F3B728B.124308FE@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:29:15 +0200 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > I almost agree, except that I would insist on "no cost". > > > Low cost is often impossible, since that even a base charge > > > for $0.50 requires invoicing across several continents and > > > purchasing departments and levels of approval. > > > > are you saying that the process for obtaining a domain name is already > > too onerous? seems like this should be an upper bound on the effort > > required to get a PI prefix. > > True enough. But 10 EUR is a disincentive to hoarding or DoS, whereas > $0.00 would not be. I certainly don't have a problem with a 10 EUR one-time charge. And I think the registry has a lot more chance of success if it pays its own way. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 06:01:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED1YU7003745; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ED1XZ7003744; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED1RU7003734 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ECwgUu029359 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ECwbBk022444 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:58:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C6614060; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04975-02; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60E814020; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:56:48 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Ralph Droms Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030814085648.538efb33.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to quantify is > the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition > state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. the effect of this on renumbering cost is going to be highly site-dependent. "graceful" renumbering offers the potential to renumber with zero downtime, and without breaking open connections. if you lose a substantial amount of money for every minute of downtime, this matters a lot. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 06:06:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED6rU7003922; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ED6qOs003920; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED6kU7003893 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ED41Uu000453 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ED3uBk024189 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:03:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7ED3s7F023731 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-23.cisco.com [10.21.80.23]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.3-GR) with ESMTP id ABN42694; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814090309.043f2300@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:03:49 -0400 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030814085648.538efb33.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Agreed - there are significant potential savings. Does it work? - Ralph At 08:56 AM 8/14/2003 -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to quantify is > > the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition > > state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. > >the effect of this on renumbering cost is going to be highly site-dependent. >"graceful" renumbering offers the potential to renumber with zero downtime, >and without breaking open connections. if you lose a substantial amount of >money for every minute of downtime, this matters a lot. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 06:07:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED7uU7004050; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ED7us6004049; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ED7nU7004030 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ED54V7011333 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ED4wWb014864 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:04:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7ED4vgT025497 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:04:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h7ED4vj8025377 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:04:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:04:57 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-ID: <20030814130457.GJ75063@sunet.se> References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KZLWU/9q3evlN4nQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --KZLWU/9q3evlN4nQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Date: Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 10:07:53AM +010= 0 Quoting Tim Chown (tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk): > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > >=20 > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, > > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the > > best tools available. =20 >=20 > So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as opposed to > renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting question to e= xpand > on I think... It is still entirely possible to do the stoopid mistakes of hardwiring addresses in v6, much as it is (way too common) in v4. But, given the built-in ability to autoconfigure, and the yet-to-be-built nature of much v6 deployment, client and simple network services can be made to switch centrally, by adjusting the RA prefix and moving things in DNS, perhaps using DynDNS[0].=20 There will always be pain. That is why we have network admins. But, given that brain is switched on before net design commences, it is with v6 possible to considerably lessen the cost/work impact of a renumber event. Naturally, this can be done in v4 too -- BTDT.=20 Still, I wonder why I'm debating this here. It is v6ops material.=20 --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE Wait ... is this a FUN THING or the END of LIFE in Petticoat Junction?? [0] Jakob Schlyter has done a nice summary of a working methodology for this; see http://ops.ietf.org/dns/dynupd/secure-ddns-howto.html --KZLWU/9q3evlN4nQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/O4j502/pMZDM1cURAqoOAJ42aQva6OiNfuN4kgqAtkuJLLRnEgCfcq+F vrxaXsLY6myHiOkPLT5xg+E= =L48G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KZLWU/9q3evlN4nQ-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 06:39:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EDdAU7005836; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EDdArj005834; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EDd2U7005826 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EDaIUu007025 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EDaCwd024022 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9147E14063; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07802-09; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E251404C; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:34:23 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Tim Chown Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030814093423.52f8ee46.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030814123756.GU6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> <20030814123756.GU6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:37:56 +0100 Tim Chown wrote: > How different is this to the multi-addressing multihoming scenario, which > Christian Huitema's proposals are attacking? I think this is good work, > but the brickbats come from those who wish to push/enforce central policy > to hosts for the host address selection algorithms (moreso in larger > corporate networks than the SOHO networks that Christian's work seems very > well suited for). address selection won't work except in very simple cases. it's a lousy way of implementing routing policy. it needs to die, violently if necessary. but being able to renumber without breaking open connections (well, without breaking connections that are open with long periods of time) is really useful for disruption-sensitive environments. also my impression is that stateless address autoconf is a lot more generally applicable than DHCP, because it provides a stable address for the host without requiring any per-host configuration on the DHCP server. this makes renumbering easier because there's less configuration data that has to be changed. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 08:20:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EFKPU7013083; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EFKObZ013082; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EFKKU7013075 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EFHZV7017243 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EFHT0b003556 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:17:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7EFGsg26537; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:16:54 +0300 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:16:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tim Chown cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <20030814102448.GH6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: [...] > PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) To be clear, there seems to be a rather large number of people who think that DHCPv6 will be used to configure "other" fancy stuff on network (e.g. DNS resolver addresses). I don't think all that many would step up if we stirred in the address assignment of DHCPv6 to the mix. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 09:44:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EGhqU7017264; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EGhq9u017263; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EGhfU7017256 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EGeuV7015924 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EGeojL027001 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:40:57 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mark Smith'" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: apps people? Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:39:59 -0700 Message-ID: <0a4e01c36282$b438aeb0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030814125014.15b72608.ipv6@nosense.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7EGhgU7017257 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: > ... > > So is this a statement that the approach is not useful in > government > > networks, or a statement that the tool is inadequate > because it does > > not solve the government network problems? > > > > I think it is inadequate, because it doesn't provide the > resolution necessary to implement a number of customers' > security access requirements. My examples above hopefully show that. The examples show there environments more complex than a simple tool can deal with. That does not make the tool inadequate for the simple environments. > ... > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single > prefix / L2. > > While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 > > network, there is no reason to preclude having additional > prefixes / > > L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. > > > > I agree. > > But unless we are going to be able to allocate IPv6 addresses > to applications*, I don't think route filtering is ever going > to be as effective as packet filtering on individual network > layer addresses and / or TCP / UDP ports. And that is a very > common security request. Yes that is a common security request, but it falls flat on its face when the TCP/UDP ports are masked by IPsec, or simply spoofed by the application (ie: both ends agree that 80 is a remote file mount). To your earlier comment about filtering is free, it really isn't. Yes it is included in the box, but doing the work requires time (increased app latency), or dedicated hardware (increased device cost), so it isn't free. * To some degree this is the deployment model. Not to explicitly allocate an address to an individual app, but to allocate addresses with the characteristics of 'local use' and 'global use', then have the apps bind to the appropriate one. If a local policy is more complex than the simple two layers, it will need additional (out of scope for this approach) mechanisms to sort out which app should be bound to which address. Tony ... Please send a pointer to the Gleitz/Bellovin paper > > Regards, > Mark. > > * Peter M. Gleitz and Steve Bellovin have written a paper > called "Transient Addressing for Related Processes: Improved > Firewalling by Using IPV6 and Multiple Addresses per Host", > which seems to suggest doing this. I've only had a chance to > briefly read the abstract, so I don't know how feasible or > practical it would be to deploy this idea. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 09:55:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EGt2U7017761; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EGt1n6017760; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EGssU7017753 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EGq9V7019705 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EGq4jL004878 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) id h7EGpuk21426; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200308141651.h7EGpuk21426@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: from Pekka Savola at "Aug 14, 3 06:16:53 pm" To: pekkas@netcore.fi (Pekka Savola) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Cc: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk % On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: % [...] % > PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) % % To be clear, there seems to be a rather large number of people who think % that DHCPv6 will be used to configure "other" fancy stuff on network (e.g. % DNS resolver addresses). % % I don't think all that many would step up if we stirred in the address % assignment of DHCPv6 to the mix. there was a hairbrained idea to have Internic (pre-RIR) run the DHCP server for the Internet... :) from the old PIER wg... things that don't like renumbering: BGP endpoints SNMP agents & collectors & network mgmt code syslog DNS authoritative servers DHCP servers (anything w/ access controls or policy based on IP addresses) (anything w/ hardcoded or well-known addresses) -- --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 10:00:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EH04U7018064; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EH04id018063; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EGxvU7018056 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EGvDUu009344 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EGv7jk017949 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:57:14 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:56:15 -0700 Message-ID: <0a5001c36284$f9d3d380$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F374DAA.7CD6290E@motorola.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7EGxxU7018057 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Andrew White wrote: > ... > > I would like to point out again, that as per my suggestion, > nodes MUST > > NOT send, receive or forward traffic in which the source and > > destination addresses are not of the same scope. > > I think this is unnecessarily stringent. Certainly nodes > should prefer not to send packets with non-matching 'scopes' > (see "default address selection"), but I don't see it as an > error condition to do so. In the past I agreed with you, but lately I have been more convinced that it is a logical error. There is nothing that will prevent someone from doing this if local policy says to allow it, but I think the default policy should be that local/global mismatches are disallowed. This would make it simpler to set up a condition where the policy is 'file mount is only bound to local', node X only has a global address, therefore X is not allowed to export a file system. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 10:06:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EH60U7018199; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EH60MV018198; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EH5sU7018191 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EH39Uu012236 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EH33jk022695 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:03:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:03:10 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'IPv6'" Subject: RE: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:02:11 -0700 Message-ID: <0a5b01c36285$cdf4a2c0$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F378876.26B142D9@zurich.ibm.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > ... > > The requirement was met fine by the SL prefix; the only reason they > > still are ambiguous is because both Bob and I put our > drafts to remove > > ambiguity from SLs on the back burner due to the deprecation > > situation. > > Sure, at one level it doesn't matter whether the limited > addresses are FEC0:xxxx::/48 or as proposed in draft-hinden. > I think it's better for existing code to leave FEC0::/10 > reserved and deprecated, but that's a secondary argument. >From a software perspective the prefix doesn't matter. At some point the WG is going to have to decide if the costs (including the time delay) for changing any hardware that recognizes FEC0::/10 outweighs the perceived advantages of a 'clean' prefix, or not. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 10:54:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EHsLU7021417; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EHsLcC021416; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EHsIU7021409 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EHpXUu000545 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EHpS6V029605 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7EHpQR07326 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:26 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308141751> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdKMbHKl; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:51:23 PDT Message-ID: <3F3BCDE4.9040507@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:59:00 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804101306.02d31bd0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000207080103090003040005" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000207080103090003040005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, A -01 version of this draft is now available (see below). Please note the title change, and other items listed in the "change log" section. We are bulding a collection of items pending for a -02 update, so please send comments. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com --------------000207080103090003040005 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="imap-message://ftemplin@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com/I-D Action#5867" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="imap-message://ftemplin@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com/I-D Action#5867" Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id HAA20325; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7EEhHJ17945; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:43:17 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308141443> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.0.236, claiming to be "psmtp.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd6RDVtr; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:43:14 PDT Received: from source ([205.226.0.203]) by mpdev01 ([205.226.0.236]) with SMTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:27:34 PDT Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailigned.iprg.nokia.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h7EEj9He026855; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:45:09 -0700 Received: from asgard.ietf.org(132.151.6.40) via SMTP by mailigned.iprg.nokia.com, id smtpdgpa4SG; Thu Aug 14 07:45:07 2003 Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19nJ4g-0006qy-M6 for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:34 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19nJ4Q-0006qH-4G for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:18 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11895 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308141427.KAA11895@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:13 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-announce@ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-pstn-levels: (C:83.4523 M:98.0684 P:95.9108 R:95.9108 S:14.8452 ) X-pstn-settings: 3 (1.0000:1.0000) pmCr X-pstn-addresses: from --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2003-8-14 The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for addressing to support local communications within sites. Of special interest are 'active sites', e.g., sites that are intermittently-connected or disconnected from the global Internet, sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, sites that temporarily or permanently merge with other sites, multi-homed sites, etc. This memo will discuss addressing requirements for local communications within sites. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-14091718.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-14091718.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- --------------000207080103090003040005-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 11:15:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EIFKU7022533; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EIFKIE022528; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EIFDU7022510 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EICTV7020929 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EICN5K006344 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.jinmei.org (unknown [2001:4f8:3:bb:7d6f:67fb:ebfc:acef]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA2915263; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:12:20 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:12:19 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Ralph Droms Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <20030814102448.GH6028@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/21.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:35:57 -0400, >>>>> Ralph Droms said: > Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to quantify is > the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition > state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. > Will this transition state work in practice? Has anyone actually tried it? Not sure if this answers your question, but we tried site-(IPv6)renumbering in an experimental environment 3 years ago. In that testing, we had a transition state with the both old and new prefixes. The presentation slides of a report at an IETF meeting are available at the following URL: http://www.jinmei.org/mgp/ietf49-renumber/ JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 11:21:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EILQU7022648; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EILQjB022647; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EILKU7022639 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EIIZUu010318 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EIIUjk014936 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:18:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7EIILC21310; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:18:21 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308141818> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdcvB6Mc; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:18:20 PDT Message-ID: <3F3BD435.7060602@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:25:57 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ralph Droms CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI References: <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20030814071657.00b82c98@funnel.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph, Ralph Droms wrote: > Taking Carlos' analysis a step further, there are two kinds of "stuff" > that > has to be fixed during a renumbering event: stuff that can be fixed > automatically (cost essentially independent of network complexity) and > stuff > that has to be fixed manually (cost that scales with network complexity). > For example, addresses assigned through autoconf can be fixed > automatically > while hard-wired addresses buried in config files have to be fixed > manually. How would you categorize "stuff that is cached in data structures supporting active sessions/applications"? Seems to me that this stuff needs to either be immune to renumbering events or gracefully responsive to renumbering events. > At the risk of over-simplification, there will be cost savings in > renumbering IPv6 networks - cost savings that can be directly > attributed to > IPv6 - if there is more stuff in the first category for an IPv6 > network than > for an IPv4 network. That is, if we can point at stuff that can be fixed > automatically in an IPv6 network, we can identify cost savings. > > The cost savings analysis in the previous paragraph focuses on time (and > $$$s) saved by network admins. Another cost metric might be > time-to-renumber; that is, how quickly can a renumbering event be > completed. > For example, IPv4 hosts using DHCP can be automatically renumbered, but > there is a latency in the renumbering related to the length of the > leases on > the addresses assigned through DHCP. IPv6 hosts using autoconf can be > automatically renumbered by changing the advertised prefixes, presumably > with less latency. > > Another potential advantage for IPv6 that is a little harder to > quantify is > the notion of "graceful" renumbering - the ability to have a transition > state in which both the old and new prefixes are in use simultaneously. > Will this transition state work in practice? Has anyone actually > tried it? Yes, I have tried it in fielded demonstrations - but, I don't have a good sense as to whether you can consider this "practice". I can't make any claims as to robustness, responsiveness to renumbering events, etc; only that it makes for an interesting demonstration. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > So, here are three ways to assess the renumbering advantages for IPv6: > > * Stuff moves from "manually configured" in IPv4 to "automatically > configured" in IPv6, as a direct result of the design of IPv6 > * Renumbering latency is reduced > * Renumbering is enabled by IPv6 (graceful renumbering) that can't be > accomplished with IPv4 > > - Ralph > > At 11:24 AM 8/14/2003 +0100, Tim Chown wrote: > >> Carlos, the question is "where are the cost savings in renumbering an >> IPv6 network as opposed to renumbering an IPv4 network". >> >> Tim >> >> PS. According to dnsop people, everyone will use DHCPv6(!) >> >> On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:20:07AM +0100, Carlos Friacas wrote: >> > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Tim Chown wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 02:57:05PM -0400, Keith Moore wrote: >> > > > >> > > > IPv6 gives users better ways to solve some problems (renumbering, >> > > > attachment of a home network) whereas in IPv4 NATs were the >> > > > best tools available. >> > > >> > > So where are the cost savings in renumbering an IPv6 network as >> opposed to >> > > renumbering an IPv4 network? This would be an interesting >> question to expand >> > > on I think... >> > >> > renumbering an IPv4 network: >> > - The 1st critical parameter is *size*. >> > *if* you are not using dhcp, even in an /27 segment (30 hosts if 100% >> > used) it can be real hard to renumber. it consumes *time*, although >> being >> > a simple/basic task. If you have a /24 or /23, well.. it is a real >> pain. >> > - The 2nd critical parameter is how many "hard-wired" addresses >> > (regarding services) you have inside it. >> > dns servers are usually the biggest pain. if you use dhcp, >> resolvers are >> > not a problem (if they are inside the network being renumbered), >> you just >> > have to change a parameter in the dhcp server, if not it is a pain. >> > but the trickiest/hardest part usually lies with authoritative >> > nameservers -- If your "upper levels" (forwards and reverses) >> aren't fast >> > enough to respond, you will think twice before going into a >> renumber. :-) >> > >> > renumbering an IPv6 network: >> > - The 2nd critical parameter i've mentioned is also valid for IPv6. >> :-((( >> > >> > One more comment: >> > Renumbering from 6BONE addresses to RIR addresses... it might be a >> good >> > solution/idea to still route the /128s associated with addresses >> that are >> > in somewhat way hard-wired to some services, as part of the phase-out >> > process. e.g: keep the routing to 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::1/128 in your IGP to >> > 2001:XYZW:1:2::1/128, but stop configuring 3FFE:XYZW:1:2::/64 on its >> > gateway/router. This will prevent other machines to get a prefix in >> 3FFE, >> > but still guarantees the connectivity to one single server in the >> "6bone >> > context". >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > ./Carlos "Upgrade the Internet! -- >> Now!" >> > -------------- [http://www.ip6.fccn.pt] >> http://www.fccn.pt >> > , CMF8-RIPE, CF596-ARIN, Wide Area Network Workgroup >> > FCCN - Fundacao para a Computacao Cientifica Nacional fax:+351 >> 218472167 >> > >> > "Internet is just routes (125953/461), naming (millions) and... >> people!" >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >> IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >> FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >> Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 13:27:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EKRrU7028498; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EKRrb5028497; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EKRnU7028490 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EKP4Uu023713 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EKOx5K022561 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3D614075 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25265-13; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663131402B; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:24:53 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-00.txt Message-Id: <20030814162453.4c1cceb8.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I've just submitted a proposal for how to make use of stable, limited range addresses on a local network without advertising those addresses in DNS (or other application referral mechanisms) - and which I hope will therefore minimize leakage. The idea is to advertise potential prefix substitutions using an extension to RA. Since the "limited range" addresses are only exposed through RA (no need to expose them in DNS or elsewhere), then I think they should be less likely to leak out and cause problems. This proposal doesn't limit the organization to a single "range scope", or for that matter, a single stable prefix. different stable prefixes can be used within different portions of the same network if that is found to be desirable. In contrast to draft-bellovin-ipv6-accessprefix, this proposal doesn't make any claims about the suitability of substituted prefixes for access control- in fact, use of a substitute prefix is always optional. My proposal is only intended to allow consenting apps to discover a prefix that is stable across renumbering events. virtual preprints available at http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/I-D/draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-00.txt Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 14:02:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EL2iU7028550; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EL2gqH028549; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EL2TU7028542 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EKxhUu003860 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EKxc5K011388 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572DA14075; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29450-05; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852B814067; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:59:35 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipv6@nosense.org, pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030814165935.2c2675a1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <0a4e01c36282$b438aeb0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030814125014.15b72608.ipv6@nosense.org> <0a4e01c36282$b438aeb0$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > * To some degree this is the deployment model. Not to explicitly > allocate an address to an individual app, but to allocate addresses > with the characteristics of 'local use' and 'global use', then have > the apps bind to the appropriate one. This is not an appropriate model. It doesn't actually aid security, and it makes the apps more complex without any sound justification for doing so. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 14:03:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EL3eU7028560; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7EL3ei7028559; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7EL3WU7028552 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7EL0lUu004136 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EL0fjk023765 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:00:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F4214067; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29774-03; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A541402B; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:00:40 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Geoff Huston's draft and the intended use of the hinden/templin address space Message-Id: <20030814170040.5d4d514c.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <0a5001c36284$f9d3d380$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F374DAA.7CD6290E@motorola.com> <0a5001c36284$f9d3d380$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I think the default policy should > be that local/global mismatches are disallowed. This would make it > simpler to set up a condition where the policy is 'file mount is only > bound to local', node X only has a global address, therefore X is not > allowed to export a file system. The default policy should be that everyone should use the same address. It is not appropriate to tie access control to addresses. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 19:05:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F25qU7000377; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7F25qRu000376; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F25nU7000369 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7F233Uu025022 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7F22ujk016180 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:02:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (123.cust10.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.153.123]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D75B83F032; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:32:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:32:58 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Tony Hain" Cc: pekkas@netcore.fi, mansaxel@sunet.se, fredrik@packetfront.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: apps people? Message-Id: <20030815113258.1392fef4.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <0a4e01c36282$b438aeb0$70144104@eagleswings> References: <20030814125014.15b72608.ipv6@nosense.org> <0a4e01c36282$b438aeb0$70144104@eagleswings> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:39:59 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > ... > > > So is this a statement that the approach is not useful in > > government > > > networks, or a statement that the tool is inadequate > > because it does > > > not solve the government network problems? > > > > > > > I think it is inadequate, because it doesn't provide the > > resolution necessary to implement a number of customers' > > security access requirements. My examples above hopefully show that. > > The examples show there environments more complex than a simple tool can > deal with. That does not make the tool inadequate for the simple > environments. > Fair enough. Obviously route filtering is not the only tool necessary in complex enviroments, nor the first one that will be used, which is what I though you were initially suggesting. > > ... > > > This shows IPv4 thinking, where the network has a single > > prefix / L2. > > > While I agree the initial deployments will likely mirror the IPv4 > > > network, there is no reason to preclude having additional > > prefixes / > > > L2, where the reachability characteristics are different. > > > > > > > I agree. > > > > But unless we are going to be able to allocate IPv6 addresses > > to applications*, I don't think route filtering is ever going > > to be as effective as packet filtering on individual network > > layer addresses and / or TCP / UDP ports. And that is a very > > common security request. > > Yes that is a common security request, but it falls flat on its face when > the TCP/UDP ports are masked by IPsec, or simply spoofed by the application > (ie: both ends agree that 80 is a remote file mount). Absolutely. Thats another reason why implementing security at the application end-points, eg., by identifying the user, not the machine they are coming from, will become a far more effective. Various "tunnel over http" and other techniques take advantage of this fact. (http://openvpn.sf.net is the best example I've seen - uses UDP, with a selectable port, SSL for encryption, and uses SSL session IDs for tunnel end point identification ie. the tunnel end point IP addresses can change, and the tunnel still works - nice for flakey dial up links, or ADSL sessions where your ISP insists on occasionally changing your IP address. Under linux, it can emulate an ethernet interface, so IPv6 autoconfiguration just works. I wonder how many firewalls thoroughly check the contents of UDP port 53 a.k.a DNS traffic ...) To your earlier > comment about filtering is free, it really isn't. Yes it is included in the > box, but doing the work requires time (increased app latency), or dedicated > hardware (increased device cost), so it isn't free. > I agree it isn't free. But it is common for the router to have enough excess capacity such that it is effectively free, when compared with e.g., creating a new layer 2 segment, allocating a new prefix, possibly purchasing and implementing a firewall for that segment, developing a new firewall rule set to suit the user(s) and renumbering. After implementing this filtering, I've never come across a user who has complained about performance. > * To some degree this is the deployment model. Not to explicitly allocate an > address to an individual app, but to allocate addresses with the > characteristics of 'local use' and 'global use', then have the apps bind to > the appropriate one. If a local policy is more complex than the simple two > layers, it will need additional (out of scope for this approach) mechanisms > to sort out which app should be bound to which address. > > Tony > > ... Please send a pointer to the Gleitz/Bellovin paper > My pleasure. http://www.research.att.com/~smb/papers/tarp.pdf Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 20:49:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F3n6U7001109; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7F3n6EI001108; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F3n3U7001100 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7F3kIUu014800 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7F3kCjk024358 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:46:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A53B9D1; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:46:12 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:46:11 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D160F@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6AACsTKsAAPku5wACJLLQAA25s10A== From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2003 03:46:12.0006 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5128460:01C362DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7F3n3U7001102 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Valid. If it goes to RFC status will that make you comfortable? thanks /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:11 PM > To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside > > > Jim, > > >>> Jim Bound wrote: > >>> If we simply say these NEVER leave the site then > >>> all is fine. Thats the bottom line. > > >> Michel Py wrote. > >> I'm ok with that. Not only never leave the site but > >> making >sure that they can't. > > > Even better yes. They "can't". > > You can't guarantee that for the Hinden/Haberman draft, which > is the reason I will not use it until we have a solution on a > PI-like setup. It's a matter of risk: If I use the > Hinden/Haberman draft as private addresses, and if it ends up > being perverted as PI, my entire network design goes to the > trash. If I hijack a random prefix for private addresses, the > risk of collisions although not null is a lot less. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 20:50:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F3oYU7001131; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7F3oYHg001130; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F3oVU7001123 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7F3llV7008452 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7F3lf5K004569 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDF2B84B; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:47:41 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:47:40 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1610@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNa0f45aUMNuA0hSpyZUfnmZMrsqADsNR5AAAs1QIAADkskYAAjGWMwANqs68A= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2003 03:47:41.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA44FC80:01C362DF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7F3oVU7001124 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Yes I am. Middle name is risk. Sometimes folks don't want it sometimes they do. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 3:30 PM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > > > Jim, > > >>> Jim Bound wrote: > >>> But what we cannot do is discuss it for the > >>> next year leaving the market in limbo? > > >> The reason the market is in limbo in the first place > >> is deprecation without a replacement. If the market did > >> not need SLs it would not have gone in limbo over the > >> issue. > > > Agreed. But we had a bug and a big one. > > You are awfully cavalier with taking such risks with the > market. What if the market does not like the replacement? The > market will stay in limbo. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 21:56:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F4uGU7001755; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7F4uGDU001754; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F4uCU7001747 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7F4rOUu025898 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7F4rJb6010068 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:53:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19FF1407C; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16521-07; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558D814004; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:51:22 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Message-Id: <20030815005122.2123d88f.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1610@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1610@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > You are awfully cavalier with taking such risks with the > > market. What if the market does not like the replacement? The > > market will stay in limbo. > Yes I am. Middle name is risk. Sometimes folks don't want it sometimes > they do. IPv6 offers no value if it does not do things differently than IPv4. If you want the illusion of predictability, stick with IPv4. If you want something that might work better, try IPv6. (Actually you can do both, use IPv4 for some apps and IPv6 for others._ But the cost of having things work better is change. And there cannot be change without risk. Therefore IPv6 is pointless without risk. The desire to improve something while avoiding all risk is the primary cause of second-system effect. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 14 22:57:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F5v8U7002155; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7F5v8cT002154; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7F5v5U7002147 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7F5sKUu004924 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7F5sF5K029035 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: site-local observations from the outside Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:54:13 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: site-local observations from the outside Thread-Index: AcNaqKy8S73jKL6FSkGISuIV8kiiawAAHXAgAPVnp6AACsTKsAAPku5wACJLLQAA25s10AAEbUtA Content-class: urn:content-classes:message From: "Michel Py" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 To: "Jim Bound" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7F5v5U7002148 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, > Jim Bound wrote: > Valid. If it goes to RFC status will that make > you comfortable? Nope. The very point I am trying to make is that RFC != enforcement mechanism. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 15 06:27:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7FDROU7004302; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7FDROvp004301; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7FDRLU7004294 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7FDOaUu013604 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7FDOT5K019388 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7FDOONG052556; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:24:24 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7FDOLsT234090; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:24:21 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA33380; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:24:14 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3CDEF9.28A47EFB@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:24:09 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'IPv6'" Subject: Re: draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt References: <0a5b01c36285$cdf4a2c0$70144104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > ... > > > The requirement was met fine by the SL prefix; the only reason they > > > still are ambiguous is because both Bob and I put our > > drafts to remove > > > ambiguity from SLs on the back burner due to the deprecation > > > situation. > > > > Sure, at one level it doesn't matter whether the limited > > addresses are FEC0:xxxx::/48 or as proposed in draft-hinden. > > I think it's better for existing code to leave FEC0::/10 > > reserved and deprecated, but that's a secondary argument. > > >From a software perspective the prefix doesn't matter. At some point the WG > is going to have to decide if the costs (including the time delay) for > changing any hardware that recognizes FEC0::/10 outweighs the perceived > advantages of a 'clean' prefix, or not. Please read carefully the exact text of the "deprecation" section of the deprecation draft, which is coming very shortly (as requested in Vienna). I think its phrasing addresses this point. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 17 08:47:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7HFl9U3011268; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7HFl9YC011267; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7HFl6U3011260 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7HFiKV7017489 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7HFiDfg019390 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:44:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7HFhmg31435; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:43:57 +0200 Message-ID: <3F3FA2B3.2020602@it.su.se> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:43:47 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mans Nilsson CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI References: <3F333E40.6090101@it.su.se> <07af01c3608f$16d6c6b0$70144104@eagleswings> <20030812105112.4a937c31.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F39151E.30202@iprg.nokia.com> <20030812135505.48cc0074.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16185.18994.485540.794090@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030812164154.304ce13c.moore@cs.utk.edu> <16186.33247.567545.52286@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> <20030813145705.5eecd59d.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20030814090753.GH4449@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <20030814130457.GJ75063@sunet.se> In-Reply-To: <20030814130457.GJ75063@sunet.se> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mans Nilsson wrote: > >Still, I wonder why I'm debating this here. It is v6ops material. > > Hmm Yes. One of the ops ADs even spoke up to support Måns in this, which is a hint as good as any imho. Go request a slot for a renumbering-BOF at the next IETF and lets move on. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 17 14:41:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7HLfsU3012409; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7HLfsfa012408; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7HLfpU3012401 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7HLd4Uu019184 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7HLcw96027675 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:38:55 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Mans Nilsson'" Cc: Subject: RE: inevitability of PI Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:37:39 -0700 Message-ID: <0c7401c36507$ca491730$70144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F3FA2B3.2020602@it.su.se> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7HLfpU3012402 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Forming a WG to fantasize about renumbering will not suddenly remove the edge network manager's requirement for stable address space. The only way this comes close to being an Ops problem is due to the lack of reliability & scale in DNS. As long as end users feel that name resolution is insufficiently reliable to meet their business goals, they will continue to embed literal addresses in applications & databases that are outside the network manager's control. If you want to form an Ops WG, create one to provide a reliable replacement for DNS. Architectural management of the address space belongs in this WG, and there is a requirement for space which is not currently allocated. If you don't want to participate in that discussion, fine. Just stop getting in the way of those that are trying to solve real day-to-day problems. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Leif Johansson > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 8:44 AM > To: Mans Nilsson > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: inevitability of PI > > > Mans Nilsson wrote: > > > > >Still, I wonder why I'm debating this here. It is v6ops material. > > > > > Hmm Yes. One of the ops ADs even spoke up to support Måns in > this, which is a hint as good as any imho. Go request a slot > for a renumbering-BOF > at the > next IETF and lets move on. > > Cheers Leif > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 17 18:16:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7I1GtU3013073; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7I1GtK6013072; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7I1GoU3013065 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7I1E0Uu019467 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7I1Dsfg014060 for ; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:13:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E63914061; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04881-06; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFC61405D; Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:11:51 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, mansaxel@sunet.se, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI Message-Id: <20030817211151.5666736a.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <0c7401c36507$ca491730$70144104@eagleswings> References: <3F3FA2B3.2020602@it.su.se> <0c7401c36507$ca491730$70144104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk For once, Tony and I are in agreement. This has nothing to do with operations; it has everything to do with the programming model that the v6 Internet supports. But I'll go even farther. You can improve DNS reliability a bit through saner operations, but you still can't make DNS good enough to replace addresses as endpoint identifiers. DNS names are already used (some would say "overloaded") for too many different things for us to start insisting that they be usable as stable endpoint identifiers. Furthermore, the very structure of DNS (the size and structure of the names, way the names are federated, the way lookups are federated) also makes it unsuitable for this purpose. Keith > Forming a WG to fantasize about renumbering will not suddenly remove the > edge network manager's requirement for stable address space. The only way > this comes close to being an Ops problem is due to the lack of reliability & > scale in DNS. As long as end users feel that name resolution is > insufficiently reliable to meet their business goals, they will continue to > embed literal addresses in applications & databases that are outside the > network manager's control. If you want to form an Ops WG, create one to > provide a reliable replacement for DNS. > > Architectural management of the address space belongs in this WG, and there > is a requirement for space which is not currently allocated. If you don't > want to participate in that discussion, fine. Just stop getting in the way > of those that are trying to solve real day-to-day problems. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 00:37:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7I7bnU3013977; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7I7bnWK013976; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7I7bjU3013969 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7I7YwUu014779 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (dhcp-fh8-7.it.su.se [130.237.152.7]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7I7Yp96017940 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:34:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7I9YXM02871; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:34:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3F409DA9.4040808@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:34:33 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: Tony Hain , mansaxel@sunet.se, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: inevitability of PI References: <3F3FA2B3.2020602@it.su.se> <0c7401c36507$ca491730$70144104@eagleswings> <20030817211151.5666736a.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030817211151.5666736a.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >For once, Tony and I are in agreement. This has nothing to do with >operations; it has everything to do with the programming model that the v6 >Internet supports. > > > I am saving this email :-) Who am I to argue with such overwhelming opposition. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQtU3014866; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQsUk014863; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQYU3014815 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNlUu000134 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNfd6010872 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNYpC000593; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:54:31 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Michael Thomas" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The same is true if we create a swamp again and allow individual /48s > in > the global routing table. Then IPv6 will become IPv4 with more bits, > and > in the current economy the net result will be more NAT-aware apps. I'm > sorry to say it bluntly, but today IPv4 is unavoidable and if the only > edge IPv6 has is a bigger address space I'm afraid it won't be enough > to > cut it. IPv6 IS IPv4 with more bits. > 1. Even if we say that NATv6 is evil, there is little we can do to > prevent it from happening except providing a solution that would bring > somehow similar advantages. We don't need to encourage it... - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzj/qqarNKXTPFCVEQJJ0wCg3io0+MLVfB/pl+2qMao2FOsdIVwAoOl9 IYMty33YJrXtYX0rDeLIG2uq =/SJh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQSU3014803; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQSs0014802; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQNU3014788 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNZV7017883 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNTfg026432 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNRpC000584; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:42:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Bob Hinden From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804145943.02cf5dd8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-Id: <25AB0166-CCD3-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > If we had new routing technology that could handle globally routable > provider independent addresses, then it would have to be deployed in > most routers in the Internet before it would be useful. Probably all > routers from the site boundary to the core of the Internet. Given > that I suspect any solution in this area would not be an incremental > changes to a routers implementation (i.e., not another BGP extension), > perhaps even changes to the routers route lookup engines (in hardware > in many cases) this would likely take a long time to accomplish. > Also, a bit of a chicken and egg deployment problem that everyone > working on IPv6 understands too well. We will need to go through this anyway. Local scoped addresses will probably make that transition even harder. > We don't have any structure in place to allocate and register these > types of addresses. The registries might be able to do it, but as > they are currently structured they are mostly focused on ISPs, not > individual sites. This would require some major changes in their > structure and perhaps funding models. Right now every site would have > to be an LIR. Erh, no. Perhaps every enterprise the sites belong to though. > Assuming routing technology was available and all of the routers were > modified to support the new routing technology, then there would have > to be some incentive for the ISP to want to carry these type of > routes. They are great for the customers, but it makes it easy for > their customers to switch ISPs. We have seen how well the phone > providers have embraced provider independent phone numbers. They only > "agreed" to support them after governmental action. This has not been a problem in most European countries that I know of. But I am no expert on this. I know that in Sweden it is currently the other way around. - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzj8wqarNKXTPFCVEQL1iACfYlhbH1E/PWlb/+/XogOp/9M9proAoMl8 goDWYdJi5Z+ds0MsxXJM0sZV =iDGL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQMU3014786; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQMZ8014785; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQIU3014778 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNVV7017880 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNPd6010746 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNLpC000578; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:13:06 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Bob Hinden From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-Id: <181078CB-CCCF-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7ICQJU3014779 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am away on vacation and have missed all the fun...for what i matters, I think A is the way to go. That sends a clear signal to network managers, implementors etc. B and C will leave us in a vacuum. - - kurtis - On måndag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:06 Europe/Stockholm, Bob Hinden wrote: > [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > > We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > , a specific alternative > to site-local addresses draft > (accepted as a working > group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > reasonable alternative. > > I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > I think the choices are: > > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > alternative solution available. This would mean that the working > group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution > documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was > no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. > > B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > the same time and making them include normative references to each > other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not > advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence > that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local addresses. > > Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. > I hope that many of you will respond. > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzj19KarNKXTPFCVEQJZzQCdHjcxPaPeKuBHmvNVqf0Y4DQfGewAoJpN BZoTYaGChp06+4mtxxKHZO+i =FDvu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:27:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICR5U3014869; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICR4OA014868; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQdU3014829 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNpV7017930 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNjfg026521 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNhpC000608; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:44:29 +0200 Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F31D4AE.F49079FB@motorola.com> Message-Id: <3DB0C415-CCE4-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On torsdag, aug 7, 2003, at 06:25 Europe/Stockholm, Andrew White wrote: > Because (in the current context) there's no such thing? A local > address is > an address that promises to be filtered. Where? What determines the cope? Configuration? Then it's easier filtering global addresses..... - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzkZb6arNKXTPFCVEQLfnACdE+4Of0Q9Sm1q2sgYDcLnAduMYO8AmgOH aU8pwyUyaDmpSuGy9MYUrTHh =mXDA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:27:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICR9U3014877; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICR9S1014874; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQdU3014831 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNpUu000139 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNjfg026522 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNdpC000599; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:41:34 +0200 Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Eliot Lear" , "Bob Hinden" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <73E0C859-CCDB-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 06:40 Europe/Stockholm, Michel Py wrote: > That being said, the hard facts are that a) as of today 42% of my IPv6 > BGP routing table is made of /48s, /64s and other crud and b) lots of > ISP will think twice before refusing my $2.5k/yr to announce my prefix. That is also because the ISPs realize that the current ~400 routes are far from a problem. Actually the 130k routes in IPv4 is not creating a problem either. Other characteristics of BGP might, but I haven't seen a reference to the number of routes creating a problem. Yes, they will cost the ISPs money, but that is why they are accepting your money. Filtering routes have it's advantages, especially in IPv4. With 400 routes, I still fail to see the problem. On the contrary, it tells me we have plenty of time to solve the real problem. - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzkKsqarNKXTPFCVEQLnngCgumYK3h6qjsqZyF3zPhVrr7EYAwwAnRH9 8u8GKMxnvcBIAxYq8hxIvmOT =/sYB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQrU3014864; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQqVk014860; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQYU3014816 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNgUu000124 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNafg026470 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNUpC000587; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:45:41 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'Michel Py'" , To: "Jeroen Massar" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <006c01c35ae4$30553640$210d640a@unfix.org> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 01:57 Europe/Stockholm, Jeroen Massar wrote: > Fortunatly there are clued ISP's who do filter accordingly to: > http://www.space.net/~gert/RIPE/ipv6-filters.html > I would advise and even try to pursuade people to run them in strict > mode... > I am still more worried about ever reaching a 1000 routes, or any significant number of routes... - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzj9mKarNKXTPFCVEQKElACfaFS4X1Az6+br8rX9B1KDBdqf7wMAnij0 +pNubI1qlaGv12anRQ3Lt/zT =QLv9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:27:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICR5U3014871; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICR5EW014870; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQfU3014843 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNrUu000145 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNlfg026532 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNepC000602; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:45:47 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Alain Durand , Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, gih@telstra.net To: Aidan Williams From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F30BC9C.7050705@motorola.com> Message-Id: <0AF616D7-CCDC-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On onsdag, aug 6, 2003, at 10:30 Europe/Stockholm, Aidan Williams wrote: > >> -2. Realize that if the issue at stake here has more to do with >> getting addresses >> than with their actual scope/range, something probably can be >> done working with the registries. > > I don't think that is true. The local-ness of these addresses avoids > the issue of having to scalably route the PI space. I can't see > significant differences in process between globally unique local > address allocation and a globally unique PI address allocation. Bingo! So let's kill SLs and start working on the real issue... - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzkLrqarNKXTPFCVEQLyUQCgt7+tzyMngo5TUPuI7WbC1OHVn+YAn08g wAzxQnfB+CeFXihapfelJMD1 =VTbj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQUU3014806; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQUIJ014805; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQPU3014795 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNaV7017887 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNUd6010776 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNNpC000581; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:32:36 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Jordi Palet Martinez" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On tisdag, aug 5, 2003, at 00:14 Europe/Stockholm, Michel Py wrote: > If we were not > able to fix site-locals I wonder where the silver bullet to replace > them > is. > Solve the multi6 problem. Look at Geoffs presentations from the last IEPG. There is still time. - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzj6iKarNKXTPFCVEQJ97wCeM2ajKPvg1S2jHzY6CoVeww7HJIcAoMdU LUuH/Icj2BZj830afDbRrEwq =e/s2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:27:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICRCU3014880; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICRCrZ014879; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQdU3014830 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNpUu000138 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNjfg026520 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNgpC000605; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:40:30 +0200 Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: IPng To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F31B159.19453F8D@motorola.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Why do this example give me the feeling that we are arguing over sacrificing the functionality for the majority for a few special cases. The real problem is a long-term scalable private address solution. There are other WG(s) looking at that. - - kurtis - On torsdag, aug 7, 2003, at 03:54 Europe/Stockholm, Andrew White wrote: > A 'real life' deployment scenario. > > (a) I set up a local network. I currently have no ISP, but I want my > network to 'just work' out of the box. This network consists of > (initially) > three routers, plus other infrastructure. > > (b) Sometime later I decide I want internet connectivity, so I connect > to an > ISP. I add my ISP provided address to my network in addition to the > address/es that are there already. For argument's sake, let's say the > ISP > doesn't have IPv6 capability, so I use a 6to4 address. > > I do not want my internal addressing exposed outside the network, so I > filter my addresses. I do use the ISPs addresses for external > connectivity. > > (c+d) Meanwhile, my friend has done the same thing, except that his > ISP DOES > offer IPv6, so he has a 'real' IPv6 address. > > (e) We connect our two local networks together (either by VPN tunnel > or a > wireless link - doesn't matter). We can now send local traffic to each > other, and out either ISP. > > (f) Sometime later I disconnect my ISP, and we use just his ISP. > > (g) Sometime later I disconnect my network from his. > > (h) Sometime later I register with a new ISP, and get a new IPv6 > prefix. > > > Salient points: > > (1) At points (a), (c) and (g) we have networks that are standalone > and have > no connection to an ISP or the global internet. Further, the networks > in > (a) and (c) have never had such a connection. The users don't want to > have > to register to get an address that works. > > (2) In (b), the external (6to4) prefix is unstable. Many ISPs > allocate a > temporary IPv4 internet address, and change these frequently. > > (3) The set of global prefixes valid for the network changes over time. > (a) None > (b) #1 (my 6to4) > (e) #1 and #2 (friend's v6) > (f) #2 > (g) None > (h) #3 (my new v6) > > (4) The only 'reliable' address that the hosts in my network have is > the > local one they started with. > > This example is quite similar to Tony's research ship example, with the > possible caveat that a research ship might be big and organised enough > to > register with an ISP to get an address space plus connectivity they > never > intend to use. > > > Consequences: > > - I need some form of local addressing that is not dependent on anyone > or > anything connected to the global internet. > > - I need this local addressing unique enough that I can safely join my > network and my friend's network together and allow them to swap > prefixes. > > - I want hosts in my network to prefer my local address scheme when > talking > to other hosts in my network. I want hosts in my network to prefer > one of > the local schemes when talking to hosts in my friend's network (since I > don't want the packets to leave 'our' network). I want hosts in my > network > to prefer global addresses when talking externally. > > - I want my local addresses filtered at appropriate borders, preferably > without having to set it up myself. > > - The ISPs probably want my local addresses filtered too. > > > Looks suspiciously like the filtered local address proposal, doesn't > it? > > -- > Andrew White > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzkYgaarNKXTPFCVEQJGPQCfQyCGGvUIDc62X8dV6GUgd6eec/sAoKX1 QpWklU58OMWlsP71UNC/j6Z0 =FArS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQoU3014858; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ICQnPa014857; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ICQWU3014808 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNjV7017914 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ICNdd6010850 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:23:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7ICNcpC000596; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:23:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:04:15 +0200 Subject: Re: What to do with FEC0? [was Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=fixed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Zefram To: Brian E Carpenter From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F2FD641.CAF3C1AC@zurich.ibm.com> Message-Id: <3D5D38ED-CCD6-11D7-9832-000393A638B2@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pgp-Rfc2646-Fix: 1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> I'm expecting, by the way, that the deprecation will leave fec0::/10 >> to be treated as global-scope unicast addresses, rather than making >> fec0::/10 addresses cease to function altogether. > > That's an interesting expectation. As co-author of the planned > deprecation draft, I'd been assuming a more classical deprecation > action, in which we would simply state the previous semantics of > FEC0::/10, state that the prefix SHOULD NOT be used, but leave it > permanently assigned by IANA. > > This would break nothing that runs today. > > What do people think? > As with reusing /8s in IPv4, keep as IANA reserved for a while, then use. - - kurtis - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.2 iQA/AwUBPzkB8qarNKXTPFCVEQJ3XACgsCcM7FbMBmbPoTNl6Olbsz/iVPoAoNLX 5mOa6NR4cLbZpozUGb220Zai =GhoZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 08:52:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IFqLU3017989; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7IFqLDO017988; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IFqIU3017981 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7IFnUUu014128 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (dhcp1.se.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7IFnO0k001031 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7IFn8pC000787; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:49:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:49:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , To: "Tony Hain" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <052a01c35d17$028fdf00$70144104@eagleswings> Message-Id: <80529275-D193-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk (The reason for the late reply and all the late emails is that my laptop had a disk crash during my vacation, but I had a backup with mails I had replied to but not sent...) Tony, On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 09:06 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > This whole discussion is about multihoming, which points out the > failure of > the approach to move the multihoming discussion into a separate WG. > Multi6 > should be closed NOW, and that work should be folded back into the > IPv6 WG > so there can be a comprehensive approach to the issues (this is > independent > of the fact that the thread in an Ops WG is really about > rearchitecting the > Internet). I disagree with this. The multihoming problem is not a ipv6 problem alone. > As we stand now, all discussions about multihoming are assumed to > be taking place over there, so we don't recognize the address selection > discussion as being the same thing. This is not entirely true. I remember the chairs in Vienna actually asking what we should do with this issue and where it belongs. This was also brought up in the multi6 meeting. So the issue is recognized as being similar, if not the same. Best regards, - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 11:10:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IIAiU3019007; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7IIAiUE019006; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IIAeU3018999 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7II7rUu026457 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (dhcp1.se.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7II7kfg022381 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:07:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7II7SpC000833; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:07:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:27:34 +0200 Subject: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]]) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Tony Hain" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 11:37 PM, Michel Py wrote: > >> which points out the failure of the approach to move the >> multihoming discussion into a separate WG. Multi6 should >> be closed NOW. > > As a matter of fact, by reading its charter it should have been > rechartered or shutdown in September 2001, almost two years ago. But I > hear that being two years behind objectives without any result is not a > big deal in the IETF. > Why do this when there finally is momentum? What makes the solutions better if we just move them to another WG? The charter and milestones are issues that needs to be address though. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 12:18:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IJIRU3019656; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7IJIRR9019655; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IJINU3019648 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7IJFCUu018772 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (dhcp1.se.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7IJF64C003073 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7IJElpC000853; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:14:46 +0200 Subject: Re: WG focus (was: Re: Multi-homing (was RE: Moving backward [Re: Fourth alternative [wasRe: Moving forward ....]]) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Tony Hain , Thomas Narten , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Randy Bush To: Alain Durand From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F33DE34.10709@sun.com> Message-Id: <3B13816A-D1B0-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Agreed! - kurtis - On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 07:30 PM, Alain Durand wrote: > Tony, > > I do not think it will work. Way too many efforts failed in the v6 wg > and it is time to focus, not create again a mega wg. > > I have an alternate suggestion: > - recharter the ipv6 wg to focus on advancing the protocol elements. > > - move the discussion on the operational requirements around > the issues of address stability/locality/availability to v6Ops. > after all, v6ops is the operational wg for IPv6! > > - if multi6 and/or v6ops conclude that some fundamental changes > need to happen wrt the address architecture, charter an ad-hoc wg to > focus on this problem. > > I think this course of action will enable us to make progress on this > sensitive issue. > > - Alain. > > > Tony Hain wrote: > >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>> I share Tony's frustration with long hiatus in multi6, but it seems >>> to be unstuck at the moment. I also agree that it's hard to separate >>> the topics, but I see no practical advantage in repatriating the >>> multihoming issue into this WG, which already has a diverse agenda. >>> >> >> Yes it is unstuck, but I strongly suggest it be brought back into >> this WG >> because (1) it is way outside the bounds of figuring out how to >> operate a >> multihomed network, and into rearchitecting the system in ways that >> will >> seriously undermine all assumptions about reachability and security, >> (2) is >> completely off the radar of anyone that did not stick it out through >> the >> dead time, & (3) is the root of the discussion here about the utility >> of >> simultaneous use of addresses with different reachability >> characteristics. >> Tony >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 15:11:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IMBRU3020606; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7IMBR1j020605; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7IMBOU3020598 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7IM8aV7012773 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (dhcp1.se.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7IM8T4C016114 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7IM83pC000873; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:08:01 +0200 Subject: Re: apps people? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: Keith Moore , alh-ietf@tndh.net, leifj@it.su.se, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Fred Templin From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <3F3934FB.60502@iprg.nokia.com> Message-Id: <6EF8444D-D1C8-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred, >> multi-homed sites - this is being worked on by another group. granted >> it is a difficult problem. >> > And, what are the solutions being proposed by that "other" group? > (Don't > worry; I know about multi6.) Is it HIP? Is it globally-routable PI? Is > it > something else? > > As they say at PacBell Park: "You can't know the players without a > program!" > there are two design teams as well as a number of individual submissions. HIP is one of the "individual" (well) proposals. Globally-routable-like features are the goal of most of the proposals. Globally-routable-as-is-addresses have AFAIK only been proposed by me, and then in a very short-lived bridging solution into something else. You are right that we don't know what the outcome of the design-teams will be, and we don't know how we will make the selection between them. Ideally, they are not to far enough and can be merged. But this is dependent on a lot more issues than what have been discussed here. Best regards, - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 17:33:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J0XHU3021131; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J0XHHu021130; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J0XEU3021123 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J0URV7029798 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyteen.hactrn.net (dsl092-066-068.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.66.68]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J0ULqB021848 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:30:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hactrn.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cyteen.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86F227E for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:30:19 -0400 (EDT) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Rob Austein Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:30:19 -0400 Message-Id: <20030819003019.D86F227E@cyteen.hactrn.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 18.52% | 20 | 17.85% | 96111 | moore@cs.utk.edu 12.96% | 14 | 12.25% | 65968 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 8.33% | 9 | 7.70% | 41466 | alh-ietf@tndh.net 4.63% | 5 | 6.11% | 32869 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com 4.63% | 5 | 4.84% | 26074 | mat@cisco.com 4.63% | 5 | 4.48% | 24096 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us 3.70% | 4 | 4.84% | 26057 | ipv6@nosense.org 3.70% | 4 | 4.44% | 23893 | brc@zurich.ibm.com 3.70% | 4 | 3.45% | 18572 | cfriacas@fccn.pt 2.78% | 3 | 3.82% | 20568 | nir.arad@il.marvell.com 2.78% | 3 | 2.79% | 15045 | tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk 2.78% | 3 | 2.57% | 13833 | aidan.williams@motorola.com 2.78% | 3 | 2.13% | 11487 | leifj@it.su.se 1.85% | 2 | 2.40% | 12938 | rdroms@cisco.com 1.85% | 2 | 2.02% | 10869 | pekka.nikander@nomadiclab.com 1.85% | 2 | 1.69% | 9095 | jim.bound@hp.com 1.85% | 2 | 1.64% | 8838 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com 1.85% | 2 | 1.61% | 8675 | gih@telstra.net 1.85% | 2 | 1.58% | 8502 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com 1.85% | 2 | 1.28% | 6873 | mrw@windriver.com 0.93% | 1 | 1.17% | 6299 | todd@fries.net 0.93% | 1 | 1.09% | 5866 | mansaxel@sunet.se 0.93% | 1 | 1.06% | 5719 | rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org 0.93% | 1 | 0.95% | 5125 | suresh.h.krishnan@ericsson.com 0.93% | 1 | 0.94% | 5082 | alain.durand@sun.com 0.93% | 1 | 0.82% | 4437 | fredrik@packetfront.com 0.93% | 1 | 0.79% | 4274 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp 0.93% | 1 | 0.78% | 4183 | huitema@windows.microsoft.com 0.93% | 1 | 0.77% | 4138 | swati.agarwal@hp.com 0.93% | 1 | 0.74% | 3981 | zefram@fysh.org 0.93% | 1 | 0.73% | 3917 | bmanning@isi.edu 0.93% | 1 | 0.64% | 3457 | pekkas@netcore.fi --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 108 |100.00% | 538307 | Total Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on an at-whim basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your mileage may vary. We decline responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. If this script produces broken output, you get to keep both pieces. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 17:59:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J0xHU3021476; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J0xGRe021475; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J0xDU3021468 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J0uQV7005799 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J0uKqB002447 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:56:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4166EA017; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:56:19 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:56:19 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D169F@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Thread-Index: AcNlhQgHBkbNgYoNSQSEeVOruz5zzgAZ4Gag From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" , "Michel Py" Cc: "Michael Thomas" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 00:56:20.0162 (UTC) FILETIME=[B3E98A20:01C365EC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J0xDU3021469 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >IPv6 IS IPv4 with more bits. On the contrary it is much more if you go down behind the user and look at the protocol and implementation. It depends on ones view. I am debating this with Geoff now on his Myth article and there will another article soon. /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 18:03:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J13YU3021545; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J13X4b021544; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J13UU3021537 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J10hV7006730 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J10bfg023980 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:00:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B458BB3 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wg== From: "Bound, Jim" To: Cc: "Bound, Jim" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 01:00:36.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CDF8F40:01C365ED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J13UU3021538 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Folks, Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is permitted in IPv6 for separate links. Host-L1-B Host-L1-C 3FFE:AB::MAC1 3FFE:AC::MAC2 FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC2 Link 1 ___|_____________|___________ 3FFE:AD::MAC3 | FE80::MAC3 |--- Host-LX-D0 | FE80::MAC6 Link 2______________________________| 3FFE:A0::MAC6 | | FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC5 3FFE:AE::MAC1 3FFE:AF::MAC5 Host-L2-E Host-L2-F If Host-LX-D0 user wants to ftp or telnet to Host-L2-E using FE80::MAC1 as an address 'ftp FE80::MAC1' being a multihomed host the routing or interface redirection (depending on how you wanted to implement) really does not know if it is for Link 1 or Link 2 as both will be in the destination cache potentially and duplicated, and this would be compliant to the IPv6 standard. But if Host-LX-D0 used Host-L2-E's global address 3FFE:AE::MAC1 there would be no problem, as IPv6 does not permit duplicate prefixes across links. What some implementations have done is require the user to specify the interface in addition to the address for link local (Linux did this as a note) 'ftp FE80::MAC1%Ethernet0' and other implementations perform a round robin to find the correct link-local address. The '%' is an artifact of the getaddrinfo() API as parameter. But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? What if the user sent the message to the wrong link, especially in a mission critical situation (e.g. Patient in Hospital, Telecommunications Grid, Soldiers Device in Combat). This is not good and also has security issues that can be resolved with IPsec, but an encrypted packet to the wrong link is still not good as there is a chance in the diagram above that all Hosts are in fact using same PKI and IPsec encrypt and decrypt, and the packet could be accepted. IPv6 efforts in the IETF will not solve the future scoping capabilities within the IPv6 architecture any time soon, and it will be even longer to get scoping widely implemented in the market and tested well through interoperability events. The industry requires a solution today, and I would argue there is no solution. The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom line is link-local address are not usable for applications. Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think about this issue? This mail will also be sent to the IPv6 Forum deployment effort and to several users I know of that are deploying IPv6 currently, to hear from the operational and implementation community too. Thanks /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 18:09:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J19dU3021801; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J19djD021800; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J19YU3021790 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J16lUu016721 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J16gpU007962 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h7J16frF017591 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:06:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h7J16bMP030082 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:06:39 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7J16acB013785 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:06:36 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F41781C.81E5EB0F@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:06:36 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPng Subject: Re: Real life scenario - requirements (local addressing) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > > Why do this example give me the feeling that we are arguing over > sacrificing the functionality for the majority for a few special cases. It's a special case that potentially includes most home users, SOHO users, and personal area networks. Surely there won't be more than a few hundred of them? (removes tongue from cheek) -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 18:18:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1ILU3022185; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J1ILqw022183; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1IGU3022168 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J1FOUu018956 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J1FIqB009864 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:15:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01CA96; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:15:16 +0900 (JST) To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: jim.bound's message of Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0400. <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:15:16 +0900 Message-Id: <20030819011516.B01CA96@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does >the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? we could use LLMNR to resolve names to link-local addresses, or vice versa. i have done it and it works okay. under our current implementation, LLMNR daemon talks to libc resolver by normal DNS protocol (port 53) so link identifier will be lost. however, if we use different inter-process communication, or integrate LLMNR into libc, we won't lose link identification (and we can set sin6_scope_id right). >The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the >IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that >link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address >type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be >included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be >restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor >Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other >operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom >line is link-local address are not usable for applications. I completely agree that link-local address SHOULD NOT be on public DNS database. i have already asked the author of draft-ietf-dnsop-dontpublish-unreachable-03.txt to include the text, and it is included. itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 18:20:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1KqU3022266; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J1KbfM022255; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1KWU3022244 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J1HjV7012383 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J1Hd8R005945 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h7J1HdDR018265 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:17:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h7J1HXBh008978 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:17:35 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7J1HYcB014413 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:17:34 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:17:33 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Bound, Jim" wrote: > > Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has > Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. > A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. > All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global > Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the > same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is permitted in IPv6 > for separate links. It was my understanding that duplicate MACs are not permitted by the MAC allocations, which are *supposed* to guarantee that each physical interface device has a unique MAC. Which would imply that a link-local addressed based on a MAC is in fact globally unique, by definition? What have I missed? -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 18:58:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1wCU3022924; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J1wCcm022923; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J1w8U3022916 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J1tLV7021133 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J1tF8R021744 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail5.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.156]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:02 -0700 Received: from inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.6.157]) by mail5.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:54:56 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.155 by inet-vrs-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:15 -0700 Received: from red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.198]) by inet-hub-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:55:46 -0700 Message-ID: <909EB55D24CCFD4D9ABABD1B9BD610C60B09F9DE@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows Thread-Index: AcNhKVQsV77Azcc4QPOCHTF8wapELQEydHtg X-Priority: 5 Importance: low From: "Stewart Tansley" To: "AGARWAL,SWATI \(HP-FtCollins,ex1\)" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 01:55:07.0245 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA37B1D0:01C365F4] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J1w8U3022917 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk BTW -- Microsoft has a newsgroup where such questions can be addressed: microsoft.public.platformsdk.networking.ipv6 Stewart Tansley http://research.microsoft.com/collaboration/university/ http://www.microsoft.com/ipv6 -- This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. -- -----Original Message----- From: AGARWAL,SWATI (HP-FtCollins,ex1) [mailto:swati.agarwal@hp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:50 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Trying to do a IPv6 ping on Windows -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 19:17:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2HDU3023231; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J2HDQJ023230; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2HAU3023223 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J2EMV7025132 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J2EGqB002369 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9935D3F032; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:44:13 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:44:12 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030819114412.21e77025.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:17:33 +1000 Andrew White wrote: > "Bound, Jim" wrote: > > > > Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has > > Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. > > A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. > > All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global > > Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the > > same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is permitted in IPv6 > > for separate links. > > It was my understanding that duplicate MACs are not permitted by the MAC > allocations, which are *supposed* to guarantee that each physical interface > device has a unique MAC. > > Which would imply that a link-local addressed based on a MAC is in fact > globally unique, by definition? > > What have I missed? > a) MAC addresses are reasonably easily to change. You can't guarantee that the end-users will follow the recommendations ie. enable the locally administered bit. Most networking people I've met don't know there is a "locally administered" bit in a MAC address. b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique MAC addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have apparently tended to happen within the same batch of NICs, and have been encountered when somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new NICs they have just bought, and encounter one or more duplications. c) MAC addresses are typically placed in outgoing ethernet frame headers by the device driver, not by the NIC itself, which is why it changing the MAC address of an interface is usually functionally quite easy. The device driver gets the MAC address to use from an EEPROM or something similar from the card. Bugs in that part of the device driver can cause duplicates. You can generally _assume_ MAC addresses are globally unique, which is why they are used as node IDs in IPv6, IPX, but there aren't any guarantees. Further, global uniqueness of MAC addresses is really only so that the device can be plugged in and work "out of the box". For the network to actually work, the MAC address only has to be unique on the segment it is attached to. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 19:21:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2LkU3023312; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J2Lj71023311; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2LgU3023301 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J2IsV7025990 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J2Im4C011106 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:18:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA938B41C; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:47 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:47 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16C1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNl779E66+BIa7VTcKUDIIMu9Ea+gAB9+9w From: "Bound, Jim" To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 02:18:47.0694 (UTC) FILETIME=[38DF02E0:01C365F8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J2LgU3023302 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does >>the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? > > we could use LLMNR to resolve names to link-local addresses, > or vice versa. i have done it and it works okay. Hmmm. I can see that but need to go reread LLMNR. But so far when I chase it I find a glitch and another failure mode. I even thought if the multihomed node sees a duplicate on a multi segment link it could do something to inform the network but that still does not get around how does the user know? But if LLMNR works we can check it out. As I said I have to go reread. > > under our current implementation, LLMNR daemon talks to >libc resolver > by normal DNS protocol (port 53) so link identifier >will be lost. > however, if we use different inter-process >communication, or integrate > LLMNR into libc, we won't lose link identification (and >we can set > sin6_scope_id right). Yes for that link for sure. But not clear how that helps for multihome multilink? > >>The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the >>IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that >>link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address >>type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be >>included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be >>restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor >>Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other >>operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom >>line is link-local address are not usable for applications. > > I completely agree that link-local address SHOULD NOT >be on public > DNS database. i have already asked the author of > draft-ietf-dnsop-dontpublish-unreachable-03.txt to >include the text, > and it is included. OK I have not read this but will. Thanks /jim > >itojun > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 19:23:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2N4U3023361; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J2N4eK023360; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2N0U3023353 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J2KDV7026280 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J2K8pU007611 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777A99462; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:20:07 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:20:06 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16C2@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNl8LEvmugmIsphQ9aRi6MBdsa9DwAB5BaA From: "Bound, Jim" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 02:20:07.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[6854D270:01C365F8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J2N1U3023354 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >It was my understanding that duplicate MACs are not permitted >by the MAC allocations, which are *supposed* to guarantee that >each physical interface device has a unique MAC. > >Which would imply that a link-local addressed based on a MAC >is in fact globally unique, by definition? > >What have I missed? The rule you state is only per Link. Not multiple links. There is no rule that you cannot duplicate link-locals on separate links only prefixes. /jim > >-- >Andrew White >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 19:31:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2VlU3023816; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J2Vl7T023813; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J2VgU3023802 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J2StUu005284 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J2Sn8R005816 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82F51408E; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26622-01; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DBA13FA4; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:26:42 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, jim.bound@hp.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030818222642.1a62ee64.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0400 "Bound, Jim" wrote: > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. agree emphatically. LL should only be used by special-purpose apps that are aware of LL and its limitations. (and no, LLMNR doesn't solve the problem. LLMNR in its current form is a worse mistake than Site Local.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 20:03:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J339U3024338; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J338jo024337; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J335U3024330 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J30HUu010921 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J30CqB019077 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:14 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.109 by inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:11 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by inet-hub-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:00:03 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E207959F@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications thread-index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wgAD5VIg From: "Brian Zill" To: "Bound, Jim" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 03:00:07.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF022DD0:01C365FD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J335U3024331 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, as long as the application is link-local aware, and treats the scope-id properly, this is not a problem. Most stacks I'm aware of handle this situation correctly. But this means getting the address directly off something on the link, and not through some external lookup mechanism like the global DNS. Link-local addresses are ambiguous off link, and therefore should not (or rather, MUST NOT) appear in the global DNS. For the most part, this limits the use of link-local addresses to applications that are aware of the link. --Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bound, Jim > Sent: Monday, 18 August, 2003 18:01 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: Bound, Jim > Subject: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > Folks, > > Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has > Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. > A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. > All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global > Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the > same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is permitted in IPv6 > for separate links. > > > Host-L1-B Host-L1-C > 3FFE:AB::MAC1 3FFE:AC::MAC2 > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC2 > Link 1 ___|_____________|___________ 3FFE:AD::MAC3 > | FE80::MAC3 > > |--- Host-LX-D0 > > | FE80::MAC6 > > Link 2______________________________| 3FFE:A0::MAC6 > | | > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC5 > 3FFE:AE::MAC1 3FFE:AF::MAC5 > Host-L2-E Host-L2-F > > If Host-LX-D0 user wants to ftp or telnet to Host-L2-E using > FE80::MAC1 as an address 'ftp FE80::MAC1' being a multihomed > host the routing or interface redirection (depending on how > you wanted to implement) really does not know if it is for > Link 1 or Link 2 as both will be in the destination cache > potentially and duplicated, and this would be compliant to > the IPv6 standard. > > But if Host-LX-D0 used Host-L2-E's global address 3FFE:AE::MAC1 > there would be no problem, as IPv6 does not permit duplicate > prefixes across links. > > What some implementations have done is require the user to > specify the interface in addition to the address for link local > (Linux did this as a note) 'ftp FE80::MAC1%Ethernet0' and > other implementations perform a round robin to find the correct > link-local address. The '%' is an artifact of the getaddrinfo() > API as parameter. > > But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does > the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? > What if the user sent the message to the wrong link, especially > in a mission critical situation (e.g. Patient in Hospital, > Telecommunications Grid, Soldiers Device in Combat). This is not > good and also has security issues that can be resolved with IPsec, > but an encrypted packet to the wrong link is still not good as > there is a chance in the diagram above that all Hosts are in fact > using same PKI and IPsec encrypt and decrypt, and the packet > could be accepted. > > IPv6 efforts in the IETF will not solve the future scoping > capabilities within the IPv6 architecture any time soon, and it will > be even longer to get scoping widely implemented in the market > and tested well through interoperability events. The industry > requires a solution today, and I would argue there is no solution. > > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be > restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor > Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other > operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom > line is link-local address are not usable for applications. > > Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think > about this issue? > > This mail will also be sent to the IPv6 Forum deployment effort > and to several users I know of that are deploying IPv6 currently, > to hear from the operational and implementation community too. > > Thanks > /jim > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 20:36:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J3arU3024724; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J3arP0024723; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J3anU3024716 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J3Y2V7010166 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J3Xu8R000424 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7J3Xt9c023489; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:33:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7J3XsNx093065; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:33:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7J3XsYG093062; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: regarding draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02 Message-ID: <20030817151357.W90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob: I have read carefully your Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses internet draft, and here are my reactions: First, as regards IPv6 engineering strategy: the use of non-globally routable, globally unique (or nearly so) PI addresses as proposed in the Local IPv6 addresses ID would alleviate many (but, of course, not quite all) of the difficulties previously identified as arising from use of Site-Local addressing. With the proposed deprecation of Site-Local addressing, a great clamor has arisen for some convention which might provide an improvment over S-L where stable local addressing is required. Your draft seems to define such a convention. While the Local IPv6 addresses proposal does not resolve quite _all_ the issues surrounding address allocations for local environments (more on this below), the current draft nevertheless has much to commend it. In short, I am of the opinion that the mechanisms and practices proposed in INTERNET-DRAFT Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses, or some very similar scheme, should be adopted. Please see below for notes on issues which are likely to continue to fester even after adoption of a scheme such as proposed in the current draft. Now, concerning specific elements of the proposal: Section 3.1 Format The proposals herein are unobjectionable. The suggestion of a /7 space divided into one /8 for local assigns and one /8 for central assigns seems reasonable to me. I am somewhat less sanguine than are you concerning the assumption that the central-assign /8 will never be exhausted, but, as pointed out in the draft, it is possible to augment the space with an additional /7 at some later time if necessary. It might be prudent to ask (or direct) the IANA to reserve another /7 for later use, with the proviso that the additional space will be freed after an agreed length of time if allocation rates prove no higher than expected. After all, the v4 design wallahs didn't think they would exhaust the 32-bit space either. 3.2.1 Centrally Assigned Global IDs I do not see (although I may have overlooked it) any requirement that the allocation authority ensure that a prefix generated in response to a request for a centrally assigned global ID be unique. Since one of the purposes of most central assignment mechanisms is to ensure non-duplication of allocations, it would seem useful to require an allocation authority to enforce uniqueness of assignments which it originates. Although, as pointed out in the text, risk of duplicate assigments is quite low, a simple search of the escrow database or some similar repository of previously assigned values would be, at a minimum, useful; I think it should be required. The imposition of a small, one-time fee for each allocation seems entirely reasonable to me, as does the requirement that allocation requests may be submitted by means other than network facilities, as well as via online access. Although not mentioned (at least to my memory) in the text, good operational practice would militate in favor of an allocation records repository mirrored in at least two widely separated geographic locations, and accessible by wholly independent network paths; however, it is to my mind an open question whether or not we need to specify this level of operational detail in the draft. *.*.* not enumerated above These sections seem entirely unobjectionable, subject to notes below. Additionally, as noted above, the conventions and mechanisms described in the extant draft will not (and, by my reading, do not purport to) resolve all the issues discussed in the IPv6 WG with regard to use of site-local addressing. In my view, additional work, almost all well beyond the scope of said draft, will be required before many of the issues enumerated below are susceptible of resolution. However, the mere fact that the draft is not catholic (note small 'c') in its obviation of problems in no way detracts from the soundness and desirability of the concepts and conventions described in said draft. Specifically, what is proposed in said draft does not: * Drive a stake through the heart of NAT It would appear that the fondest desire of many in the IPv6 WG is to consign NAT to a rapid, and exceeding painful, death. While this may be an admirable goal (for NAT is truly a pernicious beast, and productive of far more trouble than benefit), experience to date seems to show that we will not see the demise of NAT until the designers and admins of user networks have no requirements which can be satisfied by the use of NAT, or have available for each requirement which might be satisfied by a NAT implementation an alternative facility which is functionally markedly superior and administratively much less troublesome than current NAT boxes. However, the provision of globally unique address allocations (if we discount the very low risk of a collision arising from the random prefix generation algorithm) does substantially (perhaps markedly) reduce the number of instances in which NAT implementation is required to handle private implementations which use overlapping address spaces and nevertheless require application-level interoperation for business reasons. This is, ipso facto, a desirable outcome, and IMHO it is not reasonable to expect more of any proposal of the nature of that before us. * Resolve at a single stroke all multihoming issues As pointed out in the text of the draft, unique local unicast addresses may be candidates in some circumstances for use in multihoming implementations. It seems to me most likely that configurations which feature multiple private interconnections between private networks. (NB: for the purposes of this discussion, VPNs, whether operated over pivate links or over the Internet, are considered private interconnections.) The more general cases (specifically, site multihoming and system multihoming over arbitrary transport) are not affected by this set of proposals. Further, I don't know of anything in the multi6 WG which would have direct bearing upon the extant proposal. The availability of stable, unique unicast addressing, even if not globally routable, does enable multihoming over private interconnections using techniques defined by current standards - as far as I can determine, no new protocols or facilities should be required. I see this as sufficient benefit; again, it is not reasonble to expect more of any proposal of the nature of that before us. * Eliminate operational difficulties with DNS and related services regarding destinations which may be reachable only by traffic which originates from a subset of the global set of interfaces or protocol addresses We have recently seen in the IPv6 WG a number of messages suggesting that use of address spaces which are not globally routable and, to some extent, use of scoped addresses, will inevitably give rise to dire consequences in the form of split-face (sometimes called two-face) DNS implementations. Based on experience to date, we are likely to continue to find two-faced DNS implementations as long as we have in user environments addresses which are valid in one or more, but not in _all_, routing contexts. The extant draft does little to alter this situation where v6 is concerned. As pointed out in other messages to the WG, user network administrators, in the absence of permanently stable registered address allocations, are likely to continue to use some form of non-globally-routable space coupled with a set of mechanisms (eg NAT, ALGs, or the like) which enable traffic flow (at least at the application level) from devices on non-routable allocations to devices in globally-routable space. Unless we can persuade user network administrators to use globally-routable addresses for *everything* (see below), split-face DNS implementations may be as persistent and ubiquitous as the common cold. It appears likely, absent a miracle (and I don't have one in my hip pocket this week), that split-face DNS will be a fact of life in the IP world for some time to come. * Obviate all legitimate objections to use of PA addresses in all environments The extant proposal clearly does not address the violent objections voiced by some (in my experience, by many) enterprise network managers to use of PA space throughout enterprise networks. These objections have, at least in summary form, been well aired in the WG; although some WG members have questions the validity of the premises from which the objections are derived, we have not so far succeeded in wishing the objections out of existence. It appears that a fair proportion of small- to medium-size enterprise networks (by my estimate, a majority of those supporting host counts of 30 to about 32,000 interfaces) will continue to object to some of the operational difficulties percieved as arising from exclusive use of PA space in their environments. Unique Local IPv6 Unicast addresses, as proposed in the draft here considered, can, if used in accordance with sound network engineering practice, alleviate some of the more pernicious difficulties perceived by user network administrators. Specifically, these non-globally-routable PI blocks can be used to provide partial immunity of private networks (those which do not require _direct_ access tot he Internet) from forced renumber events triggered by ISP actions or by a change of ISP on the part of the enterprise network administrators. Other benefits, as enumerated in the draft, also obtain. Although, as pointed out immediately above, the Unique Local IPv6 Unicast addresses proposal is not a panacea for all ills of IPv6, it does provide substantial benefit. However, additional work in other areas will be _required_ if we are to have v6 as widely accepted and implemented by the user community as most of us desire. In particular, additional work would be highly desirable (IMO, absoloutely required) on the following matters: * Globally-routable, aggregatable, provider-independent address allocations for use in enterprise and some other types of end-user networks I do not suggest that the use of PA addressing be discontinued; there are substantial numbers of network for which PA blocks are entirely suitable, and for which the PA addressing model may be clearly preferred. However, there is a non-trivial number of networks, as pointed out above, for which the PA model is not well suited; in many of these cases, globally-routable PI space is a superior choice for operational reasons. Granted, this may present scaling problems for extant routing protocols. However, there are a number of aggregation schemes proposed for PI space, some of which seem to have the potential to reduce the prefix count in global routing tables to perhaps managable proportions. Work in this area is not likely to proceed with celerity, much less alacrity. * Renumbering For all v6 networks, a set of tools and techniques is required (IMHO) which will render a renumber event wholly transparent to users and applications (transparent in this context is interpreted as non-service-disrupting with no manual intervention required), and productive of minimal administrative overhead to network engineers, applications administrators, and network managers. Availability of such tools and techniques may encourage some (but clearly not _all_) user network administrators to accept PA allocations, rather than deferring migration to v6 until globally-routable PI space is available, or remaining on v4 'till the proverbial cows come home. We aren't there yet, but there may eventually achieve these goals. My bet it that it will take a while. * Multihoming The multi6 WG has been wrestling with the technical issues for some time now. It seems to me that many of the more intractable issues arise directly from the route aggregation requirements imposed by the current address allocation model, and contents of the multi6 drafts I have read seem to bear this out, as almost every mechanism and protocol proposed has an exclusion clause for large enterprise networks which acquire their own globally-routable (PI) prefixes. * DNS, DHCP, and autoconfig The outstanding issues in these areas have been mentioned in any number of posts to the ipv6 WG; it's not necessary to amplify on what has already been said. OK, now a summary: IMO, draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02, while not a panacea for all IPv6 ills, is a sound work which presents a format of local IPv6 addresses which, if implemented in accordance with sound network engineering practice, can be of substantial benefit to end-user networks. The proposals in said draft provide interim relief for several problems identified as being of particular and marked concern to adminstrators of end-user networks in enterprise and some other environments. I am in favor of further work on this proposal, with a view to eventual adoption of this, or similar, facilities. Additionally, this WG, in conjunction with others, should countine to work on other logically distinct issues enumerated above. That's my $.02 worth. AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 18 22:18:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J5ICU3025255; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J5IBOr025254; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J5I8U3025247 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J5FLV7026823 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ursa.amorsen.dk (x1-6-00-e0-28-13-bf-45.k32.webspeed.dk [195.41.138.12]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J5FApU010513 for ; Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vega.amorsen.dk (vega.amorsen.dk [172.31.4.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ursa.amorsen.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A9B1C15C; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:15:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications From: Benny Amorsen To: Mark Smith Cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030819114412.21e77025.ipv6@nosense.org> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> <20030819114412.21e77025.ipv6@nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1061270104.28885.5.camel@vega.amorsen.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 (1.4.4-3) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:15:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On 2003-08-19 at 04:14, Mark Smith wrote: > a) MAC addresses are reasonably easily to change. You can't guarantee > that the end-users will follow the recommendations ie. enable the > locally administered bit. Most networking people I've met don't know > there is a "locally administered" bit in a MAC address. > > b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique > MAC addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have > apparently tended to happen within the same batch of NICs, and have > been encountered when somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new > NICs they have just bought, and encounter one or more duplications. > > c) MAC addresses are typically placed in outgoing ethernet frame > headers by the device driver, not by the NIC itself, which is why it > changing the MAC address of an interface is usually functionally quite > easy. The device driver gets the MAC address to use from an EEPROM or > something similar from the card. Bugs in that part of the device > driver can cause duplicates. You are forgetting: d) Some manufacturers allocate only one MAC address per host, with the expectation that two interfaces would never end up on the same network. Sun was the canonical example, but you can turn that behaviour off in the PROM. I do not know how modern Sun machines behave. /Benny -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 01:10:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J8AsU3025845; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J8AsJ2025844; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J8AoU3025837 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J881Uu005872 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J87tpU023488 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.jinmei.org (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [3ffe:501:100f::35]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F44C1525D; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:07:51 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:07:51 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.10.0 (Venus) Emacs/21.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.5 - "Awara-Onsen") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0400, >>>>> "Bound, Jim" said: > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation > That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > included in the DNS. I agree with this. Regarding the rest of the statements, my opinion depends on the details: > that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. > That link-local adddresses SHOULD be > restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor > Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other > operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom > line is link-local address are not usable for applications. First of all, we need to define "applications" clearly. I believe all existing IPv6 routing protocol and DHCPv6 implementations are user-space "applications." Also, some IPv6 stack implements (all or some part of) Neighbor Discovery as a user-space "application." So, it is not really clear if we just say "link-local addresses are not usable for *applications*." Additionally, with the fact some fundamental protocols such as routing/ND/DHCPv6 use link-local addresses, network administrators need a tool to deal with the addresses. For example, they sometimes need to ping to a link-local address to see if a remote router showed in the routing table of another router is alive. As an IPv6 network operator, I sometimes even need to log in to an on-link node by ssh using a link-local address, when a routing or ND trouble happens. I can easily imagine that some people dislike this kind of usage, but this is a real IPv6 life I'm spending today anyway, and ping and ssh are of course applications. I personally think it is reasonable to assume that such administrators (or more generally "advanced" users) have the ability to disambiguate the correct link when they use such tools (applications). (Router administrators have to understand the notion of links after all.) Also, ping and ssh that I'm using, or more concretely, ping6 and OpenSSH_3.5p1 on FreeBSD 4.8, do not really care about "links." These applications just use the getaddrinfo function provided by FreeBSD 4.8, and the library function understands the "%" notation to tell the correct link to the kernel. (Note: the reasy why these applications use getaddrinfo() is not because they need to deal with link-local addresses. They use the function to support IPv6.) I agree that ordinary users that do not have the knowledge about "links" should not be bothered with the link-local stuff. I also agree that it is not meaningful to forth applications something (API, whatever) just to deal with link-local addresses. (But I'm not sure if this is something that the IETF should declare with the upper-cased wording.) At the same time, however, I believe it is convenient or even necessary for "advanced" users (such as network operators) to have the ability to use link-local addresses even with an "ordinary" applications such as ping or ssh. I also believe it is useful to define the common syntax and the library support (e.g., the % notation support in getaddrinfo()) to provide the ability. I also have some personal opinions on the LLMNR or zeroconf usage wrt link-local addresses, but I won't go further on this for now. I believe my main points should be covered by what I've said above, and I'm afraid discussing the zeroconf usage in this context would make this thread divergent without contributing to the essential point here. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 02:51:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J9pvU3026389; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7J9pvtp026388; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7J9prU3026381 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7J9n5V7022300 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7J9mx8R025955 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7J9bAj9006477 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:37:12 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Subject: draft-cpatel-ipv6-automated-policy-table-cfg-00.txt Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:21:42 +0530 Message-ID: <00fe01c36637$83a292d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7J9psU3026382 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello, I have submitted a new draft that specifies a procedure to automate the updates to the policy table used in hosts for auto configuration. The draft is available at http://www.chirayu.org/I-D/draft-cpatel-ipv6-automated-policy-table-cfg-00.t xt The abstract of the draft gives more details about the benefits of the procedure. ---- This document proposes a method to manage the address selection policy tables in network hosts using RA's (Router Advertisements). The aim is to provide an easy method to network operators to control the src/dest address used by the host in communication within, and outside of the site(s) in which the host resides. Control of the policy tables allows 1) the user to control the scope in which a host may operate, and 2) non-disruption of intra-site traffic during renumbering caused by change in the global prefix used by the site to connect to the Internet. A major impact of the last benefit would be to provide one less incentive to advertise routes to the stable network prefixes in the Internet. ---- I would like to hear what the WG thinks about it. CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 03:28:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JASmU3026724; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JASm3f026723; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JASiU3026716 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JAPtUu005874 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JAPn8R017272 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7JADVj9006567; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:13:53 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Bound, Jim'" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:58:03 +0530 Message-ID: <00ff01c3663c$a468ac20$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7JASjU3026717 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner- > ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bound, Jim > > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be > restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor > Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other > operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom > line is link-local address are not usable for applications. > > Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think > about this issue? Networks can be formed ad-hoc. I meet two friends, and all three of us want to use our laptops to play a networking game, or maybe exchange files. In the absence of a router (for RA) or a DHCPv6 server, we all will be forced to use link-local addresses. It might not be that difficult to use the link-local addresses, if there were a "network neighborhood" kind of application existed which would detect all the nodes on the network, maybe even gets their name using NI queries, and somehow pass (maybe /etc/hosts) the hostnames to the applications. Convenience will any day override IETF statements. We might be better off if we develop an API through which the kernel can inform the applications about an ambiguous address. A call to connect() could return EAMBIGUOUS. Ofcourse, this error will only happen if the user did not specify the scope. Comments? CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 05:24:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCOjU3027334; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JCOjII027333; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCOfU3027326 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JCLpV7007091 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hexagon.stack.nl (hexagon.stack.nl [131.155.140.144]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JCL34C027787 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:21:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dragon.stack.nl (dragon.stack.nl [2001:610:1108:5011:207:e9ff:fe09:230]) by hexagon.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE851C74; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dragon.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1600) id DD1E55F187; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:21:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:21:02 +0200 From: Dean Strik To: Benny Amorsen Cc: Mark Smith , awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-ID: <20030819122102.GC779@dragon.stack.nl> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> <20030819114412.21e77025.ipv6@nosense.org> <1061270104.28885.5.camel@vega.amorsen.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1061270104.28885.5.camel@vega.amorsen.dk> X-Editor: VIM Rulez! http://www.vim.org/ X-MUD: Outerspace - telnet://mud.stack.nl:3333 X-Really: Yes User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Benny Amorsen wrote: > On 2003-08-19 at 04:14, Mark Smith wrote: > > > a) MAC addresses are reasonably easily to change. You can't guarantee > > b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique > > MAC addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have > > c) MAC addresses are typically placed in outgoing ethernet frame > > headers by the device driver, not by the NIC itself, which is why it > You are forgetting: > d) Some manufacturers allocate only one MAC address per host, with the > expectation that two interfaces would never end up on the same network. > Sun was the canonical example, but you can turn that behaviour off in > the PROM. I do not know how modern Sun machines behave. e) Things like 802.1Q tagged vlans that providee multiple logical interfaces with their own link-local address space yet the same MAC addresses. -- Dean C. Strik Eindhoven University of Technology dean@stack.nl | dean@ipnet6.org | http://www.ipnet6.org/ "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 05:46:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCkIU3027681; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JCkIZD027680; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCkEU3027673 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JChPV7014554 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.eng.emc.com (mercury.lss.emc.com [168.159.100.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JChJ8R012176 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mercury.lss.emc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:43:09 -0400 Message-ID: <33CE6457C7003A478381BCD0B584DEC5027411D1@srmoon.eng.emc.com> From: "sasson, shuki" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:43:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Jim, I fully agree with the conclusion that link-local shouldn't be used for other than Neighbor Discovery. The only exception may be home networking where a router is not present (but I doubt that even one such network exists). We came across the same problem (our product is a multi-home host). This is how we tackled the scenario you are presenting: There are 2 cases here it is either that the multi-home is the initiator of the transaction or receiving a request. If it is receiving a request then the socket going up to the application will include the scope-id. Applications should maintain the socket structure as a handle for this transaction thus they actually are having a pointer to the interface throughout the packet came through. While responding to the packet using this handle will automatically send the packet through the right interface. The second case is when the multi-home host is the initiator. In our system we discourage the human user from setting up Link-Local address as destination addresses for such transactions. If she (the user) insists on using Link-Local then this should be specified in the form FE80::LL%interface-name. This way the multi-home host wouldn't have to go and guess on what interface the LL destination address resides. We found the above approach to be the simplest one and one that will always work. Another important note:: A question rises what should be done in the case of VLANs where a single interface can support multiple VLANs. Answer:: Each VLAN should have its own scope-id and interface name. Hope this helps, Shuki -----Original Message----- From: Bound, Jim [mailto:jim.bound@hp.com] Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:01 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: Bound, Jim Subject: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Folks, Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is permitted in IPv6 for separate links. Host-L1-B Host-L1-C 3FFE:AB::MAC1 3FFE:AC::MAC2 FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC2 Link 1 ___|_____________|___________ 3FFE:AD::MAC3 | FE80::MAC3 |--- Host-LX-D0 | FE80::MAC6 Link 2______________________________| 3FFE:A0::MAC6 | | FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC5 3FFE:AE::MAC1 3FFE:AF::MAC5 Host-L2-E Host-L2-F If Host-LX-D0 user wants to ftp or telnet to Host-L2-E using FE80::MAC1 as an address 'ftp FE80::MAC1' being a multihomed host the routing or interface redirection (depending on how you wanted to implement) really does not know if it is for Link 1 or Link 2 as both will be in the destination cache potentially and duplicated, and this would be compliant to the IPv6 standard. But if Host-LX-D0 used Host-L2-E's global address 3FFE:AE::MAC1 there would be no problem, as IPv6 does not permit duplicate prefixes across links. What some implementations have done is require the user to specify the interface in addition to the address for link local (Linux did this as a note) 'ftp FE80::MAC1%Ethernet0' and other implementations perform a round robin to find the correct link-local address. The '%' is an artifact of the getaddrinfo() API as parameter. But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? What if the user sent the message to the wrong link, especially in a mission critical situation (e.g. Patient in Hospital, Telecommunications Grid, Soldiers Device in Combat). This is not good and also has security issues that can be resolved with IPsec, but an encrypted packet to the wrong link is still not good as there is a chance in the diagram above that all Hosts are in fact using same PKI and IPsec encrypt and decrypt, and the packet could be accepted. IPv6 efforts in the IETF will not solve the future scoping capabilities within the IPv6 architecture any time soon, and it will be even longer to get scoping widely implemented in the market and tested well through interoperability events. The industry requires a solution today, and I would argue there is no solution. The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom line is link-local address are not usable for applications. Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think about this issue? This mail will also be sent to the IPv6 Forum deployment effort and to several users I know of that are deploying IPv6 currently, to hear from the operational and implementation community too. Thanks /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 05:51:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCp0U3027753; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JCoxSY027752; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JCotU3027745 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JCm6V7015910 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JClP4C021858 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF6E13FAA; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02827-02; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F59B13FA5; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:45:50 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Chirayu Patel" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-cpatel-ipv6-automated-policy-table-cfg-00.txt Message-Id: <20030819084550.1f98375b.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00fe01c36637$83a292d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> References: <00fe01c36637$83a292d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:21:42 +0530 "Chirayu Patel" wrote: > I would like to hear what the WG thinks about it. I think it's completely unacceptable to expect applications to deal with multiple addressing scopes, whether or not there is any indication from the network regarding "policy". I also think that it's unreasonable for the network to dictate such policy, since different apps on the same network will have different needs. I also think it's unreasonable for the network to expect/demand that apps will select a locally-scoped address over one that is globally scoped - if nothing else this breaks backward compatibility. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 07:08:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JE8DU3029109; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JE8DoL029108; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bebop.France.Sun.COM (bebop.France.Sun.COM [129.157.174.15]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JE88U3029101 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lillen (lillen [129.157.212.23]) by bebop.France.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id h7JE5FQ09470; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:05:15 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:02:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Erik Nordmark Reply-To: Erik Nordmark Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] To: Bob Hinden Cc: Ralph Droms , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: "Your message with ID" <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > It's from my reading of the discussion (on the mailing list and in the > meetings) and the fact that the working group decided to accept > as a working group document in > Vienna. I didn't know there were such side effects associated with accepting that as a WG document. My assumption was that it was a fine thing to work on possible replacements and to understand the cost/benefit tradeoffs of such replacements. But presumably the WG should be capable to still say "we don't like any of them". Your logic seems to preclude such a conclusion. FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will make the local addressing concerns go away. Erik -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 07:59:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JExwU3029576; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JExwd5029575; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JExtU3029568 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JEv5V7003597 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JEux8R016315 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7JEucpC001443; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:56:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:56:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Michel Py" , "Michael Thomas" , To: "Bound, Jim" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D169F@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Message-Id: <55D0F982-D255-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, On tisdag, aug 19, 2003, at 02:56 Europe/Stockholm, Bound, Jim wrote: >> IPv6 IS IPv4 with more bits. > > On the contrary it is much more if you go down behind the user and look > at the protocol and implementation. It depends on ones view. I am > debating this with Geoff now on his Myth article and there will another > article soon. In that sense you are probably right. But for the end-user, network manager or the Carrier financial department, it's just more bits. There are a number of ways that we have changed HOW things are done, but it's still the same things. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 08:17:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JFHaU3029791; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JFHatI029790; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JFHWU3029783 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JFEgV7010933 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JFEa96004241 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:14:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7JFF0Bu009860; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:15:01 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7JFEwG6009859; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:14:58 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications From: Mika Liljeberg To: itojun@iijlab.net Cc: "Bound, Jim" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030819011516.B01CA96@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20030819011516.B01CA96@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061306097.999.16.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 19 Aug 2003 18:14:57 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 2003-08-19 at 04:15, itojun@iijlab.net wrote: > >But this does not really solve the problem completely. How does > >the user know which Link to use for the link-local address? > > we could use LLMNR to resolve names to link-local addresses, > or vice versa. i have done it and it works okay. > > under our current implementation, LLMNR daemon talks to libc resolver > by normal DNS protocol (port 53) so link identifier will be lost. > however, if we use different inter-process communication, or integrate > LLMNR into libc, we won't lose link identification (and we can set > sin6_scope_id right). Indeed. We have done it this way and it works quite nicely. The resolver API returns any scoped addresses together with an appropriate scope id. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 09:04:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JG4kU3000436; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JG4jSP000435; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JG4gU3000428 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JG1qUu012261 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JG1lfg021499 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:01:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2003 18:01:06 +0200 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7JFxDfN013246; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:59:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from xfe-ams-312.cisco.com ([144.254.228.205]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:01:39 +0200 Received: from cisco.com ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:01:38 +0200 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:01:36 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Bound, Jim" , "Michel Py" , "Michael Thomas" , To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <55D0F982-D255-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Message-Id: <6925FE8E-D25E-11D7-A05D-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 16:01:38.0670 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C4418E0:01C3666B] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On tisdag, aug 19, 2003, at 16:56 Europe/Stockholm, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > On tisdag, aug 19, 2003, at 02:56 Europe/Stockholm, Bound, Jim wrote: > >>> IPv6 IS IPv4 with more bits. >> >> On the contrary it is much more if you go down behind the user and >> look >> at the protocol and implementation. It depends on ones view. I am >> debating this with Geoff now on his Myth article and there will >> another >> article soon. > > In that sense you are probably right. But for the end-user, network > manager or the Carrier financial department, it's just more bits. > There are a number of ways that we have changed HOW things are done, > but it's still the same things. And, I think this is a _positive_ thing which actually helps IPv6 getting deployed. People not knowing much about Internet doesn't have to buy another $1k/day training just because they have to enter other "things" in their computers. The more it is for the end-user and basic administrator (and application) "just more bits", the better. paf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 10:01:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JH1GU3001094; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JH1GlL001093; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JH1CU3001086 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JGwNUu009584 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JGwG8R005212 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7JGvq9c024824; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7JGvqNx094121; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7JGvquv094118; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:57:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Erik Nordmark cc: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030819114130.R90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Erik: I'm going to poke my nose into this thread in hope of alleviating some possible misapprehension concerning interpretation of the original "fourth alternative" text. Please see below for comments. On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Erik Nordmark wrote: > > > > It's from my reading of the discussion (on the mailing list and in the > > meetings) and the fact that the working group decided to accept > > as a working group document in > > Vienna. > > I didn't know there were such side effects associated with accepting that > as a WG document. > My assumption was that it was a fine thing to work on possible replacements > and to understand the cost/benefit tradeoffs of such replacements. > > But presumably the WG should be capable to still say "we don't like any of > them". > Your logic seems to preclude such a conclusion. > >From a review of previous messages in this thread, the text which seems to have trigged the above is: >Furthermore, based on the record of the question from the minutes of the SF >meeting and the question put to the ipng mailing list, how was this >conclusion arrived at: > >>A fourth alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, >>but I think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >>reasonable alternative. As I interpret Bob's text cited at the head of this note, the citing of the decision to accept as a WG document is evidence in support of the assertion that the fourth alternative (specifically, to decline to replace site locals in any form) has not found any credible level of support in the list. As I interpret the history, and based on my memory of the tenor of disussions at Vienna (yes, I snuck in), the decision to accept said draft as a WG document was a direct result of the WG collective opinion that one or more alternatives to SL are clearly necessary, and that offers at least the potential of a workable alternative. Based on this sequence and history, the decision to accept the Hinden draft was a consequence, rather than the origin, of the disapprobation of the suggestion to deprecate Site-Locals without pursuing work on suitable replacements for local addressing allocations. As I remember the discussions, it is not Bob's logic, but rather the collective logic of the group as demonstrated in the WG decision (expressed as a show of hands), which precludes the conclusion that SL may or should be deprecated without some provision for work on viable alternatives. Notwithstanding the very strong IETF tradition of stare decisis, it is possible (although not, IMO, likely) that after discussion we will conclude that we cannot find a workable alternative. Should we reach this eventuality, we will have, if deprecation of SL proceeds before viable alternatives are codified, exactly the condition postulated in the fourth alternative; but that is, as I read the history, clearly _not_ the intended outcome. (If anyone is brave enough to attempt a diagram of that last sentence, I'd love to see the result. ;-( ) > FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will make the > local addressing concerns go away. > While a multi6 solution such as you suggest above would undoubtedly obviate one set of requirements which drive demand for local addressing, other requirement sets now extant will not be obviated thereby; the demand for local addressing will persist until _all_ requirement sets which drive that demand are satisfied by other solutions. Some of these requirement sets (such as address stability and address portability for enterprise networks across ISP changes) are perhaps less amenable to engineered solutions than are the multihoming issues. I devoutly wish that the issue of local addressing were so straightforward that a single solution would resolve the issue entirely; sadly, that does not appear to be the case, based discussions in this WG. Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 10:26:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHQTU3001452; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JHQSR8001451; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHQPU3001444 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:25 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMwEAAFhDMDAxODE1ZAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACqAQAAWEMwMDE4MTVk --_NextPart_000_00EBF13A-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 10:26:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHQlU3001473; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JHQlOU001472; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHQhU3001465 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JHNsV7024758 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (dhcp1.se.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JHKhEd024697 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7JHKNpC001529; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:20:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:20:22 +0200 Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Bound, Jim" , "Michel Py" , "Michael Thomas" , To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <6925FE8E-D25E-11D7-A05D-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Message-Id: <69FAF8B4-D269-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>>> IPv6 IS IPv4 with more bits. >>> >>> On the contrary it is much more if you go down behind the user and >>> look >>> at the protocol and implementation. It depends on ones view. I am >>> debating this with Geoff now on his Myth article and there will >>> another >>> article soon. >> >> In that sense you are probably right. But for the end-user, network >> manager or the Carrier financial department, it's just more bits. >> There are a number of ways that we have changed HOW things are done, >> but it's still the same things. > > And, I think this is a _positive_ thing which actually helps IPv6 > getting deployed. People not knowing much about Internet doesn't have > to buy another $1k/day training just because they have to enter other > "things" in their computers. Yes, I don't think I was clear on that. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 10:30:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHUIU3001565; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JHUIgB001564; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JHUEU3001554 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JHROV7026718 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JHRHpU022915 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.149]) by mail4.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:21 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by inet-vrs-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:15 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:27:09 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795A2@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications thread-index: AcNmPbDvYmCnotMhSL6yp3O/VeHYoQANPfsw From: "Brian Zill" To: "Chirayu Patel" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Aug 2003 17:27:16.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[226C4C50:01C36677] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7JHUEU3001555 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Convenience will any day override IETF statements. > We might be better off if we develop an API through > which the kernel can inform the applications about > an ambiguous address. A call to connect() could > return EAMBIGUOUS. Ofcourse, this error will only > happen if the user did not specify the scope. The scope-id field in the sockaddr_in6 is there so that applications can inform the kernel of the scope of potentially ambiguous addresses. At least our implementation (and presumably most others) will not accept a scoped address in a sockaddr_in6 structure without a properly set scope-id field. I really think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. Most apps that use getaddrinfo will naturally support link-local literal addresses, if the user bothers to type one in. I suspect mostly only administrators and the network savvy will ever use literal addresses, ordinary users will use DNS names. Link-local addresses won't work in the DNS, so no one using DNS names will ever get one. If someone comes up with a way for ad-hoc applications to present an understandable UI to ordinary users that happens to use link-local addresses underneath, well, more power to them. This is really outside of the IETF's purview (as actually, is the whole IPv6 API; RFC 2553 and friends are informational, not standards). Basically, I agree with Jinmei's points on this issue, so I'll just say that instead of repeating them. --Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 16:05:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JN5fU3004682; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JN5f4Q004681; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JN5bU3004674 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JN2mV7007489 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JN2gwW021271 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7JN2bc25219; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:02:37 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308192302> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdA415mW; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:02:35 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819154847.02b32ce0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:01:06 -0700 To: Mark Smith From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030819114412.21e77025.ipv6@nosense.org> References: <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3F417AAD.6FF3116D@motorola.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark, >b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique MAC >addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have apparently tended >to happen within the same batch of NICs, and have been encountered when >somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new NICs they have just bought, >and encounter one or more duplications. Do you have any first hand experience of this happening? I have heard the story several times, but I would like to see something definitive. I wonder if it is an "internet urban myth". Does anyone have in their possession two or more NICs with the same MAC address? Thanks, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 16:29:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNThU3005107; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JNThE1005106; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNTeU3005099 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JNQoV7020953 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JNQgwW011174 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7JNQNI20117; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:26:23 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308192326> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdtnGn2T; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:26:20 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819160219.02b33668@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:23:29 -0700 To: Erik Nordmark From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: <"Your message with ID" <4.3.2.7.2.20030804210823.0317eaf8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Erik, At 07:02 AM 8/19/2003, Erik Nordmark wrote: >I didn't know there were such side effects associated with accepting that >as a WG document. >My assumption was that it was a fine thing to work on possible replacements >and to understand the cost/benefit tradeoffs of such replacements. > >But presumably the WG should be capable to still say "we don't like any of >them". >Your logic seems to preclude such a conclusion. I don't think it precludes such a conclusion in the future as any solution will need to go through normal IETF processes to advance. But I do think it represented a reasonable conclusion at the time based on the Vienna IETF sessions and subsequent discussion. >FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will make the >local addressing concerns go away. Also FWIW, I think opinions differ on this topic and we will know more when there is a specified solution so it's benefits and weaknesses can be evaluated. I note that people have been talking about for almost as long as IPv6 has been around. However, I think it would be unwise for the working group to defer what we can do now in this area to wait for this to happen. When or if it happens, it's benefits will encourage everyone to adopt it quickly. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 16:34:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNYlU3005182; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JNYkwi005181; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNYhU3005174 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JNVsV7023538 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JNVj6X028757 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:31:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7JNVNu25578; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:31:23 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308192331> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd27F4dY; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:31:20 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819162605.02b32ce0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:29:51 -0700 To: Patrik =?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Cc: In-Reply-To: <6925FE8E-D25E-11D7-A05D-000A959CF516@cisco.com> References: <55D0F982-D255-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Patrik, >The more it is for the end-user and basic administrator (and application) >"just more bits", the better. YES! From the users perspective, the only difference should be that they get to run new cool applications that were not available to them previously (due to IPv4's limitations, NATs, etc.). Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 16:51:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNpVU3005674; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7JNpUfM005673; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7JNpRU3005666 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7JNmcUu025980 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7JNmWfU022099 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7JNmR9c025467; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:48:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7JNmRNx094527; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:48:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7JNmQa0094524; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:48:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Bob Hinden cc: Mark Smith , Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819154847.02b32ce0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: <20030819192715.T90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob: I have encountered duplicate MAC addresses on ethernet NICs on two occasions: once from Novell and once from IBM. These incidents were widely spaced in time: the first approximately ten years ago; the second about four years ago. In each case, the problem was uncovered during a mass deployment of new systems when one machine proved unreliable during post-install testing. In both cases, the problem was initially mis-diagnosed as a switch CAM table logic failure. In one case we found only one duplicated value (two cards each with the same MAC address); in the other case we found that the manufacturer had duplicated 16 MAC addresses, and we got 22 cards with duplicated addresses. (We never did determine what became of the remaining four cards with duplicate addresses, although we found 15 of the 16 duplicated addresses in our stock.) In each case the manufacturer replaced _all_ the cards out of the affected production runs with new units, and required that all the cards we had out of the afficted production run be returned to the maker. This is not an urban legend, but, based on my experience, manufacturers tend to react vigorously and very rapidly indeed to remove from public circulation _all_ cards bearing MAC addresses which may have been duplicated. BTW, the networks in which these duplications were discovered are fairly large; one about 32K hosts, the other about 8K. I would judge instances of duplicated MAC addresses to be quite rare. Hope this helps. AEB On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Bob Hinden wrote: > Mark, > > >b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique MAC > >addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have apparently tended > >to happen within the same batch of NICs, and have been encountered when > >somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new NICs they have just bought, > >and encounter one or more duplications. > > Do you have any first hand experience of this happening? I have heard the > story several times, but I would like to see something definitive. I > wonder if it is an "internet urban myth". > > Does anyone have in their possession two or more NICs with the same MAC > address? > > Thanks, > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 17:45:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0jcU3006301; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K0jcrZ006300; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0jZU3006293 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K0gjUu022887 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K0gdfU000501 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:42:42 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:41:30 -0700 Message-ID: <011901c366b3$cca991f0$27a16b80@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bound, Jim wrote: > ... > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. Jim, this is simply pointless. I haven't gotten through all the mail yet so somebody has probably already pointed this out, but you can't use an ad-hoc network without routers if the apps won't bind to a LL address. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 17:48:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0m5U3006351; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K0m5Te006350; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0m1U3006342 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K0jCV7002348 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K0j6wW013310 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:05 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNmpyrvW4QoRnJjQnGzXLk4Ry86aAAC2smg From: "Michel Py" To: "Bob Hinden" , "Mark Smith" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7K0m2U3006343 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Do you have any first hand experience of this happening? > I have heard the story several times, but I would like > to see something definitive. I have seen it 10+ years ago with a batch of NE2000 clones. They were perfect copies of the Novell model (including the logo) but they all had the same MAC address. For what I remember they were made by a large scale copy facility in HK and the guys there had never done a serialized card before, so they all came out the same. > Does anyone have in their possession two or more NICs > with the same MAC address? I have stopped using 16-bit ISA cards a while ago. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 17:59:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0xsU3006704; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K0xrT4006703; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K0xoU3006696 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K0v1Uu029375 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K0utfU010550 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:56:59 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Kurt Erik Lindqvist'" , "'Bound, Jim'" Cc: "'Michel Py'" , "'Michael Thomas'" , Subject: RE: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:55:46 -0700 Message-ID: <012b01c366b5$cb6455d0$27a16b80@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <55D0F982-D255-11D7-A889-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > ... There > are a number of ways that we have changed HOW things are > done, but it's > still the same things. That statement exposes the problem here. Some people want to make sure that IPv6 does *exactly* the same things that IPv4 does, while others want IPv6 to do more. Doing them differently is not the issue. It comes down to accepting that it is ok for some to use IPv6 as IPv4 with more bits while somebody else does more. Unfortunately there are obstructionists that want to make sure everyone does exactly the same thing, and no more than they could do with IPv4. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 18:08:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K18DU3007006; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K18CPW007005; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K189U3006994 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K15JV7012050 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-224.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.224]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K15EfU014841 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:05:18 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Erik Nordmark'" , "'Bob Hinden'" Cc: "'Ralph Droms'" , Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:04:05 -0700 Message-ID: <012d01c366b6$f41b80b0$27a16b80@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7K189U3006996 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Erik Nordmark wrote: > ... > FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will > make the local addressing concerns go away. Well a 'solution' might do that, but I don't see one happening in our lifetimes. Any separation will require a mapping infrastructure to dynamically bind the values back together. Such a mapping infrastructure will have all of the scaling concerns of DNS, plus the constraint that its convergence times are extremely short. There is no well-known technology for running a global multi-master, cross trust boundary, database, with appropriate caching for scale, and convergence times that are useful for application failover. If one exists, maybe the end system stacks can be rebuilt to use it within a decade ... Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 22:04:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K542U3008733; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K542gw008732; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K53wU3008725 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K518V7020967 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K4vlYD018448 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:57:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7K4uBU05676; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:56:15 +0200 Message-ID: <3F42FF6A.5050109@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:56:10 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Kurt Erik Lindqvist'" , "'Bound, Jim'" , "'Michel Py'" , "'Michael Thomas'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing References: <012b01c366b5$cb6455d0$27a16b80@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <012b01c366b5$cb6455d0$27a16b80@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > >somebody else does more. Unfortunately there are obstructionists that want >to make sure everyone does exactly the same thing, and no more than they >could do with IPv4. > > > "getting everybody to do the same thing" ... that sounds awfully close to a standard to me! Horrible! Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 22:09:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K59VU3008789; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K59U4G008788; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K59RU3008781 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K56cV7023354 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K56LwW015340 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 29C453F048; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:36:25 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:36:24 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Alan E. Beard" Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030820143624.5c8f7328.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20030819192715.T90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819154847.02b32ce0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030819192715.T90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, Alan, My reply to Bob's question at end. On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:48:26 -0400 (EDT) "Alan E. Beard" wrote: > Bob: > > > This is not an urban legend, but, based on my experience, manufacturers > tend to react vigorously and very rapidly indeed to remove from public > circulation _all_ cards bearing MAC addresses which may have been > duplicated. > The story I'd heard was the problem most often occured at the bottom end of the NIC market, rather than the top ie. the el-cheapo cards manufactured in Taiwan etc. The two reasons were 1) The NIC manufacturer couldn't be bothered with getting an official OUI from IEEE, due to the costs involved cutting into their profit margin (although I'd assumed it cost money to get an OUI, if it doesn't, then that isn't a reason - being lazy does minimise your costs in a small way though). 2) QA was low, again due to it cutting into profit margins. This may actually be a business strategy as 1) the el-cheapo market would typically be the SOHO market, where very few NICs are connected to the same link, and are typically bought one at a time. 2) if the SOHO customer does buy more than one NIC from a batch with duplicate MAC addresses, they won't work, will take one or both, or the group back to the shop, and get replacements, hopefully not from the same batch. Alternatively, because of the hassle they have just suffered, they may decide to go a bit more up market, where MACs are not duplicated. Because of the low cost, the shop will probably just assume the el-cheapo NICs were DOA, and throw them away. With cheap, yet widely supported (eg Windows, Linux, etc) 10/100 MBps NICs costing around $15 AU / ~$8 US, it isn't surprising that people may not bother trying to find the real reason why NICs with duplicated MAC addresses don't work. > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Bob Hinden wrote: > > > Mark, > > > > >b) There have been cases where manufacturers have allocated non-unique MAC > > >addresses. What is worse is that these duplications have apparently tended > > >to happen within the same batch of NICs, and have been encountered when > > >somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new NICs they have just bought, > > >and encounter one or more duplications. > > > > Do you have any first hand experience of this happening? I have heard the > > story several times, but I would like to see something definitive. I > > wonder if it is an "internet urban myth". > > No :-), but I seem to remember that the person who told me about 10 years ago did. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 22:25:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K5PqU3009051; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K5PqFq009050; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K5PnU3009043 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K5N0Uu014160 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K5Msw7026854 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:22:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6p2/8.11.2) id h7K5MkI05196; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:22:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200308200522.h7K5MkI05196@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications In-Reply-To: <20030820143624.5c8f7328.ipv6@nosense.org> from Mark Smith at "Aug 20, 3 02:36:24 pm" To: ipv6@nosense.org (Mark Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: aeb1@aebeard.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk % > > >somebody goes to deploy a group of say 20 new NICs they have just bought, % > > >and encounter one or more duplications. % > > % > > Do you have any first hand experience of this happening? I have heard the % > > story several times, but I would like to see something definitive. I % > > wonder if it is an "internet urban myth". % > > % % No :-), but I seem to remember that the person who told me about 10 years ago did. % % Regards, % Mark. 3com - 3c501 cards circa 1987 DEC - circa 1985 (although DECnet rewrote the MAC by default) generic - circa 1996 in the first two cases, the vendor had tools to re-write the mac inthe latter case, get the money back and buy better cards. --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 19 22:25:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K5PwU3009061; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7K5Pwwg009060; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7K5PrU3009052 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7K5N3Uu014170 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K5MuVU000872 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (43.cust5.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.232.43]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A67DB3F048; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:52:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:52:55 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Alan E. Beard" Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030820145255.2ca36db2.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20030819192715.T90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030819154847.02b32ce0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030819192715.T90645-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Did a bit of googling, looks like Intel has had a duplicate MAC address problem as recently as January last year : http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/stl2/ta-503.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 16:37:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7KNbTU3015871; 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Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:31:59 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: test2 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F4404EF.1020904@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk test2 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:00:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L00iU3016181; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L00huJ016180; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L00dU3016173 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7KNvoUu011472 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7KNviDV001752 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567621407B; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02578-05; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1C21407F; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:56:05 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Erik.Nordmark@Sun.COM, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Message-Id: <20030820195605.584bd48e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <012d01c366b6$f41b80b0$27a16b80@eagleswings> References: <012d01c366b6$f41b80b0$27a16b80@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:04:05 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Erik Nordmark wrote: > > ... > > FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will > > make the local addressing concerns go away. > > Well a 'solution' might do that, but I don't see one happening in our > lifetimes. Any separation will require a mapping infrastructure to > dynamically bind the values back together. agreed. > Such a mapping infrastructure > will have all of the scaling concerns of DNS, Not clear. Nothing says that the mapping service has to be organized like DNS. It is not inherently necessary (though quite possibly desirable) that assignment of stable IDs be federated similarly to the way address blocks are federated, so that the service can do mapping on a per-block basis rather than a per-address basis. However, there is no inherent reason that the servers that provide the mapping have to be provided by the assignees of those ID blocks. Nor is there any inherent reason that propagation of updates has to be like DNS. > plus the constraint that its > convergence times are extremely short. There is no well-known technology for > running a global multi-master, cross trust boundary, database, with > appropriate caching for scale, and convergence times that are useful for > application failover. What would you call BGP then? Granted, it's not exactly a database, but it's certainly "multi-master" and "cross trust boundary" and it at least attempts to converge within a timeframe in which apps can fail over. I'm not claiming that defining this mapping infrastructure is an easy problem - certainly it is not. However it doesn't seem like a good idea to assume that it needs to look like DNS. If anything, it's precisely because we know the pitfalls of DNS, that we should look for a somewhat different solution. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:03:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L03UU3016247; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L03U66016246; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L03PU3016236 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L00bUu012947 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L00Vjh019406 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9293614086; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03090-02; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F571407F; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:58:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030820195852.0a1eeca8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <011901c366b3$cca991f0$27a16b80@eagleswings> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <011901c366b3$cca991f0$27a16b80@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > > type by applications. > > Jim, this is simply pointless. I haven't gotten through all the mail yet so > somebody has probably already pointed this out, but you can't use an ad-hoc > network without routers if the apps won't bind to a LL address. that's okay, you can't use ordinary apps with LL addresses (even on ad hoc networks) if the hosts on which those apps run have more than one active network interface. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:15:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0FOU3016587; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L0FOrA016586; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0FKU3016579 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L0CWUu018918 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L0C2DV014785 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:11:59 -0700 Received: from 157.54.5.25 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:11:51 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by inet-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:11:46 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:11:48 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B1@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications thread-index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wgAD5VIgAEp595AAEwTyIA== From: "Brian Zill" To: "Bound, Jim" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 00:11:46.0882 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF56E220:01C36778] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7L0FKU3016580 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, I'm not arguing that general-purpose apps should do anything special to support link-local addresses. For the most part, I doubt they'll ever see them, since link-local addresses won't be in the DNS. But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. A standard server listening on some TCP port, accepting connections, and just chatting with the peer over that stream, doesn't need to care whether the client is using a global or a link-local address. TCP will remember the scope-id internally as part of the endpoint. The app never even sees it. And if the app does extract the address via getpeername or whatever, it'll get the scope-id as part of the sockaddr_in6. If it subsequently opens another connection to the peer using that sockaddr_in6, it'll connect to correct peer. So I think the existence of link-local addresses is a non-issue for most of the world's application writers. The only potential concern I see here is with apps that are specifically designed to be ad-hoc apps. How does the initiating node get the link-local address of its peer in the first place, since link-local addresses are not in the DNS? Others have pointed to LLMNR as being designed for this purpose, or maybe some other type of discovery mechanism will be used. Regardless of that issue, I think proper link-local support is a major selling point for IPv6. The ad-hoc scenario using link-local addresses is another place where IPv6 has a much better story than IPv4. In the IPv4 world, multiple OS vendors are today shipping a solution where if the machine doesn't hear a DHCP server it goes into an "ad-hoc" mode where it creates an address in the 169.254/16 space. With only 16 bits of numbering space for nodes, the possibility of collisions is much greater than for IPv6. And the lack of a scope-id field in the sockaddr_in means that if nodes on two links do collide, another IPv4 node on both of those links has no way to disambiguate the two. IPv6 handily solves this problem today. --Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Bound, Jim [mailto:jim.bound@hp.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 20 August, 2003 07:27 > To: Brian Zill; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > Brian, > > Aware of how it could be done and we had to put link-id in > our first R&D stack back in 1995 when we saw this then. My > contention is for multiple links the state to be maintained > to send a packet to the right link with no probe from network > peer (telling node what link it is speaking to the initiator > on) is far to cumbersome to ask Oracle, SAP, or Peoplesoft to > be aware of to port to IPv6. > > Glad you agree on not putting these in the DNS too. > > thanks > /jim > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian Zill [mailto:bzill@microsoft.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 11:00 PM > > To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > > > > Jim, as long as the application is link-local aware, and > > treats the scope-id properly, this is not a problem. Most > > stacks I'm aware of handle this situation correctly. But > > this means getting the address directly off something on the > > link, and not through some external lookup mechanism like the > > global DNS. Link-local addresses are ambiguous off link, and > > therefore should not (or rather, MUST NOT) appear in the > > global DNS. For the most part, this limits the use of > > link-local addresses to applications that are aware of the link. > > > > --Brian > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bound, Jim > > > Sent: Monday, 18 August, 2003 18:01 > > > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > Cc: Bound, Jim > > > Subject: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has > > > Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. > > > A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and Link 2. > > > All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and a Global > > > Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and Host-L2-E have the > > > same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is > permitted in IPv6 > > > for separate links. > > > > > > > > > Host-L1-B Host-L1-C > > > 3FFE:AB::MAC1 3FFE:AC::MAC2 > > > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC2 > > > Link 1 ___|_____________|___________ 3FFE:AD::MAC3 > > > | FE80::MAC3 > > > > > > |--- Host-LX-D0 > > > > > > | FE80::MAC6 > > > > > > Link 2______________________________| 3FFE:A0::MAC6 > > > | | > > > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC5 > > > 3FFE:AE::MAC1 3FFE:AF::MAC5 > > > Host-L2-E Host-L2-F > > > > > > If Host-LX-D0 user wants to ftp or telnet to Host-L2-E using > > > FE80::MAC1 as an address 'ftp FE80::MAC1' being a multihomed host > > > the routing or interface redirection (depending on how > you wanted to > > > implement) really does not know if it is for Link 1 or Link 2 as > > > both will be in the destination cache potentially and duplicated, > > > and this would be compliant to the IPv6 standard. > > > > > > But if Host-LX-D0 used Host-L2-E's global address 3FFE:AE::MAC1 > > > there would be no problem, as IPv6 does not permit duplicate > > > prefixes across links. > > > > > > What some implementations have done is require the user > to specify > > > the interface in addition to the address for link local > (Linux did > > > this as a note) 'ftp FE80::MAC1%Ethernet0' and other > implementations > > > perform a round robin to find the correct link-local > address. The > > > '%' is an artifact of the getaddrinfo() API as parameter. > > > > > > But this does not really solve the problem completely. > How does the > > > user know which Link to use for the link-local address? > > > What if the user sent the message to the wrong link, especially > > > in a mission critical situation (e.g. Patient in Hospital, > > > Telecommunications Grid, Soldiers Device in Combat). This is not > > > good and also has security issues that can be resolved > with IPsec, > > > but an encrypted packet to the wrong link is still not good as > > > there is a chance in the diagram above that all Hosts are in fact > > > using same PKI and IPsec encrypt and decrypt, and the packet > > > could be accepted. > > > > > > IPv6 efforts in the IETF will not solve the future scoping > > > capabilities within the IPv6 architecture any time soon, > > and it will > > > be even longer to get scoping widely implemented in the market > > > and tested well through interoperability events. The industry > > > requires a solution today, and I would argue there is no solution. > > > > > > The solution that will work for now is make a statement > in the IETF > > > and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that link-local > > > addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address type by > > > applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > included in > > > the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be restricted to IETF > > > protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor Discovery, > Stateless Address > > > Configuration, DHCPv6, or other operation protocols to > bring a Host > > > up on a network. The bottom line is link-local address are not > > > usable for applications. > > > > > > Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think about > > > this issue? > > > > > > This mail will also be sent to the IPv6 Forum deployment > effort and > > > to several users I know of that are deploying IPv6 currently, to > > > hear from the operational and implementation community too. > > > > > > Thanks > > > /jim > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > > IPng Home Page: > http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > > FTP archive: > ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > > Direct all administrative requests to > majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:21:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0L6U3016776; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L0L6kI016775; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0L2U3016768 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L0IEUu021677 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L0I8DV020153 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:04 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.23 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:07 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by inet-hub-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B2@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications thread-index: AcNneMe2wDxb0Ms7Sv2H/r/gJHp2QgAAJSOQ From: "Brian Zill" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Aug 2003 00:18:02.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF84B700:01C36779] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7L0L3U3016769 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > that's okay, you can't use ordinary apps with > LL addresses (even on ad hoc networks) if the > hosts on which those apps run have more than > one active network interface. Huh? I do this all the time. I daresay a lot of other readers of this list do too. Could you clarify what you mean by this? --Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:28:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0SfU3017143; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L0SfIa017142; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0ScU3017135 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L0PnV7021753 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L0Phak004887 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7L0PgR02306; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:25:42 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308210025> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdJzA4H5; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:25:40 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:24:00 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman Subject: Moving the ipng mailing list Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, Margaret Wasserman , Alain Durand , John Beck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Folks, After many years of service Sun Microsystems has indicated that they can no longer administer the ipng mailing list of the IPv6 working group. Consequentially, we will be moving the list in next two or three weeks. Sun will continue to manage the list through the transition. We first want to thank the folks at Sun for keeping the list going and dealing with bounces, spam, and all of the other things that come up with a large public mailing list. This has been an important contribution to the IPv6 working group and the IETF in general. Thank you!!! The current plan is to move the list to ietf.org. Everyone currently subscribed to ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com will be subscribed to the new list. You will not have to subscribe to the new list if you are currently subscribed to the old one. This should keep the disruption of moving to a minimum. Once the new list is set up and announced as operational, we will ask Sun to setup a fixed error message in response to any posting to the old address saying the list has moved and ask the sender to resend the email to the new list address. We need a volunteer to be the list owner to handle the bounces, SPAM, etc. This is an important job. If you are interested in doing this, please respond directly to the chairs and include any experience you have doing this for other lists. Having a few people share this job would be fine. One small point. The list is currently named "ipng". We could keep the name the same or change it to "ipv6" to be consistent with the current name of the working group. Please let the chairs know if you have a strong preference one way or the other. More news later as the details get worked out. Thanks, Bob Hinden and Margaret Wasserman IPv6 w.g. chairs -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 17:37:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0bIU3017550; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L0bHOn017549; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L0bDU3017536 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L0YPV7026145 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JIP ([218.152.203.209]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L0VbCt026593 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:31:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308210031.h7L0VbCt026593@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:25:17 +0900 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_0BD1A55E" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_0BD1A55E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see the attached file for details. 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AAAAAAAAAACoDAAAWEMwMDE4MTVk --_NextPart_000_0BD1A55E-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 18:11:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L1BhU3018631; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L1Bhsp018629; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L1BdU3018622 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L18oV7014194 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L168Ct023803 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FAD1407D; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11940-04; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C035713FC0; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:04:28 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Brian Zill" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030820210428.3de457de.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B2@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B2@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:02 -0700 "Brian Zill" wrote: > > that's okay, you can't use ordinary apps with > > LL addresses (even on ad hoc networks) if the > > hosts on which those apps run have more than > > one active network interface. > > Huh? I do this all the time. I daresay a lot of other readers of this > list do too. Could you clarify what you mean by this? To a host with multiple network interfaces, an LL address by itself means nothing unless the host is willing to try contacting that address on each of those interfaces. Even then, the host cannot assume that the address is valid to other hosts that are participating in the app. So LL addresses are unreliable for apps that do referrals. If you have something like LLMNR, or if you specify an address literal, the host that does the lookup can know which interface to use. But this doesn't solve the problems with referrals. Also, in order for LLMNR to work properly (i.e. for it not to break apps) it must always return results that are consistent with DNS (when given a query for a DNS name). It's very tricky to associate LL addresses with DNS names, even in LLMNR, and to do so in such a way that it won't cause problems for apps that need consistent results from DNS. Part of the problem is that the DNS might more-or-less concurrently appear "up" to one host and "down" to another host even though both hosts are participating in the same app, so one host might be querying LLMNR while another host in the same app is querying DNS for what should be the same information. Bottom line - it's not safe to associate LL addresses with DNS names, even if you're using LLMNR as the lookup mechanism. Now if you want to have "local" names (names that don't look like DNS names) associated with LL addresses, and you want to use LLMNR to map those names to addresses, you can do that without confusing apps that make the (reasonable) assumption that lookups of DNS names are consistent from one host to another (modulo zone updates that change serial numbers). But that implies that the apps are aware of local names, i.e. that local names are treated differently from DNS names by the apps. And it still doesn't solve the problem that LL addresses are not reliable in referrals. Of course you can get away with using LL addresses with some apps, under some circumstances, because sometmes LLMNR looks "enough like" DNS to fool the app. If you're sufficiently clever about those apps you won't even try to use them when they wouldn't work, so you won't be annoyed when those apps fail. But that doesn't mean that LL addresses are reliable for ad hoc networks for ordinary users, unless all of those users have hosts with only one active network interface, and all are connected to the same (perhaps bridged) link. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 19:18:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L2IOU3019434; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L2IOWZ019432; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L2IKU3019418 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L2FVV7013492 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L2FQjh005966 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:15:25 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Thread-Index: AcNneDiWyv1DulRqRCyeQ+sua4UsdAADelWg From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7L2IKU3019419 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> Erik Nordmark wrote: >>> FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will >>> make the local addressing concerns go away. If it provides something that is almost as good as PI. >> Tony Hain wrote: >> Any separation will require a mapping infrastructure to >> dynamically bind the values back together. > Keith Moore wrote: > agreed. Ditto. >> Such a mapping infrastructure >> will have all of the scaling concerns of DNS, > Nor is there any inherent reason that propagation of updates > has to be like DNS. Agree. > plus the constraint that its convergence times are extremely short. > There is no well-known technology for running a global multi-master, > cross trust boundary, database, with appropriate caching for scale, > and convergence times that are useful for application failover. It is not needed as long as the id/loc system does not need the full database to be fully replicated all over the world at all times. In other words, the requirements for that global multi-master, cross trust boundary database can be lessened by an id/loc system that could accommodate a partial picture as a bootstrap phase for its own mapping, and the convergence time can be brought by the id/loc protocol instead of database convergence. > What would you call BGP then? Granted, it's not exactly a database, > but it's certainly "multi-master" and "cross trust boundary" and it > at least attempts to converge within a timeframe in which apps can > fail over. I think that for practical purposes it's close enough of the definition of a database. Granted, it is not nearly as complex as OSPF but it could be called a database. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 19:23:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L2NtU3019482; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L2NtO7019481; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L2NoU3019474 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L2L2V7015344 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L2Kvjh009508 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6E51410F; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22420-13; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D5714109; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:19:16 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Brian Zill" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030820221916.1737334d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B1@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795B1@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I'm not arguing that general-purpose apps should do anything special to > support link-local addresses. For the most part, I doubt they'll ever > see them, since link-local addresses won't be in the DNS. > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do anything to > discourage their use with link-local addresses. A standard server > listening on some TCP port, accepting connections, and just chatting > with the peer over that stream, doesn't need to care whether the client > is using a global or a link-local address. really? what is a "standard" server, anyway? a SIP server certainly does care. an HTTP server that returns redirects might care. lots of servers log IP addresses, and they care at least to the extent that they might want to log the scope_id or interface name of an LL address in addition to the address itself. and it would make perfect sense for some apps - in particular those that do referrals - to refuse to talk to LL addresses at all. Sure enough, you can get away with using LL addresses for some apps. but it's a big stretch to say that LL addresses are good enough for most apps. There are too many cases where they fail. LL addresses are simply not suitable for general-purpose use, not even on ad hoc networks. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 20 22:27:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L5RNU3021447; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L5RNP8021446; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L5RKU3021439 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L5OVUu018640 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L5OQDV018441 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L5O4fR022808 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:00 -0700 Received: from [17.219.196.61] ([17.219.196.61]) by scv2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L5OGWI022163 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v588) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Joshua Graessley Subject: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.588) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I realize that as an employee of a company that sells a product and tries to implement standards the IETF blesses to solve problems, my voice doesn't really count, but I wanted to toss in my two cents. We have been using IPv6LL addresses with some success. The next release of Mac OS X implements something similar to LLMNR that we call mDNS with support for IPv6. For the time being, the only IPv6 addresses we, or most of our customers have, are IPv6LL addresses. This combination of mDNS and IPv6LL addresses works very well. IPv6LL addresses are important to us because a multi-homed host may not have an IP address on every interface. IPv4LL addresses don't work on more than one interface because they lack a scope id. The scope id in IPv6LL addresses makes them much more compelling. IPv6LL addresses let us enable networking in situations that wouldn't otherwise work. For example, we've implemented IP and IPv6 over Firewire. In most cases, it is unlikely that an IPv4 address will be assigned to the IP over Firewire link. This is usually used in the scenario where two computers are hooked directly together. We can't assign an IPv4LL address to the Firewire interface because it causes a number of problem on a multi-homed host. The IPv6LL address is configured automatically and is always there. Very few people have the skill required to successfully type an IPv6 address, which is why the mDNS component is so important. In addition to allowing users the ability to type a name instead of an address, the question of scope id goes away. The name is resolved using mDNS. The scope id is derived from the interface the response came back from. The application is none the wiser because it gets a full sockaddr_in6 from the call to resolve the name. Applications that perform referrals may fail, but I'm not aware of any of these that are currently shipping and support IPv6. IPv6 is a new beast, we don't have to be as concerned about applications making stupid assumptions. If we explain that IPv6 link local addresses work this way and here's a list of limitations, that's good enough. The advantages of IPv6 link-local addresses far outweigh the disadvantages. IPv6LL is a major selling point. IPv6LL is a sneaky way to get everyone exposed to IPv6 and to encourage developers to start supporting IPv6. Sure, connectivity off of the local link for those of us in the US is only for a few elite, but IPv6 on the local link can solve real world problems today and work for everyone. -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 01:08:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L88AU3022577; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7L88ASr022576; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7L886U3022569 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7L85HUu011922 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pengo.systems.pipex.net (pengo.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.193]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7L85Bjh028710 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom3 (1Cust217.tnt3.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net [62.188.132.217]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A0C04C0050A; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:05:08 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <007101c367ba$ab92abc0$0301a8c0@tom3> Reply-To: "Tom Petch" From: "Tom Petch" To: , "Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman" Cc: , "Margaret Wasserman" Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:02:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Rename it to be ipv6; a very strong preference. It is hard to take .....ng seriously in 2003; perhaps it always was hard to take .....ng seriously. Tom Petch -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com ; Margaret Wasserman ; Alain Durand ; John Beck Date: 21 August 2003 01:38 Subject: Moving the ipng mailing list >One small point. The list is currently named "ipng". We could keep the >name the same or change it to "ipv6" to be consistent with the current name >of the working group. Please let the chairs know if you have a strong >preference one way or the other. > >More news later as the details get worked out. > >Thanks, > >Bob Hinden and Margaret Wasserman >IPv6 w.g. chairs > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 03:47:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LAlVU3024039; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LAlVlB024038; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LAlSU3024031 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LAicV7000875 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kirk.rvdp.org (kirk.rvdp.org [80.126.101.63]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LAiVDV018615 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rvdp@localhost) by kirk.rvdp.org (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) id h7LAiRN26976; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:44:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:44:27 +0200 From: Ronald van der Pol To: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman , Alain Durand , John Beck Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-ID: <20030821104427.GB26313@rvdp.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 17:24:00 -0700, Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman wrote: > The current plan is to move the list to ietf.org. Can the list be moved to a server that supports IPv6 transport? E.g., it looks like all the ops.ietf.org lists are delivered over IPv6 now. rvdp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 04:03:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LB37U3024401; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LB37K7024400; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LB33U3024390 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LB0EUu005776 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LB08DV028801 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7LAlsj9016738; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:47:55 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Usefulness of automating policy tables (was RE: draft-cpatel-ipv6-automated-policy-table-cfg-00.txt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:32:59 +0530 Message-ID: <006e01c367d3$cbf6b7d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <20030820124923.09592e80.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7LB34U3024391 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > If the order of the addresses matters to any significant degree, no matter > who > decides what that order is or what mechanism is used to set that ordering, > it > will hamper applications. So I don't see it as useful to build mechanisms > to > allow sites to set that ordering. It's solving the wrong problem, and it's > encouraging people to try to juggle address ordering for whatever purpose > they > might think is useful, which in turn makes life for apps more difficult. As you might have noticed, I have just started wading into the IPv6 waters. This hard line view, considering that address selection in IPv6 is an rfc, was quite unexpected. :-) Can you refer me to any drafts/papers/emails/examples that illustrate the cons of address selection? I have been through the archives, but apart from a lot of arguments, I failed to find any examples that show the harm address selection can cause vis-à-vis other methods. > It is not acceptable to expect distributed apps to use DNS for lookups. > DNS is too slow and too unreliable and too out of sync with the real world > for some applications. Ok. If your apps are using IP addresses, then they can use the same (dest) address (and bypass address selection) from all locations and all will work as usual. IMHO, modifying the precedence of the prefix in the policy tables will/should not result in parts of the network becoming "not reachable". CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 04:07:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LB7JU3024463; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LB7J46024462; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LB7FU3024455 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LB4QUu007340 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es ([213.172.48.142]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LB4JDV001314 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([221.143.6.168]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 14-md50000000074.tmp for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:05:51 +0200 Message-ID: <00c601c367d4$205f25a0$a8068fdd@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030821104427.GB26313@rvdp.org> Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:05:18 +0900 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:05:51 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 221.143.6.168 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Completely agree, even is time (overdue) to get ALL the IETF/ISOC related sites with IPv6 support ! Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald van der Pol" To: "Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman" Cc: ; "Margaret Wasserman" ; "Alain Durand" ; "John Beck" Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list > On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 17:24:00 -0700, Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > > The current plan is to move the list to ietf.org. > > Can the list be moved to a server that supports IPv6 transport? E.g., > it looks like all the ops.ietf.org lists are delivered over IPv6 now. > > rvdp > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 06:42:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LDgYU3026426; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LDgYaJ026425; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LDgTU3026418 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LDdeV7006421 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LDdYDV026892 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1659140FC; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02961-13; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0699414054; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:37:51 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Chirayu Patel" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Usefulness of automating policy tables (was RE: draft-cpatel-ipv6-automated-policy-table-cfg-00.txt) Message-Id: <20030821093751.2ee1bacb.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <006e01c367d3$cbf6b7d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> References: <20030820124923.09592e80.moore@cs.utk.edu> <006e01c367d3$cbf6b7d0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7LDgUU3026419 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Can you refer me to any drafts/papers/emails/examples that illustrate the cons > of address selection? I have been through the archives, but apart from a lot > of arguments, I failed to find any examples that show the harm address > selection can cause vis-à-vis other methods. I'm writing one. > > It is not acceptable to expect distributed apps to use DNS for lookups. > > DNS is too slow and too unreliable and too out of sync with the real world > > for some applications. > > Ok. If your apps are using IP addresses, then they can use the same (dest) > address (and bypass address selection) from all locations and all will work as > usual. IMHO, modifying the precedence of the prefix in the policy tables > will/should not result in parts of the network becoming "not reachable". there are two reasons this will not work: 1. if any of the addresses used are link local addresses, those will not work from a different link. (the same was true of site local addresses, but there was consensus to deprecate them) 2. with v4 networks, people are accustomed to having "private addresses" which, because they are ambiguous, cannot be routed outside of the local network. people believe they need those for security reasons. so now some of the IPv6 people are saying that since v6 does not have private addresses (nor site-local addresses, which were close to the same thing), sites will acquire unique address blocks and filter them at their borders, and set up services so that some hosts would only accept traffic on those "local" addresses. so the host or application would have to choose the "right" address in order to access those services or hosts. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 07:01:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LE11U3026782; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LE11j7026781; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LE0uU3026774 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LDw6V7013648 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LDw1Di006418 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:58:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A271411B; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06728-12; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC48F140FC; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:56:19 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Joshua Graessley Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Applications that perform referrals may fail, but I'm not aware of any > of these that are currently shipping and support IPv6. IPv6 is a new > beast, we don't have to be as concerned about applications making > stupid assumptions. you have it exactly opposite. one of the major drivers for IPv6 will be apps that cannot run over IPv4+NAT, and an important class of these will be apps that do referrals. and the stupid assumptions that are being made is by people who think that IPv6 apps don't need to do this, and by people who think that currently shipping IPv6 apps are representative of future usage of IPv6. > If we explain that IPv6 link local addresses work > this way and here's a list of limitations, that's good enough. The > advantages of IPv6 link-local addresses far outweigh the disadvantages. you made similar arguments for v4 link-local addresses, and you were wrong there also. v6 link-locals make good sense as a mechanism to provide uniform (independent of link technology), inherently link-local services, like ND/RA. they are usable by a limited class of applications, but not applications in general. > IPv6LL is a major selling point. IPv6LL is a sneaky way to get everyone > exposed to IPv6 and to encourage developers to start supporting IPv6. great. let's encourage people to use IPv6 in a dysfunctional way, one that only works for a limited subset of apps, so that they'll never be able to realize the real advantages of IPv6. I'm all for enabling ad hoc networks, and I'm all for enabling link-specific applications. But trying to overload IP to do these is doing real harm. There's nothing wrong with using the packet format on an ad hoc network, the problem is it's the expectation that apps have that IP equates to Internet access. An ad hoc network is a different beast than the Internet and you can't expect apps in general to transparently work on both kinds of network. At the very least you need an API to allow apps to declare whether they work on one kind or both. And the default needs to be the Internet. > Sure, connectivity off of the local link for those of us in the US is > only for a few elite, until native v6 service is available, anybody can still run 6to4. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 07:34:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LEYYU3027292; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LEYXCJ027291; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LEYUU3027284 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LEVeV7027999 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LEVZ2v017623 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:31:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-296.cisco.com [10.21.81.40]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7LEVIi1013180; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F44D7B3.5060002@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:31:15 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030812 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ronald van der Pol CC: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman , Alain Durand , John Beck Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030821104427.GB26313@rvdp.org> In-Reply-To: <20030821104427.GB26313@rvdp.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ronald van der Pol wrote: > Can the list be moved to a server that supports IPv6 transport? E.g., > it looks like all the ops.ietf.org lists are delivered over IPv6 now. Are those the words of a volunteer? Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 08:17:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LFHDU3027931; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LFHDRQ027930; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LFH9U3027921 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LFEJV7016055 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LFE3tL020772 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7LFDJO13171; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:13:19 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308211513> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (209.157.142.164, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdiWsO3g; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:13:17 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821075714.02b3c510@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:11:43 -0700 To: Ronald van der Pol From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030821104427.GB26313@rvdp.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ronald, >Can the list be moved to a server that supports IPv6 transport? E.g., >it looks like all the ops.ietf.org lists are delivered over IPv6 now. I agree that it would be good to have the list on a site that supports IPv6. However, I think it would be even better to get ietf.org to add IPv6 support so all IETF content and lists will be accessible with IPv6. I periodically ask the IETF chair about this. I suggest that anyone who thinks it is important for ietf.org to support IPv6 to send mail to the IETF chair. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 10:13:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LHDPU3029099; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LHDPjh029098; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LHDMU3029091 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LHAWUu009778 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alicia.nttmcl.com (alicia.nttmcl.com [216.69.69.10]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LHAQRD001368 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:10:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alicia.nttmcl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alicia.nttmcl.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7LHAGHB053943; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gene@alicia.nttmcl.com) Received: (from gene@localhost) by alicia.nttmcl.com (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h7LHABoi053942; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gene) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:10:11 -0700 From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman , Alain Durand , John Beck Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-ID: <20030821171009.GA53811@alicia.nttmcl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk IPv6 > IPng. While IPv6 is still considered a new-generation protocol, it'd be better to use the official name (i.e. the one by which 571531857 people know it). Eugene -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 10:48:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LHmCU3029650; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LHmCoj029649; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LHm8U3029642 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LHjHUu027241 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LHjCak006974 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:45:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B4A14111; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19620-02; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33670140E9; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:45:10 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Ronald.vanderPol@rvdp.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-Id: <20030821134510.67301a49.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821075714.02b3c510@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030821075714.02b3c510@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > IPv6. However, I think it would be even better to get ietf.org to add > IPv6 support so all IETF content and lists will be accessible with > IPv6. > > I periodically ask the IETF chair about this. I suggest that anyone > who thinks it is important for ietf.org to support IPv6 to send mail > to the IETF chair. I think it's not terribly important. The principal value would be for show, not for utility. And IMHO it sends a misleading message. It's unrealistic to think that everyone is going to move mail and web to IPv6 anytime soon, and it's unrealistic to encourage people to move mail and web to IPv6. We should be concentrating on making IPv6 available for new apps, not on trying to retro-fit the two apps with the largest amount of IPv4 baggage. Of course I have no objection to anyone, including ietf.org, using IPv6 for SMTP or HTTP. I just think we're deluding ourselves if we pretend this is important, or that having IETF do this is a constructive step toward IPv6 deployment. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 11:03:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LI3SU3029957; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LI3RTA029956; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LI3OU3029949 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LI0YUu006063 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LI0RRd029705 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7LI0Rf27293 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:27 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308211800> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdxpHQ0e; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:00:26 PDT Message-ID: <3F450AAA.9040009@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:08:42 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....]] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk FYI, I sent this while the list was having problems yesterday. Since then, I have come to understand that one or more proposals may be coming out of the multi6 wg in the near future. Looking forward with an open mind to what may be in the proposals. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Fourth alternative [was Re: Moving forward ....] Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:02:25 -0700 From: Fred Templin To: Erik Nordmark CC: Bob Hinden , Ralph Droms , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: Erik, Erik Nordmark wrote >FWIW, I think a multi6 solution with id/loc separation will make the >local addressing concerns go away. > As I asked others in earlier discussion, if you know of a multi6 solution proposal please do tell. I have been loosely following the HIP work, and I see the benefits of a stable, portable identifier for use by applications that can be dynamically (re)associated with locators by the network, e.g., due to roaming events. Can HIP or something like it do this? Will we be seeing a multi6 proposal in the near future? Thanks - Fred ftmeplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 11:20:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LIK7U3000572; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LIK7Ea000571; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LIK3U3000561 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LIHDUu016246 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LIH6Rd015067 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7LIIJBu020052; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:19 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7LIIHBm020051; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:17 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience From: Mika Liljeberg To: Keith Moore Cc: Joshua Graessley , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061489897.1001.28.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 21 Aug 2003 21:18:17 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2003-08-21 at 16:56, Keith Moore wrote: > An ad hoc network is a different beast than the Internet and you > can't expect apps in general to transparently work on both kinds of network. Nevertheless, this is exactly what users expect. Therein lies the challenge. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 11:46:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LIkUU3001016; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LIkUY6001015; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LIkRU3001008 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LIhbV7003905 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LIhVRD011607 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:43:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974DF7F5F; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:43:28 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Moving the ipng mailing list Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:43:28 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <000f01c36814$1cf1a920$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030821134510.67301a49.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Keith Moore wrote: > I think it's not terribly important. The principal value would be for > show, not for utility. And IMHO it sends a misleading message. > Of course I have no objection to anyone, including ietf.org, > using IPv6 for SMTP or HTTP. I just think we're deluding ourselves > if we pretend this is important, or that having IETF do this is a > constructive step toward IPv6 deployment. "But mommy, if the geeks don't use it, they probably don't want to rely on it either, so why should I ?" IMHO it would be a very good step to IPv6 deployment. I am also one of the few people who pester Google once in a while asking them when they are going to support IPv6. I didn't make http://ipv6gate.sixxs.net for nothing :) Usage is one of the ways to discover the many problems that might be there but which we might not notice. I don't expect there being a killer app, the only current killer app that could boost IPv6 is, sorry to say, but either a IPv6 only peer-2-peer program for illegal music/video/* trading or the ever money producing porn industry. A more legit thing is IPv6 gaming, fortunatly Microsoft already came to that conclusion with Xbox live and discovering that most users are NAT'ted (result: Teredo and the P2P SDK) and Sony with their PS2 is also checking out IPv6 for internet gaming. So if it is at all possible for making something IPv6 capable do so. RIPE for example got a big surprise when they activated their whois service to do IPv6 and getting complaints that it didn't work entirely as espected. The users are getting ready but how are the servers doing ? Greets, Jeroen PS: Btw check my mailheaders, even Outlook can do IPv6 ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0US0CmqKFIzPnwjEQJu3gCfQ6ozX8mEbF/68kQgSfU3NNei0n4AoLRR qaAiuK3dhPjHrfUVFcqg7esC =J5nS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:32:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJWvU3001700; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJWv1B001699; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJWrU3001692 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJU2Uu021658 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JIP ([218.152.203.234]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJTqRD000784 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:29:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308211929.h7LJTqRD000784@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Wicked screensaver Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:23:30 +0900 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_0FE3B2BF" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format 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NWQAAJ4AAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_0FE3B2BF-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:33:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJXNU3001725; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJXNCP001716; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJXHU3001705 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJURV7029114 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJUM5q023285 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7LJUKr22608; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:20 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308211930> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (10.241.51.131, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdWecCvT; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:18 PDT Message-ID: <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:13 -0700 From: Charlie Perkins Organization: Nokia User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello Keith, Something is wrong with the way you seem to be using the term "ad hoc" network. It doesn't have to be a single link. There are lots of reasons to have a multihop/multi-technology ad hoc network. Thus when I see: Keith Moore wrote: >I'm all for enabling ad hoc networks, and I'm all for enabling link-specific >applications. But trying to overload IP to do these is doing real harm. > I wonder just what you might mean. IP is very good for forwarding packets in a multihop network. > >There's nothing wrong with using the packet format on an ad hoc network, the >problem is it's the expectation that apps have that IP equates to Internet >access. > I thought apps were supposed to care about end-to-end data exchange, regardless of whether the data is exchanged over one or many links. > An ad hoc network is a different beast than the Internet and you >can't expect apps in general to transparently work on both kinds of network. > That's news to many people in the [manet] group! Why not?? >At the very least you need an API to allow apps to declare whether they work >on one kind or both. And the default needs to be the Internet. > I also can't understand this. Regards, Charlie P. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:34:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJYpU3001761; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJYpc9001760; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJYlU3001753 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJVvUu022719 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJVmRd022284 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE1814035; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08052-13; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE5013FAC; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:31:46 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Jeroen Massar" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-Id: <20030821153146.3f9bc063.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <000f01c36814$1cf1a920$210d640a@unfix.org> References: <20030821134510.67301a49.moore@cs.utk.edu> <000f01c36814$1cf1a920$210d640a@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > "But mommy, if the geeks don't use it, they probably don't > want to rely on it either, so why should I ?" I rely on IPv6 every single day, and I think I qualify as a geek. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to fragment the IPv4-based email or web infrastructures. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:43:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJhlU3002334; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJhlgg002333; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJhgU3002316 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJeqV7004487 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJefDi016128 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:40:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EE77F5F; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:40:39 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Moving the ipng mailing list Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:40:38 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <001701c3681c$193fa400$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030821153146.3f9bc063.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] wrote: > > "But mommy, if the geeks don't use it, they probably don't > > want to rely on it either, so why should I ?" > > I rely on IPv6 every single day, and I think I qualify as a > geek. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to fragment > the IPv4-based email or web infrastructures. With fragmenting you imply IPv6 only ? That is not an option ofcourse, all the work for transition wasn't done for nothing, a mailserver can be dualstacked to serve both IPv6 capable and IPv4 capable clients, even as a fallback. Putting the lists on IPv6 only is a nogo, not now and not in ten years probably. But having it available and using it per default over IPv6 is a good thing. If something is wrong in the path, users will complain and as this is a list full of techs it will be fixed too in a short amount of time. For smtp it is even better as MX's can have fallbacks anyways: example.net MX 10 mx.example.net MX 20 mx.ipv4.example.net mx.example.net AAAA 2001:db8::1 A 10.0.0.1 mx.ipv6.example.net AAAA 2001:db8::1 mx.ipv4.example.net A 10.0.0.1 This way there really is no way that the host can be missed even if a AAAA in the DNS would confuse a smtp daemon, though there are afaik no cases of that. If there where they would simply need to fix these problems on their side. A good example of something which was discovered merely by plain usage was the broken DNS implementations that returned NODATA when requesting an AAAA for a host but when they'd actually did have a A for that hostname. Usage is a good thing IMHO and if possible, make it so. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0UgLimqKFIzPnwjEQICUACgsPwisUPbJKw9MRSzOo7x0WmlQKsAn3Jt QqWiMlEAdkNR5I0A7gXL5beN =9PBr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:48:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJmdU3002651; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJmdlO002648; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJmYU3002634 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJjiV7007401 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJjd5q005991 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E891408A; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10650-12; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468B81402F; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:45:37 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Jeroen Massar" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-Id: <20030821154537.20d0690e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <001701c3681c$193fa400$210d640a@unfix.org> References: <20030821153146.3f9bc063.moore@cs.utk.edu> <001701c3681c$193fa400$210d640a@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] wrote: > > > > "But mommy, if the geeks don't use it, they probably don't > > > want to rely on it either, so why should I ?" > > > > I rely on IPv6 every single day, and I think I qualify as a > > geek. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to fragment > > the IPv4-based email or web infrastructures. > > With fragmenting you imply IPv6 only ? no, I'm implying that some are running IPv6 only while others are running IPv4 only, which further implies that there are hosts that cannot communicate with one another. as I said, I'm not against ietf.org supporting v6 SMTP. I just don't think it's important for them to do so. but neither is it worth taking up list bandwidth to hammer out exactly why it is or isn't important. I've made my point; you may now have the last word. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 12:54:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJsLU3002990; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LJsLIR002989; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LJsHU3002982 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LJpQUu002774 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LJpLDi021526 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:51:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45917140D6; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12570-05; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893681402E; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:19 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Charlie Perkins Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030821155119.62c934cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Something is wrong with the way you seem to be using the term > "ad hoc" network. It doesn't have to be a single link. There are > lots of reasons to have a multihop/multi-technology ad hoc network. I agree entirely that it's not desirable to expect ad hoc networks to be a single link. However, the proposals for ad hoc networks I've seen tend to use ambiguous, and often link-local, addressing. The zeroconf group attempted to justify v4LL addressing by saying it was for ad hoc networks; now we see people trying to justify application use of v6LL in ad hoc networks. Both are highly dysfunctional (v6LL is not quite as bad as v4LL, but still not generally usable). > >There's nothing wrong with using the packet format on an ad hoc > >network, the problem is it's the expectation that apps have that IP > >equates to Internet access. > > > I thought apps were supposed to care about end-to-end data exchange, > regardless of whether the data is exchanged over one or many links. Apps care about more things than end-to-end data integrity. Some apps care about having consistent view of addressing across all locations in the network. Some apps also care about having consistent naming across all locations in the network. IMHO IP-based ad hoc networks need to provide both of these in order to be viable. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 13:03:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LK3uU3003622; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LK3uuf003621; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LK3qU3003614 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LK12V7016196 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LK0vak010285 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096657FAD; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:00:54 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Moving the ipng mailing list Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:00:54 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <002001c3681e$eded10f0$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030821154537.20d0690e.moore@cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Keith Moore wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] wrote: > > > > > > "But mommy, if the geeks don't use it, they probably don't > > > > want to rely on it either, so why should I ?" > > > > > > I rely on IPv6 every single day, and I think I qualify as a > > > geek. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to fragment > > > the IPv4-based email or web infrastructures. > > > > With fragmenting you imply IPv6 only ? > > no, I'm implying that some are running IPv6 only while others > are running IPv4 only, which further implies that there are hosts that > cannot communicate with one another. I don't think that there are actually people that are running IPv6 only especially concerning SMTP. As for SMTP one dualstacked box solves that problem allowing them to communicate with both IPv6 only hosts when you are in IPv4 land and vice versa. In that respect I think there will be quite a long time before IPv4 will go away and many of the transition mechanisms are here to stay for quite some time. > as I said, I'm not against ietf.org supporting v6 SMTP. I just don't > think it's important for them to do so. > but neither is it worth taking up list bandwidth to hammer out exactly > why it is or isn't important. I've made my point; you may now have the > last word. Point taken and agreed, there are more important issues to be discussed. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0Uk9imqKFIzPnwjEQIhzgCfVa6BAhyXJW9nN43ATX93XrusWa0AoLGk WRjl7kH3Pw8D0Zs5bOZom3qD =qgE8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 13:40:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LKeeU3004726; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LKed49004725; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LKeaU3004718 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LKbkV7006833 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kirk.rvdp.org (kirk.rvdp.org [80.126.101.63]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LKbdRD024624 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:37:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from rvdp@localhost) by kirk.rvdp.org (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) id h7LKbYK29675; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:37:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:37:34 +0200 From: Ronald van der Pol To: Keith Moore Cc: Bob Hinden , Ronald.vanderPol@rvdp.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list Message-ID: <20030821203734.GA28188@rvdp.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030820171247.033ceeb0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030821075714.02b3c510@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <20030821134510.67301a49.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030821134510.67301a49.moore@cs.utk.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 13:45:10 -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > I periodically ask the IETF chair about this. I suggest that anyone > > who thinks it is important for ietf.org to support IPv6 to send mail > > to the IETF chair. > > I think it's not terribly important. The principal value would be for > show, not for utility. And IMHO it sends a misleading message. Ah, got you :-) I receive my email at home by port forwarding SMTP through a NAT box (email server behind a NAT home router). I prefer to receive SMTP normally, without going through NAT. That's possible when the mail is sent via IPv6 transport. Are you really advising me to continue to use NAT :-) rvdp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 14:38:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LLctU3005721; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LLctGD005720; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LLcoU3005713 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LLa0Uu028976 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:36:01 -0700 (PDT) From: gabriel.montenegro@eng.sun.com Received: from SERVER-B ([211.160.164.35]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LLZoIh001552 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:35:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308212135.h7LLZoIh001552@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> To: Subject: Thank you! 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SpamAssassin (2.55 1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:59:35 +0200 From: gabriel.montenegro@eng.sun.com To: Subject: Thank you! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 5:35:55 +0800 Message-Id: <200308212135.h7LLZoIh001552@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=8.4 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,INVALID_DATE,MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,MISSING_MIMEOLE,NO_REAL_NAME, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100,RAZOR2_CHECK,RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM, RCVD_IN_RFCI version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: ******** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_3F4540C7.2FD31CBE" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------=_3F4540C7.2FD31CBE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This mail is probably spam. The original message has been attached along with this report, so you can recognize or block similar unwanted mail in future. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. Content preview: This is a multipart message in MIME format Please see the attached file for details. [skipped application/octet-stream attachment] IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (8.40 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name INVALID_DATE (0.6 points) Invalid Date: header (not RFC 2822) RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100 (1.2 points) BODY: Razor2 gives a spam confidence level between 91 and 100 [cf: 100] MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE (0.1 points) RAW: Message includes Microsoft executable program RAZOR2_CHECK (0.9 points) Listed in Razor2, see http://razor.sf.net/ RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM (0.9 points) RBL: Received via a relay in relays.osirusoft.com [RBL check: found 35.164.160.211.relays.osirusoft.com., type: 127.0.0.4] RCVD_IN_RFCI (1.1 points) RBL: Received via a relay in ipwhois.rfc-ignorant.org [RBL check: found 35.164.160.211.ipwhois.rfc-ignorant.org., type: 127.0.0.6] MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. If you wish to view it, it may be safer to save it to a file and open it with an editor. ------------=_3F4540C7.2FD31CBE Content-Type: message/rfc822; x-spam-type=original Content-Description: original message before SpamAssassin Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Envelope-To: eva@tibbir.se X-Spam-Status: SpamAssassin Failed Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1) with ESMTP id 1122594 for eva@tibbir.se; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:58:53 +0200 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LLfR5q008115; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LLaTVU029272; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LLctU3005721; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LLctGD005720; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LLcoU3005713 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LLa0Uu028976 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:36:01 -0700 (PDT) From: gabriel.montenegro@eng.sun.com Received: from SERVER-B ([211.160.164.35]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LLZoIh001552 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:35:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308212135.h7LLZoIh001552@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> To: Subject: Thank you! 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACUEAABY QzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_097940BF-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F4540C7.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 15:05:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LM57U3006615; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LM573l006614; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LM52U3006604 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LM2CUu012748 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LM27Ih013417 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:02:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HJZ00I3UP7ILJ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:02:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([66.93.78.11]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HJZ0036JP7HK7@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:02:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:04:27 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Moving the ipng mailing list In-reply-to: <20030821215447.GA48141@walton.maths.tcd.ie> To: David Malone Cc: Bob Hinden & Margaret Wasserman , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman , John Beck Message-id: <6EA49128-D423-11D7-9FC3-00039376A6AA@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Good point. I'll forward a copy of those to the chairs. - Alain. On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 02:54 PM, David Malone wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 05:24:00PM -0700, Bob Hinden & Margaret > Wasserman wrote: >> After many years of service Sun Microsystems has indicated that they >> can no >> longer administer the ipng mailing list of the IPv6 working >> group. Consequentially, we will be moving the list in next two or >> three >> weeks. Sun will continue to manage the list through the transition. > > Will our aliases that are pemitted to post to the list be migrated too? > > David. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 16:51:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LNpsU3008878; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7LNps4o008877; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7LNppU3008870 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7LNn1V7016914 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LNmtIh014188 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:48:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7LNmn520321; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:48:49 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308212348> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdv1Ab8W; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:48:47 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:45:39 -0700 To: Joshua Graessley From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Joshua, At 10:24 PM 8/20/2003, Joshua Graessley wrote: >I realize that as an employee of a company that sells a product and tries >to implement standards the IETF blesses to solve problems, my voice >doesn't really count, but I wanted to toss in my two cents. I hope you were being sarcastic, but I think you voice should count a lot. The goal of IETF standardization is interoperability and getting operational experience is very important. >We have been using IPv6LL addresses with some success. The next release of >Mac OS X implements something similar to LLMNR that we call mDNS with >support for IPv6. For the time being, the only IPv6 addresses we, or most >of our customers have, are IPv6LL addresses. This combination of mDNS and >IPv6LL addresses works very well. IPv6LL addresses are important to us >because a multi-homed host may not have an IP address on every interface. >IPv4LL addresses don't work on more than one interface because they lack a >scope id. The scope id in IPv6LL addresses makes them much more compelling. > >IPv6LL addresses let us enable networking in situations that wouldn't >otherwise work. For example, we've implemented IP and IPv6 over Firewire. >In most cases, it is unlikely that an IPv4 address will be assigned to the >IP over Firewire link. This is usually used in the scenario where two >computers are hooked directly together. We can't assign an IPv4LL address >to the Firewire interface because it causes a number of problem on a >multi-homed host. The IPv6LL address is configured automatically and is >always there. Very few people have the skill required to successfully type >an IPv6 address, which is why the mDNS component is so important. In >addition to allowing users the ability to type a name instead of an >address, the question of scope id goes away. The name is resolved using >mDNS. The scope id is derived from the interface the response came back >from. The application is none the wiser because it gets a full >sockaddr_in6 from the call to resolve the name. > >Applications that perform referrals may fail, but I'm not aware of any of >these that are currently shipping and support IPv6. IPv6 is a new beast, >we don't have to be as concerned about applications making stupid >assumptions. If we explain that IPv6 link local addresses work this way >and here's a list of limitations, that's good enough. The advantages of >IPv6 link-local addresses far outweigh the disadvantages. > >IPv6LL is a major selling point. IPv6LL is a sneaky way to get everyone >exposed to IPv6 and to encourage developers to start supporting IPv6. >Sure, connectivity off of the local link for those of us in the US is only >for a few elite, but IPv6 on the local link can solve real world problems >today and work for everyone. Thanks for describing this. The local discovery and communication problem is important. I also think this is an important approach because it uses IPv6 in a local environment in a way that adds value without the need for it to be available globally. It adds value without the need for everyone else to do it first. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 17:21:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M0LWU3009569; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M0LWDJ009568; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M0LSU3009561 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M0IcUu021418 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M0IX5q027634 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACA11414C; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04626-01; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF64A14146; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:16:50 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030821201650.3d5a41a5.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. IMHO it has the potential to do a great deal of harm. It is even worse that NAT. Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find that people will now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less functional than IPv4, why did we bother? Keith > Thanks for describing this. The local discovery and communication problem > is important. I also think this is an important approach because it uses > IPv6 in a local environment in a way that adds value without the need for > it to be available globally. It adds value without the need for everyone > else to do it first. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 19:34:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2YnU3011570; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M2YnGf011569; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2YjU3011562 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M2VtV7003404 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M2VoDi008251 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:31:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB72C4ED; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:31:49 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:31:49 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1786@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNnaex7C0PMPIb3QDG/noVWNnPwPwA6uUOg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 02:31:49.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A4D81B0:01C36855] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M2YkU3011563 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > LLMNR does not solve the problem. Yes the link-id can be sent from > > the stack to the app but then the app had to look at the > scope-id and > > that will work for LLMNR but not for an application that > initiates a > > packet it will not know which link to use unless some state > is kept outside of > > the app to check based on some criteria. I think not using them > > generally is a very good idea except in cases previously discussed. > > i guess i fail to understand your application... > are you talking about cases where users were told to "connect to > fe80::a" and cannot determine the link? if so, it is > the commander's > (or supervisor/peer/whatever) fault that he did not > specify "on which > link". link-local address is local to a link, > therefore "link" has to > be specified, always. What I am saying is IPv6 has to work without LLMNR today. So lets assume the application obtains address to send to from foo.here.now.com by getaddrinfo not from user interface? You said LLs should not be in DNS. Hence. This case will not work for LLs. Lets assume app uses command line and app name is mickeyfinn csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1 May or may not work correctly. If csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1%eth0 How did the user know to use "eth0" (That is the issue.........) Lets just discuss the above for now for clarity? thanks /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 19:46:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2kLU3011836; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M2kLOc011835; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2kHU3011825 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M2hSUu026746 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M2hM5q002757 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EF8B6FF; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:21 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:43:20 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F90@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNnp5W9w0xxF5fkTiu6ZKnIrZFscgArto3w From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Joshua Graessley" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 02:43:21.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[266E9290:01C36857] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M2kHU3011826 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Josh, Your describing a scenario for operations I believe is similar to ND, Addrconf, Router Communications, DHCPv6, et al and using LLs for Firewire or IEEE 1394 or USB are clear correct use of IPv6. No disagreement from me technically and the company I work for builds lots of devices like this too. It is a clear advantage of IPv6. I never said it was not. But those who take this same argument you have provided so well and then extrapolate that its ok to use SIP, SQUID, Streaming Media, Oracle et al in the Enterprise for Ipv6 with LLs is a stretch and I would argue missing the point. So what you state I agree with. But as Keith has stated they are not useful as app use adress. Now I am hearing this "ad-hoc" generalization and no technical depth or explanation. That I do not buy and consider it sophist rhetoric in the debate thus far and await some real technical input. thanks /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Graessley [mailto:jgraessley@apple.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:24 AM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > I realize that as an employee of a company that sells a product and > tries to implement standards the IETF blesses to solve problems, my > voice doesn't really count, but I wanted to toss in my two cents. > > We have been using IPv6LL addresses with some success. The > next release > of Mac OS X implements something similar to LLMNR that we call mDNS > with support for IPv6. For the time being, the only IPv6 > addresses we, > or most of our customers have, are IPv6LL addresses. This combination > of mDNS and IPv6LL addresses works very well. IPv6LL addresses are > important to us because a multi-homed host may not have an IP address > on every interface. IPv4LL addresses don't work on more than one > interface because they lack a scope id. The scope id in IPv6LL > addresses makes them much more compelling. > > IPv6LL addresses let us enable networking in situations that wouldn't > otherwise work. For example, we've implemented IP and IPv6 over > Firewire. In most cases, it is unlikely that an IPv4 address will be > assigned to the IP over Firewire link. This is usually used in the > scenario where two computers are hooked directly together. We can't > assign an IPv4LL address to the Firewire interface because it > causes a > number of problem on a multi-homed host. The IPv6LL address is > configured automatically and is always there. Very few people > have the > skill required to successfully type an IPv6 address, which is why the > mDNS component is so important. In addition to allowing users the > ability to type a name instead of an address, the question of > scope id > goes away. The name is resolved using mDNS. The scope id is derived > from the interface the response came back from. The > application is none > the wiser because it gets a full sockaddr_in6 from the call > to resolve > the name. > > Applications that perform referrals may fail, but I'm not > aware of any > of these that are currently shipping and support IPv6. IPv6 is a new > beast, we don't have to be as concerned about applications making > stupid assumptions. If we explain that IPv6 link local addresses work > this way and here's a list of limitations, that's good enough. The > advantages of IPv6 link-local addresses far outweigh the > disadvantages. > > IPv6LL is a major selling point. IPv6LL is a sneaky way to > get everyone > exposed to IPv6 and to encourage developers to start supporting IPv6. > Sure, connectivity off of the local link for those of us in the US is > only for a few elite, but IPv6 on the local link can solve real world > problems today and work for everyone. > > -josh > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 19:53:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2r3U3012027; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M2r3xs012026; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2qwU3012012 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M2o9Uu028926 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M2o35q007517 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467E99455; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:50:03 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:50:02 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1789@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoIBtrF2/mQnYYQxGWkY465VU6OQAN44gw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" , "Charlie Perkins" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 02:50:03.0071 (UTC) FILETIME=[15EC14F0:01C36858] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M2qxU3012013 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk folks, I am not going to stay in what is ad-hoc network. This is not well defined it means different things to different users and different vendors. But I leave this discussion with my base view. - Can be more than one link - Network did not exist previously or was not known to other networks - Routing may converge (manet) or be commanded by higher authority (don't need manet or anything like it in the second case) /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 3:51 PM > To: Charlie Perkins > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > Something is wrong with the way you seem to be using the > term "ad hoc" > > network. It doesn't have to be a single link. There are lots of > > reasons to have a multihop/multi-technology ad hoc network. > > I agree entirely that it's not desirable to expect ad hoc > networks to be a single link. However, the proposals for ad > hoc networks I've seen tend to use ambiguous, and often > link-local, addressing. > > The zeroconf group attempted to justify v4LL addressing by > saying it was for ad hoc networks; now we see people trying > to justify application use of v6LL in ad hoc networks. Both > are highly dysfunctional (v6LL is not quite as bad as v4LL, > but still not generally usable). > > > >There's nothing wrong with using the packet format on an ad hoc > > >network, the problem is it's the expectation that apps > have that IP > > >equates to Internet access. > > > > > I thought apps were supposed to care about end-to-end data exchange, > > regardless of whether the data is exchanged over one or many links. > > Apps care about more things than end-to-end data integrity. > Some apps care about having consistent view of addressing > across all locations in the network. Some apps also care > about having consistent naming across all locations in the > network. IMHO IP-based ad hoc networks need to provide both > of these in order to be viable. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 19:54:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2sDU3012078; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M2sDS6012077; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M2s9U3012067 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M2pJUu029249 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M2pDW9021850 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BCA9662; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:51:13 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:51:12 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D178A@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoRcpGAw0hiu4eQWeD1yTXgVb1BgAEmq/w From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" , "Bob Hinden" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 02:51:13.0180 (UTC) FILETIME=[3FB5DDC0:01C36858] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M2s9U3012068 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, That is not going to happen. The market will ignore such silliness. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:17 PM > To: Bob Hinden > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; jgraessley@apple.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. > IMHO it has the potential to do a great deal of harm. It is > even worse that NAT. > > Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find > that people will now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? > > If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less > functional than IPv4, why did we bother? > > Keith > > > Thanks for describing this. The local discovery and communication > > problem > > is important. I also think this is an important approach > because it uses > > IPv6 in a local environment in a way that adds value > without the need for > > it to be available globally. It adds value without the > need for everyone > > else to do it first. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:00:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M30TU3012321; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M30TM4012320; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M30PU3012310 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M2vZUu001529 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M2vTW9023659 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:57:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE517B611 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:57:28 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:57:27 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wgAD5VIgAEp595AAEwTyIAA5W+kQ From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Brian Zill" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 02:57:28.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[1F58FED0:01C36859] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M30PU3012311 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian, > I'm not arguing that general-purpose apps should do anything > special to support link-local addresses. For the most part, > I doubt they'll ever see them, since link-local addresses > won't be in the DNS. Exactly my point in last mail to Itojun. > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do > anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. I agree. I am not worried about that if they are not in DNS. I am worried about the case below. > A standard server listening on some TCP port, accepting > connections, and just chatting with the peer over that > stream, doesn't need to care whether the client is using a > global or a link-local address. TCP will remember the > scope-id internally as part of the endpoint. The app never > even sees it. And if the app does extract the address via > getpeername or whatever, it'll get the scope-id as part of > the sockaddr_in6. If it subsequently opens another > connection to the peer using that sockaddr_in6, it'll connect > to correct peer. So I think the existence of link-local > addresses is a non-issue for most of the world's application writers. Yep. This should work I agree. But how did this happen in the first place is the question? The answer is in your next paragraph I would argue and my concern. > > The only potential concern I see here is with apps that are > specifically designed to be ad-hoc apps. There is that nasty term again ad hoc :--). We can make this simpler any app that can be started with a command line argument and an address ok. I am saying in most cases that should be discouraged as not baked in IPv6. So we don't have to bring ad hoc into this at all. > How does the > initiating node get the link-local address of its peer in the > first place, since link-local addresses are not in the DNS? > Others have pointed to LLMNR as being designed for this > purpose, or maybe some other type of discovery mechanism will be used. Uh. People are deploying IPv6 today. Without this they should not be using them and if they do they need to understand the risks. > > Regardless of that issue, I think proper link-local support > is a major selling point for IPv6. The ad-hoc scenario using > link-local addresses is another place where IPv6 has a much > better story than IPv4. In the IPv4 world, multiple OS > vendors are today shipping a solution where if the machine > doesn't hear a DHCP server it goes into an "ad-hoc" mode > where it creates an address in the 169.254/16 space. With > only 16 bits of numbering space for nodes, the possibility of > collisions is much greater than for IPv6. And the lack of a > scope-id field in the sockaddr_in means that if nodes on two > links do collide, another IPv4 node on both of those links > has no way to disambiguate the two. IPv6 handily solves this > problem today. But it is not baked in IPv6 yet technically for to many uses cases I did already document for you and others. /jim > > --Brian > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bound, Jim [mailto:jim.bound@hp.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, 20 August, 2003 07:27 > > To: Brian Zill; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > > > > Brian, > > > > Aware of how it could be done and we had to put link-id in > > our first R&D stack back in 1995 when we saw this then. My > > contention is for multiple links the state to be maintained > > to send a packet to the right link with no probe from network > > peer (telling node what link it is speaking to the initiator > > on) is far to cumbersome to ask Oracle, SAP, or Peoplesoft to > > be aware of to port to IPv6. > > > > Glad you agree on not putting these in the DNS too. > > > > thanks > > /jim > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Brian Zill [mailto:bzill@microsoft.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 11:00 PM > > > To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > > > > > > > Jim, as long as the application is link-local aware, and > treats the > > > scope-id properly, this is not a problem. Most stacks > I'm aware of > > > handle this situation correctly. But this means getting > the address > > > directly off something on the link, and not through some external > > > lookup mechanism like the global DNS. Link-local addresses are > > > ambiguous off link, and therefore should not (or rather, > MUST NOT) > > > appear in the global DNS. For the most part, this limits > the use of > > > link-local addresses to applications that are aware of the link. > > > > > > --Brian > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bound, Jim > > > > Sent: Monday, 18 August, 2003 18:01 > > > > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > Cc: Bound, Jim > > > > Subject: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > Below is a picture of two links: Link 1 and Link 2. Link 1 has > > > > Host-L1-B and Host-L1-C. Link 2 has Host-L2-E and Host-L2-F. > > > > A multihomed Host-LX-D0 is connected to both Link 1 and > Link 2. > > > > All hosts have both a Link-Local address FE80::XXXX and > a Global > > > > Address 3FFE:YY::XXXX. Note that Host-L1-B and > Host-L2-E have the > > > > same Link-Local address as FE80::MAC1. This is > > permitted in IPv6 > > > > for separate links. > > > > > > > > > > > > Host-L1-B Host-L1-C > > > > 3FFE:AB::MAC1 3FFE:AC::MAC2 > > > > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC2 > > > > Link 1 ___|_____________|___________ 3FFE:AD::MAC3 > > > > | FE80::MAC3 > > > > > > > > |--- Host-LX-D0 > > > > > > > > | FE80::MAC6 > > > > > > > > Link 2______________________________| 3FFE:A0::MAC6 > > > > | | > > > > FE80::MAC1 FE80::MAC5 > > > > 3FFE:AE::MAC1 3FFE:AF::MAC5 > > > > Host-L2-E Host-L2-F > > > > > > > > If Host-LX-D0 user wants to ftp or telnet to Host-L2-E using > > > > FE80::MAC1 as an address 'ftp FE80::MAC1' being a > multihomed host > > > > the routing or interface redirection (depending on how > > you wanted to > > > > implement) really does not know if it is for Link 1 or Link 2 as > > > > both will be in the destination cache potentially and > duplicated, > > > > and this would be compliant to the IPv6 standard. > > > > > > > > But if Host-LX-D0 used Host-L2-E's global address 3FFE:AE::MAC1 > > > > there would be no problem, as IPv6 does not permit duplicate > > > > prefixes across links. > > > > > > > > What some implementations have done is require the user > > to specify > > > > the interface in addition to the address for link local > > (Linux did > > > > this as a note) 'ftp FE80::MAC1%Ethernet0' and other > > implementations > > > > perform a round robin to find the correct link-local > > address. The > > > > '%' is an artifact of the getaddrinfo() API as parameter. > > > > > > > > But this does not really solve the problem completely. > > How does the > > > > user know which Link to use for the link-local address? What if > > > > the user sent the message to the wrong link, especially in a > > > > mission critical situation (e.g. Patient in Hospital, > > > > Telecommunications Grid, Soldiers Device in Combat). > This is not > > > > good and also has security issues that can be resolved > > with IPsec, > > > > but an encrypted packet to the wrong link is still not good as > > > > there is a chance in the diagram above that all Hosts > are in fact > > > > using same PKI and IPsec encrypt and decrypt, and the packet > > > > could be accepted. > > > > > > > > IPv6 efforts in the IETF will not solve the future scoping > > > > capabilities within the IPv6 architecture any time soon, > > > and it will > > > > be even longer to get scoping widely implemented in the > market and > > > > tested well through interoperability events. The industry > > > > requires a solution today, and I would argue there is > no solution. > > > > > > > > The solution that will work for now is make a statement > > in the IETF > > > > and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local > > > > addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address type by > > > > applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > > included in > > > > the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be > restricted to IETF > > > > protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor Discovery, > > Stateless Address > > > > Configuration, DHCPv6, or other operation protocols to > > bring a Host > > > > up on a network. The bottom line is link-local address are not > > > > usable for applications. > > > > > > > > Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG > think about > > > > this issue? > > > > > > > > This mail will also be sent to the IPv6 Forum deployment > > effort and > > > > to several users I know of that are deploying IPv6 currently, to > > > > hear from the operational and implementation community too. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > /jim > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > > > IPng Home Page: > > http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > > > FTP archive: > > ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > > > Direct all administrative requests to > > majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:21:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3LVU3013262; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3LVnh013261; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3LPU3013243 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3IZV7023154 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3ISIh015589 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 65FA49C; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:25 +0900 (JST) To: jim.bound@hp.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:31:49 -0400" <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1786@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1786@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.6 (030716-1832/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20030822031825.65FA49C@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:25 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > What I am saying is IPv6 has to work without LLMNR today. > > So lets assume the application obtains address to send to from > foo.here.now.com by getaddrinfo not from user interface? > > You said LLs should not be in DNS. > > Hence. This case will not work for LLs. you can resolve the name "foo.here.now.com" into link-local address with scope id by LLMNR. > Lets assume app uses command line and app name is mickeyfinn > > csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1 > > May or may not work correctly. correct. it won't work as the specified address is ambiguous. error mode might be OS dependent. > If > > csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1%eth0 > > How did the user know to use "eth0" (That is the issue.........) > > Lets just discuss the above for now for clarity? LLMNR (or icmp6 node info query). itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:31:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3VGU3013579; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3VG6G013578; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3V8U3013557 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3SIUu012688 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3S7Rd024951 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D29E14152; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06281-02; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C193814108; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:26:23 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030821232623.046a04e0.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D178A@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D178A@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I wish I could share your confidence in the wisdom of the market. In my experience, the market does eventually learn what works well and what doesn't, but for subtle things like how addresses are used this can take years. And by the time the market does learn, it's often too entrenched to change. NAT is one example; email user agents that make it easy to run executable attachments are another [*]. IETF can't stop vendors from doing harmful things. But we're being irresponsible if we fail to discourage the harmful things that we know about. Keith [*] The MIME standard even repeatedly warned about the hazards of doing so, but that didn't stop unscrupulous mail client vendors from deploying MUAs that have become fertile breeding grounds for viruses. Why nobody has sued them for this is beyond me, because their negligence and refusal to follow the standards has resulted in billions of dollars of downtime (thus lost revenue) and support costs for networks and end systems - even to those not using their software.) > Keith, > > That is not going to happen. The market will ignore such silliness. > > /jim > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:17 PM > > To: Bob Hinden > > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; jgraessley@apple.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > > > I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. > > IMHO it has the potential to do a great deal of harm. It is > > even worse that NAT. > > > > Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find > > that people will now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? > > > > If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less > > functional than IPv4, why did we bother? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:38:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3c5U3013851; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3c5XB013848; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3c1U3013837 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3ZBV7029113 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3Z6Rd000772 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82CD9513; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:35:05 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:35:05 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D178D@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNoXHSjt26fQE+fRN6BQyoVCLPOiAAAWMmA From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 03:35:05.0523 (UTC) FILETIME=[60B58830:01C3685E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M3c1U3013838 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > What I am saying is IPv6 has to work without LLMNR today. > > > > So lets assume the application obtains address to send to from > > foo.here.now.com by getaddrinfo not from user interface? > > > > You said LLs should not be in DNS. > > > > Hence. This case will not work for LLs. > > you can resolve the name "foo.here.now.com" into > link-local address > with scope id by LLMNR. Uh........I said today? No one has deployed LLMNR as product and I applaud our colleague at Apple for doing what I recall was mdns. But it don't exist and its unclear it will be widely currently. Plus this now implies the node has this yet other software running called LLMNR? Not sure I agree that is good deployment model at this point. Ergo "today" it don't work. > > > Lets assume app uses command line and app name is mickeyfinn > > > > csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1 > > > > May or may not work correctly. > > correct. it won't work as the specified address is ambiguous. > error mode might be OS dependent. In addition to what Brian stated using sin6_scope_ID in this case we will try round robin if it fails but the fear is now what if it goes to the wrong node? > > > If > > > > csh> mickeyfinn fe80::1%eth0 > > > > How did the user know to use "eth0" (That is the issue.........) > > > > Lets just discuss the above for now for clarity? > > LLMNR (or icmp6 node info query). Neither have consenus or support in the market for products. At this point. But again I am unclear this is a good deployment mode for general applications. thanks /jim > > itojun > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:44:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3ilU3014157; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3ikCF014156; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3ifU3014134 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3fpUu017190 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3fk5q017613 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6C214137; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07779-09; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4711714068; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:40:02 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, bzill@microsoft.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030821234002.7e95b9e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do > > anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. > > I agree. I am not worried about that if they are not in DNS. I am > worried about the case below. What about apps that need to pass their hosts' addresses to their peers? Where do they get those addresses in the first place? For a variety of reasons, DNS isn't a reliable way to find your own addresses. So you get them from the interfaces. Right now the obvious thing to do is to skip over any LL addresses that are assigned to your interfaces, in order to avoid giving LL addresses to your peers, but this only works if all participating hosts have routable addresses. If we start expecing apps to use LL addresses, all bets are off, and we are back to a NAT-like situtation where multiparty apps have to implement their own proxies, routing, and perhaps even addressing in order to function. And what happens when vendors start shipping support for LLMNR? Will getaddrinfo() (or other API used for DNS lookup) suddenly start doing LLMNR queries if it thinks that DNS is unreachable? Will apps that were formerly using getaddrinfo to do DNS queries then get exposed to LL addresses even though they don't work properly with those apps? Personally I have strong doubts that LLMNR is fixable. But if it's going to be deployed, LLMNR needs to stay entirely separate from DNS even to the point of having separate APIs. My fear is that the misguided temptation to try to make LLMNR transparent to apps by overloading existing interfaces will be too great. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:47:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3lcU3014253; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3lcGt014252; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3lYU3014242 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3iiV7002337 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3idW9008095 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:44:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7908943D; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:44:38 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:44:37 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F93@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUA From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 03:44:38.0632 (UTC) FILETIME=[B64F0680:01C3685F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M3lYU3014243 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, I agree with you. I am convinced the IETF cannot figure anything out that requires putting a stake in the ground because we debate for to many years now and to many won't compromise. I am not one of them I compromise all the time unless it is stupid (ergo like SL Addresses). I came here and asked a simple question. Look what happened. In industry this would be a no brainer and most would take your view is my opinion. Don't use these for applications. But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic principles because folks have their heals dug in on for some reason. But as I keep saying outside of here there is a body and group of people who do and will continue to influence IPv6 deployment with their input. And many listen to them that deploy and build networks. Common sense guidelines like don't use LLs on command lines for general applications is going to be a no brainer to get support for and not like fighting NATs. The reason NAT got away with what it did is the users got blind sided and then IETF got sucked into building a special NAT working group (which I objected to at Munich) and look at the mess we have out there today. At least to me its a complete mess. No it will not be the same because the users, industry, non-IETF forums, Press, et al are all smarter. Everyone was busy doing .dot.com and the web and figured just keep it running (without security too) and that all crashed and people are now very aware of the loss of e2e and are awake to listen not just to the IETF and vendors but lots of input. One of those inputs is going to be LLs must be used with caution, but they are still a very advanced feature not found in IPv4. We shall see though. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:26 PM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; hinden@iprg.nokia.com; > jgraessley@apple.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > I wish I could share your confidence in the wisdom of the > market. In my experience, the market does eventually learn > what works well and what doesn't, but for subtle things like > how addresses are used this can take years. And by the time > the market does learn, it's often too entrenched to change. > NAT is one example; email user agents that make it easy to > run executable attachments are another [*]. > > IETF can't stop vendors from doing harmful things. But we're > being irresponsible if we fail to discourage the harmful > things that we know about. > > Keith > > [*] The MIME standard even repeatedly warned about the > hazards of doing so, but that didn't stop unscrupulous mail > client vendors from deploying MUAs that > have become fertile breeding grounds for viruses. Why > nobody has sued them > for this is beyond me, because their negligence and refusal > to follow the standards has resulted in billions of dollars > of downtime (thus lost revenue) and support costs for > networks and end systems - even to those not using their > software.) > > > > Keith, > > > > That is not going to happen. The market will ignore such silliness. > > > > /jim > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > > > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:17 PM > > > To: Bob Hinden > > > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; jgraessley@apple.com; > ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > > > > > > I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. > > > IMHO it has the potential to do a great deal of harm. It is > > > even worse that NAT. > > > > > > Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find > > > that people will now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? > > > > > > If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less > > > functional than IPv4, why did we bother? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 20:53:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3rGU3014516; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M3rGtR014515; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M3r9U3014501 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M3oJUu020196 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M3l0ij020658 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873089498; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:46:59 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D178F@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNoX1Picao5r+iNS+qJ7cLufg79OwAAH/xQ From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 03:46:59.0398 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A363660:01C36860] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M3r9U3014502 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do > > > anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. > > > > I agree. I am not worried about that if they are not in DNS. I am > > worried about the case below. > > What about apps that need to pass their hosts' addresses to > their peers? > Where do they get those addresses in the first place? For a > variety of reasons, DNS isn't a reliable way to find your own > addresses. So you get them from the interfaces. Right now > the obvious thing to do is to skip over any LL addresses that > are assigned to your interfaces, in order to avoid giving LL > addresses to your peers, but this only works if all > participating hosts have routable addresses. If we start > expecing apps to use LL addresses, all bets are off, and we > are back to a NAT-like situtation where multiparty apps have > to implement their own proxies, routing, and perhaps even > addressing in order to function. Ouch your right. OK its even worse than I stated. LLs need controls. > > And what happens when vendors start shipping support for LLMNR? Will > getaddrinfo() (or other API used for DNS lookup) suddenly > start doing LLMNR queries if it thinks that DNS is > unreachable? Will apps that were formerly using getaddrinfo > to do DNS queries then get exposed to LL addresses even > though they don't work properly with those apps? Yes this will happen without controls for sure. > > Personally I have strong doubts that LLMNR is fixable. But > if it's going to be deployed, LLMNR needs to stay entirely > separate from DNS even to the point of having separate APIs. > My fear is that the misguided temptation to try to make LLMNR > transparent to apps by overloading existing interfaces will > be too great. Good point. We should tell LLMNR go build a new API. I agree. thanks /jim > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:06:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M46NU3015274; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M46NGL015266; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M46HU3015253 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M43RUu025132 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M43MDi008418 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:03:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EF914145; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29513-10; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E0814143; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:01:36 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822000136.5cd7e315.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F93@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F93@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:44:37 -0400 "Bound, Jim" wrote: > I came here and asked a simple question. Look what happened. In > industry this would be a no brainer and most would take your view is my > opinion. Don't use these for applications. > But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic principles > because folks have their heals dug in on for some reason. As far as I can tell, the "reason" is a basic failure to do engineering, or more specifically analysis. A small number of emperical tests with limited scope are taken as evidence that some practice or another will not cause problems for an extremely diverse Internet with 10**8 - 10**9 distinct users and 10**5 - 10**6 different apps. That's the networking equivalent of driving a single car over the original Tacoma Narrows Bridge and declaring it sound. (I cite the Tacoma Narrows Bridge because it was another case of ignoring the analysis that was done (of wind effects) - blind faith in the designer's reputation was deemed to make such analysis irrelevant.) Keith p.s. If you're not familiar with that bridge, see http://www.camerashoptacoma.com/mpegs/TacomaNarrowsBridge.mpg -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:08:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M48pU3015356; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M48pKF015355; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M48lU3015344 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M45wV7009601 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M45qRd019915 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:05:52 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvA= From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M48mU3015346 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Jim Bound wrote: > The reason NAT got away with what it did is the users got > blind sided and then IETF got sucked into building a special > NAT working group (which I objected to at Munich) and look > at the mess we have out there today. At least to me it's a > complete mess. I have to disagree with this. The reason NAT is popular is not because users are stupid. Users indeed are stupid (count me in, I use NAT) but they will continue using NAT as long as the pros outweigh the cons. It is too late to do anything about IPv4 NAT, but if we see IPv6 NAT happening it will be our collective failure to provide solutions that are better. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:19:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4IxU3015881; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4IxLb015880; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4ItU3015867 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4G5V7012766 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4G0Ih026197 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:16:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F284CA2C; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:15:59 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:15:58 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F94@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoYlWnHAr29y3+R++2xvMNzF3hDgAAKfMg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 04:15:59.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[1758A6D0:01C36864] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M4ItU3015868 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, I agree yet again on your scaling well put statements below. I thought of that and between the lines when I said "how does the user know which interface" I was really addressing the scalability issue. But awhile ago I came to realize that the only time that argument works is when it is used as filerbuster to hold up engineers work in the IETF and I have seen it used on a few specs. A good example I gave up on was router preferences for IPv6 I argued we had to have them but got shot down based on ones reputation. I think everyone one of us do router preferences with ND in implementation as Hosts today and just got it done. We could have done so much more with ND had we looked at router preferences but all at that time in the IPv6 world were anti-hosts knowing anything about IPv6 and I believe anti-servers for operations (e.g. DHCPv6, Service Location) and why we still have not completed DNS Discovery in the IETF. So I gave up on using scalable hypothesis in debate. What I tried here was simple common sense with some network diagrams and such. Then folks started screaming "but Jim this ipv6 advantage". Of course it is but not for applications use. But LLs will not scale. P.S. the one that still drives me nuts is when someone tells me I have a packet built in my kernel where the source has less scope than the destination address, just send it anyway? Don't get it and never will :--). /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Moore [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:02 AM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu; hinden@iprg.nokia.com; > jgraessley@apple.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:44:37 -0400 > "Bound, Jim" wrote: > > > I came here and asked a simple question. Look what happened. In > > industry this would be a no brainer and most would take > your view is > > my opinion. Don't use these for applications. But it has > turned into > > another absurd avoidance of basic principles because folks > have their > > heals dug in on for some reason. > > As far as I can tell, the "reason" is a basic failure to do > engineering, or more specifically analysis. A small number > of emperical tests with limited scope are taken as evidence > that some practice or another will not cause problems for an > extremely diverse Internet with 10**8 - 10**9 distinct users > and 10**5 - 10**6 different apps. That's the networking > equivalent of driving a single car over the original Tacoma > Narrows Bridge and declaring it sound. > > (I cite the Tacoma Narrows Bridge because it was another case > of ignoring the analysis that was done (of wind effects) - > blind faith in the designer's reputation was deemed to make > such analysis irrelevant.) > > Keith > > p.s. If you're not familiar with that bridge, > see http://www.camerashoptacoma.com/mpegs/TacomaNarrowsBridge.mpg > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:23:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4NeU3016206; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4Ndpr016205; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4NaU3016198 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4KkV7014344 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4KfRd028434 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3845) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:20:46 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:19:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c36864$9c93dc20$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F93@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bound, Jim wrote: > I came here and asked a simple question. Look what happened. > In industry this would be a no brainer and most would take > your view is my opinion. Don't use these for applications. That is one opinion. In reality industry will build what customers are paying for. If your customers are not demanding network applications that work without any infrastructure, you will not need to support this. > But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic > principles because folks have their heals dug in on for some reason. Look carefully before you speak. From another perspective, those who are insisting that IPv6 not be capable of anything more than the limitations of IPv4 are the ones with their heals dug in. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:25:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4P1U3016290; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4P1Yl016289; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4OvU3016276 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4M7Uu001942 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4Idij014800 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0552C51A; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:18:38 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:18:38 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D1794@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvAAAJH9UA== From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 04:18:38.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[7641FC00:01C36864] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M4OvU3016278 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk 100% agree. I was stating the tremor before IPv4 NAT actually happened not why they are using it. I also don't think users are stupid but maybe far to trusting of vendors and the IETF like MObile IPv6 WG was of IPsec :--) /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:06 AM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > Jim Bound wrote: > > The reason NAT got away with what it did is the users got > blind sided > > and then IETF got sucked into building a special NAT working group > > (which I objected to at Munich) and look at the mess we > have out there > > today. At least to me it's a complete mess. > > I have to disagree with this. The reason NAT is popular is > not because users are stupid. Users indeed are stupid (count > me in, I use NAT) but they will continue using NAT as long as > the pros outweigh the cons. It is too late to do anything > about IPv4 NAT, but if we see IPv6 NAT happening it will be > our collective failure to provide solutions that are better. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:28:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4SNU3016532; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4SN8E016529; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4SJU3016521 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4PUV7015946 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4PP5q013838 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:25:24 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvAAAJH9UAAAJx1g From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M4SKU3016522 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, > Jim Bound wrote: > 100% agree. I was stating the tremor before IPv4 NAT actually > happened not why they are using it. I also don't think users > are stupid but maybe far to trusting of vendors and the IETF > like MObile IPv6 WG was of IPsec :--) What drives me nuts with you is that although you have a far-better-than-average understanding on how the market works you have failed to realize that users ultimately drive the market and these users don't actually give a hoot to LLs but do to SLs. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:30:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4UsU3016758; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4UsgU016753; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4UlU3016738 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4RwV7016827 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4RqRd002969 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA15714052; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02234-01; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9078140F5; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:26:06 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822002606.5f7272a1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <001401c36864$9c93dc20$63124104@eagleswings> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F93@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <001401c36864$9c93dc20$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic > > principles because folks have their heals dug in on for some reason. > > Look carefully before you speak. From another perspective, those who are > insisting that IPv6 not be capable of anything more than the limitations of > IPv4 are the ones with their heals dug in. nobody is insisting on this. what some people are insisting on is that IPv6 support *their* favorite capability, and sometimes it's hard to tell whether they care if this insistence harms other valuable capabilities. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:34:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4YlU3017096; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4YkhS017093; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4YgU3017076 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4VqUu005560 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4VkIh017120 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:31:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6C075B4; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:31:46 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:31:45 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoZMQ74xJ1YYlqRMKBrWEV1G59YgAADNmw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Tony Hain" , "Keith Moore" Cc: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 04:31:46.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[4BC17B70:01C36866] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M4YgU3017077 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Bound, Jim wrote: > > I came here and asked a simple question. Look what happened. > > In industry this would be a no brainer and most would take > > your view is my opinion. Don't use these for applications. > > That is one opinion. In reality industry will build what > customers are paying for. If your customers are not demanding > network applications that work without any infrastructure, > you will not need to support this. I know a few of those too and it will happen today with state at the user level and command line interface yes. With the local-unicast-global address problem is gone too and LLs are not required. They can be annouced on ad hoc net (my definition previously stated) per the draft too without a router via NAs and NSs by user override command line interface which is backup to all addrconf essentially in IPv6, but then ND, DAD, NUD, et al can be used to support them as viable addresses avoiding the multilink problem of LLs. > > > But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic > > principles because folks have their heals dug in on for some reason. > > Look carefully before you speak. From another perspective, > those who are insisting that IPv6 not be capable of anything > more than the limitations of IPv4 are the ones with their > heals dug in. To the contrary. These proponents want to use LLs for what they were mean't to do very well in an IPv6 network and avoid their limitations where appropriate. Not just support a free-for-all with mission critical operational networks out of convenience. /jim > > Tony > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 21:43:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4h7U3017793; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M4h7uj017792; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M4h3U3017780 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M4eDUu008624 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M4e8Rd010324 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776A5B483; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:40:07 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:40:06 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F96@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvAAAJH9UAAAJx1gAABlh6A= From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Michel Py" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 04:40:07.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[76563FF0:01C36867] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M4h3U3017784 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel, I do know this. But I am here to make folks like you totally miserable :--). But seriously. When the parts get built as engineers we have the responsibility to support the technical criteria for what the user don't see in implementation and architecture. In fact they trust us to do that. And incorrect use of LLs I strongly believe can hurt users as an engineer/architect and SLs are well.............you now how I feel about them as bad approach to solve what I think finally Bob Hinden has solved with link-unicast-global draft. That I can live with not SLs. What was my point of compromise for SLs in that past discussion before this wise WG consensus deprecated them? Ok age happens I will respond :--). PUT CONTROLS ON THEM SO THEY DON'T EVER LEAVE A SITE AND AGREE TO THE RULES FOR THE SITE BORDER ROUTERS. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......folks wanted to leave that open "just in case" ergo support for free-for-all (I was never sure just in case for what) and I will stop there. There are times we need to leave things open ended SLs or LLs are not one of them in my opinion. So this has nothing to do with users we are behind the wall here. /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel Py [mailto:michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:25 AM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > Jim, > > > Jim Bound wrote: > > 100% agree. I was stating the tremor before IPv4 NAT > actually happened > > not why they are using it. I also don't think users are stupid but > > maybe far to trusting of vendors and the IETF like MObile > IPv6 WG was > > of IPsec :--) > > What drives me nuts with you is that although you have a > far-better-than-average understanding on how the market works > you have failed to realize that users ultimately drive the > market and these users don't actually give a hoot to LLs but > do to SLs. > > Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 22:04:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M54hU3018611; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M54hFm018610; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M54dU3018603 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M51oV7028866 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M51hRd021953 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3488) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:01:50 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:00:42 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c3686a$57a1cef0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M54eU3018604 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bound, Jim wrote: > I know a few of those too and it will happen today with state > at the user level and command line interface yes. With the > local-unicast-global address problem is gone too and LLs are > not required. They can be annouced on ad hoc net (my > definition previously > stated) per the draft too without a router via NAs and NSs by > user override command line interface which is backup to all > addrconf essentially in IPv6, but then ND, DAD, NUD, et al > can be used to support them as viable addresses avoiding the > multilink problem of LLs. So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking the barrage of gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from the marine he just bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are pseudo-random) 32 hex characters for both the src & dst. Or you are going to answer all the support calls to Apple, MS, Palm, ... when Joe-sixpack meets his buddy and try to connect their 802.11 capable devices in ad-hoc mode to share a file. Get real. This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't want to make the scenarios work. After-all they don't work in IPv4, so they must not be really needed, right??? > > To the contrary. These proponents want to use LLs for what > they were mean't to do very well in an IPv6 network and avoid > their limitations where appropriate. Not just support a > free-for-all with mission critical operational networks out > of convenience. I admit I am tired, but I can't tell what you are saying. People want to solve real world problems, and to a very large degree they don't know or care how it works. Our job is to provide the tools so the vendors can build interoperable products that solve the end user problem. Unlicensed wireless and other non-traditional plug-n-play link types are changing the way people expect their devices and applications to work. The application developers that continue to insist it is 1985, where the world is a single global flat routing space, will not be able to deliver products that solve problems in this millennium. Those that account for the reality of the network randomness will find a larger customer base. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 22:15:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M5FPU3018941; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M5FOCX018940; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M5FKU3018933 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M5CUV7002340 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M5CPRd027874 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4139) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:12:32 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c3686b$d5743ce0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822002606.5f7272a1.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M5FKU3018934 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > But it has turned into another absurd avoidance of basic > > > principles because folks have their heals dug in on for > some reason. > > > > Look carefully before you speak. From another perspective, > those who > > are insisting that IPv6 not be capable of anything more than the > > limitations of IPv4 are the ones with their heals dug in. > > nobody is insisting on this. 'I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6.', as a response to a vendor that was describing where they find value in general app use of LL is being obstructionist. > what some people are insisting > on is that IPv6 support *their* favorite capability, and > sometimes it's hard to tell whether they care if this > insistence harms other valuable capabilities. Not to speak for Josh, but I suspect his favorite capability is delivering a product that a customer is willing to pay for, and it doesn't cost him an arm-and-a-leg in continuing support. There is no harm to other capabilities that I can see. Just to the mistaken perception that the world is a single flat routing space ... Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 22:17:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M5HNU3019012; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M5HN5o019011; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M5HJU3019004 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M5ETV7003029 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M5EOIh008801 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:14:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7M520j9020298; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:02:02 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:46:37 +0530 Message-ID: <000001c3686c$954946f0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D16A1@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M5HJU3019005 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The solution that will work for now is make a statement in the > IETF and in industry IPv6 implementation documentation that > link-local addresses SHOULD not be used as an IPv6 address > type by applications. That link-local addresses SHOULD not be > included in the DNS. That link-local adddresses SHOULD be > restricted to IETF protocols on Hosts to perform Neighbor > Discovery, Stateless Address Configuration, DHCPv6, or other > operation protocols to bring a Host up on a network. The bottom > line is link-local address are not usable for applications. > > Would like to hear what my colleagues in IETF IPv6 WG think > about this issue? The emails on this subject have been a revelation. I too think that we should have a statement from the IETF about the pitfalls of using LL's by applications. Is anyone working on such a statement? If not, I can volunteer to be an editor...but beware I will need a lot of support from this group. :-) CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 21 23:40:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M6eHU3020517; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M6eHGm020516; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M6eEU3020509 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M6bOV7027789 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M6bI5q024656 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:37:22 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.155 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:37:19 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.47.232]) by inet-hub-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:37:17 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795BD@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications thread-index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wgAD5VIgAEp595AAEwTyIAA5W+kQAAYyCDA= From: "Brian Zill" To: "Bound, Jim" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2003 06:37:17.0483 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4AA3FB0:01C36877] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7M6eEU3020510 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Jim, I'm still not sure I understand your position? > > I'm not arguing that general-purpose apps should > > do anything special to support link-local addresses. > > For the most part, I doubt they'll ever see them, > > since link-local addresses won't be in the DNS. > > Exactly my point in last mail to Itojun. > > > > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do > > anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. > > I agree. I am not worried about that if they are not > in DNS. To me, this means that the IETF doesn't have to take any new action on this issue. So I'm not sure what it is you are advocating? Let me try to clarify my position. All I'm saying is that if an app works fine with link-locals, and that's all the user has, why not let the user use that app? In situations where there is no router (which is what I meant by "ad-hoc" by the way -- a no infrastructure situation: could be one link or many links), all the user has is link-local addresses. If I'm out in the park working on my IPv6 laptop and a friend drops by with another IPv6 laptop, shouldn't we be able to string a firewire (or reversing Ethernet) cable between our two machines and allow say telnet to work from one to the other? And if I was dictating into my laptop via my IPv6 Bluetooth microphone before my friend dropped by, shouldn't that continue to function even after we plug in the firewire (or Ethernet) cable? IPv4 deals okay today with the telnet scenario above. There are potential problems with IPv4 if you throw in the second link (represented by the bluetooth microphone in the above scenario) since collisions could occur in the 169.254/16 space, and IPv4 doesn't have a scope-id in the sockaddr_in to differentiate the links. IPv6 solves that problem. This is a big selling point for IPv6. Sure, there are an extremely small percentage of apps that do referrals, or otherwise won't work with link-locals. That doesn't mean we should penalize the vast majority of apps that work just fine. If we tell the authors of telnet (to stick to that one example) that they have to add special code to watch out for users typing in link-local addresses, and then refuse to use them when the user does so (even though the app would otherwise have worked just fine), what have we gained? I think we'll have gained an upset user who will go back to IPv4. --Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 01:06:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M86qU3021742; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M86qnZ021741; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M86kU3021734 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M83tUu010325 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7M83oDi003216 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:03:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h7M83owh015854 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:03:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr04.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h7M83WDd026578 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:03:34 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7M83jcB027901 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:03:45 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F45CE61.22EA850E@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:03:45 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> <20030821155119.62c934cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > Some apps care about having consistent view of addressing across all > locations in the network. The trouble is that while filters exist this will NEVER be true, in the general case. Having multiple addresses per host confuses the issue as well. Similarly, the arguments about rescinding 'scope' are bogus. Every address is functionally scoped. In an extreme model, 'scope' can even vary dynamically as (say) links fail and recover. What we really need to consider is: * Are there sensible ways of communicating 'scope' information of addresses to applications? (I expect the answer is 'not easily' for the general case). * Is there benefit in having classes of addresses with inherent scope limitations (eg link-local, local)? Note that any application CAN discover whether it is within the functional scope of any given address - it tries to use it. If not done cleverly, this can cause significant delays and/or traffic, but the option is certainly there. In closing, three guidelines / work items: * Applications should not assume that all addresses are equal. * Applications should not assume that addresses can be forwarded at-will, unless provided with additional (configured?) information that would support this assumption. * Applications that do not care to do their own address management need a higher level abstraction to the current sockets and getaddrinfo APIs. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 02:20:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M9KkU3022791; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 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http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 02:42:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M9geU3023508; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7M9geVv023507; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7M9gZU3023497 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7M9djUu010289 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:39:45 -0700 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[skipped application/octet-stream attachment] IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (6.70 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100 (1.2 points) BODY: Razor2 gives a spam confidence level between 91 and 100 [cf: 100] MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE (0.1 points) RAW: Message includes Microsoft executable program RAZOR2_CHECK (0.9 points) Listed in Razor2, see http://razor.sf.net/ MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 (0.9 points) 'Message-Id' was added by a relay (3) MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. 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-------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F45E59A.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 03:13:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MADrU3024735; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MADqTs024734; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MADnU3024727 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MAAwV7004470 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MAAr5q011372 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7MAAp8s027961 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (rtp-vpn2-126.cisco.com [10.82.240.126]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id ABT03139; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@funnel.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:10:47 -0400 To: From: Ralph Droms Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience In-Reply-To: <001501c3686a$57a1cef0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 10:00 PM 8/21/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: >This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. >The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't >want to make the scenarios work. After-all they don't work in IPv4, so they >must not be really needed, right??? Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL will work while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience with IPv4LL has been uniformly bad; I've never intentionally used an IPv4LL address and the automatic assignment of an IPv4LL address has on several (many?) occasions silently interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am happy to hear success stories about IPv4LL. I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario work". I don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the scenario you described. We can assign IPv4LL addresses today in a one-link, no router ad-hoc network. But we have to enter the addresses manually and those addresses get in the way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. What's different with IPv6LL? - Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 04:23:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBNMU3025698; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MBNMVu025697; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBNIU3025689 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MBKRUu009552 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MBKMIh004279 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:20:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CCE14166; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27719-07; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7B514031; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:18:36 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822071836.14edaf07.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <001501c3686a$57a1cef0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <001501c3686a$57a1cef0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking the barrage of > gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from the marine he just > bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are pseudo-random) 32 hex > characters for both the src & dst. Or you are going to answer all the > support calls to Apple, MS, Palm, ... when Joe-sixpack meets his buddy and > try to connect their 802.11 capable devices in ad-hoc mode to share a file. > Get real. This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. > The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't > want to make the scenarios work. nope, the thing that's holding this back is the obstinate views of those who insist, in the absence of compelling analysis to the contrary, that LL addressing works just fine for this case. by all means let's make ad hoc networks work reliably. that means considering a wide range of apps, and the boundary cases where some machines on the net are in ad hoc mode while others are connected, and ad hoc networks that extend beyond a single link. don't just throw something together, claim that it works, and ship it in products. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 04:24:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBOwU3025718; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MBOwvn025717; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBOsU3025710 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MBM3Uu010003 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MBLv5q025000 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F3714158; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27325-13; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA331402E; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:20:12 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822072012.72429300.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <001601c3686b$d5743ce0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822002606.5f7272a1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <001601c3686b$d5743ce0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 'I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6.', as a response > to a vendor that was describing where they find value in general app use of > LL is being obstructionist. no, shipping code that does this is being obstructionist to apps that don't work under those conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 04:34:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBY4U3025993; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MBY40r025992; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBXxU3025982 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MBV8Uu013006 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MBV2W9008274 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:31:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8755E1416A; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29518-03; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DD614156; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:29:17 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Brian Zill" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030822072917.38fe7347.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795BD@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <5F102023B0019C4494591C98407AE2E20795BD@RED-MSG-32.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Let me try to clarify my position. All I'm saying is that if an app > works fine with link-locals, and that's all the user has, why not let > the user use that app? Nothing wrong with that. Where I draw the line is encouraging use of LL as a general means of providing ad hoc network service, or claiming that it's a general-purpose feature rather than a fortuitous accident that happens to work for some apps. > Sure, there are an extremely small percentage of apps that do referrals, > or otherwise won't work with link-locals. You're projecting v4 assumptions onto a v6 world, and today's assumptions onto tomorrow's world. The internet keeps changing. Trying to impose the limitations of today's IPv4 apps onto tomorrow's IPv6 apps is as bad as insisting that IPv4 have all of the limitaitons of IPv6. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 04:39:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBdHU3026203; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MBdHXe026202; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MBdCU3026192 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MBaLUu014858 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MBaGDi020525 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:36:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B5D14045; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29396-13; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C346813FE5; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:34:30 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822073430.361b2468.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F45CE61.22EA850E@motorola.com> References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> <20030821155119.62c934cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F45CE61.22EA850E@motorola.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Some apps care about having consistent view of addressing across all > > locations in the network. > > The trouble is that while filters exist this will NEVER be true, in the > general case. filters don't mess up addressing. ambiguous addresses do. > In closing, three guidelines / work items: > > * Applications should not assume that all addresses are equal. applications should not have to know which addresses are more equal than others. or to state this better, it's fine if apps simply avoid passing some kinds of addresses around as long as they can easily tell which ones to pass around and which ones to not pass around. it's not fine if there's not an easily-identifiable, portable address available for every host that is expected to work with an app. > * Applications should not assume that addresses can be forwarded at-will, > unless provided with additional (configured?) information that would support > this assumption. applications should be able to forward addresses to other hosts; this is an essential capability. that doesn't mean that they can expect those addresses to be usable from remote locations. but if they're not usable, the reason should be either network failure or administrative prohibition - in other words, something that the app should not be expected to work around. > * Applications that do not care to do their own address management need a > higher level abstraction to the current sockets and getaddrinfo APIs. not sure what you mean by this. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 09:31:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MGVIU3000109; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MGVIYs000108; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MGVEU3000097 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MGSNV7000562 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MGSHZu014501 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4472) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:28:24 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Ralph Droms'" , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:26:27 -0700 Message-ID: <00bc01c368ca$22d961a0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MGVEU3000099 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph Droms wrote: > Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL > will work while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience > with IPv4LL has been uniformly bad; I've never intentionally > used an IPv4LL address and the automatic assignment of an > IPv4LL address has on several (many?) occasions silently > interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use > greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am > happy to hear success stories about IPv4LL. Not having been there when your interference issues occurred, I can only guess that they were related to the default IPv4 perspective that an interface only has one dynamic address at a time. In that environment it takes explicit effort (user initiated or stack timer) to change the available address. There is no such restriction in an IPv6 environment, so the existence of an IPv6 LL can't interfere with global connectivity. In fact it is much more likely that intermittent global access (such as changing radio attachment points) would interfere with the stablility of an app that is running locally. > > I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario > work". I don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the > scenario you described. We can assign IPv4LL addresses today > in a one-link, no router ad-hoc network. But we have to > enter the addresses manually and those addresses get in the > way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. > What's different with IPv6LL? There is no 'get in the way' limitation. Simultaneous support for multiple dynamically acquired addresses is a major advantage of IPv6, as it enables scenarios that are simply not possible in the IPv4 model of a single address at a time. What this bumps into here is the fallacious assumption by some app developers that the routing space is globally flat, so if by chance there is more than one address, every available address can be treated equally. This is not a real problem in the market when only their apps fail, but it is a real problem when they try to prevent other app developers from taking advantage of the opportunities through limitations in the standards. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 09:52:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MGqeU3000518; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MGqeu9000517; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MGqbU3000510 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MGnkV7013532 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MGncZu006817 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3344) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:49:46 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" , Cc: , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:47:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00c001c368cd$1e5817e0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822073430.361b2468.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MGqbU3000511 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > or to state this better, it's fine if apps simply avoid > passing some kinds of addresses around as long as they can > easily tell which ones to pass around and which ones to not > pass around. Yet you want to ban apps from recognizing the defined flags FE80, FEC0, FC00, ... I am having a hard time following your logic. > it's not fine if there's not an > easily-identifiable, portable address available for every > host that is expected to work with an app. 2::/3 ??? Or are you talking about portable as in PI? > > > * Applications should not assume that addresses can be forwarded > > at-will, unless provided with additional (configured?) information > > that would support this assumption. > > applications should be able to forward addresses to other > hosts; this is an essential capability. that doesn't mean > that they can expect those addresses to be usable from remote > locations. but if they're not usable, the reason should be > either network failure or administrative prohibition - in > other words, something that the app should not be expected to > work around. So there should only be a single address per host, or all addresses must have exactly the same policy and reachability characteristics??? This is the limitation of the IPv4 world. There is nothing preventing an app from continuing down that path. Unfortunately there are some who want to preclude anyone else from taking a different path. > > > * Applications that do not care to do their own address management > > need a higher level abstraction to the current sockets and > getaddrinfo > > APIs. > > not sure what you mean by this. Not to put words in Andrew's mouth, but I suspect he meant 'if it is more complex than the app wants to deal with, let the stack take care of it'. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 10:23:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHNgU3001004; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MHNg22001003; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHNbU3000996 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MHKkUu013219 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MHKfK4002838 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:20:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B5113FEA; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28679-01; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA2813FAD; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:20:39 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822132039.10e5cb00.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00c001c368cd$1e5817e0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822073430.361b2468.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00c001c368cd$1e5817e0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > > or to state this better, it's fine if apps simply avoid > > passing some kinds of addresses around as long as they can > > easily tell which ones to pass around and which ones to not > > pass around. > > Yet you want to ban apps from recognizing the defined flags FE80, > FEC0, FC00, ... more precisely, I want to discourage the expectation that apps can make do with *just* these. and if apps have more portable addresses available to them, why should apps deal with these at all? > > it's not fine if there's not an > > easily-identifiable, portable address available for every > > host that is expected to work with an app. > > 2::/3 ??? Or are you talking about portable as in PI? portable as in uniquely identifying every host that is participating in the app, and being usable to reach any of those hosts from any of those hosts if such communication is permitted. > > > * Applications should not assume that addresses can be forwarded > > > at-will, unless provided with additional (configured?) information > > > > > > that would support this assumption. > > > > applications should be able to forward addresses to other > > hosts; this is an essential capability. that doesn't mean > > that they can expect those addresses to be usable from remote > > locations. but if they're not usable, the reason should be > > either network failure or administrative prohibition - in > > other words, something that the app should not be expected to > > work around. > > So there should only be a single address per host, or all addresses > must have exactly the same policy and reachability characteristics??? more or less. I'm still trying to formulate a precise statement of this that accomodates renumbering, multihoming, local addressing, ad hoc networks, etc. > This is the limitation of the IPv4 world. it's not a limitation, it's a feature. and while it was never mandated in the v4 world, having multiple interfaces per host turned out to cause problems when it mattered which address you used, so people tended to avoid doing so except in special cases. > There is nothing preventing > an app from continuing down that path. Unfortunately there are some > who want to preclude anyone else from taking a different path. some people don't want a predictable environment for applications; or they want to limit the kinds of apps that can be supported. one could conclude that they want to harm the ability of the Internet to support new apps, or to reduce the size of the market for new apps. I prefer to think of them as just naive and/or obtuse. > > > * Applications that do not care to do their own address management > > > > > > need a higher level abstraction to the current sockets and > > getaddrinfo > > > APIs. > > > > not sure what you mean by this. > > Not to put words in Andrew's mouth, but I suspect he meant 'if it is > more complex than the app wants to deal with, let the stack take care > of it'. the important thing is giving apps a model they can work with. but it's not clear you can solve these problems in the stack any better than you can in the app. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 10:38:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHcYU3001265; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MHcXV6001264; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHcTU3001254 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MHZcV7011077 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MHWHij021038 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:32:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECCA1418F; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29785-11; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDFA1418E; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:32:16 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822133216.5405ac17.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00bc01c368ca$22d961a0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> <00bc01c368ca$22d961a0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > What this bumps into here is the fallacious assumption by some > app developers that the routing space is globally flat, so if by > chance there is more than one address, every available address can be > treated equally. Well, duh. This is the way the Internet was designed to work. The Internet was specifically designed to not require apps to know about the topology of the network. Now if we can improve service for apps by substituting addresses while still providing the same functionality, and if we can make this reasonably transparent to apps, that's worth considering. But none of the proposals for using scoped addresses manage to do this. Too many people seem to forget that the purpose of the Internet is to support a diverse set of applications. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 10:54:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHs8U3001814; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MHs7uL001813; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHs2U3001792 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MHpBV7021117 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MHp3Zu005700 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4110) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:50:54 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:48:51 -0700 Message-ID: <00c201c368d5$a6189ee0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822133216.5405ac17.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MHs3U3001793 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > Too many people seem to forget that the purpose of the > Internet is to support a diverse set of applications. Yet you are in fact the one insisting on limiting that diversity. There is a clear flag for the apps you seem to be focused on (ie: not equal FE80 or FEC0 or FC00), but you want to preclude anyone else from being able to use those for different kinds of apps. Instead of preventing all apps from using them, it makes more sense to put a heath warning that any apps that pass around addresses to third parties should not use these. Anything beyond that is precluding diversity. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 10:55:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHtMU3001860; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MHtLis001859; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MHtIU3001852 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MHqRV7022030 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MHqK5w026992 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7MHsbBu024419 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:54:38 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7MHsaI1024418 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:54:36 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] From: Mika Liljeberg To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 22 Aug 2003 20:54:36 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk As there appears to be some opposition to using IPv6LL for application level connectivity in ad hoc situations, I would like to ask the WG what is considered the best alternative and why people think that: 1) Use whatever routable address it may have configured earlier? A node that finds itself in an ad-hoc situation might continue using it's PA address for ad-hoc connectivity. This avoids having multiple addresses per interface which might confuse applications, but there are some problems as well. Unless the address is permanent it will eventually expire and leave the node without an address. The PA address assignment is also accompanied with topology dependent routing information (on-link prefix, default routers, any other routes) each of which have their own associated expiration times. These might prevent the node from communicating with other nodes in the ad-hoc context, causing it to send packets towards a non-existent router instead. 2) Use non-routable PI? A non-routable PI address could be permanently assigned to a node. This avoids some of the problems with the associated routing information, as an appropriate on-link route could be permanently installed as well. Of course this isn't all that different from using link-local addresses, but at least the address would be unambiguous (with some probability). Non-(globally)routable PI's might be a good choise for routed ad-hoc networks as well. 3) Use something else? What exactly? Pros and cons? Our customer base is of the type that doesn't appreciate having to jog the switch in order to make the thing start, so requiring any manual intervention from the user is out of the question. The devices have to be able to transition between connected and ad-hoc states quickly, without undue fuss and with absolutely no guidance from the user. Having applications sometimes break because the necessary connectivity is lost is understood and acceptable. This must not happen due to IP layer problems, however, if the necessary link layer connections exist. I hope to see some constructive suggestions. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:09:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MI9OU3002373; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MI9Ond002372; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MI9JU3002359 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MI6TV7001603 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MI6N5w011313 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDC0141BF; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06802-14; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19546141A4; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:06:21 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822140621.78952f03.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00c201c368d5$a6189ee0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822133216.5405ac17.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00c201c368d5$a6189ee0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > > Too many people seem to forget that the purpose of the > > Internet is to support a diverse set of applications. > > Yet you are in fact the one insisting on limiting that diversity. uh, no. you're the one insisting on burdening apps with unnecessary complexity and limiting the kinds of apps that the network can support by encouraging networks to misuse scoped addresses. > There is a clear flag for the apps you seem to be focused on (ie: not > equal FE80 or FEC0 or FC00), but you want to preclude anyone else from > being able to use those for different kinds of apps. you know, I'm really fed up with your misrepresenting my positions. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:14:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIERU3002541; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MIEQCo002540; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIENU3002533 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MIBWUu017381 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIBQZu026964 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3048) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:11:34 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:09:29 -0700 Message-ID: <00c501c368d8$88761310$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822132039.10e5cb00.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MIENU3002534 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > Yet you want to ban apps from recognizing the defined flags FE80, > > FEC0, FC00, ... > > more precisely, I want to discourage the expectation that > apps can make > do with *just* these. and if apps have more portable addresses > available to them, why should apps deal with these at all? Some apps should simply ignore them. Some apps would like to leverage them to solve problems that are not possible when limited to a single globally reachable address. > ... > > > applications should be able to forward addresses to other > > > hosts; this is an essential capability. that doesn't mean > > > that they can expect those addresses to be usable from remote > > > locations. but if they're not usable, the reason should be > > > either network failure or administrative prohibition - in > > > other words, something that the app should not be expected to > > > work around. > > > > So there should only be a single address per host, or all addresses > > must have exactly the same policy and reachability > characteristics??? > > more or less. I'm still trying to formulate a precise > statement of this that accomodates renumbering, multihoming, > local addressing, ad hoc networks, etc. In other words we should not allow IPv6 to have any more capability than IPv4 with more bits.?.?. > > > This is the limitation of the IPv4 world. > > it's not a limitation, it's a feature. Ok, call it a feature, but it is one that we need to leave behind because it constrains the kinds of problems we can solve. > and while it was > never mandated in the v4 world, having multiple interfaces > per host turned out to cause problems when it mattered which > address you used, so people tended to avoid doing so except > in special cases. Look around, those special cases are becoming the norm. Portable devices have multiple different interface types, and the reachability characteristics of those interfaces is very different. By insisting on a flat space, you preclude the ability to have the flags above available to sort out which interfaces might be appropriate for which uses. > > > There is nothing preventing > > an app from continuing down that path. Unfortunately there are some > > who want to preclude anyone else from taking a different path. > > some people don't want a predictable environment for > applications; No, they want a predictable way for apps to deal with the reality of the underlying network. > or they want to limit the kinds of apps that > can be supported. No, they want to expand the kind of apps to include those that are not possible with a monolithic view of the world. > one could conclude that they want to harm > the ability of the Internet to support new apps, or to reduce > the size of the market for new apps. I prefer to think of > them as just naive and/or obtuse. One could also conclude that IPv6 won't reach its full potential until a new generation of app developers are free to explore the space beyond the boundaries of 20 year old technology restrictions. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:21:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MILQU3002968; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MILQ6g002967; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MILMU3002960 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MIIVV7009563 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIINZu004304 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3469) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:18:31 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:16:26 -0700 Message-ID: <00c801c368d9$8093aee0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822140621.78952f03.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > you know, I'm really fed up with your misrepresenting my positions. I am not trying to misrepresent them. From my perspective, they are frequently circular and self contradictory so I am trying to sort them out. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:42:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIgTU3003847; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MIgTib003846; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIgPU3003839 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MIdYUu005899 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIdT5w014677 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221CA14145; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15221-10; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC1514003; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:39:27 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Mika Liljeberg Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Message-Id: <20030822143927.737d8992.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> References: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > As there appears to be some opposition to using IPv6LL for application > level connectivity in ad hoc situations, I would like to ask the WG > what is considered the best alternative and why people think that: It's important to analyze two cases separately: 1. The case where a network is assembled "ad hoc", i.e. with no prior arrangement and no management 2. The case where external connectivity is down but we want the apps to keep working You may have only one of these in mind, but it's been my experience that people often have both of them in mind when they argue about ad hoc networks, or they may want the same mechanism to address both cases. That might be a perfectly reasonable desire (especially if hosts cannot tell the difference between these two cases), but the analysis needs to be done separately to make sure that both cases work. Also, the question of what kind of address to use begs a number of other questions - no answer makes sense without some set of supporting discipline within hosts or apps, or in some cases, without support from such infrastructure as might exist (e.g. bridges or routers) in the ad hoc network. So by attempting to answer the question one exposes oneself to criticism about the missing pieces, which weren't part of the question in the first place. Frankly I haven't seen any set of answers to this problem that seemed thoroughly worked out, and I'm not even entirely sure that there's a satisfactory answer. But I haven't tried to follow every group working on some piece of this problem. Now I'll actually assert that - at least for hosts that have wireless interfaces - the two cases above are distinct, and that it's reasonable to provide different answers for those two cases - for the simple reason that you don't necessarily want a host trying to talk to every wireless network that happens to be within reach. The reason is that the host has no basis for trusting those networks to deliver its packets or to not send forged packets to it. And for wired interfaces you are required to perform some manual action - to at least plug in a cable - to expect it to work at all. So I conclude that class #1 ad hoc networks can reasonably be treated differently from class #2 networks. For the class 1 case, a randomly generated PI address would be appropriate. As I imagine it, each link would elect a randomly chosen PI prefix, and all nodes on that link would use that prefix. Routers would learn about PI prefixes and advertise routes for them on the ad hoc network (but if the network were then connected to the public network the border routers would filter such routes). If connectivity to the public Internet subsequently became available on that link, the PI prefix might be deprecated in favor of a PA prefix, but it might still make sense to use it with prefix substitution (as in draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-aa-00.txt) For the class 2 case, it would make some sense for the network to continue using the last prefix(es) assigned to it; this would be the least dirsuptive thing for apps and allow for smooth recovery when the connectivity were regained. If the local router(s) go down then RAs stop being advertised; so in order to continue using those addresses hosts would have to be able to make assumptions about the meaning of the absence of RA without any indication that the old prefix was deprecated, and to have a way to inform other (new) hosts on the link about the prefix being used. If the routers stayed up, they could keep advertising RA for that prefix, even though they lacked external connectivity. An alternative would be to deprecate the external addresses in favor of a PI address of some kind, either randomly chosen or one pre-arranged for use in that network. In either case what you want to do is to retain the ability to use the old addresses for a reasonable amount of time (we need to specify what is "reasonable" for this - taking both ad hoc networking and renumbering into account). It's clear that IPv6 wasn't designed with due consideration for ad hoc networks, and that some changes will be needed to adequately support such networks. Again, if anyone has worked out all of the details, I haven't seen it, and I certainly don't claim to have done so myself. However I do think it's necessary to work out these details, and to make the changes necessary, rather than simply assuming that one can "just use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:58:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIwjU3004335; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MIwjwi004334; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIwgU3004327 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MItpV7001406 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIqfij020163 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:52:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIqKfR015398 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:52:15 -0700 Received: from [17.202.43.251] (graejo5.apple.com [17.202.43.251]) by scv3.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIqM0F015389 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v588) In-Reply-To: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joshua Graessley Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:52:45 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.588) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 6:56 , Keith Moore wrote: >> Applications that perform referrals may fail, but I'm not aware of any >> of these that are currently shipping and support IPv6. IPv6 is a new >> beast, we don't have to be as concerned about applications making >> stupid assumptions. > > you have it exactly opposite. one of the major drivers for IPv6 will > be apps that cannot run over IPv4+NAT, and an important class of these > will be apps that do referrals. and the stupid assumptions that are > being > made is by people who think that IPv6 apps don't need to do this, and > by > people who think that currently shipping IPv6 apps are representative > of future usage of IPv6. That is your opinion, and you're welcome to have an opinion. I do wish you wouldn't bash it over the head of anyone with a differing opinion and use it to derail IETF working groups. Is it invalid to base assumptions on what can be observed? IPv6 has been deployed for a while now. There are applications that support IPv6. This applications work well with IPv6. This applications have to deal with IPv6LL addresses because IPv6LLs have existed for as long as most stable implementations have existed. I'm not sure why you are so concerned about the negative impact of IPv6LL addresses when almost every shipping implementation of IPv6 has implemented IPv6LLs and no one has had serious problems with them. In my opinion, speculating on the wonderful ways that IPv6 could be used (but isn't presently) and making assumptions that the ways in which IPv6 might possibly be used and outlawing any other uses is a foolish thing. My posting to this list was not intended to elicit so many responses and drive the working group in to another mindless yelling match. I wanted to share my experience. We have found a real world use for IPv6LLs. It works, it doesn't appear to cause any harm. With our use of mDNS, it is nearly transparent to most applications. If you try to remove IPv6LL you will get push back from the industry. If you try to deprecate APIs, such as removing the scope id, when there is no clear reason why, you will get push back. This working group may do these things to satisfy the loud and obnoxious people on the list. It will drive the IETF further in to irrelevancy as vendors stop paying attention to and participating in the IETF. These are not threats, these are observations. >> If we explain that IPv6 link local addresses work >> this way and here's a list of limitations, that's good enough. The >> advantages of IPv6 link-local addresses far outweigh the >> disadvantages. > > you made similar arguments for v4 link-local addresses, and you were > wrong > there also. Again, that is your opinion. The major difference between IPv4LL and IPv6LL is that IPv6LL is a part of IPv6 from the start. There are no applications that are developed for IPv6 that don't experience IPv6LL addresses. It doesn't matter how the developer tests the application, if there are any IPv6 addresses, there will be an IPv6LL addresses. If a developer runs in to problems, the developer will work around them or suffer public humiliation and financial ruin when they release a sub-par product. Pointing the finger and saying "I can't make it work because there's this extra address there that's easy to identify as link-local and I just can't figure out how to ignore it" isn't going to cut it. > v6 link-locals make good sense as a mechanism to provide uniform > (independent of link technology), inherently link-local services, > like ND/RA. they are usable by a limited class of applications, but > not applications in general. Does it not make sense to use them in that "limited class of applications"? They sure work well for ssh, even when the rest of the network is falling apart. As long as there are link-locals and the local link is working, ssh can work. http will work as well, along with many network file systems and games. To suggest that the use of IPv6LL for anything other than ND/RA is unholy is just ridiculous. >> IPv6LL is a major selling point. IPv6LL is a sneaky way to get >> everyone >> exposed to IPv6 and to encourage developers to start supporting IPv6. > > great. let's encourage people to use IPv6 in a dysfunctional way, one > that > only works for a limited subset of apps, so that they'll never be able > to > realize the real advantages of IPv6. How is it dysfunctional? It solves real problems and it works. Stop driving this working group in to the weeds Keith. Quite often, you compare the harm this will cause to the harm that NAT causes. I don't think you're right, but if you are, I suggest you start taking a different approach. NAT is a huge pain. The biggest pain stems from the fact that the IETF shunned the idea instead of embracing it. Instead of developing a standard so that all NATs behave the same, the IETF ignored NATs. NATs are very popular because they solve a problem. If the IETF had blessed NAT we may have consistent behavior in NATs and we may have a standard method of poking holes through NATs to make peer to peer applications, such as video chat, work. I've said it before and I'll say it again. IPv6LLs are useful. We will use them. The industry will use them. There is nothing you can do to prevent that, just as there is nothing you can do to stop the spread of NATs. Embrace it, and you may just have an opportunity steer it in a direction that will be less destructive. Condone it and you will lose control. > I'm all for enabling ad hoc networks, and I'm all for enabling > link-specific > applications. But trying to overload IP to do these is doing real > harm. > There's nothing wrong with using the packet format on an ad hoc > network, the > problem is it's the expectation that apps have that IP equates to > Internet > access. An ad hoc network is a different beast than the Internet and > you > can't expect apps in general to transparently work on both kinds of > network. > At the very least you need an API to allow apps to declare whether > they work > on one kind or both. And the default needs to be the Internet. > >> Sure, connectivity off of the local link for those of us in the US is >> only for a few elite, > > until native v6 service is available, anybody can still run 6to4. No they can't. A large number of people use NAT. You can't use 6to4 if you're stuck behind NAT. Oh, that's right, NAT doesn't fit in to your model of the internet. -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 11:59:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIxjU3004367; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MIxjhF004366; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MIxdU3004355 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MIumV7001865 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MIuh5w027429 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB7313FED; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19006-05; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F4214145; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:41 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822145641.34140460.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00c501c368d8$88761310$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822132039.10e5cb00.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00c501c368d8$88761310$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > > > Yet you want to ban apps from recognizing the defined flags FE80, > > > FEC0, FC00, ... > > > > more precisely, I want to discourage the expectation that > > apps can make > > do with *just* these. and if apps have more portable addresses > > available to them, why should apps deal with these at all? > > Some apps should simply ignore them. Some apps would like to leverage > them to solve problems that are not possible when limited to a single > globally reachable address. I don't object to that. I do object to treating LL as if they were generally applicable, or expecting apps to be able to use them and saying that networks don't need portable addresses. > > > So there should only be a single address per host, or all > > > addresses must have exactly the same policy and reachability > > characteristics??? > > > > more or less. I'm still trying to formulate a precise > > statement of this that accomodates renumbering, multihoming, > > local addressing, ad hoc networks, etc. > > In other words we should not allow IPv6 to have any more capability > than IPv4 with more bits.?.?. You have a strange notion of capability. You seem to want to claim that a less functional and less predictable network, one that supports fewer apps and imposes more constraints on those it does support, has more capability. > > > This is the limitation of the IPv4 world. > > > > it's not a limitation, it's a feature. > > Ok, call it a feature, but it is one that we need to leave behind > because it constrains the kinds of problems we can solve. Nope. Expecting apps to use scoped addresses constraints the kinds of apps we can run. > > and while it was > > never mandated in the v4 world, having multiple interfaces > > per host turned out to cause problems when it mattered which > > address you used, so people tended to avoid doing so except > > in special cases. > > Look around, those special cases are becoming the norm. Portable > devices have multiple different interface types, and the reachability > characteristics of those interfaces is very different. By insisting on > a flat space, you preclude the ability to have the flags above > available to sort out which interfaces might be appropriate for which > uses. I certainly acknowledge the existence of such devices; I have one on my desk. And I don't claim that it's easy to deal with having multiple interfaces. But having scoped addresses only makes the problem worse. Nor do the flags help an app sort out which is appropriate to use. So by all means let's try to solve the problem of hosts with multiple interfaces, but let's not try to make our task even more difficult by insisting that apps support ambiguous addresses or addresses with inherently limited reachability. > > > There is nothing preventing > > > an app from continuing down that path. Unfortunately there are > > > some who want to preclude anyone else from taking a different > > > path. > > > > some people don't want a predictable environment for > > applications; > > No, they want a predictable way for apps to deal with the reality of > the underlying network. Or they want to say that it's okay for the network to impose a version of "reality" that doesn't adequately support apps. > > or they want to limit the kinds of apps that > > can be supported. > > No, they want to expand the kind of apps to include those that are not > possible with a monolithic view of the world. Or they want to make the network so unpredictable that the market for apps is fragmented - some apps can work in one kind of network, some in another. Look - the whole idea of IP is that the apps don't concern themselves with routing, and the network doesn't concern itself with data. trying to take away this separation of function doesn't make the network more flexible, it makes it less flexible. And it doesn't allow the network to support more apps, it reduces the number of apps that the network can support. It balkanizes the network. > > one could conclude that they want to harm > > the ability of the Internet to support new apps, or to reduce > > the size of the market for new apps. I prefer to think of > > them as just naive and/or obtuse. > > One could also conclude that IPv6 won't reach its full potential until > a new generation of app developers are free to explore the space > beyond the boundaries of 20 year old technology restrictions. You're trying to cast the most important design feature of the Internet as a technology restriction. Forgive me if I'm not sympathetic. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 12:37:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MJbSU3005475; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MJbRTX005474; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MJbOU3005466 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MJYXV7021136 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MJYRZu008327 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4905) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:34:35 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:33:27 -0700 Message-ID: <00e401c368e4$42b2c470$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822145641.34140460.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MJbOU3005467 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > ... > but let's not try to make our task even more difficult by > insisting that apps support ambiguous addresses or addresses > with inherently limited reachability. For one ambiguity and reachability are different concepts, and for two there is no ambiguity required. It may happen, so we need to provide ways to remove or deal with it when it does. > ... > Or they want to say that it's okay for the network to impose > a version of "reality" that doesn't adequately support apps. The network connectivity is reality. If the app doesn't work in that reality, it simply doesn't work. Expecting the network to be globally accessable and flat is not reality. > > > > or they want to limit the kinds of apps that > > > can be supported. > > > > No, they want to expand the kind of apps to include those > that are not > > possible with a monolithic view of the world. > > Or they want to make the network so unpredictable that the > market for apps is fragmented - some apps can work in one > kind of network, some in another. Such is life. The network connectivity will not change, so the best we can do is provide hints to the app about how to deal with it. > > Look - the whole idea of IP is that the apps don't concern > themselves with routing, and the network doesn't concern > itself with data. trying to take away this separation of > function doesn't make the network more flexible, it makes it > less flexible. And it doesn't allow the network to support > more apps, it reduces the number of apps that the network can > support. It balkanizes the network. Balkanization is derived from both policy and technology and has happened even with the separation. Allowing the apps to have a hint about what is happening down below is not going to make a difference to that. Apps can choose to continue with the separation model, and they will work wherever they work. Other apps can choose to pay attention to the hints and find ways to work around and within the reality of connectivity. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 12:40:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MJeRU3005593; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MJeQeX005592; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MJeMU3005580 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MJbVUu003644 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MJbPW9026551 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7MJZVp31683; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:35:31 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308221935> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdR85TDs; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:35:30 PDT Message-ID: <3F467279.3090706@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:43:53 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ralph Droms CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ralph, I think I'm beginning to notice a trend in these discussions. There seem to be strong arguements against site-local addresses, link-local addresses, multi-addressing, and even "limited-range" addresses such as those proposed in the Hinden/Haberman draft. Without any of these options, it seems to me that all we would have left to consider would be globals. But, how can a host get a global if it comes up in an ad-hoc network with no router? The only option I can see is for the host to have a "burned-in" global address that comes from, e.g., a centralized addressing authority and is assigned, e.g., by the manufacturer, by the user's manual configuration, etc. So, the global would be just like a MAC address in this sense - right? This would all be fine, but we are hit once again with the question of how this would impact routing scalability. Any ideas? Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Ralph Droms wrote: > > > At 10:00 PM 8/21/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > >> This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. >> The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't >> want to make the scenarios work. After-all they don't work in IPv4, >> so they >> must not be really needed, right??? > > > Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL will work > while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience with IPv4LL has been > uniformly bad; I've never intentionally used an IPv4LL address and the > automatic assignment of an IPv4LL address has on several (many?) > occasions > silently interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use > greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am happy to > hear > success stories about IPv4LL. > > I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario work". I > don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the scenario you described. > We can assign IPv4LL addresses today in a one-link, no router ad-hoc > network. But we have to enter the addresses manually and those addresses > get in the way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. What's > different with IPv6LL? > > - Ralph > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:12:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKCMU3006311; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKCL2V006310; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKCIU3006303 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MK9RV7006128 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MK9K5w018939 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7MKBaBu024851; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:11:37 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7MKBZMg024850; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:11:35 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] From: Mika Liljeberg To: Keith Moore Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030822143927.737d8992.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> <20030822143927.737d8992.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 22 Aug 2003 23:11:35 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-22 at 21:39, Keith Moore wrote: > It's important to analyze two cases separately: > > 1. The case where a network is assembled "ad hoc", i.e. with no prior > arrangement and no management > > 2. The case where external connectivity is down but we want the apps > to keep working > > You may have only one of these in mind, but it's been my experience > that people often have both of them in mind when they argue about ad > hoc networks, or they may want the same mechanism to address both cases. > That might be a perfectly reasonable desire (especially if hosts cannot > tell the difference between these two cases), but the analysis needs to > be done separately to make sure that both cases work. Both cases are indeed relevant. The same device might find itself in either of these situations and a common solution to both would be desirable, although not essential. The transitions are also interesting. Basically any transition between a case 1 situation, a case 2 situation, and a fully connected situation is possible. Therefore, I think the solutions for case 1 and case 2 must be at least complementary to each other. The transitions can be difficult to detect, which probably means that the addressing solutions for case 1 and case 2 may have to overlap in time. > Also, the question of what kind of address to use begs a number of other > questions - no answer makes sense without some set of supporting > discipline within hosts or apps, or in some cases, without support from > such infrastructure as might exist (e.g. bridges or routers) in the ad > hoc network. So by attempting to answer the question one exposes > oneself to criticism about the missing pieces, which weren't part of > the question in the first place. Frankly I haven't seen any set of > answers to this problem that seemed thoroughly worked out, and I'm not > even entirely sure that there's a satisfactory answer. But I haven't > tried to follow every group working on some piece of this problem. I recognize the difficulty in providing a good answer but I feel the question is justified, since people have expressed a strong sentiment in the WG to place restrictions on how different types of addresses may be used. I'm merely trying to clarify what those restrictions are. > Now I'll actually assert that - at least for hosts that have wireless > interfaces - the two cases above are distinct, and that it's reasonable > to provide different answers for those two cases - for the simple reason > that you don't necessarily want a host trying to talk to every wireless > network that happens to be within reach. The reason is that the host > has no basis for trusting those networks to deliver its packets or to > not send forged packets to it. This is only partially true. While it is true that a node will typically want to verify whether it is authorized to participate in a particular wireless network, it requires connectivity to actually do that. Either that or the user will have to intervene manually (undesirable). In addition, there are valid use cases where security is not a concern. > And for wired interfaces you are > required to perform some manual action - to at least plug in a cable - > to expect it to work at all. So I conclude that class #1 ad hoc > networks can reasonably be treated differently from class #2 networks. For some types of devices yes, but in general no. Pluggin and unplugging a cable is something that is generally within the capabilies of the average consumer. Anything more complex should be automated, though. > For the class 1 case, a randomly generated PI address would be > appropriate. As I imagine it, each link would elect a randomly chosen > PI prefix, and all nodes on that link would use that prefix. Routers > would learn about PI prefixes and advertise routes for them on the ad > hoc network (but if the network were then connected to the public > network the border routers would filter such routes). If connectivity to > the public Internet subsequently became available on that link, the PI > prefix might be deprecated in favor of a PA prefix, but it might still > make sense to use it with prefix substitution (as in > draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-aa-00.txt) Electing a PI prefix seems plausible enough in a scenario where the ad-hoc network consists of a single link although I'm not sure I like the idea of having to both run DAD and a prefix election protocol in order to acquire an address usable for ad-hoc. It would seem more convenient and less error prone to just permanently assign a static non-routable PI. In a routed ad-hoc network the situation gets more complex as it is not necessarily possible to clearly identify what constitutes link. The set of neighbors for node A is not necessarily the same as the set of neighbors for node B even if A and B are neighbors. However, in the interest of providing customers a usable solution during this decade I would be happy enough to deploy something that at least solves the single link case. Routed ad-hoc networks will be a research topic for a while yet, I fear. > For the class 2 case, it would make some sense for the network to > continue using the last prefix(es) assigned to it; this would be the > least dirsuptive thing for apps and allow for smooth recovery when the > connectivity were regained. If the local router(s) go down then RAs > stop being advertised; so in order to continue using those addresses > hosts would have to be able to make assumptions about the meaning of the > absence of RA without any indication that the old prefix was > deprecated, and to have a way to inform other (new) hosts on the link > about the prefix being used. If the routers stayed up, they could keep > advertising RA for that prefix, even though they lacked external > connectivity. An alternative would be to deprecate the external > addresses in favor of a PI address of some kind, either randomly chosen > or one pre-arranged for use in that network. > > In either case what you want to do is to retain the ability to use the > old addresses for a reasonable amount of time (we need to specify what > is "reasonable" for this - taking both ad hoc networking and renumbering > into account). Keeping in mind what I said about transitions, all of the above would seem to lead to a solution where a node might be required to retain its routable address as well as possess a PI address in order to operate reliably in different scenarios. > It's clear that IPv6 wasn't designed with due consideration for ad hoc > networks, and that some changes will be needed to adequately support > such networks. Again, if anyone has worked out all of the details, I > haven't seen it, and I certainly don't claim to have done so myself. > However I do think it's necessary to work out these details, and to make > the changes necessary, rather than simply assuming that one can "just > use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk of the work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue clearly isn't. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:29:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKT9U3006659; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKT8WF006658; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKT4U3006651 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKQDUu023383 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKQ8Zu012879 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71B31417F; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03569-02; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD29614019; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:26:06 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Joshua Graessley Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Is it invalid to base assumptions on what can be observed? Yes, if you fail to consider the limitations of your observations. Most of the apps that exist today for IPv6 are just conversions of IPv4 apps - they are not representative of what can be done with IPv6. It's not even appropriate to judge the future of IPv4 based on current IPv4 applications. The way that the network is used keeps changing. For instance, p2p file transfer is a much bigger deal now than it was a couple of years ago. Why do you think it's reasonable to make the same error in predicting IPv6 usage, when IPv6 has far less deployment or usage history on which to base any extrapolation? > In my opinion, speculating on the wonderful ways that IPv6 could be > used (but isn't presently) and making assumptions that the ways in > which IPv6 might possibly be used and outlawing any other uses is a > foolish thing. The whole purpose of the Internet is to support diverse applications - and yes, this includes apps that neither you nor I know about. It's not "foolish" to consider the needs of such apps, it's realistic. What's foolish is to assume that everyone uses the Internet, now and in the future, exactly like you've seen it used within your limited experience. > My posting to this list was not intended to elicit so many responses > and drive the working group in to another mindless yelling match. I > wanted to share my experience. We have found a real world use for > IPv6LLs. It works, it doesn't appear to cause any harm. With our use > of mDNS, it is nearly transparent to most applications. And you failed to realize that it causes problems in wider use. When someone points this out to you, rather than getting a clue, you try to discredit them. Denial is not in anyone's interest. Did it occur to you that your emperical testing is inherently biased toward apps that don't have problems? Did it occur to you that "most" present applications that you've seen are not representative of anything else? Certainly not "all" applications or "all useful" applications or "most" apps that others are or will be using, or "future" applications. > > If you try to remove IPv6LL you will get push back from the industry. Who said anything about removing IPv6LL? But if the industry is trying to push LL for general purpose use they damn well should get pushback. Why are you trying to defend industry shortsightedness? > If you try to deprecate APIs, such as removing the scope id, when > there is no clear reason why, you will get push back. Nobody said anything about doing that either. We just need to realize that it's of very limited utility. > This working > group may do these things to satisfy the loud and obnoxious people on > the list. Which loud and obnoxious people - those who are trying to make the Internet safe for apps or those who keep trying to insist that IETF bless whatever dysfunctional practice they're trying to push in products? The IETF does not exist to bless stupidity or shortsightness. > It will drive the IETF further in to irrelevancy as vendors > stop paying attention to and participating in the IETF. These are not > threats, these are observations. Who is being irrelevant - the industry that fails to realize the consequences of its actions, or the people in IETF that try to explain these consequences but keep getting rebuffed by people who insist that "it just works" based on an inadequate amount of testing? > The major difference between IPv4LL and > IPv6LL is that IPv6LL is a part of IPv6 from the start. There are no > applications that are developed for IPv6 that don't experience IPv6LL > addresses. Yes, and this *is* better than IPv4LL. (though it's not the only major difference - ability to have multiple addresses per interface is significant also). But the point is that v6LL was not intended for, and is not suitable for, general use by apps. It's intended for specialized use by specialized apps - as an alternative to every link layer having to define its own way to propagate reachability and routing information. > a developer runs in to problems, the developer will work around them > or suffer public humiliation and financial ruin when they release a > sub-par product. Meanwhile, the v6 net is screwed up worse than the v4 net with NATs. I'm perfectly willing to let commercial developers live or die by the products they produce. But I'm not willing to let developers take the net down with them. At least, not without a fight. > Pointing the finger and saying "I can't make it work > because there's this extra address there that's easy to identify as > link-local and I just can't figure out how to ignore it" isn't going > to cut it. Ignoring such addresses is fine. But we have people arguing that it's reasonable to expect apps in general to use these things. Apps can't ignore those addresses if they're expected to use them. > > v6 link-locals make good sense as a mechanism to provide uniform > > (independent of link technology), inherently link-local services, > > like ND/RA. they are usable by a limited class of applications, but > > not applications in general. > > Does it not make sense to use them in that "limited class of > applications"? They sure work well for ssh, even when the rest of the > network is falling apart. As long as there are link-locals and the > local link is working, ssh can work. Sure! Knock yourself out. I certainly have used ssh with LL addresses, once or twice. > http will work as well, Maybe, as long as you don't do redirects. > along > with many network file systems and games. To suggest that the use of > IPv6LL for anything other than ND/RA is unholy is just ridiculous. It's the other way around. You're saying "there are limited cases where LLs work". I'm saying "they weren't designed for this purpose, there are lots of cases where LLs won't work, so don't count on LLs working in general, and don't encourage people to use LLs in general". What's your objection to telling the truth? > > great. let's encourage people to use IPv6 in a dysfunctional way, > > one that only works for a limited subset of apps, so that they'll > > never be able to realize the real advantages of IPv6. > > How is it dysfunctional? It solves real problems and it works. It works in a pinch, sometimes, but it also causes lots of apps to fail. > Stop driving this working group in to the weeds Keith. In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to get it back on the road - the road that leads to a generally useful network that can support a wide range of apps. Trying to make scoped addresses generally applicable is a lot like being off in the weeds, because that path won't get us anywhere useful, and all it will do it frustrate those who try to follow it. > NAT is a huge pain. The biggest > pain stems from the fact that the IETF shunned the idea instead of > embracing it. That's because there's no way to make NATs work well. They're inherently broken. > Instead of developing a standard so that all NATs behave > the same, the IETF ignored NATs. Wrong. If all NATs were alike we'd still have most of the same problems. Your efforts to blame industry mistakes on IETF aren't going to accomplish anything that's technically useful, so please take it elsewhere. > I've said it before and I'll say it again. IPv6LLs are useful. We will > use them. The industry will use them. There is nothing you can do to > prevent that, just as there is nothing you can do to stop the spread > of NATs. Embrace it, and you may just have an opportunity steer it in > a direction that will be less destructive. Condone it and you will > lose control. You can't fix something that's fundamentally broken, and life is much too short to waste your time trying to do so. Indeed, the reason I'm trying to fix IPv6 is that IPv4 is already hopeless. You keep talking as if the industry is going to screw the net anyway, and you might be right. But if I were to accept that argument, it would be like accepting your argument that we can all extrapolate how well IPv6LL works in general from your limited experience with it. There's simply no justification for either conclusion. > > until native v6 service is available, anybody can still run 6to4. > > No they can't. A large number of people use NAT. You can't use 6to4 if > you're stuck behind NAT. Oh, that's right, NAT doesn't fit in to your > model of the internet. They need a NAT that runs 6to4. I have one at home, so it's clearly possible. Or maybe noncommercial products don't fit into your model of the Internet? Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:38:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKcnU3006932; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKcnl5006931; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKciU3006923 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKZkUu027990 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKZeW9019068 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEEC14181; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04175-11; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9861417F; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:35:38 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822163538.6b4600c1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00e401c368e4$42b2c470$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822145641.34140460.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00e401c368e4$42b2c470$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > > ... > > but let's not try to make our task even more difficult by > > insisting that apps support ambiguous addresses or addresses > > with inherently limited reachability. > > For one ambiguity and reachability are different concepts, and for two > there is no ambiguity required. It may happen, so we need to provide > ways to remove or deal with it when it does. for LL as currently defined, ambiguity is part of the equation. another kind of address might provide a way to resolve that ambiguity. > > Or they want to say that it's okay for the network to impose > > a version of "reality" that doesn't adequately support apps. > > The network connectivity is reality. If the app doesn't work in that > reality, it simply doesn't work. networks are designed to support apps. it's not as if apps can tolerate arbitrary amounts of delay, loss, jitter, etc. providing sane addressing is just another aspect of good network design. > Expecting the network to be globally > accessable and flat is not reality. the network has never been flat in reality, but part of the purpose of IP has always been to provide the illusion of a flat network. we're also a long way from any time when it could be expected that every host in the network could access any other host in the network, but nobody's asking for that now (and I wish you'd stop claiming that people were). > > Look - the whole idea of IP is that the apps don't concern > > themselves with routing, and the network doesn't concern > > itself with data. trying to take away this separation of > > function doesn't make the network more flexible, it makes it > > less flexible. And it doesn't allow the network to support > > more apps, it reduces the number of apps that the network can > > support. It balkanizes the network. > > Balkanization is derived from both policy and technology and has > happened even with the separation. just because it has happened to some degree is not a justification for making it worse. > Allowing the apps to have a hint > about what is happening down below is not going to make a difference > to that. yes, it can - because it's a slippery slope from saying "here's a hint" to "it's okay to do this". and the hints aren't of much use to the apps unless it's to say "it's okay to ignore these addresses". what you're arguing is that it's not okay for apps to ignore these addresses - and that makes the hints irrelevant. the network has a job to do. there's a separation of function between the network and apps inherent in the end-to-end model. if the network fails to do its job, it's not as if the apps are in a good position to take over. what you end up with is a lot of complexity and guesswork on the part of the apps in order to get less functionality, less reliability, more slowly. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:44:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKiOU3007134; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKiO31007133; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKiKU3007126 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKfTV7019992 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKfOCN026691 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3716) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:41:30 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mika Liljeberg'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:40:18 -0700 Message-ID: <00f301c368ed$997c8bc0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MKiLU3007127 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mika Liljeberg wrote: > > However I do think it's necessary to work out these details, and to > > make the changes necessary, rather than simply assuming > that one can > > "just use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. > > It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk > of the work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue > clearly isn't. To some degree the discussion is restricting the potential solution space by assuming that one has to choose between LL, PI, ??? . The state that was not discussed was arriving at 2 because the router crashed, while a new node comes up thinking the network must be in 1 because there is no RA. This is not a problem as long as existing nodes keep both the LL & RA derived prefixes, because the new node can talk to their LL address. The problem is that if the existing nodes are forced to choose a single address, they either break the existing app when the router crashes, or they refuse to talk to new nodes until the router comes back up or the lifetimes expire. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:51:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKpFU3007353; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKpFhG007352; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKpBU3007342 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKmKUu002860 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKmFCN005810 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:48:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4034) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:48:23 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" , "'Joshua Graessley'" Cc: Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:47:10 -0700 Message-ID: <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MKpCU3007343 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > ... What's foolish is to assume > that everyone uses the Internet, now and in the future, > exactly like you've seen it used within your limited experience. Yet you want to do exactly that by insisting that all apps for all time want to view the network as a globally flat-routed space. > ... > The IETF does not exist to bless stupidity or shortsightness. I couldn't have said it better myself. > ... > > http will work as well, > > Maybe, as long as you don't do redirects. Redirects work fine if they are based on names rather than literals. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 13:55:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKtEU3007518; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MKtEv1007517; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MKt8U3007504 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKqHUu004742 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKqBCN010768 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:52:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B99914199; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07578-12; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0375C14197; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:52:09 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Mika Liljeberg Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Message-Id: <20030822165209.25ee4c52.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> References: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> <20030822143927.737d8992.moore@cs.utk.edu> <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > On Fri, 2003-08-22 at 21:39, Keith Moore wrote: > > It's important to analyze two cases separately: > > > > 1. The case where a network is assembled "ad hoc", i.e. with no > > prior arrangement and no management > > > > 2. The case where external connectivity is down but we want the apps > > to keep working > > > > You may have only one of these in mind, but it's been my experience > > that people often have both of them in mind when they argue about ad > > hoc networks, or they may want the same mechanism to address both > > cases. That might be a perfectly reasonable desire (especially if > > hosts cannot tell the difference between these two cases), but the > > analysis needs to be done separately to make sure that both cases > > work. > > Both cases are indeed relevant. The same device might find itself in > either of these situations and a common solution to both would be > desirable, although not essential. > > The transitions are also interesting. Basically any transition between > a case 1 situation, a case 2 situation, and a fully connected > situation is possible. Don't forget mobile ip and renumbering! LOTS of transitions are possible. Naturally it's nice if the same mechanisms can work with different kinds of transitions, and there's a strong motiviation to look for similarities that can be exploited. > > Now I'll actually assert that - at least for hosts that have > > wireless interfaces - the two cases above are distinct, and that > > it's reasonable to provide different answers for those two cases - > > for the simple reason that you don't necessarily want a host trying > > to talk to every wireless network that happens to be within reach. > > The reason is that the host has no basis for trusting those networks > > to deliver its packets or to not send forged packets to it. > > This is only partially true. While it is true that a node will > typically want to verify whether it is authorized to participate in a > particular wireless network, it requires connectivity to actually do > that. yes, but it doesn't have to route to and from ordinary apps in order to do that. > Either that or the user will have to intervene manually > (undesirable). In addition, there are valid use cases where security > is not a concern. I'm not sure about that. What I can imagine is that if you already have exchanged keying material with a particular wireless network and have decided to invest trust in it, you don't necessarily need to manually initiate each transition to or from using that network. > > And for wired interfaces you are > > required to perform some manual action - to at least plug in a cable > > - to expect it to work at all. So I conclude that class #1 ad hoc > > networks can reasonably be treated differently from class #2 > > networks. > > For some types of devices yes, but in general no. Pluggin and > unplugging a cable is something that is generally within the > capabilies of the average consumer. The point is it is a detectable event that can help distinguish the two cases. > > For the class 1 case, a randomly generated PI address would be > > appropriate. As I imagine it, each link would elect a randomly > > chosen PI prefix, and all nodes on that link would use that prefix. > > Routers would learn about PI prefixes and advertise routes for them > > on the ad hoc network (but if the network were then connected to the > > public network the border routers would filter such routes). If > > connectivity to the public Internet subsequently became available on > > that link, the PI prefix might be deprecated in favor of a PA > > prefix, but it might still make sense to use it with prefix > > substitution (as in draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-aa-00.txt) > > Electing a PI prefix seems plausible enough in a scenario where the > ad-hoc network consists of a single link although I'm not sure I like > the idea of having to both run DAD and a prefix election protocol in > order to acquire an address usable for ad-hoc. It would seem more > convenient and less error prone to just permanently assign a static > non-routable PI. well, that's not exactly "ad hoc" is it? I suspect we'd like to be able to plug things in and have them "just work". What I have in mind is that you'd only have to do prefix election the first time a few hosts found themselves connected to a link; after that, new hosts would learn about the prefix used on that link from other hosts on that link. Maybe something like each host advertises the prefix on that link at random intervals based on how many hosts were seen on the network - the more hosts, the less frequent the advertisements. > In a routed ad-hoc network the situation gets more complex as it is > not necessarily possible to clearly identify what constitutes link. sure it is. you run the prefix election protocol over LL. or what am I missing? > The set of neighbors for node A is not necessarily the same as the set > of neighbors for node B even if A and B are neighbors. However, in the > interest of providing customers a usable solution during this decade I > would be happy enough to deploy something that at least solves > the single link case. Routed ad-hoc networks will be a research topic > for a while yet, I fear. perhaps. for now I am happy if each link can choose its own prefix. somehow I don't think it's that difficult for routers to sort out a small number of ad hoc prefixes. > > In either case what you want to do is to retain the ability to use > > the old addresses for a reasonable amount of time (we need to > > specify what is "reasonable" for this - taking both ad hoc > > networking and renumbering into account). > > Keeping in mind what I said about transitions, all of the above would > seem to lead to a solution where a node might be required to retain > its routable address as well as possess a PI address in order to > operate reliably in different scenarios. I think that's reasonable. the trick then becomes how to define a model that apps can use. > > It's clear that IPv6 wasn't designed with due consideration for ad > > hoc networks, and that some changes will be needed to adequately > > support such networks. Again, if anyone has worked out all of the > > details, I haven't seen it, and I certainly don't claim to have done > > so myself. However I do think it's necessary to work out these > > details, and to make the changes necessary, rather than simply > > assuming that one can "just use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. > > It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk of the > work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue clearly isn't. of course, there are hazards associated with the separation. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:01:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ML1PU3007775; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ML1O19007774; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ML1KU3007766 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKwTV7026872 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKwOCN019115 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:58:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2161417B; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08277-13; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3784F14145; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:58:22 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mika.liljeberg@welho.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Message-Id: <20030822165822.0117b724.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00f301c368ed$997c8bc0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> <00f301c368ed$997c8bc0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > However I do think it's necessary to work out these details, and > > > to make the changes necessary, rather than simply assuming > > that one can > > > "just use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. > > > > It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk > > of the work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue > > clearly isn't. > > To some degree the discussion is restricting the potential solution > space by assuming that one has to choose between LL, PI, ??? . The > state that was not discussed was arriving at 2 because the router > crashed, while a new node comes up thinking the network must be in 1 > because there is no RA. I did have exactly that transition in mind; what I thought I said was in the absence of RA that hosts still on the network would have to inform new hosts as to what prefix was assigned to that link. > The problem is that if the existing nodes > are forced to choose a single address, they either break the existing > app when the router crashes, or they refuse to talk to new nodes until > the router comes back up or the lifetimes expire. apps need to have stable identifiers for use in referrals. that doesn't necessarily mean that those addresses actually have to be used on the wire. my prefix substitution draft is one proposal for allowing a different address to be substituted without impacting the app. that draft is intended to address a specific situation. meanwhile I'm trying to understand if there's a more general prefix mapping mechanism that would allow fast and reliable mapping of stable identifiers to addresses that are currently usable on the network, and what it would look like. of course, as long as TCP and UDP use addresses as endpoint identifiers there is a limit to how much functionality you can gain by substituting addresses on an initial connection. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:02:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ML2hU3007892; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ML2hZq007890; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ML2cU3007881 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MKxmUu008012 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MKxgZu005312 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9F71417C; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08574-14; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354B614145; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:59:40 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jgraessley@apple.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > > ... What's foolish is to assume > > that everyone uses the Internet, now and in the future, > > exactly like you've seen it used within your limited experience. > > Yet you want to do exactly that by insisting that all apps for all > time want to view the network as a globally flat-routed space. I have yet to see anything that would justify changing this fundamental design feature of IP. > > The IETF does not exist to bless stupidity or shortsightness. > > I couldn't have said it better myself. glad you agree :) > > ... > > > http will work as well, > > > > Maybe, as long as you don't do redirects. > > Redirects work fine if they are based on names rather than literals. nope, that just causes a different set of failures under different circumstances. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:11:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLBNU3008479; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MLBNue008478; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLBKU3008471 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ML8TUu012563 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ML8MZu012304 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7MLAeBu025065; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:10:40 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7MLAYiF025064; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:10:34 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: RE: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] From: Mika Liljeberg To: Tony Hain Cc: "'Keith Moore'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <00f301c368ed$997c8bc0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <00f301c368ed$997c8bc0$63124104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061586634.20128.135.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 23 Aug 2003 00:10:34 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-22 at 23:40, Tony Hain wrote: > > It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk > > of the work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue > > clearly isn't. > > To some degree the discussion is restricting the potential solution space by > assuming that one has to choose between LL, PI, ??? . I didn't mean to imply that this would be the only address assigned to the node. What I wanted to ask was, what type of address should be used in ad-hoc situations, regardless of what other addresses a node might have. > The state that was not > discussed was arriving at 2 because the router crashed, while a new node > comes up thinking the network must be in 1 because there is no RA. This is > not a problem as long as existing nodes keep both the LL & RA derived > prefixes, because the new node can talk to their LL address. The problem is > that if the existing nodes are forced to choose a single address, they > either break the existing app when the router crashes, or they refuse to > talk to new nodes until the router comes back up or the lifetimes expire. I agree. Forcing a node to choose a single address is unworkable, as it would require groups of communicating nodes to execute synchronized transitions between addressing states. In ad-hoc scenarios the only stable perspective is that of a single node. The environment consists of other nodes and is constantly changing. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:17:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLHFU3008873; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MLHFPN008871; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLHBU3008858 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MLEKV7004931 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLEECN010977 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3284) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:14:19 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:13:04 -0700 Message-ID: <00f501c368f2$2fa6f0f0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822163538.6b4600c1.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MLHBU3008859 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > for LL as currently defined, ambiguity is part of the > equation. another kind of address might provide a way to > resolve that ambiguity. There is nothing about the address type the creates ambiguity. These addresses are not meant to be used off of the current link. That means not forwarding packets containing them to other links (including in the content part). Since the routers will only see the headers, it becomes the application's responsibility to keep them on-link. If the application can't do that it simply can't put them in packets. > networks are designed to support apps. it's not as if apps > can tolerate arbitrary amounts of delay, loss, jitter, etc. > providing sane addressing is just another aspect of good > network design. Networks and applications are designed to allow people to accomplish tasks. Sometimes the network designs are focused on very specific tasks and the applications needed to accomplish them. The fact that other apps are run on that same network is an artifact of the flexibility of IP. Trying to require the network to be designed to optimally support the other apps is not realistic. > > > Expecting the network to be globally > > accessable and flat is not reality. > > the network has never been flat in reality, but part of the > purpose of IP has always been to provide the illusion of a > flat network. That would be the purpose of the illusionary session layer ... > we're also a long way from any time when it > could be expected that every host in the network could access > any other host in the network, but nobody's asking for that > now (and I wish you'd stop claiming that people were). 'networks are designed to support apps. ' appears to be demanding that the network provide global accessibility. > ... > yes, it can - because it's a slippery slope from saying > "here's a hint" to "it's okay to do this". and the hints > aren't of much use to the apps For the apps you care about, maybe, but that does not represent all apps. > unless it's to say "it's okay to ignore these addresses". > what you're arguing is that it's > not okay for apps to ignore these addresses - and that makes > the hints irrelevant. It is not ok to ignore them, but it is ok to use the hint in prioritizing. Some apps will want to prioritize them high while others like your favorites will want to prioritize them low. Refusing to allow them to be used only ensures that app doesn't work without explicit manual intervention. Since many of the target environments are trying to avoid explicit manual intervention, they need to be used. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:29:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLTsU3009538; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MLTr4P009537; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLToU3009527 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MLQxUu021223 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLQrCN027501 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:26:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7MLQrs23889 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:26:53 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308222126> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdRYIRSx; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:26:52 PDT Message-ID: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:15 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg item (see below)? Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:13 -0400 To: IETF-Announce: ; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2003-8-14 The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for addressing to support local communications within sites. Of special interest are 'active sites', e.g., sites that are intermittently-connected or disconnected from the global Internet, sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, sites that temporarily or permanently merge with other sites, multi-homed sites, etc. This memo will discuss addressing requirements for local communications within sites. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 14:46:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLkiU3010061; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MLki6u010060; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MLkeU3010053 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MLhnUu028868 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLeVij025914 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:40:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7MLgnBu025184; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:42:50 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7MLgnCA025183; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:42:49 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] From: Mika Liljeberg To: Keith Moore Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030822165209.25ee4c52.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <1061574876.20126.58.camel@hades> <20030822143927.737d8992.moore@cs.utk.edu> <1061583095.20128.122.camel@hades> <20030822165209.25ee4c52.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061588568.20126.167.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 23 Aug 2003 00:42:49 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-22 at 23:52, Keith Moore wrote: > > > Now I'll actually assert that - at least for hosts that have > > > wireless interfaces - the two cases above are distinct, and that > > > it's reasonable to provide different answers for those two cases - > > > for the simple reason that you don't necessarily want a host trying > > > to talk to every wireless network that happens to be within reach. > > > The reason is that the host has no basis for trusting those networks > > > to deliver its packets or to not send forged packets to it. > > > > This is only partially true. While it is true that a node will > > typically want to verify whether it is authorized to participate in a > > particular wireless network, it requires connectivity to actually do > > that. > > yes, but it doesn't have to route to and from ordinary apps in order to > do that. That rather depends on what layer the authorization occurs. In ad-hoc use cases involving proximity applications the decision to talk might typically occur on the application layer between a group of nodes participating in a particular application. For another application, a different group of nodes might participate. IP layer connectivity in this case is a free-for-all. > > Either that or the user will have to intervene manually > > (undesirable). In addition, there are valid use cases where security > > is not a concern. > > I'm not sure about that. See above. Proximity applications are a good example. > > > And for wired interfaces you are > > > required to perform some manual action - to at least plug in a cable > > > - to expect it to work at all. So I conclude that class #1 ad hoc > > > networks can reasonably be treated differently from class #2 > > > networks. > > > > For some types of devices yes, but in general no. Pluggin and > > unplugging a cable is something that is generally within the > > capabilies of the average consumer. > > The point is it is a detectable event that can help distinguish the two > cases. In the wired case, yes, but not necessarily in the wireless case (depend on the link layer). Detecting changes in connectivity can be difficult with technologies like 802.11 (ad-hoc mode). > > > For the class 1 case, a randomly generated PI address would be > > > appropriate. As I imagine it, each link would elect a randomly > > > chosen PI prefix, and all nodes on that link would use that prefix. > > > Routers would learn about PI prefixes and advertise routes for them > > > on the ad hoc network (but if the network were then connected to the > > > public network the border routers would filter such routes). If > > > connectivity to the public Internet subsequently became available on > > > that link, the PI prefix might be deprecated in favor of a PA > > > prefix, but it might still make sense to use it with prefix > > > substitution (as in draft-moore-ipv6-prefix-substitution-aa-00.txt) > > > > Electing a PI prefix seems plausible enough in a scenario where the > > ad-hoc network consists of a single link although I'm not sure I like > > the idea of having to both run DAD and a prefix election protocol in > > order to acquire an address usable for ad-hoc. It would seem more > > convenient and less error prone to just permanently assign a static > > non-routable PI. > > well, that's not exactly "ad hoc" is it? Ad-hoc doesn't mean having a dynamic address. It means having a dynamic environment. > I suspect we'd like to be able > to plug things in and have them "just work". What I have in mind is > that you'd only have to do prefix election the first time a few hosts > found themselves connected to a link; after that, new hosts would learn > about the prefix used on that link from other hosts on that link. Maybe > something like each host advertises the prefix on that link at random > intervals based on how many hosts were seen on the network - the more > hosts, the less frequent the advertisements. > > > In a routed ad-hoc network the situation gets more complex as it is > > not necessarily possible to clearly identify what constitutes link. > > sure it is. you run the prefix election protocol over LL. or what am I > missing? You're missing the idea that with wireless devices there may not be a clearly defined group of nodes that constitute a "link". The single-link case could be defined as "all nodes in the area can directly communicate with all the other nodes without requiring an intermediate node to forward the packets". The routed ad-hoc case, on the other hand is when not all nodes can talk directly to each other, e.g. due to limited range or obstacles in the line-of-sight path. Ie., A can talk to B, B can talk to C, but A can't talk to C. Some paths might even be uni-directional, i.e. A can talk to B but B can't talk to A (maybe A uses more power). In practise, ad-hoc routing protocols discover the neighbor relationships between each node and advertise host routes towards individual nodes. While you could elect a prefix for every point-to-point link {X,Y} that's not really a good solution. It's better to have a static unambiguous address that can be advertised around as a host route. The non-routable PI would seem to fit the bill, though. > > > It's clear that IPv6 wasn't designed with due consideration for ad > > > hoc networks, and that some changes will be needed to adequately > > > support such networks. Again, if anyone has worked out all of the > > > details, I haven't seen it, and I certainly don't claim to have done > > > so myself. However I do think it's necessary to work out these > > > details, and to make the changes necessary, rather than simply > > > assuming that one can "just use LL" or "just use PI" or whatever. > > > > It would be nice to see some of this happen. While the bulk of the > > work is a matter for another WG, the addressing issue clearly isn't. > > of course, there are hazards associated with the separation. True. But it is not really appropriate to tell people to "go solve it in another group" and only tell them that they have used an inappropriate addressing scheme when they come back with a specification in two or three years. :) MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 15:00:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MM04U3010488; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MM04Cw010487; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MM00U3010480 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MLv0V7025682 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MLurW9020302 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4E614027; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18791-12; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0B914193; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:55:04 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822175504.09d53f3e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00f501c368f2$2fa6f0f0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822163538.6b4600c1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f501c368f2$2fa6f0f0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > for LL as currently defined, ambiguity is part of the > > equation. another kind of address might provide a way to > > resolve that ambiguity. > > There is nothing about the address type the creates ambiguity. These > addresses are not meant to be used off of the current link. That means not > forwarding packets containing them to other links (including in the content > part). Since the routers will only see the headers, it becomes the > application's responsibility to keep them on-link. If the application can't > do that it simply can't put them in packets. All well and good, until someone starts saying that it's okay to expect apps to use v4LL addresses. > > networks are designed to support apps. it's not as if apps > > can tolerate arbitrary amounts of delay, loss, jitter, etc. > > providing sane addressing is just another aspect of good > > network design. > > Networks and applications are designed to allow people to accomplish tasks. > Sometimes the network designs are focused on very specific tasks and the > applications needed to accomplish them. The fact that other apps are run on > that same network is an artifact of the flexibility of IP. Trying to require > the network to be designed to optimally support the other apps is not > realistic. Trying to require apps to run on arbitrary networks isn't realistic either. If you understand that you're building a network to support a very specific set of apps, you can cut corners, but then you're responsible for whatever you create. it's not IETF's job to specify how that network operates or the constraints for apps running on that network. it's IETF's job to specify how a general purpose network operates, and how apps need to behave if they expect to function on general purpose networks. > > > Expecting the network to be globally > > > accessable and flat is not reality. > > > > the network has never been flat in reality, but part of the > > purpose of IP has always been to provide the illusion of a > > flat network. > > That would be the purpose of the illusionary session layer ... uh, no. that's what layer 3 is for. you have heard of routing? > > we're also a long way from any time when it > > could be expected that every host in the network could access > > any other host in the network, but nobody's asking for that > > now (and I wish you'd stop claiming that people were). > > 'networks are designed to support apps. ' appears to be demanding that the > network provide global accessibility. certainly not what I had in mind. of course if the network administratively prevents the app from communicating, you don't expect the app to work. but then the responsibility is (or should be) clear. > > ... > > yes, it can - because it's a slippery slope from saying > > "here's a hint" to "it's okay to do this". and the hints > > aren't of much use to the apps > > For the apps you care about, maybe, but that does not represent all apps. the apps that work with LL anyway don't need the hints. the apps that can't work with LL could use the hints to avoid using those addresses, but the existence of those hints doesn't help if those apps are expected to work with LL addresses. it's not the existence of v6 LL addresses that causes the problems, it's the idea that they're suitable for general purpose use. > > unless it's to say "it's okay to ignore these addresses". > > what you're arguing is that it's > > not okay for apps to ignore these addresses - and that makes > > the hints irrelevant. > > It is not ok to ignore them, but it is ok to use the hint in prioritizing. > Some apps will want to prioritize them high while others like your favorites > will want to prioritize them low. prioritizing doesn't make the app work. it just changes when and how the failures are detected. > Refusing to allow them to be used only > ensures that app doesn't work without explicit manual intervention. nobody has suggested refusing to allow them to be used - what is at issue here is whether it's okay to mislead people. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 15:19:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MMJlU3011401; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MMJkui011400; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MMJhU3011390 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MMGqV7004495 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-024-162.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.24.162]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MMGkZu027244 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4042) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:16:53 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:15:34 -0700 Message-ID: <00fe01c368fa$e8a620a0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822175504.09d53f3e.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7MMJhU3011391 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > > Expecting the network to be globally > > > > accessable and flat is not reality. > > > > > > the network has never been flat in reality, but part of the > > > purpose of IP has always been to provide the illusion of a > > > flat network. > > > > That would be the purpose of the illusionary session layer ... > > uh, no. that's what layer 3 is for. you have heard of routing? Yes I have heard of routing. Its job is to deliver the packets between the current attachment points. There is no requirement for L3 to maintain a consistent flat perspective up to the app. That only happens because the app has the illusion of a stable session identifier that it derived from L3 information that was valid at one point in time. > ... > it's not the existence of v6 LL addresses that causes the > problems, it's the idea that they're suitable for general purpose use. > ... > > Refusing to allow them to be used only > > ensures that app doesn't work without explicit manual intervention. > > nobody has suggested refusing to allow them to be used - Please get the story straight here. In that last comment they can be used, but the prior one precludes them from being used. As I see it, in the absense of any other address, there is no choice so every app must have the option to use them. With other options available, the app should have the opportunity to decide which it wants to use based on it operational characteristics and goals. Either way the app needs a flag to indicate what it is dealing with. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 15:59:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MMxsU3012411; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7MMxs8x012410; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7MMxoU3012403 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7MMuxUu001484 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [213.172.48.142]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7MMuqZu021339 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from consulintel02 ([210.93.162.252]) by consulintel.es (consulintel.es [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.4.R) with ESMTP id 57-md50000000017.tmp for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:59:03 +0200 Message-ID: <015001c36900$e97d10f0$ba1510ac@consulintel.es> Reply-To: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" From: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" To: References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> <3F467279.3090706@iprg.nokia.com> Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:58:29 +0900 Organization: Consulintel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: consulintel.es, Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:59:03 +0200 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 210.93.162.252 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk And what about privacy then ? I agree there is a balance between privacy and features, always, but ... Regards, Jordi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Templin" To: "Ralph Droms" Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:43 AM Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > Hi Ralph, > > I think I'm beginning to notice a trend in these discussions. There seem to > be strong arguements against site-local addresses, link-local addresses, > multi-addressing, and even "limited-range" addresses such as those > proposed in the Hinden/Haberman draft. Without any of these options, > it seems to me that all we would have left to consider would be globals. > > But, how can a host get a global if it comes up in an ad-hoc network with > no router? The only option I can see is for the host to have a "burned-in" > global address that comes from, e.g., a centralized addressing authority and > is assigned, e.g., by the manufacturer, by the user's manual configuration, > etc. So, the global would be just like a MAC address in this sense - right? > This would all be fine, but we are hit once again with the question of > how this would impact routing scalability. Any ideas? > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > Ralph Droms wrote: > > > > > > > At 10:00 PM 8/21/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > > > >> This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. > >> The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't > >> want to make the scenarios work. After-all they don't work in IPv4, > >> so they > >> must not be really needed, right??? > > > > > > Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL will work > > while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience with IPv4LL has been > > uniformly bad; I've never intentionally used an IPv4LL address and the > > automatic assignment of an IPv4LL address has on several (many?) > > occasions > > silently interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use > > greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am happy to > > hear > > success stories about IPv4LL. > > > > I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario work". I > > don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the scenario you described. > > We can assign IPv4LL addresses today in a one-link, no router ad-hoc > > network. But we have to enter the addresses manually and those addresses > > get in the way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. What's > > different with IPv6LL? > > > > - Ralph > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***************************** Madrid 2003 Global IPv6 Summit Presentations and videos on-line at: http://www.ipv6-es.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 17:04:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N04UU3013686; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N04U6J013685; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N04QU3013678 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with 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ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 17:35:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N0ZWU3014629; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N0ZW99014628; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N0ZRU3014614 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N0WaUu006806 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N0TVij009369 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:29:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7N0TSM25193; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:29:28 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308230029> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdfM385I; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:29:26 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822164335.02ce3648@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:27:48 -0700 To: Keith Moore From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030821201650.3d5a41a5.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, At 05:16 PM 8/21/2003, Keith Moore wrote: >I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. IMHO it has the >potential to do a great deal of harm. It is even worse that NAT. "Worse than NAT". Coming from you that must be pretty bad..... >Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find that people will >now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? > >If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less functional than >IPv4, why did we bother? I see it another way. It seems to me that in cases where there are no routers, globally assigned prefixes, DNS, servers, etc., if nodes can discover each others IPv6 link-local addresses and use them for communications, this is a good thing. Especially when the alternative is for them to not communicate at all. I think this is a very legitimate use of IPv6 link-local addresses and do not think we should restrict it (even if we could). Note that I don't think it is trivial to do this and that there are no issues with the transition between this environment and a global environment. Nor do I think we should put IPv6 link-local address in the global DNS. My other point was that IPv6 suffers from only adding value when everyone else has it and there is global IPv6 connectivity. I think it is a good thing if people find good uses for IPv6 with needing everyone else to have it first. I think this will have the effect of getting us to global IPv6 faster. It give people local incentive to use it. I think this is a good thing. Bob p.s. Please accept that we may disagree about this. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 17:41:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N0f5U3014760; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N0f5KJ014759; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N0f0U3014752 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N0c9Uu008589 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paf.se (argc.paf.se [195.66.31.71]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N0c1W9008588 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.1) with PIPE id 1125120; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:41:32 +0200 Received: from localhost [127.0.0.1] by argc.paf.se with SpamAssassin (2.55 1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:41:22 +0200 From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:01:08 --0400 Message-Id: <200308230001.h7N01ICN025543@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=7.6 required=5.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,INVALID_DATE, MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE,MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,MISSING_MIMEOLE, MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3,NO_REAL_NAME,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100, RAZOR2_CHECK version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: ******* X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_3F46B832.2FD31CBE" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------=_3F46B832.2FD31CBE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This mail is probably spam. 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[skipped application/octet-stream attachment] IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (7.60 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name INVALID_DATE (0.6 points) Invalid Date: header (not RFC 2822) RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100 (1.2 points) BODY: Razor2 gives a spam confidence level between 91 and 100 [cf: 100] MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE (0.1 points) RAW: Message includes Microsoft executable program RAZOR2_CHECK (0.9 points) Listed in Razor2, see http://razor.sf.net/ MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 (0.9 points) 'Message-Id' was added by a relay (3) DATE_IN_PAST_03_06 (0.3 points) Date: is 3 to 6 hours before Received: date MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. If you wish to view it, it may be safer to save it to a file and open it with an editor. ------------=_3F46B832.2FD31CBE Content-Type: message/rfc822; x-spam-type=original Content-Description: original message before SpamAssassin Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Envelope-To: eva@tibbir.se X-Spam-Status: SpamAssassin Failed Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1) with ESMTP id 1125119 for eva@tibbir.se; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:40:47 +0200 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.21]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N08d5w008725; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N023Vf016033; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAIwJAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_008013B1-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F46B832.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 18:14:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1E1U3015935; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N1E15r015934; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1DvU3015927 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N1B6V7009956 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N189ij010378 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:08:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C915141A4; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15605-07; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7743214035; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:06:21 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822210621.0e66f8f6.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <00fe01c368fa$e8a620a0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822175504.09d53f3e.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00fe01c368fa$e8a620a0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:15:34 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > > > > Expecting the network to be globally > > > > > accessable and flat is not reality. > > > > > > > > the network has never been flat in reality, but part of the > > > > purpose of IP has always been to provide the illusion of a > > > > flat network. > > > > > > That would be the purpose of the illusionary session layer ... > > > > uh, no. that's what layer 3 is for. you have heard of routing? > > Yes I have heard of routing. Its job is to deliver the packets between the > current attachment points. There is no requirement for L3 to maintain a > consistent flat perspective up to the app. L3 makes routing look flat to the end systems. That's its job - to steer packets through the network. The network is aware of topology so that end systems don't have to be. Of course the original design of IP routing expected end systems to be more-or-less fixed relative to the network. It's true that mobile/nomadic systems aren't well-served by traditional IP routing. That's why people are working on mobile IP. It's also true that ad hoc networks aren't well served by traditional IP routing mechanisms. Still, these are properly L3 functionality, even if they're not well served by existing mechanisms. > That only happens because the app > has the illusion of a stable session identifier that it derived from L3 > information that was valid at one point in time. The design of both IPv4 and IPv6 uses addresses as both endpoint identifiers (hence their use in TCP) and locators. This was (and still IMHO is) a reasonable compromise for hosts with fixed locations. For mobile or nomadic hosts you need to seperate them somehow. > > ... > > it's not the existence of v6 LL addresses that causes the > > problems, it's the idea that they're suitable for general purpose use. > > ... > > > Refusing to allow them to be used only > > > ensures that app doesn't work without explicit manual intervention. > > > > nobody has suggested refusing to allow them to be used - > > Please get the story straight here. In that last comment they can be used, > but the prior one precludes them from being used. I don't know why you can't see the difference. Why don't you go back and read those two sentences over again and again until you get it? > As I see it, in the absense of any other address, there is no choice so > every app must have the option to use them. If there are no other address available, the network is dysfunctional. This might be an acceptable condition for a test bench, say, or while debugging a network that is broken, or to support a few very specific apps. It's not an acceptable condition for normal operation. > With other options available, > the app should have the opportunity to decide which it wants to use based on > it operational characteristics and goals. Either way the app needs a flag to > indicate what it is dealing with. I'll certainly agree that as long as v6LL's exist, it's important to be able to distinguish them from real addresses. But this doesn't make them suitable for general use. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 18:24:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1O6U3016236; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N1O6t1016235; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1O2U3016226 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N1LBUu022329 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N1L5CN021589 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:21:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78856141A8; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16832-15; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197BD141A5; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:19:18 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030822211918.13f42be6.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822164335.02ce3648@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030821163038.02cef350@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030822164335.02ce3648@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > At 05:16 PM 8/21/2003, Keith Moore wrote: > >I strongly disagree that this practice adds value to IPv6. IMHO it has the > >potential to do a great deal of harm. It is even worse that NAT. > > "Worse than NAT". Coming from you that must be pretty bad..... I said that because I did a quick mental comparison of restrictions and decided that a network using LLs was actually less functional than one using private addresses and NAT. > >Did we go to all of that trouble to deprecate SL only to find that people > >will now insist that LLs are generally usable by apps? > > > >If we're going to make IPv6 even less predictable and less functional than > >IPv4, why did we bother? > > I see it another way. It seems to me that in cases where there are no > routers, globally assigned prefixes, DNS, servers, etc., if nodes can > discover each others IPv6 link-local addresses and use them for > communications, this is a good thing. It might be useful for them to do so in a pinch. That's a long way from saying that this is a practice that we should recommend or that apps in general should support. (of course if the app works fine with v6LL and no changes, there's no reason for the app to not use v6LL. what we need to avoid is to create an expectation that apps in general should be able to make use of v6LL) What we need to do is to figure out how to make such networks work well, rather than throwing the IPv6 LL bone at them and telling them to make do with it. > Note that I don't think it is trivial to do this and that > there are no issues with the transition between this environment and a > global environment. Nor do I think we should put IPv6 link-local address > in the global DNS. I don't think LLs belong in DNS at all. We should not endorse multi-faced DNS. > My other point was that IPv6 suffers from only adding value when everyone > else has it and there is global IPv6 connectivity. I disagree. I find IPv6 extremely valuable even though I rarely use it to connect to anyone else's machines. It would cost me hundreds of dollars more per month to get enough distinct IPv4 addresses to connect all of my machines directly to the net. > I think it is a good > thing if people find good uses for IPv6 with needing everyone else to have > it first. I agree - as long as the widespread use of IPv6 in this way does not do much harm to IPv6. My assertion is that widespread use of v6LL does cause harm. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 18:58:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1w4U3017294; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N1w4TM017293; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N1vxU3017286 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N1t9Uu002545 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N1t35w004585 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9F1141B4; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21853-14; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCCC141B2; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:53:16 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Fred Templin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-Id: <20030822215316.3e200de8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:15 -0700 Fred Templin wrote: > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? what does it mean to do this? if it means we generally support the requirements, I say no. if it means we are going to try to refine these into a set of requirements we can agree on, I am still dubious. it if just means that we allow the document to be renamed draft-ipv6-* then it doesn't bother me too much one way or the other. but I think we should leave the door open for other attempts at drafting sets of design considerations. and we should probably not call them requirements in any case. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 21:07:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N47mU3020653; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N47ltn020651; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N47hU3020634 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N44qUu010401 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N44kCN011591 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934D4A23A for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:04:46 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:04:45 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17C9@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Thread-Index: AcNl7UtG1pt8CDK6QVS+xR2V8127wgAD5VIgAEp595AAEwTyIAA5W+kQAAYyCDAALpb0oA== From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Brian Zill" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 04:04:46.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0B44420:01C3692B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7N47hU3020635 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Brian, > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Zill [mailto:bzill@microsoft.com] > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:37 AM > To: Bound, Jim; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications > > > Hi Jim, > > I'm still not sure I understand your position? Do not use LLs on command lines for applications in most cases. This is not necessary to do in the IETF. Those cases where it is necessary should be documented. thanks /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 21:16:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N4GiU3020900; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N4GiCM020898; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N4GeU3020879 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N4DnV7005597 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N4DhW9005274 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1835E9BB1; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:42 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:13:42 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CB@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNo2UPDmJ78W3TlReehtuWG6itKtwAU35pA From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Keith Moore" , "Tony Hain" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 04:13:43.0168 (UTC) FILETIME=[F08BD800:01C3692C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7N4GeU3020881 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > you know, I'm really fed up with your misrepresenting my positions. I not speaking to Mr. Hain for awhile but I feel the same. The fact is that the WG believes this is important discussion. Whether Mr. Hain likes it or not. /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 22:06:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N56pU3021980; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N56pnH021979; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N56lU3021972 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N53vUu025550 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N53oZu024040 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEF19AAC; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:03:45 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:03:44 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CD@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNo4ZuxUEz57lj+SJGdsZYEPzs9/QATJqKg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Joshua Graessley" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 05:03:45.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDE85220:01C36933] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7N56mU3021973 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Joshua, > Is it invalid to base assumptions on what can be observed? IPv6 has > been deployed for a while now. There are applications that support > IPv6. This applications work well with IPv6. This > applications have to > deal with IPv6LL addresses because IPv6LLs have existed for > as long as > most stable implementations have existed. I'm not sure why you are so > concerned about the negative impact of IPv6LL addresses when almost > every shipping implementation of IPv6 has implemented IPv6LLs and no > one has had serious problems with them. IPv6LLs are very valuable to IPv6 for node discovery and first phase of autoconfiguration and that was their purpose and reason for creation. Your correct IPv6LLs have been around for a long time and they don't cause a problem on a single link. I have built the code to use them for IPv6, and been at bake-offs etc and have not seen a duplicate link-local on multiple links either. If a node communicates to another node with an IPv6LL and the receiving node sets the sin6_scope_ID the node can respond if sin6_scope_ID was implemented yes. All of this is axiomatic and proven. What is new is when the initial application wants to initiate communications with another node on a network and there is no DNS entry for the node and the only way is to have the application select the node destination is from the command line. On a single link that will work for a non-multihomed node. That is axiomatic. But if the node is multihomed with two links as in the diagram I sent and there is a duplicate link-local on one of the multihomed links, then how does the user know the packet is going to the correct node? That is the bottom line question for me. All the rest of this mail has nothing to do with my question. mdns or LLMNR are not widely implemented and if you bring your implementation to one of the many test events for IPv6 where your node must interoperate on the deployed implementations testing network most nodes will not respond to mdns. I am sure you can interoperate with your own nodes. But think about a network where your nodes are only say 10 out of 30 on two links. Your mdns will not work with the other nodes for IPv6LLs. My postulate is that major pain can be caused by sending to the wrong IPv6LL in a multilink scenario if the packet goes to the wrong link. How does the user know to specify applicationname FE80::1%ethernet0, ethernnet1, etc.? Because of this potential conflict today it needs to be documented publicly. That does not mean in worst case scenarios of no router and no assigned prefix for ad hoc network IPv6LLs cannot be used but rather some serious thought should go into their use by what I call mission critical applications. > If you try to remove IPv6LL you will get push back from the industry. in I am 100% against removal of IPv6LLs nor did I ever say that in any mail. > If you try to deprecate APIs, such as removing the scope id, > when there > is no clear reason why, you will get push back. I am 100% against deprecating scope id from the Base API that would be stupid. > This working > group may > do these things to satisfy the loud and obnoxious people on the list. This will not happen in this working group and I did not hear one person on this list state either of these statements, so if you can show me the mail where someone said this I will know I have missed that as I did not read any such mail on this thread to my knowledge? I am not going to participate here in the discussion regarding address use nor was it what my mail was about, but Keith's points are all correct in my opinion regarding tomorrows use of IPv6, and the downsides of not using global adddresses for general applications. I am quite familiar with ad hoc networks in depth and I have seen IPv6LLs used in specific cases some have pointed out here. That is why I know a fatal error can happen if boundaries are not understood for IPv6LLs and their use cases. Those boundaries and use cases will be recorded publicly but not from here in the IETF and now I am convinced of that from this mail thread. When and if mdns or LLMNR become widely implemented then that may solve some of the issues. All protocols have warts and some more than others that does not mean we don't use them, but we must document those warts. /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 22 22:42:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N5ghU3022525; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N5ggvX022524; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N5gdU3022517 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N5dmV7028310 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (zmamail03.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N5dh5w012933 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail03.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB98BAB7; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:39:29 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:39:28 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CF@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] Thread-Index: AcNo1+g8SyCnA40QQCmz6ND9nGioTAAXD+Jg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Mika Liljeberg" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Aug 2003 05:39:29.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBC1AF50:01C36938] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7N5gdU3022518 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mika, > As there appears to be some opposition to using IPv6LL for application > level connectivity in ad hoc situations, I would like to ask the WG > what is considered the best alternative and why people think that: Most opposition is not documenting or making clear the problems that can occur from IPvLL use and right now I only see one. Duplicate IPv6LLs on two links for a multihomed node. We document security potential issues and we should do so for other functions too. That is all I am stating. But that can be done out of the IETF. > > 1) Use whatever routable address it may have configured earlier? > > A node that finds itself in an ad-hoc situation might continue > using it's PA address for ad-hoc connectivity. This avoids > having multiple addresses per interface which might confuse > applications, but there are some problems as well. Unless the > address is permanent it will eventually expire and leave the > node without an address. The PA address assignment is also > accompanied with topology dependent routing information > (on-link > prefix, default routers, any other routes) each of which have > their own associated expiration times. These might prevent the > node from communicating with other nodes in the > ad-hoc context, > causing it to send packets towards a non-existent router > instead. I believe that is what Neighbor Unreachable Detection (NUD) is for to help prevent that problem but that will work with IPv6LLs too and transparent to address scope. > > 2) Use non-routable PI? > > A non-routable PI address could be permanently assigned to a > node. This avoids some of the problems with the associated > routing information, as an appropriate on-link route could be > permanently installed as well. Of course this isn't all that > different from using link-local addresses, but at least the > address would be unambiguous (with some probability). > Non-(globally)routable PI's might be a good choise for routed > ad-hoc networks as well. Unambiguous address alleviates my issue for ad hoc networks. If a node has a greater than IPv6LL it should use that address. If it does not and the application can support a command line input of IPv6LLs then that is what must be done. IPv6LLs are not in the DNS. See default address selection by the stack below. > > 3) Use something else? If there is no router or dhcpv6 server there are few choices. > > What exactly? Pros and cons? > > Our customer base is of the type that doesn't appreciate having to jog > the switch in order to make the thing start, so requiring any manual > intervention from the user is out of the question. The devices have to > be able to transition between connected and ad-hoc states quickly, > without undue fuss and with absolutely no guidance from the user. > Having applications sometimes break because the necessary > connectivity is lost is understood and acceptable. This must > not happen due to IP layer problems, however, if the > necessary link layer connections exist. Applications can default to let the stack select the address and if link-local is all that is there then that is what will be used. But, if that address is IPv6LL on a multilink node how does the stack choose the link, how does it know which link? That is the problem. It can select the most recent IPv6LL communications, and then round robin if Destination Unreachable happens, but worst case scenario is the packet is delivered to the wrong node on the wrong link, because the stack guessed wrong. This problem persists even if all the Neighbor Advertisements received from each link were recorded with the sin6_scope_ID. It doesn't help the default link to select as destination in the stack or if it is input on a command line. In mission critical networks where that error can happen the solution is to use a link-unicast-global address that will not be ambiguous on the ad hoc network pre-configured to be used by each node when there is no router on the link. The moment a router advertisement is heard all nodes in this ad hoc network stop using the link-unicast-global address, begin picking up the prefix advertised. That is what the Hinden draft provides from my view. If it is not mission critical then not worrying about it has pretty good odds that if the worst case happens then the pain is not great enough for the user to preconfigure the link-local-global addresses. But regardless documenting it is important. /jim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 00:33:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N7XdU3024608; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7N7XdM9024607; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7N7XaU3024600 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7N7UhUu004102 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7N7Ub5w005386 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7N7X6Bu026890; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:33:06 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7N7X4I5026889; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:33:04 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: RE: Addressing in ad-hoc scenarios [IPV6LL] From: Mika Liljeberg To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CF@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CF@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1061623984.20126.183.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 23 Aug 2003 10:33:04 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2003-08-23 at 08:39, Bound, Jim wrote: > Most opposition is not documenting or making clear the problems that can > occur from IPvLL use and right now I only see one. Duplicate IPv6LLs on > two links for a multihomed node. We document security potential issues > and we should do so for other functions too. That is all I am stating. > But that can be done out of the IETF. Ok, and I agree. Thanks for making your position clear on that. It has been pointed out before that LLMNR falls back on advertising link-local addresses when nothing else is available and, with a proper API, it also disambiguates the addresses on multihomed nodes. This is far from perfect and most probably not suited for anything mission-critical. It does help in the cases where no connectivity would otherwise exist at all, however. For non-mission critical things, consumer devices that are likely to find themselves in various ad-hoc scenarios, having this fallback is a good thing. I suppose my question was really aimed at finding out whether it would be a good policy to configure such devices with an additional fallback address, such as a non-routable PI, rather than directly falling back on the link-local address. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 12:41:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NJfgU3010872; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NJfgPs010871; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NJfcU3010864 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NJcjUu015598 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NJcdZu017688 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3498) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:38:37 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:36:59 -0700 Message-ID: <015f01c369ad$ebc327c0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030822210621.0e66f8f6.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > L3 makes routing look flat to the end systems. That's its > job - to steer packets through the network. The network is > aware of topology so that end systems don't have to be. Step back from the trees and notice the forest. The L3 attachment point of each end system is part of the topology information. Both end sytems are required to know that part of the topology. That is the only part of the topology they are required to know. > > Of course the original design of IP routing expected end > systems to be more-or-less fixed relative to the network. > It's true that mobile/nomadic systems aren't well-served by > traditional IP routing. That's why people are working on > mobile IP. People have to work on mobile IP, because there is nothing to isolate the app from changes in the topology attachment point. If there had been a session layer between the app and transport, there would be no issue with changing attachment points or failure restoration through an alternate prefix. > It's also true that ad hoc networks aren't well > served by traditional IP routing mechanisms. Still, these > are properly L3 functionality, even if they're not well > served by existing mechanisms. The issue in the ad-hoc network is the limitation of a single address per interface, coupled with apps being directly glued to transport. There is no way for the topology attachment points to compensate for network realities without impacting the app when they are forced to use one value at a time. Allowing multiple addresses to exist mitigates some of the impacts of topology change. > > > That only happens because the app > > has the illusion of a stable session identifier that it > derived from > > L3 information that was valid at one point in time. > > The design of both IPv4 and IPv6 uses addresses as both > endpoint identifiers (hence their use in TCP) and locators. > This was (and still IMHO is) a reasonable compromise for > hosts with fixed locations. For mobile or nomadic hosts you > need to seperate them somehow. It was never reasonable for fixed hosts, as even you admit that there is no way to sort out multiple interfaces. Much of the baggage in BGP is there to compensate for the inability of apps to deal with multiple addresses having different reachability characteristics. > ... > If there are no other address available, the network is > dysfunctional. This might be an acceptable condition for a > test bench, say, or while debugging a network that is broken, > or to support a few very specific apps. It's not an > acceptable condition for normal operation. This is reality for a network where 2 nodes share a link technology and there is no infrastructure node to provide an RA to indicate any other prefixes. You may consider it dysfunctional for the apps you want to build, but others have apps they are building to solve the lack-of-technical-clue, zero-infrastructure case. As long as there is a clear flag to indicate LL, you should have no problem ignoring them. > > > With other options available, > > the app should have the opportunity to decide which it wants to use > > based on it operational characteristics and goals. Either > way the app > > needs a flag to indicate what it is dealing with. > > I'll certainly agree that as long as v6LL's exist, it's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So your goal is to kill LL's??? > important to be able > to distinguish them from real addresses. But this doesn't > make them suitable > for general use. If an address does not meet the needs of the application, use the provided flag to ignore it. Trying to prevent others from using a technology that solves their problem is simply being obstructionist. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 12:53:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NJr6U3011087; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NJr6JJ011086; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NJr1U3011076 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NJo8Uu018957 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NJk1ij001113 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:46:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF85141A5; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10512-04; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A5414069; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:44:11 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030823154411.081ca649.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <015f01c369ad$ebc327c0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030822210621.0e66f8f6.moore@cs.utk.edu> <015f01c369ad$ebc327c0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I don't think the list is served any longer by carrying on this discusion in public, so I'll reply privately... On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:36:59 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > L3 makes routing look flat to the end systems. That's its > > job - to steer packets through the network. The network is > > aware of topology so that end systems don't have to be. > > Step back from the trees and notice the forest. The L3 attachment point of > each end system is part of the topology information. Both end sytems are > required to know that part of the topology. That is the only part of the > topology they are required to know. [...etc...] -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 13:15:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NKFeU3011757; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NKFekH011756; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NKFbU3011749 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NKCiV7026811 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NKCcZu002038 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4932) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:12:37 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bound, Jim'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:10:56 -0700 Message-ID: <016301c369b2$aa6a6360$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CB@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7NKFbU3011750 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bound, Jim wrote: > The fact is that the WG believes this is important > discussion. It is an important discussion. There is a very critical architectural point here, and it is being glossed over by 'the sky is falling' claims that apps might fail, or have to do some work. The architectural point is that IPv6 nodes support simultaneous use of multiple dynamically acquired addresses per interface. This is a distinct value over the capabilities of IPv4, as many failure modes arise from the inflexibility of a single address at a time. The reality of the network is that different nodes will have different perspectives of reachability for any given address. Some consider this dysfunctional, others consider it a feature. In any case, as long as we provide a flag to indicate when there is a reachability discrepancy (intentional or an artifact of network dynamics), there is an opportunity to prioritize the list to achieve the app goals. > Whether Mr. Hain likes it or not. There are arguments that apps should not ever be aware of topology. I completely agree. Whether you like it or not, the current attachment point of the end systems is topology information. If the apps require input of, or choose to reach down and grab the attachment topology information to pass to a peer, they have violated the premise that they don't know anything about topology. This is not a function of my likes or dislikes, it is a simple matter of technical fact. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 13:52:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NKqfU3012455; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NKqfEa012454; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NKqbU3012447 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NKniUu004172 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NKncCN019106 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:49:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742EF1400C; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18182-10; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E6B13FAE; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:47:48 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030823164748.4655f084.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <016301c369b2$aa6a6360$63124104@eagleswings> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CB@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <016301c369b2$aa6a6360$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:10:56 -0700 "Tony Hain" wrote: > Bound, Jim wrote: > > The fact is that the WG believes this is important > > discussion. > > It is an important discussion. There is a very critical architectural point > here, and it is being glossed over by 'the sky is falling' claims that apps > might fail, or have to do some work. Tony, It's become clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 14:37:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLb7U3013082; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NLb70S013081; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLb3U3013074 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NLYAV7017388 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NLY5Zu005647 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4415) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:33:59 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:32:13 -0700 Message-ID: <017101c369be$073a7480$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030823164748.4655f084.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7NLb4U3013075 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > The fact is that the WG believes this is important > > > discussion. > > > > It is an important discussion. There is a very critical > architectural > > point here, and it is being glossed over by 'the sky is falling' > > claims that apps might fail, or have to do some work. > > Tony, > > It's become clear that you don't know what you're talking about. On the contrary, I know exactly what I am talking about. The point of attachment to the topology is topology information. Sounding alarms when apps fail due to being passed incomplete topology information is nothing more than claiming the sky is falling. Jim's example scenario was about passing LL's as literals to an app. LL's are topology information about the current point of attachment. The complaint was that the app would fail if it was not passed complete topology information, by specifing which link the target was connected to. Your favorite examples are about multi-party referrals of topology attachment points. Since we agree that the apps don't and shouldn't have complete topology information, we also agree apps will fail when there is an inconsistency in reachability for any topology attachment points passed as literal values. Yet you continue to insist that passing around incomplete topology information is not only valid, it is an inherent right of all application programmers for all time. It is fine for you to have that view. It is not fine when you use that view to prevent someone else from having a different view about how apps should deal with the topological reality of inconsistency. The network is not a flat, ubiquitous, consistent environment, so passing around points of attachment to the topology is a failing mode of operation. Insisting that we optimize for the fantasy scenario of flat and consistent ubiquity, is not helping us deliver useful technologies. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 14:39:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLdVU3013148; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NLdUFr013147; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLdPU3013133 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NLaVUu015651 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NLaQ5w026267 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:36:25 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvAAAJH9UAAAJx1gAABlh6AATmYNQA== From: "Michel Py" To: "Bound, Jim" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7NLdPU3013134 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Jim Bound wrote: > What was my point of compromise for SLs in that past > discussion before this wise WG consensus deprecated > them? Ok age happens I will respond :--). PUT > CONTROLS ON THEM SO THEY DON'T EVER LEAVE A SITE AND > AGREE TO THE RULES FOR THE SITE BORDER ROUTERS. But > nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......folks wanted to > leave that open "just in case" ergo support for > free-for-all (I was never sure just in case for what) > and I will stop there. > There are times we need to leave things open ended > SLs or LLs are not one of them in my opinion. I agree, but this does not justify using a cure that is worse than the disease. SLs are bad, what are we getting insead? IPv6 swamp and NAT. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 14:55:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLtwU3013586; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NLtwTY013585; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NLtrU3013575 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NLr0V7021747 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NLmxij018529 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70DB141F3; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26837-08; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A81141F2; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:47:08 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, rdroms@cisco.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030823174708.36542cc5.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <017101c369be$073a7480$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030823164748.4655f084.moore@cs.utk.edu> <017101c369be$073a7480$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > It is an important discussion. There is a very critical architectural > > > point here, and it is being glossed over by 'the sky is falling' claims > > > that apps might fail, or have to do some work. > > > > It's become clear that you don't know what you're talking about. > > On the contrary, I know exactly what I am talking about. No you don't. You've never written a multiparty app that has to cope with the conditions you are trying to impose on apps. If you had, you wouldn't be dismissing the extra complexity required to do this as "some work" and you wouldn't be dismissing the problems as Chicken Little claims. For better or worse, the current TCP/IP architecture uses IP addresses as both attachment names and endpoint names. That might be unfortunate, but you can't fix this by dismissing the use of IP addresses as endpoint names as inappropriate, declaring that the network no longer has to provide a coherent, uniform view of addressing, and pretending that any lack of coherency in the network is now the apps' problem to solve. Moving the problem from layer 3 to layer 7 doesn't solve it; it makes it more difficult to solve. If you want to really fix this you need to create real endpoint names, provide a fast and reliable layer of indirection between these names and addresses, and change the transport protocols to allow them to use those endpoint names instead of addresses. Until those changes are made and deployed, it will continue to be perfectly reasonable for apps to pass IP addresses around, and it's the network's job to maintain a coherent view of addressing for hosts to use. Even when those changes are made, much of the responsibility for maintaining that mapping layer must still lie with the network. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 15:40:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NMeoU3014866; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NMenBB014865; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NMejU3014855 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NMbqUu000525 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NMbkK4026698 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C470E1405D; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00903-03; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E12413FD2; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:35:55 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030823183555.30e4c3d8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > SLs are bad, what are we getting insead? IPv6 swamp and NAT. it's not as if keeping SLs would have made the routing problem any easier. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 16:11:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NNBLU3015606; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7NNBK54015605; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7NNBHU3015598 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7NN8OV7010404 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7NN8IZu013512 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:08:18 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNoXXHhtTanJFSXQm+j+CGYLj+e6gAAQQUAAADbdvAAAJH9UAAAJx1gAABlh6AAWPl+sA== From: "Michel Py" To: "Jim Bound" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7NNBHU3015599 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jim, > Jim Bound wrote: > But seriously. When the parts get built as engineers we > have the responsibility to support the technical criteria > for what the user don't see in implementation and > architecture. In fact they trust us to do that. And > incorrect use of LLs I strongly believe can hurt users > as an engineer/architect and SLs are well....... That's the kind of reasoning that got you playing in the junior league and forced you to adopt your competitor's proprietary protocols. Have you configured an HP ProCurve L3 switch recently? The CLI is a very incomplete and pale attempt at copying IOS and it even incorporates some Cisco proprietary protocols such as CDP (Cisco Discovery Protocol). Your company completely missed the boat on routers and switches, please enlighten us why you think you are right this time? > But I am here to make folks like you totally miserable :--) I have a few dispositions for that myself. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 17:59:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O0xHU3018142; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O0xHMT018141; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O0xDU3018134 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O0uKUu006008 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O0uF5w015525 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:56:15 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNpsAMy3tw8v8smSO+V7rM2G+R9rQAKgQxw From: "Michel Py" To: "Tony Hain" , "Keith Moore" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7O0xEU3018135 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > If an address does not meet the needs of the application, use the > provided flag to ignore it. Trying to prevent others from using a > technology that solves their problem is simply being obstructionist. A tactic often used to stall a technology by people or organizations that can't deliver when there is ample evidence on the market place that other people or organizations can indeed deliver it. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 21:03:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O43QU3023438; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O43QRp023437; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O43NU3023430 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O40UV7027247 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyteen.hactrn.net (dsl092-066-068.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.66.68]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O40OZu011925 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hactrn.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cyteen.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873F82B0 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:00:23 -0400 (EDT) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Rob Austein Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:00:23 -0400 Message-Id: <20030824040023.873F82B0@cyteen.hactrn.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 25.16% | 40 | 25.68% | 216885 | moore@cs.utk.edu 12.58% | 20 | 14.43% | 121847 | jim.bound@hp.com 12.58% | 20 | 11.50% | 97109 | alh-ietf@tndh.net 4.40% | 7 | 5.06% | 42750 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com 4.40% | 7 | 3.85% | 32475 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com 4.40% | 7 | 3.24% | 27324 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us 3.14% | 5 | 4.24% | 35799 | bzill@microsoft.com 3.77% | 6 | 3.05% | 25734 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 1.89% | 3 | 3.57% | 30164 | aeb1@aebeard.com 2.52% | 4 | 2.13% | 17957 | chirayu@chirayu.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.94% | 16420 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com 1.89% | 3 | 1.85% | 15622 | jeroen@unfix.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.74% | 14682 | ipv6@nosense.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.59% | 13456 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com 1.89% | 3 | 1.33% | 11243 | leifj@it.su.se 1.26% | 2 | 1.90% | 16083 | jgraessley@apple.com 1.26% | 2 | 1.41% | 11921 | jordi.palet@consulintel.es 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7388 | ronald.vanderpol@rvdp.org 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7330 | alain.durand@sun.com 0.63% | 1 | 1.02% | 8575 | sasson_shuki@emc.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7047 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7014 | mailer-daemon@navy.mil 0.63% | 1 | 0.60% | 5098 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net 0.63% | 1 | 0.57% | 4792 | paf@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.56% | 4696 | benny+nospam@amorsen.dk 0.63% | 1 | 0.55% | 4644 | dean@ipnet6.org 0.63% | 1 | 0.54% | 4583 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4497 | rdroms@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4436 | nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.52% | 4377 | itojun@iijlab.net 0.63% | 1 | 0.51% | 4332 | stansley@microsoft.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3911 | itojun@itojun.org 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3852 | bmanning@isi.edu 0.63% | 1 | 0.43% | 3629 | lear@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.42% | 3541 | gene@nttmcl.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.39% | 3330 | erik.nordmark@sun.com --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 159 |100.00% | 844543 | Total Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on an at-whim basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your mileage may vary. We decline responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. If this script produces broken output, you get to keep both pieces. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 21:53:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O4r8U3024738; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O4r87a024737; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O4r5U3024730 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O4oCV7009397 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O4o7Zu002559 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O4njfR011548 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:49:40 -0700 Received: from [17.219.196.79] ([17.219.196.79]) by scv2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O4nvWI017333 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v589) In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CD@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CD@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <712C146E-D5EE-11D7-9AF7-000A959D832C@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joshua Graessley Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:50:10 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.589) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Aug 22, 2003, at 10:03 PM, Bound, Jim wrote: > mdns or LLMNR are not widely implemented and if you bring your > implementation to one of the many test events for IPv6 where your node > must interoperate on the deployed implementations testing network most > nodes will not respond to mdns. I am sure you can interoperate with > your own nodes. But think about a network where your nodes are only > say > 10 out of 30 on two links. Your mdns will not work with the other > nodes > for IPv6LLs. We are trying to push for a wider adoption of mDNS. We were trying to work with the IETF to establish it as a standard, but the working group ran it in to the ground as LLMNR to such a state that we can not use it. We continue working on mDNS since LLMNR is in such a useless state. Our implementation of mDNS can be built on many platforms. We feel that mDNS combined with IPv6LL addresses make for a very powerful solution to the problems of local communication on both configured and unconfigured networks. > My postulate is that major pain can be caused by sending to the wrong > IPv6LL in a multilink scenario if the packet goes to the wrong link. > How does the user know to specify applicationname FE80::1%ethernet0, > ethernnet1, etc.? On our implementation, if the scope is not specified the transmit fails. I think it results in a no route to host error. This means that the scope id must be specified for a link-local address. In the case of mDNS, this is automatic. In the case of manually typing an address, the user must append the scope id to the IPv6LL address (i.e. fe80::123%en0). Some browsers choke on this, treating the % as an escape character. Most browsers handle this correctly when the IPv6 address is correctly bracketed by '[' and ']'. > Because of this potential conflict today it needs to be documented > publicly. > > That does not mean in worst case scenarios of no router and no assigned > prefix for ad hoc network IPv6LLs cannot be used but rather some > serious > thought should go into their use by what I call mission critical > applications. Suggesting that applications should avoid IPv6LLs at all cost is silly. IPv6LLs will work transparently with the vast majority of existing applications. Applications that have special requirements (those transmitting an address in a packet) will need to filter out such addresses for any destination that may potentially be off link. Those applications may also need to remember the interface packets were received on in the case of an IPv6LL being forwarded to another node on the same link, just as our mDNSResponder and resolver libraries do. This is not a difficult concept to grasp nor is the code very complicated. I'm surprised it has sparked such a heated debate. -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 21:58:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O4wLU3024967; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O4wLn2024966; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O4wGU3024954 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O4tNUu005743 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O4tI5w020313 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B29E1409D; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03010-14; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DA413FE7; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:53:26 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, alh-ietf@tndh.net, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030824005326.7818734a.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > If an address does not meet the needs of the application, use the > > provided flag to ignore it. Trying to prevent others from using a > > technology that solves their problem is simply being obstructionist. > > A tactic often used to stall a technology by people or organizations > that can't deliver when there is ample evidence on the market place that > other people or organizations can indeed deliver it. First of all, if a vendor is trying to hawk equipment that encourages inappropriate use of link-local, then there's no way in Hell that IETF should be endorsing such equipment, and this makes it all the more important that this technique be denounced in the strongest possible terms. (and I have no knowledge of such equipment, but it would explain an awful lot of the brain damaged statements that have been made here.) And if you are claiming that I have ANYTHING at all to do with promoting ANY vendor's products, then you are WAY out of line, and I demand an apology. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 22:03:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O53qU3025229; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O53qjc025228; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O53mU3025221 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O50tUu007299 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (nutcracker.wtf.stacken.kth.se [130.237.237.2]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O4v6ij021395 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: by nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (Postfix, from userid 913) id C316BF3C1E; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:56:56 +0200 (CEST) To: "Tony Hain" Cc: "'Keith Moore'" , , , Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Love_H=F6rnquist_=C5strand?= References: <017101c369be$073a7480$63124104@eagleswings> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:56:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <017101c369be$073a7480$63124104@eagleswings> (Tony Hain's message of "Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:32:13 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Tony Hain" writes: > Yet you continue to insist that passing around incomplete topology > information is not only valid, it is an inherent right of all application > programmers for all time. It is fine for you to have that view. It is not > fine when you use that view to prevent someone else from having a differe= nt > view about how apps should deal with the topological reality of > inconsistency. The network is not a flat, ubiquitous, consistent > environment, so passing around points of attachment to the topology is a > failing mode of operation. Insisting that we optimize for the fantasy > scenario of flat and consistent ubiquity, is not helping us deliver useful > technologies. Its something I can't put my finger on, but the though keep reapparing in my mind. You seem to say you use address and scope to talk to other nodes. What is scope ? An integer ? An bit string ? A lamdba that evaluated somewhere ? How is scoped compared ? How is scoped stored on network ? What is the lifetime of a scope ? How is a scope a and a adress passed to a nohter node ? How is scope and addresses handled in your name to address system ? Love --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (NetBSD) iQEVAwUAP0hFmHW+NPVfDpmCAQLCrwf8D6oemeVyFZgqVIZmsQTw0AwfD2ud8rMe C1Fu55fqHnrZNrlYJBrx7OX3+bivcrPvbL1b4Y4ZslnT+UTNIpoh7eVS8QuR5Jda JUubtYGSqPjea2WeukEgbGbbfOiF/ztuTxv/ASSbTSa4+7oTzyITPJ4ky+CMxpTn oy6TZ5OJblcf/ojY0WQVX3qBRCvf7qZ0QFn3eZ0LT+NecmipwgzWhr6EAyh0Um8x 7STRHV/aQ71o6NLrmfGYOTFe0mO5wtifdA/iOHsfZz5phSUIrTy4VQWMwADrAMxw tK4X2wY+J6Xn7/NHtvdWlNO1Bm5BoLGumfjb+ON3ek4nlDrvuxO9LQ== =X1Dr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 22:19:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O5JsU3025914; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O5JsfS025913; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O5JoU3025906 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O5GvV7016400 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O5GpW9028863 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:16:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB4714017; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18221-10; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E6013FE7; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:15:00 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Joshua Graessley Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030824011500.7d5cfff4.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <712C146E-D5EE-11D7-9AF7-000A959D832C@apple.com> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D17CD@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <712C146E-D5EE-11D7-9AF7-000A959D832C@apple.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Suggesting that applications should avoid IPv6LLs at all cost is silly. suggesting that apps in general can use IPv6LLs is also silly. OTOH, promoting the use of mDNS and LLs for IPv6 is criminally irresponsible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 23 22:28:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O5SgU3026308; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O5SgEY026307; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O5ScU3026300 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O5PkUu013837 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O5Pe5w001882 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:21 -0700 Received: from 157.54.8.109 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:41 -0700 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:16 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:42 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:57 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:25:38 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com thread-index: AcNp9bK3aXsvd6cJTbKhV5rcFFr2qgACaexY From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Rob Austein" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2003 05:25:57.0999 (UTC) FILETIME=[32B84FF0:01C36A00] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7O5SdU3026301 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I had to take time off this list, and thus had the privilege of reading one week of back up mail. I suggest that most of the participants in this discussions should (1) relax, (2) read the last week of email, and (3) realize that this discussion is both not productive and not funny. -- Christian Huitema ________________________________ From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com on behalf of Rob Austein Sent: Sat 8/23/2003 9:00 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 25.16% | 40 | 25.68% | 216885 | moore@cs.utk.edu 12.58% | 20 | 14.43% | 121847 | jim.bound@hp.com 12.58% | 20 | 11.50% | 97109 | alh-ietf@tndh.net 4.40% | 7 | 5.06% | 42750 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com 4.40% | 7 | 3.85% | 32475 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com 4.40% | 7 | 3.24% | 27324 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us 3.14% | 5 | 4.24% | 35799 | bzill@microsoft.com 3.77% | 6 | 3.05% | 25734 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 1.89% | 3 | 3.57% | 30164 | aeb1@aebeard.com 2.52% | 4 | 2.13% | 17957 | chirayu@chirayu.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.94% | 16420 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com 1.89% | 3 | 1.85% | 15622 | jeroen@unfix.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.74% | 14682 | ipv6@nosense.org 1.89% | 3 | 1.59% | 13456 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com 1.89% | 3 | 1.33% | 11243 | leifj@it.su.se 1.26% | 2 | 1.90% | 16083 | jgraessley@apple.com 1.26% | 2 | 1.41% | 11921 | jordi.palet@consulintel.es 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7388 | ronald.vanderpol@rvdp.org 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7330 | alain.durand@sun.com 0.63% | 1 | 1.02% | 8575 | sasson_shuki@emc.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7047 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7014 | mailer-daemon@navy.mil 0.63% | 1 | 0.60% | 5098 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net 0.63% | 1 | 0.57% | 4792 | paf@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.56% | 4696 | benny+nospam@amorsen.dk 0.63% | 1 | 0.55% | 4644 | dean@ipnet6.org 0.63% | 1 | 0.54% | 4583 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4497 | rdroms@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4436 | nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.52% | 4377 | itojun@iijlab.net 0.63% | 1 | 0.51% | 4332 | stansley@microsoft.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3911 | itojun@itojun.org 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3852 | bmanning@isi.edu 0.63% | 1 | 0.43% | 3629 | lear@cisco.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.42% | 3541 | gene@nttmcl.com 0.63% | 1 | 0.39% | 3330 | erik.nordmark@sun.com --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 159 |100.00% | 844543 | Total Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on an at-whim basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your mileage may vary. We decline responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. If this script produces broken output, you get to keep both pieces. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 01:21:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8LeU3000120; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O8Ld3k000119; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8LZU3000110 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O8IgV7017259 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:18:42 -0700 (PDT) From: kessler@eng.sun.com Received: from SERVER-B ([211.160.164.35]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O8IZCN008589 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308240818.h7O8IZCN008589@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> To: Subject: Re: Thank you! Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:18:47 +0800 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_16128AAF" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_16128AAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the attached file for details --_NextPart_000_16128AAF-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 01:32:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8WFU3000587; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O8WFAl000586; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8WBU3000574 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O8THUu026243 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paf.se (argc.paf.se [195.66.31.71]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O8TB5w009695 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.1) with PIPE id 1126452; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:32:47 +0200 Received: from localhost [127.0.0.1] by argc.paf.se with SpamAssassin (2.55 1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp); Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:32:45 +0200 From: kessler@eng.sun.com To: Subject: Re: Thank you! 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Content preview: This is a multipart message in MIME format See the attached file for details IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (5.70 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100 (1.2 points) BODY: Razor2 gives a spam confidence level between 91 and 100 [cf: 100] RAZOR2_CHECK (0.9 points) Listed in Razor2, see http://razor.sf.net/ MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. If you wish to view it, it may be safer to save it to a file and open it with an editor. ------------=_3F48782D.2FD31CBE Content-Type: message/rfc822; x-spam-type=original Content-Description: original message before SpamAssassin Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Envelope-To: eva@tibbir.se X-Spam-Status: SpamAssassin Failed Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1) with ESMTP id 1126451 for eva@tibbir.se; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:32:07 +0200 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.21]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O8Lt5w007105; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O8J9Vf017348; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8LeU3000120; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O8Ld3k000119; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O8LZU3000110 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O8IgV7017259 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:18:42 -0700 (PDT) From: kessler@eng.sun.com Received: from SERVER-B ([211.160.164.35]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O8IZCN008589 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308240818.h7O8IZCN008589@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> To: Subject: Re: Thank you! Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:18:47 +0800 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_16128AAF" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_16128AAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the attached file for details --_NextPart_000_16128AAF-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F48782D.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 02:48:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9mVU3002432; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O9mVHb002431; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9mSU3002424 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O9jYV7009886 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O9ZpZu020142 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7O9Zah13969; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:35:36 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4886E7.4090603@it.su.se> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:35:35 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: Fred Templin , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <20030822215316.3e200de8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030822215316.3e200de8.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:15 -0700 >Fred Templin wrote: > > > >>Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an >>IPv6 wg item (see below)? >> >> > >what does it mean to do this? > > I'd also like an answer to this question. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 02:57:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9v6U3002685; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O9v6d0002683; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9v0U3002669 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O9s7V7012148 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slimsixten.besserwisser.org ([130.208.77.12]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O9rxK4008187 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:54:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.besserwisser.org (mansaxel@localhost.besserwisser.org [127.0.0.1]) by slimsixten.besserwisser.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7O9sONG024482 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:54:33 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E5ns_Nilsson?= To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <489260000.1061646873@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (OpenBSD/x86) X-PGP-KEY: http://vvv.besserwisser.org/key MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========2447287794==========" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --==========2447287794========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --On Friday, August 22, 2003 14:35:15 -0700 Fred Templin wrote: > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? It smells of something we've already decided to reject (not as draft but as idea.) so I am for accepting it as a wg item in order to be able to kill it again.=20 --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead. --==========2447287794========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (OpenBSD) iD8DBQE/R3IZ02/pMZDM1cURAheRAKCD2ciK5IilRIlh739s59sU9rCI7ACfT5rq nmIxW7ebxrOB9IlZuRsBzPU= =pG96 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========2447287794==========-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 02:57:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9v6U3002684; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7O9v6M4002682; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7O9v0U3002668 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7O9s7Uu010985 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slimsixten.besserwisser.org ([130.208.77.12]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7O9rxK4008186 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:54:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.besserwisser.org (mansaxel@localhost.besserwisser.org [127.0.0.1]) by slimsixten.besserwisser.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7O9sONE024482 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:54:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:11:20 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E5ns_Nilsson?= To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-ID: <453980000.1061644280@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F45CE61.22EA850E@motorola.com> References: <20030821095619.595427d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F451DC5.70203@iprg.nokia.com> <20030821155119.62c934cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F45CE61.22EA850E@motorola.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.1 (OpenBSD/x86) X-PGP-KEY: http://vvv.besserwisser.org/key MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========2168896916==========" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --==========2168896916========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --On Friday, August 22, 2003 18:03:45 +1000 Andrew White wrote: > * Applications should not assume that all addresses are equal. Do not mention the war. It is over.=20 --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead. --==========2168896916========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (OpenBSD) iD8DBQE/R2f402/pMZDM1cURAkDbAJ42lLH+8gDPsESUKtnAb69gDhYAWgCfcWgY gNjGwZ+lQI6Yyu1FgvkkxDA= =KlUy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========2168896916==========-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 03:39:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OAd7U3003920; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OAd7i2003919; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OAd4U3003912 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OAaCV7012673 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OAWeij001256 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:32:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7OAWcr32731 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:32:39 +0300 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:32:37 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, As some others have also commented, I have serious concerns about the hain/templin draft. An observation: This document seems to take for granted that local-use addressing is needed. Moreover, it lists requirements for every possible case where local-use address could be applied to (and, not for example, those cases where the local-use addressing is really necessary). Process questions: 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the requirements for local addressing? 2. Then if we see that local addressing is required to do X, see that this document covers X adequately? 3. Not consider those not listed in the sum-of-all-X at all? (or at least, make the separation what scenarios require specific features clearer)? I don't send in more detailed comments on the draft, because I pretty much disagree with everything it says. If we explicitly make the decision that local-use addressing is needed in some scenarios, I might accept that and review it again with that in mind. Just two notes: 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical experience has shown, that there is a need for addresses that do not require public registration." ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague statements. Please be more explicit as I don't see how we can take this for given. 3.2 "Applications require addresses that remain stable during intermittent connectivity, site mergers, ..." ==> it is not clear what you mean with stability, i.e. what the _real_ requirement is. Connection survibability, or something else? On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Fred Templin wrote: > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > Subject: > I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > From: > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Date: > Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:13 -0400 > > To: > IETF-Announce: ; > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Addressing Requirements for Local Communications > within Sites > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > Pages : 19 > Date : 2003-8-14 > > The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use > unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational guidelines or > requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > addressing to support local communications within sites. Of special > interest are 'active sites', e.g., sites that are > intermittently-connected or disconnected from the global Internet, > sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, sites > that temporarily or permanently merge with other sites, multi-homed > sites, etc. This memo will discuss addressing requirements for local > communications within sites. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 06:59:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ODxqU3016010; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7ODxpMw016009; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7ODxkU3015991 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7ODusV7009767 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7ODumK4005924 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 07:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3094414431; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08685-05; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07D9141FF; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:54:55 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Pekka Savola Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Message-Id: <20030824095455.61f5d42b.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local replacement > (and other issues) and not jump straight to the requirements for local > addressing? even that seems to me to be asking the question in terms of an assumed answer. I want to see the questions asked in terms of real problems, not in terms of assumed solutions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 09:12:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OGCiU3024892; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OGCiDG024891; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OGCeU3024884 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OG9lV7016893 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HARI1 (bgm-24-24-94-61.stny.rr.com [24.24.94.61]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OG9cCN027431 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:09:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308241609.h7OG9cCN027431@brmea-mail-3.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Thank you! 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administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 09:31:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OGV0U3026543; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OGV0si026542; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OGUtU3026529 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OGS3V7022042 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paf.se (argc.paf.se [195.66.31.71]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABdAAAA WEMwMDE4MTVkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB1AAAAWEMwMDE4MTVkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKMBAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_03CE31F6-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F48E85F.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 11:53:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OIrhU3005196; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OIrhj8005192; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OIraU3005168 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OIoZUu002266 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OIoU5w024146 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:50:29 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNp++q5ScgBXb3UQuebqzAPGo4PJQAc4frA From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Tony Hain" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OIraU3005169 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> Tony Hain Wrote: >>> If an address does not meet the needs of the application, >>> use the provided flag to ignore it. Trying to prevent others >>> from using a technology that solves their problem is simply >>> being obstructionist. >> Michel Py wrote: >> A tactic often used to stall a technology by people or >> organizations that can't deliver when there is ample evidence >> on the market place that other people or organizations can >> indeed deliver it. > Keith Moore wrote: > And if you are claiming that I have ANYTHING at all to do with > promoting ANY vendor's products, then you are WAY out of line, > and I demand an apology. As always you don't read what other people post. Read my text again and explain me where you find the words "promoting" or "endorsement"? these are YOUR words, not mine. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 11:55:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OIthU3005282; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OIthnn005279; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OItbU3005261 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OIqjV7003691 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OIqeCN000374 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:52:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7793C13FEF; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30090-02; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B613013FEA; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:52:37 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, alh-ietf@tndh.net, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Message-Id: <20030824145237.41236656.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Keith Moore wrote: > > And if you are claiming that I have ANYTHING at all to do with > > promoting ANY vendor's products, then you are WAY out of line, > > and I demand an apology. > > As always you don't read what other people post. Read my text again > and explain me where you find the words "promoting" or "endorsement"? > these are YOUR words, not mine. actually I'm quite relieved if this was not your intent. sorry. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 13:16:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKGYU3010561; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OKGYl2010560; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKGVU3010553 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OKDcUu025634 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OKDWW9009873 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:13:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4528) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:10:30 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: Solving the right problems ... Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OKGVU3010554 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In the ongoing saga about topology reality vs. application perception of stability, it occurs to me we are not working on the right problem. In short we have established a sacred invariant in the application / transport interface, and the demands on either side of that interface are the root of conflict. Mobile IP, and the multi6 DHT work are attempts to mitigate it through slight of hand at the IP layer, while SCTP attempts to mask the topology reality in the transport layer. (These are probably not the only examples, but they are the ones that come to mind this morning.) Yet none of these really do the job in all cases. We all agree that applications should not be aware of topology. At the same time, application developers insist on the right to pass around incomplete topology information. There are arguments that the IP address is overloaded as an endpoint name. I don't particularly buy that, because the real endpoint is either a protocol, or a specific port of a protocol. From one perspective, when applications use addresses in referrals, they are specifying that routing through a particular point in the topology will reach the desired endpoint named 'transport/port-id'. But that is a semantics and perception discussion which doesn't help reach the goal. In any case, what applications need is a stable reference to other participants in the app. Yet we know that current and projected reality says that topology is not stable, or consistently reachable. This could be due to technology issues of the underlying links, or simple policy. Either way, the network as seen by the transport layer is not, and will never be stable or consistently reachable from everywhere. Given that, the direct interface with the transport layer creates a failure mode for an application expecting stability. Where this leads us is to the sacred invariant, and the need to solve the problem in the right place. I suggest it is time for the IETF to realize that the protocols are no longer being used in the network of 1985, so it is time to insert a formal stabilization layer between application & transport. Such a layer would be responsible for managing intermittent connectivity states and varying attachment points of the transport layers below. Applications that interact with this layer would be insulated from the inconsistencies being experienced by the transport layer. It would also be reasonable for this layer to manage multiple simultaneous transport interactions so that the application perceived a single data path to its peer. With appropriate trust between the stack and the network policy, this would even simplify the process of QoS markings for parallel related data sets. The next place that leads us is to a name space. At this point I see no reason to avoid using the FQDN structure, but acknowledge that the DNS as currently deployed is not even close to being up to the task. The protocols are not so much the issue as the deployment and operation model that is focused on a limited number of nodes operated by a small community of guru's, where the expectation is that any changes occur on the order of several days or longer. What we ultimately need in a name service to support the suggested layer is the capability for every consumer device with electrons in it to automatically and dynamically register its current attachment information with rapid (that doesn't mean sub-second, more along the lines of a cell phone that powers up away from its home) global convergence. As there are multiple trust boundary issues involved (because not every device will be subscribed to a service), making this scale will require pushing the database distribution out to smaller pockets. Making it reliable for Joe-sixpack will probably require that part of the infrastructure exists on his side of the interconnect & trust boundary from any other networks. Automating the attachment of a massive number of small dataset servers will probably require something with better scaling characteristics than the current DNSsec deployment model. Since many networks have usage policies established around the sacred invariant, there will need to be some recommendations on how to apply those policies to this new layer. We could even consider a protocol between this layer and a policy entity that would aggregate applications into a policy consistent with the what the network can deliver for various transport protocols. This distribution of policy awareness would have much better scaling characteristics than per app signaling, as well as the ability to locally group unrelated transports that any given app might be using. Bottom line is that we are spending lots of time and effort trying to force fit solutions into spaces where they don't work well and end up creating other problems. We are doing this simply to maintain the perception of stability up to the application, over a sacred interface to a very unstable network. Stability to the application is required, but forcing applications to have direct interaction with the transport layer is not. Yes we should continue to allow that direct interaction, but we should be clear that there are no guarantees of stability on that interface. If the application does not want to take care of connections coming and going to the same device at potentially different places, it needs to have an intermediate stabilization layer available. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 13:17:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKH0U3010578; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OKGx4U010577; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKGtU3010563 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OKE3V7028460 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OKAWij015305 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:10:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4528) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:10:30 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: Solving the right problems ... Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OKGuU3010568 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In the ongoing saga about topology reality vs. application perception of stability, it occurs to me we are not working on the right problem. In short we have established a sacred invariant in the application / transport interface, and the demands on either side of that interface are the root of conflict. Mobile IP, and the multi6 DHT work are attempts to mitigate it through slight of hand at the IP layer, while SCTP attempts to mask the topology reality in the transport layer. (These are probably not the only examples, but they are the ones that come to mind this morning.) Yet none of these really do the job in all cases. We all agree that applications should not be aware of topology. At the same time, application developers insist on the right to pass around incomplete topology information. There are arguments that the IP address is overloaded as an endpoint name. I don't particularly buy that, because the real endpoint is either a protocol, or a specific port of a protocol. From one perspective, when applications use addresses in referrals, they are specifying that routing through a particular point in the topology will reach the desired endpoint named 'transport/port-id'. But that is a semantics and perception discussion which doesn't help reach the goal. In any case, what applications need is a stable reference to other participants in the app. Yet we know that current and projected reality says that topology is not stable, or consistently reachable. This could be due to technology issues of the underlying links, or simple policy. Either way, the network as seen by the transport layer is not, and will never be stable or consistently reachable from everywhere. Given that, the direct interface with the transport layer creates a failure mode for an application expecting stability. Where this leads us is to the sacred invariant, and the need to solve the problem in the right place. I suggest it is time for the IETF to realize that the protocols are no longer being used in the network of 1985, so it is time to insert a formal stabilization layer between application & transport. Such a layer would be responsible for managing intermittent connectivity states and varying attachment points of the transport layers below. Applications that interact with this layer would be insulated from the inconsistencies being experienced by the transport layer. It would also be reasonable for this layer to manage multiple simultaneous transport interactions so that the application perceived a single data path to its peer. With appropriate trust between the stack and the network policy, this would even simplify the process of QoS markings for parallel related data sets. The next place that leads us is to a name space. At this point I see no reason to avoid using the FQDN structure, but acknowledge that the DNS as currently deployed is not even close to being up to the task. The protocols are not so much the issue as the deployment and operation model that is focused on a limited number of nodes operated by a small community of guru's, where the expectation is that any changes occur on the order of several days or longer. What we ultimately need in a name service to support the suggested layer is the capability for every consumer device with electrons in it to automatically and dynamically register its current attachment information with rapid (that doesn't mean sub-second, more along the lines of a cell phone that powers up away from its home) global convergence. As there are multiple trust boundary issues involved (because not every device will be subscribed to a service), making this scale will require pushing the database distribution out to smaller pockets. Making it reliable for Joe-sixpack will probably require that part of the infrastructure exists on his side of the interconnect & trust boundary from any other networks. Automating the attachment of a massive number of small dataset servers will probably require something with better scaling characteristics than the current DNSsec deployment model. Since many networks have usage policies established around the sacred invariant, there will need to be some recommendations on how to apply those policies to this new layer. We could even consider a protocol between this layer and a policy entity that would aggregate applications into a policy consistent with the what the network can deliver for various transport protocols. This distribution of policy awareness would have much better scaling characteristics than per app signaling, as well as the ability to locally group unrelated transports that any given app might be using. Bottom line is that we are spending lots of time and effort trying to force fit solutions into spaces where they don't work well and end up creating other problems. We are doing this simply to maintain the perception of stability up to the application, over a sacred interface to a very unstable network. Stability to the application is required, but forcing applications to have direct interaction with the transport layer is not. Yes we should continue to allow that direct interaction, but we should be clear that there are no guarantees of stability on that interface. If the application does not want to take care of connections coming and going to the same device at potentially different places, it needs to have an intermediate stabilization layer available. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 13:32:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKWbU3011620; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OKWaD1011617; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKWXU3011608 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OKTeV7003017 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OKTYW9013255 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:29:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3405) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:26:35 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: "'Fred Templin'" , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:24:45 -0700 Message-ID: <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4886E7.4090603@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OKWXU3011610 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > >On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:15 -0700 > >Fred Templin wrote: > > > > > > > >>Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > >>item (see below)? > >> > >> > > > >what does it mean to do this? > > > > > I'd also like an answer to this question. As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 13:33:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKXDU3011646; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OKXDwu011645; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKX9U3011635 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OKUHV7003249 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OKQYij026622 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3405) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:26:35 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: "'Fred Templin'" , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:24:45 -0700 Message-ID: <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4886E7.4090603@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OKX9U3011636 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Keith Moore wrote: > > >On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:35:15 -0700 > >Fred Templin wrote: > > > > > > > >>Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > >>item (see below)? > >> > >> > > > >what does it mean to do this? > > > > > I'd also like an answer to this question. As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 13:49:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKnlU3013170; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OKnlRB013166; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OKngU3013150 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OKkoV7008119 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OKkiK4011544 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B723140AA; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11845-05; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CCA14035; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:44:50 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-Id: <20030824164450.27d84605.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <3F4886E7.4090603@it.su.se> <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > >>Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > > >>item (see below)? > > > > > >what does it mean to do this? > > As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will > be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth > publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an > RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts > where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. in that case, I don't think we should accept this as a WG document - at least, not at this time. I do accept it as valuable input, though not all input to a WG should be published as an RFC. Sometimes we publish valuable input for the historical record, and that's a good thing to do as long as it's properly labelled. The time to decide on publication for that reason should be after the group has reached consensus on technical mechanisms. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 14:10:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLALU3014744; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OLALP6014743; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLAIU3014735 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OL7PUu012364 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OL3mij022435 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:03:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7OL3Xh15145; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:03:35 +0200 Message-ID: <3F492824.2090104@it.su.se> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:03:32 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Keith Moore'" , "'Fred Templin'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <020c01c36a7d$c27db3a0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >Leif Johansson wrote: > > >>I'd also like an answer to this question. >> >> > >As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will >be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth > I don't believe that it is possible to turn the current draft into a requirements document which does not assume the outcome. Given your reply to my question I oppose the publication of this draft as a wg document. >publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an >RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts >where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. > > > Imo, you are wrong about the merit of wg status. There are several examples in the IETF of good work beeing done as individual submission drafts. Its not the filename, its what you write that matters. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 14:17:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLH9U3015125; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OLH9j7015122; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLH5U3015113 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OLECV7016315 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OLE6W9023456 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:14:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3267) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:11:04 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Pekka Savola'" , Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:09:14 -0700 Message-ID: <021001c36a83$f95fa1c0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OLH5U3015114 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > As some others have also commented, I have serious concerns about the > hain/templin draft. Thank you for providing constructive text, rather than simply complaining. > > An observation: > > This document seems to take for granted that local-use addressing is > needed. Moreover, it lists requirements for every possible > case where > local-use address could be applied to (and, not for example, > those cases > where the local-use addressing is really necessary). Necessity is both the perception of the network manager in trying to implement a local policy, and the availability of alternatives that actually fit all of the local constraints. > > Process questions: > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > requirements for local addressing? I don't understand the question. My original draft started from the premise that the WG should at least have the requirements for local addressing before deciding that any given technology is either acceptable or unacceptable. Site-local is a specific technology that meets many of the needs of local addressing, but creates other problems through its ambiguity. Getting rid of ambiguity does not remove the requirements for local addressing. > > 2. Then if we see that local addressing is required to do X, > see that > this document covers X adequately? If the goal is to design specific approaches for every scenario, then this suggestion would be appropriate. The goal of the requirements document at the moment is to aggregate multiple needs under a single technical approach. If the WG decides that multiple approaches make more sense, then there will need to be multiple requirements documents. > > 3. Not consider those not listed in the sum-of-all-X at all? (or at > least, make the separation what scenarios require specific features > clearer)? I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I think this is a continuation of 2. > > I don't send in more detailed comments on the draft, because > I pretty much > disagree with everything it says. I understand your network does not have these requirements, and if we required everyone to implement local addresses I could understand some degree of concern. What I don't understand is why you believe it is appropriate to tell another network manager that his stated requirements are invalid. > If we explicitly make the > decision that > local-use addressing is needed in some scenarios, I might > accept that and > review it again with that in mind. See 2 above. > > Just two notes: > > 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical experience has > shown, that there is a need for addresses that do not require public > registration." > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > statements. > Please be more explicit as I don't see how we can take this for given. Chasing down quotes is not appropriate. If you want to see more text about people grabbing random space from documentation or currently using 1./8, I suspect we can come up with that. > > 3.2 "Applications require addresses that remain stable during > intermittent connectivity, site mergers, ..." > ==> it is not clear what you mean with stability, i.e. what > the _real_ > requirement is. Connection survibability, or something else? See my note this morning about solving the right problem. Applications frequently fail if the addresses are changed out from under them. This is not a requirement, but a fact supported by empirical evidence. The real requirement is that local applications continue to function even if the external connectivity is intermittent or changing. I know you have offered ways to mitigate the problem, but they all come with constraints that, while appropriate for your network environment, do not meet the needs of other networks. It appears you would rather do targeted engineering for individual scenarios. We can take that approach, and will likely end up with a variety of technologies that people then need to figure out which one(s) apply. At the same time it is very likely that there will be a suppression of many requirements, because the participants are either not vocal enough, or don't represent a large enough segment of the community to deserve valuable WG focus. Forgive me if I consider suppression of requirements to be in direct conflict with providing solutions. Tony > > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Fred Templin wrote: > > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > > item (see below)? > > > > Fred > > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > > > > Subject: > > I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > From: > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > Date: > > Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:13 -0400 > > > > To: > > IETF-Announce: ; > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > > > > > Title : Addressing Requirements for Local > Communications > > within Sites > > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > > Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > Pages : 19 > > Date : 2003-8-14 > > > > The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use > > unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational > guidelines or > > requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > > addressing to support local communications within sites. Of special > > interest are 'active sites', e.g., sites that are > > intermittently-connected or disconnected from the global Internet, > > sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, > sites that > > temporarily or permanently merge with other sites, > multi-homed sites, > > etc. This memo will discuss addressing requirements for local > > communications within sites. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedran > > ge-01.txt > > > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a > message to > > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body > of the message. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > > Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > In the body type: > > "FILE > /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > > Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 14:17:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLHXU3015142; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OLHXc3015141; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLHRU3015134 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OLEZUu014201 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OLB4ij027414 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3267) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:11:04 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Pekka Savola'" , Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:09:14 -0700 Message-ID: <021001c36a83$f95fa1c0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7OLHRU3015135 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > As some others have also commented, I have serious concerns about the > hain/templin draft. Thank you for providing constructive text, rather than simply complaining. > > An observation: > > This document seems to take for granted that local-use addressing is > needed. Moreover, it lists requirements for every possible > case where > local-use address could be applied to (and, not for example, > those cases > where the local-use addressing is really necessary). Necessity is both the perception of the network manager in trying to implement a local policy, and the availability of alternatives that actually fit all of the local constraints. > > Process questions: > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > requirements for local addressing? I don't understand the question. My original draft started from the premise that the WG should at least have the requirements for local addressing before deciding that any given technology is either acceptable or unacceptable. Site-local is a specific technology that meets many of the needs of local addressing, but creates other problems through its ambiguity. Getting rid of ambiguity does not remove the requirements for local addressing. > > 2. Then if we see that local addressing is required to do X, > see that > this document covers X adequately? If the goal is to design specific approaches for every scenario, then this suggestion would be appropriate. The goal of the requirements document at the moment is to aggregate multiple needs under a single technical approach. If the WG decides that multiple approaches make more sense, then there will need to be multiple requirements documents. > > 3. Not consider those not listed in the sum-of-all-X at all? (or at > least, make the separation what scenarios require specific features > clearer)? I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I think this is a continuation of 2. > > I don't send in more detailed comments on the draft, because > I pretty much > disagree with everything it says. I understand your network does not have these requirements, and if we required everyone to implement local addresses I could understand some degree of concern. What I don't understand is why you believe it is appropriate to tell another network manager that his stated requirements are invalid. > If we explicitly make the > decision that > local-use addressing is needed in some scenarios, I might > accept that and > review it again with that in mind. See 2 above. > > Just two notes: > > 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical experience has > shown, that there is a need for addresses that do not require public > registration." > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > statements. > Please be more explicit as I don't see how we can take this for given. Chasing down quotes is not appropriate. If you want to see more text about people grabbing random space from documentation or currently using 1./8, I suspect we can come up with that. > > 3.2 "Applications require addresses that remain stable during > intermittent connectivity, site mergers, ..." > ==> it is not clear what you mean with stability, i.e. what > the _real_ > requirement is. Connection survibability, or something else? See my note this morning about solving the right problem. Applications frequently fail if the addresses are changed out from under them. This is not a requirement, but a fact supported by empirical evidence. The real requirement is that local applications continue to function even if the external connectivity is intermittent or changing. I know you have offered ways to mitigate the problem, but they all come with constraints that, while appropriate for your network environment, do not meet the needs of other networks. It appears you would rather do targeted engineering for individual scenarios. We can take that approach, and will likely end up with a variety of technologies that people then need to figure out which one(s) apply. At the same time it is very likely that there will be a suppression of many requirements, because the participants are either not vocal enough, or don't represent a large enough segment of the community to deserve valuable WG focus. Forgive me if I consider suppression of requirements to be in direct conflict with providing solutions. Tony > > > On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Fred Templin wrote: > > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > > item (see below)? > > > > Fred > > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > > > > Subject: > > I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > From: > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > Date: > > Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:27:13 -0400 > > > > To: > > IETF-Announce: ; > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > > > > > Title : Addressing Requirements for Local > Communications > > within Sites > > Author(s) : T. Hain, F. Templin > > Filename : draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > Pages : 19 > > Date : 2003-8-14 > > > > The IPv6 addressing architecture specifies global and local-use > > unicast addressing schemes, but provides no operational > guidelines or > > requirements for their use. There is a strong requirement for > > addressing to support local communications within sites. Of special > > interest are 'active sites', e.g., sites that are > > intermittently-connected or disconnected from the global Internet, > > sites that frequently change provider points of attachment, > sites that > > temporarily or permanently merge with other sites, > multi-homed sites, > > etc. This memo will discuss addressing requirements for local > > communications within sites. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedran > > ge-01.txt > > > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a > message to > > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body > of the message. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > > Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > > In the body type: > > "FILE > /internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt". > > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > > Internet-Draft. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 14:47:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLl7U3017726; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7OLl7YR017725; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7OLl2U3017711 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7OLi9Uu023956 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7OLi4W9000406 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:44:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC4B140B8; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19742-09; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AA2140AA; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:42:08 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ietf@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Solving the right problems ... Message-Id: <20030824174208.727f4884.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> References: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [trying to keep this as brief as possible] > In the ongoing saga about topology reality vs. application perception of > stability, it occurs to me we are not working on the right problem. agree. > We all agree that applications should not be aware of topology. At the same > time, application developers insist on the right to pass around incomplete > topology information. Let's rephrase this in a less loaded way. Application developers need reasonably stable and reliable endpoint identifiers. At present, the IP address is the closest available approximation to such an identifier. Therefore apps developers don't want to give up the ability to pass these things around and expect them to work from other locations in the network, until such time as a suitable replacement is available and widely deployed. (Note that even after such a replacement exists, there will still be some apps that need to pass around locators - network management tools in particular. But they will have less need to insist that those locators be usable from other network locations.) > In any case, what applications need is a stable reference to other > participants in the app. Yet we know that current and projected reality says > that topology is not stable, or consistently reachable. agree. > Either way, the > network as seen by the transport layer is not, and will never be stable or > consistently reachable from everywhere. Given that, the direct interface > with the transport layer creates a failure mode for an application expecting > stability. > > Where this leads us is to the sacred invariant, and the need to solve the > problem in the right place. I suggest it is time for the IETF to realize > that the protocols are no longer being used in the network of 1985, so it is > time to insert a formal stabilization layer between application & transport. Disagree. The layer needs to be between the current network and transport layers. If the layer were between transport and applications, many of the services provided by transport would end up having to be re-implemented in higher layers. It would also force routing decisions to be made by layers much more distant from the network layer that maintains reachability and state information than the transport layer. > The next place that leads us is to a name space. At this point I see no > reason to avoid using the FQDN structure, but acknowledge that the DNS as > currently deployed is not even close to being up to the task. Disagree. A big part of the reason DNS is not up to the task is that its name structure is a very poor fit for this purpose. There is no need to have these names be human-meaningful or to have them delegated along the lines that DNS is delegated. There is already a lot of semantic loading of DNS names (many would say they're too overloaded already) which would strain their ability to be used in this new layer. There is a large benefit to having these names be terse and fixed-length (though perhaps not as important or useful as it is for IP addresses, and having a variable length name for endpoints would provide some additional flexibility). There is also a benefit to being able to reuse existing transport protocols in terms of these new names, though that can be finessed. Finally, using 128-bit identifiers that were API and protocol compatible with IPv6 locators (but distinguishable from them) might be very useful in smoothly transitioning existing stacks and apps. Then there's the problem that DNS's protocol and replication models aren't really a good fit either, and this hinders any effort to make it suitable for identifier-to-locator mapping. (Admittedly, if I thought that the new layer should go between transport and apps then DNS-like names would make a tad more sense.) > Since many networks have usage policies established around the sacred > invariant, there will need to be some recommendations on how to apply those > policies to this new layer. We could even consider a protocol between this > layer and a policy entity that would aggregate applications into a policy > consistent with the what the network can deliver for various transport > protocols. This distribution of policy awareness would have much better > scaling characteristics than per app signaling, as well as the ability to > locally group unrelated transports that any given app might be using. Lots of work is needed in the policy area. But being able to express policies in terms of stable and reliable host identifers, instead of expressing them exclusively in terms of attachment points or links, would help a great deal. > Bottom line is that we are spending lots of time and effort trying to force > fit solutions into spaces where they don't work well and end up creating > other problems. We are doing this simply to maintain the perception of > stability up to the application, over a sacred interface to a very unstable > network. Stability to the application is required, but forcing applications > to have direct interaction with the transport layer is not. Yes we should > continue to allow that direct interaction, but we should be clear that there > are no guarantees of stability on that interface. If the application does > not want to take care of connections coming and going to the same device at > potentially different places, it needs to have an intermediate stabilization > layer available. It appears that we agree on much of the above, especially if you leave out loaded words like "sacred". It needs to be understood that the needs of apps are legitimate, even while admitting that these needs are stretching existing network layer services beyond their capabilities. This was a constructive post. Thanks. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 24 19:13:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P2DWU3004865; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7P2DWjI004864; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P2DSU3004854 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7P2AaV7013811 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7P2AV5w018657 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:10:30 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Thread-Index: AcNqLdTWYc5QxnkPSAmJWNLHT5YBhQAf2NCw From: "Michel Py" To: "Pekka Savola" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7P2DSU3004856 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka, > Pekka Savola wrote: > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > requirements for local addressing? Do you mean that the Hain/Templin draft is too generic, or not specific enough? >> 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical >> experience has shown, that there is a need for addresses >> that do not require public registration." > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > statements. Please be more explicit as I don't see how we > can take this for given. Maybe you are too young to remember but network administrators have hijacked addresses for ages, which is one of the reasons that eventually led to RFC1597. What makes you believe that the reasons they did it in the past do not exist anymore? Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 02:21:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P9LNU3022426; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7P9LNYR022425; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P9LJU3022418 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7P9IQV7017649 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7P9IK5w011667 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7P9I6711929; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:18:07 +0300 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:18:06 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Michel Py cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Michel Py wrote: > > Pekka Savola wrote: > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > > requirements for local addressing? > > Do you mean that the Hain/Templin draft is too generic, or not specific > enough? Yes. It takes for granted that we need local-use addressing, and lists a lot of requirements for local-use addressing (some of which are most probably redundant if you'd apply local-use addressing only to *specific* scenarios). What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out where we need local-use applications -- and, as an interim feature, maybe reword the current draft so that it's apparent which current perceived local-use scenarios require specific requirements. > >> 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical > >> experience has shown, that there is a need for addresses > >> that do not require public registration." > > > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > > statements. Please be more explicit as I don't see how we > > can take this for given. > > Maybe you are too young to remember but network administrators have > hijacked addresses for ages, yep.. > which is one of the reasons that eventually > led to RFC1597. What makes you believe that the reasons they did it in > the past do not exist anymore? And what problems has this caused that are really, really problematic? If you have a disconnected network which you don't plan to connect without renumbering (which has to be done anyway), it doesn't matter if you hijack a prefix. On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a prefix for your running system. IPv6 addresses are quite obtainable nowadays if you're an equivalent of LIR. In addition, compared to the situation back in 1994 (and earlier), people actually use Routing Registries to check advertisements. You really cannot assume that you could hijack a prefix and have it work in the Internet. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 02:37:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P9bCU3022800; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7P9bBK3022799; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7P9b8U3022792 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7P9YFV7022153 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7P9YACN016002 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 03:34:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7P9Y87b028791 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (ssh-sjc-1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id ABU36412; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030824125230.04024320@funnel.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:14:53 -0400 To: From: Ralph Droms Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience In-Reply-To: <00bc01c368ca$22d961a0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 09:26 AM 8/22/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: >Ralph Droms wrote: > > Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL > > will work while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience > > with IPv4LL has been uniformly bad; I've never intentionally > > used an IPv4LL address and the automatic assignment of an > > IPv4LL address has on several (many?) occasions silently > > interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use > > greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am > > happy to hear success stories about IPv4LL. > >Not having been there when your interference issues occurred, I can only >guess that they were related to the default IPv4 perspective that an >interface only has one dynamic address at a time. In that environment it >takes explicit effort (user initiated or stack timer) to change the >available address. There is no such restriction in an IPv6 environment, so >the existence of an IPv6 LL can't interfere with global connectivity. In >fact it is much more likely that intermittent global access (such as >changing radio attachment points) would interfere with the stablility of an >app that is running locally. Certainly some of my problems with IPv4LL have resulted, as you suggest, from the restriction that an interface have just one dynamic IPv4 address at a time. I think there's more to the problem - my experience has been that the IPv4LL address is configured *silently*, so I have no expectation that the interface is configured in an unexpected way and that, because of that configuration, none of my applications will work. Perhaps the "configured silently" problem is a UI issue? I'd also like, as a UI issue I guess, the ability to turn off the configuration of IPv4LL addresses. Personally, I don't have any convenient way to use an IPv4LL address, and I'd rather not have any address configured at all than an IPv4LL address. (Note that I'm still talking about IPv4 here and not making any predictions about the availability of applications that can use IPv6LL addresses.) So, will this problem be solved in IPv6LL addressing? Will I either get some indication from the stack that "no global addresses are configured" or will applications work as usual within the constraints of the network resources that can be reached on the LL? In any event, I should be a little more precise when I say "applications can't use LL addresses". What I mean here is that the applications won't work in the way I expect. That is, I can't use DNS to identify hosts the application should communicate with, so I have to use an out of band (shout-down-the-hall?) protocol to ask "What's the address of your host" so I have an IP address to give to the application. I don't see where IPv6LL addressing works any differently in this regard than IPv4LL addressing, so I don't see how applications will work any better with IPv6LL addresses. > > I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario > > work". Just to be clear - I think I'm in the "I'd like to know how the scenario will work" camp and am trying to tease out all the pieces that have to be in place so that it can work. I don't think IPv6LL addresses taken alone are the whole story (based on my experience with IPv4LL addresses)... > I don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the > > scenario you described. We can assign IPv4LL addresses today > > in a one-link, no router ad-hoc network. But we have to > > enter the addresses manually and those addresses get in the > > way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. > > What's different with IPv6LL? > >There is no 'get in the way' limitation. Simultaneous support for multiple >dynamically acquired addresses is a major advantage of IPv6, as it enables >scenarios that are simply not possible in the IPv4 model of a single address >at a time. What this bumps into here is the fallacious assumption by some >app developers that the routing space is globally flat, so if by chance >there is more than one address, every available address can be treated >equally. This is not a real problem in the market when only their apps fail, >but it is a real problem when they try to prevent other app developers from >taking advantage of the opportunities through limitations in the standards. I may have misunderstood your part of your original message, in which you wrote: >So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking the barrage of >gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from the marine he just >bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are pseudo-random) 32 hex >characters for both the src & dst. Are you describing configuring the interface, configuring the src and dst in a specific datagram or specifying addresses to an application? - Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 05:02:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PC26U3025816; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PC25u6025815; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PC21U3025808 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PBx7Uu028446 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 04:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CYBER1 ([203.122.48.79]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PBt5ij003256 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:55:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308251155.h7PBt5ij003256@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:19:13 +0530 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_01BBEDF4" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_01BBEDF4 Content-Type: text/plain; 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD9AgAAWEMwMDE4MTVk --_NextPart_000_01BBEDF4-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F49FE76.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 07:11:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PEBKU3028927; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PEBKNX028926; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PEBGU3028916 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PE8MUu004543 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PE2Wij004135 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:02:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7PE2UMD060604 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:02:30 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7PE2aW1282258 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:02:36 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53462 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:02:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:02:22 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PEBGU3028917 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Måns Nilsson wrote: > > --On Friday, August 22, 2003 14:35:15 -0700 Fred Templin > wrote: > > > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > > IPv6 wg item (see below)? > > It smells of something we've already decided to reject (not as draft but as > idea.) so I am for accepting it as a wg item in order to be able to kill it > again. Er, what on earth are you talking about? On the contrary, this draft is an attempt to express what we need in place of the existing definition of SL. That is what we've been discussing for the last many months. Tony and Fred have written it down. I'm grateful to them and I fully support this becoming a WG draft at this time. I do agree to replacing the R-word. Some people in the IETF seem to over interpret "requirements" so we should use some other word such as "goals." Keith Moore wrote: > > > > >>Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an IPv6 wg > > > >>item (see below)? > > > > > > > >what does it mean to do this? > > > > As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will > > be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth > > publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an > > RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts > > where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. > > in that case, I don't think we should accept this as a WG document - > at least, not at this time. I think you're missing the point of the word "resulting" above. Obviously, what would get published as an RFC would not be the current draft. It would be whatever it turns into after WG discussion. If we don't accept this draft, someone is going to have to write another one, and we waste yet more time. > > I do accept it as valuable input, though not all input to a WG should be > published as an RFC. Sometimes we publish valuable input for the historical > record, and that's a good thing to do as long as it's properly labelled. The > time to decide on publication for that reason should be after the group has > reached consensus on technical mechanisms. Yes. But that is nothing to do with accepting this draft as a WG draft. The way to make progress is to start with this draft and improve it. Leif Johansson wrote: > > Tony Hain wrote: > > >Leif Johansson wrote: > > > > > >>I'd also like an answer to this question. > >> > >> > > > >As with all working group documents, it means that the resulting text will > >be something the working group has reached concensus on as worth > > > I don't believe that it is possible to turn the current draft into a > requirements > document which does not assume the outcome. Perhaps that is because there is only one class of solution that meets these important goals. If you have an alternative statement of goals that leads to a different class of solution, please publish your own draft. > Given your reply to my question > I oppose the publication of this draft as a wg document. I think you too have missed the point. Accepting this as a WG draft is not the same thing as agreeing to publish it as an RFC. It is merely using it as the starting point. (It is true that unless the people who disagree send their own alternative text, the draft won't change...) > > >publication. It does not mean that the existing text will be published as an > >RFC under the IPv6 WG name, but that it moves from being personal drafts > >where some might not be paying attention, to a draft-ipv6 name. > > > > > > > Imo, you are wrong about the merit of wg status. There are several examples > in the IETF of good work beeing done as individual submission drafts. > Its not > the filename, its what you write that matters. That isn't the point here. We are halfway through the process of deprecating SL and designing a replacement. That's by definition a WG activity. We have a draft set of goals on the table - one draft set of goals - and until someobody produces an alternative set of goals, those goals are the ones I'm looking at. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 07:44:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PEi2U3029625; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PEi2vj029624; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PEhwU3029617 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PEf4Uu016163 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PEewZA028548 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:40:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7D9140C3; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19996-12; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C324413FE7; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:39:01 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-Id: <20030825103901.3ddf4d39.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:02:22 +0200 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > We are halfway through the process of deprecating > SL and designing a replacement. That's by definition a WG activity. We have > a draft set of goals on the table - one draft set of goals - and until > someobody produces an alternative set of goals, those goals are the ones > I'm looking at. I guess that's the core of the disagreement. I don't see our task as that of replacing SL - certainly not in terms of coming up with "a" replacement. I recognize that SL was designed to fill certain needs - or probably closer to the truth is that lots of folks were projecting needs onto SL. Where there are legitimate needs, we need to try to address them. It's also clear that PA addressing alone cannot meet some legitimate needs. What's not clear is that there is a legitimate need for "local" addressing - and stating things in that way seems to presume a particular kind of solution that we already know to be problematic. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:12:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFCHU3000416; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFCH0Q000415; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFCDU3000408 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PF9KUu027025 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PF9Cfa018059 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PF94h16563; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:09:04 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:09:04 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >Perhaps that is because there is only one class of solution that >meets these important goals. If you have an alternative statement >of goals that leads to a different class of solution, please >publish your own draft. > > Let me put it this way: I am not sure there is a problem here to solve. I expected to read a draft explaining what the problem is we are trying to solve with "scoped" addresses. The draft (imo) lumps together several problems most of which can be solved by other means in an effort to justify limited range addresses. So, no I don't intend to write a scoped-stuff-draft of my own. Patrik posed a few direct questions to this effect on the list - none of which have been answered. >>Given your reply to my question >>I oppose the publication of this draft as a wg document. >> >> > >I think you too have missed the point. Accepting this as >a WG draft is not the same thing as agreeing to publish it as an >RFC. It is merely using it as the starting point. (It is true that >unless the people who disagree send their own alternative text, the >draft won't change...) > If the diff -u is too large there is limited value in providing alternative text. I agree with Pekka in disagreeing with the basic assumptions of the draft. > >That isn't the point here. We are halfway through the process of deprecating >SL and designing a replacement. That's by definition a WG activity. We have >a draft set of goals on the table - one draft set of goals - and until >someobody produces an alternative set of goals, those goals are the ones >I'm looking at. > > > The "and designing a replacement"-part worries me. You assume that there is consensus to only deprecate SL if a replacement can be found. I am quite sure you are wrong in that assumption. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:20:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFKTU3000620; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFKTB3000619; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFKPU3000612 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFHVUu000521 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFHQkD013927 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:17:25 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] thread-index: AcNq6dLNWHqE8kWERW6d9QIikqA7cAALu5nQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Pekka Savola" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PFKPU3000613 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka, > Pekka Savola wrote: > What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out > where we need local-use applications -- and, as an interim > feature, maybe reword the current draft so that it's > apparent which current perceived local-use scenarios > require specific requirements. This appears to me the opposite of what is generally done within the IETF. First we write requirements then we look at specific scenarios, not the opposite. Besides, at this stage of things it is generally admitted that a broader view is useful in describing the problem in context. >> which is one of the reasons that eventually led to RFC1597. >> What makes you believe that the reasons they did it in the >> past do not exist anymore? > And what problems has this caused that are really, really > problematic? NAT, in the first place. > On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a > prefix for your running system. IPv6 addresses are quite > obtainable nowadays if you're an equivalent of LIR. Doubly irrelevant to the discussion: first, you can't ask every network to become a LIR; second, the need for public addresses and local addresses is totally different, so even if one enterprise has become a LIR to obtain public addresses it does not remove the need for private ones. > In addition, compared to the situation back in 1994 (and > earlier), people actually use Routing Registries to check > advertisements. You really cannot assume that you could > hijack a prefix and have it work in the Internet. I have live examples that use NAT for that purpose and some other people have contributed the same here. You did not answer the question. The question is not why network administrators are wrong to use local addresses. Wrong or not, and whether you like it or not, they have, do and will use them. Putting your head in the sand or stating that there are no reasons to use local addressing is not going to change it. There are extremely large numbers of networks that currently use local addressing; RFC1918 is not what created this situation: to the contrary it is a by-product of their widespread use and created well-known prefixes for them. What makes you thing that the requirements of all these networks have changed? Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:29:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFT4U3000983; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFT4Mm000982; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFT1U3000971 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFQ7Uu003735 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFQ28d017131 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:26:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK600A0DLJD76@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:26:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 192.168.1.100 ([194.2.144.31]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK600AXZLJ474@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:26:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:25:45 +0200 From: Julien Laganier Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications In-reply-to: <20030821234002.7e95b9e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> To: Keith Moore , "Bound, Jim" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <200308251725.45913.julien.laganier@sun.com> Organization: SUN Microsystems, Inc. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <20030821234002.7e95b9e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Friday 22 August 2003 05:40, Keith Moore wrote: > > > But then again, I don't think that most apps need to do > > > anything to discourage their use with link-local addresses. > > > > I agree. I am not worried about that if they are not in DNS. I am > > worried about the case below. > > What about apps that need to pass their hosts' addresses to their peers? > Where do they get those addresses in the first place? For a variety of > reasons, DNS isn't a reliable way to find your own addresses. So you get > them from the interfaces. Right now the obvious thing to do is to skip > over any LL addresses that are assigned to your interfaces, in order to > avoid giving LL addresses to your peers, but this only works if all > participating hosts have routable addresses. If we start expecing apps to > use LL addresses, all bets are off, and we are back to a NAT-like > situtation where multiparty apps have to implement their own proxies, > routing, and perhaps even addressing in order to function. > > And what happens when vendors start shipping support for LLMNR? Will > getaddrinfo() (or other API used for DNS lookup) suddenly start doing LLMNR > queries if it thinks that DNS is unreachable? Will apps that were formerly > using getaddrinfo to do DNS queries then get exposed to LL addresses even > though they don't work properly with those apps? One solution may be to have a configurable switch for the behavior of existing APIs (getaddrinfo...), like the existing nsswitch.conf ? --julien -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:31:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFVvU3001121; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFVvAC001119; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFVsU3001112 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFT0V7013751 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFSskD021851 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (ns1 [152.78.68.1]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04228 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (IDENT:root@login [152.78.68.162]) by pigeon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01049 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h7PFSnV22344 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:49 +0100 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:49 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <20030825152849.GA22235@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 05:09:04PM +0200, Leif Johansson wrote: > > > The "and designing a replacement"-part worries me. You assume that there > is consensus > to only deprecate SL if a replacement can be found. I am quite sure you > are wrong in > that assumption. There was a vote called on this recently. I don't remember seeing the summary of the result. Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:41:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFfbU3001621; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFfaFS001619; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFfXU3001609 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFcdV7018337 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFcWfa010675 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7PFcUJ4043776 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:38:30 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7PFcbW1252830 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:38:37 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-107.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.107]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22678 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:38:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A2D6F.DA495B70@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:38:23 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka, We are talking about the way enterprise network managers think about their networks. These are people who *will* get fired if their network is seriously penetrated. In fact, I expect quite a few will be fired in the near future because of inadequate protection against the current virus pandemic. These are people who *will* insist on every single way of limiting access. They will agree that security by obscurity is only a partial solution, but they add it to all the other partial solutions. They will *not* tolerate a solution in which misconfigured ACLs in border routers could expose the RPC ports on individual Windows boxes to packets from outside the enterprise. That's in addition to compelling all employees to install the MS03-26 patch and a personal firewall. In this context, some form of private address space is not even slightly optional. Even when RFC 1597 was published, the above pressures were there. They are 100 times greater now. So it's simply inevitable that enterprises will use private (i.e. non-PA, non-routeable) space. Our challenge is to make it as good as we can. Brian Pekka Savola wrote: > > On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Michel Py wrote: > > > Pekka Savola wrote: > > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > > > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > > > requirements for local addressing? > > > > Do you mean that the Hain/Templin draft is too generic, or not specific > > enough? > > Yes. It takes for granted that we need local-use addressing, and lists a > lot of requirements for local-use addressing (some of which are most > probably redundant if you'd apply local-use addressing only to *specific* > scenarios). > > What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out where we need > local-use applications -- and, as an interim feature, maybe reword the > current draft so that it's apparent which current perceived local-use > scenarios require specific requirements. > > > >> 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical > > >> experience has shown, that there is a need for addresses > > >> that do not require public registration." > > > > > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > > > statements. Please be more explicit as I don't see how we > > > can take this for given. > > > > Maybe you are too young to remember but network administrators have > > hijacked addresses for ages, > > yep.. > > > which is one of the reasons that eventually > > led to RFC1597. What makes you believe that the reasons they did it in > > the past do not exist anymore? > > And what problems has this caused that are really, really problematic? > > If you have a disconnected network which you don't plan to connect without > renumbering (which has to be done anyway), it doesn't matter if you hijack > a prefix. > > On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a prefix for your > running system. IPv6 addresses are quite obtainable nowadays if you're an > equivalent of LIR. > > In addition, compared to the situation back in 1994 (and earlier), people > actually use Routing Registries to check advertisements. You really > cannot assume that you could hijack a prefix and have it work in the > Internet. > > -- > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:44:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFirU3001785; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFirVZ001784; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFioU3001775 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFfuUu010974 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.60]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFfrmZ000674 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:41:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7PFdF7U001822; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:39:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3F4A2E2F.1030209@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:35 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030812 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Templin CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred, Fred Templin wrote: > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? I'll admit to some process fuzziness here, so I'm not quite sure what's being asked. If we are being asked that we agree with the content of the document, I'd have to say on the whole at least: not yet. If you want a requirements draft, write requirements and don't wander into the solution space. If you want a solutions draft, that's okay too. Just don't call it a requirements document. Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:51:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFp1U3002145; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFp1G8002144; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFouU3002130 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFm3V7022809 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFlv8d019305 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:47:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PEwhsD910437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:58:38 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <345403812.1061809118@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Actually, I think draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr... is the higher priority as far as becoming a WG item (or have I missed that move in the flurry of messages). However, I support moving the draft below to the WG as well. I also agree that it is not so much a requirements draft as a draft outlining scenarios that may not be readily solvable through the use of global PA address space. Maybe a title like "Addressing Support for Sites without Global Address Space"? --On Friday, August 22, 2003 14:35 -0700 Fred Templin wrote: > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > Subject: > I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 08:52:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFqpU3002274; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PFqpAP002273; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PFqmU3002266 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PFnsV7023569 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.26]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PFnlfa019420 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7PFndgT090052; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:49:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mansaxel@bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se) Received: (from mansaxel@localhost) by bardisk.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h7PFnbvB090051; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:49:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:49:36 +0200 From: Mans Nilsson To: Keith Moore Cc: Brian E Carpenter , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <20030825154936.GF42297@sunet.se> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> <20030825103901.3ddf4d39.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030825103901.3ddf4d39.moore@cs.utk.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://vvv.besserwisser.org X-Purpose: More of everything NOW! X-synced-from: Pilsnet Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, Aug 25, 2003 = at 10:39:01AM -0400 Quoting Keith Moore (moore@cs.utk.edu): >=20 > I guess that's the core of the disagreement. I don't see our task as that > of replacing SL - certainly not in terms of coming up with "a" replacemen= t. > I recognize that SL was designed to fill certain needs - or probably clos= er > to the truth is that lots of folks were projecting needs onto SL. Where > there are legitimate needs, we need to try to address them. It's also > clear that PA addressing alone cannot meet some legitimate needs. What's= not > clear is that there is a legitimate need for "local" addressing - and sta= ting > things in that way seems to presume a particular kind of solution that we > already know to be problematic. This is close to my perception -- which is why I somewhat harshly advocated= =20 for the document to be caught and non-sent to IESG. My apologies for choice of words.=20 In this situation I am pretty convinced that we have to deal with varying cost tradeoffs more than finding Graals of address supply management. I think that the price paid for "wasting" global address space by filtering it off at the IGP edge in order to create non-routed (as opposed to non-routable) address space is worth paying. Having recently been provoked in bit-flipping directions by external input I do see a need for stating *why* I oppose creating dedicatedly local addresses - it is simply going to occur crashes between mirror worlds. The discussions on LL address usage are typical for this -- the LL scope was created to cater to specific functions (RA et. al.) but the distinction is blurred as soon as the notion "an address is an address is an address and as long it is unique I can use it pretty much as I please." takes over peoples minds. It sure has taken over my brain and it is quite contagious, on both sides of this long debate. Thus, there is an operational requirement to remove potential sources of ambiguity because the usage patterns for addresses tend to approach a state where every service may be deployed on any address. P2P certainly is a prime example. Good arguments have been made that this is simply a failure to release v4 paradigms, and I'm tempted to agree -- but that does not mean we have a solution to this except forcing uniqe address space onto users=20 and programmers. --=20 M=E5ns Nilsson Systems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE Are the STEWED PRUNES still in the HAIR DRYER? --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/SjAQ02/pMZDM1cURAs7IAJ42KAyP3/TTqdNkvDuFQVsAWle/1wCeNAvx qZ9FyNbXgHdRdxOSlLKGhbg= =3uir -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --A9z/3b/E4MkkD+7G-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 09:11:21 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGBLU3003204; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PGBLdi003203; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGBHU3003190 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PG8NV7002393 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PG8IkD024697 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PF5qsD927454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:05:47 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <345833453.1061809547@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <20030825103901.3ddf4d39.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> <20030825103901.3ddf4d39.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hm, was the replacement not part of the consensus declaration by the chairs.....? --On Monday, August 25, 2003 10:39 -0400 Keith Moore wrote: > I guess that's the core of the disagreement. I don't see our task as that > of replacing SL - certainly not in terms of coming up with "a" > replacement. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 09:14:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGEXU3003342; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PGEW7F003341; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGESU3003333 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PGBYV7003541 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PGBTZA006362 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:11:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEAE140C3; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03397-08; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93260140C2; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:11:26 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Julien Laganier Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, jim.bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030825121126.4cfefb54.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <200308251725.45913.julien.laganier@sun.com> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <20030821234002.7e95b9e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> <200308251725.45913.julien.laganier@sun.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > And what happens when vendors start shipping support for LLMNR? > > Will getaddrinfo() (or other API used for DNS lookup) suddenly start > > doing LLMNR queries if it thinks that DNS is unreachable? Will apps > > that were formerly using getaddrinfo to do DNS queries then get > > exposed to LL addresses even though they don't work properly with > > those apps? > > One solution may be to have a configurable switch for the behavior of > existing APIs (getaddrinfo...), like the existing nsswitch.conf ? Aarrgh! please, no. The last thing apps need to deal with is more variation in behavior from one platform to another. If LLMNR is going to handle queries for DNS names, it needs to produce consistent results with DNS. Full stop. If it doesn't guarantee this, it has no business returning queries for DNS names, and we need to forbid getaddrinfo() APIs from using LLMNR. Part of behaving consistently with DNS means NO LL addresses in LLMNR for any DNS name which could also be queried from DNS. We really, really don't want apps using LL addresses anyway - not even on an isolated network. First because this requires apps to treat LL addresses differently depending on whether they are being run on an isolated network or not. Second because all the hosts in the app may not have a consistent view of the network - some hosts in an app may see themselves as being on an isolated network while other hosts see themselves as connected. Third because isolated newtorks can become connected and connected networks can become isolated - and you want to avoid having to change addresses across those transitions - this essentially amounts to a renumbering procedure done under severe time constraints. A lot of these problems are solved if instead of using LL, isolated networks elect a probabistically unique PI prefix (PUPI). I think it would be acceptable to advertise a PUPI in DNS or LLMNR as long as there were no PA addresses available (or maybe as long as any PA addresses were also advertised). And PUPIs are routable by private agreement between managed networks, or within a self-configuring network, so you don't have the same severely constrained use you have with LL. Ketih -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 09:34:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGYRU3004148; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PGYQVR004147; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGYMU3004140 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PGVTUu005125 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PGVMmZ025808 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:31:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27078; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308251631.MAA27078@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:16 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Node Requirements Author(s) : J. Loughney Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2003-8-25 This document defines requirements for IPv6 nodes. It is expected that IPv6 will be deployed in a wide range of devices and situations. Specifying the requirements for IPv6 nodes allows IPv6 to function well and interoperate in a large number of situations and deployments. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124307.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 09:34:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGYnU3004170; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PGYn5n004169; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGYfU3004162 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PGVmV7012761 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PGVSfa025888 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27097; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308251631.MAA27097@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:21 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for IPv6 prefix delegation Author(s) : S. Miyakawa, R. Droms Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2003-8-25 This document describes requirements about how an IPv6 address prefix should be delegated to an IPv6 subscriber's network (or 'site'). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124317.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124317.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 09:57:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGvCU3004926; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PGvCCX004925; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PGv9U3004918 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PGsFV7023340 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PGsAkD002120 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <024a01c36b29$8a01f0c0$806015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: References: <200308251631.MAA27097@ietf.org> Subject: Comment on draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Authorization Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The PKIX group is currently conducting Last Call on draft-ietf-pkix-x509-ipaddr-as-extn-01.txt, which is designed to allow certification of prefix delegation assignments (among other uses). This draft might provide a solution for requirement 3.5 in draft-ietf-prefix-delegation. It might therefore be helpful to take a look at draft-ietf-pkix-x509 before Last Call completes. jak -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:06:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PH6cU3005227; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PH6clH005226; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PH6XU3005212 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PH3dUu020849 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PH0r9m013724 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:00:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3948) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:00:54 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Ralph Droms'" , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: <028301c36b2a$4aed25c0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030824125230.04024320@funnel.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PH6XU3005213 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph Droms wrote: > ... > Certainly some of my problems with IPv4LL have resulted, as > you suggest, from the restriction that an interface have just > one dynamic IPv4 address at a time. I think there's more to > the problem - my experience has been that the IPv4LL address > is configured *silently*, so I have no expectation that the > interface is configured in an unexpected way and that, > because of that configuration, none of my applications will work. > > Perhaps the "configured silently" problem is a UI issue? I'd > also like, as a UI issue I guess, the ability to turn off the > configuration of IPv4LL addresses. Personally, I don't have > any convenient way to use an IPv4LL address, and I'd rather > not have any address configured at all than an IPv4LL > address. (Note that I'm still talking about IPv4 here and > not making any predictions about the availability of > applications that can use IPv6LL > addresses.) I understand the 'not configured as expected' issue. What I don't understand is why you would rather have no address, unless your stack does not recover and obtain a different IPv4 address when available. If it does recover, I don't see any failure modes that having an IPv4LL creates. If it doesn't recover, I would consider that to be a broken stack. > > So, will this problem be solved in IPv6LL addressing? Will I > either get some indication from the stack that "no global > addresses are configured" or will applications work as usual > within the constraints of the network resources that can be > reached on the LL? This is of course implementation dependent. Personally I believe applications need to work within the constraints of LL on both ends at a minimum. If an app is trying to reach a global, but doesn't have an address of that scope, a UI should complain. I don't know if it should be the app or stack, but in the context of my 'solving the right problem' note, I would rather keep that knowledge contained inside the stack. Actually making the connection between LL & Global is probably best left as a local policy decision, with the default to deny out of scope connections. > > In any event, I should be a little more precise when I say > "applications can't use LL addresses". What I mean here is > that the applications won't work in the way I expect. That > is, I can't use DNS to identify hosts the application should > communicate with, so I have to use an out of band > (shout-down-the-hall?) protocol to ask "What's the address of > your host" so I have an IP address to give to the > application. I don't see where IPv6LL addressing works any > differently in this regard than IPv4LL addressing, so I don't > see how applications will work any better with IPv6LL addresses. Well to start with, unless your host has a host file, or you happen to be on the same link as a DNS service/proxy, you will never get a DNS response so the whole scenario breaks down. Today if there is no DNS response, people either type in addresses or give up. The yet to be determined 'shout down the hall' protocol provides an alternative for the situations where the nodes happen to share the same link. It doesn't break the primary DNS path, it just adds in to forestall the giving up point. Since typing in IPv6 addresses will really not be feasible, mdns/LLMNR/... really takes that slot. > ... > I may have misunderstood your part of your original message, > in which you > wrote: > > >So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking > the barrage > >of gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from > the marine > >he just bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are > >pseudo-random) 32 hex characters for both the src & dst. > > Are you describing configuring the interface, configuring the > src and dst in a specific datagram or specifying addresses to > an application? Anything that would need to be configured. IPv6LL is autoconfigured, so that would not need to be typed in, but if there is a directive that applications can't use LL, then some other address might need to be added. The point was that the situation calls for recognizable strings of characters, therefore some kind of mapping service to whatever addresses are in use. With LLMNR/mdns/... type of service, there is no need to type in literal addresses to the application, or to the stack to make sure there is something other than a LL there. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:06:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PH6fU3005233; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PH6fYl005232; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PH6ZU3005219 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PH3fV7028104 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PH3ZmZ011630 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:03:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3948) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:00:54 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Ralph Droms'" , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:59:48 -0700 Message-ID: <028301c36b2a$4aed25c0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030824125230.04024320@funnel.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PH6ZU3005220 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph Droms wrote: > ... > Certainly some of my problems with IPv4LL have resulted, as > you suggest, from the restriction that an interface have just > one dynamic IPv4 address at a time. I think there's more to > the problem - my experience has been that the IPv4LL address > is configured *silently*, so I have no expectation that the > interface is configured in an unexpected way and that, > because of that configuration, none of my applications will work. > > Perhaps the "configured silently" problem is a UI issue? I'd > also like, as a UI issue I guess, the ability to turn off the > configuration of IPv4LL addresses. Personally, I don't have > any convenient way to use an IPv4LL address, and I'd rather > not have any address configured at all than an IPv4LL > address. (Note that I'm still talking about IPv4 here and > not making any predictions about the availability of > applications that can use IPv6LL > addresses.) I understand the 'not configured as expected' issue. What I don't understand is why you would rather have no address, unless your stack does not recover and obtain a different IPv4 address when available. If it does recover, I don't see any failure modes that having an IPv4LL creates. If it doesn't recover, I would consider that to be a broken stack. > > So, will this problem be solved in IPv6LL addressing? Will I > either get some indication from the stack that "no global > addresses are configured" or will applications work as usual > within the constraints of the network resources that can be > reached on the LL? This is of course implementation dependent. Personally I believe applications need to work within the constraints of LL on both ends at a minimum. If an app is trying to reach a global, but doesn't have an address of that scope, a UI should complain. I don't know if it should be the app or stack, but in the context of my 'solving the right problem' note, I would rather keep that knowledge contained inside the stack. Actually making the connection between LL & Global is probably best left as a local policy decision, with the default to deny out of scope connections. > > In any event, I should be a little more precise when I say > "applications can't use LL addresses". What I mean here is > that the applications won't work in the way I expect. That > is, I can't use DNS to identify hosts the application should > communicate with, so I have to use an out of band > (shout-down-the-hall?) protocol to ask "What's the address of > your host" so I have an IP address to give to the > application. I don't see where IPv6LL addressing works any > differently in this regard than IPv4LL addressing, so I don't > see how applications will work any better with IPv6LL addresses. Well to start with, unless your host has a host file, or you happen to be on the same link as a DNS service/proxy, you will never get a DNS response so the whole scenario breaks down. Today if there is no DNS response, people either type in addresses or give up. The yet to be determined 'shout down the hall' protocol provides an alternative for the situations where the nodes happen to share the same link. It doesn't break the primary DNS path, it just adds in to forestall the giving up point. Since typing in IPv6 addresses will really not be feasible, mdns/LLMNR/... really takes that slot. > ... > I may have misunderstood your part of your original message, > in which you > wrote: > > >So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking > the barrage > >of gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from > the marine > >he just bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are > >pseudo-random) 32 hex characters for both the src & dst. > > Are you describing configuring the interface, configuring the > src and dst in a specific datagram or specifying addresses to > an application? Anything that would need to be configured. IPv6LL is autoconfigured, so that would not need to be typed in, but if there is a directive that applications can't use LL, then some other address might need to be added. The point was that the situation calls for recognizable strings of characters, therefore some kind of mapping service to whatever addresses are in use. With LLMNR/mdns/... type of service, there is no need to type in literal addresses to the application, or to the stack to make sure there is something other than a LL there. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:17:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHSU3005783; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHHSeU005782; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHPU3005770 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHEVUu025982 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHEOkD018490 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PHEJh16622; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:14:20 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A43EB.1000000@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:14:19 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Chown CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <489260000.1061646873@localhost> <3F4A16EE.4F38DC23@zurich.ibm.com> <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> <20030825152849.GA22235@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030825152849.GA22235@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tim Chown wrote: >On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 05:09:04PM +0200, Leif Johansson wrote: > > >>The "and designing a replacement"-part worries me. You assume that there >>is consensus >>to only deprecate SL if a replacement can be found. I am quite sure you >>are wrong in >>that assumption. >> >> > >There was a vote called on this recently. I don't remember seeing the >summary of the result. > > > The results of the vote (I'll wave the right to instigate a flame-war over the choice of wording :-) ) has not been published yet, but I can count. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:17:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHnU3005808; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHHmOm005807; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHeU3005791 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHEkV7003515 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHEfZA006709 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:14:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 051EB20660D for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19rKHS-00056T-LU for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:33:22 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19rKFY-00051w-6w for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:24 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27078; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308251631.MAA27078@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+61952_08550737275116_45756740951" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --MIMEStream=_0+61952_08550737275116_45756740951 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Node Requirements Author(s) : J. Loughney Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2003-8-25 This document defines requirements for IPv6 nodes. It is expected that IPv6 will be deployed in a wide range of devices and situations. Specifying the requirements for IPv6 nodes allows IPv6 to function well and interoperate in a large number of situations and deployments. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --MIMEStream=_0+61952_08550737275116_45756740951 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="MIMEStream=_1+17165_5037220742762_256678671923" --MIMEStream=_1+17165_5037220742762_256678671923 Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124307.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt --MIMEStream=_1+17165_5037220742762_256678671923 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124307.I-D@ietf.org> --MIMEStream=_1+17165_5037220742762_256678671923-- --MIMEStream=_0+61952_08550737275116_45756740951-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:18:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHIAU3005840; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHIAIA005838; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHxU3005824 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHF5Uu026203 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHExmZ016706 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:14:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4681) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:12:23 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mans Nilsson'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: <02d001c36b2b$e5665300$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030825154936.GF42297@sunet.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PHI0U3005825 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mans Nilsson wrote: > ... Thus, there is > an operational requirement to remove potential sources of > ambiguity because the usage patterns for addresses tend to > approach a state where every service may be deployed on any > address. Please read the draft so that you can be on the same page as the discussion. You will find that ambiguity is not required: 3.5 Global Uniqueness Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:18:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHIAU3005839; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHI9x6005837; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHHwU3005812 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHF4Uu026201 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHCL9m023803 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:12:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4681) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:12:23 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Mans Nilsson'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: <02d001c36b2b$e5665300$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030825154936.GF42297@sunet.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PHHwU3005816 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mans Nilsson wrote: > ... Thus, there is > an operational requirement to remove potential sources of > ambiguity because the usage patterns for addresses tend to > approach a state where every service may be deployed on any > address. Please read the draft so that you can be on the same page as the discussion. You will find that ambiguity is not required: 3.5 Global Uniqueness Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:29:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHT5U3006718; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHT5mR006716; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHSsU3006679 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHQ0Uu001663 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHPsmZ022958 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:25:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3231) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:23:12 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <090801c3585b$c2879700$70144104@eagleswings> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PHSsU3006683 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In case there was any doubt that the WG has no clue what the vote meant, read the current thread 'Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?'. While many were focused on removing ambiguity, there are others who still believe it was about removing scope. Since scope is about describing bounds of reachability it is an operations function, and outside the realm of the IETF's ability to deprecate. The original question was ambiguous and must be voided. If the chairs were to ask specific questions, I believe they would find the real WG consensus. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Tony Hain > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:36 AM > To: 'Steven M. Bellovin' > Cc: iesg@ietf.org; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal > > > Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > > Tony -- to make life easier for all concerned, please state > > explicitly > > what recourse you're asking for from the IESG. As things > stand now, > > even if we agreed with everything you say, we wouldn't know exactly > > what you want us to do. > > I thought I did: > 'The declaration of consensus must be overturned as an abuse > of the process.' > > I guess I am not sure what you are looking for since there is > little else the IESG can do. Would kre's more explicit and > directive choice of words have been better? 'The IESG must > instruct the ipv6 WG chairs that they erred in determining > that there was consensus on this issue, that the procedures > were flawed, and that the IETF does not count votes to > determine consensus, or rough consensus.' > > > Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:29:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHT4U3006710; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHT3iG006708; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHSrU3006674 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHPxUu001658 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHNA9m003081 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3231) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:23:12 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <090801c3585b$c2879700$70144104@eagleswings> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PHSrU3006675 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In case there was any doubt that the WG has no clue what the vote meant, read the current thread 'Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?'. While many were focused on removing ambiguity, there are others who still believe it was about removing scope. Since scope is about describing bounds of reachability it is an operations function, and outside the realm of the IETF's ability to deprecate. The original question was ambiguous and must be voided. If the chairs were to ask specific questions, I believe they would find the real WG consensus. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Tony Hain > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 11:36 AM > To: 'Steven M. Bellovin' > Cc: iesg@ietf.org; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal > > > Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > > Tony -- to make life easier for all concerned, please state > > explicitly > > what recourse you're asking for from the IESG. As things > stand now, > > even if we agreed with everything you say, we wouldn't know exactly > > what you want us to do. > > I thought I did: > 'The declaration of consensus must be overturned as an abuse > of the process.' > > I guess I am not sure what you are looking for since there is > little else the IESG can do. Would kre's more explicit and > directive choice of words have been better? 'The IESG must > instruct the ipv6 WG chairs that they erred in determining > that there was consensus on this issue, that the procedures > were flawed, and that the IETF does not count votes to > determine consensus, or rough consensus.' > > > Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:38:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHcoU3007472; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHcopr007471; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHcjU3007462 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHZqV7014651 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHZkmZ027621 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 6CE9E20660F for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19rKHT-000576-Ck for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:33:23 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19rKFr-000526-7o for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:43 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27097; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308251631.MAA27097@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:31:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+42453_45173238164811_48170131762" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --MIMEStream=_0+42453_45173238164811_48170131762 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for IPv6 prefix delegation Author(s) : S. Miyakawa, R. Droms Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2003-8-25 This document describes requirements about how an IPv6 address prefix should be delegated to an IPv6 subscriber's network (or 'site'). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --MIMEStream=_0+42453_45173238164811_48170131762 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="MIMEStream=_1+61849_19456525876378_44822738402" --MIMEStream=_1+61849_19456525876378_44822738402 Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124317.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt --MIMEStream=_1+61849_19456525876378_44822738402 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-25124317.I-D@ietf.org> --MIMEStream=_1+61849_19456525876378_44822738402-- --MIMEStream=_0+42453_45173238164811_48170131762-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:42:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHg0U3007736; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHg02K007735; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHfsU3007719 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHd1V7016881 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHctkD006810 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBEF14151; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18857-02; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA3414177; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:38:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Message-Id: <20030825133852.0c9abbb8.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F4A2D6F.DA495B70@zurich.ibm.com> References: <3F4A2D6F.DA495B70@zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thinking about this over lunch, I realized that a big part of the problem is the over-emphasis on perimeter security. During the SARS outbreak of a few months ago, the disease was successfully contained not by imposing more scrutiny at customs and immigration, but by imposing sterile protocol and quarantine of infected areas. Outbreak areas that already used such protocols and imposed quarantine immediately contained the virus quickly; those that did not the epidemic continued until the measures were put into place. In other words, it's far more effective to work to keep viruses from spreading than to try to isolate large areas. In the case of the SoBig virus, perimeter security was nearly useless because even one single infected machine was enough to cause a local epidemic, and there are many more ways that this can happen besides direct attack from outside the perimeter. If one person hooks up an infected laptop, or one person brings in an infected CD, or one person reads his AOL mail from within the network, and on any network of significant size the perimeter security has become ineffective. Just as in the SARS outbreak, what is needed are mechanisms to keep the virus from spreading to other machines (both inside and outside of the local network). Placing firewalls *within* a network rather than merely at the perimeter would be a crude start. Far better would be to develop a comprehensive plan for providing security in depth from a cetral configuration - and to use this to automatically configure filtering at the perimeter, internal firewalls, and hosts - and also to back this up with automated testing for configuration failures. But in the context of such mechanisms - which I'm convinced are the only workable solutions to this problem - private addressing is of such marginal utility as to be useless, and it imposes so many difficulties for operations that it's worse than useless. The trick, of course, is getting people to realize this, when the "conventional wisdom" that Private Addresses Are Good is so widespread. Keith > These are people who *will* get fired if their network is seriously > penetrated. In fact, I expect quite a few will be fired in the near > future because of inadequate protection against the current virus > pandemic. These are people who *will* insist on every single way of > limiting access. They will agree that security by obscurity is only > a partial solution, but they add it to all the other partial > solutions. > > They will *not* tolerate a solution in which misconfigured ACLs in > border routers could expose the RPC ports on individual Windows boxes > to packets from outside the enterprise. That's in addition to > compelling all employees to install the MS03-26 patch and a personal > firewall. > > In this context, some form of private address space is not even > slightly optional. Even when RFC 1597 was published, the above > pressures were there. They are 100 times greater now. > > So it's simply inevitable that enterprises will use private > (i.e. non-PA, non-routeable) space. Our challenge is to make it > as good as we can. > > Brian > > Pekka Savola wrote: > > > > On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Michel Py wrote: > > > > Pekka Savola wrote: > > > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > > > > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > > > > requirements for local addressing? > > > > > > Do you mean that the Hain/Templin draft is too generic, or not > > > specific enough? > > > > Yes. It takes for granted that we need local-use addressing, and > > lists a lot of requirements for local-use addressing (some of which > > are most probably redundant if you'd apply local-use addressing only > > to *specific* scenarios). > > > > What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out where we > > need local-use applications -- and, as an interim feature, maybe > > reword the current draft so that it's apparent which current > > perceived local-use scenarios require specific requirements. > > > > > >> 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical > > > >> experience has shown, that there is a need for addresses > > > >> that do not require public registration." > > > > > > > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > > > > statements. Please be more explicit as I don't see how we > > > > can take this for given. > > > > > > Maybe you are too young to remember but network administrators > > > have hijacked addresses for ages, > > > > yep.. > > > > > which is one of the reasons that eventually > > > led to RFC1597. What makes you believe that the reasons they did > > > it in the past do not exist anymore? > > > > And what problems has this caused that are really, really > > problematic? > > > > If you have a disconnected network which you don't plan to connect > > without renumbering (which has to be done anyway), it doesn't matter > > if you hijack a prefix. > > > > On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a prefix for > > your running system. IPv6 addresses are quite obtainable nowadays > > if you're an equivalent of LIR. > > > > In addition, compared to the situation back in 1994 (and earlier), > > people actually use Routing Registries to check advertisements. You > > really cannot assume that you could hijack a prefix and have it work > > in the Internet. > > > > -- > > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "Of course the people don't want war. But ... it is always a simple matter to drag the people along. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger... It works the same way in any country." - Hermann Goering, 1946. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:42:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHgfU3007810; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHgfTm007809; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHgbU3007796 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHdhV7017267 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHdaZA018554 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:39:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PHdXh16640; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:39:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A49D4.5070200@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:39:32 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: <3F4A2D6F.DA495B70@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F4A2D6F.DA495B70@zurich.ibm.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: >Pekka, > >We are talking about the way enterprise network managers think about >their networks. > >These are people who *will* get fired if their network is seriously >penetrated. In fact, I expect quite a few will be fired in the near >future because of inadequate protection against the current virus >pandemic. These are people who *will* insist on every single way of >limiting access. They will agree that security by obscurity is only >a partial solution, but they add it to all the other partial solutions. > >They will *not* tolerate a solution in which misconfigured ACLs in >border routers could expose the RPC ports on individual Windows boxes >to packets from outside the enterprise. That's in addition to compelling >all employees to install the MS03-26 patch and a personal firewall. > >In this context, some form of private address space is not even >slightly optional. Even when RFC 1597 was published, the above >pressures were there. They are 100 times greater now. > >So it's simply inevitable that enterprises will use private >(i.e. non-PA, non-routeable) space. Our challenge is to make it >as good as we can. > > I am a network manager. The fact I might not get fired as the result of a big compromise is more a function of Swedish management culture than anything else. I have had the perverse pleasure of watching large coorporations and agencies in Sweden crash and burn during the last two weeks while we kept afloat. Here comes the punchline: ACLs (in whatever form) do not help as much as most people think against current viruses and woms. Why you ask? Because someone invariably will bring their laptop to work and kaboom. The added protection you get from a private address space is isn't worth the bits the configuration is stored in. Could we please stop talking about scoped addressing as a solution to security problems? It is not and furthermore even the guys in the trenches who pipeline firewalls for "extra protection" are waking up to this fact. Very uncomfortably. These are real honest-to-god experiences from the real world. Lately when coming to the IETF I keep hearing that participation from operators and network managers are important. The SL/LL/scope debate on this list has convinced me that it is not only important but imperative. Cheers Leifj -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:48:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHmlU3008313; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHmlxf008312; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHmgU3008299 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHjkV7020622 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHgt9m019636 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABD914177; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18699-11; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E0F13FC1; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:42:54 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, iesg@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Message-Id: <20030825134254.6c01baba.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <090801c3585b$c2879700$70144104@eagleswings> <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > In case there was any doubt that the WG has no clue what the vote > meant, The vote meant we're going to stop using SLs, IMHO because it became clear that whatever problems SLs were supposed to solve, they weren't worth the cost. We haven't voted on what solutions we were going to recommend for the problems that people claimed (sometiemes erroneously) that SL addressed. We haven't even agreed on what those problems are, or whether they all really exist. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:50:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHovU3008493; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHovSL008492; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHooU3008472 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHluUu014187 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHj69m021488 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:45:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4451) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:45:09 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:44:01 -0700 Message-ID: <031101c36b30$78a57f20$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > ... Patrik posed a few direct > questions to this effect on the list - none of which have > been answered. I must have missed them, so please send a pointer to the questions. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:50:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHowU3008496; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHowxA008495; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHopU3008479 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHlvUu014191 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHlpmZ003029 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:47:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4451) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:45:09 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:44:01 -0700 Message-ID: <031101c36b30$78a57f20$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4A2690.9060403@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > ... Patrik posed a few direct > questions to this effect on the list - none of which have > been answered. I must have missed them, so please send a pointer to the questions. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 10:59:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHxCU3009287; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PHxC6v009284; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PHx8U3009273 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PHuFV7026699 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PHu8fa007008 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PHu0h16661; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:56:02 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:55:59 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, paf@cisco.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <031101c36b30$78a57f20$63124104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <031101c36b30$78a57f20$63124104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >Leif Johansson wrote: > > >>... Patrik posed a few direct >>questions to this effect on the list - none of which have >>been answered. >> >> > >I must have missed them, so please send a pointer to the questions. > >Tony > > > Unfortunately there does not seem to be a hypertext archive of the list but the post was from 2003-07-08: =============== paf =========== I don't know how to attack the people which talk about "intermittent connected networks". The problem I see is that people are locked into the IPv4 world where a DSL modem have one address which might change every connect. That is extrapolated into one IPv6 prefix which changes every connect. Instead, to me, the user should get the _same_ IPv6 prefix every time he connects. As long as one connect to the same upstream network, the IPv6 prefix should not have to change. And, switching upstream network will force a switch in prefixes of course. The renumbering event comes when _connecting_, not disconnecting and connecting as the address can be kept until a new prefix is to be used. Is this not true? Further, we do not have a good session layer in the IETF which means a network _always_ have to reset the connections when a renumbering happens, which is the same as a more drastic network topology change happens. The solution to this is mobile IP. What else? What's so difficult here? paf ============= paf ============ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:23:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PINbU3010335; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PINaOv010334; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PINXU3010327 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIKdV7008630 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PIKYfa001569 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:20:33 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] thread-index: AcNrMLS/u+Ge0UHURpWgvY18Ohy2QAAA3+Rg From: "Michel Py" To: "Leif Johansson" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PINXU3010328 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Leif Johansson wrote: > The added protection you get from a private address space > is isn't worth the bits the configuration is stored in. Exactly the same as saying that car locks are not worth having because they're so easy to open that they don't stop anybody. It is true indeed that any amateur with a coat hanger will open a car in a matter of seconds. As a matter of fact, I locked my keys in my car a while ago and I had to call AAA to let me back in. It took more time to the driver of the AAA truck to fill the paperwork than it did to open the door. Guess what: cars have locks anyway and nothing you can say about car locks being a joke is going to change it. If you don't like it, you can leave your car open. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:29:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PITOU3010541; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PITORT010540; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PITKU3010528 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIQQV7011446 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PIQLmZ021374 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4201) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:22 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: <031901c36b35$cf410750$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PITLU3010531 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Unfortunately there does not seem to be a hypertext archive > of the list but the post was from 2003-07-08: The manual spam filter must have fat-fingered that one into the trash ... > > =============== paf =========== > > I don't know how to attack the people which talk about "intermittent > connected networks". > > The problem I see is that people are locked into the IPv4 > world where a > DSL modem have one address which might change every connect. That is > extrapolated into one IPv6 prefix which changes every connect. > > Instead, to me, the user should get the _same_ IPv6 prefix > every time he > connects. As long as one connect to the same upstream > network, the IPv6 > prefix should not have to change. I believe that most service providers are looking at this as their long term goal, but as noted there are conflicts with their IPv4 model. > And, switching upstream network will > force a switch in prefixes of course. The renumbering event > comes when > _connecting_, not disconnecting and connecting as the address can be > kept until a new prefix is to be used. > > Is this not true? If there is only one connection to any other network, it is possible for a disconnected network to continue using a prefix for some time. If there is a connection to another network and the prefix were reassigned, there is a clear conflict that needs to be resolved. In any case, this presumes that the network will always reconnect to the same SP, and that it is ok to disrupt local communications whenever a connect event happens. Neither of which are valid for all networks. > > Further, we do not have a good session layer in the IETF > which means a > network _always_ have to reset the connections when a renumbering > happens, which is the same as a more drastic network topology change > happens. The solution to this is mobile IP. See my note from yesterday about 'solving the real problem'. Mobile IP is a hack to create the illusion of stability at L3. Even if we decided that was the answer, what it means is that every local connection is created as a mobile IP connection, because there is no guarantee that the routed prefix won't change do to external events. While we can do that technically, there will be many who complain about the performance hit of having to pad out every local packet with a home address. The application layer wants to see stability, and that is fine. The transport layer and below deal with the reality of shifting topology. What we need is a formal layer between transport & applications that provides the illusion of stability up, while managing the reality of constant changes below. I specifically used the term stabilization layer, because 'session' appears to be a loaded term. I really don't care what we call it, but it appears to logically exist between layers 4 & 7, because that is where the demands/reality differ. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:29:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PITZU3010556; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PITZYf010555; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PITSU3010543 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIQYUu003600 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PINK9m023968 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:23:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4201) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:23:22 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: <031901c36b35$cf410750$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PITSU3010544 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Unfortunately there does not seem to be a hypertext archive > of the list but the post was from 2003-07-08: The manual spam filter must have fat-fingered that one into the trash ... > > =============== paf =========== > > I don't know how to attack the people which talk about "intermittent > connected networks". > > The problem I see is that people are locked into the IPv4 > world where a > DSL modem have one address which might change every connect. That is > extrapolated into one IPv6 prefix which changes every connect. > > Instead, to me, the user should get the _same_ IPv6 prefix > every time he > connects. As long as one connect to the same upstream > network, the IPv6 > prefix should not have to change. I believe that most service providers are looking at this as their long term goal, but as noted there are conflicts with their IPv4 model. > And, switching upstream network will > force a switch in prefixes of course. The renumbering event > comes when > _connecting_, not disconnecting and connecting as the address can be > kept until a new prefix is to be used. > > Is this not true? If there is only one connection to any other network, it is possible for a disconnected network to continue using a prefix for some time. If there is a connection to another network and the prefix were reassigned, there is a clear conflict that needs to be resolved. In any case, this presumes that the network will always reconnect to the same SP, and that it is ok to disrupt local communications whenever a connect event happens. Neither of which are valid for all networks. > > Further, we do not have a good session layer in the IETF > which means a > network _always_ have to reset the connections when a renumbering > happens, which is the same as a more drastic network topology change > happens. The solution to this is mobile IP. See my note from yesterday about 'solving the real problem'. Mobile IP is a hack to create the illusion of stability at L3. Even if we decided that was the answer, what it means is that every local connection is created as a mobile IP connection, because there is no guarantee that the routed prefix won't change do to external events. While we can do that technically, there will be many who complain about the performance hit of having to pad out every local packet with a home address. The application layer wants to see stability, and that is fine. The transport layer and below deal with the reality of shifting topology. What we need is a formal layer between transport & applications that provides the illusion of stability up, while managing the reality of constant changes below. I specifically used the term stabilization layer, because 'session' appears to be a loaded term. I really don't care what we call it, but it appears to logically exist between layers 4 & 7, because that is where the demands/reality differ. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:40:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIe1U3011114; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PIe00B011113; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIdvU3011106 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIb4Uu009327 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PIavkD026178 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PIaLh16714; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:36:22 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:36:20 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michel Py CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Michel Py wrote: >Guess what: cars have locks anyway and nothing you can say about car >locks being a joke is going to change it. If you don't like it, you can >leave your car open. > > Sigh. This is almost to dumb to respond to and I'll be kicking myself when the next stats come out ;-) It is possible to build a good car lock (I claim) and some day someone will find the economic incentive to do so. By contrast your private address space does not protect your network from an attack which violates the basic assumption that there is an inside and an outside. The added twist from F.Sobig@mm and friends is that you no longer have to be a network security geek to appreciate this fact. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:50:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIoEU3011551; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PIoEOV011547; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIo9U3011536 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIlGV7021580 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PIlA8d008844 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:47:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01153140C3; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01916-01; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3AE140DC; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:47:07 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Message-Id: <20030825144707.4c703f6d.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Leif Johansson wrote: > > The added protection you get from a private address space > > is isn't worth the bits the configuration is stored in. > > Exactly the same as saying that car locks are not worth having because > they're so easy to open that they don't stop anybody. nope. he didn't say that perimeter security was useless, he said that using private addressing as a mechanism to enforce perimeter security was useless. - you can accomplish the same thing with global address space and an ACL or other configuration - if private addresses are routable at all (and there are good reasons to make them so) then you need explicit configuration even to block private addresses, so they don't save you anything - given that you really need filters within your network more than at the perimeter, even if you could save that one bit of configuration needed at the perimeter, it wouldn't save you from having to configure the filters within your network - and it's more important to get those right anyway. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 11:58:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIwJU3011920; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PIwI8d011919; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PIwFU3011912 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PItGUu019052 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PItAmZ004891 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:55:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3570) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:55:11 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Leif Johansson'" , "'Michel Py'" Cc: Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: <032001c36b3a$418eab10$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PIwFU3011913 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Leif Johansson wrote: > Sigh. This is almost to dumb to respond to and I'll be kicking myself > when the > next stats come out ;-) It is possible to build a good car lock (I > claim) and some > day someone will find the economic incentive to do so. So there should be no locks on cars until someone finds the economic incentive to build something better than what is there? > > By contrast your private address space does not protect your network > from an > attack which violates the basic assumption that there is an > inside and > an outside. You appear to presume that to be useful a technology must solve all known problems. Address space that is not routed to the world does provide protection from direct attacks. It does not prevent indirect attacks through nodes that have a route. > The added twist from F.Sobig@mm and friends is that you no > longer have to be a network security geek to appreciate this fact. Any node that can be reached directly or indirectly from outside the perimeter can bring undesireable content into the protected area. The more layers of protection there are, the more opportunity there is to isolate and contain any problems. Having address space that is not routed provides an extra layer which protects against failures in the firewall/access controls. If your network doesn't require that extra level, there is no need to deploy it. At the same time, there are network managers that insist on having that capability. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 12:02:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJ21U3012043; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PJ21Kp012042; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJ1vU3012035 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PIx3Uu021129 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PIwv8d025396 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:58:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9935A140E4; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04251-03; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3C513FD9; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:58:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:58:56 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, paf@cisco.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-Id: <20030825145856.1ad743d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <031901c36b35$cf410750$63124104@eagleswings> References: <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> <031901c36b35$cf410750$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The application layer wants to see stability, and that is fine. The > transport layer and below deal with the reality of shifting topology. > What we need is a formal layer between transport & applications that > provides the illusion of stability up, while managing the reality of > constant changes below. I specifically used the term stabilization > layer, because 'session' appears to be a loaded term. I really don't > care what we call it, but it appears to logically exist between layers > 4 & 7, because that is where the demands/reality differ. No, it doesn't follow. I demand that my country enforce the freedoms guaranteed in the US Constitution; in particular the rights of freedom of speech, freedom from unreasonable searches, equal treatment of people regardless of race, etc. Reality is that in many areas, local policemen deny people those rights on a daily basis. By your logic, what would be needed is a layer in between citizens and their local policemen to make it look like those rights were in fact being preserved even though they weren't. In fact, the correct place to fix the problem isn't there - nor is it necessarily helpful to directly attack the local police. The problem has to be fixed at the higher layers that are responsible for condoning or even promoting such abuse. (It might not be the best analogy, but it's the one that came immediately to mind. The point is that it's erroneous to assume that the place where problems are experienced is the place where they need to be fixed.) -- You are arbitrarily calling network conditions "reality" without recognizing application needs as "reality". This may be why you persist in thinking that the problem can be fixed by creating an "illusion". What we need is not illusion, but to rearrange functionality so that there is a good match between what the network provides and what applications need. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 12:17:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJHOU3012665; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PJHNDK012664; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJHKU3012657 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PJEQUu027903 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PJBI9m002781 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:11:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7PJB1h16750; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:11:09 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4A5F45.8080103@it.su.se> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:11:01 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: "'Michel Py'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: <032001c36b3a$418eab10$63124104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <032001c36b3a$418eab10$63124104@eagleswings> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: >You appear to presume that to be useful a technology must solve all known >problems. Address space that is not routed to the world does provide >protection from direct attacks. It does not prevent indirect attacks through >nodes that have a route. > No but new technology must actually solve more problems that it creates. Car locks that are easy to break cause little harm apart from this fact. >If your network doesn't require that extra level, there is no need to deploy >it. At the same time, there are network managers that insist on having that >capability. > > I believe that the lessons learned from the types of attacks prevalent today will bring about a change in the types of solutions network managers ask for. Cheers Leif -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 12:18:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJIgU3012737; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PJIgO0012736; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJIbU3012713 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PJFWUu028532 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PJFPmZ013967 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:15:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PIxJsD608241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:00:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:59:14 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: jim.bound@hp.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-ID: <359839765.1061823554@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <20030825121126.4cfefb54.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F91@tayexc13.americas.cpqco rp.net> <20030821234002.7e95b9e5.moore@cs.utk.edu> <200308251725.45913.julien.laganier@sun.com> <20030825121126.4cfefb54.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-Information: http://www.cns.ohiou.edu/email/spam-virus.html X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-0.8, required 5, IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Yes, I think that is the right way to go. I think the following "rules" should go with this approach: - Assume DNS returns both PA and PUPI, then if my node only has PUPI, I select the advertised PUPI, if my node has a PA, I select the PA being advertised. - Obviously, if DNS only returns PUPI and I have both, I use PUPI, and use PA if DNS only returns PA and I have both. - If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though it might work), but I am not sure. - Referring addresses should only ever be done within type, i.e. never refer a PA over a connection using PUPIs, or vice versa. Incidentally, this would address quite a few of the scenarios in hain/templin as well as the ones suggested for the ad-hoc cases. Can the WG move on the Hinden draft, maybe with a set of rules like the ones above (and all the safeguard statements discussed before)? --On Monday, August 25, 2003 12:11 -0400 Keith Moore wrote: > A lot of these problems are solved if instead of using LL, isolated > networks elect a probabistically unique PI prefix (PUPI). I think it > would be acceptable to advertise a PUPI in DNS or LLMNR as long as there > were no PA addresses available (or maybe as long as any PA addresses > were also advertised). And PUPIs are routable by private agreement > between managed networks, or within a self-configuring network, so you > don't have the same severely constrained use you have with LL. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 12:57:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJvJU3013629; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PJvIfP013628; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PJvFU3013621 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PJsLV7024603 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PJpS9m005045 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PIidsD598772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:34 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-ID: <358959609.1061822674@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> References: <031101c36b30$78a57f20$63124104@eagleswings> <3F4A4DAF.9000600@it.su.se> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Let me jump in with a few observations, I am sure others will too. 1. In the "be liberal what you accept" approach, solving a network problem by stating that you "should always get the same prefix" seems imprudent engineering. You have to assume that the prefix for provider-supplied address space will change from time to time, and design your network to deal with that. I am NOT suggesting that I know what the right answer is. 2. To me the scenario that is very hard to deal with given only routable space is the intermittent connection case. I think of this as a formation of cooperating nodes (the hain/templin draft uses a ship, but I am also interested in formations of data-gathering drones or satellites, or clusters of devices with wireless connections). In many cases the internal connections within the cluster are more critical than the external ones. Routable PA space won't work. Using local addresses (but not link-local, IMHO) is certainly one solution. Mobile IP may work, but I am not convinced about that, and in any case it adds "weight" to the network and the nodes. --On Monday, August 25, 2003 19:55 +0200 Leif Johansson wrote: > Tony Hain wrote: > >> Leif Johansson wrote: >> >> >>> ... Patrik posed a few direct >>> questions to this effect on the list - none of which have >>> been answered. >>> >>> >> >> I must have missed them, so please send a pointer to the questions. >> >> Tony >> >> >> > Unfortunately there does not seem to be a hypertext archive of the list > but the post was from 2003-07-08: > > =============== paf =========== > > I don't know how to attack the people which talk about "intermittent > connected networks". > > The problem I see is that people are locked into the IPv4 world where a > DSL modem have one address which might change every connect. That is > extrapolated into one IPv6 prefix which changes every connect. > > Instead, to me, the user should get the _same_ IPv6 prefix every time he > connects. As long as one connect to the same upstream network, the IPv6 > prefix should not have to change. And, switching upstream network will > force a switch in prefixes of course. The renumbering event comes when > _connecting_, not disconnecting and connecting as the address can be kept > until a new prefix is to be used. > > Is this not true? > > Further, we do not have a good session layer in the IETF which means a > network _always_ have to reset the connections when a renumbering > happens, which is the same as a more drastic network topology change > happens. The solution to this is mobile IP. > > What else? What's so difficult here? > > paf > > ============= paf ============ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 13:56:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PKuGU3014345; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PKuG5I014344; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PKuCU3014337 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PKrJUu013727 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PKrC8d014212 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:53:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PJHGsD620938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:17:11 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Message-ID: <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I fear this discussion is headed in the wrong direction as far as the decisions in this group. You are of course right that filtering (by private or public addresses) at a border is not sufficient security. But it DOES remove some unwanted traffic. Is this relevant to local addressing -- probably not. However, I have become convinced that some form of local addressing is required to allow network managers enough flexibility to solve their design issues. I hope the WG can create these addresses, try to insure that they won't break things (as SL apparently did), and move on. You mileage may (probably will) vary.... --On Monday, August 25, 2003 20:36 +0200 Leif Johansson wrote: > By contrast your private address space does not protect your network from > an attack which violates the basic assumption that there is an inside and > an outside. The added twist from F.Sobig@mm and friends is that you no > longer have to be a network security geek to appreciate this fact. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 14:44:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PLiSU3015060; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PLiRHq015059; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PLiOU3015052 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PLfUUu005819 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PLc69m027576 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:38:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7PLbuJ01541; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:37:56 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308252137> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdd5FmAa; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:37:54 PDT Message-ID: <3F4A83BB.5050809@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:46:35 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliot Lear CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <3F4A2E2F.1030209@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Just to respond to the intent of my question, I am asking for consensus to adopt the hain/templin draft as an IPv6 wg item *so that we can revise the document based on input from the wg as we work toward a finished product*. There is no expectation that the document in its current form is ready for wg last-call - indeed, we anticipate one or more revision update(s) beyond the current. IMO, wg involvement is needed to help facilitate this process. In particular, the document focus should be on Requirements (or, as Brian perhaps more appropriately terms them, "Goals") and Scenarios; not solutions. Guidance from the wg is needed to help identify aspects of the current draft version that don't fit in well with that focus. Again, IMO, this process is best supported by adopting the hain/templin draft as a wg item, i.e., so we can *work* on it! Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Eliot Lear wrote: > Fred, > > Fred Templin wrote: > >> Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an >> IPv6 wg item (see below)? > > > I'll admit to some process fuzziness here, so I'm not quite sure > what's being asked. If we are being asked that we agree with the > content of the document, I'd have to say on the whole at least: not > yet. If you want a requirements draft, write requirements and don't > wander into the solution space. If you want a solutions draft, that's > okay too. Just don't call it a requirements document. > > Eliot > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 15:19:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PMJVU3015708; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PMJVR7015707; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PMJRU3015700 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PMGYV7029602 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PMGRmZ006163 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:16:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA14163; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308252216.SAA14163@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hans Kruse wrote: |I think the following "rules" should go with this approach: | |- Assume DNS returns both PA and PUPI, then | if my node only has PUPI, I select the advertised PUPI, | if my node has a PA, I select the PA being advertised. I assume that the "only" above implies that if you have both PUPI and PA addresses you wish to select the PA address? If so, this defeats the goal of quasi-automatic connection stability in the face of changing PA addresses. It would require setting up separate DNS entries with only PUPI addresses in order to force a stable connection. |- Obviously, if DNS only returns PUPI and I have both, I use PUPI, | and use PA if DNS only returns PA and I have both. | |- If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice |versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though it |might work), but I am not sure. As long as this default can be changed without the cooperation on the applications (i.e., a global option for the stack) it would be ok... Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 15:37:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PMbQU3016060; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PMbQvG016059; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PMbMU3016052 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PMYRV7007231 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PMYMmZ013880 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:34:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3163) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:34:23 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:33:12 -0700 Message-ID: <034501c36b58$decda8e0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <20030825145856.1ad743d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7PMbMU3016053 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > You are arbitrarily calling network conditions "reality" > without recognizing application needs as "reality". This may > be why you persist in thinking that the problem can be fixed > by creating an "illusion". What we need is not illusion, but > to rearrange functionality so that there is a good match > between what the network provides and what applications need. That could be because applications don't 'need' stability. They want it, and I have been trying to recognize that providing it is the result we are looking for. At the same time, applications can be written to deal with arbitrary disruptions and reconnection from different topology attachment points. This makes the applications more complex, but it is technically possible. Adding complexity to the applications does not lead us closer to lowest cost for the overall system though, so we should be looking for ways to mask the complexity of the shifting network topology below. Our overall architecture is about reasonably simple building blocks, yet many of your arguments are about pushing complexity into those building blocks to keep the view from above as simple as possible. I have no issue with keeping the view from above simple, but forcing complexity into the lower layers is not going to get us there. That is why I think we need something specifically inserted between layers 4 & 7. Unfortunately, there are many that consider the bond between those layers to be sacred ground. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 16:03:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PN3CU3016659; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PN3BuR016658; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PN38U3016651 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PN0AV7020114 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PN04mZ024051 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:00:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7PMi7sD749487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:44:06 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-ID: <1758343.1061837046@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <200308252216.SAA14163@ss10.danlan.com> References: <200308252216.SAA14163@ss10.danlan.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --On Monday, August 25, 2003 18:16 -0400 Dan Lanciani wrote: > Hans Kruse wrote: > >| I think the following "rules" should go with this approach: >| >| - Assume DNS returns both PA and PUPI, then >| if my node only has PUPI, I select the advertised PUPI, >| if my node has a PA, I select the PA being advertised. > > I assume that the "only" above implies that if you have both PUPI and PA > addresses you wish to select the PA address? If so, this defeats the goal > of quasi-automatic connection stability in the face of changing PA > addresses. It would require setting up separate DNS entries with only > PUPI addresses in order to force a stable connection. That is what I think needs to happen. If you preferentially pick local addresses, you risk unnecessary failure during address referral. Advertising only PUPI for nodes that need stable connections forces the use of the local addresses without need to modify application behavior. Of course, nothing would prevent an application from explicitly preferring PUPIs (or letting the user configure such override). I am concerned about a default, out-of-the-box behavior that succeeds in the most common cases. > >| - Obviously, if DNS only returns PUPI and I have both, I use PUPI, >| and use PA if DNS only returns PA and I have both. >| >| - If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice >| versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though >| it might work), but I am not sure. > > As long as this default can be changed without the cooperation on the > applications (i.e., a global option for the stack) it would be ok... Again, a stack-wide override would make sense (registry, sysctl, etc). As other overrides, their use may cause breakage, but I think that is an acceptable risk as long as the default behavior of the stack prevents such breakage. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 16:22:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNMrU3017125; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PNMrpT017124; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNMoU3017117 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PNJuV7029029 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from YS (pcp01405718pcs.potstn01.pa.comcast.net [68.81.71.170]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PNGS9m011417 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:16:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308252316.h7PNGS9m011417@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Thank you! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:18:06 --0500 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_00503274" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_00503274 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see the attached file for details. --_NextPart_000_00503274 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="your_document.pif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="your_document.pif" TVqQAAMAAAAEAAAA//8AALgAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA4AAAAA4fug4AtAnNIbgBTM0hVGhpcyBwcm9ncmFtIGNhbm5vdCBiZSBydW4gaW4gRE9TIG1v ZGUuDQ0KJAAAAAAAAADToEjPl8EmnJfBJpyXwSacFN0onI3BJpx/3iyc7cEmnMHeNZyawSacl8Em 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALoCAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_00503274-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 16:29:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNTkU3017410; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PNTkh9017409; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com 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[skipped application/octet-stream attachment] IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (5.50 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name INVALID_DATE (0.6 points) Invalid Date: header (not RFC 2822) MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE (0.1 points) RAW: Message includes Microsoft executable program MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 (0.9 points) 'Message-Id' was added by a relay (3) DATE_IN_PAST_03_06 (0.3 points) Date: is 3 to 6 hours before Received: date MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. If you wish to view it, it may be safer to save it to a file and open it with an editor. ------------=_3F4A9BF7.2FD31CBE Content-Type: message/rfc822; x-spam-type=original Content-Description: original message before SpamAssassin Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Envelope-To: eva@tibbir.se X-Spam-Status: SpamAssassin Failed Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1) with ESMTP id 1128793 for eva@tibbir.se; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:29:23 +0200 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.21]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PNML8d012919; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:22:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PNKOVf029292; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNMrU3017125; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PNMrpT017124; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNMoU3017117 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PNJuV7029029 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from YS (pcp01405718pcs.potstn01.pa.comcast.net [68.81.71.170]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PNGS9m011417 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:16:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308252316.h7PNGS9m011417@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Thank you! 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALoCAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_00503274-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F4A9BF7.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 16:31:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNV8U3017489; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7PNV85J017486; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7PNV0U3017461 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7PNS6Uu025916 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7PNS1kD015470 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6A0140F4; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22880-01; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD4E14185; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:26:01 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, leifj@it.su.se, brc@zurich.ibm.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, paf@cisco.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Message-Id: <20030825192601.406fea65.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <034501c36b58$decda8e0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <20030825145856.1ad743d1.moore@cs.utk.edu> <034501c36b58$decda8e0$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > You are arbitrarily calling network conditions "reality" > > without recognizing application needs as "reality". This may > > be why you persist in thinking that the problem can be fixed > > by creating an "illusion". What we need is not illusion, but > > to rearrange functionality so that there is a good match > > between what the network provides and what applications need. > > That could be because applications don't 'need' stability. well, apps don't "need" TCP either. they could implement all of that themselves. and if they don't have stability, then they end up implementing much of TCP, along with something like mobile IP and who knows what. yes, all of this is technically possible, but most of us realize it's pretty suboptimal. also, we need to be concerned about the impact on existing software - we might could tolerate minor changes phased in over a period of several years, but we don't want to start over from scratch. > Unfortunately, there > are many that consider the bond between those layers to be sacred ground. there's a reason you put the wheels under the car rather than on top of it. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 17:16:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0GDU3019118; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q0GDTQ019117; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0G8U3019107 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q0DFV7024336 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q0DAfa029655 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7Q0D6c14565; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:13:06 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308260013> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdCQ9EKA; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:13:04 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030825170121.035225b8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:11:23 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com In-Reply-To: <20030824040023.873F82B0@cyteen.hactrn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The chairs asked Rob Austein to starting sending out the weekly traffic statistics in the hope that people sending a lot of email to the list would show some additional restraint. This does not appear to be working as well as we hoped. I suggest to everyone if you have already said the same thing several times, you do not need to say it again. Even if someone else repeated what you disagreed with. Bob At 09:00 PM 8/23/2003, Rob Austein wrote: > Messages | Bytes | Who >--------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ > 25.16% | 40 | 25.68% | 216885 | moore@cs.utk.edu > 12.58% | 20 | 14.43% | 121847 | jim.bound@hp.com > 12.58% | 20 | 11.50% | 97109 | alh-ietf@tndh.net > 4.40% | 7 | 5.06% | 42750 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com > 4.40% | 7 | 3.85% | 32475 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com > 4.40% | 7 | 3.24% | 27324 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us > 3.14% | 5 | 4.24% | 35799 | bzill@microsoft.com > 3.77% | 6 | 3.05% | 25734 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se > 1.89% | 3 | 3.57% | 30164 | aeb1@aebeard.com > 2.52% | 4 | 2.13% | 17957 | chirayu@chirayu.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.94% | 16420 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > 1.89% | 3 | 1.85% | 15622 | jeroen@unfix.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.74% | 14682 | ipv6@nosense.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.59% | 13456 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com > 1.89% | 3 | 1.33% | 11243 | leifj@it.su.se > 1.26% | 2 | 1.90% | 16083 | jgraessley@apple.com > 1.26% | 2 | 1.41% | 11921 | jordi.palet@consulintel.es > 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7388 | ronald.vanderpol@rvdp.org > 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7330 | alain.durand@sun.com > 0.63% | 1 | 1.02% | 8575 | sasson_shuki@emc.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7047 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp > 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7014 | mailer-daemon@navy.mil > 0.63% | 1 | 0.60% | 5098 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net > 0.63% | 1 | 0.57% | 4792 | paf@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.56% | 4696 | benny+nospam@amorsen.dk > 0.63% | 1 | 0.55% | 4644 | dean@ipnet6.org > 0.63% | 1 | 0.54% | 4583 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4497 | rdroms@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4436 | nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.52% | 4377 | itojun@iijlab.net > 0.63% | 1 | 0.51% | 4332 | stansley@microsoft.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3911 | itojun@itojun.org > 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3852 | bmanning@isi.edu > 0.63% | 1 | 0.43% | 3629 | lear@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.42% | 3541 | gene@nttmcl.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.39% | 3330 | erik.nordmark@sun.com >--------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ >100.00% | 159 |100.00% | 844543 | Total > >Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on an at-whim >basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your mileage may vary. >We decline responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. >If this script produces broken output, you get to keep both pieces. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 17:30:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0UIU3019361; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q0UIWO019360; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0UFU3019353 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q0RLV7029956 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q0RGfa009447 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:27:15 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] thread-index: AcNrOoS+c45+VKA9TFCNiWY/sygNdAALCiHg From: "Michel Py" To: "Tony Hain" , "Leif Johansson" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7Q0UFU3019354 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Leif Johansson wrote: > Sigh. This is almost to dumb to respond to and I'll be kicking > myself when the next stats come out ;-) It is possible to build > a good car lock (I claim) and some day someone will find the > economic incentive to do so. Since I'm so dumb explain me why isn't the good car lock installed on every car yet? It's not like the car lock problem is new. And why isn't your miracle security setup installed on every network? We have a word for people such as yourself that claim things that they don't have: vaporware. If you were an experienced network administrator you would have plenty of opportunities to appreciate how close the bullet passed and how this little extra step saved you precious butt big time. So far, all my car lock did for me is prevented me to get into my own car, but that's not a reason not to use it. Pray you don't get hacked, because when you do your senior management will get an external consultant to assess your network, and good security consultants will google your name and find your postings; in the US, you would be not only fired but sued by your former employer for negligence. The fact that the lock does suck is not an excuse not to use it. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 17:45:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0j1U3019929; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q0j1Zr019928; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q0ivU3019921 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q0g3Uu028997 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q0g1kD009111 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:00 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] thread-index: AcNrIFZU7MagdlKtT12LctnC5VAJTwAEdW9Q From: "Michel Py" To: "Brian Carpenter" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7Q0iwU3019922 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Brian E Carpenter > [large snip] Completely agree with your latest post, save for this: > So it's simply inevitable that enterprises will use > private (i.e. non-PA, non-routeable) space. Our > challenge is to make it as good as we can. Not good enough. Our challenge is to make it to reach the same sex-appeal, level of comfort or whatever you want to call it than what the enterprise network administrator can do with a combination of vendor proprietary support and some homebrewing. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 19:34:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2YvU3021755; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q2Yv4w021754; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2YsU3021747 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q2W0Uu010163 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (creativedynamo.com [64.65.66.163]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q2Vt8d011915 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7Q2WDBj021189 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:32:13 -1000 Received: from localhost (tony@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h7Q2WDI9021186 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:32:13 -1000 X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: tony owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:32:13 -1000 (HST) From: Antonio Querubin X-X-Sender: tony@localhost.localdomain To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: reverse delegation of 2002:xxxx:xxxx:: ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Does anybody know what the current procedure (if any) is for getting reverse delegation of 6to4 address space going? I see 2.0.0.2.ip6.int but no 2.0.0.2.in-addr.arpa zone. BTW, for some reason access to this list's archive is broken. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 19:50:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2o3U3022166; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q2o2ON022165; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2nxU3022158 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q2l5V7024486 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q2kx8d029959 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDFAC875; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:46:59 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D182D@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thread-Index: AcNp9ful0kPSgX85RuexDaqoZELxEABhj7Aw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Rob Austein" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 02:46:59.0374 (UTC) FILETIME=[521524E0:01C36B7C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7Q2nxU3022159 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Is it possible to get topics for the month (not week to much work) and number of responses too. Thanks /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Austein [mailto:sra+ipng@hactrn.net] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:00 AM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > Messages | Bytes | Who > --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ > 25.16% | 40 | 25.68% | 216885 | moore@cs.utk.edu > 12.58% | 20 | 14.43% | 121847 | jim.bound@hp.com > 12.58% | 20 | 11.50% | 97109 | alh-ietf@tndh.net > 4.40% | 7 | 5.06% | 42750 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com > 4.40% | 7 | 3.85% | 32475 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com > 4.40% | 7 | 3.24% | 27324 | > michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us > 3.14% | 5 | 4.24% | 35799 | bzill@microsoft.com > 3.77% | 6 | 3.05% | 25734 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se > 1.89% | 3 | 3.57% | 30164 | aeb1@aebeard.com > 2.52% | 4 | 2.13% | 17957 | chirayu@chirayu.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.94% | 16420 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > 1.89% | 3 | 1.85% | 15622 | jeroen@unfix.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.74% | 14682 | ipv6@nosense.org > 1.89% | 3 | 1.59% | 13456 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com > 1.89% | 3 | 1.33% | 11243 | leifj@it.su.se > 1.26% | 2 | 1.90% | 16083 | jgraessley@apple.com > 1.26% | 2 | 1.41% | 11921 | jordi.palet@consulintel.es > 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7388 | ronald.vanderpol@rvdp.org > 1.26% | 2 | 0.87% | 7330 | alain.durand@sun.com > 0.63% | 1 | 1.02% | 8575 | sasson_shuki@emc.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7047 | jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp > 0.63% | 1 | 0.83% | 7014 | mailer-daemon@navy.mil > 0.63% | 1 | 0.60% | 5098 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net > 0.63% | 1 | 0.57% | 4792 | paf@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.56% | 4696 | benny+nospam@amorsen.dk > 0.63% | 1 | 0.55% | 4644 | dean@ipnet6.org > 0.63% | 1 | 0.54% | 4583 | charliep@iprg.nokia.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4497 | rdroms@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.53% | 4436 | nwnetworks@dial.pipex.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.52% | 4377 | itojun@iijlab.net > 0.63% | 1 | 0.51% | 4332 | stansley@microsoft.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3911 | itojun@itojun.org > 0.63% | 1 | 0.46% | 3852 | bmanning@isi.edu > 0.63% | 1 | 0.43% | 3629 | lear@cisco.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.42% | 3541 | gene@nttmcl.com > 0.63% | 1 | 0.39% | 3330 | erik.nordmark@sun.com > --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ > 100.00% | 159 |100.00% | 844543 | Total > > Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on > an at-whim basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your > mileage may vary. We decline responsibilities, all shapes, > all sizes, all colors. If this script produces broken output, > you get to keep both pieces. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 19:52:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2qwU3022230; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q2qv1n022229; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q2qsU3022222 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q2o0V7025562 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q2nsmZ015723 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:49:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F1CB901; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6673); Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:49:54 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:49:53 -0400 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B049D182E@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Some IPv6LL operational experience Thread-Index: AcNp/Hs2nslAl4kYRZa1M5Fo3K8fFABgCr4g From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Joshua Graessley" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 02:49:54.0240 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA4F9400:01C36B7C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7Q2qsU3022223 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk John, Very good response. Lets go offline. I think mdns should be revisited from your mail in the IETF. Thanks /jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Graessley [mailto:jgraessley@apple.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:50 AM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience > > > > On Aug 22, 2003, at 10:03 PM, Bound, Jim wrote: > > > mdns or LLMNR are not widely implemented and if you bring your > > implementation to one of the many test events for IPv6 > where your node > > must interoperate on the deployed implementations testing > network most > > nodes will not respond to mdns. I am sure you can > interoperate with > > your own nodes. But think about a network where your nodes > are only > > say 10 out of 30 on two links. Your mdns will not work > with the other > > nodes > > for IPv6LLs. > > We are trying to push for a wider adoption of mDNS. We were trying to > work with the IETF to establish it as a standard, but the > working group > ran it in to the ground as LLMNR to such a state that we can not use > it. We continue working on mDNS since LLMNR is in such a > useless state. > Our implementation of mDNS can be built on many platforms. We > feel that > mDNS combined with IPv6LL addresses make for a very powerful solution > to the problems of local communication on both configured and > unconfigured networks. > > > My postulate is that major pain can be caused by sending to > the wrong > > IPv6LL in a multilink scenario if the packet goes to the > wrong link. > > How does the user know to specify applicationname > FE80::1%ethernet0, > > ethernnet1, etc.? > > On our implementation, if the scope is not specified the transmit > fails. I think it results in a no route to host error. This > means that > the scope id must be specified for a link-local address. In > the case of > mDNS, this is automatic. In the case of manually typing an > address, the > user must append the scope id to the IPv6LL address (i.e. > fe80::123%en0). Some browsers choke on this, treating the % as an > escape character. Most browsers handle this correctly when the IPv6 > address is correctly bracketed by '[' and ']'. > > > Because of this potential conflict today it needs to be documented > > publicly. > > > > That does not mean in worst case scenarios of no router and no > > assigned prefix for ad hoc network IPv6LLs cannot be used > but rather > > some serious thought should go into their use by what I > call mission > > critical applications. > > Suggesting that applications should avoid IPv6LLs at all cost > is silly. > IPv6LLs will work transparently with the vast majority of existing > applications. Applications that have special requirements (those > transmitting an address in a packet) will need to filter out such > addresses for any destination that may potentially be off link. Those > applications may also need to remember the interface packets were > received on in the case of an IPv6LL being forwarded to > another node on > the same link, just as our mDNSResponder and resolver libraries do. > This is not a difficult concept to grasp nor is the code very > complicated. I'm surprised it has sparked such a heated debate. > > -josh > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 21:20:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q4KgU3023957; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q4KghK023956; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q4KdU3023948 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q4HjUu013596 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q4Hd8d017310 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:17:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7Q44Sj9009794; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:04:30 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Hans Kruse'" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:50:03 +0530 Message-ID: <000001c36b89$573af8c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <359839765.1061823554@hkruse2003a> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7Q4KdU3023949 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > - If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice > versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though it > might work), but I am not sure. .....maybe not. Failing connections is too drastic. You never know if the site operator has set up an internal route from the PA to the PUPI. CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 21:21:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q4L3U3023967; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q4L3mP023966; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q4KxU3023959 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q4I2V7023583 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q4HumZ014154 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:17:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7Q44SjA009794; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:04:37 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Dan Lanciani'" Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:50:03 +0530 Message-ID: <000101c36b89$5a3d1530$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <200308252216.SAA14163@ss10.danlan.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > |- If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice > |versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though it > |might work), but I am not sure. > > As long as this default can be changed without the cooperation on the > applications (i.e., a global option for the stack) it would be ok... Modifications to the address selection policy table would help in achieving this default without any change to the applications. Of course, if the applications can always chose their own set of src/dest addresses to override the stack defaults. CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Aug 25 23:20:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q6KZU3026205; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q6KZ72026204; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q6KWU3026197 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q6HcUu020596 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gura.nttv6.jp (gura.nttv6.jp [210.163.36.2]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q6HWkD014273 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nirvana.nttv6.jp (nirvana.nttv6.jp [2001:218:1f01:1::2687]) by gura.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 81DC41FE47; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:31 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by nirvana.nttv6.jp (NTTv6MTA) with ESMTP id 39BAE1265FA; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:31 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:31 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20030826.151731.02216493.miyakawa@nttv6.jp> To: kempf@docomolabs-usa.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, miyakawa@nttv6.jp Subject: Re: Comment on draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Authorization From: Shin Miyakawa In-Reply-To: <024a01c36b29$8a01f0c0$806015ac@dclkempt40> References: <200308251631.MAA27097@ietf.org> <024a01c36b29$8a01f0c0$806015ac@dclkempt40> Organizaton: NTT Communications X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 21.2 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello, James, Thank you for your comment. Just a quick question. As one of the authors of the draft, I am a bit confused. You wrote: > The PKIX group is currently conducting Last Call on > draft-ietf-pkix-x509-ipaddr-as-extn-01.txt, which is designed to allow > certification of prefix delegation assignments (among other uses). I took a look it. > This draft might provide a solution for requirement 3.5 in > draft-ietf-prefix-delegation. Yes, I agree here at least as one of possibilities. However, >It might therefore be helpful to take a look at draft-ietf-pkix-x509 >before Last Call completes. ++++++ Why "before" ??? I think that prefix delegation requirement draft can go forward with or without draft-ietf-pkix-x509, isn't it ??? Shin Miyakawa, Ph.D Sr.Research Manager, IPv6 Group, Innovative IP Architecture Center NTT Communications Corporation Tokyo Opera City Tower 21st Floor 3-20-2 Nishi-Shinjuku, Shinjuku-Ku, Tokyo, Japan 163-1421 E-mail:miyakawa@nttv6.jp / miyakawa@wide.ad.jp TEL:+81-3-6800-3262 / FAX:+81-3-5365-2990 Visiting Researcher, SFC Lab. KEIO University WIDE Project -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 01:52:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q8qPU3028037; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q8qPiP028036; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q8qMU3028029 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q8nSV7012194 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q8nL8d006737 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:49:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7Q8nFE26494; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:49:16 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:49:14 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Antonio Querubin cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Subject: Re: reverse delegation of 2002:xxxx:xxxx:: ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Antonio Querubin wrote: > Does anybody know what the current procedure (if any) is for getting > reverse delegation of 6to4 address space going? I see 2.0.0.2.ip6.int but > no 2.0.0.2.in-addr.arpa zone. Btw, this should be in v6ops WG list, I think. (Please remove ipng from possible follow-ups.) As for the current procedure, currently there is none. draft-ymbk-6to4-arpa-delegation-00.txt should be in IETF Last Call, though. That would enable the owner of the IPv4 address space to get 6to4 reverse delegations from the RIRs, I think. Whether that solves Joe Random's need for reverse 6to4 delegation is an entirely different thing, because I'd assume that if you have to use 6to4 in an ISP's network, they aren't interested in IPv6, much less making delegations to *you*. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 02:44:04 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q9i4U3028743; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q9i4Ak028742; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q9i0U3028735 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q9f6V7025701 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q9etmZ023917 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:41:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24667F4C; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:40:52 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Antonio Querubin'" , Subject: RE: reverse delegation of 2002:xxxx:xxxx:: ? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:40:51 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <000901c36bb6$242acaf0$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Antonio Querubin wrote: > Does anybody know what the current procedure (if any) is for getting > reverse delegation of 6to4 address space going? Contact the RIRs, but there is no policy in place for it yet. As you might know 6bone space still hasn't got a reverse in ip6.arpa space either. The 6bone politics apparently take their time to make it work. 6to4 ip6.arpa was planned next. > I see 2.0.0.2.ip6.int but no 2.0.0.2.in-addr.arpa zone. Contact hostmaster@ep.net for ip6.int delegations. Either way you will probably be better off getting yourself a RIR (2001::/16) piece of address space and using that as 6to4 is not utterly stable all the time due to the not much wide-spread relays causing big latencies etc. > BTW, for some reason access to this list's archive is broken. It might be because it is about to be moved, though that should not cause a broken archive. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0srIimqKFIzPnwjEQLILgCfaXFV8ndar8O9p6fhqUEf/k/iw64AnjSh 2+fX6g5hQ8stllcbWPRz/Y4v =PxaA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 02:46:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q9k1U3028762; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7Q9k1eQ028761; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7Q9jwU3028754 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7Q9guV7026258 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7Q9dJ9m007801 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:39:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dhcp-168-17-23.autonomica.se (8.12.9/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h7Q9d7EZ029287; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:39:06 +0200 Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: "Tony Hain" , iesg@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <20030825134254.6c01baba.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <231F931A-D7A9-11D7-AA35-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> In case there was any doubt that the WG has no clue what the vote >> meant, > > The vote meant we're going to stop using SLs, IMHO because it became > clear that whatever problems SLs were supposed to solve, they weren't > worth the cost. > > We haven't voted on what solutions we were going to recommend for the > problems that people claimed (sometiemes erroneously) that SL > addressed. > We haven't even agreed on what those problems are, or whether they all > really exist. Agreed. No replacement is also a replacement. That said, I think there is a lot left to discuss on what to recommend for the cases that have been brought up. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 04:23:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QBN2U3000171; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QBN23S000170; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QBMwU3000161 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QBK3Uu008927 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QBJvZA007169 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:19:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7QBJrd28406; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:19:53 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:19:52 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Tony Hain cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] In-Reply-To: <021001c36a83$f95fa1c0$63124104@eagleswings> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Aug 2003, Tony Hain wrote: > > This document seems to take for granted that local-use addressing is > > needed. Moreover, it lists requirements for every possible case where > > local-use address could be applied to (and, not for example, those > > cases where the local-use addressing is really necessary). > > Necessity is both the perception of the network manager in trying to > implement a local policy, and the availability of alternatives that > actually fit all of the local constraints. It may not be our business to enhance misguided perceptions of the network managers, rather than correct them. > > Process questions: > > > > 1. Shouldn't we first see the requirements for site-local > > replacement (and other issues) and not jump straight to the > > requirements for local addressing? > > I don't understand the question. My original draft started from the > premise that the WG should at least have the requirements for local > addressing before deciding that any given technology is either > acceptable or unacceptable. Site-local is a specific technology that > meets many of the needs of local addressing, but creates other problems > through its ambiguity. Getting rid of ambiguity does not remove the > requirements for local addressing. The ambiguity was just one reason to get rid of site-locals, and I believe a non-ambiguous version is already being worked at. However, my point is that we should not be advocating local-use addresses. It is far from clear where they're actually needed, and where they're actually the best solution. I.e., I think there was some sort of consensus in the SF IETF meeting that there is a need to do at least *something* after we deprecate site-local addressing; there are some scenarios where SL's were being imagined to be used -- and now we should figure out how to address the needs of those scenarios *in general terms*, rather than jumping straight to the requirements for local addressing. It might just be that we don't need local addressing in all of those scenarios (actually, I'm certain of that). > > 2. Then if we see that local addressing is required to do X, > > see that > > this document covers X adequately? > > If the goal is to design specific approaches for every scenario, then > this suggestion would be appropriate. The goal of the requirements > document at the moment is to aggregate multiple needs under a single > technical approach. If the WG decides that multiple approaches make more > sense, then there will need to be multiple requirements documents. Agree. Note that I'm not really strongly advocating separate documents, but that we AT LEAST figure out why such-and-such requirements are there. > > I don't send in more detailed comments on the draft, because > > I pretty much > > disagree with everything it says. > > I understand your network does not have these requirements, and if we > required everyone to implement local addresses I could understand some > degree of concern. What I don't understand is why you believe it is > appropriate to tell another network manager that his stated requirements > are invalid. I do not want a cure that is worse than the disease. That is, if we make local-use addresses work "too well", and applicable also in scenarios where it isn't needed -- people go for locals and not globals. That would be a serious disadvantage for IPv6. > > Just two notes: > > > > 3.1 -- "Network managers have stated, and historical experience has > > shown, that there is a need for addresses that do not require public > > registration." > > ==> there is no supporting evidence of this expect vague > > statements. > > Please be more explicit as I don't see how we can take this for given. > > Chasing down quotes is not appropriate. If you want to see more text about > people grabbing random space from documentation or currently using 1./8, I > suspect we can come up with that. I fail to see how this leads to the requirement for non-publicly-registered addresses. What's the problem with public registration? Perhaps there is just a problem how that has been done with IPv4. [snip] -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 04:37:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QBb9U3000438; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QBb9Ne000437; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QBb6U3000430 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QBYBV7023718 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QBY5kD011962 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7QBXp228547; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:33:52 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:33:51 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Michel Py cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Michel Py wrote: > > Pekka Savola wrote: > > What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out > > where we need local-use applications -- and, as an interim > > feature, maybe reword the current draft so that it's > > apparent which current perceived local-use scenarios > > require specific requirements. > > This appears to me the opposite of what is generally done within the > IETF. First we write requirements then we look at specific scenarios, > not the opposite. My point exactly! Why are we writing requirements for _local addressing_, and not writing requirements to solve the problems which people perceive exist in IPv6 after the elimination of site-locals?!!?!? > >> which is one of the reasons that eventually led to RFC1597. > >> What makes you believe that the reasons they did it in the > >> past do not exist anymore? > > > And what problems has this caused that are really, really > > problematic? > > NAT, in the first place. Please be a bit more specific on how that came to be. Do you mean that folks who hijacked the address space deployed NAT to be able to continue using their hijacked space inside their network but do one-to-one conversion at the border? > > On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a > > prefix for your running system. IPv6 addresses are quite > > obtainable nowadays if you're an equivalent of LIR. > > Doubly irrelevant to the discussion: first, you can't ask every network > to become a LIR; > second, the need for public addresses and local > addresses is totally different, so even if one enterprise has become a > LIR to obtain public addresses it does not remove the need for private > ones. Sure, but there are also other ways to obtain addresses. So, what you're really saying that folks would hijack prefixes to be used internally (instead of trying to use them externally). I wonder if that was the case of prefix hijacking by-and-then. Sites could very well get another /48 for internal-only connections, and /48 for public ones, I guess. Easy to filter at the edges, doesn't need to be routed, etc. Shouldn't be a huge problem in getting through RIR policies. > > In addition, compared to the situation back in 1994 (and > > earlier), people actually use Routing Registries to check > > advertisements. You really cannot assume that you could > > hijack a prefix and have it work in the Internet. > > I have live examples that use NAT for that purpose and some other people > have contributed the same here. > > You did not answer the question. The question is not why network > administrators are wrong to use local addresses. Wrong or not, and > whether you like it or not, they have, do and will use them. Putting > your head in the sand or stating that there are no reasons to use local > addressing is not going to change it. > > There are extremely large numbers of networks that currently use local > addressing; RFC1918 is not what created this situation: to the contrary > it is a by-product of their widespread use and created well-known > prefixes for them. > > What makes you thing that the requirements of all these networks have > changed? Given time, bogus requirements could be shown to be bogus. Perhaps SoBig and friends have enlightened some network managers to the fact that private addressing helps you not at all. I do not see the need to repeat IPv4's mistakes in IPv6. That's why we advocate dual-stack deployment. If you want to keep the broken designs, keep those IPv4-only. My (and others) goal is to show that the use of local addressing is not the right approach in many cases, and show some alternative means to achieve the same ends. If, in the end, the users wish to shoot them in the foot, we can't prevent that, but via these procedures I'd hope it's the 1% who do the shooting, not 99%. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 06:29:30 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QDTUU3002479; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QDTTLG002478; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QDTQU3002471 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QDQRUu015137 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QDOB8d029573 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:24:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.17]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA08239; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030826091806.0364ba38@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:22:46 -0400 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal Cc: Keith Moore , "Tony Hain" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <231F931A-D7A9-11D7-AA35-000A95880ECC@kurtis.pp.se> References: <20030825134254.6c01baba.moore@cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk [Dropped the IESG...] At 11:39 AM 8/26/2003 +0200, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: >Agreed. No replacement is also a replacement. That said, I think there is >a lot left to discuss on what to recommend for the cases that have been >brought up. I agree. There are a number of situations (disconnected sites, intermittently connected sites, etc.) where provider-allocated addressing is not a good method for address assignment. We need to figure out how these networks should be addressed. Our solution(s) may (or may not) require various properties of "local addressing": a provider-independent address prefix, addresses that are defined to have limited routability, addresses with special autoconfiguration properties, etc. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:22:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QELxU3003419; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QELxKu003418; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QELtU3003411 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEJ0Uu000987 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEIsF6004186 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226FA14029; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11758-01; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D175513FA6; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:16:54 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: Antonio Querubin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reverse delegation of 2002:xxxx:xxxx:: ? Message-Id: <20030826101654.7ada1ca7.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Does anybody know what the current procedure (if any) is for getting > reverse delegation of 6to4 address space going? I see 2.0.0.2.ip6.int but > no 2.0.0.2.in-addr.arpa zone. 2.0.0.2.in-addr.arpa would not be used with 6to4 in any case, since that's where you would look for information about the ipv4 address 2.0.0.2. there are still ongoing (private) conversations about draft-moore-6to4-dns-03.txt, but no real conclusions about direction. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:25:48 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEPmU3003495; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QEPmBD003494; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEPhU3003487 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEMnUu002098 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEMhF6007471 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8EA14053; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11682-10; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E12C14042; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:20:40 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Chirayu Patel" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng-incoming@danlan.com Subject: Re: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Message-Id: <20030826102040.221bca49.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <000101c36b89$5a3d1530$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> References: <200308252216.SAA14163@ss10.danlan.com> <000101c36b89$5a3d1530$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > |- If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice > > |versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though it > > |might work), but I am not sure. > > > > As long as this default can be changed without the cooperation on the > > applications (i.e., a global option for the stack) it would be ok... > > Modifications to the address selection policy table would help in achieving > this default without any change to the applications. unless you get conflicting policy from different interfaces, which is entirely possible. per-link policy is the wrong way to think about this. what you want is for each network to be able to say "here's the best way to get here from there given a variety of conditions"... and then minimize the number of conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:29:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QET1U3003584; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QET1ki003583; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QESvU3003573 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEQ2Uu003049 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-2.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.235]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEPtF6009628 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7QEPjEF233738; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:25:46 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7QEPp1b252188; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:25:52 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA44800; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:25:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:25:36 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Kruse CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SLreplacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The other point that's been missed here is that the security-by-hiding argument is only part of the story. Stable address space for intermittently connected networks, unambiguous address space for VPNs, and stable identifiers for multihoming, are also needed. Whatever your religion on the hiding argument, these other needs have to be met, and are not met by PA prefixes. Brian Hans Kruse wrote: > > I fear this discussion is headed in the wrong direction as far as the > decisions in this group. You are of course right that filtering (by > private or public addresses) at a border is not sufficient security. But > it DOES remove some unwanted traffic. Is this relevant to local addressing > -- probably not. However, I have become convinced that some form of local > addressing is required to allow network managers enough flexibility to > solve their design issues. I hope the WG can create these addresses, try > to insure that they won't break things (as SL apparently did), and move on. > > You mileage may (probably will) vary.... > > --On Monday, August 25, 2003 20:36 +0200 Leif Johansson > wrote: > > > By contrast your private address space does not protect your network from > > an attack which violates the basic assumption that there is an inside and > > an outside. The added twist from F.Sobig@mm and friends is that you no > > longer have to be a network security geek to appreciate this fact. > > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor > J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management > Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science > Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 > 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:39:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEdeU3004117; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QEdeGa004116; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEdaU3004106 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEafUu006821 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEaZOX018921 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:36:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7QENFj9012741; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:23:18 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Fred Templin'" Subject: Questions/Comments (was: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:08:57 +0530 Message-ID: <000b01c36bdf$cbc1f170$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QEdaU3004107 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, I am quite satisfied with the coverage of the requirements for local addressing. That said, I have a few questions, and comments. Questions --------- 1) What does the 3rd sentence in the 2nd para in section 3.4 mean? The sentence I am referring to is "Given the presence of the well-known prefix, an application that chooses to check can infer that there is an explicit....". What does the application choose to check in this case? 2) Section 3.5 mentions that absolute uniqueness is not required, but the probability of collisions should be extremely low. We should add text to make it mandatory for proposals to define following formulae: 1) Formula for probability of collision when "x" networks are merged, when "n" addresses have been chosen from the address space of "m" values. 2) Formula for probability to choose a duplicate address after "a" addresses have been chosen from the address space of "m". Presence of the formulae will allow comparing various proposals on the uniqueness front. Maybe we can also describe the values of x, a, and n (as proportions of m) in this draft. I am not sure how to do it though. 3) The requirement for conflict resolution (section 3.5) through a central registry seems to clash with section 3.1. On further thinking about it, I feel we should change the wording of section 3.1, and not make the requirement for not having public registration mechanism mandatory. I can't think of anything appropriate.... 4) I did not understand the requirement in section 3.6? My understanding is that this section refers to both - PI and non-globally routed, and PI and globally routed addresses. If this is so, can we have two subsections, and state that PI, and globally routed is a advantageous, but a "MAY" requirement, and if it is not satisfied, PI, and non-globally routed is "MUST". 5) I am not able to form the requirement stated in section 3.10. Can you rephrase? In the 2nd para of section 3.10, what policies do you imply? Where are these policies located? It also states that the policy decision moves from the edge of the originating device. Where does it move to? I guess, I am confused about the meaning of "policy". Once that is clear, I will get an answer for the other questions. 6) In the summary section, modify the line about Address to say that the "Address selection policy tables might need modifications to enable the selection limited range address space over global addresses". Actual details about the modifications should be specified in the proposals. 7) In the same section, I don't quite understand the meaning of the word "policy" in the first sentence of the 3rd para. Looking a bit closely it seems that there is overuse the word policy. The document talks of routing policy, operational policy, filtering policy, one-size-fits-all policy, policy without any qualification in front. At a minimum, all the usages of the word policy should have some qualification in front. 7) A high-level comment - Maybe we should add a section that says what information should be present in the proposals for local addresses apart from the requirements stated in Section 3. "Probability formulae" and "Effects on Address Selection" can go there. 8) The draft uses both the terms "limited range" and "local use". Can we narrow down to one term as much as possible? I prefer "limited range" Comments: --------- 1. Add a section named "MANETS", and you can put all the examples of the MANETS (section 4.3, and section 4.4) as subsections within that section. 2. Section 4.1 can be replaced by three sections - "Border filtering", "Maintaining confidentiality of the address space", and "Test networks". 3. Move some of the examples defined in section 3.5 to the scenarios, and explain them in more detail. Few on top of my head are - - "Home networks", - A scenario concerning applications that use IP addresses in the ACL or configuration can be added. Such applications include license servers that use the IP address, firewalls within the site, web site access mechanisms to allow access to only certain subnets. Since renumbering is very difficult for these cases, it is a strong case for stable IP addresses. 4. Definitions/acronyms - PI, PA, VPN, limited range 5. Move the scenario in Section 4. to a subsection (may be a subsection under the "Home Networks" section) like all the other scenarios. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] > On Behalf Of Fred Templin > > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > IPv6 wg item (see below)? ---------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:44:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEidU3004366; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QEid1Q004365; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEiaU3004355 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEffUu008364 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEe6Zg016239 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:40:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7QEe3J4047960; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:40:03 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7QEe91b162824; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:40:09 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA57540; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:40:02 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4B7139.86C2B8E0@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:39:53 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Kruse CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr... References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> <345403812.1061809118@hkruse2003a> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk How true. I'd be more than happy to forget the hain/templin draft if we can get this agreed quickly. The IETF has developed a silly habit of getting hung up on requirements drafts; maybe we should just not bother. Brian Hans Kruse wrote: > > Actually, I think draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr... is the higher > priority as far as becoming a WG item (or have I missed that move in the > flurry of messages). > > However, I support moving the draft below to the WG as well. I also agree > that it is not so much a requirements draft as a draft outlining scenarios > that may not be readily solvable through the use of global PA address > space. Maybe a title like "Addressing Support for Sites without Global > Address Space"? > > --On Friday, August 22, 2003 14:35 -0700 Fred Templin > wrote: > > > Folks - do we have consensus to accept this document as an > > IPv6 wg item (see below)? > > > > Fred > > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > > > > > Subject: > > I-D ACTION:draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt > > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor > J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management > Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science > Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 > 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 07:56:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEusU3004959; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QEusHh004956; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QEupU3004946 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QEruUu012784 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QEq4Zg029994 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2003 16:51:14 +0200 Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7QEngTH005575; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:49:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3F4B740C.7050702@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:51:56 -0700 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030812 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Hans Kruse , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SLreplacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > The other point that's been missed here is that the security-by-hiding > argument is only part of the story. Stable address space for > intermittently connected networks, unambiguous address space for VPNs, > and stable identifiers for multihoming, are also needed. Whatever your > religion on the hiding argument, these other needs have to be met, > and are not met by PA prefixes. And to be frank, Brian, I am not convinced that even this argument has been thought out well. For instance, how will systems be restricted from having both types of IP addresses? Will it be a host policy or a network policy? If it's a network policy, how does that work with stateless autoconfiguration? Eliot -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 08:49:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QFntU3005961; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QFnstb005960; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QFnpU3005953 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QFkuV7016030 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QFkoZA024317 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:46:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <00a601c36be9$4a8184e0$806015ac@dclkempt40> From: "James Kempf" To: "Shin Miyakawa" Cc: , References: <200308251631.MAA27097@ietf.org><024a01c36b29$8a01f0c0$806015ac@dclkempt40> <20030826.151731.02216493.miyakawa@nttv6.jp> Subject: Re: Comment on draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Authorization Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:47:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >It might therefore be helpful to take a look at draft-ietf-pkix-x509 > >before Last Call completes. > ++++++ > > Why "before" ??? > > I think that prefix delegation requirement draft can go forward > with or without draft-ietf-pkix-x509, isn't it ??? > Sure. But my point was that if there is change you believe is needed in draft-ietf-pkix-x509, it should be caught now while the draft is in Last Call. Otherwise, it may become RFC without something you need. jak -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 08:51:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QFpkU3006007; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QFpkVr006006; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QFpgU3005999 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QFmlUu002621 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QFmgF6011942 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:48:41 -0700 Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] thread-index: AcNrxfPlzO1b5brCRu+ZykGneMAEpAAGy5xw From: "Michel Py" To: "Pekka Savola" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QFphU3006000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka, > Pekka Savola wrote: > Do you mean that folks who hijacked the address space deployed > NAT to be able to continue using their hijacked space inside > their network but do one-to-one conversion at the border? Yes. Today it is extremely common to see this with RFC1918 addresses in the inside, but there still are a handful of networks that have hijacked non-RFC1918 space that don't see why they should bother renumbering, going by the rule if it ain't broke don't fix it. There is a chicken-and-egg argument on the timing, which is "did people use NAT to do this because NAT was available" or "was NAT developed for that purpose" but in the end the result is there. >>> On the other side, I fail to see the need to hijack a >>> prefix for your running system. IPv6 addresses are quite >>> obtainable nowadays if you're an equivalent of LIR. >> Doubly irrelevant to the discussion: first, you can't ask >> every network to become a LIR; second, the need for public >> addresses and local addresses is totally different, so >> even if one enterprise has become a LIR to obtain public >> addresses it does not remove the need for private ones. > Sure, but there are also other ways to obtain addresses. Really? Would you care naming one available today? > So, what you're really saying that folks would hijack > prefixes to be used internally (instead of trying to use > them externally). I wonder if that was the case of > prefix hijacking by-and-then. When I did hijack prefixes in the early 90's it was mostly a matter of convenience for internal use. > My (and others) goal is to show that the use of local > addressing is not the right approach in many cases, and show > some alternative means to achieve the same ends. It does not work that way. First, network administrators for the most part don't read this. Second, you have not been an enterprise network administrator for any significant time so they're not going to listen to you anyway. Third, the reasons enterprise network administrators make decisions are for a significant part based on experience; in other words the reason to use local addresses is either because some day one did not use them and got shot, or because some day one did use then and it saved one's butt so one keeps using them. What you have is untested theories about network design, what they have is years of experience that built a sense of what works and what does not. > I do not see the need to repeat IPv4's mistakes in IPv6. The mistake would be not to provide a local addressing solution and have to do RFC1597 for IPv6 again. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:16:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGGOU3006639; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGGNH7006638; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGGKU3006631 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGDPUu012578 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGDFFi019018 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7QGDBu32231; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:13:11 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:13:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: john.loughney@nokia.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: <200308251631.MAA27078@ietf.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, After a quick wdiff, two classes of comments: 1) some comments never made it to the draft, were they missed or rejected for some purpose? (Example: MLDv1 Source Address Selection document which has been approved by the IESG.) 2) a few typos I came across: Router Advertisement optionss is dependent on supporting the ==> s/ss/s/ If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD ==> s/going/going to/ At least the following two MIBs SHOULD be supported MIBs SHOULD be supported by nodes that support an SNMP agent. ==> forgot to finish rewording. On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : IPv6 Node Requirements > Author(s) : J. Loughney > Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt > Pages : 19 > Date : 2003-8-25 > > This document defines requirements for IPv6 nodes. It is expected > that IPv6 will be deployed in a wide range of devices and situations. > Specifying the requirements for IPv6 nodes allows IPv6 to function > well and interoperate in a large number of situations and > deployments. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:19:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGJdU3006709; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGJdTP006708; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGJZU3006698 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGGeV7027909 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGGXFi021347 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7QGGW417444 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:16:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:16:32 +0300 Received: from esebe020.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.59]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:16:31 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe020.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:16:30 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:16:30 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Thread-Index: AcNr7PsS2p0HxAZhTt22lxbf/Rh2lgAADeNg From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 16:16:30.0906 (UTC) FILETIME=[68F8C1A0:01C36BED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QGJZU3006699 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Pekka, > 1) some comments never made it to the draft, were they missed or rejected > for some purpose? (Example: MLDv1 Source Address Selection document which > has been approved by the IESG.) As there was noone speaking up for the MLDv1 Source Address Selection draft reference, I did not add it. > 2) a few typos I came across: > > Router Advertisement optionss is dependent on supporting the > > ==> s/ss/s/ > > If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD > > ==> s/going/going to/ > > At least the following two MIBs SHOULD be supported MIBs SHOULD be > supported by nodes that support an SNMP agent. > > ==> forgot to finish rewording. Will fix these. John > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > Internet-Drafts directories. > > This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group > Working Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : IPv6 Node Requirements > > Author(s) : J. Loughney > > Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt > > Pages : 19 > > Date : 2003-8-25 > > > > This document defines requirements for IPv6 nodes. It is expected > > that IPv6 will be deployed in a wide range of devices and > situations. > > Specifying the requirements for IPv6 nodes allows IPv6 to function > > well and interoperate in a large number of situations and > > deployments. > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:22:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGM6U3006792; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGM6aZ006791; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGM2U3006784 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGJ7Uu014738 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGJ2ZA009829 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:19:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7QGIqZ07752; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:18:52 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308261618> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdQ7LARI; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:18:50 PDT Message-ID: <3F4B8A77.201@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:27:35 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: Michel Py , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka, Pekka Savola wrote: >On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Michel Py wrote: > > >>>Pekka Savola wrote: >>>What I'm trying to say is that we need to first figure out >>>where we need local-use applications -- and, as an interim >>>feature, maybe reword the current draft so that it's >>>apparent which current perceived local-use scenarios >>>require specific requirements. >>> >>> >>This appears to me the opposite of what is generally done within the >>IETF. First we write requirements then we look at specific scenarios, >>not the opposite. >> >> > >My point exactly! Why are we writing requirements for _local addressing_, >and not writing requirements to solve the problems which people perceive >exist in IPv6 after the elimination of site-locals?!!?! > That is what the hain/templin draft is about! The title of the draft is: "Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites" The title articulates the problem space which is perceived as requiring new solutions after the elimination of site-locals; it is not pre-judging what those solutions should be. If you think any of the requirements or scenarios in the document are invalid and/or leaning too strongly in favor of a particular solution alternative, please send specific comments to that effect. (I saw that you did provide some pointed comments earlier; thanks for those.) Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com P.S. In case it is getting lost in the noise, the document ID is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-01.txt -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:30:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGU5U3007344; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGU5tM007343; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGU2U3007336 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGR7Uu018600 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGR1ZA013384 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:27:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7QGQdF32451; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:26:39 +0300 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:26:39 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Fred Templin cc: Michel Py , Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] In-Reply-To: <3F4B8A77.201@iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Fred Templin wrote: > Pekka Savola wrote: > >My point exactly! Why are we writing requirements for _local addressing_, > >and not writing requirements to solve the problems which people perceive > >exist in IPv6 after the elimination of site-locals?!!?! > > > > That is what the hain/templin draft is about! The title of the draft is: > > "Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites" Is the title supposed to be a pun? I.e., do you mean "to find solutions to requirements for local communications .." or "finding requirements for addressing mechanism to solve this problem" ? > The title articulates the problem space which is perceived as requiring > new solutions after the elimination of site-locals; it is not pre-judging > what those solutions should be. If you think any of the requirements or > scenarios in the document are invalid and/or leaning too strongly in favor > of a particular solution alternative, please send specific comments to that > effect. (I saw that you did provide some pointed comments earlier; > thanks for those.) As said, I disagree with pretty much all of the document, if it is *supposed* to be the requirements how to find solutions for IPv6 sites which seem impaired by IPv6 after SL's are dead. About the only non-solution specific thing about the document seems to be the title (depending on whether you take it for a pun or not..) The document assumes we need local addressing. That's already solutionism. Having a document which explores local addressing requirements may be OK -- but at least state it clearly and DON'T pretend otherwise! :-) -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:35:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGZoU3007855; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGZoIr007854; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGZkU3007847 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGWpV7005288 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGWkOX025385 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:32:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7QGIkj9013021; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:18:49 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: IPv6 Link-Local Use Issue for Applications Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:04:29 +0530 Message-ID: <004001c36bef$efd252c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <20030826102040.221bca49.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QGZlU3007848 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > |- If there is no match (I have only PUPI and DNS returns PA, or vice > > > |versa), I would suggest to fail the connection by default (even though > it > > > |might work), but I am not sure. > > > > > > As long as this default can be changed without the cooperation on the > > > applications (i.e., a global option for the stack) it would be ok... > > > > Modifications to the address selection policy table would help in > achieving > > this default without any change to the applications. > > unless you get conflicting policy from different interfaces, which is > entirely > possible. I am saying that a modification to the policy table (which is per host, and not per interface) is a solution. You can do it manually or through an automated mechanism. If you are using an automated mechanism, as I had suggested, getting conflicting policy from different interfaces implies that something wrong with the network engineering. There should be a way to detect it. > per-link policy is the wrong way to think about this. what you want is for > each network to be able to say "here's the best way to get here from there > given a variety of conditions"... and then minimize the number of conditions. I am not able to understand the text. Can you provide an example? CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:47:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGlXU3008458; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGlXFf008457; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGlTU3008450 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGiYUu027304 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.su.se (smtp2.su.se [130.237.93.212]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGiPmZ006052 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:44:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (smtp2.su.se [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.su.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2A4200028; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:44:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.su.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.su.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03158-07; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:44:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (nutcracker.it.su.se [130.237.95.69]) by smtp2.su.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74022004B6; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:44:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: by nutcracker.stacken.kth.se (Postfix, from userid 913) id E216DF39BE; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:24:29 +0200 (CEST) To: "Michel Py" Cc: Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Love_H=F6rnquist_=C5strand?= References: Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:24:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Michel Py's message of "Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:27:15 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at su.se Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Michel Py" writes: > Since I'm so dumb explain me why isn't the good car lock installed on > every car yet? It's not like the car lock problem is new. And why isn't > your miracle security setup installed on every network? We have a word > for people such as yourself that claim things that they don't have: > vaporware. Because people still think of "outside" and "inside". There is no inside or outside. There is a many outsides. Private addresses, by themself, gives you no more security the using non-private addresses, they still have to filtered somewhere. Will you trust your isp to not attack you ? Love BTW, acls are very nice vaporware, I use them every day. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (NetBSD) iQEVAwUAP0ttnXW+NPVfDpmCAQJ87AgAmnhiBEhR1UyYRuj6TkLDO3BzvjcNzRnz pfIw20nH6hgPP5qgwSfZDYBgrlWvirQXMbuwlPsHHptOP2RovnFAHv36IOANOlwn f7PzIxvhzWM8wIp83WwQCrMdTA2/zu8GQB2/IsqHl2XDECk4QXP12YwBeEERrdhZ qX//rN3ge6JdDiTup2PSpmgm8aoJ4PXAT7wgBLBse4I8Kp7MDsOZiffY/ynxhRIv STaDTUFuSzGVo6qWAejte0o/x059qQJ2CB0l6EEbXmOU5Tm87733CrdDgseCQljh fd9dT3O3mQs081x6U7p8pUo/Hd99aLt7yxblfM3TmMvz8MjTxAIdjg== =VAVk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 09:50:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGoHU3008595; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QGoGhV008592; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QGoDU3008584 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QGlIV7012050 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QGlCZA022684 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:47:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7QGl4R05467; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:04 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308261647> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdNiJQcL; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:47:02 PDT Message-ID: <3F4B9113.9030303@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:55:47 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: Michel Py , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: >On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Fred Templin wrote: > > >>Pekka Savola wrote: >> >> >>>My point exactly! Why are we writing requirements for _local addressing_, >>>and not writing requirements to solve the problems which people perceive >>>exist in IPv6 after the elimination of site-locals?!!?! >>> >>> >>> >>That is what the hain/templin draft is about! The title of the draft is: >> >> "Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites" >> >> > >Is the title supposed to be a pun? I.e., do you mean "to find solutions >to requirements for local communications .." or "finding requirements for >addressing mechanism to solve this problem" ? > The title says simply that there will be a need for "local communications within sites" and this need raises "addressing requirements" - nothing more. I have no idea how you could twist the meaning in the way you have; the english language isn't *that* ambiguous! Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 10:04:15 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QH4FU3009225; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QH4FG6009224; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QH4BU3009211 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QH1GV7019345 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QH1AOX005937 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4877) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:01:12 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Hans Kruse'" Cc: Subject: RE: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr... Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:59:07 -0700 Message-ID: <03e401c36bf3$5d021b70$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4B7139.86C2B8E0@zurich.ibm.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > How true. I'd be more than happy to forget the hain/templin > draft if we can get this agreed quickly. The IETF has > developed a silly habit of getting hung up on requirements > drafts; maybe we should just not bother. In many cases I agree. Yet one of the justifications for the vote in SF was that 'SL did not meet the requirements', but there was no documentation of the requirements. That is specifically why I put my initial draft together. If we all agree that a general purpose solution to the range of problems covered in the current draft is necessary, I for one would be happy to drop it. Unfortunately there appear to be a persistant few that refuse to acknowledge that some network managers are under different operating constraints than they are. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 10:08:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QH8jU3009418; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QH8j7v009417; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QH8fU3009410 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QH5kUu007758 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QH5fOX012113 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:05:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3131) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:05:45 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Eliot Lear'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: "'Hans Kruse'" , Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SLreplacement?[Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: <03e501c36bf4$23f42160$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4B740C.7050702@cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Eliot Lear wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > The other point that's been missed here is that the > security-by-hiding > > argument is only part of the story. Stable address space for > > intermittently connected networks, unambiguous address > space for VPNs, > > and stable identifiers for multihoming, are also needed. > Whatever your > > religion on the hiding argument, these other needs have to > be met, and > > are not met by PA prefixes. > > And to be frank, Brian, I am not convinced that even this > argument has > been thought out well. For instance, how will systems be restricted > from having both types of IP addresses? Some scenarios actually want both. Why do you assume that having both is a problem? > Will it be a host policy or a network policy? That needs to be a local decision. The IETF is not in the business of telling people how to run their networks. > If it's a network policy, how does that work with > stateless autoconfiguration? If the goal is only to allow local, then only put a local in the RA. If it is only to allow global, likewise. If there are to be a mix on the same wire, it is a host policy by definition. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 10:41:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QHfFU3010245; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QHfFBn010244; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QHfCU3010237 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QHcHUu023298 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digi-data.com (ns.digi-data.com [209.94.197.193]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QHcAZA015651 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:38:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from exchsvr.digi-data.com ([10.1.1.11]) by odin.digi-data.com with ESMTP id <119079>; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:38:03 -0400 Received: from digi-data.com ([10.1.1.31]) by exchsvr.digi-data.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:39:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3F4B9B88.3070305@digi-data.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:40:24 -0400 From: Robert Honore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Hain CC: ietf@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Solving the right problems ... References: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> In-Reply-To: <01df01c36a7b$840dbb80$63124104@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2003 17:39:09.0929 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4C79D90:01C36BF8] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Dear Tony Hain, Perhaps this proposal really requires another working group or something. I seem to remember someone making a similar proposal a several years ago on this list and it didn't seem to get a good reception then. For what it is worth, though, I really do think it is an idea whose time has come. It seems everyone has espoused the idea that the application *must* talk directly to the network transport in order to be efficient and/or resilient, but given the capabilities IPv6 is supposed to have, I wonder how much of a good idea it is to cling to that concept. It is not worthwhile to suggest that the direct application/transport interface be eliminated, but it should be possible for an application to specify what kind of service it wants from the (transport, network) combination and something is there to handle that where the requested service is different from that natively provided by the (transport,network) combination. Problem is that right now, every time an application needs such a service, the application programmer must code his own provisions for it, and none of the propositions I have seen discussed so far seems to deal with that. Keith Moore's statement is quite correct, viz: > Application developers need > reasonably stable and reliable endpoint identifiers. At present, the IP > address is the closest available approximation to such an identifier. Two questions arise out of that though, at least as far as Keith Moore's statement is concerned. The first one is how stable is stable? That is, how long is that identifier supposed to remain stable. And the second question is what should be the context of that identifier's validity? Also from Keith Moore: > Disagree. The layer needs to be between the current network and transport > layers. If the layer were between transport and applications, many of the > services provided by transport would end up having to be re-implemented in > higher layers. And > It would also force routing decisions to be made by layers > much more distant from the network layer that maintains reachability and state > information than the transport layer. Does Mr. Moore care to explain a little why he believes these two statements? As far as I can tell it needs not necessarily be so. Yours sincerely, Robert Honore. Tony Hain wrote: > In the ongoing saga about topology reality vs. application perception of > stability, it occurs to me we are not working on the right problem. In short > we have established a sacred invariant in the application / transport > interface, and the demands on either side of that interface are the root of > conflict. > > Mobile IP, and the multi6 DHT work are attempts to mitigate it through > slight of hand at the IP layer, while SCTP attempts to mask the topology > reality in the transport layer. (These are probably not the only examples, > but they are the ones that come to mind this morning.) Yet none of these > really do the job in all cases. > > We all agree that applications should not be aware of topology. At the same > time, application developers insist on the right to pass around incomplete > topology information. There are arguments that the IP address is overloaded > as an endpoint name. I don't particularly buy that, because the real > endpoint is either a protocol, or a specific port of a protocol. From one > perspective, when applications use addresses in referrals, they are > specifying that routing through a particular point in the topology will > reach the desired endpoint named 'transport/port-id'. But that is a > semantics and perception discussion which doesn't help reach the goal. > > In any case, what applications need is a stable reference to other > participants in the app. Yet we know that current and projected reality says > that topology is not stable, or consistently reachable. This could be due to > technology issues of the underlying links, or simple policy. Either way, the > network as seen by the transport layer is not, and will never be stable or > consistently reachable from everywhere. Given that, the direct interface > with the transport layer creates a failure mode for an application expecting > stability. > > Where this leads us is to the sacred invariant, and the need to solve the > problem in the right place. I suggest it is time for the IETF to realize > that the protocols are no longer being used in the network of 1985, so it is > time to insert a formal stabilization layer between application & transport. > > > Such a layer would be responsible for managing intermittent connectivity > states and varying attachment points of the transport layers below. > Applications that interact with this layer would be insulated from the > inconsistencies being experienced by the transport layer. It would also be > reasonable for this layer to manage multiple simultaneous transport > interactions so that the application perceived a single data path to its > peer. With appropriate trust between the stack and the network policy, this > would even simplify the process of QoS markings for parallel related data > sets. > > The next place that leads us is to a name space. At this point I see no > reason to avoid using the FQDN structure, but acknowledge that the DNS as > currently deployed is not even close to being up to the task. The protocols > are not so much the issue as the deployment and operation model that is > focused on a limited number of nodes operated by a small community of > guru's, where the expectation is that any changes occur on the order of > several days or longer. What we ultimately need in a name service to support > the suggested layer is the capability for every consumer device with > electrons in it to automatically and dynamically register its current > attachment information with rapid (that doesn't mean sub-second, more along > the lines of a cell phone that powers up away from its home) global > convergence. As there are multiple trust boundary issues involved (because > not every device will be subscribed to a service), making this scale will > require pushing the database distribution out to smaller pockets. Making it > reliable for Joe-sixpack will probably require that part of the > infrastructure exists on his side of the interconnect & trust boundary from > any other networks. Automating the attachment of a massive number of small > dataset servers will probably require something with better scaling > characteristics than the current DNSsec deployment model. > > Since many networks have usage policies established around the sacred > invariant, there will need to be some recommendations on how to apply those > policies to this new layer. We could even consider a protocol between this > layer and a policy entity that would aggregate applications into a policy > consistent with the what the network can deliver for various transport > protocols. This distribution of policy awareness would have much better > scaling characteristics than per app signaling, as well as the ability to > locally group unrelated transports that any given app might be using. > > Bottom line is that we are spending lots of time and effort trying to force > fit solutions into spaces where they don't work well and end up creating > other problems. We are doing this simply to maintain the perception of > stability up to the application, over a sacred interface to a very unstable > network. Stability to the application is required, but forcing applications > to have direct interaction with the transport layer is not. Yes we should > continue to allow that direct interaction, but we should be clear that there > are no guarantees of stability on that interface. If the application does > not want to take care of connections coming and going to the same device at > potentially different places, it needs to have an intermediate stabilization > layer available. > > Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 10:44:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QHiDU3010271; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QHiDvr010270; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QHiAU3010263 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QHfFV7007959 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QHf9OX001356 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:41:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4516) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:41:13 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Pekka Savola'" , "'Fred Templin'" Cc: "'Michel Py'" , Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:40:06 -0700 Message-ID: <03e801c36bf9$17289470$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QHiAU3010264 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > The document assumes we need local addressing. That's > already solutionism. Having a document which explores local > addressing > requirements may be OK -- but at least state it clearly and > DON'T pretend otherwise! :-) There is no intent to pretend. Maybe what you are trying to say is that the document needs to do a better job of documenting the requirement from the Application space that they be able to identify any non-globally accessible addresses so they can ignore them. This has been stated many times on the list, but is probably not well documented in the current draft. I suspect this is the core of your argument about why we don't need any local use addresses. In the abstract, any prefix can be kept out of the global routing system, and satisfy most of the scenarios in the draft. The issue comes when one wants to have some nodes with global access, while others are limited to local access. Mixing a single prefix in this environment creates a bottleneck & single point of failure in any edge access control, and assumes that the nodes are static in their attachment to the local topology. That set of constraints is unacceptable to many network managers, so their response will be to use nat to absolutely protect the nodes that need to be. An alternative is to use 2 prefixes in the network, where one is in the global routing system and the other is not. From a routing perspective there is no particular requirement that the restricted one be identifiable from the global one. Again, any prefix that is not in the global routing system achieves the protection goal. This brings us back to the requirements Keith and others have expressed, in that any address which is not globally accessable have a flag so they can choose to ignore it when referring literal topology attachments to others. At the same time, there are other scenarios where the application wants to know how to avoid global exposure. We can and should use the Bellovin/Zill approach to indicate which prefix is local, but we should also make the local flag well-known so that service providers put them on the bogon list. This helps reinforce the expectation that the prefix stays local, and removes the possibility of a single error exposing systems that should not be. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 11:17:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIHJU3011079; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QIHJBN011078; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIHGU3011071 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QIEKUu009810 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QIEFmZ017611 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7QIDTZ14613; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:29 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308261813> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdDMc8D8; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:26 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030826105146.02aca940@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:11:45 -0700 To: Thomas Narten , Margaret Wasserman From: Bob Hinden Subject: Request to Advance "Requirements for IPv6 prefix delegation" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg-secretary@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thomas, Margaret, The chairs of the IPv6 working group, on behalf of the working group, request that the following document be published as an Informational RFC: Title : Requirements for IPv6 prefix delegation Author(s) : S. Miyakawa, R. Droms Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-prefix-delegation-requirement-03.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2003-8-25 A working group last call for this document was completed on 14 July 2003. This draft resolves issues raised during the last call. Bob Hinden / Margaret Wasserman IPv6 Working Group Chairs -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 11:18:57 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIIvU3011120; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QIIuCl011119; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIIpU3011105 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QIFuUu010747 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QIFoOX022807 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:15:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3820) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:12:53 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Robert Honore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: <03f101c36bfd$82850740$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4B9B88.3070305@digi-data.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QIIpU3011106 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Robert Honore wrote: > Perhaps this proposal really requires another working group or > something. To be clear, I was not recommending where the work get done, that is why it was sent to the IETF list. I only cc'd the IPv6 list because it ties into the recent discussion. In fact it is not clear to me where this work belongs because the IETF area structure is very focused around the current layers. It is also not clear that a new area is required to create a new layer, but maybe that would help focus work in both defining how such a layer would interact both up and down, as well as name space and interaction protocols along the lines of HIP/DHT/... The only thing that was clear to me was that the efforts to change the behavior of lower layers only makes them more complex while creating unintended side effects. At the same time, an optional layer between app & transport could provide the consistency that some apps require, without changing the widely deployed and well refined lower layers. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 11:18:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIIwU3011123; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QIIwA8011122; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIIqU3011112 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QIFvUu010759 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QICoZg005282 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3820) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:12:53 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Robert Honore'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: <03f101c36bfd$82850740$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F4B9B88.3070305@digi-data.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7QIIqU3011113 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Robert Honore wrote: > Perhaps this proposal really requires another working group or > something. To be clear, I was not recommending where the work get done, that is why it was sent to the IETF list. I only cc'd the IPv6 list because it ties into the recent discussion. In fact it is not clear to me where this work belongs because the IETF area structure is very focused around the current layers. It is also not clear that a new area is required to create a new layer, but maybe that would help focus work in both defining how such a layer would interact both up and down, as well as name space and interaction protocols along the lines of HIP/DHT/... The only thing that was clear to me was that the efforts to change the behavior of lower layers only makes them more complex while creating unintended side effects. At the same time, an optional layer between app & transport could provide the consistency that some apps require, without changing the widely deployed and well refined lower layers. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 11:20:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIKOU3011197; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QIKO9l011196; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QIKLU3011189 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QIHQV7024749 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QIEHZg006667 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:14:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7QID5g14472; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:05 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308261813> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdU2gXan; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:13:04 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030826110815.00b53db8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:11:23 -0700 To: Thomas Narten , Margaret Wasserman From: Bob Hinden Subject: Request to Advance "IPv6 Node Requirements" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, iesg-secretary@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thomas, Margaret, The chairs of the IPv6 working group, on behalf of the working group, request that the following document be published as an Informational RFC: Title : IPv6 Node Requirements Author(s) : J. Loughney Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2003-8-25 A working group last call for this document was completed on 15 July 2003. This draft resolves issues raised during the last call. Bob Hinden / Margaret Wasserman IPv6 Working Group Chairs -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 12:21:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QJLEU3013006; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QJLEiB013005; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QJLAU3012998 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QJI0V7024828 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QJHsZA004732 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:17:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA26615; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308261917.PAA26615@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:17:49 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Deprecating Site Local Addresses Author(s) : C. Huitema, B. Carpenter Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2003-8-26 This document describes the issues surrounding the use of IPv6 site- local unicast addresses in their original form, and formally deprecates them. This deprecation does not prevent their continued use until a replacement has been standardized and implemented. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-26153606.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-26153606.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 13:27:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QKRcU3014285; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QKRcoa014284; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QKRXU3014273 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QKOcUu006953 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QKOXFi023820 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7QKOVg25404; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:24:31 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308262024> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpddqqN8J; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:24:29 PDT Message-ID: <3F4BC40B.3050706@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:33:15 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: Brian E Carpenter , huitema@microsoft.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt References: <200308261917.PAA26615@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian and Christian, Very good draft, but in the first sentence of section 4 please s/link-local/site-local. I believe the same comment applies also to the first sentence of section 5, but please check my thinking on that one. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Deprecating Site Local Addresses > Author(s) : C. Huitema, B. Carpenter > Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2003-8-26 > >This document describes the issues surrounding the use of IPv6 site- >local unicast addresses in their original form, and formally >deprecates them. This deprecation does not prevent their continued >use until a replacement has been standardized and implemented. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 14:17:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QLHPU3016731; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7QLHPG6016730; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7QLHLU3016723 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7QLEQV7015354 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7QLAmZg025167 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:10:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HK800CNWW5Z72@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:10:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.20]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HK800KRVW5YR9@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:10:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:10:46 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F4BCCD6.4080903@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <200308261917.PAA26615@ietf.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I was first happy to see this document coming. However, I'm a bit disappointed. The section on the ambiguity of SL is good, still I'm not sure those are the only problems with SL... But, what is more worrisome is the notion that the ipng wg has to find a replacement for SL: "In its meeting in March 2003, the group reached a measure of agreement that these issues were serious enough to warrant a replacement of site local addresses in their original form" From the current discussion, this is not at all clear that this is waht we have to do. As Margaret articulated very clearly: > There are a number of situations (disconnected sites, > intermittently connected sites, etc.) where provider-allocated > addressing is not a good method for address assignment. > > We need to figure out how these networks should be addressed. > Our solution(s) may (or may not) require various properties of > "local addressing": a provider-independent address prefix, > addresses that are defined to have limited routability, > addresses with special autoconfiguration properties, etc. > > Margaret Also worrisome is the implicit endorsement of the Hain/Templin and Hinden/Haberman drafts as 'the' replacement solution: "Obviously, site locals also have some benefits, without which they would have been removed from the specification long ago. The perceived benefits of site local are that they are simple, stable, and private [Hain/Templin]. However, it appears that these benefits can be also obtained with an alternative architecture, for example [Hinden/Haberman], in which addresses are not ambiguous and do not have a simple explicit scope." Hinting that there is work currently underway to provide solutions where SL was useful and PA does not work is ok. Taking side in the current raging debate over those two drafts in not ok. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 19:36:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2afU3024050; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R2afTJ024049; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2abU3024042 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2XgUu008243 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2XbFi029993 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B10140D9 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29502-01; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDDE140CD; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:31:33 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: comment digest Message-Id: <20030826223133.2d2561a9.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk contents: On list bandwidth and message volume On the "need" for "local addressing" On use of link-local addresses by IPv6 applications On address selection policy On "solving the right problems" and the layer of indirection On "The IETF doesn't tell people how to run their networks" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I. On list bandwidth and message volume: This message is an experiment. Some people have expressed concerns about the number of messages being sent to this list. Personally I think we have a tremendous amount of work to do here, and I don't see how we can accomplish that much work without a high-bandwidth discussion. However I am sure that there are better ways to make use of the bandwidth we have than to have very long threads where we argue about minute details of each other's musings. (On the other hand, if we make independent statements rather than following up to each other's statements, this imposes its own barriers to closure.) For now I've decided to try to respond to several points in a single message to be sent out approximately once per day (for the days I read mail, which isn't every day). I might also send out some individual messages or replies, but presumably fewer than before. I'll probably also put a few of these summaries on web pages so that in the future I can refer to them by URL and not have to repeat them. I'm interested in hearing (via private mail) how well this works for people. I will probably vary the format a bit depending on the feedback I get. One request: if you do choose to respond to the list about something in this message, please pick a meaningful subject rather than the global subject of this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- II. On the "need" for "local addressing" Several people maintain that network admins will insist on local addressing. A few have countered that network admins are quite aware of the problems associated with local addressing and NATs in IPv4. I'm wondering if this is essentially a tools and/or a marketing problem. That is, maybe we need to a. standardize the addressing solution that makes the most sense for support of applications and actual operations, b. provide tools that make it easy and foolproof to restrict access and/or hide networks that aren't supposed to be externally visible, and c. market these addresses and tools in such a way that they'll sound like "the right thing" to network admins, and especially, their bosses. Of course, IETF is not a marketing organization, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore human nature. So if we need to slap the words "local addresses" in some document title, and then explain how GUPIs or PUPIs or whatever serve that need, for the sake of appearances, let's do so. And if we can find a way to make it easy to get the configuration right at the borders of a network beyond which PUPIs aren't supposed to be visible, fine - as long as we're not placing a huge burden on hosts or apps. But when we're talking among ourselves, it seems (on a technical level) better to avoid the complexity that comes with firmly associating a single specific and fairly arbitrary network boundary with an address format. And it seems clearer if we use a less-loaded term than "local addresses" when talking among ourselves - even while we acknowledge that blocks of these addresses will sometimes (perhaps often) be confined to enclaves. (Personally I suspect the idea of the "site" with definite boundaries is something of an anachronism - since I'm increasingly hearing of cases where people are pulling their hair out trying to glue together separate "sites" with NATs and make the result look seamless. But I don't want to overlook the hazards of poor marketing.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- III. On use of link-local addresses by IPv6 applications I think I've said most of this before, but a summary might help. I see several general problems with the use of link-local addresses by apps: 1. By design, they won't route outside a single link, but even for small ad hoc networks or home networks we're seeing a mixture of link technologies in use. Yes, you can sometimes bridge them, but not always, and bridging introduces its own set of problems. 2. Not all apps can use them, and many of those that can use LLs cannot use them in all conditions, depending on (to users) obscure details of the way the network is organized. It would be better if small networks behaved in ways that ordinary users could understand and predict. 3. Of the apps that can use them, sometimes you have to configure the app to behave differently depending on the network configuration. For instance, under normal circumstances you might want the app to ignore LL addresses, but if it's running on an isolated single-link network then you might have to configure the app to use them. And in general you can't expect the app to detect this. 4. A network that is initially single-link might acquire some external connections and routing capability, and transitioning apps from LL to another kind of address (so that other nodes can participate in existing apps) is disruptive. That, and we need a solution for self-organizing networks anyway, and there seem to be good reasons to treat a single-link network as just a component of (or a trivial case of) a self-organizing network. Granted, we don't have the technology for self-organizing networks yet. In the meantime, people will have to cope with whatever is already there. But think our efforts are better directed toward making self-organizing networks function well than to try to make LLs be the solution for such networks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- IV. On address selection policy I don't think making the policy settable on a per-stack basis is a good idea because different apps have different needs, and a policy that is appropriate for one app will prevent the operation of another app on the same host. Also, it's another knob that users have to understand and that tech support has to deal with. I don't think letting each link specify policy is a good idea, partially because a reliance on address solution (at least, as it's currently envisioned) makes referrals more difficult for apps, but also because a host might quite reasonably be connected to more than one network through more than one interface, and the policies of the various networks can conflict. And again, different apps need different policies - some need to favor stability over response time, some vice versa. It gets very complex to sort all of this out. Besides, I think we can develop better mechanisms than either of these. "Chirayu Patel" wrote: > If you are using an automated mechanism, as I had suggested, getting > conflicting policy from different interfaces implies that something > wrong with the network engineering. I don't think so, because of the liklihood for a host to connect to different networks. Chirayu also asked for a clarification on this bit that I wrote: > per-link policy is the wrong way to think about this. what you want > is for each network to be able to say "here's the best way to get > here from there given a variety of conditions"... and then minimize > the number of conditions. I admit this is a bit vague, and it's not fully developed. I have been looking at various scenarios for connecting networks - some of them core-connected with PA addresses, some of them not core-connected but with interconnections to other networks; some of them self-organizing, others with managed routing and assignments; some of them fixed, some of them mobile; etc. The possible interconnections in between them are almost arbitrary (and these interconnections might or might not allow transit through the network). The interconnections will change over time and the networks will sometimes have to transition from one kind of address to another, and sometimes they'll have to deal with multiple kinds of addresses, but you want this to work as smoothly as possible. Then you have to consider what the world looks like to apps running on these networks that are using a variety of kinds of address space. And finally you have to decide at what point the app's responsibility ends and the network's responsibility begins (or the other way around if you're used to looking at things from layer 3). Anyway, by "minimizing the number of conditions" I really meant minimizing the number of prefixes, and types of prefixes, that a host or app or network has to deal with, to the minimum required to do the job. The more prefixes we have to choose from, the harder it is to make the right choice, and the more ways we have for things to fail. By "here's the best way to get there from here" what I meant was that the problem of host A figuring out how to send to attachment point B looks a lot more like a routing problem than an address selection problem. And once again, routing is a lot less confusing if you have a (more-or-less) uniform way of naming points in the network. (years of struggling with trying to weave uucp and DECnet and BITNET and Internet mail together into a coherent whole convinced me of that) Sorry, that's still vague. I'm working on a better explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- V. On "solving the right problems" and the layer of indirection This is another attempt to summarize, that may end up on a web page. One reason that I maintain that the layer of indirection to support mobility has to go between layer 3 and 4 is that if a TCP connection breaks due to a prefix change, the app has no way of knowing how much data got to the other end. It doesn't see the TCP-level acks, and even if it did, those acks only mean the data got to the destination host - it doesn't mean the data got to the app. So you really need the indirection layer to go below TCP so that TCP's error recovery can handle the case where you lose data due to a prefix change. However I don't see lump prefix changes that happen due to your network changing connectivity in the category of "mobility", and I don't think of address selection or prefix substitution as examples of mobility either. If you had a layer that tried to hide the details of which address to use from apps, IMHO it would be just below layer 7. (Though as far as I can tell, it's more confusing and disruptive to try to hide those details from apps than to give them good APIs to deal with them explicitly.) So to me it seems to make sense to treat "mobility" (where your network disconnects from one point of the network and reconnects to another, probably because it's moved through physical space) very differently than changes in network connectivity or policy that might require migrating to a new kind of prefix but don't necessarily break existing signal paths. At any rate, it might be that this is the crux of this particular disagreement between me and Tony. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VI. On "The IETF doesn't tell people how to run their networks" Tony says that "The IETF is not in the business of telling people how to run their networks" but of course that's wrong - the very purpose of IETF is to specify how networks are to be operated, at various levels of detail. There's little point to TCP or IP if higher-level protocols can't make any expectations about what services the network will provide; and none of our widely-deployed apps would be nearly so successful if apps couldn't make such expectations. Both email and the web, for instance, depend heavily on the expectation that there's a large "core" Internet that looks flat to the periphery; this is the fundamental assumption that allows for the exchange of email and the ability to access web pages between domains with no prior arrangement. Of course IETF doesn't demand, for instance, that you permit a certain kind of traffic on your network, or that you provide transit for third party traffic across your network. But neither can you expect your apps to work if you organize it in an arbitrary way or impose arbitrary constraints on what your network does. One way to describe IETF's job (relative to IPv6) is to define the behavior of the network such that apps will work well. Of course, we have to be realistic about what we expect of the network, and this necessarily involves a compromise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 19:45:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2jiU3024270; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R2jiBF024269; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2jaU3024255 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2gfV7001073 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from YXWJ ([219.237.88.86]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2cmZg023381 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308270238.h7R2cmZg023381@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:26 +0800 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_007094F9" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_007094F9 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Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 19:53:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2rGU3024586; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R2rFLu024585; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2rBU3024575 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2oGUu013663 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2oAOX004027 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:50:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h7R2o80T007888 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:50:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-176.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.176]) by az33exr04.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h7R2o3tI004324 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:50:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3F4C1C59.50E9FBCE@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:50:01 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I agree with Brian - the security issues are not the driving force in local addressing. The requirements I want are simple: * I want to be able to create prefixes ex-nihilo (from nothing), without involving the user, the internet, or anything other than my router or collection of routers. * I want an acceptable level of uniqueness from these prefixes, so that I can connect (physically or via VPN) on such network to another without worrying about address collision. * I want "internal" applications to be able to keep communicating with each other regardless of the presense or absence of connections to the global internet or to other clusters of self-configuring routers. The 'filtering' requirement is not driven by security, but by a realisation that any self-created prefix is not going to fit within the aggregable PA architecture of the current internet. Thus, to protect the routing tables we need to filter the self-created space. Given these requirements, even the Hinden / Carpenter draft doesn't completely fulfil them, since it requires manual configuration of the prefix (via an algorithm, but it's still 'manual') and a mechanism to propagate that prefix within the local network. So far the best solution I've seen is to take a /12 prefix (I've been using fef0::/12, but fdf:://12 would work as well), append a MAC or EUI-48 (to /60) and still have four bits left over if you need to subdivide further (eg to generate prefixes for interfaces without an EUI-48 or MAC). The only drawback here is that each router generates a prefix that is only aggregable at the /60 (per-router) level and the /12 (universal) level, but since this is designed for self-contained ad-hoc networks with at the extreme a couple of hundred nodes (and more usually less than 10 or so) routing table bloat is not really an issue. Since each router administers it's own prefixes there is no need for prefix propagation, and the routing protocol takes care of the rest of the packet delivery infrastructure. Incidentally, I've come to realise the 'referral' argument is a minor concern. If you're in a "local networking" world, you only want to do referrals to other nodes in your world. If you're in a "global" world, then you of course do global stuff. The only potential issue is when you're in a overlaid world, but then I'd suggest that it's the job of the person running the application to determine which world the application should prefer. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 19:55:24 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2tNU3024698; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R2tNh1024697; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2tIU3024684 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2qMV7004471 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paf.se (argc.paf.se [195.66.31.71]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2qFZA011138 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:52:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.1) with PIPE id 1131018; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:56:02 +0200 Received: from localhost [127.0.0.1] by argc.paf.se with SpamAssassin (2.55 1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:55:55 +0200 From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:26 +0800 Message-Id: <200308270238.h7R2cmZg023381@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Status: Yes, hits=8.7 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,MISSING_MIMEOLE,MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3, NO_REAL_NAME,RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100,RAZOR2_CHECK, RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM,RCVD_IN_RFCI version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: ******** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_3F4C1DBB.2FD31CBE" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------=_3F4C1DBB.2FD31CBE Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This mail is probably spam. The original message has been attached along with this report, so you can recognize or block similar unwanted mail in future. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. Content preview: This is a multipart message in MIME format See the attached file for details [skipped application/octet-stream attachment] IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com [...] Content analysis details: (8.70 points, 5 required) NO_REAL_NAME (1.1 points) From: does not include a real name RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_91_100 (1.2 points) BODY: Razor2 gives a spam confidence level between 91 and 100 [cf: 100] MICROSOFT_EXECUTABLE (0.1 points) RAW: Message includes Microsoft executable program RAZOR2_CHECK (0.9 points) Listed in Razor2, see http://razor.sf.net/ MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_3 (0.9 points) 'Message-Id' was added by a relay (3) RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM (0.9 points) RBL: Received via a relay in relays.osirusoft.com [RBL check: found 86.88.237.219.relays.osirusoft.com.] RCVD_IN_RFCI (1.1 points) RBL: Received via a relay in ipwhois.rfc-ignorant.org [RBL check: found 86.88.237.219.ipwhois.rfc-ignorant.org., type: 127.0.0.6] MISSING_MIMEOLE (0.1 points) Message has X-MSMail-Priority, but no X-MimeOLE MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART (0.2 points) Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK (2.2 points) Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook The original message did not contain plain text, and may be unsafe to open with some email clients; in particular, it may contain a virus, or confirm that your address can receive spam. If you wish to view it, it may be safer to save it to a file and open it with an editor. ------------=_3F4C1DBB.2FD31CBE Content-Type: message/rfc822; x-spam-type=original Content-Description: original message before SpamAssassin Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Envelope-To: eva@tibbir.se X-Spam-Status: SpamAssassin Failed Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com ([192.18.98.34] verified) by paf.se (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1) with ESMTP id 1131016 for eva@tibbir.se; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:55:17 +0200 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2kJOX029442; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2hFVU011346; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2jiU3024270; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R2jiBF024269; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R2jaU3024255 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R2gfV7001073 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from YXWJ ([219.237.88.86]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R2cmZg023381 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308270238.h7R2cmZg023381@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Your application Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:26 +0800 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA8BgAAWEMwMDE4MTVk --_NextPart_000_007094F9-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------=_3F4C1DBB.2FD31CBE-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 20:58:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R3wjU3027083; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R3wjeu027082; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R3wgU3027075 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R3tlUu004172 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R3teZA000295 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:55:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7R3gEj9014428; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:42:16 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Fred Templin'" Subject: RE: reqs for local addressing OR requirements for SL replacement? [Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item?] Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:28:03 +0530 Message-ID: <006e01c36c4f$6ddb4a50$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <3F4B9113.9030303@iprg.nokia.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7R3wgU3027076 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >>That is what the hain/templin draft is about! The title of the draft is: > >> > >> "Addressing Requirements for Local Communications within Sites" > > > >Is the title supposed to be a pun? I.e., do you mean "to find solutions > >to requirements for local communications .." or "finding requirements for > >addressing mechanism to solve this problem" ? > > The title says simply that there will be a need for "local communications > within sites" and this need raises "addressing requirements" - nothing more. > I have no idea how you could twist the meaning in the way you have; the > english language isn't *that* ambiguous! :-) "Addressing" - "Requirements for Local Communications within Sites" -or- "Addressing Requirements" - "for Local Communications within Sites" -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 23:09:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R69GU3029271; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R69GHc029270; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R69CU3029263 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R66HUu015345 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nosense.org (29.cust8.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.235.29]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R66AOX023804 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:06:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Dupy2.nosense.org (29.cust8.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.102.235.29]) by nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3BF173F048; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:36:18 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:36:17 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing Message-Id: <20030827153617.7971c092.ipv6@nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <3F4C1C59.50E9FBCE@motorola.com> References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> <3F4C1C59.50E9FBCE@motorola.com> Organization: The No Sense Organisation X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:50:01 +1000 Andrew White wrote: > I agree with Brian - the security issues are not the driving force in local > addressing. > > The requirements I want are simple: > > * I want to be able to create prefixes ex-nihilo (from nothing), without > involving the user, the internet, or anything other than my router or > collection of routers. > > * I want an acceptable level of uniqueness from these prefixes, so that I > can connect (physically or via VPN) on such network to another without > worrying about address collision. > > * I want "internal" applications to be able to keep communicating with each > other regardless of the presense or absence of connections to the global > internet or to other clusters of self-configuring routers. > > The 'filtering' requirement is not driven by security, but by a realisation > that any self-created prefix is not going to fit within the aggregable PA > architecture of the current internet. Thus, to protect the routing tables > we need to filter the self-created space. > > > Given these requirements, even the Hinden / Carpenter draft doesn't > completely fulfil them, since it requires manual configuration of the prefix > (via an algorithm, but it's still 'manual') and a mechanism to propagate > that prefix within the local network. So far the best solution I've seen is > to take a /12 prefix (I've been using fef0::/12, but fdf:://12 would work as > well), append a MAC or EUI-48 (to /60) and still have four bits left over if > you need to subdivide further (eg to generate prefixes for interfaces > without an EUI-48 or MAC). > > The only drawback here is that each router generates a prefix that is only > aggregable at the /60 (per-router) level and the /12 (universal) level, but > since this is designed for self-contained ad-hoc networks with at the Why are you assuming an "ad-hoc network with at the extreme a couple of hundred nodes" ? I consider your requirements to be equally applicable to an architected enterprise (or other large) network supporting 1000s, 100 000s or even millions of nodes, which is likely to contain a larger number of routes such that route aggregation is attractive for network stability reasons, or even necessary to cope with equipment limitations. Only being able to aggregate within the network at between /60 - /64 really limits the usefulness of aggregation. I do like the idea of autoconfiguration, but in larger networks, it can start to work against you - your network can start doing things behind your back that make it terrible to diagnose faults. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 23:18:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R6IrU3029532; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R6IrZA029531; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R6InU3029522 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R6FsV7008897 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klapautius.it.su.se (as13-3-2.rny.s.bonet.se [217.215.166.49]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R6FlFi021121 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from it.su.se (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by klapautius.it.su.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7R6Fbh01542; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:15:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4C4C89.9040903@it.su.se> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:15:37 +0200 From: Leif Johansson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: wiki References: <20030826223133.2d2561a9.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <20030826223133.2d2561a9.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If people like the idea of keeping (carefully worded) arguments and discussions on web-pages this might be an apropriate job for a wiki. Just a thought. ~ Cheers Leif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/TEyJ8Jx8FtbMZncRAja8AJ4jOraziQUHbaDO1NHkdANCLI65dgCgvBv3 SL0fJDwh5jW2kyPX6ErU4Ys= =XQOa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Aug 26 23:37:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R6bmU3000032; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R6bmgJ000031; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R6biU3000024 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R6YmUu024725 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R6YhmZ014063 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h7R6YgPf012272 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:34:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-176.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.176]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h7R6YbLR022376 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:34:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3F4C50FF.8D145025@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:34:39 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: reqs for local addressing References: <3F4A5724.8010808@it.su.se> <360916562.1061824631@hkruse2003a> <3F4B6DE0.D6125388@zurich.ibm.com> <3F4C1C59.50E9FBCE@motorola.com> <20030827153617.7971c092.ipv6@nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark Smith wrote: > > Why are you assuming an "ad-hoc network with at the extreme a couple of > hundred nodes" ? and then wrote > I do like the idea of autoconfiguration, but in larger networks, it can > start to work against you - your network can start doing things behind > your back that make it terrible to diagnose faults. I think you just answered your own question. :) That said, I believe there are situations where local addressing is appropriate in a configured network, mainly to exploit the PI aspect of it. The difference between such networks and the ad-hoc ones I have in mind is that an architected network can partition their PI space in an aggregated manner, exactly as they would do for PA space. So requirements 2 and 3 are still applicable, but requirement 1 is not (as we both agree that someone is exercising at least some control over how the routers are configured). This still leaves the knotty problem of which address to use by default. I'm still of the opinion that the most sensible option is for the 'system' to suggest that the application by default use the smallest applicable common scope (known to the system), but make it easy for the application to override that recommendation if it thinks it knows better. There are three situations that readily come to mind where an application might want to override the default: * application uses address-based referrals. * particular addresses are known to have short lifetimes and the application plans a long-lived connection. * using link-local addresses in an environment where a device could move between links yet meaningfully keep a constant higher-level address. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 00:29:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R7TIU3001196; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R7TIgW001195; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R7TEU3001182 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R7QJV7002795 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R7QDmZ029083 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:26:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7R7QA408422 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:10 +0300 Received: from esebe004.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.44]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:10 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:10 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: comment digest Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:26:08 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: comment digest Thread-Index: AcNsRONO6c2ri/WTT5K+grOCZ1pRKgAJO18Q From: To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 07:26:10.0013 (UTC) FILETIME=[7CA790D0:01C36C6C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7R7TEU3001183 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Keith, I've been scratching my head over this whole (collective) discussion, and at the end of the day, I find myself collecting the arguments into a few boxes, some of the boxes are clearly out of scope for the IETF: 1) OS support - current POSIX OSs have a certain model for handling IP addresses, and address ambiguity creates problems for existing applications (& application writers). Application milage may vary with different OSs. I can think of other OSs that may do better or worse. 2) UI support - how do applications (& users) understand the difference between global & local (addresses & operations). How do we map these properties onto interfaces, links, etc. UI I mean in a broad sense, as how the user (human, silicon or code) of an address uses the address 3) Creating mechanisms for unambiguous addresses that may have additional properties like local and global. 4) Religious support - this is a rather large box that I'm going to toss much of the discussion for topics like need or non-need of local addressing; any sentence that contains the word NAT, and so forth. Clearly ignoring point 4, what I am left is that point 3 is clearly within the IETF's scope. I'd like for us to define a mechanism that clearly supports mechanisms for creating unambigious addresses that can have both global and local properties. Point 2 may have relevance to the IETF, but I think we would create some guidelines to applications developers, APIs, etc. I think that point 1 is clearly outside of the IETF's mandate, so we shouldn't go there. >From the various mails, there seem to be a sizable group of people who want to have the option of some sort of local addressing. I think we should provide a mecahism that supports that need/desire but also allows applications to disregard local addresses if they want to. br, John > II. On the "need" for "local addressing" > > Several people maintain that network admins will insist on local addressing. > A few have countered that network admins are quite aware of the problems > associated with local addressing and NATs in IPv4. > > I'm wondering if this is essentially a tools and/or a marketing problem. That > is, maybe we need to > > a. standardize the addressing solution that makes the most sense for support > of applications and actual operations, > > b. provide tools that make it easy and foolproof to restrict access and/or > hide networks that aren't supposed to be externally visible, and > > c. market these addresses and tools in such a way that they'll sound like "the > right thing" to network admins, and especially, their bosses. > > Of course, IETF is not a marketing organization, but that doesn't mean > we have to ignore human nature. > > So if we need to slap the words "local addresses" in some document title, and > then explain how GUPIs or PUPIs or whatever serve that need, for the sake of > appearances, let's do so. And if we can find a way to make it easy to get the > configuration right at the borders of a network beyond which PUPIs aren't > supposed to be visible, fine - as long as we're not placing a huge burden on > hosts or apps. > > But when we're talking among ourselves, it seems (on a technical level) better > to avoid the complexity that comes with firmly associating a single specific > and fairly arbitrary network boundary with an address format. And it seems > clearer if we use a less-loaded term than "local addresses" when talking among > ourselves - even while we acknowledge that blocks of these addresses will > sometimes (perhaps often) be confined to enclaves. > > (Personally I suspect the idea of the "site" with definite boundaries is > something of an anachronism - since I'm increasingly hearing of cases where > people are pulling their hair out trying to glue together separate "sites" > with NATs and make the result look seamless. But I don't want to overlook > the hazards of poor marketing.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 00:40:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R7eiU3001521; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R7eiAS001520; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R7efU3001513 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R7bjUu014485 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R7bcFi006915 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7R7bZB19300 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:35 +0300 Received: from esebe007.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.47]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:35 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe007.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:34 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:34 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Solving the right problems ... Thread-Index: AcNr/wN22GQCvWYeRu+JsvvT4vrWugAbs6OA From: To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 07:37:34.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[14DA0260:01C36C6E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7R7efU3001514 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony, A very quick question about your idea. Does this layer have a protocol / interface to other elements on the network? Or are you proposing something more like an abstract API? thanks, John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Tony Hain [mailto:alh-ietf@tndh.net] > Sent: 26 August, 2003 21:12 > To: 'Robert Honore' > Cc: ietf@ietf.org; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... > > > Robert Honore wrote: > > Perhaps this proposal really requires another working group or > > something. > > To be clear, I was not recommending where the work get done, that is why it > was sent to the IETF list. I only cc'd the IPv6 list because it ties into > the recent discussion. In fact it is not clear to me where this work belongs > because the IETF area structure is very focused around the current layers. > It is also not clear that a new area is required to create a new layer, but > maybe that would help focus work in both defining how such a layer would > interact both up and down, as well as name space and interaction protocols > along the lines of HIP/DHT/... > > The only thing that was clear to me was that the efforts to change the > behavior of lower layers only makes them more complex while creating > unintended side effects. At the same time, an optional layer between app & > transport could provide the consistency that some apps require, without > changing the widely deployed and well refined lower layers. > > Tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 01:19:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R8JMU3002397; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:16:13 +0300 Received: from esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.41]) by esebh003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:16:13 +0300 Received: from esebe021.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.104]) by esebe009.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:16:12 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: test mail, please ignore Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:16:12 +0300 Message-ID: <7AB8A321754AC94E9D6753AB81439C2F1098DE@esebe021.ntc.nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: test mail, please ignore Thread-Index: AcNsc3pF4d73G9hHRl2B7Gbs3sCudg== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 08:16:12.0977 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A8F8210:01C36C73] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7R8JIU3002381 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk . -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 01:59:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R8xGU3003127; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R8xGoP003126; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R8xCU3003119 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R8uHUu007225 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R8uCFi024569 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2003 01:56:13 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7R8uBt0018332; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (ssh-sjc-1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id ABW20876; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827030720.046c2da0@flask.cisco.com> X-Sender: rdroms@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:18:17 -0400 To: iesg@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: FW: AD response to Site-Local Appeal In-Reply-To: <20030825134254.6c01baba.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> <090801c3585b$c2879700$70144104@eagleswings> <02de01c36b2d$6826f5f0$63124104@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I agree with Keith that the vote meant "stop using SLs". I don't think there is any reason to believe the vote was taken to answer the question "stop using SLs because XXX". People often choose to vote the same way as others on a specific issue for many different reasons. We could have asked several questions, each asking about stopping the use of SLs for a different specific reason. But we didn't ask those questions - and it might be good we didn't, as the results might have been even more ambiguous than the result we did come to. Seems to me, having come to consensus on "stop using SLs", we're taking quite reasonable (and independent) next steps: * Are there specific requirements not met by global addresses? * If so, what are those requirements? * How do we meet those requirements? - Ralph At 01:42 PM 8/25/2003 -0400, Keith Moore wrote: > > In case there was any doubt that the WG has no clue what the vote > > meant, > >The vote meant we're going to stop using SLs, IMHO because it became >clear that whatever problems SLs were supposed to solve, they weren't >worth the cost. > >We haven't voted on what solutions we were going to recommend for the >problems that people claimed (sometiemes erroneously) that SL addressed. >We haven't even agreed on what those problems are, or whether they all >really exist. > >Keith >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 02:47:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R9lbU3003894; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7R9lbEm003893; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7R9lYU3003886 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7R9idUu020950 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsnt.future.futsoft.com ([203.197.140.35]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7R9iLF8026325 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kailash1.future.futsoft.com (unverified [203.197.140.36]) by fsnt.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.6) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:04:50 +0530 Received: from kamarajp (kamarajp.future.futsoft.com [10.6.4.103]) by kailash1.future.futsoft.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h7R9Tql14232 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:59:52 +0530 Reply-To: From: "Kamaraj P" To: Subject: IPv6 LinkLocal Address and PrefixLen Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:04:41 +0530 Message-ID: <001f01c36c7e$71ac4420$6704060a@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Since Link local address is used only for directly networks, the end system should be able to interact without using the prefix len. from my understanding, we don't need prefix len for Link Local Address. pl clarify... Thanks in Advance Regards Kamaraj *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 04:21:55 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBLtU3005023; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RBLtLt005022; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBLpU3005015 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RBItUu017825 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RBInOX001829 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:18:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFD57F4C; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:18:46 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:18:38 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <002001c36c8c$f7426250$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RBLqU3005016 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Tony Hain wrote: > Mobile IP, and the multi6 DHT work are attempts to mitigate it through > slight of hand at the IP layer, while SCTP attempts to mask the topology > reality in the transport layer. (These are probably not the only examples, > but they are the ones that come to mind this morning.) Yet none of these > really do the job in all cases. I totally agree with your current insight that we need to seperate the routing from the host identifier. IMHO every host should have one globally unique ID and could have multiple transports, even if those are IPv4, IPv6, IPX or whatever based and going over multiple links or not. Though we should limit to IP based protocols to not make it too complicated. Such a mechanism could solve problems for: "site-locals" constructions, multihoming, mobile-ip without hindering the size of the routing table as people could continue to use current routing, thus TLA based and fully aggregated to the TLA level in the GRT. I've been looking into this since the very heated debate about site-locals. As imho there might be a way to solve that in the same problem too. Though I am still conducting research on that topic. As far as it stands I think that HIP is going the best way there is. LIN6 is flawed as it won't scale and can't be deployed easily. Next to those I got my own odd idea and I will probably work it out and implement it as a proof of concept. Though timing on when and how may be completely unknown. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0yTjimqKFIzPnwjEQJ4bgCcCoFKvXdeIWGUCyBb7RG8OVudWzUAn2LE /vVwNICKx7S74eza85dhxItX =BvT1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 04:54:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBsGU3005540; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RBsGGS005539; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBsCU3005532 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RBpGUu026837 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RBpAFi008623 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7RBoxJ4030484; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:51:00 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7RBp6EC280598; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:51:06 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA54504; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:50:48 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4C9B10.2C425F14@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:50:40 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alain Durand CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt References: <200308261917.PAA26615@ietf.org> <3F4BCCD6.4080903@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain, Thanks. It's clear that the wording in this draft has to be tuned to intercept the WG's consensus, when there is a clear consensus. I think the present wording is what the authors thought they heard in Vienna. Obviously, the next version needs to be tuned to where the discussion has gone since then. But let's not wordsmith until there is some clarity in the WG. As for the "replacement" sentence, I can agree that it is not yet a WG consensus, although it is certainly the view of a substantial number of people. Again, this can certainly be tuned. What *really* matters is whether people are happy with section 4, the actual deprecation text. That is the standards action proposed by the draft. Brian Alain Durand wrote: > > I was first happy to see this document coming. However, I'm a bit > disappointed. > The section on the ambiguity of SL is good, still I'm not sure those > are the only problems with SL... > But, what is more worrisome is the notion that the ipng wg > has to find a replacement for SL: > > "In its meeting in March 2003, the group reached a measure of agreement > that these > issues were serious enough to warrant a replacement of site local > addresses in their original form" > > From the current discussion, this is not at all clear that this is waht > we have to do. > As Margaret articulated very clearly: > > > There are a number of situations (disconnected sites, > > intermittently connected sites, etc.) where provider-allocated > > addressing is not a good method for address assignment. > > > > We need to figure out how these networks should be addressed. > > Our solution(s) may (or may not) require various properties of > > "local addressing": a provider-independent address prefix, > > addresses that are defined to have limited routability, > > addresses with special autoconfiguration properties, etc. > > > > Margaret > > Also worrisome is the implicit endorsement of the Hain/Templin and > Hinden/Haberman drafts as 'the' replacement solution: > > "Obviously, site locals also have some benefits, without > which they would have been removed from the specification long ago. > The perceived benefits of site local are that they are simple, > stable, and private [Hain/Templin]. However, it appears that these > benefits can be also obtained with an alternative architecture, for > example [Hinden/Haberman], in which addresses are not ambiguous and > do not have a simple explicit scope." > > Hinting that there is work currently underway to provide solutions > where SL was useful and PA does not work is ok. > Taking side in the current raging debate over those two drafts in not ok. > > - Alain. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 04:56:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBuFU3005579; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RBuFo1005578; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RBuCU3005571 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RBrGV7019743 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RBr5OX013206 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:53:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7RBqhJ4040470; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:52:48 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7RBqnC7046526; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:52:49 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA54942; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:52:41 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4C9B82.BD7BB272@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:52:34 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Templin CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, huitema@microsoft.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt References: <200308261917.PAA26615@ietf.org> <3F4BC40B.3050706@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred, what an embarassing pair of typos you have discovered. Thanks! Brian Fred Templin wrote: > > Brian and Christian, > > Very good draft, but in the first sentence of section 4 please > s/link-local/site-local. > > I believe the same comment applies also to the first sentence > of section 5, but please check my thinking on that one. > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > > Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > >This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : Deprecating Site Local Addresses > > Author(s) : C. Huitema, B. Carpenter > > Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt > > Pages : 8 > > Date : 2003-8-26 > > > >This document describes the issues surrounding the use of IPv6 site- > >local unicast addresses in their original form, and formally > >deprecates them. This deprecation does not prevent their continued > >use until a replacement has been standardized and implemented. > > > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt > > > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to > >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username > >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > > "get draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". > > > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > >Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > >In the body type: > > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt". > > > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > >Internet-Draft. > > > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 05:49:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RCngU3006550; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RCnfAw006549; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RCncU3006542 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RCkgUu012269 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RCkaOX020164 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7RCXEj9015882 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:33:16 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Subject: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:19:08 +0530 Message-ID: <007901c36c99$9e4a2040$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RCncU3006543 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I was always under the assumption that the prefix is fe80::/64, and not fe80::/10. However, the latest and the best version of the Addressing Architecture [RFC 3513] states the prefix as fe80::/10. Does it mean that fe81::/16 can also be used as a link local prefix (note : section 2.5.6 in RFC 3513 says that the next 54 bits after the prefix should be zero)? A grep for fe80 in my rfc repository yields (note: the fe80::/64, and fe80::/10) ---- rfc2464.txt:179: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2467.txt:252: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2470.txt:299: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2491.txt:1259: token, as defined above, to the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2497.txt:135: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2529.txt:184: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2529.txt:296: cases with the prefix FE80::/64. Note that the prefix- rfc2546.txt:98: The link-local prefix (FE80::/10) MUST NOT be advertised rfc2590.txt:480: above, to the prefix FE80::/64 [AARCH]. rfc2740.txt:1751: Link-local Interface Address = fe80:0001::RT3 rfc2772.txt:156: This link-local prefix (FE80::/10) MUST NOT be advertised through rfc2893.txt:966: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc3146.txt:152: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc3484.txt:1034: fe80::/10 33 1 rfc3513.txt:327: Link-local unicast 1111111010 FE80::/10 ---- Am I missing something? Thanks, CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 07:30:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7REUTU3008706; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7REUSeZ008704; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7REULU3008684 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RERPUu013493 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RERLmZ020526 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:27:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01682; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308271427.KAA01682@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:15 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses Author(s) : R. Hinden Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2003-8-27 This document defines an unicast address format that is globally unique and is intended for local communications, usually inside of a site. They are not expected to be routable on the global Internet given current routing technology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-27103609.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-27103609.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 08:00:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RF0hU3009013; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RF0h8v009012; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RF0dU3009005 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7REvhUu023534 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [198.24.6.3]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7REvcvG019784 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:57:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se (eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.133.51]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7REvQAP025571; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:57:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: by eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0CA@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se> From: "Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC)" To: "'Chirayu Patel'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:57:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Chirayu, No. You cannot use fe81::/16 as a link local address. Even though the RFC states that the prefix is fe80::/10 it really should be fe80::/64. Section 2.5.6 of RFC3513 explicitly states that the 54 bits following 1111111010 should be set to 0 and thus the only allowable prefix is fe80::/64. Regards Suresh -----Original Message----- From: Chirayu Patel [mailto:chirayu@chirayu.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:49 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? I was always under the assumption that the prefix is fe80::/64, and not fe80::/10. However, the latest and the best version of the Addressing Architecture [RFC 3513] states the prefix as fe80::/10. Does it mean that fe81::/16 can also be used as a link local prefix (note : section 2.5.6 in RFC 3513 says that the next 54 bits after the prefix should be zero)? A grep for fe80 in my rfc repository yields (note: the fe80::/64, and fe80::/10) ---- rfc2464.txt:179: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2467.txt:252: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2470.txt:299: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2491.txt:1259: token, as defined above, to the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2497.txt:135: prefix FE80::/64. rfc2529.txt:184: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc2529.txt:296: cases with the prefix FE80::/64. Note that the prefix- rfc2546.txt:98: The link-local prefix (FE80::/10) MUST NOT be advertised rfc2590.txt:480: above, to the prefix FE80::/64 [AARCH]. rfc2740.txt:1751: Link-local Interface Address = fe80:0001::RT3 rfc2772.txt:156: This link-local prefix (FE80::/10) MUST NOT be advertised through rfc2893.txt:966: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc3146.txt:152: the prefix FE80::/64. rfc3484.txt:1034: fe80::/10 33 1 rfc3513.txt:327: Link-local unicast 1111111010 FE80::/10 ---- Am I missing something? Thanks, CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 08:20:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RFKAU3009460; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RFKAj1009459; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RFK6U3009452 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RFHAV7025600 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RFH4NM000578 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:17:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 3E547206608 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19s1Q7-0005vi-BC for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:37:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19s1Gc-0005VE-HH for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:22 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01682; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308271427.KAA01682@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+62965_19433382562710_16806325109" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --MIMEStream=_0+62965_19433382562710_16806325109 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses Author(s) : R. Hinden Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2003-8-27 This document defines an unicast address format that is globally unique and is intended for local communications, usually inside of a site. They are not expected to be routable on the global Internet given current routing technology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt". 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This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses Author(s) : R. Hinden, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2003-8-27 This document defines an unicast address format that is globally unique and is intended for local communications, usually inside of a site. They are not expected to be routable on the global Internet given current routing technology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt". 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Message-ID: <20030827171925.B23423@edinburgh.cisco.com> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0CA@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0CA@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se>; from suresh.h.krishnan@ericsson.com on Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 09:57:23AM -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 09:57:23AM -0500, Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC) wrote: > Hi Chirayu, > No. You cannot use fe81::/16 as a link local address Of course you can. > Even though the RFC states that the prefix is fe80::/10 it really should be fe80::/64. Section 2.5.6 of RFC3513 explicitly states that the 54 bits following 1111111010 should be set to 0 and thus the only allowable prefix is fe80::/64. The contents of the 54 bits are only a should, as such one can use whatever one wants in there. Nothing breaks (wrt normal LL address usage) if those 54 bits have non zero values. Certainly a given platform shouldn't object to finding non zero values in a LL packet it receives (e.g. say a src address of fe80:1910::10). DF -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 09:23:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGNRU3010155; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RGNR5A010154; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGNOU3010147 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RGKSUu028288 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RGKMEJ021443 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D857F4C; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:20:19 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Iljitsch van Beijnum'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:20:10 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <00c601c36cb7$16e61be0$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljitsch@muada.com] wrote: > On woensdag, aug 27, 2003, at 13:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Jeroen Massar > wrote: > > > I totally agree with your current insight that we need to seperate > > the routing from the host identifier. IMHO every host should have > > one globally unique ID and could have multiple transports, even if > > those are IPv4, IPv6, IPX or whatever based and going over multiple > > links or not. Though we should limit to IP based protocols to not > > make it too complicated. Such a mechanism could solve problems for: > > "site-locals" constructions, multihoming, mobile-ip without hindering > > the size of the routing table as people could continue to use current > > routing, thus TLA based and fully aggregated to the TLA level in the > > GRT. > > The multi6 wg has been working on locator/identifier separation as a > way to solve the multihoming in IPv6 problem for a while now. And ever since they haven't progressed much unfortunatly :( > The problems we're facing (apart from the fact that there are > many ways to skin this particular cat and everyone has a different > preference) is that additional mechanisms are needed to get the extra > information across, and there is a price to be paid in one or more of: > additional round trips, more dependence on the DNS or something similar > to DNS, Indeed, one will always have this problem, my current idea relies on DNS, but if a program currently tries to contact another host it will usually already do a forward resolve and some apps (ssh for instance) also like to do a reverse resolve already. So these shouldn't be much of a problem. In the idea I have I have also added the possibility to limit these lookups until a failure occurs. > additional per-packet overhead, Not required for my idea. > loss of backward compatibility, I covered that in my idea, by simply adding functionality and not replacing it in a manner which could cause unexpected effects on the installed base. The installed base won't have the benefit > increased complexity. Not overcomable, but it should not be noticeble much in the idea I have. It's also more of a Proof of concept for me to see if I can get such a mechanism to work and to proof that such mechanisms are viable. Query me at RIPE next week if you want to hear more about it. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0zaOimqKFIzPnwjEQL+ZQCeIR0X0MEUnLsow6IGwKfFLsYTstEAn2SQ zMvifMn7z9A12oPp82cjXmCF =LdLQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 09:32:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGWkU3010574; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RGWkdT010573; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGWgU3010563 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RGTkUu002459 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RGTeWc010584 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:29:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3347) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:29:44 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: , Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:28:27 -0700 Message-ID: <052701c36cb8$3e9c2a70$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RGWhU3010564 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > A very quick question about your idea. Does this layer have a > protocol / interface to other elements on the network? Or are > you proposing something more like an abstract API? Simple question, complex answer ... It really depends on where you are looking at it from, and how the name space discussion gets resolved. As I was writing that, it occurred to me that from the app perspective what you want is to provide most of the characteristics of the transport API, making it somewhat transparent but the layer is really a manager substituting application name space identifiers for topology references, etc. At the same time there may need to be some protocol between the layer peers and/or infrastructure services to establish identities, along the lines of HIP/DHT/enhanced DNS/etc. As I see it, the hard work is getting this part done well. The thought was that the protocol parts of TCP/UDP/SCTP/... do what they do as directed from above, and do that efficiently. In the abstract, there is no reason that the entity above them can't deal with changing connection state, or topology attachment points. In the current environment though, we have apps parked in that spot, and we agree that dealing with changes is too much complexity to ask of apps in general. Historically, since we have apps parked in that spot, there has been an insistence that all of the topology complexity get resolved in the lower layers. Pushing complexity into the lower layers makes them less efficient, and will unnecessarily break many of the operational assumptions that exist. Providing an optional stabilization layer above transport allows endpoints to come and go at different points in the topology, while the application remains oblivious to the changes. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 09:43:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGhYU3011071; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RGhYmo011070; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGhUU3011055 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RGeYUu007880 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RGeSWc015866 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:40:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3929) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:40:34 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Jeroen Massar'" , Cc: Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:39:16 -0700 Message-ID: <052f01c36cb9$c1dea790$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <002001c36c8c$f7426250$210d640a@unfix.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RGhUU3011057 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jeroen Massar wrote: > ... As far as it stands I think that HIP > is going the best way there is. LIN6 is flawed as it won't > scale and can't be deployed easily. Next to those I got my > own odd idea and I will probably work it out and implement it > as a proof of concept. Though timing on when and how may be > completely unknown. What I was trying to point out is that HIP/etc. is only part of the solution. What an identity protocol needs is a point in the stack which is being identified. We can try to stuff it into each of the transport protocols, but we will have to do that over for each, and there would need to be complex api options if apps wanted to avoid the identity / topology mapping. It will be much simpler to leave the existing api path for the apps that want that service, and provide a layer above transport to manage the mappings. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 09:53:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGr1U3011428; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RGr0wW011427; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RGqvU3011417 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RGo0Uu011943 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RGnsWc019973 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4279) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:50:00 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Iljitsch van Beijnum'" , "'Jeroen Massar'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:48:42 -0700 Message-ID: <053001c36cbb$13208b90$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RGqvU3011418 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > The multi6 wg has been working on locator/identifier separation as a > way to solve the multihoming in IPv6 problem for a while now. > > The problems we're facing (apart from the fact that there are > many ways > to skin this particular cat and everyone has a different > preference) is > that additional mechanisms are needed to get the extra information > across, and there is a price to be paid in one or more of: additional > round trips, more dependence on the DNS or something similar to DNS, > additional per-packet overhead, loss of backward compatibility, > increased complexity. > At least the backward compatibility issue is primarily due to trying to force a lower layer to mask the topological realities. There may be some need for additional round trips, or enhanced mapping infrastructure, but if that only applied to apps using a new stabilization layer, there wouldn't be as much complaint because those would see a clear benefit. In any case I don't think adding a layer will be a trivial task, but from here it looks like the least the path of least resistance. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 10:19:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHJ9U3012046; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RHJ9Me012045; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHJ6U3012038 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RHGAUu023681 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RHG4EJ009856 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF2D7F4C; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:16:02 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Tony Hain'" , Cc: Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:15:53 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <00e301c36cbe$df6d3c90$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <052f01c36cb9$c1dea790$63124104@eagleswings> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Tony Hain [mailto:alh-ietf@tndh.net] wrote: [?Does this need to keep going to both ietf@ietf.org & ipng@sunroof?] > Jeroen Massar wrote: > > ... As far as it stands I think that HIP > > is going the best way there is. LIN6 is flawed as it won't > > scale and can't be deployed easily. Next to those I got my > > own odd idea and I will probably work it out and implement it > > as a proof of concept. Though timing on when and how may be > > completely unknown. > > What I was trying to point out is that HIP/etc. is only part of the > solution. What an identity protocol needs is a point in the > stack which is being identified. We can try to stuff it into each > of the transport protocols, but we will have to do that over for > each, and there would need to be complex api options if apps > wanted to avoid the identity / topology mapping. It will be > much simpler to leave the existing api path for the apps > that want that service, and provide a layer above transport > to manage the mappings. My current idea puts it at the resolver level. The application gets the 128bits identifier, which actuall is a IPv6 address, either given out from a special registry or simply from an /48 that is already assigned to you. This address can be used for both routing and identification purposes and can easily be assigned to hosts by using RA. The stack/API then maintains a list of routing IP's that are associated by that "IdentifierIP" and then replaces it before it enters the network with the routing IP that is to be used for actually routing the packet. On initial communication there could be an extra header sent along which says "this packet originates from this Identifier IP" along with a signature, verifyable through eg DNS to check it is really it. HIP is much further there though. This way apps don't need to know about it, they only need to know about IPv6. One could also pass this along to IPv4 except then it needs an extra magic packet for the IDIP. See HIP again. And I am thinking about using the above for solving a little problem for dynamic hosts in the SixXS project. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0znSSmqKFIzPnwjEQJiqACfem9Xk2LFRgFNM/wb67MXSmO4UEUAoJla C7Xsb0R5XDzB2qC900ki1SUx =I6ut -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 10:24:43 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHOhU3012125; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RHOgDa012124; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHOcU3012117 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RHLgV7020726 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RHLaWc004124 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D581413B; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11116-02; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00D714138; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:21:35 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: "Tony Hain" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, john.loughney@nokia.com, robert@digi-data.com, ietf@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Solving the right problems ... Message-Id: <20030827132135.385f0c2f.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <052701c36cb8$3e9c2a70$63124104@eagleswings> References: <052701c36cb8$3e9c2a70$63124104@eagleswings> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Historically, since we have apps parked in that spot, there has been > an insistence that all of the topology complexity get resolved in the > lower layers. uh, no. the design is for a clean separation of function between the layers that know about network topology and the hosts, which aren't supposed to need to know about such things. that separation of function is still highly desirable. what has changed is that we're now expecting a layer 3 that was designed for relatively stable networks of wired hosts to suddenly accomodate mobile and nomadic hosts and networks, without significant change. you can't solve the right problems without first recognizing what they are. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 10:27:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHR7U3012234; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RHR6BL012233; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHR3U3012223 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RHO7Uu027089 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [198.24.6.3]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RHO1Uk029908 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se (eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.133.51]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RHNrAP010540; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: by eamrcnt750.exu.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:23:33 -0500 Message-ID: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0CB@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se> From: "Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC)" To: "'Derek Fawcus'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:23:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Derek, > The contents of the 54 bits are only a should, as such one can use whatever > one wants in there. Where did you get/see the SHOULD? Please point me to the right location in RFC3513 which says this, because I can't find anything like that. All I see in an unambiguous/unconditional ascii art picture in section 2.5.6 with 0s in these 54 bits. Regards Suresh -----Original Message----- From: Derek Fawcus [mailto:dfawcus@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:19 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 09:57:23AM -0500, Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC) wrote: > Hi Chirayu, > No. You cannot use fe81::/16 as a link local address Of course you can. > Even though the RFC states that the prefix is fe80::/10 it really should be fe80::/64. Section 2.5.6 of RFC3513 explicitly states that the 54 bits following 1111111010 should be set to 0 and thus the only allowable prefix is fe80::/64. The contents of the 54 bits are only a should, as such one can use whatever one wants in there. Nothing breaks (wrt normal LL address usage) if those 54 bits have non zero values. Certainly a given platform shouldn't object to finding non zero values in a LL packet it receives (e.g. say a src address of fe80:1910::10). DF -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 10:46:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHkjU3013037; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RHkjQG013036; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RHkfU3013021 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RHheV7001550 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RHhXNM004055 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:43:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7RHgiD07248; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:44 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308271742> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd5mufhe; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:42:43 PDT Message-ID: <3F4CEFA5.2010202@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:51:33 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: jfcm , ietf@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Solving the right problems ... References: <155A29C3-D8B3-11D7-83FB-00039388672E@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > The hard part is coming up with a way to do the host/location mapping > in a way that is simple, fast, cheap, secure, flexible and reliable. Wouldn't we all start deploying, e.g., HIP tomorrow if we had a solution for this? And, how might that solution be any different than MIP HoA/CoA binding management? Again, I'm looking forward to seeing any proposals that may be forthcoming. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 11:17:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIHqU3013830; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RIHq91013829; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIHmU3013822 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RIEqUu021537 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RIElNM018613 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:14:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RIEkiZ002065 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:19 -0700 Received: from [17.202.43.251] (graejo5.apple.com [17.202.43.251]) by scv3.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RIEQ0F017870; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20030827171925.B23423@edinburgh.cisco.com> References: <7B2A7784F4B7F0409947481F3F3FEF830837B0CA@eammlex037.lmc.ericsson.se> <20030827171925.B23423@edinburgh.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v589) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5AEABE74-D8BA-11D7-8972-000A959D832C@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Joshua Graessley Subject: Re: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:53 -0700 To: Derek Fawcus X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.589) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Aug 27, 2003, at 9:19 AM, Derek Fawcus wrote: > On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 09:57:23AM -0500, Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC) > wrote: >> Hi Chirayu, >> No. You cannot use fe81::/16 as a link local address > > Of course you can. > >> Even though the RFC states that the prefix is fe80::/10 it really >> should be fe80::/64. Section 2.5.6 of RFC3513 explicitly states that >> the 54 bits following 1111111010 should be set to 0 and thus the only >> allowable prefix is fe80::/64. > > The contents of the 54 bits are only a should, as such one can use > whatever > one wants in there. > > Nothing breaks (wrt normal LL address usage) if those 54 bits have non > zero > values. Actually, you'll run in to some issues with any IPv6 stack based on Kame's implementation. Kame makes use of some of those bits to embed the scope id in some places while packets are handled in the kernel and in a few cases this may be used between the kernel/userspace boundary. Arguably, it's not the right thing for the stack to do, but it is done. -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 11:42:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIgdU3014358; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RIgdli014357; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIgaU3014350 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RIdeUu004191 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RIdXEJ020875 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7RIeabO025898; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:40:37 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7RIeQ9w025897; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:40:26 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Solving the right problems ... From: Mika Liljeberg To: Keith Moore Cc: Tony Hain , john.loughney@nokia.com, robert@digi-data.com, ietf@ietf.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20030827132135.385f0c2f.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <052701c36cb8$3e9c2a70$63124104@eagleswings> <20030827132135.385f0c2f.moore@cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1062009626.9714.273.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:40:26 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2003-08-27 at 20:21, Keith Moore wrote: > what has changed is that we're now expecting a layer 3 that was designed > for relatively stable networks of wired hosts to suddenly accomodate > mobile and nomadic hosts and networks, without significant change. TCP/IP was designed for such networks. What has changed is that we no longer have provider indepdendent addressing. Which means routing protocols can no longer do the job. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 11:54:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIsUU3014667; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RIsULs014666; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RIsRU3014659 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RIpVUu009729 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RIpPUk009992 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [3ffe:8114:2000:240:200:39ff:fe77:1f3f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489F27F4C; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:51:23 +0200 (CEST) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Mika Liljeberg'" Cc: , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:51:14 +0200 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <00f401c36ccc$314c7b90$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <1062009626.9714.273.camel@hades> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RIsRU3014660 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mika Liljeberg wrote: > On Wed, 2003-08-27 at 20:21, Keith Moore wrote: > > what has changed is that we're now expecting a layer 3 that was designed > > for relatively stable networks of wired hosts to suddenly accomodate > > mobile and nomadic hosts and networks, without significant change. > > TCP/IP was designed for such networks. What has changed is that we no > longer have provider indepdendent addressing. Which means routing > protocols can no longer do the job. Routing protocols can keep doing a perfect job as they are. An ISP has a TLA in IPv6 and it provides routability from and to the address space in this TLA. That is the routing part: sending a packet from A to B. Just like your postal address. The Identifier part goes on top of that making the packet have a signature, saying "this packet is from me". Then there is a third part in the process which allows a single identity to have multiple Routing IP's: postal addresses. Just like one can send you a postal packet to your office and to your work address, both with your name on it which will make sure that it arrives at you. Thus we don't need PI, which is a stupid pain on the routing tables. We need Identifiers. Greets, Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Unfix PGP for Outlook Alpha 13 Int. Comment: Jeroen Massar / jeroen@unfix.org / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iQA/AwUBP0z9oimqKFIzPnwjEQIk7wCfT2Z79cB+Luag3N+E+fzdHleyxLoAoLok 8Cy/EPr5O7yA4RCCJGAsmgfq =Hjyf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 12:09:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RJ9AU3014989; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RJ9AqV014988; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RJ97U3014981 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RJ6BUu017539 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RJ63EJ013568 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:4380) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:05:51 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Jeroen Massar'" , Cc: Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:04:34 -0700 Message-ID: <055001c36cce$0dae5ee0$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <00e301c36cbe$df6d3c90$210d640a@unfix.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7RJ97U3014982 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Jeroen Massar wrote: > [?Does this need to keep going to both ietf@ietf.org & ipng@sunroof?] > Not as far as I am concerned. If we take the suggested path, the work is clearly outside the IPv6 WG, and anyone on the IPv6 list that cares to follow the discussion is now aware of it. I will be dropping ipng from any further responses to this thread. > My current idea puts it at the resolver level. The > application gets the 128bits identifier, which actuall is a > IPv6 address, either given out from a special registry or > simply from an /48 that is already assigned to you. This > address can be used for both routing and identification > purposes and can easily be assigned to hosts by using RA. > > The stack/API then maintains a list of routing IP's that > are associated by that "IdentifierIP" and then replaces it > before it enters the network with the routing IP that is to > be used for actually routing the packet. On initial > communication there could be an extra header sent along which > says "this packet originates from this Identifier IP" along > with a signature, verifyable through eg DNS to check it is > really it. HIP is much further there though. The only issue is the slight of hand in 'The stack/API then maintains a list of routing IP's ...'. It would appear your assumption is that L4 or below would perform the substitution magic, and have a protocol to communicate to the peer what the magic is. I am saying that this should simply be a formal layer between L4 & L7. This avoids messing with existing lower layers which would create compatibility issues both for the peer node, as well as application expectations about what the lower layers do. > > This way apps don't need to know about it, they only need > to know about IPv6. One could also pass this along to IPv4 > except then it needs an extra magic packet for the IDIP. See > HIP again. And I am thinking about using the above for > solving a little problem for dynamic hosts in the SixXS project. So you prove my original point, 'there is a sacred invariant, and we must avoid messing with the app / transport interface at all costs'. Everything you described would fit cleanly in an entity that sat between L4 & L7. In fact from an architectural perspective, the "IdentifierIP" you describe would be the name of the point in the stack shared by all interfaces & transports. It really doesn't matter if that name is variable length ascii, or fixed length binary, but I am sure many will share their favorite opinion. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 13:03:49 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RK3mU3015794; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RK3mRZ015793; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RK3jU3015786 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RK0nV7010068 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RK0eNM013073 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:00:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26634; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:00:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308272000.QAA26634@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Jeroen Massar" wrote: |The stack/API then maintains a list of routing IP's that |are associated by that "IdentifierIP" and then replaces it |before it enters the network with the routing IP that is |to be used for actually routing the packet. I've made this proposal several times over the past few years. It was generally met with violent objections that we have no idea (and--it seems-- can have no idea) whether the mapping infrastructure is even a design target or a research project. Most recently I believe the objection was that hosts have no business computing routes (and that is what you are talking about-- your mapping is just another way of looking at source-based routing) since they do not have full knowledge of the entire network topology. Of course, I consider the latter a huge advantage because distributed routing scales so well: the resources available (including both CPU power and aggregate bandwidth) increase with the increasing number of nodes which in turn grows with the number of identifiers. The last time I tried to point out the desirability of such a scalable solution, I believe it was dismissed with something along the lines of, ``the application sees zero bandwidth while its host is trying to compute a route to the destination''. In any case, I wish you better luck with the approach than I've had. But I don't think you will get very far for the simple reason that a working identifier scheme destroys the economic value of stable addresses and would allow customers to switch ISPs too easily. "Tony Hain" wrote: |So you prove my original point, 'there is a sacred invariant, and we must |avoid messing with the app / transport interface at all costs'. As a practical matter, this is probably true. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 14:12:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLCVU3017073; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RLCVuB017072; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLCSU3017065 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RL9WUu012314 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-021-158.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.21.158]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RL9QEJ016453 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1:3711) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.16 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:09:28 -0700 From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Dan Lanciani'" , Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:08:09 -0700 Message-ID: <055e01c36cdf$539b0140$63124104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <200308272000.QAA26634@ss10.danlan.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Dan Lanciani wrote: > |So you prove my original point, 'there is a sacred invariant, and we > |must avoid messing with the app / transport interface at all costs'. > > As a practical matter, this is probably true. Are you saying that for existing apps we can't change (in which case I agree), or that the IETF can't change (in which case I might still agree, but it has noting to do with practicality). Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 14:34:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLYpU3017457; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RLYpv6017456; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLYmU3017449 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RLVqUu022350 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.133]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RLVkUk003603 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7RLVks5407846 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:31:46 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7RLVixo342714 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31:45 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7RLTfM08869 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:29:51 -0400 Message-Id: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:29:40 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The WG has asked this be published as an Informational document. Here are my review comments. I assume some discussion and a revised ID will be needed before I forward the document to the IESG as a whole. Note: some of these points may best be responded to by starting a separate thread, so folk can easily follow individual topics of interest. Thomas substantative (more or less...): General comment. There are places in the document where it is not immediately clear whether something is required to be implemented or not. Sometimes the wording is just "support", and in the context of the wording, this may depend on deployment considerations. I would except that the purpose of this document is to make it clear what needs to implemented. I mention some specific cases below, but may not have caught them all... It might be good to scan the document for "support" and check that the intent is clear. > Nodes MUST always be able to receive fragment headers. However, if it > does not implement path MTU discovery it may not need to send > fragment headers. However, nodes that do not implement transmission > of fragment headers need to impose a limitation to the payload size > of layer 4 protocols. This would seem inconsistent with the following wording in RFC 2460: In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280. In that case, the IPv6 node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than 1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments. Note that this means the payload may have to be reduced to 1232 octets (1280 minus 40 for the IPv6 header and 8 for the Fragment header), and smaller still if additional extension headers are used. > Router Discovery is how hosts locate routers that reside on an > attached link. Router Discovery MUST be supported for > implementations. However, an implementation MAY support disabling > this function. Why the MAY above? If there are reasons to allow this, it would be good to give some examples of the WG's thinking for calling out such an exception. Also, this is a change to 2461 I assume? > Prefix Discovery is how hosts discover the set of address prefixes > that define which destinations are on-link for an attached link. > Prefix discovery MUST be supported for implementations. However, the > implementation MAY support the option of disabling this function. same comment with regards to MAY. And also, am I right to assume that disabling this function would need to be done on a per-interface basis (in which case the current text isn't explicit enough)? I.e, is this related to some 3G type deployment? > Duplicate Address Detection MUST be supported (RFC2462 section 5.4 > specifies DAD MUST take place on all unicast addresses). This reference to 2462 section 5.4 is a tad misleading. The relevant paragraph in 2462 says: > 5.4. Duplicate Address Detection > > Duplicate Address Detection is performed on unicast addresses prior > to assigning them to an interface whose DupAddrDetectTransmits > variable is greater than zero. Duplicate Address Detection MUST take > place on all unicast addresses, regardless of whether they are > obtained through stateful, stateless or manual configuration, with > the exception of the following cases: Note that one of the exception cases is stateless addr conf when configuring multiple addresses using the same IID. Is node-requirments trying to override this exception? If so, it should be explicit about it. Otherwise, I'm not sure why the above sentence is included in node-requirements. > 4.5.4 Default Address Selection for IPv6 - RFC3484 > > Default Address Selection for IPv6 [RFC-3484] SHOULD be supported, if > a node has more than one IPv6 address per interface or a node has > more that one IPv6 interface (physical or logical) configured. > > If supported, the rules specified in the document MUST be > implemented. A node needs to belong to one site, however there is no > requirement that a node be able to belong to more than one site. This is really weasle worded. Is 3484 mandatory to _implement_ or not? You can't make its implementation dependent on whether there are multiple addresses, since the number of addresses a node will have is not something an implementor will know, as it's an operational issue. > DNS, as described in [RFC-1034], [RFC-1035], [RFC-1886], [RFC-3152] > and [RFC-3363] MAY be supported. Not all nodes will need to resolve > names. Note that RFC 1886 is currently being updated [RFC-1886-BIS]. 1886-bis has been approved by the IESG I believe... Also, I suspect this section really needs to talk about resolvers and resolver behavior, rather than just say DNS. Most of the server issues do not apply to generic IPv6 nodes. But almost every node will have some sort of resolver... > 5.3.1 Managed Address Configuration IMO, it doesn't make sense to talk about "implementing DHC" without being more specific. I suspect that all of this section is about the client part of DHC, not the server. It would be good to make this clear. Ditto for 5.3.2. Stateless DHCPv6 [DHCPv6-SL], a subset of DHCPv6, can be used to obtain configuration information. A node that uses stateless DHCP must have obtained its IPv6 addresses through some other mechanism, typically stateless address autoconfiguration. Does this even need mentioning? I.e, what are the real implications for clients? Do they need to implement full blown dhc (the client part)? Or do they implement some subset? (Hmm... reading the related draft, clients implement a subset... And this document has a normative reference to the other ID, so either this document needs to be more explicit about what stateless DHCPv6 is, or will have to wait on the other document.) > 6.1 Transition Mechanisms > > IPv6 nodes SHOULD use native addressing instead of transition-based > addressing (according to the algorithms defined in RFC 3484). Is this a statement about what needs to be implemented? Or is this an operational statement? (This document seems to be mostly about the former, and this statement seems odd without more context...) > Routers do not need to support route optimization or home agent > functionality. > > Routers SHOULD support the generic mobile IP requirements. I think it would be better to replace the above with something like: Routers SHOULD support the router-specific extensions defined in Section 8.3 of MIPv6 And include a normative reference to the document. > 7.2 Securing Signaling between Mobile Nodes and Home Agents > > The security mechanisms described in [MIPv6-HASEC] MUST be supported > by nodes implementing mobile node or home agent functionality > specified in Mobile IP [MIPv6]. So would presumably the applicable parts of Section 8 of the mipv6 spec. Better to cite them explicitely. > Generic Packet Tunneling [RFC-2473] MUST be supported for nodes > implementing mobile node functionality or Home Agent functionality of > Mobile IP [MIPv6]. This may not need mentioning, as it may already be covered in Section 8 of the mipv6 spec. Actually, this entire section may warrant rethinking given the existance of Section 8 in the MIPv6 spec. Section 9 begins by saying: > 9. Router-Specific Functionality > > This section defines general host considerations for IPv6 nodes that > act as routers. Currently, this section does not discuss routin- > specific requirements. an then immediately says > 9.1.1 IPv6 Router Alert Option - RFC2711 > > The Router Alert Option [RFC-2711] MUST be supported by nodes that > perform packet forwarding at the IP layer (i.e. - the node is a > router). But this seems like a "forwarding-related" requirement. When do routers send router alerts? They need to process them when they are received, e.g., as part of MLD stuff. When else are they used? > 11. Security Considerations This section seems both too detailed and not detailed enough. Too detailed in that it talks about security issues related to some (arbitrary?) protocols like ICMPv6, but not detailed enough in that it is anywhere complete and doesn't mention many other protocols that could also be included if one were to include ICMPv6. My suggestion would be to up-level here and not talk about detailed security issues of individual protocols. If you want to do that, point to the security sections in other documents. But if you do this, you'll have a hard time deciding whether to mention every document or just some. Does _this_ document itself introduce or raise any security issues not covered elsewhere? That is the question this document should focus on. The answer may be mostly no. Finally, there are an awful lot of references to IDs in the normative section. That's a problem. See defn. of normative in draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-06.txt. Nits/editorial: > The goal of this document is to define the set of functionality > required for an IPv6 node; the functionality common to both hosts and > routers. Many IPv6 nodes will implement optional or additional Sentence with semi-colon doesn't parse. :-( > 3.1 Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks - RFC2464 > > Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks [RFC-2464] MUST > be supported for nodes supporting Ethernet interfaces. I don't quite like the way this (and subsequent) sentences is worded. We don't want to imply that nodes that support IPv4 over Ethernet must also support this... How about: Nodes supporting IPv6 over Ethernet interfaces MUST implement Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks [RFC-2464]. same applies to remaining LL sub-sections. > IPv6 over ATM Networks [RFC2492] MUST be supported for nodes > supporting ATM interfaces. Additionally, the specification states: what does "the specification" refer to? How about saying Additionally, RFC 2492 states: > option of disabling this function. The ability to understand specific > Router Advertisement optionss is dependent on supporting the s/optionss/options/ > specification where the RA is specified. s/the RA/the particular RA option/ > Redirect functionionality SHOULD be supported. If the node is a spelling > router, Redirect functionionality MUST be supported. > Path MTU Discovery [RFC-1981] MAY be supported. It is expected that > most implementations will indeed support this, although the possible > exception cases are sufficient that the used of "SHOULD" is not > justified. The rules in RFC 2460 MUST be followed for packet > fragmentation and reassembly. Same comment applies here as mentioned earlier. > Nodes that are routers MUST be able to generate link local addresses > as described in this specification. "this specification" is ambiguious. Do you mean 2460? > If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD > support MLDv1. If it is going to support Source-Specific Multicast, s/join any-source multicast/to join any-source multicast group addresses/ also: If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD support MLDv1. If it is going to support Source-Specific Multicast, it MUST support MLDv2 [MLDv2] and conform to the Source-Specific Multicast overview document [RFC3569]; refer to Source-Specific Multicast architecture document for details [SSMARCH]. Is worded oddly. If A, you SHOULD do MLDv1. If B, you MUST do MLDv2. Shouldn't the first SHOULD be a MUST as well? How can you not support MLDv1 if you are going to join multicast groups and not going to do MLDv2? > This specification MUST be supported if jumbograms are implemented > [RFC-2675]. One open issue is if this document needs to be updated, > as it refers to an obsoleted document. Drop last sentence? I suspect it's irrelevant, as the updated that is needed is cosmetic/editorial, not substantative. Right? > This document is currently being updated. s/this document/RFC2893/ > 7.3 Generic Packet Tunneling in IPv6 Specification - RFC2473 nit: indention is wrong on this heading. > 3DES-CBC does not suffer from the issues related to DES-CBC. 3DES-CBC > and ESP CBC-Mode Cipher Algorithms [RFC2451] MAY be supported. AES- > 128-CBC [ipsec-ciph-aes-cbc] MUST be supported, as it is expected to > be a widely available, secure algorithm that is required for > interoperability. It is not required by the current IPsec RFCs, > however. Perhaps add to last sentence, "but is expected to become required in the future" ??? act as routers. Currently, this section does not discuss routin- specific requirements. s/routin/routing/ > At least the following two MIBs SHOULD be supported MIBs SHOULD be > supported by nodes that support an SNMP agent. duplicate words. > 10.1.1 IP Forwarding Table MIB > > Support for this MIB does not imply that IPv4 or IPv4 specific > portions of this MIB be supported. Which MIB is this? (No reference provided...) > 10.1.2 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP) Ditto. > 12.1 Normative > > [DHCPv6-SL] R. Droms, "A Guide to Implementing Stateless DHCPv6 > Service", Work in Progress. For all the references, please include the ID name, so folk can actually figure out which ID it refers to. Also the RFC editor will want to know this too, so they can put in the right references, in case any are already RFCs. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 14:55:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLtXU3017863; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RLtXTl017862; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RLtTU3017854 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RLqXV7000024 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RLmOkH010120 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:48:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 85B3E91; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:48:23 +0900 (JST) To: narten@us.ibm.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:29:40 -0400" <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.6 (030716-1832/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20030827214823.85B3E91@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:48:23 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > 5.4. Duplicate Address Detection > > > > Duplicate Address Detection is performed on unicast addresses prior > > to assigning them to an interface whose DupAddrDetectTransmits > > variable is greater than zero. Duplicate Address Detection MUST take > > place on all unicast addresses, regardless of whether they are > > obtained through stateful, stateless or manual configuration, with > > the exception of the following cases: > > Note that one of the exception cases is stateless addr conf when > configuring multiple addresses using the same IID. Is node-requirments > trying to override this exception? If so, it should be explicit about > it. Otherwise, I'm not sure why the above sentence is included in > node-requirements. there was a big discussion in the recent IETF meeting (don't remember which one) and the consensus was to drop "you can omit DAD for addresses with same IID" part from the DAD, IIRC (need to check minutes). if my memory is corret, my guess is that the node requirement is more up-to-date on this issue. itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 15:08:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RM8fU3018205; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RM8fdW018204; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RM8bU3018197 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RM5fUu007853 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RM5ZEJ025329 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27431; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308272205.SAA27431@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Tony Hain" wrote: |Dan Lanciani wrote: |> |So you prove my original point, 'there is a sacred invariant, and we |> |must avoid messing with the app / transport interface at all costs'. |> |> As a practical matter, this is probably true. | |Are you saying that for existing apps we can't change (in which case I |agree), or that the IETF can't change (in which case I might still agree, |but it has noting to do with practicality). The IETF can change (in the sense of adding a new interface in parallel to the existing ones) but application authors will continue to use the old interfaces not only in new versions of existing applications but in completely new applications. End users will not benefit from the new interface unless they exert very close control over the applications they use. This might actually work well in an enterprise where most all the applications are in-house anyway, but in general end users aren't going to understand the distinction. There will be confusion over why some applications seem to work with a particular level of (in)stability while others do not. There will be much finger pointing. As a practical matter, end users will still be stuck paying for the level of address stability that makes their least-well-behaved (but vital) application happy. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 15:21:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RMLcU3018476; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RMLcTF018475; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RMLYU3018465 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RMIcUu013763 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RMErkH027913 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:14:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (dhcp2.potaroo.net [203.10.60.2]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7RMEMRc095097; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:14:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:14:09 +1000 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Geoff Huston Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Cc: bob.hinden@nokia.com, brian@innovationslab.net In-Reply-To: <20030827214823.85B3E91@coconut.itojun.org> References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I see that the local use address draft has been revised and published as a WG document. In section 3.2.2 of the draft, it notes that, in reference to Locally Assigned Global IDs that "the likelihood of conflict is small. " I had noted in draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt that the likelihood of conflict is given by the formula: P = 1 - ((n!) / ((n**d)(n-d)!)) where n = 2**40 and d is the number of random 'draws' from the pool. The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. It appears to me that the comment in this section of the unique local addr draft is misleading, and I'd like to request that this section of the draft be replaced with a more rigorous mathematical analysis of the probability of collision. Thanks, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 15:31:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RMVwU3018761; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RMVwB9018760; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RMVtU3018753 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RMSsUu018168 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RMSmNM018739 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7RMSln19726; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:47 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308272228> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpddT4eYp; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:45 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:26:59 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Current Results from Poll Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, Margaret Wasserman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 16:46:38 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNkcU3019756; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RNkbnq019755; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNkXU3019748 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNhbUu018259 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNhVNM016650 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:43:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030058F; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:43:29 +0900 (JST) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, dnsop@cafax.se X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: RFC2553 API: getnameinfo: ambiguous result due to malicious PTR setting From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:43:28 +0900 Message-Id: <20030827234329.030058F@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk getnameinfo(3) handles both numeric and FQDN notation of the address, which is very good. i'm happy about this API. however, i have certain worry so i'd mumble here. when (malicious) PTR record like below is configured, there's no way for the user of getnameinfo(3) to detect if (a) there was no PTR record and therefore getnameinfo is returneing a numeric notation, or (b) there was a malicious PTR record. 1.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR 10.1.1.1 char addr[NI_MAXHOST]; struct sockaddr *sa; /* AF_INET, 127.0.0.1 */ getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, 0) then "addr" will contain 10.1.1.1, which looks like a numeric IPv4 address. therefore programmers would think like (a) - there was no PTR record and "sa" contains 10.1.1.1. if we want to be proactive (to protect normal applications), we could reject such PTR responses. however, if we reject those, we will be hiding certain data on the DNS (i.e. DNS diagnostic tool written with getnameinfo(3) will not be able to access raw DNS data). one way to solve this issue is to use NI_NAMEREQD flag, which is cumbersome. char addr[NI_MAXHOST]; struct sockaddr *sa; /* AF_INET, 127.0.0.1 */ if (!getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, NI_NAMEREQD)) /* PTR record is there */ else getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, 0) /* it is numeric */ any solutions, comments, whatever, is welcome. itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 16:51:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNpCU3019832; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RNpCwN019831; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNp7U3019821 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNmBV7018481 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNm6Uk022839 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h7RNm51h026097 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-14.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.14]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h7RNm1St021648 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3F4D4330.BD111EAE@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:48:00 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Standardise a good local addressing solution as soon as responsibly possible. Some people seem to want to get rid of site locals. I want to achieve a local addressing solution that (as far as we can) removes the perceived faults. In practice, I think this is probably B, though might be C. What I can say is that it is not-A. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 16:55:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNtsU3020009; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RNtsb8020008; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNtpU3020001 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNqtUu021584 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNqnvG028032 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7RNqmb00830; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:52:48 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308272352> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdvgB6pW; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:52:46 PDT Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827164826.022111d8@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:50:49 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Vacation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk FYI, I will be on vacation starting tomorrow through September 5th. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 16:58:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNwKU3020130; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7RNwKFi020129; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7RNwGU3020122 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNtKV7021376 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ALPHA8.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha8.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.8]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNtENM020806 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost ([130.194.13.84]) by vaxh.its.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KZZO53TNP68WW46Y@vaxh.its.monash.edu.au> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 Received: from blammo.its.monash.edu.au (localhost.its.monash.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D45339C004; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by blammo.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC382DC002; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:17 +1000 From: Greg Daley Subject: Deprecation Poll Vote. To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-id: <3F4D40E9.8060303@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, I know I'm late, but I vote for B. Greg Daley Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August > are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation > or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You > can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan > to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >> From: Bob Hinden >> Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >> Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com >> >> [IPv6 working group chair hat on] >> >> I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >> site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working >> group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly >> relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to >> deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how >> to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this >> issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. >> >> We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >> , a specific alternative >> to site-local addresses draft >> (accepted as a working >> group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing >> why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal >> deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna >> IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >> normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. >> >> I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working >> group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their >> maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. >> Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an >> alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is >> available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth >> alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I >> think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >> reasonable alternative. >> >> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. >> I think the choices are: >> >> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an >> alternative solution available. This would mean that the working >> group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution >> documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was >> no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. >> >> B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >> solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at >> the same time and making them include normative references to each >> other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would >> result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on >> an alternative. >> >> C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >> standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not >> advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence >> that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over >> Site-Local addresses. >> >> Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >> publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. >> >> Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >> alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. >> I hope that many of you will respond. >> >> Thanks, >> Bob > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 18:13:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S1DiU3021673; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S1Diqj021672; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S1DeU3021665 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S1AiUu023980 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.130]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S1AdWc022812 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7S1ATUj289162; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:10:29 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7S1ASxo364436; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:10:28 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7S18Sq12221; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:08:34 -0400 Message-Id: <200308280108.h7S18Sq12221@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: Message from itojun@itojun.org of "Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:48:23 +0900." <20030827214823.85B3E91@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:08:27 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) writes: > there was a big discussion in the recent IETF meeting (don't remember > which one) and the consensus was to drop "you can omit DAD for > addresses with same IID" part from the DAD, IIRC (need to check > minutes). if my memory is corret, my guess is that the node > requirement is more up-to-date on this issue. I too seem to recall a discussion or two on this topic, even before vienna. But 1) should node-requirements be the document that updates this, or should addrconf be updated? 2) If the former, the words in the current document aren't explicit enough. Especially given the following wording in node-requirements: > This document tries to avoid discussion of protocol details, and > references RFCs for this purpose. In case of any conflicting > text, this document takes less precedence than the normative > RFCs, unless additional clarifying text is included in this > document. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 19:56:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S2uWU3022896; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S2uVmQ022895; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S2uSU3022888 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S2rWV7026145 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S2rOUk026049 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S2rM422050 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:22 +0300 Received: from esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.51]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:22 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe012.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:22 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:21 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Thread-Index: AcNtAa8jI1O9pOHoRlydIoEq4uelTAADYrGw From: To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 02:53:22.0208 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B187A00:01C36D0F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S2uSU3022889 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Thomas, > itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) writes: > > > there was a big discussion in the recent IETF meeting > (don't remember > > which one) and the consensus was to drop "you can omit DAD for > > addresses with same IID" part from the DAD, IIRC (need to check > > minutes). if my memory is corret, my guess is that the node > > requirement is more up-to-date on this issue. > > I too seem to recall a discussion or two on this topic, even before > vienna. But > > 1) should node-requirements be the document that updates this, or > should addrconf be updated? > > 2) If the former, the words in the current document aren't explicit > enough. Especially given the following wording in > node-requirements: > > > This document tries to avoid discussion of protocol details, and > > references RFCs for this purpose. In case of any conflicting > > text, this document takes less precedence than the normative > > RFCs, unless additional clarifying text is included in this > > document. My understanding was that we didn't want the Node Requirements document be the bucket where we toss all of the fixes needed to various RFCs, etc. I assume that if addrconf needs updating, it should be done there, however, I could put a note in the Node Req document. I'm not dogmatic, however, about this point - if people feel that Node Req is the right place, then feel free to suggest text. thanks, John -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 19:56:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S2ukU3022909; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S2uko5022908; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S2ueU3022899 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S2riUu027095 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S2rcvG015774 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:53:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7S2e1j9017831; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:40:03 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Derek Fawcus'" , "'Joshua Graessley'" Subject: RE: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:26:03 +0530 Message-ID: <00fc01c36d0f$ef597460$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <5AEABE74-D8BA-11D7-8972-000A959D832C@apple.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S2ueU3022900 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk If the next 54 bits are always expected to be zero then the prefix should be declared to fe80::/64, and RFC 3513 should be corrected. Do any of the old timers have a take on this one? Jim, Keith, Tony, Brian..... anyone? :-) CP > > On Aug 27, 2003, at 9:19 AM, Derek Fawcus wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 09:57:23AM -0500, Suresh Krishnan (QB/EMC) > > wrote: > >> Hi Chirayu, > >> No. You cannot use fe81::/16 as a link local address > > > > Of course you can. > > > >> Even though the RFC states that the prefix is fe80::/10 it really > >> should be fe80::/64. Section 2.5.6 of RFC3513 explicitly states that > >> the 54 bits following 1111111010 should be set to 0 and thus the only > >> allowable prefix is fe80::/64. > > > > The contents of the 54 bits are only a should, as such one can use > > whatever > > one wants in there. > > > > Nothing breaks (wrt normal LL address usage) if those 54 bits have non > > zero > > values. > > Actually, you'll run in to some issues with any IPv6 stack based on > Kame's implementation. Kame makes use of some of those bits to embed > the scope id in some places while packets are handled in the kernel and > in a few cases this may be used between the kernel/userspace boundary. > Arguably, it's not the right thing for the stack to do, but it is done. > > -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 21:36:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S4adU3024869; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S4acqY024868; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S4aZU3024861 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S4XdUu027061 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S4XXEJ029151 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7S4JijA018140; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:19:50 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Joshua Graessley'" , "'Derek Fawcus'" Subject: RE: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:05:47 +0530 Message-ID: <010001c36d1d$e467e880$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <5AEABE74-D8BA-11D7-8972-000A959D832C@apple.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > Nothing breaks (wrt normal LL address usage) if those 54 bits have non > > zero > > values. > > Actually, you'll run in to some issues with any IPv6 stack based on > Kame's implementation. Kame makes use of some of those bits to embed > the scope id in some places while packets are handled in the kernel and > in a few cases this may be used between the kernel/userspace boundary. > Arguably, it's not the right thing for the stack to do, but it is done. FYI, from what I can see, USAGI will work with fe80::/10. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 23:00:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S60oU3025809; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S60olW025808; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S60kU3025801 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S5voUu021931 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S5vhEJ011775 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7S5xFbO027758; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:15 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7S5xDSL027757; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:13 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll From: Mika Liljeberg To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1062050353.9714.275.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:13 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for B or C. MikaL On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 01:26, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 23:18:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6IHU3026125; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S6IH1w026124; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6IDU3026114 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S6FHUu027909 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S6FBWc026660 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S6F7416543 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:07 +0300 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:07 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:06 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:06 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll Thread-Index: AcNtKvynrBC7t0gOQf2eUJtzzi9D/gAAEoOg From: To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 06:15:06.0967 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA181E70:01C36D2B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S6IDU3026115 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, I prefer B. I think there is interest and possible need for an alternate solution and it seems reasonable to depreciate site-locals (which are already supported to some extent in some running code) after we have a replacement for them. I fear that if we do not do this, there may be motivation for people to start to deploy something which is targeted as a replacement for site-locals but has no IETF documentation behind it. thanks, John > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Aug 27 23:40:28 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6eSU3026649; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S6eSa6026648; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6eOU3026639 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S6bSV7006934 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsnt.future.futsoft.com ([203.197.140.35]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S6avEJ002580 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kailash1.future.futsoft.com (unverified [203.197.140.36]) by fsnt.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:10:42 +0530 Received: from kamarajp (kamarajp.future.futsoft.com [10.6.4.103]) by kailash1.future.futsoft.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h7S6WRl23819 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:02:27 +0530 Reply-To: From: "Kamaraj P" To: Subject: IPv6 Hop limit Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:07:18 +0530 Message-ID: <001c01c36d2e$d4b598e0$6704060a@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Whether I should process, If the IPv6 packet contains hop limit field is not equal to 255 and link Local as a destination address.(one of my link local Addr) Am I missing something ? Thanks Regards Kamaraj *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 00:43:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S7hTU3027517; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S7hTsS027516; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S7hPU3027509 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S7eSV7026810 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S7eMvG007996 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:40:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7S7Qej9018632; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:26:43 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: IPv6 Hop limit Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:12:42 +0530 Message-ID: <010101c36d37$fcd1e9b0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <001c01c36d2e$d4b598e0$6704060a@future.futsoft.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S7hQU3027510 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Whether I should process, If the IPv6 packet contains hop limit field is not > equal to 255 and link Local as a destination address.(one of my link local > Addr) Routers will anyways not forward messages to LL dst address, so you may assume that a message received with a LL dst address has been generated by a node on the same link. I have not come across any statement in the specs that mandates using a hop limit of 255 with LL dst address. CP -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 00:55:45 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S7tjU3027789; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S7tiDq027788; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S7tfU3027778 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S7qiV7000417 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S7qcEJ015645 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S7qaB23333 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:36 +0300 Received: from esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.45]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:36 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:35 +0300 Message-ID: <245DBCAEEC4F074CB77B3F984FF9834F019076AB@esebe005.ntc.nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll Thread-Index: AcNtKvyNNRBhnJOTRhGBVPBs/e8lzQADftsQ From: To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 07:52:36.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[587482E0:01C36D39] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S7tfU3027780 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Bob! My preference is B. C also is ok for me. Cheers, -Juha W.- On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 01:26, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 01:03:56 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S83uU3028076; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S83uOu028075; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S83pU3028068 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S80tUu029000 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com (p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com [195.101.245.15]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S80nNM006802 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:00:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from FTRDMEL1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:00:17 +0200 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:00:14 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll thread-index: AcNs62biHJUqI/AkSM6S4E+FHys43gATb/eg From: "BAUDOT Alain FTRD/DMI/CAE" To: "Bob Hinden" , Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 08:00:17.0239 (UTC) FILETIME=[6B4F3670:01C36D3A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S83qU3028069 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for B, that I guess enables to get both largest consensus and best alternate solution. Regards, Alain. > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Envoye : jeudi 28 aout 2003 00:27 > A : ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc : hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman > Objet : Current Results from Poll > > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started > early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please > do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being > on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to > respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We > plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 01:23:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8NCU3028661; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S8NBSd028659; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8N8U3028651 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S8KBV7008739 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bowl.fysh.org ([195.167.170.152]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S8K5NM014619 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zefram by bowl.fysh.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19sI0i-0002i3-00; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:20:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:20:04 +0100 To: itojun@iijlab.net Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, dnsop@cafax.se Subject: Re: RFC2553 API: getnameinfo: ambiguous result due to malicious PTR setting Message-ID: <20030828082004.GA6359@fysh.org> References: <20030827234329.030058F@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030827234329.030058F@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: Zefram Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk itojun@iijlab.net wrote: > if we want to be proactive (to protect normal applications), we could > reject such PTR responses. however, if we reject those, we will be > hiding certain data on the DNS (i.e. DNS diagnostic tool written with > getnameinfo(3) will not be able to access raw DNS data). getnameinfo(3) is not suitable for use in a DNS diagnostic tool anyway. get{addr,name}info(3) implement a name<=>address mapping which is defined in a way that in part uses DNS but has other elements also. (How many hosts do you know that still have an /etc/hosts file providing part of the mapping?) get{addr,name}info(3) should be consistent with each other, providing a consistent two-way mapping as far as possible; things that look like dotted-quad addresses should not be returned by getnameinfo(3) as hostnames, because getaddrinfo(3) will not treat them as hostnames. -zefram -- Andrew Main -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 01:45:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8ixU3029092; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S8ixpN029091; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8iuU3029084 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S8fxUu012378 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S8fqWc017632 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:41:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S8fp418834 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:48 +0300 Received: from esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.45]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:48 +0300 Received: from trebe004.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.232.177]) by esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:47 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:46 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll Thread-Index: AcNs6toTNgKwnfUdQamuuhiLbA+DkAAVCWoQ From: To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 08:41:47.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[37A34F90:01C36D40] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S8iuU3029085 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, I vote for B, as it seems to be the most reasonable way forward. However, C sound tempting too. Br, Teemu > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 28 August, 2003 01:27 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: Hinden Bob (IPRG); Margaret Wasserman > Subject: Current Results from Poll > > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started > early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please > do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being > on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to > respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We > plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the > working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to > directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. > I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not > rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific > alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and > will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being > deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline > discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed > through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the > working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the > working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should > proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having > an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This > would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I > outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 01:50:14 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8oEU3029175; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S8oEQi029174; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S8oAU3029161 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S8lEV7018811 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S8l4NM025486 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:47:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6/2003.04.01) with ESMTP id h7S8l0p28579; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:47:00 +0200 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7S8kgHN033680; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:46:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200308280846.h7S8kgHN033680@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 PDT. <4.3.2.7.2.20030804102842.0331d820@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:46:42 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I prefer B (I don't want to see private reinvention of SLs). Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 02:05:07 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S956U3029733; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S956aR029732; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S953U3029725 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S926V7023226 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S91qWc025874 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:02:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6p2/8.11.6/2003.04.01) with ESMTP id h7S90jp29336; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:00:45 +0200 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7S90PHN033790; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:00:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200308280900.h7S90PHN033790@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: "Chirayu Patel" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Derek Fawcus'" , "'Joshua Graessley'" Subject: Re: What is the length of the Link-Local prefix? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:26:03 +0530. <00fc01c36d0f$ef597460$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:00:25 +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: If the next 54 bits are always expected to be zero then the prefix should be declared to fe80::/64, and RFC 3513 should be corrected. Do any of the old timers have a take on this one? Jim, Keith, Tony, Brian..... anyone? :-) => there is a semantic problem: - if the question is how to distinguish link-locals using a prefix notation, the answer is fe80::/10. - if the question is what kind of link-local prefixes should be used, for instance in routing tables (i.e., in concrete instances), then the answer is fe80::/64 and in general with a zone id (aka scope id) constraint, i.e., fe80::/64%. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 02:51:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9pWU3000511; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S9pWxi000510; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9pPU3000492 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S9mSV7006615 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GUANGZHOU_T ([218.106.146.190]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S9imkH020183 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:44:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308280944.h7S9imkH020183@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Wicked screensaver Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:17 +0800 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_01DA068C" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_01DA068C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see the attached file for details. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAEgcAABYHAABYGwcAAFhDMDAxODE1ZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJoHAABYQzAwMTgxNWQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJAIAABYQzAwMTgxNWQ= --_NextPart_000_01DA068C-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 02:52:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9qSU3000540; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S9qSYM000539; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9qPU3000532 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S9nSV7006836 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S9jnkH020914 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7S9jlYG082568 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:47 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7S9js6l055286 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:54 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21828 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4DCF42.8BC292DC@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:38 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F4D40E9.8060303@eng.monash.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The deprecation text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt was very carefully drafted after observing the mailing list debate, including the earlier poll reponses. While I don't want to complicate the discussion further, I would like to suggest that people read Section 4 of the draft very closely, before making their choice. To save you some bother, here is that section in its entirety, with a silly typo corrected: 4 Deprecation This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The special behavior of this prefix MUST no longer be supported in new implementations. The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent routing of this prefix by default. Existing implementations and deployments MAY continue to use this prefix. Brian Greg Daley wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > I know I'm late, but I vote for B. > > Greg Daley > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August > > are: > > > > Preference A 21 > > Preference B 13 > > Preference C 7 > > ------ > > Total 41 > > > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation > > or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You > > can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan > > to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > > got them correctly) in a few weeks. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >> From: Bob Hinden > >> Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >> Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >> > >> [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >> > >> I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >> site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > >> group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > >> relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > >> deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > >> to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > >> issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > >> > >> We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >> , a specific alternative > >> to site-local addresses draft > >> (accepted as a working > >> group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > >> why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > >> deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > >> IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >> normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >> > >> I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > >> group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > >> maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > >> Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > >> alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > >> available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > >> alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > >> think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > >> reasonable alternative. > >> > >> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > >> I think the choices are: > >> > >> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > >> alternative solution available. This would mean that the working > >> group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution > >> documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was > >> no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. > >> > >> B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >> solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > >> the same time and making them include normative references to each > >> other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > >> result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > >> an alternative. > >> > >> C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >> standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not > >> advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence > >> that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > >> Site-Local addresses. > >> > >> Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >> publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >> > >> Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >> alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. > >> I hope that many of you will respond. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Bob > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 04:25:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SBP1U3002514; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SBP1Dm002513; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SBOwU3002506 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SBM2V7003636 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com (e33.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.131]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SBLvEJ020392 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7SBLhhu323816; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:21:43 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7SBLgxo321990; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:21:42 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7SBJdr16816; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:19:47 -0400 Message-Id: <200308281119.h7SBJdr16816@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: john.loughney@nokia.com cc: itojun@itojun.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: Message from john.loughney@nokia.com of "Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:21 +0300." Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:19:39 -0400 From: Thomas Narten Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > My understanding was that we didn't want the Node Requirements document > be the bucket where we toss all of the fixes needed to various RFCs, > etc. FWIW, I think this is right approach. > I assume that if addrconf needs updating, it should be done there, OK. At least this previous co-author is shamed into agreeing that addr-conf document should be revved. First step is a list of items that need fixing. I believe I have a start of a list squirreled away somewhere. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 05:14:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCENU3003676; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SCENu0003675; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCEIU3003665 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SCBNUu013572 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu (newdev.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.212]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SCBIvG000650 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:11:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7SCAwn2010615; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.12.9/8.12.2/Submit) id h7SCAwcE010611; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:10:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Bradner Message-Id: <200308281210.h7SCAwcE010611@newdev.harvard.edu> To: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll Cc: mrw@windriver.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. B -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 05:17:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCHCU3003862; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SCHBLl003861; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCH8U3003854 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SCECV7019216 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmail.caspian.com (mr200a.caspiannetworks.com [63.108.173.139]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SCE7NM013267 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:14:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from innovationslab.net ([172.17.55.3]) by cmail.caspian.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.4-GA) with ESMTP id AHY02641; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F4DF202.7040601@innovationslab.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:13:54 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Geoff Huston CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Geoff, Geoff Huston wrote: > I see that the local use address draft has been revised and published > as a WG > document. > > In section 3.2.2 of the draft, it notes that, in reference to Locally > Assigned Global IDs that "the likelihood of conflict is small. " > > I had noted in draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt that the > likelihood of conflict is given by the formula: > > P = 1 - ((n!) / ((n**d)(n-d)!)) > > where n = 2**40 and d is the number of random 'draws' from the pool. > > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. My disagreement with this calculation is two-fold. The first issue I have is that these addresses are not meant to be routed globally, so there is an additional variable that needs to be considered when calculating P for collisions. That is, the P above needs to take into account the probability that two networks trying to use the same prefix are connected. My second issue is with the formula itself. RFC 1889 uses an MD5 hash for calculating its SSRC Identifier (a 32-bit number). That document states: the probability that two sources independently pick the same value can be approximated for large N [20] as 1 - exp(-N**2 / 2**(L+1)). For N=1000, the probability is roughly 10**-4. N represents the number sources (number of entities making a random selection) and L is the length of the identifier. I see this formula being more representative of the probability of collision. Regards, Brian H. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 05:30:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCUWU3004576; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SCUWkV004575; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SCUSU3004566 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SCRXUu018478 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmail.caspian.com (mr200a.caspiannetworks.com [63.108.173.139]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SCRSvG021687 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:27:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from innovationslab.net ([172.17.55.3]) by cmail.caspian.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.4-GA) with ESMTP id AHY02750; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F4DF529.9080501@innovationslab.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:27:21 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Random algorithm in draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk There have been several comments on eliminating the user input portion of the random selection algorithm. This would, primarily, provide the capability to automate the prefix generation process. After assessing issues with this, I have two possible proposals: 1. Re-use the random ID process defined in Appendix A.6 in RFC 1889. That algorithm derives a 32-bit number from the system clock, system name, process ID, and several other system-related IDs. It would have to be modified slightly to provide a 40-bit value. 2. Replace the user-supplied birthday value with a system derived value (EUI has been suggested). The system clock would still be utilized as a portion of the input to MD5. It should be noted that #1 will return the same value on repeated calls until the system clock changes or a different value is passed in as a parameter. At this point, my preference is for #1, since it has been tested as a part of RTCP and the probability function is well-defined in the rfc. If others have differing opinions, let me know. Thanks, Brian H. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 07:59:29 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SExSU3007228; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SExSBf007227; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SExPU3007218 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SEuTUu008748 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SEuONM021527 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:56:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7SE36Oj976260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:03:00 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Message-ID: <229691734.1062064980@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk But don't "conflicts" matter only for separate sites that later decide to connect to each other using these addresses? In that context 1 out of 1.24 million seems small. That does not mean we should not include that math, just that the conclusion is valid, especially for an address type that is designed to be near-unique as opposed to guaranteed unique. --On Thursday, August 28, 2003 08:14 +1000 Geoff Huston wrote: > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. > Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 08:54:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SFs0U3008063; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SFs0jP008062; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM [129.148.13.40]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SFruU3008055 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunk.east.sun.com (thunk.East.Sun.COM [129.148.174.66]) by eastmail2bur.East.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SFmKtK011417; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thunk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thunk.east.sun.com (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SFmKD9019815; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308281548.h7SFmKD9019815@thunk.east.sun.com> From: Bill Sommerfeld To: Brian E Carpenter cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:38 +0200." <3F4DCF42.8BC292DC@zurich.ibm.com> Reply-to: sommerfeld@east.sun.com Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:48:20 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix > defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The > special behavior of this prefix MUST no longer be supported in new > implementations. Does this imply "but SHOULD otherwise be treated like a global unicast prefix"? > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > routing of this prefix by default. in the interests of increased precision, by "routing", do you mean: (distributing routing information relating to fec0::/10) or (forwarding packets with destination in fec0::/10) or (forwarding packets with source or destination in fec0::/10) or some combination thereof? - Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 10:25:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SHPBU3008916; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SHPB3g008915; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SHP5U3008901 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SHMAUu005709 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SHM4wC024293 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe2 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKC00DWOAWSRB@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([66.93.78.11]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HKC00JCDAWH6K@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:24:18 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. In-reply-to: <3F4DCF42.8BC292DC@zurich.ibm.com> To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <7488DFFA-D97C-11D7-B5A6-00039376A6AA@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thursday, August 28, 2003, at 02:45 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > 4 Deprecation > > This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix > defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The > special behavior of this prefix MUST no longer be supported in new > implementations. What does this last sentence exactly means? no special rules in address selection? no special site ID treatment? It would be better to reference particular sections of existing RFCs that gets obsoleted. Btw, how can an IETF document say: an MUST not support X" ? This makes little sense to me... Now, what is a new implementation? I would rather like to see some text like: The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: section a.b.c of RFC XXXX ..... > The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use > except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the > addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. > > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > routing of this prefix by default. This seems to contradict the initial sentence I have just commented on. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 11:15:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SIFWU3009872; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SIFWx8009871; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SIFTU3009864 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SICYV7005216 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DAMASCUS.chrims.com (gw.baymeadows.chrims.com [167.160.208.2] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SICS6L024715 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by DAMASCUS.chrims.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:12:05 -0700 Message-ID: <2C87B4813250464C9BFA684F807673D5D8463D@DAMASCUS.chrims.com> From: Sean Gray To: "'Bob Hinden'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:07:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote B. Thanks. -Sean -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:27 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman Subject: Current Results from Poll The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 12:04:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJ4oU3010745; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SJ4otw010744; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJ4kU3010737 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SJ1pV7025297 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SJ1jWc017147 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:01:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zctfc040.europe.nortel.com (zctfc040.europe.nortel.com [47.164.129.95]) by zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h7SJ1DK02605; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:01:13 +0200 (MEST) Received: by zctfc040.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:01:11 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Cedric Aoun" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:01:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C36D96.6B08DEB2" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36D96.6B08DEB2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hi, I vote for B Thanks Cedric Aoun -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] Sent: 28 August 2003 00:27 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman Subject: Current Results from Poll The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C36D96.6B08DEB2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Current Results from Poll

Hi,
I vote for B
Thanks
Cedric Aoun

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com]<= /FONT>
Sent: 28 August 2003 00:27
To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman
Subject: Current Results from Poll


The current results of the poll (appended below) = started early in August are:

     Preference = A       21
     Preference = B       13
     Preference = C        7
          &nb= sp;          ------
     = Total           &= nbsp;  41

If you missed this and want to express a preference, = please do so.  41
isn't a large number given the size of the working = group.  The chairs
wanted to give folks who might have missed this due = to being on vacation or
who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance = to respond.  You can
send your responses directly to the chairs or to the = list. We plan to send
a final summary (including the actual results to = make sure we got them
correctly) in a few weeks.

Thanks,
Bob

>Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700
>To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
>From: Bob Hinden = <hinden@IPRG.nokia.com>
>Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local = Addressing
>Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com
>
>[IPv6 working group chair hat on]
>
>I think the working group has been making good = progress on replacing
>site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back = from the working group on
>how we should move forward.  This is not = intended to directly relate to
>the ongoing appeal of the working groups = decision to deprecate the usage
>site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how = to proceed.  I think it
>is very important that we move forward on this = issue and not rehash what
>has happened in the past.
>
>We now have a combined local addressing = requirements document
><draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-00.txt>, a = specific alternative to
>site-local addresses draft = <draft-hinden-ipv6-global-local-addr-02.txt>
>(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna = IETF), and will soon have
>a draft describing why site-local addresses are = being deprecated and doing
>the formal deprecation (authors identified and = outline discussed at the
>Vienna IETF).  Note that all of these = documents will proceed through the
>normal working group and IETF processes of last = calls and review.
>
>I think legitimate questions have been raised = about how the working group
>should go about deprecating site-local addresses = given their maturity in
>the current specifications and use in deployed = products.  Specifically
>should they be deprecated independently from = having an alternative
>solution available, at the same time an = alternative is available, or
>sometime after an alternative is = available.  A forth alternative is to not
>replace site-local addresses in any form, but I = think the working group
>has made it clear that this is not a reasonable = alternative.
>
>I would like to hear from the working group on = how we should proceed.  I
>think the choices are:
>
>A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently = from having an alternative
>solution available.  This would mean that = the working group should treat
>the deprecation, and requirements and solution = documents outlined above
>independently from each other.  If there = was no consensus on an
>alternative a replacement would not = happen.
>
>B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same = time as a alternative
>solution is agreed to.  This would mean = advancing both documents at the
>same time and making them include normative = references to each other to
>insure that they were published at the same = time.  This would result in
>the deprecation only happening if a consensus = was reached on an alternative.
>
>C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an = alternative is defined,
>standardized, and in operational practice.  = This would mean not advancing
>a deprecation document until there was = operational evidence that the
>alternative was working and shown to be an = improvement over Site-Local
>addresses.
>
>Note:  In the above choices "Deprecate = Site-Local addresses" means
>publishing an RFC that does the formal = deprecation.
>
>Please respond to the list with your preference, = or if there is an
>alternative approach that is an improvement from = the ones I outlined.  I
>hope that many of you will respond.
>
>Thanks,
>Bob

---------------------------------------------------------------= -----
IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List
IPng Home = Page:           &= nbsp;          http://playground.sun.com/ipng
FTP = archive:          &nbs= p;           ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng
Direct all administrative requests to = majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C36D96.6B08DEB2-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 12:05:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJ5FU3010767; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SJ5Fdv010766; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJ59U3010759 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SJ2EV7025462 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com (zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com [47.164.128.120]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SJ24XY018882 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com (zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com [47.160.46.124]) by zctfs063.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h7SJ1qK02614; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:01:53 +0200 (MEST) Received: by zwcwc012.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:01:53 +0100 Message-ID: <4103264BC8D3D51180B7002048400C45016236F0@zhard0jd.europe.nortel.com> From: "Elwyn Davies" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:01:52 +0100 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi. I vote B with C as a second preference. Ending up with no site locals for any period of time will just result in people inventing them in an ad-hoc fashion. Regards, Elwyn Davies > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 27 August 2003 23:27 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman > Subject: Current Results from Poll > > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started > early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please > do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being > on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to > respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We > plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the > working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to > directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. > I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not > rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific > alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and > will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being > deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline > discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed > through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the > working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the > working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should > proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having > an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This > would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I > outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 12:29:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJT5U3011321; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SJT5BH011320; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SJT1U3011313 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SJQ6V7006725 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SJMRbu017580 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7SJMRq07559; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:22:27 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308281922> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdamEMsb; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:22:25 PDT Message-ID: <3F4E588A.3@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:31:22 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com CC: Fred Templin Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <20030822162606.613a22c0.moore@cs.utk.edu> <00f401c368ee$8f2f4210$63124104@eagleswings> <20030822165940.327186cf.moore@cs.utk.edu> <3F468C93.9020100@iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk OK, let's try this again. I have just posted a new version of the hain/templin draft to the I-D registrar that includes updates based on change suggestions from the wg discussion. (Special thanks to those who sent comments.) While we await the I-D action announcement, the new version can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/osprey67/limitedrange-02.txt I believe this version should address most of the concerns brought up during the discussions and thus clear the way for the document becoming a wg item. Otherwise, please send specific comments as to what still needs to change. Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 14:35:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SLYxU3012640; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SLYxn2012639; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bebop.France.Sun.COM (bebop.France.Sun.COM [129.157.174.15]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SLYtU3012632 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lillen (d-mpk17-89-193.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.89.193]) by bebop.France.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id h7SLVvQ07801; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:31:58 +0200 (MEST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:28:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Erik Nordmark Reply-To: Erik Nordmark Subject: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: erik.nordmark@Sun.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Non-routed ad-hoc networks, and in particular multi-homing to such things, have been discussed on the list but I don't recall seeing a discussion of how naming could work in such a case, hence this post. [Note I say "non-routed" because there is the MANET type world where there are routers that glue together multiple links and I don't think they have this issue.] For a single ad-hoc link I can see LLMNR work as a naming protocol (and link-locals or any other IP address can be used - doesn't matter since all IP addresses must either be local to the link or be unreachable). Thus the user or devvice could pick a name (e.g. "laptop" or "philips-coffee-maker") and check if any other node on the link is already using that name (do an LLMNR lookup); if the name is already being used pick another name ("eriks-laptop", "philips-coffee-maker-serial-number-0345174"). Then LLMNR lookups would work just fine - users type "laptop" as the name; all assuming there is no multi-homed nodes. This seems like a useful and harmful application of IPv6 in the small. But when multihoming enters, in particular there are nodes which have multiple interfaces enabled at the same time, then things get more difficult. Imagine the multihomed node has two interfaces and there are multiple neighbors on each of those interfaces. On interface A a node might pick the name "laptop" and another node might pick the same name of interface B without conflict; the lookup for duplications can't be forwarded since there is no router between the two links. In this case, independently of what addressing and scope-ids, a application looking up the name "laptop" will have a non-unique name. So either the LLMNR type lookup needs to be relayed by the multihomed node (seems to have all the usual loop avoidance issues plus the inability to treat the links as different from a security perspective; somebody on some less trusted link can prevent me from using a name on my more trusted link), or there has to be some infrastructure that can make sure that the names become unique across the two links (e.g. by handing out different name suffixes for the two links). Alternatively this could be made a routed ad-hoc network using DNS for naming and avoid the issue. My point is that even with applications and/or APIs that deal with scope ids, there is a difficult naming issue when multihoming is applied to non-routed ad-hoc networks. This seems to be a more basic issue than whether or not link-local addresses can be used by the applications in this case. Erik -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 15:43:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SMhaU3013477; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SMhau0013476; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SMhWU3013469 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SMebUu028766 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.49]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SMeV6L026021 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esealnt612.al.sw.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.118]) by albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.9/8.12.9/WIREfire-1.7) with ESMTP id h7SMeSAv021731; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:40:28 +0200 (MEST) Received: by esealnt612.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:40:27 +0200 Message-ID: <76E5F712842F5F49A35738622BAA0F4F03768299@ESEALNT442.al.sw.ericsson.se> From: "Karim El-Malki (HF/EAB)" To: "'Bob Hinden '" , "'ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com '" Cc: "'Margaret Wasserman '" Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:40:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for B since it will make sure that we'll get some form of local addressing. (already sent my vote weeks ago but I didn't see it on the list, so am resending in case it wasn't counted). /Karim -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman Sent: 8/28/2003 12:26 AM Subject: Current Results from Poll The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 15:56:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SMu8U3013810; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SMu7CS013808; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SMu3U3013793 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SMr8Uu003993 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SMr2NM025284 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7SMsubO030845; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:56 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7SMstZv030844; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:55 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks From: Mika Liljeberg To: Erik Nordmark Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1062111295.9717.328.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:55 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 00:28, Erik Nordmark wrote: > But when multihoming enters, in particular there are nodes which have > multiple interfaces enabled at the same time, then things get more > difficult. > Imagine the multihomed node has two interfaces and there are multiple neighbors > on each of those interfaces. On interface A a node might pick the name > "laptop" and another node might pick the same name of interface B without > conflict; the lookup for duplications can't be forwarded since there is no > router between the two links. In this case, independently of what addressing > and scope-ids, a application looking up the name "laptop" will have a > non-unique name. I suppose it comes down to what one considers good enough. In practise people will have to learn to pick names that have a very good probability of being unique. Unique not only in the current situation but also in any ad-hoc situation the user might run into during the course of the day. Having to change the name of the device every time the set of neighbors changes is a pretty good way of learning that words like "laptop" are not particularly good choises. The conflict resolution protocol is just a way of letting the user know that a particular name is ambiguous in the domain that is currently reachable. One of the users will then have to pick another name and announce it to any other users who knew about the old name and were using it. Having the conlict resolution protocol remove a name or change it to something else will not remove the confusion, since the old name will still be lodged into the minds of the people who need it. Frankly, I don't see that having multiple intefaces makes all that much difference. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 16:32:05 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SNW4U3014552; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SNW481014551; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bebop.France.Sun.COM (bebop.France.Sun.COM [129.157.174.15]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SNW0U3014544 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lillen (d-mpk17-89-193.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.89.193]) by bebop.France.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id h7SNSxQ15314; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:28:59 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:25:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Erik Nordmark Reply-To: Erik Nordmark Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks To: Mika Liljeberg Cc: Erik Nordmark , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: "Your message with ID" <1062111295.9717.328.camel@hades> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The conflict resolution protocol is just a way of letting the user know > that a particular name is ambiguous in the domain that is currently > reachable. One of the users will then have to pick another name and > announce it to any other users who knew about the old name and were > using it. Having the conlict resolution protocol remove a name or change > it to something else will not remove the confusion, since the old name > will still be lodged into the minds of the people who need it. > > Frankly, I don't see that having multiple intefaces makes all that much > difference. The difference is that the names need to be unique not only on one link, but across all interfaces connected to the multihomed host. How would you expect conflict resolution to handle that? Erik -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 17:28:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0SiU3015394; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T0SiXv015393; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0SeU3015386 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T0PjV7020539 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0LuRK009904 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:21:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (rsdhcp13.telstra.net [203.50.0.207]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7T0LnRc038524; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:21:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030829094325.01f4c0b0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:54:26 +1000 To: Hans Kruse , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: <229691734.1062064980@hkruse2003a> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk You are correct in that the "conflicts" matters at the point that the two sites want to interact in such a fashion that the expose their local use addresses to each other, now or at any time in the future. Now if you have a random selection algorithm that truly has 2**40 bits of entropy the chances of any two identified random draws from this space having a clash remains 1 / (2**40), but if you take the total pool of such randomly drawn numbers and ask "how big does the pool need to get to lift the change of a clash within the pool above 0.5?", then the pool size is 1.24 million. If the expectation that this address format is to be used extensively for local connectivity independently of upstream connectivity then I would contend that uniqueness is essential, and the local selection methodology should not be proposed, as its uniqueness properties are flawed. So I suppose I am saying that this is "nowhere near unique", and that if the entire idea of this concept is to avoid the use of reused private RFC1918-styled addresses and the associated NAT functionality, then this local selection algorithm should not be included in this proposal. regards, Geoff At 10:03 AM 28/08/2003 -0400, Hans Kruse wrote: >But don't "conflicts" matter only for separate sites that later decide to >connect to each other using these addresses? > >In that context 1 out of 1.24 million seems small. That does not mean we >should not include that math, just that the conclusion is valid, >especially for an address type that is designed to be near-unique as >opposed to guaranteed unique. > >--On Thursday, August 28, 2003 08:14 +1000 Geoff Huston >wrote: > >>The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd >>contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. > > > >Hans Kruse, Associate Professor >J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management >Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science >Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 >740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 17:44:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0ifU3015711; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T0ifif015710; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0icU3015703 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T0fhUu016997 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0fbBo008219 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (rsdhcp13.telstra.net [203.50.0.207]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7T0fPRc040434; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:41:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030829102531.00b8caa0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:41:21 +1000 To: Brian Haberman From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F4DF202.7040601@innovationslab.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for your response Brian, You note two objections to my comments regarding the random self-selection method as described in the local use address draft. Firstly: "That is, the P above needs to take into account the probability that two networks trying to use the same prefix are connected." I would contend that this is an incomplete analysis of the uniqueness requirement. The requirement for uniqueness is triggered when any two networks using such self-selected global IDs as local address prefixes want to interact in such a fashion that the expose their local use addresses to each other, now or at any time in the future. This statement covers a broader range of potential scenarios and underpins the entire argument for uniqueness in any form of addressing architecture. Your second issue is "with the formula itself". The underlying reasoning behind the formula: P = 1 - ((n!) / ((n**d)(n-d)!)) is that the probability of a clash within a pool of numbers where the pool is of size d and the number space is of size n is 1 minus the probability that all the selected numbers are unique. This is a simple exercise in probabilities: for a pool of size 2 the probability of uniqueness is (n-1)/n for a pool of size 3 the probability of uniqueness is ((n-1)/n) x ((n-2)/n) with the general solution as indicated above. I would observe that this is a correct analysis of the probability of a collision occurring within a pool of d selections from a total space of n possible values. You appear to be asking a different question, namely: "the probability that two sources independently pick the same value", and this is a question relating to degree of entropy in the random selection algorithm. The formula provided above assumes 'perfect' entropy, where the selection algorithm is equally likely to pack any of the n possible values. In this case the changes of a collision occurring with a pool of size 2 is 1/n. My comment is that the factors you need to be mindful of are not only the true randomness of the random number generator, but also the total size of the pool and the size of the number space. regards, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 17:57:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0vaU3016166; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T0vaI9016165; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T0vWU3016155 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T0sbV7001934 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0ocRK002497 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0ociZ002863 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:12 -0700 Received: from [17.219.196.86] ([17.219.196.86]) by scv1.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0oKsH023593 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v589) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joshua Graessley Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:46 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.589) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Aug 28, 2003, at 4:25 PM, Erik Nordmark wrote: >> The conflict resolution protocol is just a way of letting the user >> know >> that a particular name is ambiguous in the domain that is currently >> reachable. One of the users will then have to pick another name and >> announce it to any other users who knew about the old name and were >> using it. Having the conlict resolution protocol remove a name or >> change >> it to something else will not remove the confusion, since the old name >> will still be lodged into the minds of the people who need it. >> >> Frankly, I don't see that having multiple intefaces makes all that >> much >> difference. > > The difference is that the names need to be unique not only on one > link, > but across all interfaces connected to the multihomed host. Do they really? If so, how do we guarantee this? As you mentioned, some sort of conflict resolution protocol would have to allow a node straddling two networks notify nodes of conflicts. This is a very difficult problem to solve. For example, if there are two machines that are connect to the same wired network and wireless network, machine A may see responses from machine B on the wireless network as conflicting with the responses on the wired network from machine B. Machine A has no way to know that the responses are both from the exact same machine so this is perfectly valid. > How would you expect conflict resolution to handle that? I don't think this is something we can solve. I also don't think it is something particularly important to solve. There are a number of simple solutions that could work well. For example, if it was possible to append a name with the interface the query should be sent on (i.e. laptop%en0), this would give someone the ability to specify which "laptop" they were referring to in the case that just specifying laptop would not be enough. Specifying the name alone will often work in 99% of cases. Adding additional functionality to allow this to work for the additional 1% of the cases might be worthwhile. If requiring the protocol perfectly handle that last 1% (the edge cases) results in an impossible task, is it really worth throwing out the protocol that works for 99% of the cases just because we can't perfectly solve the edge case? -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 18:29:59 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T1TxU3017357; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T1TwlX017356; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T1TsU3017349 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T1QxV7014919 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T1Qrbe014106 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6B91419E for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21946-11; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8778713FE3; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: naming and LL in ad hoc networks, The Poll, draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00 (digest) Message-Id: <20030828212652.277ca60f.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk in this issue: On naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks On use of LL in non-routed ad-hoc networks On the Poll On the text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks: Erik is correct to point out the issues associated with naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks if any of the hosts have multiple interfaces. This is similar to a problem that exists in v4LL if any of the hosts have multiple interfaces - multiple hosts can choose the same v4LL address and be reachable by the same host, and a host with multiple interfaces can be forced to choose a new address (thus breaking open connections) if there is a conflict on any of those interfaces. Unlike v4LL, in v6 we generally expect most LL addresses to be globally unique (modulo bugs in the hardware) so address collisions "shouldn't happen". What this probably means is that it's a bad idea to try to make lookup of local names in an ad hoc network look too much like DNS - the ad hoc network has additional failure modes (e.g. name collisions) that the DNS design (and the design of apps using DNS) never anticipated. What you really need is a way to do searches where the client's actual location in the net can be an implicit part of the query. For instance, find the nearby printers, projectors, etc. Of course, you need a separate API for this, and you can't expect apps that are only aware of DNS to make good use of this facility. However that doesn't mean you can't implement lookup of DNS names on an ad hoc network. But the names have to be (a) globally unique and (b) assigned to the host, meaning the host has to be _authoritative_ for its DNS records - i.e. the owner of the parent zone has delegated authority to that host to maintain records for its name. (this isn't a matter of network protocol, it's a matter of deciding who is going to maintain what part of the DNS name tree). If the host is sometimes attached to a "managed" network with real DNS, and its name is advertised via DNS, it's also necessary that the host update the network-accessible servers for its domain (if there are any), whenever it has the chance, to keep them consistent with the RRs it is providing via local lookup. This could employ dynamic update, or zone transfer, whatever. This is mostly useful for supporting name lookup for local hosts when the local net is partitioned from the DNS, and for hosts that migrate (e.g. laptops) to be able to keep their DNS names as they move from one location to another. I don't offhand see how it's useful to appliances. So you need two distinct lookup services on ad hoc networks: - lookup/search of "local" devices - lookup of DNS names on disconnected networks or networks with local scope and offhand I don't think you can reasonably implement either service in terms of the other one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On use of LL in non-routed ad-hoc networks: (continuing from the last topic...) However I still take issue with this statement by Erik: > For a single ad-hoc link I can see LLMNR work as a naming protocol > (and link-locals or any other IP address can be used - doesn't matter > since all IP addresses must either be local to the link or be > unreachable). That's not a valid assumption for several reasons: One is that some apps will need to filter link locals in order to operate correctly under normal conditions, but this behavior won't work for the single ad-hoc link Erik describes - so the app is required to have an option that says "use link locals", which is a pain. Another is that a single-link network might suddenly change to a routed network - these things *are* ad hoc, after all - in which cases the LL address suddenly become very dysfunctional and the link needs to renumber. It is better to avoid that case entirely. Finally, any apps that involve a host with multiple interfaces and attached to multiple networks may be exposed to addresses without being able to know which network the address belongs on. Yes, if the app gets the address via doing LLMNR queries on each link then it can determine which interface to use based on which link the answer came from. But this doesn't help if the app does address referrals, and because scopes don't have names, the app can't include the name of the scope in the referral. It makes far more sense for each link in an ad hoc network to elect its own randomly-generated, probably-unique, prefix. That solves the whole problem of needing to keep up with scope ids in a much more general fashion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the Poll: Have you ever taken one of those multiple choice tests where a lot of the questions have no correct answers (and there is no "none of the above" choice)? A lot of the questions put to this group feel like that, including this one. I don't think the results of the poll can be meaningful because questions B and C are meaningless. If Site-Local doesn't solve "a" problem, and if the problems that Site-Local is supposed to address aren't either well-defined or agreed to, how can there be "an" alternative solution? How will we ever know if these criteria are met and it's okay to deprecate site-locals? I don't see consensus that site-locals solve any real problems. This is a recipe for stalling indefinitely when we need to be making forward progress. It would make far more sense to ask "what things do we need to agree on before we can announce that we're deprecating site-locals?" (IMHO: we need to agree to define GUPIs and PUPIs, and that's it) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt here's (in essence) what I think the relevant section should say: IETF has determined that site-locals are, overall, a highly undesirable feature which are likely to cause harm if widely deployed. Therefore use of IPv6 site-local addresses is formally deprecated existing and future protocols. In particular: - All existing IETF protocols that make special use of site-locals (e.g. address selection) will be revised to discourage or eschew use of site-locals. - Future IETF protocols will not make special use of site-local addresses; such protocols may specifically discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses. - No future IETF protocols will support the routing or provisioning of site-local addresses within networks. - All existing IETF protocols that support routing or provisioning of site-local addresses will be revised to remove such support. Such protocols may be revised to specifically discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses on networks. - Application vendors and protocol authors SHOULD NOT attempt to make special use of site-local addresses in new products, and they SHOULD NOT make any assumptions about the properties (security or otherwise) of site-local addresses if they are encountered in operation. Such applications MAY discourage or eschew use of site-locals. - Existing applications which make special use of site-local addresses SHOULD be modified to not do so. In order to ease transitions for sites and applications that are already using site-local addresses, the revised versions of such applications MAY have a compatibility mode which causes the application to treat site-local addresses as in earlier versions. However, it MUST be possible to disable this mode, and the default setting SHOULD be to not treat site-locals specially. - Routers, firewalls, proxies, and other intermediaries SHOULD NOT support special treatment of site-local addresses. Such devices MAY discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses. - Existing router, firewall, proxy and other intermediary products which treat site-locals specially SHOULD be modified to not do so. Such devices, after modification, MAY have a compatibility mode which enables the deprecated behavior. It MUST be possible to disable this compatibility mode, and the default behavior SHOULD be to disable it. - The addressing architecture [RFC3513] will be revised to classify the FEC0::/10 prefix as "reserved - do not use". This prefix will be available for reassignment by a future IETF standards action. - The specific changes to protocols and specifications to deprecate site-local will be worked out by the groups maintaining the relevant documents as those documents are revised, subject to the following criteria: - the intent is to discontinue protocol support for site-local - site-local use may be discouraged or prevented if operationally necessary - applications and networks using site-local will be encouraged to transition away from site-local - pre-existing use of site-local by applications and within networks may still be permitted for a time in order to avoid imposing abrupt transitions on those users --- That was a lot of text, and I'm not happy with the wording yet, but I don't have time to work it all out right now. The main ideas are: - state broad _intent_ to deprecate site-locals and what this means in general terms for several classes of things (how we intend to change existing ietf protocols, intentions for future IETF protocols, what existing networks and existing apps should do) - don't try to write blanket text that covers exactly what this means in every case - leave the specifics for when the relevant documents are revised - upper-case keywords (MUST,etc) apply to implementations and deployments, not to future IETF standards actions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 19:36:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T2agU3018739; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T2afYI018738; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T2abU3018728 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T2XgV7006543 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T2XbBo010986 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7T2XUEV001695; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:33:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7T2XU3T049284; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:33:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7T2XTOe049281; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: <20030828222916.W49025-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob: I've tried to duck this poll, but to no avail. I prefer option A: deprecate SL, then go to work on defining suitable alternatives. If we can't get concensus on one or more alternatives, we punt. 8-( AEB On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 20:49:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3ngU3020099; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T3ngY7020098; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3ndU3020091 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T3khV7029258 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T3kbNi013920 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7T3WmjA021262; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:32:55 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Subject: RE: Deprecation Poll Vote. Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:19:05 +0530 Message-ID: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <7488DFFA-D97C-11D7-B5A6-00039376A6AA@sun.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7T3ndU3020092 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I would rather like to see some text like: > The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: > > section a.b.c of RFC XXXX > ..... That would be difficult. Text about Site-locals not localized. Maybe we can rephrase the last sentence to "Henceforth the prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 implementations." > > The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use > > except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the > > addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. > > > > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > > routing of this prefix by default. > > This seems to contradict the initial sentence I have just commented on. RFC 3513 states - "Routers must not forward any packets with site-local source or destination addresses outside of the site." (Note the "must") On further thought, we can probably reorganize the section as: "This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. Henceforth FEC0::/10 prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 (for hosts as well as routers) implementations." I also think that we need to have a line that says something like: "The deprecation of IPv6 site-local unicast addresses is applicable to all the usages as specified in RFC A, B, C, D... . Future versions of these RFC's will remove information about site-locals". -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 20:53:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3r0U3020165; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T3qxog020164; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3quU3020157 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T3o1V7000263 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T3kVRK012448 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7T3Wmj9021262; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:32:50 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: Cc: "'Fred Templin'" Subject: RE: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:19:05 +0530 Message-ID: <013401c36de0$81f42970$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <3F4E588A.3@iprg.nokia.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7T3quU3020158 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Fred, I did a quick comparison with my set of comments, and I am happy. :-) Just one minor point. I had asked for adding text that would make it mandatory for each proposal to include statistical analysis for 1) Probability of collision when "x" networks are merged, when "n" addresses have been chosen from the address space of "m" values. 2) Probability to choose a duplicate address after "a" addresses have been chosen from the address space of "m". I see you have added a sentence stating that proposals should include statistical analysis. Is there any reason why you do not want to include the above two points? CP > OK, let's try this again. I have just posted a new version of the > hain/templin > draft to the I-D registrar that includes updates based on change suggestions > from the wg discussion. (Special thanks to those who sent comments.) While > we await the I-D action announcement, the new version can be found at: > > http://www.geocities.com/osprey67/limitedrange-02.txt > > I believe this version should address most of the concerns brought up during > the discussions and thus clear the way for the document becoming a wg item. > Otherwise, please send specific comments as to what still needs to change. > > Fred > ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 22:19:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5JVU3021533; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T5JVOa021532; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5JQU3021525 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T5GVUu014939 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T5GQBo005205 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h7T5GQKX017650 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:16:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by il06exr01.mot.com (Motorola/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h7T5GLLR030050 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:16:23 -0500 Received: from motorola.com (aewhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7T5GLcB029935 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:16:22 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3F4EE1A5.C7DEF5BC@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:16:21 +1000 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPng Subject: What are local addresses? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I think we are getting into tensions because the Hinden/Haberman draft is trying to do two things: specify local addresses and specify a mechanism of ensuring uniqueness. I agree with the former; I don't think the latter is the right solution for all deployment spaces. As tersely as possible, what is a local address? A local address is a unique* PI address with the additional property that it is invalid for use on the public internet and actively filtered by such. Key properties: (1) Because local addresses are unrouteable globally, they avoid the perceived aggregation problems of PI addresses. (2) Because local addresses are PI, they are independent of the presence or absence of PA addressing schemes and service providers. Property (2) of PI is attractive for 'local' communication in environments where PA addresses are unavailable or have unsatisfactory stability. Now, what about that 'uniqueness' property? Because of the possibility of merging, we agree uniqueness is good. However, the fundamental uniqueness requirement is that each "subnet" has a unique /64 prefix (notwithstanding that multiple "subnets" may exist on one physical media / interface). In some deployment scenarios, it will be desirable to allocate a unique /48 prefix to the entire network and manually or automatically subdivide (requires a prefix propagation mechanism). In others (specifically ad-hoc scenarios), it is more useful to allocate a unique /64 to each subnet. In the /48 case, the process is as follows: (1) I need to generate a unique /48 local prefix for my network, under which I will sub-allocate to specific routers. (2) I use a mechanism to generate a unique /48 prefix. (3) I propagate this prefix to all my routers, appending the sub-allocations as I go to create /64 subnets. Using the global registration method, step #2 involves contacting a registry. Using the 'random' method, step #2 involves running the algorithm. As mentioned, step #2 could also be implemented by some form of hash on a MAC or EUI-48/64. My point isn't to take issue with step 2, but to point out that the whole process is only one way of uniquely numbering subnets. Using a /48 in a configured network has the convenience of matching up with the /48 PA addresses usually allocated by ISPs, such that the 49-64 subnet numbering used for external addresses can be synchronised with the subnet numbering used for local addresses. Because the local addresses are not routeable outside the 'local' network, the bits between the top-level prefix designation (fc00::/7) and the /48 network division are unique, unaggregable noise. In an environment where independence is more important than aggregation it makes more sense to ignore the /48 division completely and number at (or closer to) the /64 level. If routers can uniquely generate /64 subnet prefixes then the need for prefix propagation (at the routing layer) is removed. The algorithm is then: (1) I need to generate a unique /64 prefix for each subnet. (2) I use a mechanism to generate a unique /64 for each subnet. Summary: I would like to see the 'unique-local-addressing' document leave some space for alternative generation methods. The easy (only?) way to ensure that alternative methods are cross-wise unique is to allocate a different prefix for each method, in much the same way as the global fc00::/8 and local fd00::/8 prefixes have been done. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 22:26:06 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5Q6U3021608; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T5Q6mY021607; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5Q2U3021596 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T5N7V7027593 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T5N0Ic023583 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:23:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7T5Mv705147; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:22:57 +0300 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:22:57 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 A. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 22:36:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5adU3022035; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T5advr022034; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5aaU3022027 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T5XeV7001396 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T5XXIc026994 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:33:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7T5XRV05275; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:33:29 +0300 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:33:27 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Geoff Huston cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, , Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Geoff Huston wrote: [...] > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. I consider this a bug. Actually, the number of draws should be smaller, e.g. 1000, to avoid having local addresses misused where they should not. That way, prople wouldn't get delusions to e.g. route such addresses in the Internet. 1.24 million draws until a probable conflict could still sound attractive. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 22:38:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5cJU3022092; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T5cJxW022091; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5cGU3022084 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T5ZLUu020478 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T5ZENi023131 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:35:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7T5bHbO032096; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:37:17 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7T5bGJK032095; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:37:16 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks From: Mika Liljeberg To: Erik Nordmark Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1062135436.30883.12.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:37:16 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 02:25, Erik Nordmark wrote: > The difference is that the names need to be unique not only on one link, > but across all interfaces connected to the multihomed host. > > How would you expect conflict resolution to handle that? The conflict only becomes relevant when a multhomed node tries to resolve a name that is not unique across all its interfaces. When it does that it will then receive responses from more than one interface ==> the conflict has been detected. It's then up to humans to fix it. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 22:39:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5d3U3022129; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T5d3EN022128; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T5cxU3022121 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T5a3V7002136 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T5ZwIc027703 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC9B1413D; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25287-03; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envy.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CBF13FFC; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:33:41 -0400 From: Keith Moore To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Andrew.E.White@motorola.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: What are local addresses? Message-Id: <20030829013341.13daf656.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F4EE1A5.C7DEF5BC@motorola.com> References: <3F4EE1A5.C7DEF5BC@motorola.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This all makes good sense to me. The only thing that I question in is whether the random /64 subnet prefixes get generated by the routers or the hosts on the link - and I suspect the latter makes more sense once you start looking at transition scenarios. The way I see it, self-configuring networks get built from the bottom-up, so they should start with /64 prefixes for each link and the routers should figure out how to route between those links by exchanging reachability information for those prefixes. That means that they can't aggregate, and that imposes a scaling limit on self-configured networks, but surely we don't expect self-configuring networks to be as large as managed ones? > I think we are getting into tensions because the Hinden/Haberman draft is > trying to do two things: specify local addresses and specify a mechanism of > ensuring uniqueness. I agree with the former; I don't think the latter is > the right solution for all deployment spaces. > > As tersely as possible, what is a local address? > > A local address is a unique* PI address with the additional property > that it is invalid for use on the public internet and actively filtered > by such. > > Key properties: > > (1) Because local addresses are unrouteable globally, they avoid the > perceived aggregation problems of PI addresses. > > (2) Because local addresses are PI, they are independent of the presence or > absence of PA addressing schemes and service providers. > > Property (2) of PI is attractive for 'local' communication in environments > where PA addresses are unavailable or have unsatisfactory stability. > > > Now, what about that 'uniqueness' property? > > Because of the possibility of merging, we agree uniqueness is good. > However, the fundamental uniqueness requirement is that each "subnet" has a > unique /64 prefix (notwithstanding that multiple "subnets" may exist on one > physical media / interface). In some deployment scenarios, it will be > desirable to allocate a unique /48 prefix to the entire network and manually > or automatically subdivide (requires a prefix propagation mechanism). In > others (specifically ad-hoc scenarios), it is more useful to allocate a > unique /64 to each subnet. ...etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 23:07:03 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T673U3022685; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T672fX022684; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T66uU3022670 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T641Uu028932 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T63sBo029648 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (rsdhcp13.telstra.net [203.50.0.207]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7T61tRc051476; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:01:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030829155921.00ba18a8@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:01:43 +1000 To: Pekka Savola From: Geoff Huston Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, , In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Of course one could take this approach to its logical conclusion and specify a single global ID to use in such a context. That will reduce the minimum number of draws to generate a collision to 2. Is that what you are after? thanks, Geoff At 08:33 AM 29/08/2003 +0300, Pekka Savola wrote: >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Geoff Huston wrote: >[...] > > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. > >I consider this a bug. Actually, the number of draws should be smaller, >e.g. 1000, to avoid having local addresses misused where they should not. > >That way, prople wouldn't get delusions to e.g. route such addresses in >the Internet. 1.24 million draws until a probable conflict could still >sound attractive. > >-- >Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the >Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." >Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 23:11:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T6BJU3022933; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T6BJev022932; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T6BEU3022912 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T68JUu000396 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T68DBo002383 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.71.177.254) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Aug 2003 23:18:38 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7T68AgM026980; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-133.cisco.com [10.82.224.133]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id ABY09786; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030828153702.045d7078@localhost> X-Sender: rdroms@flask.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:51:02 -0400 To: "Tony Hain" From: Ralph Droms Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience Cc: In-Reply-To: <028301c36b2a$4aed25c0$63124104@eagleswings> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030824125230.04024320@funnel.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 09:59 AM 8/25/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: >Ralph Droms wrote: > > ... > > Certainly some of my problems with IPv4LL have resulted, as > > you suggest, from the restriction that an interface have just > > one dynamic IPv4 address at a time. I think there's more to > > the problem - my experience has been that the IPv4LL address > > is configured *silently*, so I have no expectation that the > > interface is configured in an unexpected way and that, > > because of that configuration, none of my applications will work. > > > > Perhaps the "configured silently" problem is a UI issue? I'd > > also like, as a UI issue I guess, the ability to turn off the > > configuration of IPv4LL addresses. Personally, I don't have > > any convenient way to use an IPv4LL address, and I'd rather > > not have any address configured at all than an IPv4LL > > address. (Note that I'm still talking about IPv4 here and > > not making any predictions about the availability of > > applications that can use IPv6LL > > addresses.) > >I understand the 'not configured as expected' issue. What I don't understand >is why you would rather have no address, unless your stack does not recover >and obtain a different IPv4 address when available. If it does recover, I >don't see any failure modes that having an IPv4LL creates. If it doesn't >recover, I would consider that to be a broken stack. Well, if I don't have any way to use a LL address, I would rather not have it configured, so that (presumably) I would get an active indication that "sumthin's broke" and, if I know to use ipconfig or the right twisty little maze of control panels, I'll see 0.0.0.0 or 0::0, which is more obviously broken than a LL address. To most people, including myself if I don't look carefully, looks like a valid IP address. That is, if "the network is not working", and I poke at the IP address and see something vaguely right, then I'll start looking somewhere else for the problem. Which I've done and wasted more time at than I care to think about. So, maybe it's really a UI problem - in any event, that's why I would rather have no address at all than an LL address. > > So, will this problem be solved in IPv6LL addressing? Will I > > either get some indication from the stack that "no global > > addresses are configured" or will applications work as usual > > within the constraints of the network resources that can be > > reached on the LL? > >This is of course implementation dependent. Personally I believe >applications need to work within the constraints of LL on both ends at a >minimum. If an app is trying to reach a global, but doesn't have an address >of that scope, a UI should complain. I don't know if it should be the app or >stack, but in the context of my 'solving the right problem' note, I would >rather keep that knowledge contained inside the stack. Actually making the >connection between LL & Global is probably best left as a local policy >decision, with the default to deny out of scope connections. > > > In any event, I should be a little more precise when I say > > "applications can't use LL addresses". What I mean here is > > that the applications won't work in the way I expect. That > > is, I can't use DNS to identify hosts the application should > > communicate with, so I have to use an out of band > > (shout-down-the-hall?) protocol to ask "What's the address of > > your host" so I have an IP address to give to the > > application. I don't see where IPv6LL addressing works any > > differently in this regard than IPv4LL addressing, so I don't > > see how applications will work any better with IPv6LL addresses. > >Well to start with, unless your host has a host file, or you happen to be on >the same link as a DNS service/proxy, you will never get a DNS response so >the whole scenario breaks down. Today if there is no DNS response, people >either type in addresses or give up. The yet to be determined 'shout down >the hall' protocol provides an alternative for the situations where the >nodes happen to share the same link. It doesn't break the primary DNS path, >it just adds in to forestall the giving up point. Since typing in IPv6 >addresses will really not be feasible, mdns/LLMNR/... really takes that >slot. So do we really not have a complete LL story until mdns/LLMNR/... is standardized and available? > > ... > > I may have misunderstood your part of your original message, > > in which you > > wrote: > > > > >So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking > > the barrage > > >of gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from > > the marine > > >he just bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are > > >pseudo-random) 32 hex characters for both the src & dst. > > > > Are you describing configuring the interface, configuring the > > src and dst in a specific datagram or specifying addresses to > > an application? > >Anything that would need to be configured. IPv6LL is autoconfigured, so that >would not need to be typed in, but if there is a directive that applications >can't use LL, then some other address might need to be added. The point was >that the situation calls for recognizable strings of characters, therefore >some kind of mapping service to whatever addresses are in use. With >LLMNR/mdns/... type of service, there is no need to type in literal >addresses to the application, or to the stack to make sure there is >something other than a LL there. But there's the rub...we don't have LLMNR/mdns/..., so we don't really have a LL story. I'm all for incremental development like IPv6LL - but it's not a panacea until we have a complete system that lets me use my laptop in exactly the same way on a LL-only network as on the global Internet. - Ralph -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Aug 28 23:11:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T6BNU3022942; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T6BNot022941; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T6BGU3022922 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T68LUu000404 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T68DBp002383 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Aug 2003 23:18:40 -0700 Received: from flask.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@flask.cisco.com [161.44.122.62]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7T68D7b007799; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rdroms-w2k01.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-133.cisco.com [10.82.224.133]) by flask.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id ABY09787; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030828155341.045e8b30@localhost> X-Sender: rdroms@flask.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:01:47 -0400 To: Fred Templin From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3F467279.3090706@iprg.nokia.com> References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Fred - I'm not sure I have a strong argument against link local addresses, per se. I do observe that, as of today, we don't have a complete system for building an ad hoc network - of which LL addresses would be a part. That is, I don't see how the average Internet user can sit at a table in a bar with a couple of other folks and "do networking". We have a way for getting LL addresses, but as far as I know nothing better than "hey, what's your IP address" as a way to use applications to communicate on that network. Site-local addresses are more problematic - they cross more architectural/political/layer 8 boundaries. As you suggest, there are issues with address assignment and delegation, routing, provider independence, etc. I'm not sure we have a tight/complete set of requirements that are not met by global addresses to guide the design of some other form of addressing ... so I don't know that we can effectively discuss whether one solution or another is the right solution. - Ralph At 12:43 PM 8/22/2003 -0700, Fred Templin wrote: >Hi Ralph, > >I think I'm beginning to notice a trend in these discussions. There seem to >be strong arguements against site-local addresses, link-local addresses, >multi-addressing, and even "limited-range" addresses such as those >proposed in the Hinden/Haberman draft. Without any of these options, >it seems to me that all we would have left to consider would be globals. > >But, how can a host get a global if it comes up in an ad-hoc network with >no router? The only option I can see is for the host to have a "burned-in" >global address that comes from, e.g., a centralized addressing authority and >is assigned, e.g., by the manufacturer, by the user's manual configuration, >etc. So, the global would be just like a MAC address in this sense - right? >This would all be fine, but we are hit once again with the question of >how this would impact routing scalability. Any ideas? > >Fred >ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com > >Ralph Droms wrote: > >> >> >>At 10:00 PM 8/21/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: >> >>>This is a clear capability & advantage that IPv6 brings over IPv4. >>>The only thing holding it back is the obstinate views of those who don't >>>want to make the scenarios work. After-all they don't work in IPv4, so they >>>must not be really needed, right??? >> >> >>Tony - (assuming "they" == IPv6LL) can you explain why IPv6LL will work >>while "they don't work in IPv4"? My experience with IPv4LL has been >>uniformly bad; I've never intentionally used an IPv4LL address and the >>automatic assignment of an IPv4LL address has on several (many?) occasions >>silently interfered with my ability to assign a non-LL address and use >>greater internet connectivity. I will admit ignorance and am happy to hear >>success stories about IPv4LL. >> >>I don't know that some folks "don't want to make the scenario work". I >>don't understand the advantage to IPv6LL from the scenario you described. >>We can assign IPv4LL addresses today in a one-link, no router ad-hoc >>network. But we have to enter the addresses manually and those addresses >>get in the way when full Internet connectivity becomes available. What's >>different with IPv6LL? >> >>- Ralph >> >> >> >> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- >>IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >>IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >>FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >>Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 05:08:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TC8qU3028647; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TC8qZY028646; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TC8mU3028639 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TC5qUu013563 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TC5jP8004821 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7TC5OJ4016616; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:24 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7TC5U0E249866; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:30 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA45272; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:21 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4F4179.B079394D@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:13 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chirayu Patel CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Alain Durand'" Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. References: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for this and the other comments. So far I detect broad agreement with what the text is trying to achieve, since all the comments are about how to make it clearer. That being so, I won't respond individually, but I will stack up all these comments ready for the next draft. Brian Chirayu Patel wrote: > > > I would rather like to see some text like: > > The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: > > > > section a.b.c of RFC XXXX > > ..... > > That would be difficult. Text about Site-locals not localized. Maybe we can > rephrase the last sentence to > > "Henceforth the prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 > implementations." > > > > The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use > > > except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the > > > addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. > > > > > > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > > > routing of this prefix by default. > > > > This seems to contradict the initial sentence I have just commented on. > > RFC 3513 states - "Routers must not forward any packets with site-local source > or destination addresses outside of the site." (Note the "must") > > On further thought, we can probably reorganize the section as: > > "This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined > in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The prefix MUST NOT be > reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future > versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this > information. > > Henceforth FEC0::/10 prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new > IPv6 (for hosts as well as routers) implementations." > > I also think that we need to have a line that says something like: > > "The deprecation of IPv6 site-local unicast addresses is applicable to all the > usages as specified in RFC A, B, C, D... . Future versions of these RFC's will > remove information about site-locals". > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 05:24:20 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TCOKU3029344; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TCOKBH029343; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TCOGU3029334 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TCLJUu018285 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.nac.net (mercury.nac.net [64.21.52.92]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h7TCLEP8014190 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 98894 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2003 12:21:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nsx.garage) (gmgross@209.123.180.173) by smtp-auth.nac.net with SMTP; 29 Aug 2003 12:21:08 -0000 Received: (from gmg@localhost) by nsx.garage (8.11.2/8.11.2) id h7TAEJY27014; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:14:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:14:19 -0400 (EDT) From: George Gross To: Ralph Droms cc: Tony Hain , Subject: RE: Some IPv6LL operational experience In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030828153702.045d7078@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, this thread seems to have wandered into the border between IPv6 and the IRTF Peer-to-peer Research Group (the p2prg@ietf.org list). perhaps moving this discussion of link local addresses and name resolution in adhoc networks might find folks in that group who know of solution(s) or the related research? George On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Ralph Droms wrote: > At 09:59 AM 8/25/2003 -0700, Tony Hain wrote: > >Ralph Droms wrote: > > > ... > > > Certainly some of my problems with IPv4LL have resulted, as > > > you suggest, from the restriction that an interface have just > > > one dynamic IPv4 address at a time. I think there's more to > > > the problem - my experience has been that the IPv4LL address > > > is configured *silently*, so I have no expectation that the > > > interface is configured in an unexpected way and that, > > > because of that configuration, none of my applications will work. > > > > > > Perhaps the "configured silently" problem is a UI issue? I'd > > > also like, as a UI issue I guess, the ability to turn off the > > > configuration of IPv4LL addresses. Personally, I don't have > > > any convenient way to use an IPv4LL address, and I'd rather > > > not have any address configured at all than an IPv4LL > > > address. (Note that I'm still talking about IPv4 here and > > > not making any predictions about the availability of > > > applications that can use IPv6LL > > > addresses.) > > > >I understand the 'not configured as expected' issue. What I don't understand > >is why you would rather have no address, unless your stack does not recover > >and obtain a different IPv4 address when available. If it does recover, I > >don't see any failure modes that having an IPv4LL creates. If it doesn't > >recover, I would consider that to be a broken stack. > > Well, if I don't have any way to use a LL address, I would rather not have > it configured, so that (presumably) I would get an active indication that > "sumthin's broke" and, if I know to use ipconfig or the right twisty little > maze of control panels, I'll see 0.0.0.0 or 0::0, which is more obviously > broken than a LL address. To most people, including myself if I don't look > carefully, looks like a valid IP address. > > That is, if "the network is not working", and I poke at the IP address and > see something vaguely right, then I'll start looking somewhere else for the > problem. Which I've done and wasted more time at than I care to think about. > So, maybe it's really a UI problem - in any event, that's why I would rather > have no address at all than an LL address. > > > > So, will this problem be solved in IPv6LL addressing? Will I > > > either get some indication from the stack that "no global > > > addresses are configured" or will applications work as usual > > > within the constraints of the network resources that can be > > > reached on the LL? > > > >This is of course implementation dependent. Personally I believe > >applications need to work within the constraints of LL on both ends at a > >minimum. If an app is trying to reach a global, but doesn't have an address > >of that scope, a UI should complain. I don't know if it should be the app or > >stack, but in the context of my 'solving the right problem' note, I would > >rather keep that knowledge contained inside the stack. Actually making the > >connection between LL & Global is probably best left as a local policy > >decision, with the default to deny out of scope connections. > > > > > In any event, I should be a little more precise when I say > > > "applications can't use LL addresses". What I mean here is > > > that the applications won't work in the way I expect. That > > > is, I can't use DNS to identify hosts the application should > > > communicate with, so I have to use an out of band > > > (shout-down-the-hall?) protocol to ask "What's the address of > > > your host" so I have an IP address to give to the > > > application. I don't see where IPv6LL addressing works any > > > differently in this regard than IPv4LL addressing, so I don't > > > see how applications will work any better with IPv6LL addresses. > > > >Well to start with, unless your host has a host file, or you happen to be on > >the same link as a DNS service/proxy, you will never get a DNS response so > >the whole scenario breaks down. Today if there is no DNS response, people > >either type in addresses or give up. The yet to be determined 'shout down > >the hall' protocol provides an alternative for the situations where the > >nodes happen to share the same link. It doesn't break the primary DNS path, > >it just adds in to forestall the giving up point. Since typing in IPv6 > >addresses will really not be feasible, mdns/LLMNR/... really takes that > >slot. > > So do we really not have a complete LL story until mdns/LLMNR/... is > standardized and available? > > > > ... > > > I may have misunderstood your part of your original message, > > > in which you > > > wrote: > > > > > > >So you are going to tell the army private that is ducking > > > the barrage > > > >of gunfire that he can get the critical info he needs from > > > the marine > > > >he just bumped into, if he only types these (what to him are > > > >pseudo-random) 32 hex characters for both the src & dst. > > > > > > Are you describing configuring the interface, configuring the > > > src and dst in a specific datagram or specifying addresses to > > > an application? > > > >Anything that would need to be configured. IPv6LL is autoconfigured, so that > >would not need to be typed in, but if there is a directive that applications > >can't use LL, then some other address might need to be added. The point was > >that the situation calls for recognizable strings of characters, therefore > >some kind of mapping service to whatever addresses are in use. With > >LLMNR/mdns/... type of service, there is no need to type in literal > >addresses to the application, or to the stack to make sure there is > >something other than a LL there. > > But there's the rub...we don't have LLMNR/mdns/..., so we don't really have > a LL story. I'm all for incremental development like IPv6LL - but it's not > a panacea until we have a complete system that lets me use my laptop in > exactly the same way on a LL-only network as on the global Internet. > > - Ralph > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 05:33:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TCXAU3029694; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TCXAnk029693; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TCX6U3029680 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TCU9Uu021232 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TCU3be004488 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:30:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7TCU2MD022802 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:30:02 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7TCU90E270834 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:30:09 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26654 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:30:01 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4F4740.D5416CB0@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:29:52 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030829094325.01f4c0b0@kahuna.telstra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Geoff, Now I understand your argument, I don't think it holds water. The fact that there is a 50% chance of a conflict somewhere inside a set of a million enterprises doesn't bother me in the least. If an enterprise has direct interconnection to 2**8 other enterprises, in a space of 2**40 random numbers, that enterprise is looking at a 2**-32 chance of hitting a conflict and being forced to renumber. That's acceptable. Even if an enterprise expects direct interconnecion to 2**20 other enterprises, the chance of having to renumber is 2**-20, i.e. one in a million. That's probably acceptable. If an enterprise network manager doesn't think it's acceptable, s/he can wait until IANA has set up the centrally allocated solution, or use a PA prefix. Brian Geoff Huston wrote: > > You are correct in that the "conflicts" matters at the point that the two sites > want to interact in such a fashion that the expose their local use addresses > to each other, now or at any time in the future. > > Now if you have a random selection algorithm that truly has 2**40 bits > of entropy the chances of any two identified random draws from > this space having a clash remains 1 / (2**40), but if you take the total > pool of such randomly drawn numbers and ask "how big does the pool > need to get to lift the change of a clash within the pool above 0.5?", > then the pool size is 1.24 million. If the expectation that this address > format is to be used extensively for local connectivity independently of > upstream connectivity then I would contend that uniqueness is essential, > and the local selection methodology should not be proposed, as its > uniqueness properties are flawed. > > So I suppose I am saying that this is "nowhere near unique", and that if > the entire idea > of this concept is to avoid the use of reused private RFC1918-styled addresses > and the associated NAT functionality, then this local selection algorithm > should > not be included in this proposal. > > regards, > > Geoff > > At 10:03 AM 28/08/2003 -0400, Hans Kruse wrote: > >But don't "conflicts" matter only for separate sites that later decide to > >connect to each other using these addresses? > > > >In that context 1 out of 1.24 million seems small. That does not mean we > >should not include that math, just that the conclusion is valid, > >especially for an address type that is designed to be near-unique as > >opposed to guaranteed unique. > > > >--On Thursday, August 28, 2003 08:14 +1000 Geoff Huston > >wrote: > > > >>The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > >>contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. > > > > > > > >Hans Kruse, Associate Professor > >J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management > >Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science > >Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 > >740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 06:26:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TDQlU3001176; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TDQkJo001172; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TDQhU3001163 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TDNkUu009486 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coffee.rawdofmt.org (adsl-66-120-207-101.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [66.120.207.101]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TDNeP8021894 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rawdofmt.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coffee.rawdofmt.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFFE3DCD27 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:25:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing From: Christian Hopps To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4F70CD86-DA24-11D7-B73D-00039303E9E2@rawdofmt.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for > A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > alternative > solution available. This would mean that the working group should > treat > the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > alternative a replacement would not happen. Thanks, Chris. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 07:17:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEHoU3002780; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TEHocq002779; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEHkU3002772 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TEEnV7010968 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmail.caspian.com (mr200a.caspiannetworks.com [63.108.173.139]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TEEiOq028733 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innovationslab.net ([172.17.55.3]) by cmail.caspian.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.4-GA) with ESMTP id AHZ03599; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F4F5FD0.6060807@innovationslab.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:14:40 -0400 From: Brian Haberman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipv6mib@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Updated IP Forwarding MIB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk All, I have just submitted an update to the IP Forwarding MIB that addresses all the last call comments. If you cannot wait for the I-D editor announcement, a copy is availale at http://www.innovationslab.net/~brian/drafts/fwdmib.txt. Regards, Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 07:24:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEOrU3002998; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TEOrfm002994; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEOlU3002978 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TELoV7013033 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avenir1.avenir.net ([205.242.250.76]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TELibe026170 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:21:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cijuobaby (203.200.150.2 [203.200.150.2]) by avenir1.avenir.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id PPW9YSFR; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:17:41 -0400 Message-ID: <008101c36e39$159826b0$d600000a@cijuobaby> Reply-To: "C i j u O. B a b y" From: "C i j u O. B a b y" To: Subject: Scope_Id and Connect Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:53:07 +0530 Organization: Avenir MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36E67.2A856D20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36E67.2A856D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, I am involved in the development of an application with IPv6 protocol support . I encounterd a problem which i will explain . Suppose i want to connect to a Server Socket through the interface index X, i have to use the Scope_Id (member of struct sockaddr_in6)as = X-1. Again when i have to send a datagram packet through the same interface i must use the scope_id X . Here X is the index that i got from the call RTNETLINK. My machine is Redhat 7.2 with only one network interface card. Please help me with your replies . Am I wrong somewhere .Also please respond if my query is not clear . Regards Ciju O. Baby ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36E67.2A856D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,

        I am = involved=20 in the development of an application with IPv6
protocol support . I=20 encounterd a problem which i will explain = .



   =20 Suppose  i want to connect to a Server Socket through the=20 interface
index X, i have to use the Scope_Id (member of struct=20 sockaddr_in6)as  X-1.
Again when i have to send a datagram = packet=20 through the same interface i
must use the scope_id X .
Here X is = the index=20 that i got from the call RTNETLINK.

    My machine = is=20 Redhat 7.2 with only one network interface = card.

   =20 Please help me with your replies . Am I wrong somewhere .Also = please
respond=20 if my query is not clear .


Regards
Ciju O.=20 Baby

 
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C36E67.2A856D20-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 07:37:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEbAU3003467; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TEbAEG003464; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEb7U3003457 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TEY9V7017556 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu (basie.internet2.edu [207.75.164.22]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TEY4qe010013 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:34:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0E57B4CC; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270927B4B7; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:34:03 -0400 (EDT) To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> From: stanislav shalunov Date: 29 Aug 2003 10:34:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: <87y8xcwn1i.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I prefer option A. (Having a local addressing scheme is preferred, but deprecation of SL should go forward independently.) -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed upside down. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 07:45:46 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEjkU3003738; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TEjkGR003737; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEjhU3003730 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TEgjUu005447 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TEgdEn021295 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:42:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7TEgGEV003027; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:42:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7TEgG3T082812; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:42:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7TEgF91082809; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:42:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Pekka Savola cc: Geoff Huston , , , Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030829081409.G81609-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka: I am distressed. Please see inline for specifics. AEB On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Pekka Savola wrote: > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Geoff Huston wrote: > [...] > > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. > > I consider this a bug. Actually, the number of draws should be smaller, > e.g. 1000, to avoid having local addresses misused where they should not. > > That way, prople wouldn't get delusions to e.g. route such addresses in > the Internet. 1.24 million draws until a probable conflict could still > sound attractive. > Hmmm. Was not one of the stated benefits of unique-local the uniqueness (or near-uniqueness) of the address allocations generated by proposed allocation algorithm? A suggestion to _deliberately_ increase the probability of allocation conflict strikes me as a fundamental conceptual change to the proposal. With a change of this magnitude, it seems to me that the resulting draft would be so greatly at variance with the conceptual basis of the Hinden original that a new, wholly independent proposal would be in order, leaving the unique-local draft to stand or fall of its own merit. Additionally, such a suggestion, if implemented, would effectively prohibit one of the chief *legitimate* uses of GUPI address address allocations: routing between private networks on private (or VPN) links under bilateral agreements between the end networks. Private routing arrangements are considered highly desirable to enterprise network operators (in fact, most enterprise network managers will tell you, with quite considerable warmth, that such arrangements are indispensible); decreased probability of uniqueness in allocations would, IMHO, leave the unique-local proposal fatally flawed. If we wish to discourage ubiquity in deployment of NAT6, perhaps we should look to notions other than this. Furthermore, we can discourage global routing of unique-local prefixes by inserting into the unique-local draft more explicit language prohibiting propagation of such prefixes into the global routing tables. Some suggested text (in rough form) is given here: * Manufacturers of routers MUST include in router code a routing black hole for the entire unique-local address block. Router manufacturers MUST ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or otherwise overridden in toto; however, manufacturers MAY provide a configuration facility to "punch through" the black hole for user-specified prefixes within the unique-local block. Router manufacturers SHOULD include in user documentation language to the effect that routing of unique-local prefixes beyond site boundaries contravenes IETF recommendations, and that routing of unique-local prefixes may be configured *only* where the user can ensure that such routes will not be propagated into third-party routing tables except by prior agreement between private networks, and that under no circumstances will such routes be propagated into public network routing tables. * Service Providers MUST configure a black hole for the entire unique-local address block on all links which carry public-network traffic. Service Providers SHOULD configure a black hole for the entire unique-local address block at all AS boundary points. I might suggest that similar language be added to the appropriate router-requirements documents when (or if) an RFC on this matter is finally published. The private-link ox is largely property of the enterprise network managers; we are unlikely to greatly endear ourselves to the enterprise network folks if we gore that ox, even inadvertently, in our crusades to extirpate NAT and prevent the public routing of local address spaces. I think it unwise to provoke these folks still further. In summary: 1) the suggestion to make unique-local address allocations considerably less than unique would, if incorporated into the extant draft, fundamentally alter the concepts upon which the original Hinden proposal appears to have been crafted; if such a suggestion is to be considered, a more appropriate means might be a new individual draft 2) an allocation scheme for unique-local prefixes which produces a probability of collision above, say, one in several million, will likely render unique-local addresses of very limited utility for one (perhaps more than one) of the legitimate uses of such address space; specifically, interconnection of private (frequently enterprise) networks over private links 3) increased rate of conflict in allocation of prefixes may tend to encourage, rather than elimiate, use of NAT6 4) we can, IMO, discourage global routing of unique-local prefixes by means other than increasing the probability of address conflicts: one such means (perhaps partial) is suggested above Please disabuse me of any errant notions in the suggestions above. ;-) Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 07:51:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEpaU3004040; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TEpauh004038; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TEpXU3004031 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TEmaV7022498 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (oak.cats.ohiou.edu [132.235.8.44]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TEmCWN010864 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:48:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hkruse2003a (dhcp-232-096.cns.ohiou.edu [132.235.232.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by oak2a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.8-OU/8.12.8-OU) with ESMTP id h7TEEhsj1313022 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:14:34 -0400 From: Hans Kruse To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Message-ID: <316785703.1062152074@hkruse2003a> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030829094325.01f4c0b0@kahuna.telstra.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030829094325.01f4c0b0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I am still not sure I agree with the conclusion. If I execute an address draw, and then decide to connect to 5 other networks, what is the probability of a conflict? It greater than 1/(2**40), but much, much smaller than 0.5; the "0.5" problem arises only if someone wants to connect 1.24 million networks. The more important point to me, however, is that the locally generated random prefix is only one of two mechanisms. If I were planning to interconnect a bunch of locally addressed networks, I would get registry-assigned local prefixes anyway -- which are designed to be globally unique. For a nomadic network using locals internally only, the random selection should be fine, even if you interconnect with a small number of other networks on occasion. --On Friday, August 29, 2003 09:54 +1000 Geoff Huston wrote: > Now if you have a random selection algorithm that truly has 2**40 bits > of entropy the chances of any two identified random draws from > this space having a clash remains 1 / (2**40), but if you take the total > pool of such randomly drawn numbers and ask "how big does the pool > need to get to lift the change of a clash within the pool above 0.5?", > then the pool size is 1.24 million. If the expectation that this address > format is to be used extensively for local connectivity independently of > upstream connectivity then I would contend that uniqueness is essential, > and the local selection methodology should not be proposed, as its > uniqueness properties are flawed. > > So I suppose I am saying that this is "nowhere near unique", and that if > the entire idea of this concept is to avoid the use of reused private > RFC1918-styled addresses and the associated NAT functionality, then this > local selection algorithm should not be included in this proposal. Hans Kruse, Associate Professor J. Warren McClure School of Communication Systems Management Adjunct Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Ohio University, Athens, OH, 45701 740-593-4891 voice, 740-593-4889 fax -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 08:35:51 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TFZpU3005056; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TFZppH005055; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TFZkU3005040 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TFWnUu023106 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TFWhgM024407 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03405; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308291532.LAA03405@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Forwarding Table MIB Author(s) : M. Wasserman, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2003-8-29 This document defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects related to the forwarding of Internet Protocol (IP) packets, in an IP version independent manner. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 08:49:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TFnwU3005367; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TFnwlP005366; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TFnsU3005356 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TFkvUu028349 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TFkq9D022542 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Solving the right problems ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:46:51 -0700 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Solving the right problems ... thread-index: AcNsv5e9ZJSBvLguTxu+iquUjXvpKwBhNLiQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Jeroen Massar" , "Tony Hain" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7TFnsU3005358 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Jeroen Massar wrote: > My current idea puts it at the resolver level. The > application gets the 128bits identifier, which > actuall is a IPv6 address, either given out from a > special registry or simply from an /48 that is > already assigned to you. This address can be used > for both routing and identification purposes and > can easily be assigned to hosts by using RA. Jeroen's idea is MHAP-lite; differences are that it works on the hosts not on the routers and uses DNS as the ID/LOC mapping mechanism. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 09:37:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TGbgU3006267; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TGbgG4006266; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TGbcU3006259 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TGYeUu018393 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TGYZqe015222 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:34:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 121B320660F for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19slRq-0007a7-KK for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:46:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19slEy-0006jA-2i for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:44 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03405; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200308291532.LAA03405@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Forwarding Table MIB Author(s) : M. Wasserman, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2003-8-29 This document defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects related to the forwarding of Internet Protocol (IP) packets, in an IP version independent manner. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106" --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106 Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106-- --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 09:58:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TGw8U3006979; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TGw8uH006978; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TGw4U3006971 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TGt7V7011883 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TGt2Oq019026 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:54:58 -0700 Received: from 157.54.5.25 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:03 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:01 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:00 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:54:27 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt thread-index: AcNuPbN5GVWIEb1eS/ad8KjluXgn8wADRHWw From: "Christian Huitema" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 16:54:27.0496 (UTC) FILETIME=[352A1280:01C36E4E] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7TGw4U3006972 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Geoff's initial comment included the classic birthday paradox formula, which would indeed apply if we were to use the randomly generated addresses as global site identifiers valid across the Internet. The practical consequence is that we should be extremely clear about the usage limitation: randomly assigned addresses should in no way be used as site identifiers. This should not even be left for further study, it is just wrong. The usage that is actually envisaged is more limited: an identifier that provides disambiguation in a limited environment, normally a single site, possibly a small number of sites directly linked by VPN-like relations. In that scenario, the collisions that matter are those that occur within this "working set" of connected sites. The probability of such a collision is determined by the probability of collision "x" between two identifiers (x = 2^-40 in our example) and by the size "W" of the working set. The probability that single site does not collide with any member of a working set is: P(collision in a set of size W) = 1 - (1-x)^(W-1) There will be a large number of these working sets, probably as many as there are sites -- each site will participate in average to W sets. The probability that a given site observes a collision in one of its working sets will be: P(collision in one of W sets) = 1 - (1-x)^(W*(W-1)) If we have N sites, the probability of observing one collision on the Internet will be: P(collision in N sites with W sets) = 1 - (1-x)^(N*W*(W-1)) Given x=2^-40, the number N for which this probability equals .5 varies with W as: W N 50 311070769 100 76982160 200 19148829 500 3054603 1000 762886 2000 190626 5000 30491 10000 7622 Bottom line: using the random allocation in large working sets is a bad idea. If people want to do that, they should register a unique allocation instead. One possible way to improve the situation is to have a provision for small sites, in which we use a 56 bits random number to identify a link, rather than a 40 bits random number identifying a site. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:43:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJhJU3009663; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TJhJ5l009662; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJhEU3009655 for ; 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Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx03.forces.gc.ca (mx03.forces.gc.ca [131.137.245.203]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TGYZqe015222 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:34:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by mx03.forces.gc.ca (DND-Mailer) with ESMTP id 121B320660F for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 19slRq-0007a7-KK for ietf-announce-list@asgard.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:46:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp ( Exim 4.14) id 19slEy-0006jA-2i for all-ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:44 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org ( 8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03405; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200308291532.LAA03405@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce:@smtptpa.interwan.gte.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 13515D732130209-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 16:44:50.0168 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD0CCF80:01C36E4C] X-WSS-ID: 1351739E394725-01-01 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Forwarding Table MIB Author(s) : M. Wasserman, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2003-8-29 This document defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects related to the forwarding of Internet Protocol (IP) packets, in an IP version independent manner. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106 Content-Type: message/external-body; access-type=mail-server; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106 Content-Type: message/external-body; name=draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt; access-type=anon-ftp; site=ftp.ietf.org; directory=internet-drafts Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> --MIMEStream=_1+207909_8599846814426_6129531106-- --MIMEStream=_0+101812_95144339525203_8069880134-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:43:26 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJhQU3009673; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TJhPh9009672; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJhKU3009665 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TJeNUu008578 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TJeGqe013647 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10734; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:40:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308291940.PAA10734@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Alan E. Beard" wrote: [...] |Additionally, such a suggestion, if implemented, would effectively |prohibit one of the chief *legitimate* uses of GUPI address address |allocations: routing between private networks on private (or VPN) links |under bilateral agreements between the end networks. [...] |* Manufacturers of routers MUST include in router code a routing black |hole for the entire unique-local address block. Router manufacturers MUST |ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or |otherwise overridden in toto; Please don't do this. I don't want to have to special-case all my interior routers (that could otherwise get by with simple default routes for much of the outside world--including tunnels to other GUPI address space) for each tunnel that might be available at the edge routers. This will be even more of a problem once we start to set up dynamic tunnels so that a large set of GUPI-using-sites can communicate in a cooperative overlay network. There is no way to know whether a router will be used at the edge where you *might* have some business enforcing such a black hole or deep inside where you have absolutely no business complicating my routing. |however, manufacturers MAY provide a |configuration facility to "punch through" the black hole for |user-specified prefixes within the unique-local block. But I will probably want to send the *whole* unique-local block to a tunnel router of some sort. |Router |manufacturers SHOULD include in user documentation language to the effect |that routing of unique-local prefixes beyond site boundaries contravenes |IETF recommendations, Above you said that routing between private networks was legitimate. This certainly involves routing beyond site boundaries. We need to make it clear that "beyond site boundaries" does not equate to "on the public internet". Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:49:08 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJn7U3009776; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TJn7Gk009775; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJn3U3009768 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TJk5Uu010891 for ; 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Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200308291532.LAA03405@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF-Announce:@smtpftw.interwan.gte.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0400 X-WSS-ID: 1351AA732112989-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 15:49:21.0152 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CCD4800:01C36E45] X-WSS-ID: 135172D62182971-01-01 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=NextPart Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Forwarding Table MIB Author(s) : M. Wasserman, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Pages : 34 Date : 2003-8-29 This document defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes managed objects related to the forwarding of Internet Protocol (IP) packets, in an IP version independent manner. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=OtherAccess Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --OtherAccess Content-Type: message/external-body; access-type=mail-server; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: message/external-body; name=draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt; access-type=anon-ftp; site=ftp.ietf.org; directory=internet-drafts Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-8-29113658.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:50:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJoQU3009817; 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Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:05: 52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TC5jP8004821 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05: 05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com ( d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7TC5OJ4016616; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:24 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7TC5U0E249866; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:30 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA45272; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:21 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4F4179.B079394D@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:05:13 +0200 From: "Brian E Carpenter" Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Chirayu Patel" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Alain Durand'" Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. References: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> X-WSS-ID: 13519C2A2045817-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 12:14:34.0746 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BE7C5A0:01C36E27] X-WSS-ID: 135172201838338-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for this and the other comments. So far I detect broad agreement with what the text is trying to achieve, since all the comments are about how to make it clearer. That being so, I won't respond individually, but I will stack up all these comments ready for the next draft. Brian Chirayu Patel wrote: > > > I would rather like to see some text like: > > The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: > > > > section a.b.c of RFC XXXX > > ..... > > That would be difficult. Text about Site-locals not localized. Maybe we can > rephrase the last sentence to > > "Henceforth the prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 > implementations." > > > > The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use > > > except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the > > > addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. > > > > > > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > > > routing of this prefix by default. > > > > This seems to contradict the initial sentence I have just commented on. > > RFC 3513 states - "Routers must not forward any packets with site-local source > or destination addresses outside of the site." (Note the "must") > > On further thought, we can probably reorganize the section as: > > "This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined > in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The prefix MUST NOT be > reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future > versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this > information. > > Henceforth FEC0::/10 prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new > IPv6 (for hosts as well as routers) implementations." > > I also think that we need to have a line that says something like: > > "The deprecation of IPv6 site-local unicast addresses is applicable to all the > usages as specified in RFC A, B, C, D... . Future versions of these RFC's will > remove information about site-locals". > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:52:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJqBU3009947; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TJqBFU009944; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJq5U3009934 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TJn8Uu011920 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (tpamail2.bdi.gte.com [192.76.82.136]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TJn3qe023957 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:49:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtptpa.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.66.45]) by tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7TJn1kL002156; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from USFLTTPSTCMMS01.ent.verizon.com (TPAMMS01B.interwan.gte.com [138.83.67.209]) by smtptpa.interwan.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7TJmvDU006301; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 138.83.66.45 by USFLTTPSTCMMS01.ent.verizon.com with ESMTP (SMTP Relay); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:48:52 -0400 Received: from ustxdfwh06.its.verizon.com (it.verizon.com [113.128.189.26]) by smtptpa.interwan.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7TJmpOv006140; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by ustxdfwh06.its.verizon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:48:44 -0500 thread-index: AcNt4Rq54BTrRf2aQUmYJ7CwPAXypA== Received: from smtpirv.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.34.67]) by ustxdfwh06.its.verizon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:53:27 -0500 Received: from USTXIRVHQWMMS03.ent.verizon.com ( IRVMMS03B.interwan.gte.com [138.83.34.111]) by smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7T3rR8Y001315 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:53:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 192.76.80.129 by USTXIRVHQWMMS03.ent.verizon.com with ESMTP (SMTP Relay (MMS v5.5.3)); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:53:16 -0500 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.98.34] ) by irvmail.bdi.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7T3qdW8013009 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:52:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T3lLbe019065; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:47:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ( 8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T3lEV0018313; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3ngU3020099; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com ( 8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7T3ngY7020098; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7T3ndU3020091 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49: 39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7T3khV7029258 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mordani.com (mordani.com [66.92.28.204]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T3kbNi013920 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from moon (chirayu.chirayu.org [202.142.102.54]) by mordani.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7T3WmjA021262; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:32:55 -0700 From: "Chirayu Patel" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Subject: RE: Deprecation Poll Vote. Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:19:05 +0530 Message-ID: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <7488DFFA-D97C-11D7-B5A6-00039376A6AA@sun.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7T3ndU3020092 X-WSS-ID: 135011A61677876-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 03:53:27.0871 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AA6BCF0:01C36DE1] X-WSS-ID: 135171AE981875-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I would rather like to see some text like: > The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: > > section a.b.c of RFC XXXX > ..... That would be difficult. Text about Site-locals not localized. Maybe we can rephrase the last sentence to "Henceforth the prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 implementations." > > The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use > > except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the > > addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. > > > > However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent > > routing of this prefix by default. > > This seems to contradict the initial sentence I have just commented on. RFC 3513 states - "Routers must not forward any packets with site-local source or destination addresses outside of the site." (Note the "must") On further thought, we can probably reorganize the section as: "This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. Henceforth FEC0::/10 prefix MUST be treated as an unassigned prefix by new IPv6 (for hosts as well as routers) implementations." I also think that we need to have a line that says something like: "The deprecation of IPv6 site-local unicast addresses is applicable to all the usages as specified in RFC A, B, C, D... . Future versions of these RFC's will remove information about site-locals". -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:55:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJt8U3010842; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TJt6ie010823; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0ocRK002497 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0ociZ002863 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50: 38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com ( Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:12 -0700 Received: from [17.219.196.86] ([17.219.196.86]) by scv1.apple.com ( 8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T0oKsH023593 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Joshua Graessley" Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:50:46 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.589) X-WSS-ID: 1350775F222315-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 01:14:05.0262 (UTC) FILETIME=[D6E466E0:01C36DCA] X-WSS-ID: 13517139397116-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Aug 28, 2003, at 4:25 PM, Erik Nordmark wrote: >> The conflict resolution protocol is just a way of letting the user >> know >> that a particular name is ambiguous in the domain that is currently >> reachable. One of the users will then have to pick another name and >> announce it to any other users who knew about the old name and were >> using it. Having the conlict resolution protocol remove a name or >> change >> it to something else will not remove the confusion, since the old name >> will still be lodged into the minds of the people who need it. >> >> Frankly, I don't see that having multiple intefaces makes all that >> much >> difference. > > The difference is that the names need to be unique not only on one > link, > but across all interfaces connected to the multihomed host. Do they really? If so, how do we guarantee this? As you mentioned, some sort of conflict resolution protocol would have to allow a node straddling two networks notify nodes of conflicts. This is a very difficult problem to solve. For example, if there are two machines that are connect to the same wired network and wireless network, machine A may see responses from machine B on the wireless network as conflicting with the responses on the wired network from machine B. Machine A has no way to know that the responses are both from the exact same machine so this is perfectly valid. > How would you expect conflict resolution to handle that? I don't think this is something we can solve. I also don't think it is something particularly important to solve. There are a number of simple solutions that could work well. For example, if it was possible to append a name with the interface the query should be sent on (i.e. laptop%en0), this would give someone the ability to specify which "laptop" they were referring to in the case that just specifying laptop would not be enough. Specifying the name alone will often work in 99% of cases. Adding additional functionality to allow this to work for the additional 1% of the cases might be worthwhile. If requiring the protocol perfectly handle that last 1% (the edge cases) results in an impossible task, is it really worth throwing out the protocol that works for 99% of the cases just because we can't perfectly solve the edge case? -josh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:55:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJtBU3010861; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7T1Qrbe014106 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix ) with ESMTP id 6A6B91419E for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21946-11; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8778713FE3; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:26:52 -0400 From: "Keith Moore" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: naming and LL in ad hoc networks, The Poll, draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00 (digest) Message-ID: <20030828212652.277ca60f.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu X-WSS-ID: 1350726D873820-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 01:35:38.0824 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9EA4C80:01C36DCD] X-WSS-ID: 13517138982365-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk in this issue: On naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks On use of LL in non-routed ad-hoc networks On the Poll On the text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks: Erik is correct to point out the issues associated with naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks if any of the hosts have multiple interfaces. This is similar to a problem that exists in v4LL if any of the hosts have multiple interfaces - multiple hosts can choose the same v4LL address and be reachable by the same host, and a host with multiple interfaces can be forced to choose a new address (thus breaking open connections) if there is a conflict on any of those interfaces. Unlike v4LL, in v6 we generally expect most LL addresses to be globally unique (modulo bugs in the hardware) so address collisions "shouldn't happen". What this probably means is that it's a bad idea to try to make lookup of local names in an ad hoc network look too much like DNS - the ad hoc network has additional failure modes (e.g. name collisions) that the DNS design (and the design of apps using DNS) never anticipated. What you really need is a way to do searches where the client's actual location in the net can be an implicit part of the query. For instance, find the nearby printers, projectors, etc. Of course, you need a separate API for this, and you can't expect apps that are only aware of DNS to make good use of this facility. However that doesn't mean you can't implement lookup of DNS names on an ad hoc network. But the names have to be (a) globally unique and (b) assigned to the host, meaning the host has to be _authoritative_ for its DNS records - i.e. the owner of the parent zone has delegated authority to that host to maintain records for its name. (this isn't a matter of network protocol, it's a matter of deciding who is going to maintain what part of the DNS name tree). If the host is sometimes attached to a "managed" network with real DNS, and its name is advertised via DNS, it's also necessary that the host update the network-accessible servers for its domain (if there are any), whenever it has the chance, to keep them consistent with the RRs it is providing via local lookup. This could employ dynamic update, or zone transfer, whatever. This is mostly useful for supporting name lookup for local hosts when the local net is partitioned from the DNS, and for hosts that migrate (e.g. laptops) to be able to keep their DNS names as they move from one location to another. I don't offhand see how it's useful to appliances. So you need two distinct lookup services on ad hoc networks: - lookup/search of "local" devices - lookup of DNS names on disconnected networks or networks with local scope and offhand I don't think you can reasonably implement either service in terms of the other one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On use of LL in non-routed ad-hoc networks: (continuing from the last topic...) However I still take issue with this statement by Erik: > For a single ad-hoc link I can see LLMNR work as a naming protocol > (and link-locals or any other IP address can be used - doesn't matter > since all IP addresses must either be local to the link or be > unreachable). That's not a valid assumption for several reasons: One is that some apps will need to filter link locals in order to operate correctly under normal conditions, but this behavior won't work for the single ad-hoc link Erik describes - so the app is required to have an option that says "use link locals", which is a pain. Another is that a single-link network might suddenly change to a routed network - these things *are* ad hoc, after all - in which cases the LL address suddenly become very dysfunctional and the link needs to renumber. It is better to avoid that case entirely. Finally, any apps that involve a host with multiple interfaces and attached to multiple networks may be exposed to addresses without being able to know which network the address belongs on. Yes, if the app gets the address via doing LLMNR queries on each link then it can determine which interface to use based on which link the answer came from. But this doesn't help if the app does address referrals, and because scopes don't have names, the app can't include the name of the scope in the referral. It makes far more sense for each link in an ad hoc network to elect its own randomly-generated, probably-unique, prefix. That solves the whole problem of needing to keep up with scope ids in a much more general fashion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the Poll: Have you ever taken one of those multiple choice tests where a lot of the questions have no correct answers (and there is no "none of the above" choice)? A lot of the questions put to this group feel like that, including this one. I don't think the results of the poll can be meaningful because questions B and C are meaningless. If Site-Local doesn't solve "a" problem, and if the problems that Site-Local is supposed to address aren't either well-defined or agreed to, how can there be "an" alternative solution? How will we ever know if these criteria are met and it's okay to deprecate site-locals? I don't see consensus that site-locals solve any real problems. This is a recipe for stalling indefinitely when we need to be making forward progress. It would make far more sense to ask "what things do we need to agree on before we can announce that we're deprecating site-locals?" (IMHO: we need to agree to define GUPIs and PUPIs, and that's it) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt here's (in essence) what I think the relevant section should say: IETF has determined that site-locals are, overall, a highly undesirable feature which are likely to cause harm if widely deployed. Therefore use of IPv6 site-local addresses is formally deprecated existing and future protocols. In particular: - All existing IETF protocols that make special use of site-locals (e.g. address selection) will be revised to discourage or eschew use of site-locals. - Future IETF protocols will not make special use of site-local addresses; such protocols may specifically discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses. - No future IETF protocols will support the routing or provisioning of site-local addresses within networks. - All existing IETF protocols that support routing or provisioning of site-local addresses will be revised to remove such support. Such protocols may be revised to specifically discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses on networks. - Application vendors and protocol authors SHOULD NOT attempt to make special use of site-local addresses in new products, and they SHOULD NOT make any assumptions about the properties (security or otherwise) of site-local addresses if they are encountered in operation. Such applications MAY discourage or eschew use of site-locals. - Existing applications which make special use of site-local addresses SHOULD be modified to not do so. In order to ease transitions for sites and applications that are already using site-local addresses, the revised versions of such applications MAY have a compatibility mode which causes the application to treat site-local addresses as in earlier versions. However, it MUST be possible to disable this mode, and the default setting SHOULD be to not treat site-locals specially. - Routers, firewalls, proxies, and other intermediaries SHOULD NOT support special treatment of site-local addresses. Such devices MAY discourage or eschew use of site-local addresses. - Existing router, firewall, proxy and other intermediary products which treat site-locals specially SHOULD be modified to not do so. Such devices, after modification, MAY have a compatibility mode which enables the deprecated behavior. It MUST be possible to disable this compatibility mode, and the default behavior SHOULD be to disable it. - The addressing architecture [RFC3513] will be revised to classify the FEC0::/10 prefix as "reserved - do not use". This prefix will be available for reassignment by a future IETF standards action. - The specific changes to protocols and specifications to deprecate site-local will be worked out by the groups maintaining the relevant documents as those documents are revised, subject to the following criteria: - the intent is to discontinue protocol support for site-local - site-local use may be discouraged or prevented if operationally necessary - applications and networks using site-local will be encouraged to transition away from site-local - pre-existing use of site-local by applications and within networks may still be permitted for a time in order to avoid imposing abrupt transitions on those users --- That was a lot of text, and I'm not happy with the wording yet, but I don't have time to work it all out right now. The main ideas are: - state broad _intent_ to deprecate site-locals and what this means in general terms for several classes of things (how we intend to change existing ietf protocols, intentions for future IETF protocols, what existing networks and existing apps should do) - don't try to write blanket text that covers exactly what this means in every case - leave the specifics for when the relevant documents are revised - upper-case keywords (MUST,etc) apply to implementations and deployments, not to future IETF standards actions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 12:56:02 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TJu1U3011177; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SMr2NM025284 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7SMsubO030845; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:56 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi ( 8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7SMstZv030844; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:55 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks From: "Mika Liljeberg" To: "Erik Nordmark" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1062111295.9717.328.camel@hades> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:54:55 +0300 X-WSS-ID: 1350564E208522-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 23:01:39.0652 (UTC) FILETIME=[56F08840:01C36DB8] X-WSS-ID: 1351715D982527-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 00:28, Erik Nordmark wrote: > But when multihoming enters, in particular there are nodes which have > multiple interfaces enabled at the same time, then things get more > difficult. > Imagine the multihomed node has two interfaces and there are multiple neighbors > on each of those interfaces. On interface A a node might pick the name > "laptop" and another node might pick the same name of interface B without > conflict; the lookup for duplications can't be forwarded since there is no > router between the two links. In this case, independently of what addressing > and scope-ids, a application looking up the name "laptop" will have a > non-unique name. I suppose it comes down to what one considers good enough. In practise people will have to learn to pick names that have a very good probability of being unique. Unique not only in the current situation but also in any ad-hoc situation the user might run into during the course of the day. Having to change the name of the device every time the set of neighbors changes is a pretty good way of learning that words like "laptop" are not particularly good choises. The conflict resolution protocol is just a way of letting the user know that a particular name is ambiguous in the domain that is currently reachable. One of the users will then have to pick another name and announce it to any other users who knew about the old name and were using it. Having the conlict resolution protocol remove a name or change it to something else will not remove the confusion, since the old name will still be lodged into the minds of the people who need it. Frankly, I don't see that having multiple intefaces makes all that much difference. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:13:47 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKDkU3018627; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKBtAd017945; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmail.caspian.com (mr200a.caspiannetworks.com [63.108.173.139]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SCE7NM013267 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:14: 07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from innovationslab.net ([172.17.55.3]) by cmail.caspian.com ( Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.4-GA) with ESMTP id AHY02641; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F4DF202.7040601@innovationslab.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:13:54 -0400 From: "Brian Haberman" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Geoff Huston" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-WSS-ID: 135329841498704-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 12:31:20.0919 (UTC) FILETIME=[4937D670:01C36D60] X-WSS-ID: 13516D271842615-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Geoff, Geoff Huston wrote: > I see that the local use address draft has been revised and published > as a WG > document. > > In section 3.2.2 of the draft, it notes that, in reference to Locally > Assigned Global IDs that "the likelihood of conflict is small. " > > I had noted in draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt that the > likelihood of conflict is given by the formula: > > P = 1 - ((n!) / ((n**d)(n-d)!)) > > where n = 2**40 and d is the number of random 'draws' from the pool. > > The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd > contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. My disagreement with this calculation is two-fold. The first issue I have is that these addresses are not meant to be routed globally, so there is an additional variable that needs to be considered when calculating P for collisions. That is, the P above needs to take into account the probability that two networks trying to use the same prefix are connected. My second issue is with the formula itself. RFC 1889 uses an MD5 hash for calculating its SSRC Identifier (a 32-bit number). That document states: the probability that two sources independently pick the same value can be approximated for large N [20] as 1 - exp(-N**2 / 2**(L+1)). For N=1000, the probability is roughly 10**-4. N represents the number sources (number of entities making a random selection) and L is the length of the identifier. I see this formula being more representative of the probability of collision. Regards, Brian H. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:20:09 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKK7U3021429; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKK6je021416; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:05:43 -0500 (CDT) Importance: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.21]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S9o2kH023830; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:50:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ( 8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S9ntVB006970; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9qSU3000540; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com ( 8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S9qSYM000539; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S9qPU3000532 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:52: 25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S9nSV7006836 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S9jnkH020914 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03: 45:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com ( d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.196]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7S9jlYG082568 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:47 +0200 Received: from ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.140]) by d12relay02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h7S9js6l055286 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:54 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (dhcp22-49.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.22.49]) by ochsehorn.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21828 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3F4DCF42.8BC292DC@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:45:38 +0200 From: "Brian E Carpenter" Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3F4D40E9.8060303@eng.monash.edu.au> X-WSS-ID: 13530B9D1486805-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 10:06:20.0309 (UTC) FILETIME=[07401C50:01C36D4C] X-WSS-ID: 13516BF42191999-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The deprecation text in draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-site-local-00.txt was very carefully drafted after observing the mailing list debate, including the earlier poll reponses. While I don't want to complicate the discussion further, I would like to suggest that people read Section 4 of the draft very closely, before making their choice. To save you some bother, here is that section in its entirety, with a silly typo corrected: 4 Deprecation This document formally deprecates the IPv6 site-local unicast prefix defined in [RFC3513], i.e. 1111111011 binary or FEC0::/10. The special behavior of this prefix MUST no longer be supported in new implementations. The prefix MUST NOT be reassigned for other use except by a future IETF standards action. Future versions of the addressing architecture [RFC3513] will include this information. However, router implementations SHOULD be configured to prevent routing of this prefix by default. Existing implementations and deployments MAY continue to use this prefix. Brian Greg Daley wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > I know I'm late, but I vote for B. > > Greg Daley > > Bob Hinden wrote: > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August > > are: > > > > Preference A 21 > > Preference B 13 > > Preference C 7 > > ------ > > Total 41 > > > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation > > or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You > > can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan > > to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > > got them correctly) in a few weeks. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >> From: Bob Hinden > >> Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >> Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >> > >> [IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >> > >> I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >> site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working > >> group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly > >> relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > >> deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how > >> to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this > >> issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. > >> > >> We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >> , a specific alternative > >> to site-local addresses draft > >> (accepted as a working > >> group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing > >> why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal > >> deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna > >> IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >> normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >> > >> I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working > >> group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > >> maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. > >> Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an > >> alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is > >> available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > >> alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I > >> think the working group has made it clear that this is not a > >> reasonable alternative. > >> > >> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. > >> I think the choices are: > >> > >> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an > >> alternative solution available. This would mean that the working > >> group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution > >> documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was > >> no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. > >> > >> B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >> solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at > >> the same time and making them include normative references to each > >> other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would > >> result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > >> an alternative. > >> > >> C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >> standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not > >> advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence > >> that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > >> Site-Local addresses. > >> > >> Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >> publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >> > >> Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >> alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. > >> I hope that many of you will respond. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Bob > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM NEW ADDRESS PLEASE UPDATE ADDRESS BOOK -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:24:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKOGU3023137; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:45:41 -0400 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14] ) by ftwmail.bdi.gte.com (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h7S6jeqG013047 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:45:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S6c1Uk010985; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ( 8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S6btV0005006; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6eSU3026649; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com ( 8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7S6eSa6026648; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7S6eOU3026639 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:40: 24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S6bSV7006934 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:37: 28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fsnt.future.futsoft.com ([203.197.140.35]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S6avEJ002580 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kailash1.future.futsoft.com (unverified [203.197.140.36]) by fsnt.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.3.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:10:42 +0530 Received: from kamarajp (kamarajp.future.futsoft.com [10.6.4.103]) by kailash1.future.futsoft.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h7S6WRl23819 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:02:27 +0530 Reply-to: kamarajp@future.futsoft.com From: "Kamaraj P" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: IPv6 Hop limit Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:07:18 +0530 Message-ID: <001c01c36d2e$d4b598e0$6704060a@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-WSS-ID: 13537A9F1682627-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 06:45:48.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[03E171B0:01C36D30] X-WSS-ID: 13516A191106617-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Whether I should process, If the IPv6 packet contains hop limit field is not equal to 255 and link Local as a destination address.(one of my link local Addr) Am I missing something ? Thanks Regards Kamaraj *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the contents of this message. FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:25:11 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKP9U3023465; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S6FBWc026660 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S6F7416543 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15: 07 +0300 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:07 +0300 Received: from esebe023.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.115]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:06 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:15:06 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll thread-index: AcNtKvynrBC7t0gOQf2eUJtzzi9D/gAAEoOg From: john.loughney@nokia.com To: hinden@iprg.nokia.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mrw@windriver.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 06:15:06.0967 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA181E70:01C36D2B] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S6IDU3026115 X-WSS-ID: 13537FEE210771-01-01 X-WSS-ID: 13516A48988437-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, I prefer B. I think there is interest and possible need for an alternate solution and it seems reasonable to depreciate site-locals (which are already supported to some extent in some running code) after we have a replacement for them. I fear that if we do not do this, there may be motivation for people to start to deploy something which is targeted as a replacement for site-locals but has no IETF documentation behind it. thanks, John > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:25:50 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKPnU3023683; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKPmx1023675; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:00: 47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S5voUu021931 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:57: 50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S5vhEJ011775 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7S5xFbO027758; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:15 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi ( 8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7S5xDSL027757; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:13 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll From: "Mika Liljeberg" To: "Bob Hinden" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "Margaret Wasserman" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: <1062050353.9714.275.camel@hades> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:59:13 +0300 X-WSS-ID: 13534429626435-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 06:05:32.0372 (UTC) FILETIME=[639BE140:01C36D2A] X-WSS-ID: 13516A691106924-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote for B or C. MikaL On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 01:26, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:26:17 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKQBUB023796; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:29:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.11.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SBMeEJ020710; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ( 8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SBMYVB003845; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SBP1U3002514; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com ( 8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7SBP1Dm002513; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7SBOwU3002506 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:24: 58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7SBM2V7003636 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:22: 02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e33.co.us.ibm.com (e33.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.131]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7SBLvEJ020392 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e33.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7SBLhhu323816; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:21:43 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7SBLgxo321990; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:21:42 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7SBJdr16816; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:19:47 -0400 Message-ID: <200308281119.h7SBJdr16816@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: john.loughney@nokia.com cc: itojun@itojun.org, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: Message from john.loughney@nokia.com of "Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:53:21 +0300." Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:19:39 -0400 From: "Thomas Narten" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 1353384D1483530-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 11:30:25.0247 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6448EF0:01C36D57] X-WSS-ID: 13516C612191306-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > My understanding was that we didn't want the Node Requirements document > be the bucket where we toss all of the fixes needed to various RFCs, > etc. FWIW, I think this is right approach. > I assume that if addrconf needs updating, it should be done there, OK. At least this previous co-author is shamed into agreeing that addr-conf document should be revved. First step is a list of items that need fixing. I believe I have a start of a list squirreled away somewhere. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:39:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKdwU3029224; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKdoJ1029163; 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charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Thomas, > itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) writes: > > > there was a big discussion in the recent IETF meeting > (don't remember > > which one) and the consensus was to drop "you can omit DAD for > > addresses with same IID" part from the DAD, IIRC (need to check > > minutes). if my memory is corret, my guess is that the node > > requirement is more up-to-date on this issue. > > I too seem to recall a discussion or two on this topic, even before > vienna. But > > 1) should node-requirements be the document that updates this, or > should addrconf be updated? > > 2) If the former, the words in the current document aren't explicit > enough. Especially given the following wording in > node-requirements: > > > This document tries to avoid discussion of protocol details, and > > references RFCs for this purpose. In case of any conflicting > > text, this document takes less precedence than the normative > > RFCs, unless additional clarifying text is included in this > > document. My understanding was that we didn't want the Node Requirements document be the bucket where we toss all of the fixes needed to various RFCs, etc. I assume that if addrconf needs updating, it should be done there, however, I could put a note in the Node Req document. I'm not dogmatic, however, about this point - if people feel that Node Req is the right place, then feel free to suggest text. thanks, John -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:40:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKeJU3029369; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:13: 40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7S1AiUu023980 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.130]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7S1AdWc022812 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7S1ATUj289162; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:10:29 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7S1ASxo364436; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:10:28 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7S18Sq12221; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:08:34 -0400 Message-ID: <200308280108.h7S18Sq12221@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: itojun@itojun.org cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt In-Reply-To: Message from itojun@itojun.org of "Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:48:23 +0900." <20030827214823.85B3E91@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:08:27 -0400 From: "Thomas Narten" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 13538724562213-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 01:19:49.0325 (UTC) FILETIME=[798E7FD0:01C36D02] X-WSS-ID: 1351679B405371-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) writes: > there was a big discussion in the recent IETF meeting (don't remember > which one) and the consensus was to drop "you can omit DAD for > addresses with same IID" part from the DAD, IIRC (need to check > minutes). if my memory is corret, my guess is that the node > requirement is more up-to-date on this issue. I too seem to recall a discussion or two on this topic, even before vienna. But 1) should node-requirements be the document that updates this, or should addrconf be updated? 2) If the former, the words in the current document aren't explicit enough. Especially given the following wording in node-requirements: > This document tries to avoid discussion of protocol details, and > references RFCs for this purpose. In case of any conflicting > text, this document takes less precedence than the normative > RFCs, unless additional clarifying text is included in this > document. Thomas -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:41:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKfFU3029732; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKbFhv028007; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h7S7qaB23333 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:36 +0300 Received: from esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.45]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:36 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:52:35 +0300 Message-ID: <245DBCAEEC4F074CB77B3F984FF9834F019076AB@esebe005.ntc.nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll thread-index: AcNtKvyNNRBhnJOTRhGBVPBs/e8lzQADftsQ From: juha.wiljakka@nokia.com To: hinden@iprg.nokia.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mrw@windriver.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 07:52:36.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[587482E0:01C36D39] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S7tfU3027780 X-WSS-ID: 135367A2635838-01-01 X-WSS-ID: 13516A8463090-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Bob! My preference is B. C also is ok for me. Cheers, -Juha W.- On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 01:26, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:41:34 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKfWU3029832; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKfNKV029779; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:58: 17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNtKV7021376 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ALPHA8.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha8.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.8]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNtENM020806 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:55: 14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost ([130.194.13.84]) by vaxh.its.monash.edu.au ( PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KZZO53TNP68WW46Y@vaxh.its.monash.edu.au> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 Received: from blammo.its.monash.edu.au (localhost.its.monash.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D45339C004; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by blammo.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC382DC002; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:18 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:38:17 +1000 From: "Greg Daley" Subject: Deprecation Poll Vote. To: "Bob Hinden" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "Margaret Wasserman" Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-ID: <3F4D40E9.8060303@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-WSS-ID: 1353992C1632215-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 00:02:54.0950 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB2CC060:01C36CF7] X-WSS-ID: 135167121847590-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, I know I'm late, but I vote for B. Greg Daley Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August > are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation > or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You > can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan > to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > >> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >> From: Bob Hinden >> Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >> Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com >> >> [IPv6 working group chair hat on] >> >> I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >> site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working >> group on how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly >> relate to the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to >> deprecate the usage site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how >> to proceed. I think it is very important that we move forward on this >> issue and not rehash what has happened in the past. >> >> We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >> , a specific alternative >> to site-local addresses draft >> (accepted as a working >> group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have a draft describing >> why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing the formal >> deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the Vienna >> IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >> normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. >> >> I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working >> group should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their >> maturity in the current specifications and use in deployed products. >> Specifically should they be deprecated independently from having an >> alternative solution available, at the same time an alternative is >> available, or sometime after an alternative is available. A forth >> alternative is to not replace site-local addresses in any form, but I >> think the working group has made it clear that this is not a >> reasonable alternative. >> >> I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. >> I think the choices are: >> >> A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an >> alternative solution available. This would mean that the working >> group should treat the deprecation, and requirements and solution >> documents outlined above independently from each other. If there was >> no consensus on an alternative a replacement would not happen. >> >> B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >> solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at >> the same time and making them include normative references to each >> other to insure that they were published at the same time. This would >> result in the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on >> an alternative. >> >> C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >> standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not >> advancing a deprecation document until there was operational evidence >> that the alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over >> Site-Local addresses. >> >> Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >> publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. >> >> Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >> alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. >> I hope that many of you will respond. >> >> Thanks, >> Bob > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:43:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKheU3000635; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31: 55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RMSsUu018168 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RMSmNM018739 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:28: 48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com ( 8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7RMSln19726; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:47 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308272228> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.9.199, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpddT4eYp; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:28:45 PDT Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:26:59 -0700 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: "Bob Hinden" Subject: Current Results from Poll cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, "Margaret Wasserman" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 1353ED441532121-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 22:38:11.0075 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4F2FD30:01C36CEB] X-WSS-ID: 135166D2991104-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 13:45:42 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKjfU3001402; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKic8Y000987; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:34: 48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RLVqUu022350 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:31: 52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.133]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RLVkUk003603 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.10]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h7RLVks5407846 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:31: 46 -0400 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu ([9.65.201.255]) by westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h7RLVixo342714 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:31: 45 -0600 Received: from cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (narten@localhost) by cichlid.adsl.duke.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h7RLTfM08869 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:29:51 -0400 Message-ID: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-05.txt Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:29:40 -0400 From: "Thomas Narten" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 1353FA9A1607057-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 21:39:36.0966 (UTC) FILETIME=[B6608260:01C36CE3] X-WSS-ID: 135165811111413-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The WG has asked this be published as an Informational document. Here are my review comments. I assume some discussion and a revised ID will be needed before I forward the document to the IESG as a whole. Note: some of these points may best be responded to by starting a separate thread, so folk can easily follow individual topics of interest. Thomas substantative (more or less...): General comment. There are places in the document where it is not immediately clear whether something is required to be implemented or not. Sometimes the wording is just "support", and in the context of the wording, this may depend on deployment considerations. I would except that the purpose of this document is to make it clear what needs to implemented. I mention some specific cases below, but may not have caught them all... It might be good to scan the document for "support" and check that the intent is clear. > Nodes MUST always be able to receive fragment headers. However, if it > does not implement path MTU discovery it may not need to send > fragment headers. However, nodes that do not implement transmission > of fragment headers need to impose a limitation to the payload size > of layer 4 protocols. This would seem inconsistent with the following wording in RFC 2460: In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280. In that case, the IPv6 node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than 1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments. Note that this means the payload may have to be reduced to 1232 octets (1280 minus 40 for the IPv6 header and 8 for the Fragment header), and smaller still if additional extension headers are used. > Router Discovery is how hosts locate routers that reside on an > attached link. Router Discovery MUST be supported for > implementations. However, an implementation MAY support disabling > this function. Why the MAY above? If there are reasons to allow this, it would be good to give some examples of the WG's thinking for calling out such an exception. Also, this is a change to 2461 I assume? > Prefix Discovery is how hosts discover the set of address prefixes > that define which destinations are on-link for an attached link. > Prefix discovery MUST be supported for implementations. However, the > implementation MAY support the option of disabling this function. same comment with regards to MAY. And also, am I right to assume that disabling this function would need to be done on a per-interface basis (in which case the current text isn't explicit enough)? I.e, is this related to some 3G type deployment? > Duplicate Address Detection MUST be supported (RFC2462 section 5.4 > specifies DAD MUST take place on all unicast addresses). This reference to 2462 section 5.4 is a tad misleading. The relevant paragraph in 2462 says: > 5.4. Duplicate Address Detection > > Duplicate Address Detection is performed on unicast addresses prior > to assigning them to an interface whose DupAddrDetectTransmits > variable is greater than zero. Duplicate Address Detection MUST take > place on all unicast addresses, regardless of whether they are > obtained through stateful, stateless or manual configuration, with > the exception of the following cases: Note that one of the exception cases is stateless addr conf when configuring multiple addresses using the same IID. Is node-requirments trying to override this exception? If so, it should be explicit about it. Otherwise, I'm not sure why the above sentence is included in node-requirements. > 4.5.4 Default Address Selection for IPv6 - RFC3484 > > Default Address Selection for IPv6 [RFC-3484] SHOULD be supported, if > a node has more than one IPv6 address per interface or a node has > more that one IPv6 interface (physical or logical) configured. > > If supported, the rules specified in the document MUST be > implemented. A node needs to belong to one site, however there is no > requirement that a node be able to belong to more than one site. This is really weasle worded. Is 3484 mandatory to _implement_ or not? You can't make its implementation dependent on whether there are multiple addresses, since the number of addresses a node will have is not something an implementor will know, as it's an operational issue. > DNS, as described in [RFC-1034], [RFC-1035], [RFC-1886], [RFC-3152] > and [RFC-3363] MAY be supported. Not all nodes will need to resolve > names. Note that RFC 1886 is currently being updated [RFC-1886-BIS]. 1886-bis has been approved by the IESG I believe... Also, I suspect this section really needs to talk about resolvers and resolver behavior, rather than just say DNS. Most of the server issues do not apply to generic IPv6 nodes. But almost every node will have some sort of resolver... > 5.3.1 Managed Address Configuration IMO, it doesn't make sense to talk about "implementing DHC" without being more specific. I suspect that all of this section is about the client part of DHC, not the server. It would be good to make this clear. Ditto for 5.3.2. Stateless DHCPv6 [DHCPv6-SL], a subset of DHCPv6, can be used to obtain configuration information. A node that uses stateless DHCP must have obtained its IPv6 addresses through some other mechanism, typically stateless address autoconfiguration. Does this even need mentioning? I.e, what are the real implications for clients? Do they need to implement full blown dhc (the client part)? Or do they implement some subset? (Hmm... reading the related draft, clients implement a subset... And this document has a normative reference to the other ID, so either this document needs to be more explicit about what stateless DHCPv6 is, or will have to wait on the other document.) > 6.1 Transition Mechanisms > > IPv6 nodes SHOULD use native addressing instead of transition-based > addressing (according to the algorithms defined in RFC 3484). Is this a statement about what needs to be implemented? Or is this an operational statement? (This document seems to be mostly about the former, and this statement seems odd without more context...) > Routers do not need to support route optimization or home agent > functionality. > > Routers SHOULD support the generic mobile IP requirements. I think it would be better to replace the above with something like: Routers SHOULD support the router-specific extensions defined in Section 8.3 of MIPv6 And include a normative reference to the document. > 7.2 Securing Signaling between Mobile Nodes and Home Agents > > The security mechanisms described in [MIPv6-HASEC] MUST be supported > by nodes implementing mobile node or home agent functionality > specified in Mobile IP [MIPv6]. So would presumably the applicable parts of Section 8 of the mipv6 spec. Better to cite them explicitely. > Generic Packet Tunneling [RFC-2473] MUST be supported for nodes > implementing mobile node functionality or Home Agent functionality of > Mobile IP [MIPv6]. This may not need mentioning, as it may already be covered in Section 8 of the mipv6 spec. Actually, this entire section may warrant rethinking given the existance of Section 8 in the MIPv6 spec. Section 9 begins by saying: > 9. Router-Specific Functionality > > This section defines general host considerations for IPv6 nodes that > act as routers. Currently, this section does not discuss routin- > specific requirements. an then immediately says > 9.1.1 IPv6 Router Alert Option - RFC2711 > > The Router Alert Option [RFC-2711] MUST be supported by nodes that > perform packet forwarding at the IP layer (i.e. - the node is a > router). But this seems like a "forwarding-related" requirement. When do routers send router alerts? They need to process them when they are received, e.g., as part of MLD stuff. When else are they used? > 11. Security Considerations This section seems both too detailed and not detailed enough. Too detailed in that it talks about security issues related to some (arbitrary?) protocols like ICMPv6, but not detailed enough in that it is anywhere complete and doesn't mention many other protocols that could also be included if one were to include ICMPv6. My suggestion would be to up-level here and not talk about detailed security issues of individual protocols. If you want to do that, point to the security sections in other documents. But if you do this, you'll have a hard time deciding whether to mention every document or just some. Does _this_ document itself introduce or raise any security issues not covered elsewhere? That is the question this document should focus on. The answer may be mostly no. Finally, there are an awful lot of references to IDs in the normative section. That's a problem. See defn. of normative in draft-rfc-editor-rfc2223bis-06.txt. Nits/editorial: > The goal of this document is to define the set of functionality > required for an IPv6 node; the functionality common to both hosts and > routers. Many IPv6 nodes will implement optional or additional Sentence with semi-colon doesn't parse. :-( > 3.1 Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks - RFC2464 > > Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks [RFC-2464] MUST > be supported for nodes supporting Ethernet interfaces. I don't quite like the way this (and subsequent) sentences is worded. We don't want to imply that nodes that support IPv4 over Ethernet must also support this... How about: Nodes supporting IPv6 over Ethernet interfaces MUST implement Transmission of IPv6 Packets over Ethernet Networks [RFC-2464]. same applies to remaining LL sub-sections. > IPv6 over ATM Networks [RFC2492] MUST be supported for nodes > supporting ATM interfaces. Additionally, the specification states: what does "the specification" refer to? How about saying Additionally, RFC 2492 states: > option of disabling this function. The ability to understand specific > Router Advertisement optionss is dependent on supporting the s/optionss/options/ > specification where the RA is specified. s/the RA/the particular RA option/ > Redirect functionionality SHOULD be supported. If the node is a spelling > router, Redirect functionionality MUST be supported. > Path MTU Discovery [RFC-1981] MAY be supported. It is expected that > most implementations will indeed support this, although the possible > exception cases are sufficient that the used of "SHOULD" is not > justified. The rules in RFC 2460 MUST be followed for packet > fragmentation and reassembly. Same comment applies here as mentioned earlier. > Nodes that are routers MUST be able to generate link local addresses > as described in this specification. "this specification" is ambiguious. Do you mean 2460? > If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD > support MLDv1. If it is going to support Source-Specific Multicast, s/join any-source multicast/to join any-source multicast group addresses/ also: If an application is going join any-source multicast, it SHOULD support MLDv1. If it is going to support Source-Specific Multicast, it MUST support MLDv2 [MLDv2] and conform to the Source-Specific Multicast overview document [RFC3569]; refer to Source-Specific Multicast architecture document for details [SSMARCH]. Is worded oddly. If A, you SHOULD do MLDv1. If B, you MUST do MLDv2. Shouldn't the first SHOULD be a MUST as well? How can you not support MLDv1 if you are going to join multicast groups and not going to do MLDv2? > This specification MUST be supported if jumbograms are implemented > [RFC-2675]. One open issue is if this document needs to be updated, > as it refers to an obsoleted document. Drop last sentence? I suspect it's irrelevant, as the updated that is needed is cosmetic/editorial, not substantative. Right? > This document is currently being updated. s/this document/RFC2893/ > 7.3 Generic Packet Tunneling in IPv6 Specification - RFC2473 nit: indention is wrong on this heading. > 3DES-CBC does not suffer from the issues related to DES-CBC. 3DES-CBC > and ESP CBC-Mode Cipher Algorithms [RFC2451] MAY be supported. AES- > 128-CBC [ipsec-ciph-aes-cbc] MUST be supported, as it is expected to > be a widely available, secure algorithm that is required for > interoperability. It is not required by the current IPsec RFCs, > however. Perhaps add to last sentence, "but is expected to become required in the future" ??? act as routers. Currently, this section does not discuss routin- specific requirements. s/routin/routing/ > At least the following two MIBs SHOULD be supported MIBs SHOULD be > supported by nodes that support an SNMP agent. duplicate words. > 10.1.1 IP Forwarding Table MIB > > Support for this MIB does not imply that IPv4 or IPv4 specific > portions of this MIB be supported. Which MIB is this? (No reference provided...) > 10.1.2 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP) Ditto. > 12.1 Normative > > [DHCPv6-SL] R. Droms, "A Guide to Implementing Stateless DHCPv6 > Service", Work in Progress. For all the references, please include the ID name, so folk can actually figure out which ID it refers to. Also the RFC editor will want to know this too, so they can put in the right references, in case any are already RFCs. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:06:16 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TL6GU3009095; 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This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses Author(s) : R. Hinden, B. Haberman Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2003-8-27 This document defines an unicast address format that is globally unique and is intended for local communications, usually inside of a site. They are not expected to be routable on the global Internet given current routing technology. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt". 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:46: 33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNhbUu018259 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNhVNM016650 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:43:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030058F; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:43:29 +0900 (JST) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, dnsop@cafax.se X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: RFC2553 API: getnameinfo: ambiguous result due to malicious PTR setting From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:43:28 +0900 Message-ID: <20030827234329.030058F@coconut.itojun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 13539CB81430267-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 23:48:09.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB1FC840:01C36CF5] X-WSS-ID: 13516745990722-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk getnameinfo(3) handles both numeric and FQDN notation of the address, which is very good. i'm happy about this API. however, i have certain worry so i'd mumble here. when (malicious) PTR record like below is configured, there's no way for the user of getnameinfo(3) to detect if (a) there was no PTR record and therefore getnameinfo is returneing a numeric notation, or (b) there was a malicious PTR record. 1.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR 10.1.1.1 char addr[NI_MAXHOST]; struct sockaddr *sa; /* AF_INET, 127.0.0.1 */ getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, 0) then "addr" will contain 10.1.1.1, which looks like a numeric IPv4 address. therefore programmers would think like (a) - there was no PTR record and "sa" contains 10.1.1.1. if we want to be proactive (to protect normal applications), we could reject such PTR responses. however, if we reject those, we will be hiding certain data on the DNS (i.e. DNS diagnostic tool written with getnameinfo(3) will not be able to access raw DNS data). one way to solve this issue is to use NI_NAMEREQD flag, which is cumbersome. char addr[NI_MAXHOST]; struct sockaddr *sa; /* AF_INET, 127.0.0.1 */ if (!getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, NI_NAMEREQD)) /* PTR record is there */ else getnameinfo(sa, salen, addr, sizeof(addr), NULL, 0, 0) /* it is numeric */ any solutions, comments, whatever, is welcome. itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:11:23 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLBDUF011063; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKqFEo004134; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKq4U3004056 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TKmaUu002360 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TKmTqe012289 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:48:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7TKmHT27193; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:48:17 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308292048> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdtuEwrb; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:48:16 PDT Message-ID: <3F4FBE2F.6010003@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:57:19 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ralph Droms CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Some IPv6LL operational experience References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B047C9F95@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030822055900.0467d200@funnel.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030828155341.045e8b30@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ralph, Ralph Droms wrote: > Fred - I'm not sure I have a strong argument against link local > addresses, per se. I do observe that, as of today, we don't have a > complete system for building an ad hoc network - of which LL addresses > would be a part. That is, I don't see how the average Internet user > can sit at a table in a bar with a couple of other folks and "do > networking". We have a way for getting LL addresses, but as far as I > know nothing better than "hey, what's your IP address" as a way to > use applications to communicate on that network. Well, I have seen certain "controlled arenas" in which a central authority can provision, e.g., static host tables, unique MAC addresses, etc. among the nodes they control such that local networking can take place even in random ad-hoc encounters. Granted this only works for communications within the controlled arena and may be an exceptional situation even then as it places an administrative burden on the central authority that grows in complexity with the number of nodes - but in some environments, the overhead may be acceptable. > Site-local addresses are more problematic - they cross more > architectural/political/layer 8 boundaries. As you suggest, there are > issues with address assignment and delegation, routing, provider > independence, etc. I'm not sure we have a tight/complete set of > requirements that are not met by global addresses to guide the design > of some other form of addressing ... so I don't know that we can > effectively discuss whether one solution or another is the right solution. Well, whatever it takes to achieve such as set of requirements would be welcome; it seems there may be more work remaining in the wg discussions so let's see if we can continue to make progress. Thanks - Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:11:27 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLBDUL011063; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TKbE2W028003; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TKZ8Xn027014 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TKHDV7023656 for ; 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Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41: 48 +0300 Received: from esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.45]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:48 +0300 Received: from trebe004.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.22.232.177]) by esebe005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6139); Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:47 +0300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:41:46 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Current Results from Poll thread-index: AcNs6toTNgKwnfUdQamuuhiLbA+DkAAVCWoQ From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com To: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com, mrw@windriver.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Aug 2003 08:41:47.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[37A34F90:01C36D40] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7S8iuU3029085 X-WSS-ID: 135310361484599-01-01 X-WSS-ID: 13516B26402639-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, I vote for B, as it seems to be the most reasonable way forward. However, C sound tempting too. Br, Teemu > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] > Sent: 28 August, 2003 01:27 > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Cc: Hinden Bob (IPRG); Margaret Wasserman > Subject: Current Results from Poll > > > The current results of the poll (appended below) started > early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please > do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being > on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to > respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We > plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we > got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the > working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to > directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to > deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. > I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not > rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific > alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and > will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being > deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline > discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed > through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the > working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their > maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. > Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth > alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the > working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should > proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having > an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group > should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents > outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both > documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to > each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This > would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on > an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean > not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over > Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I > outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:11:25 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLBDUH011063; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:21: 34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RMIcUu013763 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kahuna.telstra.net (kahuna.telstra.net [203.50.0.6]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RMErkH027913 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:14:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gih505.telstra.net (dhcp2.potaroo.net [203.10.60.2]) by kahuna.telstra.net (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h7RMEMRc095097; Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:14:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gih@telstra.net) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828080458.00bb28a0@kahuna.telstra.net> X-Sender: gih@kahuna.telstra.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:14:09 +1000 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: "Geoff Huston" Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt cc: bob.hinden@nokia.com, brian@innovationslab.net In-Reply-To: <20030827214823.85B3E91@coconut.itojun.org> References: <200308272129.h7RLTfM08869@cichlid.adsl.duke.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-WSS-ID: 1353F032535569-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 22:25:06.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[111BD690:01C36CEA] X-WSS-ID: 135166F5406512-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I see that the local use address draft has been revised and published as a WG document. In section 3.2.2 of the draft, it notes that, in reference to Locally Assigned Global IDs that "the likelihood of conflict is small. " I had noted in draft-huston-ipv6-local-use-comments-00.txt that the likelihood of conflict is given by the formula: P = 1 - ((n!) / ((n**d)(n-d)!)) where n = 2**40 and d is the number of random 'draws' from the pool. The likelihood of conflict exceeds 0.5 after only 1.24 million draws. I'd contend that this is definitely not "small" as described in the draft. It appears to me that the comment in this section of the unique local addr draft is misleading, and I'd like to request that this section of the draft be replaced with a more rigorous mathematical analysis of the probability of collision. Thanks, Geoff -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:41:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLfCUP022385; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TLVtcN019822; 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Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:51: 07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7RNmBV7018481 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48: 11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7RNm6Uk022839 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h7RNm51h026097 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:48:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-14.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.14]) by az33exr02.mot.com (Motorola/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h7RNm1St021648 for ; Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3F4D4330.BD111EAE@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:48:00 +1000 From: "Andrew White" Reply-to: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-WSS-ID: 13539B98173887-01-01 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2003 23:51:55.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[32471620:01C36CF6] X-WSS-ID: 135167331844024-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Standardise a good local addressing solution as soon as responsibly possible. Some people seem to want to get rid of site locals. I want to achieve a local addressing solution that (as far as we can) removes the perceived faults. In practice, I think this is probably B, though might be C. What I can say is that it is not-A. -- Andrew White -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:41:18 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLfCUN022385; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TLTvul019018; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLStU3018587 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TLPuV7024220 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TLPpqe029265 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKE001JXGV3IZ@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.20]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HKE006E5GV2PE@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:25:50 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. To: Chirayu Patel Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, "'Brian E Carpenter'" Message-id: <3F4FC4DE.6090807@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Chirayu Patel wrote: >>I would rather like to see some text like: >>The following section of RFC x,y,z.... are obsoleted: >> >>section a.b.c of RFC XXXX >>..... >> >> > >That would be difficult. Text about Site-locals not localized. > I just did a grep if the RFC database of "site local" and feco I found only few meaningful references: RFC2772, 6bone routing practise RFC2894, router renumbering (an example contains FEC0) RFC3111, SLP (an example contains FEC0) RFC3142, TRT (an example contains FEC0) RFC3177, recommendation on /48, some text about site local beeing /48 RFC3082, Notification and Subscription for SLP, an example talks about site local RFC3484, default address selection RFC3513, IPv6 addr architecture It seems to me that the main one to revisit is 3483. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:54:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLsYU3025188; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TLsYOR025184; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bebop.France.Sun.COM (bebop.France.Sun.COM [129.157.174.15]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLsPU3025129 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lillen (d-mpk17-89-167.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.89.167]) by bebop.France.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with SMTP id h7TLlIQ02808; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:47:19 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:43:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Erik Nordmark Reply-To: Erik Nordmark Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks To: Mika Liljeberg Cc: Erik Nordmark , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: "Your message with ID" <1062135436.30883.12.camel@hades> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The conflict only becomes relevant when a multhomed node tries to > resolve a name that is not unique across all its interfaces. When it > does that it will then receive responses from more than one interface > ==> the conflict has been detected. It's then up to humans to fix it. But there are cases when this doesn't work. For instance if you assume the devices with the conflicting names perform the conflict detection protocol but have no mechanisms beyond this protocol for the user to override the chosen name. Thus you seem to silently assume that these devices have a rich user interface that would allow humans to fix this on the devices. An alternative would be to be able to qualify the names on the multihomed node e.g. "canon-camera@firewire1" where the part after the @ sign is the interface on which to perform the name lookup. Thus it would be a local convention, and the camera itself would know its name as "canon-camera" only. Erik -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 14:57:31 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLvVU3025722; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TLvV9O025721; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TLvPU3025695 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TLsOV7012312 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.156.34]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TLsJEn009596 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xpa-fe1 (esunmail [129.147.156.34]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKE0017II6IJ1@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.12.20]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0HKE006CRI6HNB@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:17 -0700 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: Deprecation Poll Vote. To: Chirayu Patel , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3F4FCB89.5020206@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <013b01c36de0$856645c0$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> <3F4FC4DE.6090807@sun.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain Durand wrote: > It seems to me that the main one to revisit is 3483. oops... 3484. bad typo. - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 15:01:39 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TM1cU3026426; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TM1bX8026420; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TM1EU3026271 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TLwHUu022717 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TLsMWN012438 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h7TLsF418269; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:15 -0700 X-mProtect: <200308292154> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.67, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd38fOAh; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:54:14 PDT Message-ID: <3F4FCDA5.9010407@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:03:17 -0700 From: Fred Templin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chirayu Patel CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Accept hain/templin draft as wg item? References: <013401c36de0$81f42970$010aa8c0@chirayu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Chirayu, Chirayu Patel wrote: >Hi Fred, > >I did a quick comparison with my set of comments, and I am happy. :-) > >Just one minor point. > >I had asked for adding text that would make it mandatory for each proposal to >include statistical analysis for > > 1) Probability of collision when "x" networks are merged, when "n" >addresses have been chosen from the address space of "m" values. > > 2) Probability to choose a duplicate address after "a" addresses have >been chosen from the address space of "m". > >I see you have added a sentence stating that proposals should include >statistical analysis. Is there any reason why you do not want to include the >above two points? > My concern was that that text was tending toward very specific formulation but I am not yet convinced that it captures the necessary and sufficient criteria for analysis. I believe we are in fact beginning to see a distillation of the criteria through the current wg discussions, but I don't think we are quite ready to write a tight formal specification - perhaps soon. BTW, the hain/templin -02 draft update is now available at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-templin-ipv6-limitedrange-02.txt Fred ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 15:27:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TMR9U3028656; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TMR9pe028655; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TMR6U3028648 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TMO9Uu006457 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (cs180094.pp.htv.fi [213.243.180.94]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TMO3qe007774 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hades.pp.htv.fi (liljeber@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h7TMQRbO003465; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:26:27 +0300 Received: (from liljeber@localhost) by hades.pp.htv.fi (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) id h7TMQPMg003464; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:26:25 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: hades.pp.htv.fi: liljeber set sender to mika.liljeberg@welho.com using -f Subject: Re: naming in non-routed ad-hoc networks From: Mika Liljeberg To: Erik Nordmark Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1062195985.30882.32.camel@hades> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:26:25 +0300 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2003-08-30 at 00:43, Erik Nordmark wrote: > Thus you seem to silently assume that these devices have a rich user interface > that would allow humans to fix this on the devices. Not exactly. I'm saying that if a device allows a user to name it, the user is ultimately responsible for resolving any naming conflicts. If a device does not provide a UI for this, then it should (preferably) have a globally unique name in the first place. > An alternative would be to be able to qualify the names on the multihomed > node e.g. "canon-camera@firewire1" where the part after the @ sign is > the interface on which to perform the name lookup. Thus it would be a local > convention, and the camera itself would know its name as "canon-camera" > only. To my mind this is not really an alternative but one of the ways in which the user might try to resolve the conflict once it has been detected. I.e., if "canon-camera" comes back ambiguous, the device might tell the user "Choose one of: 1) canon-camera@firewire1, 2) canon-camera@bluetooth1". I think of this as device assisted conflict resolution. The human user still has to make the decision. In many cases this approach would be preferable to unconfiguring or renaming one of the ambiguous names, which would potentially impact multiple human users. MikaL -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 15:44:58 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TMiwU3029347; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TMiw7M029346; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TMisU3029339 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TMfrUu013934 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TMfmgM029238 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:41:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7TMeREV003985; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:40:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7TMeR3T083756; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:40:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7TMeRbY083753; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:40:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Dan Lanciani cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: <200308291940.PAA10734@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <20030829173850.J83208-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Dan: If it were up to me alone, I would do exactly what your suggestions below imply, and proceed on the assumption that administrators of site boundary routers (and, probably, administrators of rich-configuration interior routers) are competent to perform the tasks entailed thereby. However, there is considerable discussion in the list which implies that many participants in this WG believe that router administrators are not uniformly competent, and further that the majority of such administrators are not only not competent, but are specifically and remarkably incompetent. IMO, any competent router administrator will install suitable ACLs inbound and outbound at any site boundary; but this relies on the assumption that the administrator *is* competent, both de jure and de facto. And (to paraphrase _The Odd Couple_) I know altogether too well what happens when I assume. 8-( However, we might be able to make the suggested restrictions a bit less burdensome, provided that we can satisfy the never-route-private-addrs zealots that the revised scheme can still be effective in limiting unintended propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes. See below for specifics. I'll welcome further comments from any source. AEB On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Dan Lanciani wrote: > "Alan E. Beard" wrote: > > [...] > |Additionally, such a suggestion, if implemented, would effectively > |prohibit one of the chief *legitimate* uses of GUPI address address > |allocations: routing between private networks on private (or VPN) links > |under bilateral agreements between the end networks. > [...] > |* Manufacturers of routers MUST include in router code a routing black > |hole for the entire unique-local address block. Router manufacturers MUST > |ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or > |otherwise overridden in toto; > > Please don't do this. I don't want to have to special-case all my interior > routers (that could otherwise get by with simple default routes for much of > the outside world--including tunnels to other GUPI address space) for each > tunnel that might be available at the edge routers. This will be even more > of a problem once we start to set up dynamic tunnels so that a large set of > GUPI-using-sites can communicate in a cooperative overlay network. There is > no way to know whether a router will be used at the edge where you *might* > have some business enforcing such a black hole or deep inside where you have > absolutely no business complicating my routing. > Perhaps we could tie activation of the black hole to the existence of a BGP process, and further, to BGP route distributions only. Since BGP is almost invariably used at boundaries to public networks, this provision alone might be substantially effective in preventing propagation of unique-local prefixes into public networks. If the sense of the group is that a more restrictive default specification is required, we could specify that the default black hole be effective on all redistributions (for example, in the case of cisco boxes, on all 'redistribute RP' statements except 'redistribute static' and 'redistribute connected'). > |however, manufacturers MAY provide a > |configuration facility to "punch through" the black hole for > |user-specified prefixes within the unique-local block. > > But I will probably want to send the *whole* unique-local block to a tunnel > router of some sort. > You will note that there is no specification of prefix length in the suggested text: in the case you propose above, even if the black hole is universally implemented, two 'permit' statements, each for a /8 block (assuming we use the Hinden proposed address space block) would solve this problem. If you have more than two or three interior routers, a stet file containing your routing process definitions and the two permit statements will handle the configuration task with only a few minutes of work for the entire routing domain. This is a a minimal burden, IMO, and what I just described is the worst case. If we tie the black hole to redistributions only or to the BGP process, the burden is even less onerous since boxes which implement these features will bear special-case configurations anyhow. > |Router > |manufacturers SHOULD include in user documentation language to the effect > |that routing of unique-local prefixes beyond site boundaries contravenes > |IETF recommendations, > > Above you said that routing between private networks was legitimate. This > certainly involves routing beyond site boundaries. We need to make it clear > that "beyond site boundaries" does not equate to "on the public internet". > You are, of course, absolutely correct: the language above can and should be considerably improved. After all, I _did_ specify that the text was rough. ;-) However, I suspect that some folks in this group would be inclined to assert that routing of GUPI prefixes beyond site boundaries should be discouraged in most (if not in all) circumstances. I don't happen to agree with this position, but let's see what is the sense of the group. > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com Thanks for your comments; your note is very helpful indeed. Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 16:36:19 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TNaJU3002196; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7TNaJio002195; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7TNaGU3002188 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7TNXIV7027403 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7TNXD9D028637 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1041); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:04 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:11 -0700 Received: from RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by INET-HUB-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:13 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by RED-IMC-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:07 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:31:37 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:33:09 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt thread-index: AcNuf8cbeMzSRQt0Rb2VCAFuG8TQWQABYRpw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Alan E. Beard" , "Dan Lanciani" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Aug 2003 23:31:37.0352 (UTC) FILETIME=[B0DD8880:01C36E85] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7TNaGU3002189 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > However, we might be able to make the suggested restrictions a bit less > burdensome, provided that we can satisfy the never-route-private-addrs > zealots that the revised scheme can still be effective in limiting > unintended propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes. See below for > specifics. I'll welcome further comments from any source. The goal of the recommendation is both to provide some degree of isolation, and also to ensure that the local addresses are not abused in the future. One way to achieve that is to ensure that routers systematically junk any packet sent to FC00::/8 or FD00::/8, unless a more specific route has been installed. This will not require Dan to update his internal routers, since there will indeed be a more specific route for his own internal site. Backdoor connections between links will also work, if a /48 route is announced for the backdoor. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 20:15:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3FZU3009075; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U3FZNh009074; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3FVU3009067 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U3CYUu013734 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U3CRgM027453 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:12:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13230; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308300312.XAA13230@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Alan E. Beard" wrote: |If it were up to me alone, I would do exactly what your suggestions below |imply, and proceed on the assumption that administrators of site boundary |routers (and, probably, administrators of rich-configuration interior |routers) are competent to perform the tasks entailed thereby. However, |there is considerable discussion in the list which implies that many |participants in this WG believe that router administrators are not |uniformly competent, and further that the majority of such administrators |are not only not competent, but are specifically and remarkably |incompetent. That's all well and good, but there are lots of other ways that a router administrator can screw up. It isn't at all clear that this particular way rises to the level of requiring that we kludge all routers in a manner that goes beyond anything that has been done in the past. Fortunately, router vendors have little incentive to go along with such things... |However, we might be able to make the suggested restrictions a bit less |burdensome, provided that we can satisfy the never-route-private-addrs |zealots that the revised scheme can still be effective in limiting |unintended propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes. See below for |specifics. The problem is that you will never satisfy them. You can keep proposing more and more restrictions that make the address space less and less useful, and they will go along. But it will never be enough. Eventually you will make the address space so inconvenient to use that it will be easier to hijack a random prefix that doesn't have all the punitive semantics attached to it. |Perhaps we could tie activation of the black hole to the existence of a |BGP process, and further, to BGP route distributions only. Since BGP is |almost invariably used at boundaries to public networks, this provision |alone might be substantially effective in preventing propagation of |unique-local prefixes into public networks. If the sense of the group is |that a more restrictive default specification is required, we could |specify that the default black hole be effective on all redistributions |(for example, in the case of cisco boxes, on all 'redistribute RP' |statements except 'redistribute static' and 'redistribute connected'). Sigh. I thought we learned our lesson about hard-coding restrictions like this. I remember getting beat up because my stack failed to enforce the absurd subnet number restrictions in the then-popular hosts requirements RFC. Later I was beat up for not having a flexible enough subnet scheme to support CIDR. |> |however, manufacturers MAY provide a |> |configuration facility to "punch through" the black hole for |> |user-specified prefixes within the unique-local block. |> |> But I will probably want to send the *whole* unique-local block to a tunnel |> router of some sort. |> |You will note that there is no specification of prefix length in the |suggested text: No, but the assertion that the approach is in fact a solution to the alleged problem implies something about the prefix length semantics. |in the case you propose above, even if the black hole is |universally implemented, two 'permit' statements, each for a /8 block |(assuming we use the Hinden proposed address space block) would solve this |problem. This is inconsistent with your requirement that ``Router manufacturers MUST ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or otherwise overridden in toto;'' You are now saying that all it takes to override the black hole in toto is two more specific routes for the two halves of the address space. As soon as this is pointed out someone will insist that the overriding routes must have some absurdly large prefix length, e.g., /48. |However, I suspect that some folks in this group would be |inclined to assert that routing of GUPI prefixes beyond site boundaries |should be discouraged in most (if not in all) circumstances. Of course. If end users can own address space and route it via tunnels as an overlay network the value of PA space could be severely hurt. If such an overlay network ever comes close to being fully realized there will be awkward questions to answer about why the routing system couldn't have handled PI space in the first place. The problem is that by the time you impose enough restrictions on GUPI addresses to prevent the overlay scenario you will probably make them useless for the other problems that they are supposed to solve. "Christian Huitema" wrote: |The goal of the recommendation is both to provide some degree of |isolation, and also to ensure that the local addresses are not abused in |the future. One way to achieve that is to ensure that routers |systematically junk any packet sent to FC00::/8 or FD00::/8, unless a |more specific route has been installed. This will not require Dan to |update his internal routers, since there will indeed be a more specific |route for his own internal site. Backdoor connections between links will |also work, if a /48 route is announced for the backdoor. But I don't want to route only to a handful of specific /48s. I want to route all (or at least most) of the GUPI space to a tunnel server that will (try to) dynamically create a path to the target network using some out-of-band lookup mechanism. If I can do that by installing 4 /9's then I'm happy, but you haven't accomplished much beyond making the black hole turn-off switch slightly more complicated than it needs to be. If you are going to require something as specific as a /48 to escape the black hole (and that's exactly where this proposal seems to be going) then you are creating an artificial barrier to an overlay network by forcing unnecessary routing table growth in interior routers. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 20:24:37 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3ObU3009356; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U3ObFu009355; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3OXU3009348 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U3LaV7012043 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U3LUEn004217 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:21:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U3KEEV004341; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:20:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U3KD3T084101; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7U3KDYj084098; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Christian Huitema cc: Dan Lanciani , Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030829195800.H83208-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Christian: A couple of questions concerning the operational specifics of the black hole implied by your statement below. BTW, the policy statement is clear, concise, and utterly reasonable. This is not in the least surprising when I consider who wrote it. :-) On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Christian Huitema wrote: > > > However, we might be able to make the suggested restrictions a bit > less > > burdensome, provided that we can satisfy the never-route-private-addrs > > zealots that the revised scheme can still be effective in limiting > > unintended propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes. See below > for > > specifics. [...] > > The goal of the recommendation is both to provide some degree of > isolation, and also to ensure that the local addresses are not abused in > the future. One way to achieve that is to ensure that routers > systematically junk any packet sent to FC00::/8 or FD00::/8, unless a > more specific route has been installed. This will not require Dan to > update his internal routers, since there will indeed be a more specific > route for his own internal site. Backdoor connections between links will > also work, if a /48 route is announced for the backdoor. > > -- Christian Huitema > Let me see if my notion of how this might work bears any relation at all to the reality of router implementations. As I understand the above text, routers are intended to discard traffic (as distinguished from routing protocol prefix propagation) with destination addresses in the range of FC00::/7 unless there exists in the routing table a prefix of the form FC00:*:*/48 or FD00:*:*/48 where the entire prefix matches the destination address of the subject packets. This would imply that forwarding would be based on routing table longest match, with any packet matching FC00::/8 or FD00::/8 discarded, but, for example, traffic matching routing table entry FC00:DEAD:BEEF/48 forwarded. If my interpretation thus far is accurate, the issue postulated by Dan does not exist: as long as a specific route to the destination (perhaps, to any matching prefix with a length greater than /8) exists in the routing table, matching traffic will be forwarded. Absent restriction on propagation of routes in the FC00::/7 range, any prefix advertised into Dan's routing domain, whether or not the prefix _originates_ within the local domain, will result in traffic forwarded to any destination for which a route more specific than FC00::/8 or FD00::/8 exists. (Or, alternatively, for routes of the forms FC00:*:*/48 or FD00:*;*/48 only if we defeat auto-summary in the IGPs.) As I understand the description so far, this black hole implementation would certainly prevent unintended forwarding of traffic to unique-local prefixes based on the presence of default routes. If all the above is reasonably consonant with practical implementations of the routing protocols, then Dan does not have any administrative burden beyond that imposed by good network design and operational practice. However, it seems possible in certain topologies for that grand bugbear, unintended or malicious propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes into private and public network routing tables, to rear its ugly head (or perhaps its nether end - I don't know how to distinguish one from the other). Let us postulate that Dan's network (for the purposes of this discussion, a large bank) uses unique-local addressing for its back-office operations. Let us further postulate that Dan's bank has private links to a banking service provider for, say, item processing, and to a credit reporting agency for loan application verification. Let us further postulate that both service bureaus are operating on unique-local addresses for reasons of their own, perhaps as arbitrary as preferring not to renumber their large complement of legacy IBM hosts whenever they change ISPs. Additionally, let us postulate that all three entities have a small population of hosts which must be accessible from the public networks, and that those hosts must also be reachable from the local private network. This would imply that the public-address routing environment and the private-address routing environment in each entity might operate as a unified routing domain. Let us now wildly postulate that more than one administrator of the several networks have failed, through inadvertence or neglect, to install properly-configured ACLs at the route redistribution points. Under these circumstances, at least one of the private networks will see undesired routes to unique-local range prefixes. Worse yet, if any of the ISPs serving any of these three end networks should fail to restrict content of incoming routing table updates, we may see unique-local prefixes advertised to the public networks. This breaks the requirement specified in the unique-local draft that prefixes in the FC00::/7 range not be propagated to the global routing tables. Unless I have missed some essential clause in your description above, we appear to have a failure mode, with a root cause of user neglect or user error, in which the non-propagation requirement for unique-local prefixes to the global routing table is likely to be violated. We can rely on network administrators to implement properly-configured ACLs for route redistribution at appropriate boundary points. I for one am perfectly content to do this, for my experience has indicated that most network engineers working on site boundary routers are reasonably competent and reasonably careful (some obsessively, rather than reasonably, so). However, there seem to be a fair complement of folks on the list who feel very strongly indeed that additional safeguards are needed: hence my suggestion that we specify the implementation of a default black hole for routes. Upon further consideration, it appears to me that a scheme which ties the enabling of the black hole to the existence of a BGP process, and restricts the operation of the black hole to BGP-mediated route distributions, should be sufficient to largely prevent inadvertent propagation of unique-local prefixes to the public network routing tables. Perhaps it would be sufficient to limit the black hole to BGP redistributions (that is, to BGP peer operations as distinguished from IBGP peer operations); this would further reduce the need for explicit configuration in cases where propagation of unique-local routes is desired. OTOH, I see at least some merit in applying the default black hole for routes to _all_ routing process redistributions (except static and connected) without regard to routing protocol type: at a minimum, this would provide an additional safeguard for private interconnections, although at the expense of a small increase in configuration burden for the administrators of boundary routers (site or AS). Now, in light of the above, from what misapprehension did my all-we-like-sheep act arise? Again, thanks for your help in getting this sorted. Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 20:38:35 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3cZU3009932; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U3cZCY009929; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3cVU3009921 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U3ZYV7015953 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DAMASCUS.chrims.com (gw.baymeadows.chrims.com [167.160.208.2] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U3ZS9D019989 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by DAMASCUS.chrims.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:19:38 -0700 Message-ID: <2C87B4813250464C9BFA684F807673D5D8463D@DAMASCUS.chrims.com> From: Sean Gray To: "'Bob Hinden'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: Current Results from Poll Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:07:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I vote B. Thanks. -Sean -----Original Message----- From: Bob Hinden [mailto:hinden@iprg.nokia.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 3:27 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com; Margaret Wasserman Subject: Current Results from Poll The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: Preference A 21 Preference B 13 Preference C 7 ------ Total 41 If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them correctly) in a few weeks. Thanks, Bob >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com >From: Bob Hinden >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what >has happened in the past. > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document >, a specific alternative to >site-local addresses draft >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I >think the choices are: > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an >alternative a replacement would not happen. > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the >same time and making them include normative references to each other to >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local >addresses. > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I >hope that many of you will respond. > >Thanks, >Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 20:54:52 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3spU3010494; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U3sp1Z010493; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U3smU3010486 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U3ppV7021035 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U3pjOq011653 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.27]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:52:02 -0700 Received: from 157.54.6.150 by inet-vrs-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:48 -0700 Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-hub-05.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:22 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:44 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:49:32 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:51:43 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt thread-index: AcNupeFlz0fGZQX1Sh6WA7IL4Y2iKgAA2ZyQ From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Alan E. Beard" Cc: "Dan Lanciani" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Aug 2003 03:49:32.0255 (UTC) FILETIME=[B8A056F0:01C36EA9] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id h7U3smU3010487 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Additionally, let us postulate that all three entities have a small > population of hosts which must be accessible from the public networks, and > that those hosts must also be reachable from the local private network. The plan of record is that these publicly reachable hosts will have both a local address and a global address. The global address will be derived from a prefix announced by the ISP. > Unless I have missed some essential clause in your description above, we > appear to have a failure mode, with a root cause of user neglect or user > error, in which the non-propagation requirement for unique-local prefixes > to the global routing table is likely to be violated. Stuff happens. However, one ISP making a mistake does not have to endanger the whole Internet. Any good ISP is suppose to filter routes in the FC00::/7 prefix from its own BGP announcements, and to ignore prefix in the FC00::/7 range that peer ISP might mistakenly advertise. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 21:04:44 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U44iU3010920; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U44hZQ010919; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U44eU3010912 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U41hUu027238 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U41b9D001154 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13709; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308300401.AAA13709@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Alan E. Beard" wrote: |As I understand the above text, routers are intended to discard traffic |(as distinguished from routing protocol prefix propagation) with |destination addresses in the range of FC00::/7 unless there exists in the |routing table a prefix of the form FC00:*:*/48 or FD00:*:*/48 where the |entire prefix matches the destination address of the subject packets. That seems to be what you are suggesting, and it is totally unacceptable. |This would imply that forwarding would be based on routing table longest |match, with any packet matching FC00::/8 or FD00::/8 discarded, but, for |example, traffic matching routing table entry FC00:DEAD:BEEF/48 forwarded. | |If my interpretation thus far is accurate, the issue postulated by Dan |does not exist: as long as a specific route to the destination (perhaps, |to any matching prefix with a length greater than /8) exists in the |routing table, matching traffic will be forwarded. There is a huge difference between requiring a /48 and allowing anything greater than /8. The former cripples the address space for many purposes while the latter means that you can bypass the black hole with 2 or 4 route additions. You can't have it both ways. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 22:24:12 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U5OCU3012887; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U5OCnP012886; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U5O8U3012878 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U5LBV7016592 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U5L6qe021824 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:21:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U5L0EV004512; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:21:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U5L03T084276; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:21:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7U5L0fW084273; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:21:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Dan Lanciani cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: <200308300312.XAA13230@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <20030830000029.G83208-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Dan Lanciani wrote: > "Alan E. Beard" wrote: > > |If it were up to me alone, I would do exactly what your suggestions below > |imply, [...] > > That's all well and good, but there are lots of other ways that a router > administrator can screw up. It isn't at all clear that this particular > way rises to the level of requiring that we kludge all routers in a manner > that goes beyond anything that has been done in the past. Fortunately, > router vendors have little incentive to go along with such things... > As to sentence two, that is a judgement call, and I don't think the list has even begun to approach concensus on the issue. I'm not advocating any specific approach or outcome on this; my intent here is to float some ideas and see what reactions we get. Your position on the matter is now very clear indeed, so we know what one participant thinks. 8-) As to the router vendors, they clearly won't implement features (or documented bugs) which add significantly to the burden of administering a network, and quite rightly, too. > |However, we might be able to make the suggested restrictions a bit less > |burdensome, provided that we can satisfy the never-route-private-addrs > |zealots that the revised scheme can still be effective in limiting > |unintended propagation of non-globally-routable prefixes. See below for > |specifics. > > The problem is that you will never satisfy them. You can keep proposing more > and more restrictions that make the address space less and less useful, and > they will go along. But it will never be enough. Eventually you will make > the address space so inconvenient to use that it will be easier to hijack > a random prefix that doesn't have all the punitive semantics attached to it. > I do agree that making inconvenient the use of unique-local address blocks will probably stimulate many network administrators to use rogue address blocks. I'm not sure that the black hole for routes as proposed raises the administrative burden to a level which would cause mass revolt in the community of network administrators. Again, it's a judgement call, and opinions may vary. I'm not yet prepared to conclude that the WG is so divided on this issue that we can never reach concensus. My view on this is perhaps naive, but I would like to at least try to find some proposal which might be acceptable to the WG as a body. I'm not yet willing to ascribe to any faction or factions intransigence so profound as to preclude any possibility of agreement. > |Perhaps we could tie activation of the black hole to the existence of a > |BGP process, [...] > > Sigh. I thought we learned our lesson about hard-coding restrictions like > this. I remember getting beat up because my stack failed to enforce the > absurd subnet number restrictions in the then-popular hosts requirements > RFC. Later I was beat up for not having a flexible enough subnet scheme > to support CIDR. > Again, we have a value judgement here, and opinions may vary. Provided that there is a configurable override (even if not in toto by a single statement - more on this below), I don't see that there is an insurmountable problem. If the restrictions were hard-coded without any override provision, I would absolutely agree with your statement above. Additionally, almost all current router products can be upgraded or modified should requirements or best practices change, usually by writing a new image into flash or onto the disk; removing or modifying the black hole facility should be fairly straightforward should a substantial change in the function prove desirable. > |> |however, manufacturers MAY provide a > |> |configuration facility to "punch through" the black hole for > |> |user-specified prefixes within the unique-local block. > |> > |> But I will probably want to send the *whole* unique-local block to a tunnel > |> router of some sort. > |> > |You will note that there is no specification of prefix length in the > |suggested text: > > No, but the assertion that the approach is in fact a solution to the alleged > problem implies something about the prefix length semantics. > Only if the reader chooses to so interpret the text. The fact remains that no prefix length is specified, and therefore, unless the text is changed or amended, no prefix length restrictions should be enforceable. > |in the case you propose above, even if the black hole is > |universally implemented, two 'permit' statements, each for a /8 block > |(assuming we use the Hinden proposed address space block) would solve this > |problem. > > This is inconsistent with your requirement that ``Router manufacturers > MUST ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or > otherwise overridden in toto;'' You are now saying that all it takes to > override the black hole in toto is two more specific routes for the two > halves of the address space. As soon as this is pointed out someone will > insist that the overriding routes must have some absurdly large prefix length, > e.g., /48. > The language concerning what may be required to configure partial override for the black hole was quite deliberately crafted so that several interpretations are possible; the details of the exception mechanism are, under the proposed text, left to the implementer. I suspect that the folks who might write code to implement such an override mechanism would be likely to choose the most permissive of the possible implementations, and that, IMO, is a good thing. I would not be in favor of more restrictive language for the clause cited above. The text as proposed will also admit very restrictive interpretations such as you propose above. Implementers are free to choose whatever interpretation they like, provided that said interpretation does not obviously contravene the language of the clause. It's not inconsistent; it's merely vague, and deliberately so. ;-) > |However, I suspect that some folks in this group would be > |inclined to assert that routing of GUPI prefixes beyond site boundaries > |should be discouraged in most (if not in all) circumstances. > > Of course. If end users can own address space and route it via tunnels as > an overlay network the value of PA space could be severely hurt. If such > an overlay network ever comes close to being fully realized there will be > awkward questions to answer about why the routing system couldn't have > handled PI space in the first place. The problem is that by the time you > impose enough restrictions on GUPI addresses to prevent the overlay scenario > you will probably make them useless for the other problems that they are > supposed to solve. > I think we can implement some facility similar to the black hole described above without making overlay networks unusable; in fact, I think we can do so without adding significantly to the burden of configuring and operating such networks, provided that implementers interpret the text of the black hole proposal in a manner which is not inconveniently restrictive. As to the near-exclusive reliance on PA for registered address allocations, it seems to me that there is a significant body of opinion extant which holds that some form of globally-routable PI space would be desirable, provided that we can figure out how to implement it without imposing fatal stress on the routing infrastructure. That battle has already been joined. IMO, most (perhaps all) of the local-addressing proposals now extant are useful as interim facilities to sustain early adopters of v6 until such time as the more fundamental issues arising from reliance on PA space can be resolved or obviated. The easiest way (although perhaps not the fastest) to oviate the issues (multihoming, address stability, stable locators, etc) is, IMHO, allocation of aggregatable, globally-routable PI address space to end networks where requirements of the classes enumerated above exist. Even if this is accomplished (and, by implication, the infrastructure problems resolved or circumvented), most of the GUPI proposals could, IMO, see useful, although perhaps very limited, service beyond the interim period. Here, a personal note: as I interpret your previous posts, our ultimate objectives are very similar; the open questions concern the path to those objectives. > > "Christian Huitema" wrote: > > |The goal of the recommendation is both to provide some degree of > |isolation, and also to ensure that the local addresses are not abused in > |the future. One way to achieve that is to ensure that routers > |systematically junk any packet sent to FC00::/8 or FD00::/8, unless a > |more specific route has been installed. This will not require Dan to > |update his internal routers, since there will indeed be a more specific > |route for his own internal site. Backdoor connections between links will > |also work, if a /48 route is announced for the backdoor. > > But I don't want to route only to a handful of specific /48s. I want to > route all (or at least most) of the GUPI space to a tunnel server that will > (try to) dynamically create a path to the target network using some out-of-band > lookup mechanism. If I can do that by installing 4 /9's then I'm happy, but > you haven't accomplished much beyond making the black hole turn-off switch > slightly more complicated than it needs to be. If you are going to require > something as specific as a /48 to escape the black hole (and that's exactly > where this proposal seems to be going) then you are creating an artificial > barrier to an overlay network by forcing unnecessary routing table growth in > interior routers. > My interpretation of Christian's text is *much* more permissive than is yours. Please see my note to Christian in this thread for an alternative reading of his text. Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 22:36:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U5asU3013253; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U5arA4013252; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U5aoU3013245 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U5XrV7020689 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U5XlEn014171 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:33:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U5XjEV004528; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:33:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7U5Xj3T084295; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:33:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h7U5Xj8X084292; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:33:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Christian Huitema cc: "Alan E. Beard" , Dan Lanciani , Subject: RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030830012153.L83208-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Christian: Thanks for the clarification. Please see inline for a few comments On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Christian Huitema wrote: > > Additionally, let us postulate that all three entities have a small > > population of hosts which must be accessible from the public networks, > and > > that those hosts must also be reachable from the local private > network. > > The plan of record is that these publicly reachable hosts will have both > a local address and a global address. The global address will be derived > from a prefix announced by the ISP. > Yes, that is consistent with my interpretation. Even where this is the case, however, the hosts and the routers in the local environment would have knowledge of the global routes (perhaps a default only for most devices) and the unique-local routes advertised into the local routing domain. The routers are likely to distribute all known prefixes, including those which cross the site boundaries. > > Unless I have missed some essential clause in your description above, > we > > appear to have a failure mode, with a root cause of user neglect or > user > > error, in which the non-propagation requirement for unique-local > prefixes > > to the global routing table is likely to be violated. > > Stuff happens. However, one ISP making a mistake does not have to > endanger the whole Internet. Any good ISP is suppose to filter routes in > the FC00::/7 prefix from its own BGP announcements, and to ignore prefix > in the FC00::/7 range that peer ISP might mistakenly advertise. > > -- Christian Huitema > Yup, you're absolutely right. Perhaps we don't need the route black hole after all, provided that the network administrators execute their tasks fully and consistently. I wonder what the rest of the group think. I'm going to shut up for a while and let some others get a word in. Pekka? Tony? Ralph? Regards, AEB -- Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Aug 29 23:38:40 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U6cdU3014479; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U6cdOt014478; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U6cZU3014465 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U6ZcUu008745 for ; Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ss10.danlan.com (ss10.danlan.com [199.33.144.62]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U6VPWN006252 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:31:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from ddl@localhost) by ss10.danlan.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA14409; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:31:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Lanciani Message-Id: <200308300631.CAA14409@ss10.danlan.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-ipv6-unique-local-addr-00.txt Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk "Alan E. Beard" wrote: |> |in the case you propose above, even if the black hole is |> |universally implemented, two 'permit' statements, each for a /8 block |> |(assuming we use the Hinden proposed address space block) would solve this |> |problem. |> |> This is inconsistent with your requirement that ``Router manufacturers |> MUST ensure that said black hole cannot be deconfigured, turned off, or |> otherwise overridden in toto;'' You are now saying that all it takes to |> override the black hole in toto is two more specific routes for the two |> halves of the address space. As soon as this is pointed out someone will |> insist that the overriding routes must have some absurdly large prefix length, |> e.g., /48. |> | |The language concerning what may be required to configure partial override |for the black hole was quite deliberately crafted so that several |interpretations are possible; We aren't talking about a partial override. We are talking about a complete override which your wording clearly prohibits. If that isn't what you mean then change the wording. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 00:06:33 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U76WU3015264; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U76WCl015263; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U76TU3015256 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 01:57:00 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U8v0U3017489; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7U8v0wQ017488; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7U8uuU3017478 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7U8rxV7016713 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.elmundo.es (bobu.elmundo.es [193.110.128.13]) by brmea-mail-3.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7U8rrqe017855 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:53:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from el-mundo.net (xanes.elmundo.int [10.5.222.50]) by mail3.elmundo.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEFF374DD for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:53:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:53:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Raul Rivero X-X-Sender: rivero@localhost.localdomain To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Current Results from Poll In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-ID: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030827150912.0242f8f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all, I vote for B. On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Bob Hinden wrote: > The current results of the poll (appended below) started early in August are: > > Preference A 21 > Preference B 13 > Preference C 7 > ------ > Total 41 > > If you missed this and want to express a preference, please do so. 41 > isn't a large number given the size of the working group. The chairs > wanted to give folks who might have missed this due to being on vacation or > who were overwhelmed by the amount of email a chance to respond. You can > send your responses directly to the chairs or to the list. We plan to send > a final summary (including the actual results to make sure we got them > correctly) in a few weeks. > > Thanks, > Bob > > >Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:06:55 -0700 > >To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > >From: Bob Hinden > >Subject: Moving forward on Site-Local and Local Addressing > >Cc: hinden@iprg.nokia.com > > > >[IPv6 working group chair hat on] > > > >I think the working group has been making good progress on replacing > >site-local addresses and wanted to get feed back from the working group on > >how we should move forward. This is not intended to directly relate to > >the ongoing appeal of the working groups decision to deprecate the usage > >site-local addresses, but to get feedback on how to proceed. I think it > >is very important that we move forward on this issue and not rehash what > >has happened in the past. > > > >We now have a combined local addressing requirements document > >, a specific alternative to > >site-local addresses draft > >(accepted as a working group item at the Vienna IETF), and will soon have > >a draft describing why site-local addresses are being deprecated and doing > >the formal deprecation (authors identified and outline discussed at the > >Vienna IETF). Note that all of these documents will proceed through the > >normal working group and IETF processes of last calls and review. > > > >I think legitimate questions have been raised about how the working group > >should go about deprecating site-local addresses given their maturity in > >the current specifications and use in deployed products. Specifically > >should they be deprecated independently from having an alternative > >solution available, at the same time an alternative is available, or > >sometime after an alternative is available. A forth alternative is to not > >replace site-local addresses in any form, but I think the working group > >has made it clear that this is not a reasonable alternative. > > > >I would like to hear from the working group on how we should proceed. I > >think the choices are: > > > >A) Deprecate Site-Local addresses independently from having an alternative > >solution available. This would mean that the working group should treat > >the deprecation, and requirements and solution documents outlined above > >independently from each other. If there was no consensus on an > >alternative a replacement would not happen. > > > >B) Deprecate Site-Local addresses at the same time as a alternative > >solution is agreed to. This would mean advancing both documents at the > >same time and making them include normative references to each other to > >insure that they were published at the same time. This would result in > >the deprecation only happening if a consensus was reached on an alternative. > > > >C) Deprecate Site-Local addresses after an alternative is defined, > >standardized, and in operational practice. This would mean not advancing > >a deprecation document until there was operational evidence that the > >alternative was working and shown to be an improvement over Site-Local > >addresses. > > > >Note: In the above choices "Deprecate Site-Local addresses" means > >publishing an RFC that does the formal deprecation. > > > >Please respond to the list with your preference, or if there is an > >alternative approach that is an improvement from the ones I outlined. I > >hope that many of you will respond. > > > >Thanks, > >Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Raul Rivero | Mundinteractivos - El Mundo | Director Tecnico | Pradillo, 42 | rivero@elmundo.es | 28002 - Madrid (SPAIN, EU) | www.elmundo.es | Tel: (+34) 915856018 | -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 06:25:54 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UDPsU3024294; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UDPsgO024293; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UDPoU3024286 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-2.sun.com (brmea-mail-2.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7UDMqV7009663 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from YS (pcp01405718pcs.potstn01.pa.comcast.net [68.81.71.170]) by brmea-mail-2.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7UDIhWN003945 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200308301318.h7UDIhWN003945@brmea-mail-2.sun.com> From: To: Subject: Re: Re: My details Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 9:20:42 --0500 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_NextPart_000_034136EA" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format --_NextPart_000_034136EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the attached file for details 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IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 09:37:53 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UGbrU3028508; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UGbrNM028507; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UGbnU3028500 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com (brmea-mail-3.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id 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owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 10:09:41 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UH9fU3029490; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UH9fTE029489; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UH9bU3029482 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7UH6dUu004816 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout1.bayarea.net (smtpout1.bayarea.net [209.128.95.10]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7UH6YEn000473 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:06:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (shell4.BAYAREA.NET [209.128.82.1]) by smtpout1.bayarea.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7UH7LkH027994; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:07:21 -0700 Received: from localhost (heard@localhost) by shell4.bayarea.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h7UH6Nn19570; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:06:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell4.bayarea.net: heard owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "C. M. Heard" X-Sender: heard@shell4.bayarea.net To: IPv6 Mailing List cc: Bert Wijnen Subject: MIB doctor review of: draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt In-Reply-To: <200308291532.LAA03405@ietf.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Greetings, I have reviewed draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt, and I believe that the document is now ready to proceed to IETF last call. In particular, I have verified that all requested changes have been made (both the ones discussed in the presentation slides for the Vienna IETF and the ones recommended in previous reviews), and I have gone back through the MIB review checklist (Appendix A of ) to make sure that no new problems have been introduced. Here are the checklist results: 1.) I-D Boilerplate -- OK 2.) Abstract -- OK 3.) MIB Boilerplate -- OK 4.) IPR Notices -- OK 5.) References -- OK 6.) Security Considerations Section -- excellent, statements of vulnerabilities are well though out. 7.) IANA Considerations Section -- OK (none present and none required). 8.) Copyrights -- OK 9.) Other issues (i.e., stuff in http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html other than MIB compilation issues) -- OK 10.) Technical content -- the MIB design appears to be sound, and the MIB compilation results from smilint and smidiff appear to be satisfactory. The results from smilint are as follows: This command (smilint 0.4.2-pre1, as of Tue Aug 05 15:58:53 2003) has been processed to get the following results: smilint -m -s -l 6 rfc2096-update-05.mi2 rfc2096-update-05.mi2:1060: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: named number `is-is' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 rfc2096-update-05.mi2:1061: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: named number `es-is' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 rfc2096-update-05.mi2:203: [5] {index-element-no-size} warning: index element `inetCidrRoutePolicy' of row `inetCidrRouteEntry' should but cannot have a size restriction rfc2096-update-05.mi2:115: [5] {index-exceeds-too-large} warning: index of row `inetCidrRouteEntry' can exceed OID size limit by 527 subidentifier(s) rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipCidrRouteDest' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipCidrRouteMask' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipCidrRouteTos' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipCidrRouteNextHop' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipForwardDest' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipForwardProto' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipForwardPolicy' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: index element `ipForwardNextHop' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB Most of these diagnostics are from the deprecated parts of the MIB module and can be safely ignored. The ones that pertain to the new parts of the MIB modue are those for lines 115 and 203. The former warns that it is theoretically possible for the OIDs of column instances in inetCidrRouteEntry to exceed the 128 sub-identifier limit imposed by the SMI and the SNMP by as many as 527 subidentifiers. This is dealt with by the warning to implementors in the inetCidrRouteEntry DESCRIPTION clause that the aggregate size of the index components inetCidrRouteDest, inetCidrRoutePolicy, and inetCidrRouteNextHop must not exceed 111 components. The diagnostic for line 203 is just a warning that the object identifier-valued index column inetCidrRoutePolicy does not have a SIZE constraint. Since the SMI does not allow such constraints, this warning can and should be ignored. In other words, there are no problems revealed by the smilint report. The smidiff report, excluding diagnostics that are merely informational, is as follows: rfc2096-update-05.mi2:953 [3] {to-implicit} implicit type for `ipForwardPolicy' replaces type `Integer32' rfc2096-update-05.mi2:953 [3] {range-added} range `(0..2147483647)' added to type used in `ipForwardPolicy' rfc2096-update-05.mi2:594 [3] {to-implicit} implicit type for `ipCidrRouteTos' replaces type `Integer32' rfc2096-update-05.mi2:594 [3] {range-added} range `(0..2147483647)' added to type used in `ipCidrRouteTos' The objects in question are index objects that were originally not explicitly constrained to have non-negative values; however, this constraint is implicit, since index objects cannot be negative. Since these changes do not change the semantics they are considered to be editorial (see section 4.9). In other words, there is no problem. This concludes the review of draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt. Regards, Mike Heard -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 10:13:32 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UHDWU3029623; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UHDVCC029622; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UHDSU3029612 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-3.sun.com 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majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 10:28:13 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UHSDU3000440; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UHSD2V000439; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UHS8U3000429 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7UHPAUu009929 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7UHP5gM021561 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id h7UHP1D08676 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:25:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:25:00 +0200 Message-ID: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B15502331458@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "'C. M. Heard'" , IPv6 Mailing List Cc: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" Subject: RE: MIB doctor review of: draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:24:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for the MIB doctor review Mike. And thanks to the authors/editors to get this in good shape. Sounds like we're getting real close to IETF Last Call ?? Thanks, Bert > -----Original Message----- > From: C. M. Heard [mailto:heard@pobox.com] > Sent: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 19:06 > To: IPv6 Mailing List > Cc: Bert Wijnen > Subject: MIB doctor review of: draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt > > > Greetings, > > I have reviewed draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt, and I believe > that the document is now ready to proceed to IETF last call. In > particular, I have verified that all requested changes have been > made (both the ones discussed in the presentation slides for the > Vienna IETF and the ones recommended in previous reviews), and I > have gone back through the MIB review checklist (Appendix A of > ) to make sure that no > new problems have been introduced. Here are the checklist results: > > 1.) I-D Boilerplate -- OK > > 2.) Abstract -- OK > > 3.) MIB Boilerplate -- OK > > 4.) IPR Notices -- OK > > 5.) References -- OK > > 6.) Security Considerations Section -- excellent, statements > of vulnerabilities are well though out. > > 7.) IANA Considerations Section -- OK (none present and > none required). > > 8.) Copyrights -- OK > > 9.) Other issues (i.e., stuff in http://www.ietf.org/ID-nits.html > other than MIB compilation issues) -- OK > > 10.) Technical content -- the MIB design appears to be sound, and > the MIB compilation results from smilint and smidiff appear to be > satisfactory. The results from smilint are as follows: > > This command (smilint 0.4.2-pre1, as of Tue Aug 05 15:58:53 2003) > has been processed to get the following results: > smilint -m -s -l 6 rfc2096-update-05.mi2 > > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:1060: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: named > number `is-is' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:1061: [4] {hyphen-in-label} warning: named > number `es-is' must not include a hyphen in SMIv2 > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:203: [5] {index-element-no-size} warning: > index element `inetCidrRoutePolicy' of row `inetCidrRouteEntry' > should but cannot have a size restriction > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:115: [5] {index-exceeds-too-large} warning: > index of row `inetCidrRouteEntry' can exceed OID size limit by 527 > subidentifier(s) > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipCidrRouteDest' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipCidrRouteMask' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipCidrRouteTos' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:517: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipCidrRouteNextHop' of row `ipCidrRouteEntry' should > be not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipForwardDest' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipForwardProto' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipForwardPolicy' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:875: [5] {index-element-accessible} warning: > index element `ipForwardNextHop' of row `ipForwardEntry' should be > not-accessible in SMIv2 MIB > > Most of these diagnostics are from the deprecated parts of the MIB > module and can be safely ignored. The ones that pertain to the new > parts of the MIB modue are those for lines 115 and 203. The former > warns that it is theoretically possible for the OIDs of column > instances in inetCidrRouteEntry to exceed the 128 sub-identifier > limit imposed by the SMI and the SNMP by as many as 527 > subidentifiers. This is dealt with by the warning to implementors > in the inetCidrRouteEntry DESCRIPTION clause that the aggregate size > of the index components inetCidrRouteDest, inetCidrRoutePolicy, and > inetCidrRouteNextHop must not exceed 111 components. The diagnostic > for line 203 is just a warning that the object identifier-valued > index column inetCidrRoutePolicy does not have a SIZE constraint. > Since the SMI does not allow such constraints, this warning can and > should be ignored. In other words, there are no problems revealed > by the smilint report. > > The smidiff report, excluding diagnostics that are merely > informational, is as follows: > > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:953 [3] {to-implicit} implicit type for > `ipForwardPolicy' replaces type `Integer32' > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:953 [3] {range-added} range `(0..2147483647)' > added to type used in `ipForwardPolicy' > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:594 [3] {to-implicit} implicit type for > `ipCidrRouteTos' replaces type `Integer32' > rfc2096-update-05.mi2:594 [3] {range-added} range `(0..2147483647)' > added to type used in `ipCidrRouteTos' > > The objects in question are index objects that were originally not > explicitly constrained to have non-negative values; however, this > constraint is implicit, since index objects cannot be negative. > Since these changes do not change the semantics they are considered > to be editorial (see > section 4.9). In other words, there is no problem. > > This concludes the review of draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt. > > Regards, > > Mike Heard > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 11:35:22 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UIZMU3002268; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7UIZMqg002267; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7UIZIU3002260 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7UIWLUu029557 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7UIWFEn023753 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:32:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ala-mrwtemp.windriver.com ([147.11.233.1]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16278; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030830142042.03d11390@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:29:25 -0400 To: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: MIB doctor review of: draft-ietf-ipv6-rfc2096-update-05.txt Cc: "'C. M. Heard'" , IPv6 Mailing List , "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" In-Reply-To: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B15502331458@nl0006exch001u.nl .lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 07:24 PM 8/30/2003 +0200, Wijnen, Bert (Bert) wrote: >Thanks for the MIB doctor review Mike. Yes, thanks Mike for a very thorough job! >And thanks to the authors/editors to get this in >good shape. Sounds like we're getting real close to >IETF Last Call ?? Yup. Three of the IPv6 MIBs (TCP, IP and IP Forwarding) went through another WG last call before Vienna with only a few minor issues raised, and we are attempting to clean up those issues quickly and get these MIBs to IETF last call ASAP. The UDP MIB is running a bit behind the others, but we hope to have a final WG last call for the UDP MIB soon. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Aug 30 21:03:36 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7V43aU3012760; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7V43au1012759; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.11.21]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7V43WU3012752 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-4.sun.com (brmea-mail-4.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.9+Sun/8.12.9/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id h7V40ZV7009093 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyteen.hactrn.net (dsl092-066-068.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.66.68]) by brmea-mail-4.sun.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7V40TEn023513 for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:00:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hactrn.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cyteen.hactrn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203EA2B3 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:00:24 -0400 (EDT) To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Weekly posting summary for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Rob Austein Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:00:24 -0400 Message-Id: <20030831040024.203EA2B3@cyteen.hactrn.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Messages | Bytes | Who --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 8.49% | 18 | 9.53% | 112843 | moore@cs.utk.edu 8.96% | 19 | 8.70% | 102993 | alh-ietf@tndh.net 4.25% | 9 | 5.37% | 63594 | brc@zurich.ibm.com 5.19% | 11 | 4.18% | 49510 | chirayu@chirayu.org 3.77% | 8 | 3.87% | 45843 | pekkas@netcore.fi 4.25% | 9 | 3.33% | 39396 | leifj@it.su.se 2.83% | 6 | 4.35% | 51454 | aeb1@aebeard.com 3.77% | 8 | 3.36% | 39784 | kruse@ohio.edu 3.77% | 8 | 3.19% | 37788 | ftemplin@iprg.nokia.com 3.77% | 8 | 2.97% | 35115 | michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us 3.30% | 7 | 2.81% | 33329 | ipng-incoming@danlan.com 2.83% | 6 | 2.88% | 34101 | internet-drafts@ietf.org 2.36% | 5 | 2.93% | 34637 | john.loughney@nokia.com 2.36% | 5 | 2.17% | 25691 | mika.liljeberg@welho.com 1.89% | 4 | 2.55% | 30158 | rdroms@cisco.com 2.36% | 5 | 1.91% | 22676 | hinden@iprg.nokia.com 1.89% | 4 | 1.85% | 21870 | huitema@windows.microsoft.com 1.89% | 4 | 1.84% | 21754 | jeroen@unfix.org 1.89% | 4 | 1.83% | 21613 | andrew.e.white@motorola.com 1.42% | 3 | 2.14% | 25343 | narten@us.ibm.com 1.89% | 4 | 1.66% | 19622 | gih@telstra.net 1.89% | 4 | 1.48% | 17573 | alain.durand@sun.com 1.42% | 3 | 1.44% | 17058 | jgraessley@apple.com 1.42% | 3 | 1.04% | 12295 | brian@innovationslab.net 1.42% | 3 | 1.01% | 11968 | erik.nordmark@sun.com 0.94% | 2 | 1.03% | 12241 | jim.bound@hp.com 0.47% | 1 | 1.43% | 16890 | cedric.aoun@nortelnetworks.com 0.94% | 2 | 0.87% | 10272 | lha@stacken.kth.se 0.94% | 2 | 0.85% | 10092 | suresh.h.krishnan@ericsson.com 0.94% | 2 | 0.74% | 8785 | kamarajp@future.futsoft.com 0.94% | 2 | 0.68% | 8045 | lear@cisco.com 0.94% | 2 | 0.65% | 7707 | mrw@windriver.com 0.94% | 2 | 0.64% | 7608 | francis.dupont@enst-bretagne.fr 0.94% | 2 | 0.55% | 6544 | kempf@docomolabs-usa.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.99% | 11735 | robert@digi-data.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.83% | 9833 | gmgross@nac.net 0.47% | 1 | 0.76% | 8965 | teemu.savolainen@nokia.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.76% | 8951 | bwijnen@lucent.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.70% | 8331 | heard@pobox.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.70% | 8293 | greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au 0.47% | 1 | 0.70% | 8291 | rivero@el-mundo.net 0.47% | 1 | 0.69% | 8126 | elwynd@nortelnetworks.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.68% | 8035 | juha.wiljakka@nokia.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.67% | 7969 | karim.el-malki@ericsson.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.64% | 7521 | sean@chrims.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.57% | 6703 | mansaxel@sunet.se 0.47% | 1 | 0.51% | 6031 | ipv6@nosense.org 0.47% | 1 | 0.45% | 5283 | sra+ipng@hactrn.net 0.47% | 1 | 0.44% | 5217 | ciju@avenir.net 0.47% | 1 | 0.43% | 5116 | julien.laganier@sun.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.38% | 4494 | alain.baudot@rd.francetelecom.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.37% | 4427 | miyakawa@nttv6.jp 0.47% | 1 | 0.37% | 4323 | itojun@iijlab.net 0.47% | 1 | 0.35% | 4172 | dfawcus@cisco.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.35% | 4164 | itojun@itojun.org 0.47% | 1 | 0.34% | 4032 | tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk 0.47% | 1 | 0.34% | 3970 | zefram@fysh.org 0.47% | 1 | 0.32% | 3776 | kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 0.47% | 1 | 0.29% | 3465 | shalunov@internet2.edu 0.47% | 1 | 0.29% | 3412 | sommerfeld@east.sun.com 0.47% | 1 | 0.28% | 3330 | chopps@rawdofmt.org --------+------+--------+----------+------------------------ 100.00% | 212 |100.00% | 1184157 | Total Grunchweather Associates provides this automatic summary on an at-whim basis at the request of the IPv6 WG chairs. Your mileage may vary. We decline responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. If this script produces broken output, you get to keep both pieces. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 31 01:53:01 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7V8r1U3017750; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3/Submit) id h7V8r1Rm017749; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7V8quU3017742 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:52:56 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAs CgAAWEMwMDE4MTVk --_NextPart_000_0227040F-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Aug 31 10:51:10 2003 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.10.Beta3+Sun/8.12.10.Beta3) with ESMTP id h7VHp9U3028971; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com 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