From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 09:47:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Hl7Uu018624; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Hl7CQ018623; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Hl4Uu018616 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1HlFMq027232 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23074 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:47:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id JAA19307; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB1Hl4s16631; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212011747> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (216.83.56.167, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdz41qKa; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:47:01 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021201093606.03035a70@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:46:58 -0800 To: Aidan Williams From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3DE5A75F.9060503@motorola.com> References: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4E7@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Aidan, >For each link, a router may automatically assign a site-local >address from an EUI-48 (ie a MAC address) using the following >address format: > > | 12 bits | 48 bits | 4 bits | 64 bits | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > | fef | router device ID | sub ID | machine interface ID | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > Figure 1: Address Format: fef0::/12 BTW, two bits in an EUI-48 (i.e., the g and u bits) are not needed if using this as a global token, so it could be easily compressed to 46 bits leaving two more bits for the subnet. I am not sure this helps very much with the other problems raised. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 13:57:46 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvkUu018999; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Lvjbn018998; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvfUu018991 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1LvrMq025875 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08807 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:57:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1LvVj04887; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:57:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212012157.gB1LvVj04887@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:24:18 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4F9@server2000> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:57:31 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate outside of their site. > Site-locals are perfect for this, if they are not limited to disconnected > sites. > > 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet access but do need to > communicate with selected external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). This > is GUPI. > > 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although this is not directly linked > to the multihoming issue, it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution > would provide it. > > I do not envision a large-scale deployment of IPv6 without providing all > three. Also, it would be a hell of a good idea if 2. could migrate to 3. why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 14:13:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MD8Uu019096; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1MD7ww019095; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MD4Uu019088 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MDFbB022818 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [130.155.191.236]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03705 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:13:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB1MCkgU033217; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200212012212.gB1MCkgU033217@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Keith Moore Cc: "Michel Py" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:57:31 CDT." <200212012157.gB1LvVj04887@astro.cs.utk.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate outside of their site. > > Site-locals are perfect for this, if they are not limited to disconnected > > sites. > > > > 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet access but do need to > > communicate with selected external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). T > his > > is GUPI. > > > > 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although this is not directly linke > d > > to the multihoming issue, it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution > > would provide it. > > > > I do not envision a large-scale deployment of IPv6 without providing all > > three. Also, it would be a hell of a good idea if 2. could migrate to 3. > > why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? Keith are you sure you ment this? #2 works for #1 not the other way around. Mark -- Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 14:39:04 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Md3Uu019290; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Md3IF019289; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1McxUu019282 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MdBMq029737 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11014 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1Mbfj05240; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:37:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212012237.gB1Mbfj05240@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Mark.Andrews@isc.org cc: Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100.") <200212012212.gB1MCkgU033217@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:37:41 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? > > Keith are you sure you ment this? > > #2 works for #1 not the other way around. right you are. I transposed them. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 14:44:10 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MiAUu019339; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1MiAJb019338; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Mi6Uu019331 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MiIbB026170 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12372 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FB@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Thread-Index: AcKZhNFpB1otAexFTYiRCliojafm2gABRe6w From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB1Mi6Uu019332 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, >> Michel Py wrote: >> 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate >> outside of their site. Site-locals are perfect for >> this, if they are not limited to disconnected sites. >> 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet >> access but do need to communicate with selected >> external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). This >> is GUPI. >> 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although >> this is not directly linked to the multihoming issue, >> it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution >> would provide it. > Keith Moore wrote: > why doesn't #2 suffice for #1? [I transposed it back the way you meant] Because #2 does not exist today. You must provide #2 before you try to kill #1. Network administrators do not design production networks with promises. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 14:54:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MsFUu019461; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1MsFiM019460; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:54:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MsBUu019453 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MsMbB026971 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13815 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:54:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1Mrqj05368; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:53:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212012253.gB1Mrqj05368@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:44:24 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FB@server2000> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:53:52 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > why doesn't #2 suffice for #1? > [I transposed it back the way you meant] > > Because #2 does not exist today. You must provide #2 before you try to > kill #1. well, then I strongly recommend that we do that. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 1 15:21:25 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1NLPUu019595; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1NLPk5019594; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:21:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1NLLUu019587 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1NLWMq004030 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22702 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id gB1NLUoP015502 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:21:30 -0700 (MST) Received: [from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id QAA29178 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:21:24 -0700 (MST)] Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-5.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.5]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gB1NLL7C020519 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:21:22 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3DEA9977.37DD1CFD@motorola.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:21:27 +1100 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: globally unique site local addresses References: <200211260104.gAQ14Bl13677@astro.cs.utk.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129052514.0307f480@mail.windriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > 4 or 6 subnet bits are not sufficient for most uses. It is expected > that these addresses will be used for internal numbering within an > enterprise, so we should, at minimum, leave room for a 16-bit subnet > ID. This would allow the same subnet numbers to be used for global > and local subnets. The key point of my proposal must be unclear. I'm not proposing leaving 4 or 6 bits to number the site. Instead, I'm proposing that each router number the subnets it is attached to - ie subnet identifiers are automatically generated from a 50+ bit space. A draft has been written and is working its way through a review process. Hopefully that will make things clearer. -- Andrew White Andrew.E.White@motorola.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:06:12 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2C6BUu021831; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2C6B1G021830; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2C68Uu021823 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2C6JMq010490 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04715 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:06:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2C6ab8001891; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:06:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:04:10 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Steven Blake" , "Christian Huitema" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4C6@server2000> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> Steven Blake wrote: >> I'm having a hard time understanding why any of the >> thousands of institutions with IPv4 PI address prefixes >> would ever migrate to IPv6 if they had to give up PI >> addressing. > > They would not, but the way of providing them PI addresses is not to > punch holes in PA space that would lead us directly in the same swamp > than IPv4. > I must have misunderstood something really seriously here. What is the difference between how we allocate PI space today (well, there is no swamp space in IPv6 of course) compared to the GUPI model? If I have got all this right we are suggesting to take a prefix and use it as PI space, right? Now this is just a matter of the number of holes and the size of them? As an network operator there would be no difference at all. Some here have claimed that GUPI would help to track down incorrect announcements but we can today already deal with RFC1918 space that is leaked. Best regards, - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:21:56 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CLuUu021910; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CLtNo021909; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:21:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CLqUu021902 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CM3bB002834 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07415 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:21:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMNb8001976; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:54:37 +0100 Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Mark Smith , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126092449.015d2d60@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <4E1B5A76-05CB-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > This is a real issue, and a real benefit of site-local addressing. > However, the ambiguity of site-local addresses causes a lot of > problems in this sort of situation. Wouldn't it be better, instead, > if people had a way to get provider-independent addresses that were > globally unique? Enter GUPI addresses... Addresses that are _just_ > like ISP-provided global addresses, except that they belong to the > enterprise and don't need to be changed when you switch ISPs and/or > the ISP renumbers. Well, said! > Sounds good, but it opens some basic (and related questions): > > - How will these addresses be allocated and/or generated? Why can't we take them out of the global address blocks just like today? And have them allocated by the RIRs? Yes, this does create a routing problem, but that is why we have multi6, right? (ok, not entirely true as that deals with multihoming these addresses, but they are more or less related). Somehow I think that this WG and multi6 are discussing more or less the same. > - Will enterprises end up paying their ISPs to route these > addresses globally? Enterprises will end up paying their ISP anyway. Nothing is for free. Additional routes and the cost of longer prefixes of IPv6 will come at a price. > - If so, we need an aggregable way to allocate/generate > these addresses, so that they won't cause > explosive growth of the IPv6 core routing > tables. See above. > - If not, then we can probably just allocate these > addresses sequentially and/or randomly. Except that then we have a problem when this enterprise want this node to be visible globally and would have to renumber - which was the problem we where trying to solve anyway. > Also, we need to consider whether there are other addressing-related > problems in enterprise environment. Are there other needs for > local and/or provider-independent addressing? I don't really know. > PI addressing, I would say yes. Site-local, no. Best regards, - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:22:04 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM4Uu021922; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CM373021920; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CLvUu021912 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CM8Mq011963 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07445 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMTb8001985; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:45:25 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200211271725.gARHPXl01280@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <8C43853F-05EB-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> remember of the voting in Atlanta we had consensus for a limited >> version of site-locals...not creating a separate address structure? > > as I recall, we had consensus for limiting site-locals, > as well as widespread support for the idea that PI globals were needed. > > it's not an either-or. > Uh? Why would we want both? I think we have way to many address groups already.... I clearly see a need for PI space or something that would fill that role. I don't see why we can't assign it in the way we are doing today. It will create a routing scaling issue but let's deal with that for what it is. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:22:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CMGUu021940; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CMF1v021939; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM4Uu021926 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMEMq011985 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25735 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMXb8001991; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:52:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Keith Moore , Margaret Wasserman , Michel Py , Christian Huitema , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: "Alan E. Beard" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith > above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated to > me > that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting site-locals > was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable scheme > for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for > subsequent discussion. So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define "limit" then? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:22:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CMEUu021937; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CMExd021936; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM3Uu021919 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMEMq011982 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25727 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMVb8001988; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:49:50 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200211271727.gARHRql01307@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <29D2CF2E-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> The GUPI model will drive the development of NATs. > > that's just nuts. GUPIs don't encourage NATs any more than any other > aspect of IPv6. It depends... > > I'm beginning to think that citing NATs as a reason for not doing > something in IPv6 is like comparing someone to Hitler in a political > discussion - it's such an extreme statement that it can't be evaluated. > Let me clarify what I meant to say. I do think that we need a functional equivalent of todays PI addresses. If we make these "special" in any way, so that they be either a dedicated address block or we impose the restriction that these should not be routable, someone will come up with a translation device from globally routable addresses to the PI equivalent. Now, we can all think what we want of NATs, my experience as a network operator (in the ISP sense) is that it will create problems on the application layer - just as we are experiencing today. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:42:19 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CgJUu022247; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CgIiV022246; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CgFUu022239 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CgQbB005575 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04702 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:42:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.3]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA14246; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:39:49 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 12:52 PM 12/2/2002 +0100, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: >>My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith >>above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated to me >>that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting site-locals >>was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable scheme >>for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for >>subsequent discussion. > >So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define "limit" >then? I had proposed limiting the use of site-locals to completely isolated networks (i.e. test networks and/or networks that will never be connected to other networks). This would give administrators of those networks an address space to use (FECO::/10) for those networks that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by ISPs, etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses (and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ like globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any network where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a default filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in his completely isolated network). I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider further details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes implementations larger and more cluttered. This was the "limited usage" model discussed at the Atlanta meeting. There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob Hinden in the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, but would not allow sites to border each other (site-local addresses would be filtered in firewalls). The details of this model haven't been documented in detail, but it has the advantage that it would allow the use of site-locals on intermittently connected networks (ones that may not always have global addresses available from their ISP, or where their ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between them. One of the issues, I think, is that neither one was well-enough documented for people to understand the details. So, I'm working on documentation for the "limited usage" proposal. Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" proposal? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:52:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CqKUu022327; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CqKaL022326; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:52:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CqHUu022319 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CqRbB006661 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26521 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:52:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.3]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA16989; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:51:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202074803.025d4928@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:51:31 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <8C43853F-05EB-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: <200211271725.gARHPXl01280@astro.cs.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >I clearly see a need for PI space or something that would fill that role. >I don't see why we can't assign it in the way we are doing today. It will >create a routing scaling issue but let's deal with that for what it is. I would like to see us assign PI addresses just like all other global addresses and route them globally. However, I don't think that we can responsibly do that and claim that the route scaling issue is SEP. Is there any reason to believe that we _can_ actually find a scalable way to route to "portable" PI addresses? It seems like we may need some consultation/cooperation between the multi6 group and the IPv6 group, to see if we can come up with a full solution to provide scalable, routable PI addresses. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 04:53:12 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CrCUu022350; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CrC3h022349; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2Cr8Uu022342 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CrJMq015463 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20590 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:53:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2Cr0225745; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:53:00 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:53:00 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ like > globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any network > where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a default > filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator > would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in > his completely isolated network). I don't think site-locals are special enough to be specifically disallowed by default in BGP. > I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals > need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider further > details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic > mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes > implementations larger and more cluttered. > > This was the "limited usage" model discussed at the Atlanta meeting. > > There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob Hinden in > the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, but would not > allow sites to border each other (site-local addresses would be > filtered in firewalls). The details of this model haven't been > documented in detail, but it has the advantage that it would allow > the use of site-locals on intermittently connected networks (ones that > may not always have global addresses available from their ISP, or where > their ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). > > The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these > two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between > them. One of the issues, I think, is that neither one was well-enough > documented for people to understand the details. So, I'm working on > documentation for the "limited usage" proposal. > > Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" > proposal? > > Margaret > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 05:29:59 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2DTxUu022705; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2DTwps022704; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2DTsUu022697 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2DU5Mq020104 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13079 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:29:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB2DTij11941; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:29:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212021329.gB2DTij11941@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:51:31 EST.") <5.1.0.14.0.20021202074803.025d4928@mail.windriver.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:29:44 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > However, I don't think that we can responsibly do that and claim that the > route scaling issue is SEP. Is there any reason to believe that we _can_ > actually find a scalable way to route to "portable" PI addresses? I don't think we need to solve the global routing problem for PI addresses to be beneficial. PI addresses are extremely useful even if they can only be routed by private agreement between networks. Trying to make PI addresses be suitable for global routing as a pre-condition for having PI addresses strikes me as self-defeating. It's nice if it works out that way, but it should not be considered a necessary condition. My fear is that trying to solve that problem will delay PIs enough that we'll be stuck with site locals. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 06:28:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2ESXUu022875; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2ESX1n022874; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2ESUUu022867 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2ESfMq001405 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05536 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:28:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2ESDJm024244; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:28:14 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gB2ESC0F062286; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:28:12 +0100 Received: from dhcp23-27.zurich.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71332 from ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:27:56 +0100 Message-Id: <3DEB6DD4.1A236977@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:27:32 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Cc: Michel Py , Aidan Williams , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: globally unique site local addresses References: <200211272311.gARNB1gU008686@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk It could work. It would just be an administrative nightmare. Brian Mark.Andrews@isc.org wrote: > > > > Brian Carpenter wrote: > > > So I am unconditionally against any scheme that > > > generates prefixes longer than /48. > > > > Agreed. > > > > Michel. > > Why? You can just get a additional prefixes if you need > them. I would prefer it to be the same size as what is > recommended for PA space but could work with a different > size. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 07:31:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FVGUu023100; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2FVGrH023099; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:31:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FVDUu023092 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FVNbB029285 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from frantic.weston.bsdi.com (frantic-dmz.weston.BSDI.COM [206.196.54.22]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10808 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:31:17 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dab@localhost) by frantic.weston.bsdi.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id gB2FUwp10837; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:30:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:30:58 -0600 (CST) From: David Borman Message-Id: <200212021530.gB2FUwp10837@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> To: michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mrw@windriver.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > From: Keith Moore > Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:29:52 -0500 > > > The lack of global routability of site-local addresses is a > > feature, not a bug. > > I don't think we have concensus on that. there seem to be at least > a few people who want PI addresses that *are* routable, or at least, > for which such restrictions are not imposed. IPv4 has globally routable GUPI (GRUPI) addresses. That's all it had in the early days. The explosion in the size of the routing tables is was forced changes such as CIDR and new addresses being allocated from ISP blocks. The only reason we still have GRUPI addresses in IPv4 is because they were grandfathered in. With the current routing structure, trying to define IPv6 GRUPI addresses is doomed to failure because it will not scale. We learned that with IPv4. Until there is a new routing structure that will support scaling of GRUPI addresses, we should not define GRUPI addresses. We are talking about 3 different classes of addresses, they should each have their own block of address space: 1) Leave FEC0::/10 as Site Local addresses. They are not globally unique, but several proposals have been proposed for picking them in a somewhat random method to make them mostly unique. Site Locals should be free and not require any registration. 2) There seems to be a need for a globally unique version of Site Local addresses (GUSL), so we should just define a new block for them. These would require registration, and perhaps a fee, just like when you get a domain name. 3) If anyone ever comes up with a method for handling the problem of scaling GRUPI addresses in the routing protocols, then at that time we can define a third block for GRUPI addresses. At the Atlanta IETF meeting I voted for limited use of Site Local addresses. That is because we have several issues for dealing with SLs, DNS support being one of the top items. It seems to me that the pros and cons of SL vs. GUSL vs. GRUPI have been discussed in great detail, and we now just seem to be rehashing the same things. 1) We seem to have a better handle on dealing with GUSL addresses (or at least we've identified issues that SLs have that can be mitigated by having GUSL addresses), so we should get a block of address space reserved for GUSL addresses, and those who want them can work on getting the registration rules set up. 2) Many of the issues that GUSL addresses mitigate can be mitigated for SLs by having random generation of SL prefixes. So we should select the method(s) of generating pseud-random SLs and document it (them). 3) We should list the specific problems that will occur with wide-spread deployment of SLs and GUSLs, and start to work on them one at a time. 4) The people who really want GRUPI addresses should work on the scaling issues with routing, and if that is ever solved then a new block of addresses can be allocated for GRUPI. -David Borman -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 07:48:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FmqUu023193; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2FmqZp023192; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:48:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FmmUu023185 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FmxMq015191 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20910 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:48:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB2Fmhj12596; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:48:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212021548.gB2Fmhj12596@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: David Borman cc: michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us, moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mrw@windriver.com Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:30:58 CST.") <200212021530.gB2FUwp10837@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:48:43 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 2) There seems to be a need for a globally unique version of Site Local > addresses (GUSL), so we should just define a new block for them. > These would require registration, and perhaps a fee, just like when > you get a domain name. I think it's still up in the air as to whether these are really local to a site in the sense that site-locals were assumed to be. In other words, can they be routed between sites by private agreement? > 4) The people who really want GRUPI addresses should work on the scaling > issues with routing, and if that is ever solved then a new block of > addresses can be allocated for GRUPI. or they can just start routing GUPIs. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 07:54:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FsFUu023238; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2FsF3S023237; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FsCUu023227; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FsMbB003203; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16109; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:54:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2FsCv13316; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:54:12 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2FraPC089031; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:53:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021553.gB2FraPC089031@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: "Bound, Jim" cc: "Alper E. YEGIN" , "Samita Chakrabarti" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:26:08 EST. <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C32@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:53:36 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: What you did would work with what I stated too. After the kernel gets done the getsockname could send back all data but I think we would need a new api and options to the kernel? => as I wrote I used a "clone" of the getsockname() system call (it was a getsockopt() which returns a sockaddr_in6 structure, its code was like the getsockname() but finished by a lookup in the H@ -> Co@ mapping table... very simple, just cut & paste) Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: it should take less than one hour to add it to a Mobile IPv6 implementation on a BSD-like OS. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 07:54:47 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FskUu023278; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2FskON023277; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FsQUu023251; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FsaMq016203; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16302; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:54:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2FsRv13349; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:54:27 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2FruPC089053; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:53:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021553.gB2FruPC089053@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Samita Chakrabarti cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:59:15 PST. <200211250456.gAP4uAml178367@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:53:56 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: Yes, the applications need to change to accomodate MobileIP. => this is my concern. The goal should be to change them minimally. => a minimum greater than zero is not acceptable. IMHO the setsockopt() solution is not what we need, and there is no easy alternative. (the problem is in the address selection stuff which doesn't propose reasonable ways to influence some parts of the policy). Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:05:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2G5DUu023737; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2G5DSB023736; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2G54Uu023719; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2G5EbB006371; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02283; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:05:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2G4xv13867; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:04:59 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2G4RPC089168; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:04:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021604.gB2G4RPC089168@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Samita Chakrabarti cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, samita.chakrabarti@Sun.COM Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:53:47 PST. <3DDC66DB.94ACBF97@eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:04:27 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: I am looking into possible MIPv6 APIs as an extension to IPv6 Adv-API document. The following requirements in MIPv6 spec indicates that there is a need for Socket API which will allow the MIPv6 applications to choose COA as mobile node's source address (in a visited network), while default address selection draft prefers home address as the default source address (section 5 and 6 rule 4). The MIPV6 API should also take care of choosing temporary address and non-temporary address from the application level. Also, there is a need to choose link-local or site-local address as source address (depending on the scope) for the MN while visiting (see below). => I disagree for the last point because it can be done using the address selection policy table. The issue is for choices which can't be coded in the table, i.e., mobility and temporary. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: in the current KAME there is a global policy table, it should be useful to have it in the context (i.e., per process but as shared as possible). The syntax of the table and its default is in the address selection document, tools and API should be described somewhere (and if possible not in the advanced MIPv6 API). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:13:31 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GDVUu024066; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GDUUs024065; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GDKUu024039; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GDUbB008679; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29427; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:13:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2GDLv14214; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:13:21 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2GCoPC089271; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:12:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021612.gB2GCoPC089271@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: "Alper E. YEGIN" cc: "Samita Chakrabarti" , mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:58:45 PST. <008e01c298bb$c3d9eaa0$096015ac@AlperVAIO> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:12:50 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: > > Or, don't change the getsockname(), but instead call > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() afterwards to identify if the address is bound > > to a care-of address. Note that this binding can dynamically any time, > > and subsequent mip_get_one_mobile_node() calls are sufficient to capture > > the changes. > > I'd say for connected and bound sockets, getsockname() would return the > correct topological source address. But that'd break the getsockname() function, which should return the local binding of the socket. If the socket is bound to a home address, that address should be returned by the function, even though it might be also (Mobile IP-)bound to a care-of address. => there are two things: the address the socket is bound to (should be the home address in common cases) and the address which will be in the source field on the wire (should be the care-of address). getsockname() must return the first one but the mobile IP API should give a way to retrieve the second. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:13:44 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GDiUu024082; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GDiS1024081; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GDZUu024071 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GDjbB008719 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29591 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:13:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:13:52 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FF@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaAN8pJZeEaX49QKCTc1cv53CtfQAHHNIw From: "Michel Py" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GDZUu024072 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Margaret Wasserman > There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob > Hinden in the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, > but would not allow sites to border each other (site-local > addresses would be filtered in firewalls). The details of this > model haven't been documented in detail, but it has the > advantage that it would allow the use of site-locals on > intermittently connected networks (ones that may not always > have global addresses available from their ISP, or where their > ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). > are you or anyone else working to document the > "moderate usage" proposal? The GUSL draft that Charlie Perkins and I will propose soon fits the "moderate usage" you described. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:17:36 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GHaUu024266; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GHaWW024265; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:17:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GHWUu024258; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GHhbB009784; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10090; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:17:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2GHXv14358; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:17:33 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2GH1PC089304; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:17:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021617.gB2GH1PC089304@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: "Alper E. YEGIN" cc: "Samita Chakrabarti" , Jim.Bound@hp.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:22:42 PST. <009101c298bf$01e81e40$096015ac@AlperVAIO> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:17:01 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: > That's what I was aiming for; a short and simple advanced api socket > extension doc as a guideline for MIPv6 compatible applications. The default address selection draft contemplates about such an API: Implementations should provide a mechanism allowing an application to reverse the sense of this preference and prefer care-of addresses over home addresses (e.g., via appropriate API extensions). Use of the mechanism should only affect the selection rules for the invoking application. => this suggests a setsockopt() API which is not usable. What I suggest is: - a better solution for address selection exceptions - a get_the_care-of_which_shall_be_used for very special applications (which need this information to explicitely bind sources) I think we should work on a separate Mobile IP API, that can encompass this and more. => no, only the second item should be in the Mobile IP API. The first one has to go in an address selection control API. Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:24:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GO8Uu024626; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GO7BS024625; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:24:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GO4Uu024615 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GOEbB011353 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05462 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:24:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:24:24 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4A5@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKZ+2DgpGve6TKCRKaFJwrWPZr2pwAIz6Fw From: "Michel Py" To: "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GO4Uu024616 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Kurtis, GUPI would not be globally routable. It would be a way to make sites privately communicate, as neither the "limited usage" or the "moderate usage" of site-locals provides this. Michel. > Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > I must have misunderstood something really seriously here. > What is the difference between how we allocate PI space > today (well, there is no swamp space in IPv6 of course) > compared to the GUPI model? If I have got all this right > we are suggesting to take a prefix and use it as PI space, > right? Now this is just a matter of the number of holes > and the size of them? As an network operator there would > be no difference at all. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:26:03 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GQ3Uu024740; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GQ3bu024739; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:26:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GPxUu024729 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GQAMq024828 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15725 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:26:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:26:20 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FE@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaAcSZG6+OBJUfTZyHJCAeOVWJkAAGbt0w From: "Michel Py" To: "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GQ0Uu024730 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > I would like to see us assign PI addresses just like all > other global addresses and route them globally. > However, I don't think that we can responsibly do that > and claim that the route scaling issue is SEP. Agreed. > Is there any reason to believe that we _can_ actually find > a scalable way to route to "portable" PI addresses? Not at this time I'm afraid; we do have a draft for globally routing geographical addresses but it is not scalable long-term; a transition mechanism, or a fail-safe. I mentioned PI addresses earlier as identifiers in a dual space identifier/locator solution. They would be routable locally and between sites, but not globally (or limited routing). > It seems like we may need some consultation/cooperation > between the multi6 group and the IPv6 group, to see if > we can come up with a full solution to provide scalable, > routable PI addresses. Multi6 is not chartered to develop solutions. This point has been made in Atlanta again. The development of multihoming solutions has moved outside the IETF a year ago. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:36:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GaLUu024977; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GaLv6024976; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GaHUu024969 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GaSMq028041 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21897 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:36:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:34 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E500@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaBw6R6bl/WPYYQQK8K3zuFUJoigAGOg2g From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GaIUu024970 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > I don't think we need to solve the global routing > problem for PI addresses to be beneficial. PI > addresses are extremely useful even if they can only > be routed by private agreement between networks. > Trying to make PI addresses be suitable for global > routing as a pre-condition for having PI addresses > strikes me as self-defeating. It's nice if it works > out that way, but it should not be considered a > necessary condition. It is not, but asking for PI with no plan to manage the risk of "privately routed PI" ending up "globally routed PI mess" is a non-starter. One of the surest ways to kill IPv6 is to make it the same crud as IPv4 with more bits. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:43:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GhqUu025084; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GhqgL025083; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GhmUu025076 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GhwbB016909 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27291 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:43:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB2GgEj13368; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:42:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212021642.gB2GgEj13368@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:36:34 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E500@server2000> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:42:14 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > It is not, but asking for PI with no plan to manage the risk of > "privately routed PI" ending up "globally routed PI mess" is a > non-starter. why not just say: --- Users of GUPIs are cautioned that there is currently no known feasible way of routing everyone's GUPIs through the global Internet. Therefore it is unreasonable to expect GUPIs to be globally reachable, and routing of GUPIs between networks is by bilateral agreement only. ISPs in the public Internet SHOULD filter traffic to and from GUPIs, and SHOULD filter GUPIs from routing advertisements that are sent to other ISPs. These recommendations may be revised in the future if advances are made in routing technology. --- Is that so difficult? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 08:46:41 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GkfUu025113; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2Gkfgt025112; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GkcUu025105 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GkmMq001237 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24174 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:46:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:46:58 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4AA@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaIey4wGK0W+1ZQ56adizW/ZdK5gAAAnlQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GkcUu025106 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > why not just say: > ISPs in the public Internet SHOULD filter traffic to > and from GUPIs, and SHOULD filter GUPIs from routing > advertisements that are sent to other ISPs. You're the only one that believes this would work, I'm afraid. ISPs do what their customers pay them to do, including leaking GUPIs in the global routing table. If this your idea of managing the risk, please find something else. Even if you put a MUST, it would not change the fact that money talks louder than RFCs. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 09:04:33 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2H4XUu025321; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2H4X62025320; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2H4TUu025313 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2H4dMq006468 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13471 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:04:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB2H48j13788; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:04:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212021704.gB2H48j13788@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:46:58 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4AA@server2000> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:04:08 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > why not just say: > > ISPs in the public Internet SHOULD filter traffic to > > and from GUPIs, and SHOULD filter GUPIs from routing > > advertisements that are sent to other ISPs. > > You're the only one that believes this would work, I'm afraid. ISPs do > what their customers pay them to do, including leaking GUPIs in the > global routing table. as far as I can tell, for the most part, ISPs follow the constraints in the protocol specifications. frankly I don't see any way of having globally unique addresses that are inherently unroutable. and I don't know why ISPs are inherently less trustworthy than other parties. and I don't know why an ISP would accept advertisements for GUPIs from its peers unless it was paid (well) to do so. about all we can do is define the protocols. it's very difficult to build mechanisms that force people to adhere to those definitions. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 09:28:48 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2HSmUu025792; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2HSmlk025791; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:48 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2HSiUu025784 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2HStMq013746 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25171 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:28:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0800 Received: from 157.54.8.23 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0800 Received: from red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0800 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:23 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3710.0); Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:24 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6803.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:28:23 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaJxJ7IuWbOesIRte3kSzTSknZ/AAAE4vw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Keith Moore" , "Michel Py" Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2002 17:28:24.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[3780EA40:01C29A28] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2HSjUu025785 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > and I don't know why an ISP would accept advertisements for GUPIs from > its peers unless it was paid (well) to do so. The key part of enforcement is indeed the community effect. If the community agreement is that GUPIs should not be routed over the Internet, we will get a situation were GUPIs are automatically rejected by 90% of the ISP, through a combination of black-hole routes and BGP filtering. If we get there, then no amount of pressure on individual ISP can compromise the global routing tables. What I perceived in the previous discussion was an unwillingness to do this, because is would ban Internet wide routing of the GUPI forever. There are some who seem to be willing to use GUPI to sneak PI routing in IPv6. I believe we should really not go there, and state clearly that PI addressing will be the result of the MULTI6 work (perhaps), not an evolution of the GUPI. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 10:35:27 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IZRUu026259; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2IZRH8026258; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:35:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IZNUu026251; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2IZXtr566441; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:35:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021835.gB2IZXtr566441@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:38:42 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: alper@docomolabs-usa.com Cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: SCkPwLo6goeQ8G2iusjo5A== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > I'd say for connected and bound sockets, getsockname() would return the > > correct topological source address. > > But that'd break the getsockname() function, which should return the local > binding of the socket. If the socket is bound to a home address, that > address > should be returned by the function, even though it might be also > (Mobile IP-)bound to a care-of address. In order to bind() to a address it generally requires that the address is locally configured. I assumed that the suggestion was that the MN would always have a home-address configured as a logical interface or some pseudo interface. It seems a bit odd for a socket API to return a fake address while it's bound to a different address. That's why it's clean to direct the kernel to swtich the source address selection mechanism from the default to the desired. -Samita -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 10:49:18 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2InIUu026521; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2InHT0026520; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2In6Uu026505; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2InHtr570228; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021849.gB2InHtr570228@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:25 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: alper@docomolabs-usa.com Cc: Jim.Bound@hp.com, Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: P8vGdqLzY1HjT9xCjuyFAg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > That's what I was aiming for; a short and simple advanced api socket > > extension doc as a guideline for MIPv6 compatible applications. > > > The default address selection draft contemplates about such an API: > > Implementations should provide a mechanism allowing an application > to reverse the sense of this preference and prefer care-of addresses > over home addresses (e.g., via appropriate API extensions). Use of > the mechanism should only affect the selection rules for the > invoking application. > > I think we should work on a separate Mobile IP API, that can encompass > this and more. Let me work a draft for MIPv6 adv-API extension. If you're thinking about the draft you folks already have, then as I mentioned before, that is in a different scope and perhaps it can address some of the mobileIP application level guidelines. I don't see a reason a why we need to have a single document which encompasses advanced socket APIs and application level APIs. Also, we would like to see some more comments on the list from folks that have not participated on this discussion yet, but have an opinion about it. Thanks, -Samita > > I agree that the server side apps do not require change, but some > > client side apps should change (like dns-client, printer-client etc.) > > so that they don't have to send packets all the way to the home-agent > > for doing the local job. > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > -Samita > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Alper E. YEGIN [mailto:alper@docomolabs-usa.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:49 PM > > > > To: Francis Dupont > > > > Cc: Samita Chakrabarti; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; > > > > mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to > > > > switch default source address selection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > An alternative approach could be: If the application cares about > > > > > the source address, it can use the Mobile IP API to > > > > figure out which > > > > > ones are home address, which ones are care-of address, and than > > > > > explicitly "bind" the socket to the desired address. > > > > IMO, this would > > > > > also satisfy the needs of the Mobile IPv6 mobile node. > > > > > > > > > > => this is similar to what I implemented in the past. > > > > > But a function giving the list of addresses with status is > > > > not enough, > > > > > the best is to give the home address and the care-of address for a > > > > > destination. > > > > > > > > I see. When the mobile node has more than one pair of > > > > home_address-care_of_address, then it won't really know which > > > > one to pick. So, maybe, instead of exporting all this > > > > information to the apps and giving them the control, it might > > > > be better > > > > to enable the app to say "bind this socket to any address, > > > > preferably topologically correct (i.e., a CoA, or home > > > > address when at home)". I suspect this is what Samita had in > > > > her mind.. > > > > > > > > > As first info is getsockname() for bound sockets, > > > > > I added a clone of getsockname() which returns the real > > > > source address > > > > > after MIPv6 processing. > > > > > > > > Or, don't change the getsockname(), but instead call > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() afterwards to identify if the > > > > address is bound to a care-of address. Note that this binding > > > > can dynamically any time, and subsequent > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() calls are sufficient to capture the changes. > > > > > > > > alper > > > > > > > > > Note this doesn't solve the need of a control for smarter choice > > > > > between Co@/H@. I proposed some and implemented two: use > > > > always the H@ > > > > > and use it but a Co@ when the destination is in the same > > > > link then a > > > > > Co@. They were global (still better than none :-). > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 10:52:50 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IqoUu026601; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2IqoY3026600; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IqkUu026593; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2Iqutr571064; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021852.gB2Iqutr571064@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr Cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: BCtQjqn9NgGaBL2mVnIwVw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > (section 5 and 6 rule 4). The MIPV6 API should also take care of > choosing > temporary address and non-temporary address from the application level. > Also, there is a need to choose link-local or site-local address as > source > address (depending on the scope) for the MN while visiting (see below). > > => I disagree for the last point because it can be done using > the address selection policy table. The issue is for choices > which can't be coded in the table, i.e., mobility and temporary. > Yes, I aggree with your disagreement here. link-local source address (site-local perhaps out-of-scope now) can be handled by the default address selection draft. -Samita -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 11:20:14 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JKDUu027226; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2JKDFe027225; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JKAUu027218 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JKLMq025418 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from frantic.weston.bsdi.com (frantic-dmz.weston.BSDI.COM [206.196.54.22]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11022 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:20:15 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dab@localhost) by frantic.weston.bsdi.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id gB2JJuC11685; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:19:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:19:56 -0600 (CST) From: David Borman Message-Id: <200212021919.gB2JJuC11685@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> To: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > From: Keith Moore > Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) > Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:48:43 -0500 > > > 2) There seems to be a need for a globally unique version of Site Local > > addresses (GUSL), so we should just define a new block for them. > > These would require registration, and perhaps a fee, just like when > > you get a domain name. > > I think it's still up in the air as to whether these are really local > to a site in the sense that site-locals were assumed to be. In other > words, can they be routed between sites by private agreement? Sure, why not? I don't think we can stop it from happening. And I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. The problem with trying to globally route PI addresses is the routing table explosion it causes to the global internet. If a site wants to route SLs or GUPI addresses with another site over a private link, then they are just bloating their own routing tables (but probably not enough bloat to cause serious problems). I see 3 options: 1) State that PI addresses (SL, GUSL/GUPI, GRUPI) are not routeable between sites, even over private links. 2) State that PI addresses (SL, GUSL/GUPI, GRUPI) are only routeable between sites over private links. 3) State the PI addresses are not routeable over the global internet. I don't think that stating #1 is going to prevent #2, so I'd vote for #3. As long as people don't impact the global internet, how they choose to configure private links is up to them. > > 4) The people who really want GRUPI addresses should work on the scaling > > issues with routing, and if that is ever solved then a new block of > > addresses can be allocated for GRUPI. > > or they can just start routing GUPIs. Yes, but as others have pointed out, if there are filters everywhere to block them it might be easier to create a new block for GRUPI addresses than trying to "upgrade" the GUPI addresses. -David Borman -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 11:30:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JUMUu027354; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2JUMir027353; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JUJUu027346 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JUUMq028805 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09535 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:30:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA05487; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB2JUHV06089; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:17 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212021930> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdgaYICm; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:30:15 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021202112716.03136180@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:30:11 -0800 To: Margaret Wasserman From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> References: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, >Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" >proposal? Yes, I am working on a "moderate usage" draft. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 11:43:45 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JhiUu027521; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2Jhi2W027520; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JhfUu027513 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JhqbB016482 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from southstation.m5p.com (dsl-209-162-215-52.dsl.easystreet.com [209.162.215.52]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26216 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:43:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from m5p.com (parkstreet.m5p.com [10.100.0.1]) by southstation.m5p.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB2JheLw053701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-DSS-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from george@localhost) by m5p.com (8.12.5/8.12.1/Submit) id gB2Jhexa082566; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:43:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021943.gB2Jhexa082566@m5p.com> From: george+ipng@m5p.com To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > From: David Borman > > IPv4 has globally routable GUPI (GRUPI) addresses. That's all it had > in the early days. The explosion in the size of the routing tables is > was forced changes such as CIDR and new addresses being allocated from > ISP blocks. The only reason we still have GRUPI addresses in IPv4 > is because they were grandfathered in. > > With the current routing structure, trying to define IPv6 GRUPI addresses > is doomed to failure because it will not scale. We learned that with IPv4. > Until there is a new routing structure that will support scaling of GRUPI > addresses, we should not define GRUPI addresses. > > We are talking about 3 different classes of addresses, they should > each have their own block of address space: > > 1) Leave FEC0::/10 as Site Local addresses. They are not globally > unique, but several proposals have been proposed for picking > them in a somewhat random method to make them mostly unique. > Site Locals should be free and not require any registration. > > 2) There seems to be a need for a globally unique version of Site Local > addresses (GUSL), so we should just define a new block for them. > These would require registration, and perhaps a fee, just like when > you get a domain name. > > 3) If anyone ever comes up with a method for handling the problem of > scaling GRUPI addresses in the routing protocols, then at that time > we can define a third block for GRUPI addresses. > > At the Atlanta IETF meeting I voted for limited use of Site Local > addresses. That is because we have several issues for dealing with > SLs, DNS support being one of the top items. It seems to me that the > pros and cons of SL vs. GUSL vs. GRUPI have been discussed in great > detail, and we now just seem to be rehashing the same things. > > 1) We seem to have a better handle on dealing with GUSL addresses (or > at least we've identified issues that SLs have that can be mitigated > by having GUSL addresses), so we should get a block of address space > reserved for GUSL addresses, and those who want them can work on > getting the registration rules set up. > > 2) Many of the issues that GUSL addresses mitigate can be mitigated for > SLs by having random generation of SL prefixes. So we should select > the method(s) of generating pseud-random SLs and document it (them). > > 3) We should list the specific problems that will occur with wide-spread > deployment of SLs and GUSLs, and start to work on them one at a time. > > 4) The people who really want GRUPI addresses should work on the scaling > issues with routing, and if that is ever solved then a new block of > addresses can be allocated for GRUPI. > > -David Borman This is the most sensible posting I've seen on this issue in the past month and a half. -- George Mitchell -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 11:52:41 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JqfUu027619; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2JqfTg027618; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:52:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JqUUu027603; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2Jqetr597732; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:52:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021952.gB2Jqetr597732@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:55:48 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: RE: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: eremmell@elmic.com Cc: Jim.Bound@hp.com, Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: du7ytivJHO95AeuWs1Y7tg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ed, > We are actually planning on having 2 completely separate interfaces in the > Mobile Node (when the MN is away from home): > > 1) virtual home interface (addresses are auto-configured on this interface > using Home Prefix Discovery when the MN is away from home). > 2) real device interface, with auto-configured CoA's. We refer to this as > the "mobile interface". > OK. > We have an API that enables a user to select an appropriate local/source > address matching a specified destination address (per default address > selection algorithm, although we have a simplified version), and they can > pass an interface handle to this API to restrict the source address to be on > the specified interface. In this way, they can either choose the source > address to be a home address (i.e. the interface is the virtual home > interface), or a CoA (the interface is the "mobile interface"). Then, they > would bind the selected local address to a socket. > So, you have a private API which does part of default address selection mechanism plus it can direct the implementation to choose homeaddr or COA by passing interface handle with the API. I was advocating a smiliar way of doing things by using a setsockopt() socket api. > So, we don't configure the home addresses on the same interface as the > CoA's. I'm not sure what your implementation is doing, I suspect you use the > same interface for both. > I don't have a mobile node implementation. I was thinking folks may use a logical interface for configuring homeaddr while away from home. Is your implementation based on linux ? Thanks for your input, -Samita > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > [mailto:owner-mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Samita > > Chakrabarti > > Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:52 AM > > To: alper@docomolabs-usa.com > > Cc: Jim.Bound@hp.com; Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr; > > ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default > > source address selection > > > > > > > > > > That's what I was aiming for; a short and simple advanced api socket > > > > extension doc as a guideline for MIPv6 compatible applications. > > > > > > > > > The default address selection draft contemplates about such an API: > > > > > > Implementations should provide a mechanism allowing an application > > > to reverse the sense of this preference and prefer care-of addresses > > > over home addresses (e.g., via appropriate API extensions). Use of > > > the mechanism should only affect the selection rules for the > > > invoking application. > > > > > > I think we should work on a separate Mobile IP API, that can encompass > > > this and more. > > > > > > Let me work a draft for MIPv6 adv-API extension. If you're thinking about > > the draft you folks already have, then as I mentioned before, that is in > > a different scope and perhaps it can address some of the mobileIP > > application > > level guidelines. I don't see a reason a why we need to have a > > single document > > which encompasses advanced socket APIs and application level APIs. > > > > Also, we would like to see some more comments on the list from folks that > > have not participated on this discussion yet, but have an opinion > > about it. > > > > Thanks, > > -Samita > > > > > > I agree that the server side apps do not require change, but some > > > > client side apps should change (like dns-client, printer-client etc.) > > > > so that they don't have to send packets all the way to the home-agent > > > > for doing the local job. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > -Samita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Alper E. YEGIN [mailto:alper@docomolabs-usa.com] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:49 PM > > > > > > To: Francis Dupont > > > > > > Cc: Samita Chakrabarti; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; > > > > > > mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to > > > > > > switch default source address selection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An alternative approach could be: If the application > > cares about > > > > > > > the source address, it can use the Mobile IP API to > > > > > > figure out which > > > > > > > ones are home address, which ones are care-of > > address, and than > > > > > > > explicitly "bind" the socket to the desired address. > > > > > > IMO, this would > > > > > > > also satisfy the needs of the Mobile IPv6 mobile node. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > => this is similar to what I implemented in the past. > > > > > > > But a function giving the list of addresses with status is > > > > > > not enough, > > > > > > > the best is to give the home address and the care-of > > address for a > > > > > > > destination. > > > > > > > > > > > > I see. When the mobile node has more than one pair of > > > > > > home_address-care_of_address, then it won't really know which > > > > > > one to pick. So, maybe, instead of exporting all this > > > > > > information to the apps and giving them the control, it might > > > > > > be better > > > > > > to enable the app to say "bind this socket to any address, > > > > > > preferably topologically correct (i.e., a CoA, or home > > > > > > address when at home)". I suspect this is what Samita had in > > > > > > her mind.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > As first info is getsockname() for bound sockets, > > > > > > > I added a clone of getsockname() which returns the real > > > > > > source address > > > > > > > after MIPv6 processing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or, don't change the getsockname(), but instead call > > > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() afterwards to identify if the > > > > > > address is bound to a care-of address. Note that this binding > > > > > > can dynamically any time, and subsequent > > > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() calls are sufficient to capture > > the changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > alper > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note this doesn't solve the need of a control for smarter choice > > > > > > > between Co@/H@. I proposed some and implemented two: use > > > > > > always the H@ > > > > > > > and use it but a Co@ when the destination is in the same > > > > > > link then a > > > > > > > Co@. They were global (still better than none :-). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > > > > > IPng Home Page: > > http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > > > > > FTP archive: > > ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > > > > > Direct all administrative requests to > > majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 2 12:59:24 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2KxOUu028102; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2KxOut028101; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2KxLUu028093; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2KxVbB008846; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10450; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:59:26 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <011001c29a45$7cf30f00$7a6015ac@AlperVAIO> From: "Alper E. YEGIN" To: "Samita Chakrabarti" Cc: , , References: <200212021835.gB2IZXtr566441@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:57:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > > I'd say for connected and bound sockets, getsockname() would return the > > > correct topological source address. > > > > But that'd break the getsockname() function, which should return the local > > binding of the socket. If the socket is bound to a home address, that > > address > > should be returned by the function, even though it might be also > > (Mobile IP-)bound to a care-of address. > > In order to bind() to a address it generally requires that the address > is locally configured. Sure. Both a home address and a care-of address can be locally configured at the same time. (regardless of one being on a logical interface, other on a physical interface). > I assumed that the suggestion was that the MN would > always have a home-address configured as a logical interface or some pseudo > interface. It seems a bit odd for a socket API to return a fake address > while it's bound to a different address. This part, I didn't get it. A socket can be bound to a home address, or a care-of address. Either case, socket API should treat them equally. Getsockname() should return the IP address that local endpoint is bound to, regardless of the type (i.e., home address vs care-of address, configured on physical vs. logical interface). > > That's why it's clean to direct the kernel to swtich the source address > selection mechanism from the default to the desired. > OK, this is about changing the address selection policy per application. This is about controlling the behavior of the kernel, not reading state from it. alper -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 03:00:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3B0qUu002951; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3B0p5W002950; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:00:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3B0mUu002943 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3B0wMq015215 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (gc-na5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.5]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA05677 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 03:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nmu.alcatel.fr (tcmh80.nmu.alcatel.fr [139.54.143.3]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/NETFR) with ESMTP id gB3B0oaX025862 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:00:51 +0100 Received: from nmu.alcatel.fr (houat [192.200.245.153]) by nmu.alcatel.fr (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01204 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:00:31 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3DEC8ECF.A6D587CF@nmu.alcatel.fr> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:00:31 +0100 From: christophe preguica X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: TCP MD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Does anyone know if TCP MD5 signature option (RFC 2385) used for MP-BGP is applicable for IPv6 ? Thanks. RFC 2385 Protection of BGP Sessions via the TCP MD5 Signature Option -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 05:58:17 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3DwHUu003485; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3DwH7W003484; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:58:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3DwEUu003477 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3DwNMq008049 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06496 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 06:58:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB3DwBv30976; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:58:11 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB3DvUPC093852; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:57:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212031357.gB3DvUPC093852@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: christophe preguica cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: TCP MD5 In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:00:31 +0100. <3DEC8ECF.A6D587CF@nmu.alcatel.fr> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:57:30 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: Does anyone know if TCP MD5 signature option (RFC 2385) used for MP-BGP is applicable for IPv6 ? => it should because RFC 2385 uses the pseudo-header (defined for each TCP over foo) for the network layer part... IMHO IPsec is far better but RFC 2385 is applicable if you don't have IPsec. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: of course you should have IPsec if you have IPv6 (:-)! -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 05:59:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3DxrUu003505; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3Dxq9v003504; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:59:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3DxnUu003497 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3DxtMq008308 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from galactica.it ([212.41.208.19]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA14472 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:59:47 -0800 (PST) From: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Received: from mail pickup service by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:51:39 +0100 Received: from Flemming.computer.org ([206.99.235.24]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:39:25 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by Flemming.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UATL337828215 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:39:43 -0500 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03927; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATLTjbZ027293; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATLTIUu012852; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gATLTIR7012851; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:29:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATLTFUu012844 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATLTPMq017297 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [130.155.191.236]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03279 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gATLSrgU027571; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:28:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200211292128.gATLSrgU027571@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: Mark_Andrews@isc.org, Keith Moore , Pekka Savola , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: even one reason why provably unique SL is needed? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:48:50 CDT." <5.1.0.14.0.20021129114311.0307f7a8@mail.windriver.com> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:28:53 +1100 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > "nearly unique" is not good enough. You want to be able to > > register these addresses in the ip6.arpa tree. > > Do you? How does this fit with the concept that unreachable > addresses should not be included in the DNS? Well a entry in the ip6.arpa tree is *not* an *address*. As for the forward entries the important thing is not to publish ambigious addresses. It really does not matter if you publish unreachable addresses especially if you have sorting rules which allow you to have a better than 50/50 chance (with two address) of making a connection the first time. This requires that the local resolver has some sorting rules which are required by RFC 103[45]. e.g. local sites first, then globals, then other sites. local sites first defaults the sites the machine is in but may be expanded to known locally connected sites. > As soon as we have any sort of private addressing (VPNs, firewalls > or any type of site-local addressing, I think we're stuck with some > sort of split DNS that includes local addresses in local name lookups, > but not in global ones, right? No. You are stuck with split DNS if you have ambigious addresses. You might have connection delays if you don't have good local policy to choose the right address but unless the application is broken you will get a connection. > Is the reverse look-up tree an exception to this? I suppose it would > have to be, if you want people from outside the site to be able to > identify the source of a leaked address... But, it's not clear how > this would work with mostly-unique addresses. It won't work with mostly-unique addresses and the addresses will leak and we will have to set up sacrificial servers to save the ip6.arpa servers like we currently hace sacrificial servers to save the in-addr.arpa servers. > > What does work is having truly unique addresses and delegating > > the reverse servers. > > Yes. Truly unique addresses are better for including in the reverse > DNS, even if they aren't routed globally. They also have the advantage > that if there is an overlap that is causing problems, it is possible > to find out what organization is actually registered to use that prefix. > > But, are these (fairly minor) benefits worth the cost of requiring a > registry, etc? Yes. Look at the current costs of supporting the sacrificial servers for RFC 1918 addresses. These servers get more queries per second than the root servers. Do we want to have to run sacrificial servers forever? Also you don't force a organization to do its DNS in-house. It can out-source its DNS maintenance if it wants to if you have truly unique addresses. Given the level of compentance I see with the DNS today out-sourcing is a good thing. Mark > Margaret -- Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:09:11 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3F9BUu004216; 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Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Hl7CQ018623; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Hl4Uu018616 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1HlFMq027232 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23074 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:47:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id JAA19307; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB1Hl4s16631; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 Received: from UNKNOWN (216.83.56.167, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdz41qKa; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:47:01 PST X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f X-mProtect: <200212011747> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021201093606.03035a70@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:46:58 -0800 To: Aidan Williams From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3DE5A75F.9060503@motorola.com> References: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4E7@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Aidan, >For each link, a router may automatically assign a site-local >address from an EUI-48 (ie a MAC address) using the following >address format: > > | 12 bits | 48 bits | 4 bits | 64 bits | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > | fef | router device ID | sub ID | machine interface ID | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > Figure 1: Address Format: fef0::/12 BTW, two bits in an EUI-48 (i.e., the g and u bits) are not needed if using this as a global token, so it could be easily compressed to 46 bits leaving two more bits for the subnet. I am not sure this helps very much with the other problems raised. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:10:26 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FAPUu004233; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3FAPJB004232; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:10:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FALUu004225 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3FAVbB017069 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from galactica.it ([212.41.208.18]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03483 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:10:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:59:17 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:35:05 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UATI0X4U10185 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:33:05 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06059; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATIO6NG021918; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATINcUu011059; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gATINcbh011058; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATINZUu011051 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATINibB005549 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07493 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: GUSL proposal (very crude) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:23:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD491@server2000> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: GUSL proposal (very crude) Thread-Index: AcKXLW0qTDeFiEzLSGSnSoxh8n9YIAApqTxQ From: "Michel Py" To: "Mark Smith" Cc: "Brian Carpenter" , "IPng Working Group" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gATINZUu011052 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark, > Mark Smith wrote: > Playing the devils advocate .... > Michel, can you describe, in a real world, nuts and > bolts manner, where your "site" boundary would be. I have tried to address this in the GUSL draft (under co-author review, link to be posted ASAP) Follows is the tentative text. Michel. 0. Meaning of "site" The word "site" appears to be understood differently by the community than it is loosely defined in [ADDRARCH]: > [ADDRARCH] > A "site" is, by intent, not rigorously defined, but is typically > expected to cover a region of topology that belongs to a single > organization and is located within a single geographic location, > such as an office, an office complex, or a campus. A personal > residence may be treated as a site (for example, when the > residence obtains Internet access via a public Internet service > provider), or as a part of a site (for example, when the residence > obtains Internet access via an employer's or school's site) It appears that "site" is used by the community as a shorter form of "end site" as described in [IPV6ASSIGN]. By extension, "site" has largely been used as a synonymous of "/48" and assimilated to the administrative boundaries of the organization being assigned an end-site prefix. This document uses "site" having the same meaning as "end site" as described in [IPV6ASSIGN]. [ADDRARCH] Deering, S. and R. Hinden, "IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture", http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg- addr-arch-v3-11.txt, October 2002. [IPV6ASSIGN] APNIC, ARIN, RIPE-NCC, "IPv6 Address Allocation and Assignment Assignment Policy", June 26, 2002. ftp://ftp.cs.duke.edu/pub/narten/global-ipv6-assign-2002-06-26.txt -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:13:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FDFUu004543; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3FDFsH004541; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:13:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FD9Uu004525 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3FDJbB017711 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from steinadler.fh-harz.de (steinadler.fh-harz.de [194.95.16.230]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05088 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:13:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from fischadler.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.222]) by steinadler.fh-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA12250F for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:13:07 +0100 Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.221]) by fischadler (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.0 ) ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:13:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (silberkraehe [127.0.0.1]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id H6JUB600.R0Y; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:13:54 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com ([192.18.98.34]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6GNZ400.D9A for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:04:16 +0100 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10502; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:58:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1LwFbF021521; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvkUu018999; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Lvjbn018998; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvfUu018991 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1LvrMq025875 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08807 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:57:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1LvVj04887; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:57:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Message-Id: <200212012157.gB1LvVj04887@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:24:18 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4F9@server2000> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:57:31 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate outside of their site. > Site-locals are perfect for this, if they are not limited to disconnected > sites. > > 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet access but do need to > communicate with selected external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). This > is GUPI. > > 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although this is not directly linked > to the multihoming issue, it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution > would provide it. > > I do not envision a large-scale deployment of IPv6 without providing all > three. Also, it would be a hell of a good idea if 2. could migrate to 3. why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:20:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FKFUu005731; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3FKFmw005730; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FKBUu005718 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3FKLbB019596 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from steinadler.fh-harz.de (steinadler.fh-harz.de [194.95.16.230]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23215 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:20:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from fischadler.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.222]) by steinadler.fh-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA122BF6 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:20:12 +0100 Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.221]) by fischadler (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.0 ) ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:20:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (silberkraehe [127.0.0.1]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id H6JUMQ00.415; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:20:50 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6GP1R00.N9U for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:27:27 +0100 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04500; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MDeMu027242; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MD8Uu019096; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1MD7ww019095; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MD4Uu019088 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MDFbB022818 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [130.155.191.236]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03705 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:13:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB1MCkgU033217; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Message-Id: <200212012212.gB1MCkgU033217@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Keith Moore Cc: "Michel Py" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:57:31 CDT." <200212012157.gB1LvVj04887@astro.cs.utk.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate outside of their site. > > Site-locals are perfect for this, if they are not limited to disconnected > > sites. > > > > 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet access but do need to > > communicate with selected external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). T > his > > is GUPI. > > > > 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although this is not directly linke > d > > to the multihoming issue, it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution > > would provide it. > > > > I do not envision a large-scale deployment of IPv6 without providing all > > three. Also, it would be a hell of a good idea if 2. could migrate to 3. > > why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? Keith are you sure you ment this? #2 works for #1 not the other way around. Mark -- Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:20:56 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FKuUu005778; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3FKtJO005777; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FKoUu005767 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3FL0bB019779 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from steinadler.fh-harz.de (steinadler.fh-harz.de [194.95.16.230]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09434 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from fischadler.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.222]) by steinadler.fh-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA123154 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:20:52 +0100 Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.221]) by fischadler (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.0 ) ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:20:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (silberkraehe [127.0.0.1]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id H6JUO400.P1J; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:21:40 +0100 Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6GQ4100.C8Z for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:50:25 +0100 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00820; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:44:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MicMu000175; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1MiAUu019339; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1MiAJb019338; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Mi6Uu019331 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MiIbB026170 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12372 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Subject: RE: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:44:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FB@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Thread-Index: AcKZhNFpB1otAexFTYiRCliojafm2gABRe6w From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB1Mi6Uu019332 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, >> Michel Py wrote: >> 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate >> outside of their site. Site-locals are perfect for >> this, if they are not limited to disconnected sites. >> 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet >> access but do need to communicate with selected >> external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). This >> is GUPI. >> 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although >> this is not directly linked to the multihoming issue, >> it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution >> would provide it. > Keith Moore wrote: > why doesn't #2 suffice for #1? [I transposed it back the way you meant] Because #2 does not exist today. You must provide #2 before you try to kill #1. Network administrators do not design production networks with promises. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 07:21:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FLDUu005806; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3FLDIe005805; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3FL4Uu005792 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3FLEMq026709 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from steinadler.fh-harz.de (steinadler.fh-harz.de [194.95.16.230]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12849 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:21:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from fischadler.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.222]) by steinadler.fh-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA122F45 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:21:03 +0100 Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de ([194.95.16.221]) by fischadler (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.0 ) ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:21:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (silberkraehe [127.0.0.1]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id H6JUOD00.G1L; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:21:49 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by silberkraehe.hs-harz.de (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6GQ9R00.I8M for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:53:51 +0100 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11184; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MdWMu029760; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1Md3Uu019290; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Md3IF019289; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1McxUu019282 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1MdBMq029737 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11014 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1Mbfj05240; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:37:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Message-Id: <200212012237.gB1Mbfj05240@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Mark.Andrews@isc.org cc: Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:12:46 +1100.") <200212012212.gB1MCkgU033217@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:37:41 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? > > Keith are you sure you ment this? > > #2 works for #1 not the other way around. right you are. I transposed them. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 08:21:54 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3GLsUu008481; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3GLsQA008480; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:21:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3GLoUu008473 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3GM0bB003307 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from galactica.it ([212.41.208.18]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27402 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:27:12 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:33:29 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UATH02RU06677 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:02:27 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03330; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATGrwNG011550; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATGrVUu010816; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gATGrULS010815; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:53:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gATGrRUu010808 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gATGrbbB024028 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01034 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:53:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.12]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17093; Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:52:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129114311.0307f7a8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:48:50 -0500 To: Mark.Andrews@isc.org From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: even one reason why provably unique SL is needed? Cc: Keith Moore , Pekka Savola , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200211252100.gAPL0CSd006358@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > "nearly unique" is not good enough. You want to be able to > register these addresses in the ip6.arpa tree. Do you? How does this fit with the concept that unreachable addresses should not be included in the DNS? As soon as we have any sort of private addressing (VPNs, firewalls or any type of site-local addressing, I think we're stuck with some sort of split DNS that includes local addresses in local name lookups, but not in global ones, right? Is the reverse look-up tree an exception to this? I suppose it would have to be, if you want people from outside the site to be able to identify the source of a leaked address... But, it's not clear how this would work with mostly-unique addresses. > What does work is having truly unique addresses and delegating > the reverse servers. Yes. Truly unique addresses are better for including in the reverse DNS, even if they aren't routed globally. They also have the advantage that if there is an overlap that is causing problems, it is possible to find out what organization is actually registered to use that prefix. But, are these (fairly minor) benefits worth the cost of requiring a registry, etc? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 08:25:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3GPrUu008691; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3GPrxi008690; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3GPnUu008680 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3GPxbB004105 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26579 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:25:54 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) id gB3GPW624832; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200212031625.gB3GPW624832@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: even one reason why provably unique SL is needed? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129114311.0307f7a8@mail.windriver.com> from Margaret Wasserman at "Nov 29, 2 11:48:50 am" To: mrw@windriver.com (Margaret Wasserman) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:31 -0800 (PST) Cc: Mark.Andrews@isc.org, moore@cs.utk.edu, pekkas@netcore.fi, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk % > "nearly unique" is not good enough. You want to be able to % > register these addresses in the ip6.arpa tree. % % Do you? How does this fit with the concept that unreachable % addresses should not be included in the DNS? % % Margaret the concept is flawed. ask yourself, unreachable from where? --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 10:57:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvNUu010108; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3IvM5E010107; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvGUu010093 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3IvQbB018967 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09958 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:57:36 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:26:39 +0100 Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2J20NP21141 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:36:23 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18522; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:31:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JUqbZ012438; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JUMUu027354; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2JUMir027353; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JUJUu027346 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JUUMq028805 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09535 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:30:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA05487; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB2JUHV06089; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:30:17 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212021930> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdgaYICm; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:30:15 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021202112716.03136180@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:30:11 -0800 To: Margaret Wasserman From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> References: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 18:57:36.0078 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7FB76E0:01C29AFD] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, >Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" >proposal? Yes, I am working on a "moderate usage" draft. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 10:57:41 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvfUu010129; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3IveqN010126; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvSUu010118 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3IvcMq026535 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10222 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:57:58 +0100 Received: from clement.computer.org ([63.84.220.160]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:27:25 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by clement.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UAUN372U28515 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:43:38 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04037; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gAUNaxNG028505; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gAUNaVUu016434; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gAUNaVDg016433; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:36:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gAUNaSUu016426 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gAUNacMq028463 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18322 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:36:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.1]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA18764; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:35:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021130182653.032cde90@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:35:31 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021123204700.02221ab8@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 18:57:58.0531 (UTC) FILETIME=[E55D8530:01C29AFD] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >What I am failing to understand is what we are looking for. The letter>GUPI model will drive the development of NATs. Why do you think so? In particular, why do you think that GUPI addresses would drive the development of NATs any more than the current IPv6 site-local addresses? Do you really think that it is realistic to just tell everyone to use provider-assigned addresses throughout their network? We've been getting feedback from network administrators that they need a form of local addressing that allows their internal numbering, firewall configuration, etc. to be independent of their ISP-provided addresses. People want to use site-locals for this, but the ambiguity of site-locals causes all sorts of problems for applications, routing protocols, transport protocols, etc. especially when running on site border nodes (nodes that are in more than one site at the same time). It is my belief that if we ignore this problem, and simply limit site- locals to disconnected networks (a la RFC 1918 addresses), then IPv6 NAT will arise to allow sites to separate internal addressing from external addressing. What we really need is a better way to solve this problem, one that doesn't have the problems of site-local addresses. And, that's why we're discussing GUPI addresses. Is there a better way to solve this problem that we haven't considered? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 10:57:41 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvfUu010127; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3IvevS010125; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvIUu010100; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3IvSbB018995; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10102; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:57:39 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:26:41 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2J110P18443 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:01:36 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20575; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2IrTbZ028276; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IqoUu026601; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2IqoY3026600; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2IqkUu026593; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2Iqutr571064; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021852.gB2Iqutr571064@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr Cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: BCtQjqn9NgGaBL2mVnIwVw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 18:57:39.0281 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9E43410:01C29AFD] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > (section 5 and 6 rule 4). The MIPV6 API should also take care of > choosing > temporary address and non-temporary address from the application level. > Also, there is a need to choose link-local or site-local address as > source > address (depending on the scope) for the MN while visiting (see below). > > => I disagree for the last point because it can be done using > the address selection policy table. The issue is for choices > which can't be coded in the table, i.e., mobility and temporary. > Yes, I aggree with your disagreement here. link-local source address (site-local perhaps out-of-scope now) can be handled by the default address selection draft. -Samita -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 10:58:11 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IwAUu010147; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3IwA9M010146; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:58:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvlUu010131; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3IvubB019240; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06025; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:57:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:58:15 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:26:44 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2I3LNP18177 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:57:59 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16982; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2InqNG011130; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2InIUu026521; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2InHT0026520; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com (jurassic [129.146.17.55]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2In6Uu026505; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from shubho (shubho.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.85.207]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with SMTP id gB2InHtr570228; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:49:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200212021849.gB2InHtr570228@jurassic.eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:52:25 -0800 (PST) From: Samita Chakrabarti Reply-To: Samita Chakrabarti Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection To: alper@docomolabs-usa.com Cc: Jim.Bound@hp.com, Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: P8vGdqLzY1HjT9xCjuyFAg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4 SunOS 5.9 sun4u sparc X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 18:58:15.0687 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF975170:01C29AFD] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > That's what I was aiming for; a short and simple advanced api socket > > extension doc as a guideline for MIPv6 compatible applications. > > > The default address selection draft contemplates about such an API: > > Implementations should provide a mechanism allowing an application > to reverse the sense of this preference and prefer care-of addresses > over home addresses (e.g., via appropriate API extensions). Use of > the mechanism should only affect the selection rules for the > invoking application. > > I think we should work on a separate Mobile IP API, that can encompass > this and more. Let me work a draft for MIPv6 adv-API extension. If you're thinking about the draft you folks already have, then as I mentioned before, that is in a different scope and perhaps it can address some of the mobileIP application level guidelines. I don't see a reason a why we need to have a single document which encompasses advanced socket APIs and application level APIs. Also, we would like to see some more comments on the list from folks that have not participated on this discussion yet, but have an opinion about it. Thanks, -Samita > > I agree that the server side apps do not require change, but some > > client side apps should change (like dns-client, printer-client etc.) > > so that they don't have to send packets all the way to the home-agent > > for doing the local job. > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > -Samita > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Alper E. YEGIN [mailto:alper@docomolabs-usa.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:49 PM > > > > To: Francis Dupont > > > > Cc: Samita Chakrabarti; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; > > > > mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to > > > > switch default source address selection > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > An alternative approach could be: If the application cares about > > > > > the source address, it can use the Mobile IP API to > > > > figure out which > > > > > ones are home address, which ones are care-of address, and than > > > > > explicitly "bind" the socket to the desired address. > > > > IMO, this would > > > > > also satisfy the needs of the Mobile IPv6 mobile node. > > > > > > > > > > => this is similar to what I implemented in the past. > > > > > But a function giving the list of addresses with status is > > > > not enough, > > > > > the best is to give the home address and the care-of address for a > > > > > destination. > > > > > > > > I see. When the mobile node has more than one pair of > > > > home_address-care_of_address, then it won't really know which > > > > one to pick. So, maybe, instead of exporting all this > > > > information to the apps and giving them the control, it might > > > > be better > > > > to enable the app to say "bind this socket to any address, > > > > preferably topologically correct (i.e., a CoA, or home > > > > address when at home)". I suspect this is what Samita had in > > > > her mind.. > > > > > > > > > As first info is getsockname() for bound sockets, > > > > > I added a clone of getsockname() which returns the real > > > > source address > > > > > after MIPv6 processing. > > > > > > > > Or, don't change the getsockname(), but instead call > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() afterwards to identify if the > > > > address is bound to a care-of address. Note that this binding > > > > can dynamically any time, and subsequent > > > > mip_get_one_mobile_node() calls are sufficient to capture the changes. > > > > > > > > alper > > > > > > > > > Note this doesn't solve the need of a control for smarter choice > > > > > between Co@/H@. I proposed some and implemented two: use > > > > always the H@ > > > > > and use it but a Co@ when the destination is in the same > > > > link then a > > > > > Co@. They were global (still better than none :-). > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 10:58:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IwDUu010154; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3IwDZA010151; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:58:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3IvmUu010135 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3IvwMq026629 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06043 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:57:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:58:16 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:26:42 +0100 Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2J0QRP20517 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:26:28 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12180; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:21:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JKhbZ009173; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JKDUu027226; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2JKDFe027225; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2JKAUu027218 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2JKLMq025418 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from frantic.weston.bsdi.com (frantic-dmz.weston.BSDI.COM [206.196.54.22]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11022 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:20:15 -0700 (MST) Received: (from dab@localhost) by frantic.weston.bsdi.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id gB2JJuC11685; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:19:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:19:56 -0600 (CST) From: David Borman Message-Id: <200212021919.gB2JJuC11685@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> To: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 18:58:16.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[F03713E0:01C29AFD] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > From: Keith Moore > Subject: Re: Taking two steps back (Was: Re: one question...) > Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:48:43 -0500 > > > 2) There seems to be a need for a globally unique version of Site Local > > addresses (GUSL), so we should just define a new block for them. > > These would require registration, and perhaps a fee, just like when > > you get a domain name. > > I think it's still up in the air as to whether these are really local > to a site in the sense that site-locals were assumed to be. In other > words, can they be routed between sites by private agreement? Sure, why not? I don't think we can stop it from happening. And I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. The problem with trying to globally route PI addresses is the routing table explosion it causes to the global internet. If a site wants to route SLs or GUPI addresses with another site over a private link, then they are just bloating their own routing tables (but probably not enough bloat to cause serious problems). I see 3 options: 1) State that PI addresses (SL, GUSL/GUPI, GRUPI) are not routeable between sites, even over private links. 2) State that PI addresses (SL, GUSL/GUPI, GRUPI) are only routeable between sites over private links. 3) State the PI addresses are not routeable over the global internet. I don't think that stating #1 is going to prevent #2, so I'd vote for #3. As long as people don't impact the global internet, how they choose to configure private links is up to them. > > 4) The people who really want GRUPI addresses should work on the scaling > > issues with routing, and if that is ever solved then a new block of > > addresses can be allocated for GRUPI. > > or they can just start routing GUPIs. Yes, but as others have pointed out, if there are filters everywhere to block them it might be easier to create a new block for GRUPI addresses than trying to "upgrade" the GUPI addresses. -David Borman -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 11:29:43 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3JTgUu014768; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3JTgUH014767; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:29:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3JTcUu014760 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3JTmbB002286 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01470 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:29:26 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:46:06 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2D220P28527 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 05:38:04 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27607; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2DUQNG020196; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2DTxUu022705; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2DTwps022704; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:58 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2DTsUu022697 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2DU5Mq020104 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13079 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:29:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB2DTij11941; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:29:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212021329.gB2DTij11941@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:51:31 EST.") <5.1.0.14.0.20021202074803.025d4928@mail.windriver.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 08:29:44 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 19:29:26.0890 (UTC) FILETIME=[4AEA3CA0:01C29B02] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > However, I don't think that we can responsibly do that and claim that the > route scaling issue is SEP. Is there any reason to believe that we _can_ > actually find a scalable way to route to "portable" PI addresses? I don't think we need to solve the global routing problem for PI addresses to be beneficial. PI addresses are extremely useful even if they can only be routed by private agreement between networks. Trying to make PI addresses be suitable for global routing as a pre-condition for having PI addresses strikes me as self-defeating. It's nice if it works out that way, but it should not be considered a necessary condition. My fear is that trying to solve that problem will delay PIs enough that we'll be stuck with site locals. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 11:32:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3JWGUu014901; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3JWGZH014900; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:32:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3JWCUu014890 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3JWMMq010016 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13481 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:32:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:32:38 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 06:35:05 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2D014P26877 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 05:01:04 -0800 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA03944; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CrfNG015519; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CrCUu022350; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CrC3h022349; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2Cr8Uu022342 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CrJMq015463 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20590 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:53:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2Cr0225745; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:53:00 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:53:00 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 19:32:38.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD376800:01C29B02] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ like > globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any network > where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a default > filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator > would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in > his completely isolated network). I don't think site-locals are special enough to be specifically disallowed by default in BGP. > I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals > need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider further > details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic > mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes > implementations larger and more cluttered. > > This was the "limited usage" model discussed at the Atlanta meeting. > > There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob Hinden in > the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, but would not > allow sites to border each other (site-local addresses would be > filtered in firewalls). The details of this model haven't been > documented in detail, but it has the advantage that it would allow > the use of site-locals on intermittently connected networks (ones that > may not always have global addresses available from their ISP, or where > their ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). > > The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these > two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between > them. One of the issues, I think, is that neither one was well-enough > documented for people to understand the details. So, I'm working on > documentation for the "limited usage" proposal. > > Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" > proposal? > > Margaret > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 11:36:02 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3Ja1Uu015384; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB3Ja1vV015383; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:36:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB3JZvUu015370 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB3Ja6bB004899 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05093 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:36:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:36:27 +0100 Received: from Flemming.computer.org ([206.99.235.24]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:18:11 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by Flemming.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB160N5800965 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 01:23:05 -0500 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17978; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB16CBbZ000469; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB16BhUu017316; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB16Bhlt017315; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB16BeUu017308 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB16BoMq005544 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26119 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:11:44 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) id gB16BWM12640; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200212010611.gB16BWM12640@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: even one reason why provably unique SL is needed? In-Reply-To: <1038345488.1458.439.camel@dupy> from Mark Smith at "Nov 27, 2 08:18:07 am" To: ipv6@nosense.org (Mark Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 22:11:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: smb@research.att.com, itojun@iijlab.net, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2002 19:36:27.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[4556AA70:01C29B03] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I did this once upon a time, when I held the authoritative delegations for the RFC 1918 space. Unfortunately, I waited two years before adding the entries. by then, routes had leaked and we had 100's of sites (generally corporations) have their internal SNMP-based monitoring systems collapse into a single data point that read "read-rfc1918-for details." The calls were... "energetic" and the DNS entries were removed within a few hours. If we are going to take this tactic, doing from the getgo is the right thing to do. May I do this for the ip6.int space? % I like it :-) % % % % On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 07:57, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: % > In message <20021126020443.BE0444B22@coconut.itojun.org>, itojun@iijlab.net wr % > i % > tes: % > >>>Require the DNS server at the edge of the site be authoritative for the % > >>>whole of fec0::/10 or blackhole the queries. % > >>> % > >>>(I don't think too many people would even want to register site-locals in % > >>>the _global_ reverse DNS, queriable by anyone -- remember, they're not to % > >>>be used globally, and reverses in and itself are already considered a % > >>>"security hazard" by some.) % > >>> % > >>>Let's not go down the path of putting site-locals anywhere near the global % > >>>ip6.arpa. % > >> % > >>Sure -- but to keep the load off the root, we need to be *very* sure % > >>that sites do pretend to be authoritative for them. % > > % > > will it help if we ship c.e.f.ip6.int/arpa zone files with BIND, % > > just like 1.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa? % > % > Thinking about it a little more, there's a seriously obscene thing % > to do here: ship the config files with a * PTR record, resolving to % > something like "read.RFC.1918.for.these.addresses." % > % > % > % > -------------------------------------------------------------------- % > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List % > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng % > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng % > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com % > -------------------------------------------------------------------- % % % % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List % IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng % FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng % Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % -- --bill -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:07 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44w7Uu018537; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44w6Mf018536; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44w0Uu018515 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wAMq011436 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08004 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44wYwt000577; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:09:55 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021130182653.032cde90@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <0BAC2E9A-06E2-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> What I am failing to understand is what we are looking for. The >> GUPI model will drive the development of NATs. > > Why do you think so? Well, see my mail to Keith. I think that people have to much strange ideas on what NATs will give them, that anything that will have a "scope" will lead them down that road. What I am failing to understand is what benefits the complexity and additional administration of either GUPIs or GUSLs will give us over just assigning plain IPv6 addresses. > In particular, why do you think that GUPI addresses would drive the > development of NATs any more than the current IPv6 site-local > addresses? I think both have the potential to drive us down that road. SLs probably more than the other. > Do you really think that it is realistic to just tell everyone to use > provider-assigned addresses throughout their network? No. But I fail to see what we gain with creating a special block from where we assign PI addresses. The RIRs can equally well assign PI space from the current IPv6 unicast space. Sure, this will lead to growth in the size of the DFZ, but that is a routing problem. I just get the feeling that we are using to much duck tape to work around a different problem. > We've been getting feedback from network administrators that they need > a form of local addressing that allows their internal numbering, > firewall > configuration, etc. to be independent of their ISP-provided addresses. So let's give them PI space from the RIRs pools of IPv6 addresses. Currently I am more worried about the lack of assignments from the RIRs rather than them assigning to many. > People want to use site-locals for this, but the ambiguity of > site-locals > causes all sorts of problems for applications, routing protocols, > transport > protocols, etc. especially when running on site border nodes (nodes > that > are in more than one site at the same time). > > It is my belief that if we ignore this problem, and simply limit site- > locals to disconnected networks (a la RFC 1918 addresses), then IPv6 > NAT will arise to allow sites to separate internal addressing from > external addressing. So let's give them PI space!!! We don't really need more abbreviations, we have the address space so far, we are still far from hitting the roof of the routing table in IPv6.... This would solve the uniqueness problem and take away the NAT worries. > > What we really need is a better way to solve this problem, one that > doesn't > have the problems of site-local addresses. And, that's why we're > discussing > GUPI addresses. Is there a better way to solve this problem that we > haven't considered? > "Real" addresses? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:10 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wAUu018540; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44w9w7018539; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44w2Uu018522 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wCMq011445 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08007 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44wawt000583; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:27:39 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4F9@server2000> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > No. Scores won't buy it. Let's not forget that one of the reasons > behind the considerable success of NAT, despite its huge annoyances, > it because NAT does provide some of the PI perks. PA is good for > dial-up users and home/soho setups. Bigger, you find NAT, because for > many the no-sweat ISP switch is worth more than the NAT-induced > problems. > > In my experience, the number one reason for going to RFC1918/NAT is an > ISP change. The ISP pulls out of a market or tanks, the customer looks > at my proposal for renumbering, chokes at the bottom line, and says > "make sure we don't have to go through this again next time the ISP > bellies up". Welcome to NAT. > I am not completely convinced about the above. It would be really interesting to understand why enterprises decided to do NATs instead of PI space. My guess is that many of the companies that use NAT do it simply because they can not justify the /24. These probably don't qualify as enterprises, but nevertheless there has to be a reason to why some enterprises go for NAT, others for PI space. From my years at a large carrier I can't say there is a pattern. I wonder if it isn't as simple as knowledge. Few know how to actually apply for PI space. Best regards, - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wFUu018550; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44wEUq018549; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44w5Uu018529 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wEbB027166 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08141 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44wIwt000547; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:24:45 +0100 Subject: Re: globally unique site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Michel Py , Margaret Wasserman , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Mark Smith From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <1038434255.1458.503.camel@dupy> Message-Id: <716B5299-06A9-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1) the default ACLs and route filters for the rather large ISP I used > to > work for. Unfortunately I don't get a chance to work in the core of > that > network, so I'm making a judgement on what was supposed to be the > practice rather than reality. If you are filtering you will not see it...:) > 2) I logged into router-server.cerf.net, couldn't find any network 10/8 > in the bgp and route tables, looked at their incoming BGP route > filters, > they weren't filtering for it, so their upstream ASs looked to be > filtering it. My experience is that it is pretty short lived once leaked as it get detected. > With the RFC1918 leaks you see, do they disappear pretty quickly after > they appear, indicating somebody took action to stop the leak ? It > would > also be interesting to see if the origin AS of these RFC1918 leaks is > one of the private ones. Yes. Look at the historic CIDR and "Philip Smith reports". They give a pretty good indication of what is floating around (looking at that normally tells you that RFC1918 space is not the worst problem...:) ) - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wNUu018553; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44wMeI018552; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wAUu018541 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wKbB027190 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08172 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44whwt000601; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:31:04 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith >>> above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated >>> to me >>> that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting >>> site-locals >>> was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable >>> scheme >>> for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for >>> subsequent discussion. >> >> So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define >> "limit" then? > > I had proposed limiting the use of site-locals to completely isolated > networks (i.e. test networks and/or networks that will never be > connected to other networks). This would give administrators of > those networks an address space to use (FECO::/10) for those networks > that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by > ISPs, > etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" > network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses > (and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... Well, even though I still think that this will create more problems that it solve, it would at least keep that current state (which is pretty bad though). > > If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ > like > globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any > network In implementations - yes. For application layer protocols like IP-Sec, VoIP, SIP etc they still have the potential to create problems if misused (and they will be) > I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals > need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider > further > details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic > mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes > implementations larger and more cluttered. What I would like the chairs to do is go and ask the applications area to write a draft on the impact on applications of SLs, GUPIs, GULS and "real" IPs. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:45 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wiUu018577; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44wi5s018576; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wQUu018555 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44waMq011502 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08257 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44wuwt000621; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:45:58 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4FE@server2000> Message-Id: <3A27AC9A-0700-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Multi6 is not chartered to develop solutions. This point has been made > in Atlanta again. The development of multihoming solutions has moved > outside the IETF a year ago. ...and I still argue that we don't even understand the problem, yet we are already talking about solutions.... - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:48 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wlUu018580; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44wlKn018579; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wSUu018562 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wcMq011507 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08141 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44x3wt000632; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:59:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:32 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4A5@server2000> Message-Id: <097AF082-0745-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > GUPI would not be globally routable. It would be a way to make sites > privately communicate, as neither the "limited usage" or the "moderate > usage" of site-locals provides this. > And compared to global addresses the advantage is? Besides not having to go to a RIR? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 3 20:58:50 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wnUu018583; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB44wnOb018582; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB44wTUu018566 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB44wdMq011509 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08276 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:58:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB44wrwt000615; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 20:48:27 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202074803.025d4928@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <30CCC738-06F8-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > However, I don't think that we can responsibly do that and claim that > the > route scaling issue is SEP. Is there any reason to believe that we > _can_ > actually find a scalable way to route to "portable" PI addresses? When we hit 1k non-6bone routes find me at the following IETF meeting and I will buy you dinner. We can then talk about what to do. > > It seems like we may need some consultation/cooperation between the > multi6 > group and the IPv6 group, to see if we can come up with a full > solution to > provide scalable, routable PI addresses. > This I agree. What seriously worries me is that we are trying to use large amount of super-glue to get around what is really a routing issue, and also a issue to which we have very little data to back up the claims. Do for example know for certain that there are that many sites that wishes to multihome? Do we know if they are fortune 100s or home DSL subscribers? Who of these are willing to renumber when changing service provider? I say that we still are in the infancy of IPv6 and trying to second guess what the network will look like when it is of the same size as the IPv4 network. If I am to be completely honest - I would like to see somewhat more than ~250 assingments worldwide before I start making any conclusions, even on IPv6 happening at all. That said, *something* will have to replace IPv4. I am just worried we have not seen this starting to happen yet. there is simply nothing that is that appealing about IPv6 yet. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:21:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48LFUu019347; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48LFUK019343; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48LBUu019335 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48LLMq010672 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26197 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:21:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:21:10 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:11:51 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2C0UCP25483 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:30:12 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08417; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:24:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CN8bZ002921; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CMEUu021937; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CMExd021936; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM3Uu021919 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMEMq011982 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25727 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMVb8001988; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:49:50 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200211271727.gARHRql01307@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <29D2CF2E-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:21:10.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A3676C0:01C29B6E] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> The GUPI model will drive the development of NATs. > > that's just nuts. GUPIs don't encourage NATs any more than any other > aspect of IPv6. It depends... > > I'm beginning to think that citing NATs as a reason for not doing > something in IPv6 is like comparing someone to Hitler in a political > discussion - it's such an extreme statement that it can't be evaluated. > Let me clarify what I meant to say. I do think that we need a functional equivalent of todays PI addresses. If we make these "special" in any way, so that they be either a dedicated address block or we impose the restriction that these should not be routable, someone will come up with a translation device from globally routable addresses to the PI equivalent. Now, we can all think what we want of NATs, my experience as a network operator (in the ISP sense) is that it will create problems on the application layer - just as we are experiencing today. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:21:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48LKUu019353; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48LKU6019352; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48LEUu019342 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48LObB025270 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26205 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:21:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:21:10 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:11:48 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB2C1U0P25509 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:30:36 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08425; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:24:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CN2bZ002908; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM4Uu021922; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CM373021920; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CLvUu021912 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CM8Mq011963 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07445 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMTb8001985; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:45:25 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "Michel Py" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200211271725.gARHPXl01280@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <8C43853F-05EB-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:21:10.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A3405C0:01C29B6E] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> remember of the voting in Atlanta we had consensus for a limited >> version of site-locals...not creating a separate address structure? > > as I recall, we had consensus for limiting site-locals, > as well as widespread support for the idea that PI globals were needed. > > it's not an either-or. > Uh? Why would we want both? I think we have way to many address groups already.... I clearly see a need for PI space or something that would fill that role. I don't see why we can't assign it in the way we are doing today. It will create a routing scaling issue but let's deal with that for what it is. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:45:02 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48j2Uu020580; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48j26a020579; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48iwUu020572 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48j8Mq018516 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00834 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:44:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:45:16 +0100 Received: from stibitz.computer.org ([206.99.235.25]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:21 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2C2D7817921 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:49:07 -0500 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16646; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:43:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CglbZ005621; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CgJUu022247; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CgIiV022246; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CgFUu022239 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CgQbB005575 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04702 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:42:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.3]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA14246; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:39:49 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:45:16.0531 (UTC) FILETIME=[77EB3C30:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 12:52 PM 12/2/2002 +0100, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: >>My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith >>above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated to me >>that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting site-locals >>was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable scheme >>for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for >>subsequent discussion. > >So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define "limit" >then? I had proposed limiting the use of site-locals to completely isolated networks (i.e. test networks and/or networks that will never be connected to other networks). This would give administrators of those networks an address space to use (FECO::/10) for those networks that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by ISPs, etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses (and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ like globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any network where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a default filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in his completely isolated network). I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider further details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes implementations larger and more cluttered. This was the "limited usage" model discussed at the Atlanta meeting. There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob Hinden in the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, but would not allow sites to border each other (site-local addresses would be filtered in firewalls). The details of this model haven't been documented in detail, but it has the advantage that it would allow the use of site-locals on intermittently connected networks (ones that may not always have global addresses available from their ISP, or where their ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between them. One of the issues, I think, is that neither one was well-enough documented for people to understand the details. So, I'm working on documentation for the "limited usage" proposal. Bob, are you or anyone else working to document the "moderate usage" proposal? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:45:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jLUu020619; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48jLcY020618; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48j6Uu020589 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48jGMq018535 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00930 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:45:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:45:28 +0100 Received: from stibitz.computer.org ([206.99.235.25]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:14 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2C0XD817347 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:33:14 -0500 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25412; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CN8NG012050; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CMGUu021940; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2CMF1v021939; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2CM4Uu021926 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMEMq011985 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (tlp1.cobweb.autonomica.se [130.244.10.138]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25735 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 05:22:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB2CMXb8001991; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:22:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:52:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Keith Moore , Margaret Wasserman , Michel Py , Christian Huitema , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: "Alan E. Beard" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:45:28.0921 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F4DCC90:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith > above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated to > me > that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting site-locals > was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable scheme > for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for > subsequent discussion. So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define "limit" then? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:45:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jSUu020622; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48jReR020621; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jAUu020596 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48jKMq018557 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00959 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:45:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:45:30 +0100 Received: from stibitz.computer.org ([206.99.235.25]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:18 +0100 Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2E22A823220 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:38:12 -0500 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26216; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:29:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2ET7NG001474; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2ESXUu022875; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2ESX1n022874; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2ESUUu022867 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2ESfMq001405 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05536 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:28:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2ESDJm024244; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:28:14 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gB2ESC0F062286; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:28:12 +0100 Received: from dhcp23-27.zurich.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71332 from ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:27:56 +0100 Message-Id: <3DEB6DD4.1A236977@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:27:32 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mark.Andrews@isc.org Cc: Michel Py , Aidan Williams , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: globally unique site local addresses References: <200211272311.gARNB1gU008686@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:45:30.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[8032AE50:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk It could work. It would just be an administrative nightmare. Brian Mark.Andrews@isc.org wrote: > > > > Brian Carpenter wrote: > > > So I am unconditionally against any scheme that > > > generates prefixes longer than /48. > > > > Agreed. > > > > Michel. > > Why? You can just get a additional prefixes if you need > them. I would prefer it to be the same size as what is > recommended for PA space but could work with a different > size. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Mark Andrews, Internet Software Consortium > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark.Andrews@isc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:45:35 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jYUu020628; 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Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:17 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2G26Y831382 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:42:34 -0500 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24153; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:37:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GaoNG028198; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GaLUu024977; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2GaLv6024976; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2GaHUu024969 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2GaSMq028041 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21897 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:36:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:36:34 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E500@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKaBw6R6bl/WPYYQQK8K3zuFUJoigAGOg2g From: "Michel Py" To: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB2GaIUu024970 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:45:37.0078 (UTC) FILETIME=[842A7560:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Keith Moore wrote: > I don't think we need to solve the global routing > problem for PI addresses to be beneficial. PI > addresses are extremely useful even if they can only > be routed by private agreement between networks. > Trying to make PI addresses be suitable for global > routing as a pre-condition for having PI addresses > strikes me as self-defeating. It's nice if it works > out that way, but it should not be considered a > necessary condition. It is not, but asking for PI with no plan to manage the risk of "privately routed PI" ending up "globally routed PI mess" is a non-starter. One of the surest ways to kill IPv6 is to make it the same crud as IPv4 with more bits. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:45:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jXUu020625; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48jXsR020624; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48j3Uu020582; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48jDMq018525; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00896; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:45:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:45:25 +0100 Received: from stibitz.computer.org ([206.99.235.25]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:20 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2G0D2829194 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:13:02 -0500 Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.45]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01922; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:06:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2G5qNG019560; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2G5DUu023737; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2G5DSB023736; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2G54Uu023719; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2G5EbB006371; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02283; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:05:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2G4xv13867; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:04:59 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2G4RPC089168; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:04:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021604.gB2G4RPC089168@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: Samita Chakrabarti cc: mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, samita.chakrabarti@Sun.COM Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:53:47 PST. <3DDC66DB.94ACBF97@eng.sun.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:04:27 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:45:25.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D082250:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: I am looking into possible MIPv6 APIs as an extension to IPv6 Adv-API document. The following requirements in MIPv6 spec indicates that there is a need for Socket API which will allow the MIPv6 applications to choose COA as mobile node's source address (in a visited network), while default address selection draft prefers home address as the default source address (section 5 and 6 rule 4). The MIPV6 API should also take care of choosing temporary address and non-temporary address from the application level. Also, there is a need to choose link-local or site-local address as source address (depending on the scope) for the MN while visiting (see below). => I disagree for the last point because it can be done using the address selection policy table. The issue is for choices which can't be coded in the table, i.e., mobility and temporary. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: in the current KAME there is a global policy table, it should be useful to have it in the context (i.e., per process but as shared as possible). The syntax of the table and its default is in the address selection document, tools and API should be described somewhere (and if possible not in the advanced MIPv6 API). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 00:46:05 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48k4Uu020638; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB48k4u4020637; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:46:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB48jgUu020630; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB48jqMq018639; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06801; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:46:06 +0100 Received: from stibitz.computer.org ([206.99.235.25]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:36:15 +0100 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by stibitz.computer.org (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.1) with ESMTP id UB2G11J828506 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:01:55 -0500 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24891; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:55:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FtBbZ003433; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FsFUu023238; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB2FsF3S023237; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB2FsCUu023227; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB2FsMbB003203; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16109; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 08:54:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2FsCv13316; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:54:12 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB2FraPC089031; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:53:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200212021553.gB2FraPC089031@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: "Bound, Jim" cc: "Alper E. YEGIN" , "Samita Chakrabarti" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, mobile-ip@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: [mobile-ip] Re: Proposal for MIPv6 APIs to switch default source address selection In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:26:08 EST. <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C32@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:53:36 +0100 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 08:46:06.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[957AADD0:01C29B71] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In your previous mail you wrote: What you did would work with what I stated too. After the kernel gets done the getsockname could send back all data but I think we would need a new api and options to the kernel? => as I wrote I used a "clone" of the getsockname() system call (it was a getsockopt() which returns a sockaddr_in6 structure, its code was like the getsockname() but finished by a lookup in the H@ -> Co@ mapping table... very simple, just cut & paste) Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: it should take less than one hour to add it to a Mobile IPv6 implementation on a BSD-like OS. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 01:05:04 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4954Uu025820; 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Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1HlFMq027232 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23074 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:47:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id JAA19307; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB1Hl4s16631; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:47:04 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212011747> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (216.83.56.167, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdz41qKa; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:47:01 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021201093606.03035a70@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:46:58 -0800 To: Aidan Williams From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3DE5A75F.9060503@motorola.com> References: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4E7@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 09:05:21.0125 (UTC) FILETIME=[45E9B150:01C29B74] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Aidan, >For each link, a router may automatically assign a site-local >address from an EUI-48 (ie a MAC address) using the following >address format: > > | 12 bits | 48 bits | 4 bits | 64 bits | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > | fef | router device ID | sub ID | machine interface ID | > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > Figure 1: Address Format: fef0::/12 BTW, two bits in an EUI-48 (i.e., the g and u bits) are not needed if using this as a global token, so it could be easily compressed to 46 bits leaving two more bits for the subnet. I am not sure this helps very much with the other problems raised. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 01:05:19 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB495JUu025845; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB495JoI025844; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:05:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB495CUu025828 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB495LbB005855 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from galamonitor.galactica.it ([212.41.208.251]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27222 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by galamonitor.galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:05:39 +0100 Received: from berry.computer.org ([63.84.220.201]) by galactica.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:53:57 +0100 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by berry.computer.org (Switch-2.2.4/Switch-2.2.4) with ESMTP id UB1M06VU28425 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:06:31 -0800 Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00368; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1LwFbZ021521; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvkUu018999; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB1Lvjbn018998; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB1LvfUu018991 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB1LvrMq025875 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08807 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 14:57:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB1LvVj04887; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:57:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212012157.gB1LvVj04887@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:24:18 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E4F9@server2000> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:57:31 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 09:05:39.0984 (UTC) FILETIME=[51275900:01C29B74] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1. Local, private addresses that do not communicate outside of their site. > Site-locals are perfect for this, if they are not limited to disconnected > sites. > > 2. Unique addresses that do not need public Internet access but do need to > communicate with selected external sites (example customer/supplier VPN). This > is GUPI. > > 3. Global network layer PI identifiers. Although this is not directly linked > to the multihoming issue, it is likely that a scalable multihoming solution > would provide it. > > I do not envision a large-scale deployment of IPv6 without providing all > three. Also, it would be a hell of a good idea if 2. could migrate to 3. why doesn't #1 suffice for #2? -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 01:58:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB49wFUu028037; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB49wFFq028036; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB49wBUu028023 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB49wLbB014995 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25846 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12relay01.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.22]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB49vUWi029706; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:57:32 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay01.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gB49vPCU075448; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:57:29 +0100 Received: from dhcp222-57.zurich.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75364 from ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:57:20 +0100 Message-Id: <3DEDD168.D22AB13@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:56:56 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Cc: Michel Py , Margaret Wasserman , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > > > No. Scores won't buy it. Let's not forget that one of the reasons > > behind the considerable success of NAT, despite its huge annoyances, > > it because NAT does provide some of the PI perks. PA is good for > > dial-up users and home/soho setups. Bigger, you find NAT, because for > > many the no-sweat ISP switch is worth more than the NAT-induced > > problems. > > > > In my experience, the number one reason for going to RFC1918/NAT is an > > ISP change. The ISP pulls out of a market or tanks, the customer looks > > at my proposal for renumbering, chokes at the bottom line, and says > > "make sure we don't have to go through this again next time the ISP > > bellies up". Welcome to NAT. > > > > I am not completely convinced about the above. > > It would be really interesting to understand why enterprises decided to > do NATs instead of PI space. My guess is that many of the companies > that use NAT do it simply because they can not justify the /24. These > probably don't qualify as enterprises, but nevertheless there has to be > a reason to why some enterprises go for NAT, others for PI space. From > my years at a large carrier I can't say there is a pattern. I wonder if > it isn't as simple as knowledge. Few know how to actually apply for PI > space. Sure. Their ISP told them it was hard to get space, and/or someone told them lies about NAT being a security feature. No mystery. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 01:58:54 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB49wrUu028086; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB49wrVi028085; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB49wmUu028075 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB49wwMq003515 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smail2.alcatel.fr (gc-na5.alcatel.fr [64.208.49.5]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26087 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nmu.alcatel.fr (tcmh80.nmu.alcatel.fr [139.54.143.3]) by smail2.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/NETFR) with ESMTP id gB49wjaX007417; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:58:45 +0100 Received: from nmu.alcatel.fr (houat [192.200.245.153]) by nmu.alcatel.fr (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07797; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:58:25 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3DEDD1C1.978CB8B5@nmu.alcatel.fr> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:58:25 +0100 From: christophe preguica X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francis Dupont CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: TCP MD5 References: <200212031357.gB3DvUPC093852@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for your answer, I agree that IPsec should be prefered. Kind regards. Francis Dupont wrote: > In your previous mail you wrote: > > Does anyone know if TCP MD5 signature option (RFC 2385) used for MP-BGP > is applicable for IPv6 ? > > => it should because RFC 2385 uses the pseudo-header (defined for each > TCP over foo) for the network layer part... IMHO IPsec is far better > but RFC 2385 is applicable if you don't have IPsec. > > Regards > > Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr > > PS: of course you should have IPsec if you have IPv6 (:-)! > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 03:07:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4B78Uu028793; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4B78bu028792; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:07:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4B74Uu028785 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4B7DbB024133 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07377 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:07:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.6]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA27442; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 02:59:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204054523.01e55068@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:54:10 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , In-Reply-To: <0BAC2E9A-06E2-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021130182653.032cde90@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >No. But I fail to see what we gain with creating a special block from >where we assign PI addresses. The RIRs can equally well assign PI space >from the current IPv6 unicast space. Sure, this will lead to growth in the >size of the DFZ, but that is a routing problem. I think we're arguing the same side here... I'd like to see addresses available to enterprises (and home users, for that matter) with the following properties: 1) globally unique 2) provider independent (AKA "portable") 3) globally routable 4) indistinguishable from provider-allocated addresses by routers, applications, etc. However, the concern that has been voiced by many in the IPv6 WG is that property (3) cannot be provided in a scalable manner. This has led to a belief that we can't have property (4), because ISPs will need to know which prefix advertisements to accept, and which to block... >So let's give them PI space!!! We don't really need more abbreviations, we >have the address space so far, we are still far from hitting the roof of >the routing table in IPv6.... I don't care what we call it... I read your draft on multi6 regarding "longer prefix" multihoming, and was surprised to see your assertion regarding how far we are from having a route scaling problem in IPv6... But, do you really think that we will continue to have fairly small routing tables if we allow every enterprise (and home?) to get its own portable address allocation? Or would we need to come up with some way to assign these addresses in an aggregable manner. Are you proposing a particular mechanism that would allow aggregation of PI address allocations? I know that there is a geography-based PI allocation proposal in mutli6, but I don't understand how they produce aggregation. There are multiple providers in every city, and those providers networks may not be topologically "close" to each other, even though they are geographically close. >This would solve the uniqueness problem and take away the NAT worries. True, but it would cause IPv6 routing table growth... Do you have an answer for that? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 04:38:54 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4CcsUu029182; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4Ccrxb029181; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:38:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4CcnUu029174 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4CcxMq023096 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA02234 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB4Ccdj04133; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:38:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212041238.gB4Ccdj04133@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist cc: "Michel Py" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:58:32 +0100.") <097AF082-0745-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:38:39 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > GUPI would not be globally routable. It would be a way to make sites > > privately communicate, as neither the "limited usage" or the "moderate > > usage" of site-locals provides this. > > > > And compared to global addresses the advantage is? > > Besides not having to go to a RIR? not having to have a connection to the public v6 internet in order to get an address block, or if you are connected, having a prefix which is stable across changes in ISPs. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 07:33:04 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4FX4Uu029696; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4FX4OF029695; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4FX0Uu029688 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4FXAMq022552 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03583 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:32:47 -0800 Received: from 157.54.8.155 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:32:47 -0800 Received: from red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.2.168]) by inet-hub-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:32:47 -0800 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:32:47 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.82]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3710.0); Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:32:36 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6803.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:32:46 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Thread-Index: AcKbhIATGvv8hwmeQX2jBIVtFcRv+AAJU9Nw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2002 15:32:36.0775 (UTC) FILETIME=[5F708370:01C29BAA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB4FX1Uu029689 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > 1) globally unique > 2) provider independent (AKA "portable") > 3) globally routable > 4) indistinguishable from provider-allocated addresses by > routers, applications, etc. Margaret, Routing solutions have to consider have to be considered with two angles, politics and graph theory. The points you are making may be great politics, but until the ghost of Dijkstra comes out with a solution, graph theory still tells us that (2) and (3) are contradictory. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 07:58:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4FwrUu000138; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4FwqmW000137; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:58:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4FwnUu000130 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:58:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4FwwMq028446 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11439 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:58:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB4FvJj05056; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:57:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212041557.gB4FvJj05056@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Christian Huitema" cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" , "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:32:46 PST.") Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:57:19 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > but until the ghost of Dijkstra comes out with a > solution, graph theory still tells us that (2) and (3) are > contradictory. or until some other things change, e.g. - ISPs are willing to route suboptimally (artifically make the graph simpler) - we work out a way to compute routes on-the-fly (caching ones that have been recently used) rather than pre-computing the entire table (this probably implies that we push route computation to the edges and source-route through the core) - we require certain interconnection paths (e.g. requiring major population centers to have a central peering point) in order to make the graph simpler in other words, a substantial change to the routing architecture (heavy technical change) and/or enforced constraints on interconnection (heavy political change) even if we solve the route computation problem, it's hard for me to imagine with forwarding tables containing ~ 2**48 prefixes. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 08:19:02 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4GJ2Uu000244; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4GJ1O2000243; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4GIwUu000235 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4GJ7Mq004199 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23843 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:19:02 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4C5@server2000> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKbcYzNr80wqeVBQ1eucCttg3KWCwAPvK+g From: "Michel Py" To: "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB4GIwUu000236 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be > to define "limit" then? This is a little simplified. I would say the remaining question is how to manage the risk they end up being a mess in the global routing table, and scalability issues. These are the issues why we don't currently have PI. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 14:40:46 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4MekUu003224; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB4MekxI003223; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB4MehUu003216 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB4MeqMq017959 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22500 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:40:51 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:40:34 -0800 Message-ID: <032f01c29be6$28c815e0$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4C5@server2000> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk To address the subject line: The only way to enforce unreachability is to make the prefix ambiguous, and thereby remove the value of trying to propagate it. Any definition of a globally unique space will have to discuss how it scales *when* (not if) it gets announced into the routing system. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 16:03:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB503qUu003478; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB503q7n003477; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB503mUu003470 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB503wMq015143 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08931 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , "'Aidan Williams'" Cc: Subject: RE: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:03:41 -0800 Message-ID: <036c01c29bf1$c50b7040$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021201093606.03035a70@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB503nUu003471 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I agree with Brian that there are issues with DNS & configured databases, but the event frequency of this is generally low enough I would consider it worth the risk. The problem I do have with it is the lack of aggregation in the IGP that would result. While flat routing is not a problem for a small network, it wouldn't work when the network reached any significant size. >From my perspective, there is room here to support an automated set as well as an aggregatable set. If we took one /16 from the fec/10, say feff, and used the next 48 bits from the router EUI to create the /64, there would be no management required, but the networks that wanted explicit control could filter that /16 in the IGP, and still have plenty of SL space to manage as aggregates. How that works after the EUI-48's run out is a different question... Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Bob Hinden > Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 9:47 AM > To: Aidan Williams > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) > > > Aidan, > > >For each link, a router may automatically assign a > site-local address > >from an EUI-48 (ie a MAC address) using the following address format: > > > > | 12 bits | 48 bits | 4 bits | 64 bits | > > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > > | fef | router device ID | sub ID | machine interface ID | > > +---------+------------------+----------+----------------------+ > > Figure 1: Address Format: fef0::/12 > > BTW, two bits in an EUI-48 (i.e., the g and u bits) are not > needed if using > this as a global token, so it could be easily compressed to > 46 bits leaving > two more bits for the subnet. > > I am not sure this helps very much with the other problems raised. > > Bob > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 16:37:26 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB50bPUu003596; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB50bPe7003595; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:37:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB50bLUu003588 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB50bVbB026700 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19581 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB50bJj07781; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:37:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212050037.gB50bJj07781@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alh-ietf@tndh.net cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:40:34 PST.") <032f01c29be6$28c815e0$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:37:19 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > The only way to enforce unreachability is to make the prefix ambiguous, which in turn causes the set of problems that make us want to avoid site-locals. maybe we don't need to 'enforce' unreachability as a matter of protocol. for instance, there's no 'enforcement' of IP packets being routed to their destinations. sometimes they're routed elsewhere (as in interception proxies) but we've generally done okay without 'enforcement'. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 16:59:49 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB50xnUu003741; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB50xnik003740; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB50xjUu003733 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB50xsMq001605 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00687 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:59:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id gB50xmIr019740 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:59:48 -0700 (MST) Received: [from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id RAA04863 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:59:46 -0700 (MST)] Received: from motorola.com (awhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gB50xi7C002239 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:59:44 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3DEEA500.C956F165@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:59:44 +1100 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) References: <036c01c29bf1$c50b7040$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Tony Hain wrote: > > The problem I do have with it is the > lack of aggregation in the IGP that would result. While flat routing is > not a problem for a small network, it wouldn't work when the network > reached any significant size. Define 'significant'. According to Brian Carpenter (28/11/2002): > > The question is, at what scale does route aggregation > begin to matter? The sort of VPN-based or merger-and- > acquisition based networks we are talking about don't seem > to be anywhere near that scale; we know that flat routing > of thousands of prefixes is possible. So it may be > philosophically unsettling, but I don't think it is > operationally unsettling. I freely admit my experience with routing tables is insufficient to know where this cut-off is, but the gist I've been getting is 'hundreds - easy', 'thousands - doable'. Am I hearing wrong? -- Andrew White Andrew.E.White@motorola.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 18:06:35 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB526ZUu004149; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB526Y60004148; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB526VUu004141 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB526ebB020758 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10192 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:06:41 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: , Subject: RE: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:06:23 -0800 Message-ID: <037f01c29c02$e9662b90$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3DEEA500.C956F165@motorola.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk You are correct, but approaching 10,000 flat routes will cause the IGPs to show their limits. (In case you were thinking that was an outrageous number, there are IPv4 networks with that many subnets, and they can only exist through aggregation.) The point is that we need to allow for managed aggregation in the scheme, but that does not preclude automatomation for a subset of the SL space. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Andrew White > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:00 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) > > > Tony Hain wrote: > > > > The problem I do have with it is the > > lack of aggregation in the IGP that would result. While > flat routing > > is not a problem for a small network, it wouldn't work when the > > network reached any significant size. > > Define 'significant'. According to Brian Carpenter (28/11/2002): > > > > The question is, at what scale does route aggregation > > begin to matter? The sort of VPN-based or merger-and- acquisition > > based networks we are talking about don't seem to be anywhere near > > that scale; we know that flat routing of thousands of prefixes is > > possible. So it may be philosophically unsettling, but I > don't think > > it is operationally unsettling. > > I freely admit my experience with routing tables is > insufficient to know where this cut-off is, but the gist I've > been getting is 'hundreds - easy', 'thousands - doable'. > > Am I hearing wrong? > > -- > Andrew White Andrew.E.White@motorola.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 18:09:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB529NUu004180; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB529NWY004179; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB529KUu004171 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB529TMq020008 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11793 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:09:29 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:09:11 -0800 Message-ID: <038001c29c03$4dfa27f0$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <200212050037.gB50bJj07781@astro.cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk If we don't enforce unreachability through ambiguity, we need to provide an alternative that won't crush the routing system. BTW: I am updating my geo draft based on the comments from the last round, so hopefully it will have fewer places to throw technical rocks at. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: moore@cs.utk.edu [mailto:moore@cs.utk.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:37 PM > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses > > > > The only way to enforce unreachability is to make the prefix > > ambiguous, > > which in turn causes the set of problems that make us want to avoid > site-locals. > > maybe we don't need to 'enforce' unreachability as a matter > of protocol. for instance, there's no 'enforcement' of IP > packets being routed to > their destinations. sometimes they're routed elsewhere (as > in interception > proxies) but we've generally done okay without 'enforcement'. > > Keith > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 18:13:12 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB52DCUu004244; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB52DCah004243; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:13:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB52D8Uu004236 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB52DHbB022121 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04141 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB52D8j08421; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:13:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212050213.gB52D8j08421@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alh-ietf@tndh.net cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:09:11 PST.") <038001c29c03$4dfa27f0$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:13:08 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > If we don't enforce unreachability through ambiguity, we need to provide > an alternative that won't crush the routing system. I suspect we all agree that crushing the routing system would be bad . It seems like the question is what mechanism (other than ambiguity) would be sufficient to prevent that happening. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 18:26:27 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB52QRUu004414; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB52QRCu004413; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB52QOUu004406 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB52QXbB025206 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19161 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:26:34 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:26:16 -0800 Message-ID: <039901c29c05$b06e8dc0$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <200212050213.gB52D8j08421@astro.cs.utk.edu> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB52QOUu004407 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > If we don't enforce unreachability through ambiguity, we need to > > provide an alternative that won't crush the routing system. > > I suspect we all agree that crushing the routing system would > be bad . It seems like the question is what mechanism (other > than ambiguity) > would be sufficient to prevent that happening. I still believe the fundamentals of: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hain-ipv6-pi-addr-03.txt are sound from an aggregation standpoint. Michele & Iljitsch have an alternative that could be described as a derivative of the international dial-plan: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-py-multi6-gapi-00.txt The problem is not defining approaches that have reasonable scaling properties. It is getting agreement that we don't need a perfect answer. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 20:32:38 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB54WbUu005387; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB54WbbY005386; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB54WYUu005379 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB54WhMq021170 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03674 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:37 -0800 (PST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:32:46 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4D5@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: EUI-48 globally unique site-locals (GUSL) Thread-Index: AcKcA3evCeYgTgn2T4mHUnbhe26+VgAE8D1Q From: "Michel Py" To: "Tony Hain" , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB54WYUu005380 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Tony Hain wrote: > You are correct, but approaching 10,000 flat routes will > cause the IGPs to show their limits. (In case you were > thinking that was an outrageous number, there are IPv4 > networks with that many subnets, and they can only exist > through aggregation.) The point is that we need to allow > for managed aggregation in the scheme, but that does not > preclude automatomation for a subset of the SL space. Agreed. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 21:51:11 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB55pAUu005557; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB55pAt3005556; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB55p7Uu005549 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB55pGMq003129 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15757 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:51:11 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: GUSL / GUPI summary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:51:19 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E512@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: GUSL / GUPI summary Thread-Index: AcKcBkIccyuWfIV7SaarjUAsu/VcgQAFX7Ow From: "Michel Py" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB55p7Uu005550 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk IPv6 folk, I tried to summarize below the GUSL / GUPI deal. We are pursuing two tracks here: 1. Uniqueness/limitation of site-locals: Two currents: 1.1 Limit site-locals to disconnected sites. Margaret is preparing a draft. 1.2 make site-locals unique (remove ambiguity). Also called GUSL. Two drafts to come: Bob and Michel+Charlie. Non-routability of site-locals could be guaranteed By the combination of default discards and of course by the local scope of such addresses. In *both* cases, SLs or GUSLs can *not* be routed outside the site, which means that for inter-site communications we need GUPIs. 2. Not-making-a-mess of GUPIs. GUPI = Globally unique, not globally routable. The first sad truth is that there is no consensual enforcement mechanism can guarantee that GUPIs will not end up being a global PI mess, IPv4-style. The second sad truth is that there is no consensus for un-aggregated PI today. The third sad truth is that there is no consensus either in giving away un-aggregated PI now and try to clean it later. The combination of the second and third sad truths is why we don't have IPv6 PI today. Therefore, GUPI candidates are indeed scalable (which very likely means aggregatable) global PI solutions. As a side note, this topic has been the quest for the Holy Grail of IPv6 multihomers since 1995 for what I have references of. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 23:19:30 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB57JUUu005749; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB57JU3S005748; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:19:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB57JRUu005741 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB57JaMq019625 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21561 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:19:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB57J8R24964; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:19:08 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:19:08 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Michel Py cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: GUSL / GUPI summary In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E512@server2000> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Michel Py wrote: > 1.1 Limit site-locals to disconnected sites. > Margaret is preparing a draft. > > 1.2 make site-locals unique (remove ambiguity). > Also called GUSL. Two drafts to come: > Bob and Michel+Charlie. > > Non-routability of site-locals could be guaranteed > By the combination of default discards and of course > by the local scope of such addresses. > > In *both* cases, SLs or GUSLs can *not* be routed > outside the site, which means that for inter-site > communications we need GUPIs. There is no technical reason I can see why inter-site communications couldn't use GUSL's. I would see the necessarity of working around default discards if you want to interconnect two site-local domains as a feature, not a problem. -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 4 23:33:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB57XDUu005879; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB57XCvp005878; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:33:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB57X8Uu005871 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB57XIMq021659 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26941 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:33:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB57X5j10307; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 02:33:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212050733.gB57X5j10307@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: GUSL / GUPI summary In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 04 Dec 2002 21:51:19 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E512@server2000> Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:33:05 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The first sad truth is that there is no consensual enforcement mechanism can guarantee that GUPIs will not end up being a global PI mess, IPv4-style. There's no consensus enforcement mechanism that can guarantee anything else about IP operation either, but somehow it often seems to work. The second sad truth is that there is no consensus for un-aggregated PI today. The third sad truth is that there is no consensus either in giving away un-aggregated PI now and try to clean it later. There's no consensus for what to do with SLs either. Getting consensus for what to do with SLs might require a consensus on GUPIs. You seem to be saying that because we don't have consensus today on GUPIs that no reasonable solution exists. I think we're still exploring the solution space. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 5 14:08:00 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB5M7xUu009595; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB5M7xea009594; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB5M7uUu009587 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB5M86Mq022161 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27934 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:08:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.33]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26799; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:07:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205170427.01df4bf8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:05:20 -0500 To: "Michel Py" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: GUSL / GUPI summary Cc: In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E512@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At 09:51 PM 12/4/2002 -0800, Michel Py wrote: >IPv6 folk, > >I tried to summarize below the GUSL / GUPI deal. >We are pursuing two tracks here: I am not sure that we have general agreement that there should be two courses. I, for one, do not think that we should create two different types of addresses... Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 5 14:47:32 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB5MlWUu009964; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB5MlWEk009963; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB5MlTUu009956 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB5MldbB013255 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16997 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:34 -0800 (PST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: GUSL / GUPI summary MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:47:44 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4D9@server2000> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: GUSL / GUPI summary Thread-Index: AcKcquDbsc8oYYb6RGyH9VY7pZjbEwABSLbg From: "Michel Py" To: "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB5MlTUu009957 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > I am not sure that we have general agreement that there > should be two courses. I, for one, do not think that > we should create two different types of addresses... Now you got me lost. If you say site-locals should not be used for external connectivity, how are you going to do GUPIs without creating another type of address? Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 6 06:39:17 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB6EdGUu014158; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB6EdGg5014157; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:39:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB6EdDUu014150 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB6EdMbB009259 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02627 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.38]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA19620; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:38:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206092546.028c3b18@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:32:20 -0500 To: "Michel Py" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: GUSL / GUPI summary Cc: In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD4D9@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Michel, It is my personal opinion that we should leave site-local addresses as-is and strictly limit their use to completely disconnected, isolated networks. I also think that we should work on a way to offer provider- independent IPv6 addressing, but I think that these should be global addresses, not site-locals. While it is possible that ISPs will not advertise these addresses in global routing tables, I do not think that they should be limited to a "site", or treated as scoped addresses (with zone IDs, etc. as in the scoped addressing architecture). I think that they should be global addresses that may be filtered at administrative boundaries (and _will_ be filtered at some boundaries, if we can't find an aggregable way to allocate them). I do not, personally, think that we gain much by trying to improve current site-locals to be more unique. Margaret At 02:47 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, Michel Py wrote: > > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > I am not sure that we have general agreement that there > > should be two courses. I, for one, do not think that > > we should create two different types of addresses... > >Now you got me lost. If you say site-locals should not be used for >external connectivity, how are you going to do GUPIs without creating >another type of address? > >Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 6 17:44:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB71iYUu017560; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB71iYC3017559; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB71iUUu017552 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB71iebB020105 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08517 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:43 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Michel Py'" Cc: Subject: RE: GUSL / GUPI summary Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:44:31 -0800 Message-ID: <048201c29d92$30443e40$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206092546.028c3b18@mail.windriver.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB71iVUu017553 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > It is my personal opinion that we should leave site-local > addresses as-is and strictly limit their use to completely > disconnected, isolated networks. 1) It is not possible for the IETF to restrict their use to completely isolated networks. 2) It is not a requirement that a connected network not use them. The only reasonable argument here is that the IETF may choose to leave the details of such use undocumented, and not spend time addressing the DNS issues. > > I also think that we should work on a way to offer provider- > independent IPv6 addressing, but I think that these should be > global addresses, not site-locals. While it is possible that > ISPs will not advertise these addresses in global routing > tables, I do not think that they should be limited to a > "site", or treated as scoped addresses (with zone IDs, etc. > as in the scoped addressing architecture). I think that they > should be global addresses that may be filtered at > administrative boundaries (and _will_ be filtered at some > boundaries, if we can't find an aggregable way to allocate them). I agree with the need for PI, and for those who would like to provide comments, the current state of the updates to my approach can be found at: http://www.tndh.net/~tony/ietf/ipv6piaddressformat-04.txt & http://www.tndh.net/~tony/ietf/ipv6piaddressusage-04.txt I found a way to change the grid sizes and origin so now all of Europe is in one logical grouping. > > I do not, personally, think that we gain much by trying to > improve current site-locals to be more unique. We might provide an informational document that provides guidance to sites to randomize the upper 38 bits to avoid potential problems with mergers later. We don't need to specify a standard mechansim, but might suggest a couple of reasonable stratigies. Tony > > Margaret > > > At 02:47 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, Michel Py wrote: > > > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > > I am not sure that we have general agreement that there should be > > > two courses. I, for one, do not think that we should create two > > > different types of addresses... > > > >Now you got me lost. If you say site-locals should not be used for > >external connectivity, how are you going to do GUPIs without > creating > >another type of address? > > > >Michel. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 6 18:29:56 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB72TuUu017737; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB72TuUL017736; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB72TqUu017729 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB72U2Mq005326 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28682 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB72Tkj08248; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:29:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212070229.gB72Tkj08248@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alh-ietf@tndh.net cc: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Michel Py'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: GUSL / GUPI summary In-reply-to: (Your message of "Fri, 06 Dec 2002 17:44:31 PST.") <048201c29d92$30443e40$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:29:46 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > It is my personal opinion that we should leave site-local > > addresses as-is and strictly limit their use to completely > > disconnected, isolated networks. > > 1) It is not possible for the IETF to restrict their use to completely > isolated networks. yes, but it is possible for IETF to recommend that their use be so restricted, which is what I assume Margaret was suggesting. all IETF standards are just sets of recommendations. but just like with any other aspect of a standard, if a network or host or app chooses not to follow the recommendation, it's not guaranteed to work well, or at all. > 2) It is not a requirement that a connected network not use them. no, it's just a good idea for connected networks to not use them, and this is also something that IETF could recommend. > The only reasonable argument here is that the IETF may choose to leave > the details of such use undocumented, and not spend time addressing the > DNS issues. we know that use of SLs without restrictions will cause problems. it's not reasonable to pretend otherwise or to fail to disclose those problems. nor would it be consistent with the rfc 2026 requirements for standards. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 7 02:29:06 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB7AT5Uu018884; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0/Submit) id gB7AT5tx018883; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta0+Sun/8.12.7.Beta0) with ESMTP id gB7AT2Uu018876 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB7ATBbB027674 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA07573 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 03:29:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.4]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA16402; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 02:28:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021207051340.02a59cc0@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 05:28:02 -0500 To: From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: GUSL / GUPI summary Cc: "'Michel Py'" , In-Reply-To: <048201c29d92$30443e40$237ba8c0@eagleswings> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206092546.028c3b18@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Tony, At 05:44 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, Tony Hain wrote: >Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > It is my personal opinion that we should leave site-local > > addresses as-is and strictly limit their use to completely > > disconnected, isolated networks. > >1) It is not possible for the IETF to restrict their use to completely >isolated networks. I realize that the IETF cannot enforce such a restriction. But, we can write a standard that says "these addresses are intended for use on isolated networks and must not be used on non-isolated networks" (or equivalent). We can also document the problems that are likely to occur (presumably in a companion Info or BCP document) if site-local addresses are used on connected networks. I am working on a document that outlines the problems and recommends placing limits on the IETF-advocated/supported use of site-locals, and I believe that others are working on alternative proposals. >2) It is not a requirement that a connected network not use them. I'm not sure what you mean... >The only reasonable argument here is that the IETF may choose to leave >the details of such use undocumented, and not spend time addressing the >DNS issues. Actually, I think it would be quite reasonable for the IETF to provide a strong recommendation against using site-locals on connected networks, and to document the problems that they cause. >We might provide an informational document that provides guidance to >sites to randomize the upper 38 bits to avoid potential problems with >mergers later. We don't need to specify a standard mechansim, but might >suggest a couple of reasonable stratigies. I wouldn't try to stop this sort of approach if others think it is valuable. I just don't think that it solves the larger problems caused by site-local addresses, and I'm not sure that its benefits are worth the effort. Real PI independent addresses are the only real solution to this problem, IMO. So, I'd like to see if we can find a way to provide PI addresses in IPv6. I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and I have been refining my thinking... In order to provide real PI addresses, we have both a policy issue and a technical issue, both of which need to be solved. The policy issues is that registries are currently set-up to provide addresses to service providers for further delegation to customers (enterprises, homes, etc.). In order to supply PI addresses, this would have to change. I don't know what type of difficulties would arise in making this change -- address allocaton policy isn't something I know very much about, but I guess I'll have to learn. The technical issue is that we don't want to allocate non-aggregable addresses that will show up in the global routing table. Tony, you seem to have a good start on one approach to solving this problem. Are there other well-developed proposals? What are the current issues/weaknesses to your approach that will need to be resolved before it is workable, if any? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 8 20:24:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94Opgs022963; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB94Opci022962; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:24:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94Omgs022955 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB94OvbB010040 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01171 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:24:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB94PKwt012100; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:25:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:42:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <4275EE72-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith >>> above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated >>> to me >>> that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting >>> site-locals >>> was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable >>> scheme >>> for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for >>> subsequent discussion. >> >> So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define >> "limit" then? > > I had proposed limiting the use of site-locals to completely isolated > networks (i.e. test networks and/or networks that will never be > connected to other networks). This would give administrators of > those networks an address space to use (FECO::/10) for those networks > The first question that comes to mind here then is - why would we need a /10 for this? That more than the currently totally allocated address space.... > that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by > ISPs, > etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" > network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses > (and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... Yes, but that didn't really stop anyone.... > If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ > like > globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any > network > where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a > default > filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator > would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in > his completely isolated network). The problem I see (and have been beaten to death here) is that people WILL connect them to the Internet. We have applications that can't handle this and that will break, and we will have really hard times implementing them. > I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals > need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider > further > The above said - I will agree with you. Personally I think that we should use the opportunity of IPv6 to fix some of the design flaws of IPv4. One of them is that the shortage of address space led us to create RFC1918. We have the opportunity fix this, but there are to many people out there who don't see this as a benefit. As applications that don't work across NATs they will becomes more popular this will change - I remember having a discussion with a VPN customer who was telling me that a great invention NATs was. He then realized that buying VOIP transit from us would have saved him quite a lot of money, but he of course could not get that as he was behind a NAT. I guess they are still trying to figure out to get rid of it... Anyway, although I don't like what you suggest above - I think it is the only think that we can get some sort of consensus for and move on. But I think that we need to learn from the RFC1918 mistake and make sure we include a enforcement method. > details of the proposal. I'm actually NOT proposing any automatic > mechanism to enforce this restriction, as I just think that makes > implementations larger and more cluttered. Probably, but see above. > There was also a "moderate usage" proposal put forth by Bob Hinden in > the meeting, which would allow the use of site-local, but would not > allow sites to border each other (site-local addresses would be > filtered in firewalls). The details of this model haven't been > documented in detail, but it has the advantage that it would allow > the use of site-locals on intermittently connected networks (ones that > may not always have global addresses available from their ISP, or where > their ISP-provided addresses may change on each connection). Well, to me the intermittently connected networks are covered above. If they have no network access, fine. If they do, they don't need SLs. Actually, what I am missing is why they couldn't use link locals when off-line, but never mind. > The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these > two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between Wait - to ONE of them? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 8 20:25:03 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94P3gs022973; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB94P3Xs022972; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94Owgs022965 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB94P8bB010068 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14336 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB94PNwt012103; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:25:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:43:35 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Keith Moore" , "Margaret Wasserman" , To: "Michel Py" From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E500@server2000> Message-Id: <7B16F518-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > It is not, but asking for PI with no plan to manage the risk of > "privately routed PI" ending up "globally routed PI mess" is a > non-starter. One of the surest ways to kill IPv6 is to make it the same > crud as IPv4 with more bits. > We will have to solve the problem of a larger crud with IPv6 than what we have in IPv4 anyway. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 8 20:25:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94PSgs022997; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB94PSGC022996; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB94POgs022987 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB94PYMq005507 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14426 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB94Pxwt012127; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:25:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:52:15 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204054523.01e55068@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <1305E2DB-093B-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB94PPgs022990 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> No. But I fail to see what we gain with creating a special block from >> where we assign PI addresses. The RIRs can equally well assign PI >> space from the current IPv6 unicast space. Sure, this will lead to >> growth in the size of the DFZ, but that is a routing problem. > > I think we're arguing the same side here... Agreed. > I don't care what we call it... I don't think that this business requires more abreviation inflation....:) > I read your draft on multi6 regarding "longer prefix" multihoming, and > was > surprised to see your assertion regarding how far we are from having a > route scaling problem in IPv6... You where not at the rebellion/ad-hoc/let's get out of here and go for bee multi6 meeting on Thursday in Atlanta. What I (and I think Thomas) said, was that we simply don't know this yet. With ~250 non 6bone routes in the DFZ we can't really telä if this is a scaling problem or not. When I configured my first BGP router we had just hit above 25k routes and people where telling me this was the end. I see a problem, but not for v6, and not now. We have no idea of how popular multihoming will be or what the impacts of cost etc will be. Maybe every mobile device will be multihomed, maybe the costs are to high? No one knows. We nee more data and experience. One thing I have been think of. Do we know what the increased prefix-length does to implementations and the effect on convergence times? What I would like to do is have someone load a bunch of routers up with the current 130k routes but with a prefix length of 128n bits, what happens? What is the cost? > > But, do you really think that we will continue to have fairly small > routing > tables if we allow every enterprise (and home?) to get its own portable > address allocation? Or would we need to come up with some way to > assign these addresses in an aggregable manner. In the cast above - no. But with 250 routes I am more worried about IPv6 not happening at all than us running out of scaling. You still have the dinner at stake with me. I guess that we will have (with good margin) a better understanding of the problem and the solutions in advance to a real scaling problem. > > Are you proposing a particular mechanism that would allow aggregation > of > PI address allocations? Not in the draft I have worked on now. In futuer? Yes, we will need a solution to the scaling problem, but that needs to be achieved with a routing solutions as well as perhaps a solution to addresses. > True, but it would cause IPv6 routing table growth... Do you have an > answer for that? > Without a question! But now we need to but time and deployment more than anything else. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 03:17:00 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9BH0gs023895; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9BGxcQ023894; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:16:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9BGugs023887 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9BH6Mq028572 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from daakghar.controlnet.co.in (daakghar.controlnet.co.in [202.54.116.74]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA17905 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:16:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from digambar ([192.168.4.1]) by dakiya.controlnet.co.in (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6UNE700.DQ8 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:48:07 +0530 Message-ID: <012101c29f73$decfc910$e20aa8c0@digambar> From: "Digambar Rasal" To: References: <4275EE72-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Subject: Ipv6 enabled Switches and routers ! Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:42:32 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, we are process of changing network to Ipv6 and looking for switches and routers those are supporting Ipv6 or Ipv6 and Ipv4 . If anybody has idea about it please let me know Digambar Rasal Controlnet India Pvt Ltd Verna Goa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 03:34:45 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9BYigs023997; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9BYiOI023996; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9BYfgs023989 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9BYpbB002090 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nosense.org (247.cust3.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.158.247]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10146 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 03:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF673B2F5; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:34:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Ipv6 enabled Switches and routers ! From: Mark Smith To: Digambar Rasal Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <012101c29f73$decfc910$e20aa8c0@digambar> References: <4275EE72-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> <012101c29f73$decfc910$e20aa8c0@digambar> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 09 Dec 2002 22:34:39 +1100 Message-Id: <1039433683.11956.101.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This page should be a good place to start : http://www.ipv6.org/impl/index.html On Mon, 2002-12-09 at 22:12, Digambar Rasal wrote: > Hi, > > we are process of changing network to Ipv6 and looking for switches and > routers those are supporting Ipv6 or Ipv6 and Ipv4 . If anybody has idea > about it please let me know > > Digambar Rasal > Controlnet India Pvt Ltd > Verna Goa. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 04:06:47 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9C6kgs024121; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9C6kLi024120; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:06:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9C6hgs024113 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9C6rbB005739 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:06:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsnt.future.futsoft.com ([203.197.140.35]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06311 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:06:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from kailash.future.futsoft.com (unverified) by fsnt.future.futsoft.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:39:41 +0530 Received: from sivarka (sivarka.future.futsoft.com [10.20.6.73]) by kailash.future.futsoft.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id gB9C4658027936; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:34:06 +0530 Reply-To: From: "Sivaramakrishnan A" To: "'Digambar Rasal'" , Subject: RE: Ipv6 enabled Switches and routers ! Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:35:47 +0530 Message-Id: <002201c29f7b$50452de0$4906140a@future.futsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <012101c29f73$decfc910$e20aa8c0@digambar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Our IPv6 supports Router functionality for platforms like VxWorks, QNX, OSE, etc... Please have a look at www.futsoft.com ~sivaram -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Digambar Rasal Sent: Monday, 9 December 2002 4:43 PM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Ipv6 enabled Switches and routers ! Hi, we are process of changing network to Ipv6 and looking for switches and routers those are supporting Ipv6 or Ipv6 and Ipv4 . If anybody has idea about it please let me know Digambar Rasal Controlnet India Pvt Ltd Verna Goa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** This message is proprietary to Future Software Limited (FSL) and is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or confidential information and should not be circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is intended. If you have received this message in error, please notify the originator immediately. 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FSL accepts no responsibility for loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted by this email including damage from virus. *************************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 05:05:32 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9D5Wgs024440; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9D5W3w024439; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:05:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9D5Sgs024430 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9D5bbB013112 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15585 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:05:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA07163; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:02:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212091302.IAA07163@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:02:35 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 Author(s) : R. Gilligan, S. Thomson Filename : draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2002-12-6 The de facto standard application program interface (API) for TCP/IP applications is the 'sockets' interface. Although this API was developed for Unix in the early 1980s it has also been implemented on a wide variety of non-Unix systems. TCP/IP applications written using the sockets API have in the past enjoyed a high degree of portability and we would like the same portability with IPv6 applications. But changes are required to the sockets API to support IPv6 and this memo describes these changes. These include a new socket address structure to carry IPv6 addresses, new address conversion functions, and some new socket options. These extensions are designed to provide access to the basic IPv6 features required by TCP and UDP applications, including multicasting, while introducing a minimum of change into the system and providing complete compatibility for existing IPv4 applications. Additional extensions for advanced IPv6 features (raw sockets and access to the IPv6 extension headers) are defined in another document [4]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-6140257.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-09.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-6140257.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 05:52:09 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Dq9gs024789; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9Dq9XS024788; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:52:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Dq6gs024779 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9DqFMq017566 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se ([193.194.136.237]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11602 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:52:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gB9DqYwt012245; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:52:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:52:33 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Michel Py" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200212041238.gB4Ccdj04133@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: <777E97BF-0B7D-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> GUPI would not be globally routable. It would be a way to make sites >>> privately communicate, as neither the "limited usage" or the >>> "moderate >>> usage" of site-locals provides this. >>> >> >> And compared to global addresses the advantage is? >> >> Besides not having to go to a RIR? > > not having to have a connection to the public v6 internet in order to > get an address block, or if you are connected, having a prefix which > is stable across changes in ISPs. > Having a connection or not is a policy decision. Stable addresses is an issue on creating PI space. There is no real need to make a block allocation for this. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 05:57:27 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9DvRgs024847; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9DvRnK024846; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:57:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9DvNgs024839 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:57:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9DvXbB020455 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 05:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19208 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:57:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB9DvEj01038; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:57:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212091357.gB9DvEj01038@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist cc: Keith Moore , "Michel Py" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 2002 14:52:33 +0100.") <777E97BF-0B7D-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:57:14 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > not having to have a connection to the public v6 internet in order to > > get an address block, or if you are connected, having a prefix which > > is stable across changes in ISPs. > > Having a connection or not is a policy decision. Stable addresses is an > issue on creating PI space. There is no real need to make a block > allocation for this. in my understanding of current policies there is no way for an isolated network to get PI space. one good reason to have a block allocation is to allow ISPs to filter those prefixes. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 06:10:07 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9EA7gs024989; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9EA74R024988; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:10:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9EA4gs024981 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9EAEMq020255 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26892 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.3]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA15152; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:09:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209084722.02af2e50@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:09:23 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <4275EE72-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>I had proposed limiting the use of site-locals to completely isolated >>networks (i.e. test networks and/or networks that will never be >>connected to other networks). This would give administrators of >>those networks an address space to use (FECO::/10) for those networks > >The first question that comes to mind here then is - why would we need a >/10 for this? That more than the currently totally allocated address space.... The /10 has been allocated for the purpose of "site-local" addressing in the addressing architecture for years -- at least since 1995. There are already lots of implementations that know something special about these addresses -- they are ambiguous and need a zone ID to fully qualify them, and they are not to be forwarded outside "site" boundaries). The use of these addresses, however, has not been fully defined in any IPv6 specification, and the definition of a "site" is unclear. The scoped addressing architecture I-D is attempting to define the use of these addresses, and we are currently trying to figure out what it should say... We have consensus to limit the use of these addresses in some way, and we are working to determine a complete plan. Regardless of what administrative or technical restrictions we place on the use of these addresses, though, we are pretty much stuck with the /10 allocation of "site-local" addresses. We can't reasonably reuse that space for global-unique PI addresses (or any other global addresses), because of the treatment that these addresses will receive from existing implementations. >>that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by ISPs, >>etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" >>network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses >>(and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... > >Yes, but that didn't really stop anyone.... I know. And, it will probably be very tempting for people to use these addresses behind IPv6 NAT boxes, like in IPv4. In my opinion, the only way that we will stop people from using NAT (with or without IPv6 site-local addresses) will be to provider better (architecturally cleaner, more convenient, more functional) mechanisms for people to get the same benefits that they get from NATs today. Although NATs may have started as a response to address space shortage, today their use is driven by the needs for provider-independent addressing and convenient access control. So, we need to work on better ways to provide those things in IPv6. We also need to understand and document how a network operator could reasonably run an operationally sound and secure network using global IPv6 addresses and IPv4 NAT side-by-side. There are a number of subtle problems caused by this configuration, and we need to understand those issues and educate network operators, enterprise operators, in particular, about how to properly set-up a shared IPv4/IPv6 network. That is one of the major roles of the v6ops WG, BTW. >>If we limit site-locals to this case, they can be treated _exactly_ like >>globals in all implementations (since they will be global to any network >>where they should be used), and all BGP routers could ship with a default >>filter to block propagation of these routes (which the administrator >>would have modify in the unlikely event that he wanted to use BGP in >>his completely isolated network). > >The problem I see (and have been beaten to death here) is that people WILL >connect them to the Internet. We have applications that can't >handle this and that will break, and we will have really hard times >implementing them. Yes, you are probably right, but I think that the only way that we can fight this is by providing _better_ solutions to the problems, and by trying to educate people about how to deploy those solutions into existing networks. >>I'm working on a draft that explains why I believe that site-locals >>need to be limited to this extreme, and that draft will provider further > >The above said - I will agree with you. Good, because I agree with you, too. >Anyway, although I don't like what you suggest above - I think it is the >only think that we can get some sort of consensus for and move on. But I >think that we need to learn from the RFC1918 mistake and make sure we >include a enforcement method. What sort of enforcement method would you suggest? >>The WG had consensus to limit the use of site-locals to one of these >>two proposals, but we were pretty much split down the middle between > >Wait - to ONE of them? We had three largish groups -- the folks who wanted to eliminate site-local addresses from the architecture altogether, the folks who wanted to limit site-locals to disconnected networks (the "limited usage" case) and the folks who wanted to limit site-locals to sites that don't touch other sites (the "moderate usage" case). We were able to get consensus in the room that we should limit the use of site-locals in some way, and that we should further document both the "limited usage" case and the "moderate usage" case, and try to figure out the right choice -- which may be one of those cases, or something in between, I suppose. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 06:51:00 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Ep0gs025145; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9Ep0BI025144; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:51:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Eovgs025137 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9Ep3bB029553 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:51:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27320 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.3]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA06123; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:50:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209093443.02b16dc8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:50:04 -0500 To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Cc: "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , In-Reply-To: <1305E2DB-093B-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204054523.01e55068@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >You where not at the rebellion/ad-hoc/let's get out of here and go for bee >multi6 meeting on Thursday in Atlanta. I was not actually aware of these meetings until later... I have since joined the mailing list. >One thing I have been think of. Do we know what the increased >prefix-length does to implementations and the effect on convergence times? >What I would like to do is have someone load a bunch of routers up with >the current 130k routes but with a prefix length of 128n bits, what >happens? What is the cost? I don't know if anyone has studied this. It is a very interesting question. >Not in the draft I have worked on now. In futuer? Yes, we will need a >solution to the scaling problem, but that needs to be achieved with a >routing solutions as well as perhaps a solution to addresses. Right. I think that we will actually need to make a fairly major change to the routing architecture of the Internet somewhere down the line, in order to support continued growth. I don't know what form it will take, but it will probably require some changes to IPv6, at least to the structure or allocation or IPv6 addresses. >>True, but it would cause IPv6 routing table growth... Do you have an >>answer for that? > >Without a question! But now we need to but time and deployment more than >anything else. I'm not sure I can quite agree... I have the following things running around in my brain, and they aren't converging: - We need to provide PI addressing in IPv6, or we will see wide deployment of IPv6 NAT in enterprises and homes. No one seems to be disagreeing with this. - We think that the use of NAT is one of the serious architectural problems facing the Internet today, and that NAT is blocking the advancement of the Internet in many ways. For an IPv6 Internet to be a "success", we must avoid the wide-scale deployment of IPv6 NAT. - We don't currently have a fully developed plan for aggregable, scalable IPv6 PI addressing. Some folks are working on this problem, but no one has claimed to have a full answer yet. - We know that providing widely-used PI addresses in IPv6 will result in substantially larger routing tables than doing straight PA addressing. - We also know that routing table size is a real scaling factor in the IPv4 Internet, for which we have not determined an adequate solution. - Routing table growth is not (yet) a scaling problem for IPv6, because of limited deployment. However, wide deployment of IPv6 is also a criteria for "success", so we need to build a scalable solution... - However, "success" must also include the avoidance of wide-scale IPv6 NAT deployment, which we can only achieve if we provide PI addresses... [Ad infinitim.] So, where do we go from here? Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 07:05:18 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9F5Hgs025256; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9F5HTj025255; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9F5Dgs025248 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9F5NbB002029 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23478 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:05:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB9F56j01268; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:05:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212091505.gB9F56j01268@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:09:23 EST.") <5.1.0.14.0.20021209084722.02af2e50@mail.windriver.com> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:05:06 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > We had three largish groups -- the folks who wanted to eliminate site-local > addresses from the architecture altogether, the folks who wanted to limit > site-locals to disconnected networks (the "limited usage" case) and the > folks who wanted to limit site-locals to sites that don't touch other > sites (the "moderate usage" case). As I said at the meeting, I don't think that way of dividing things was particuarly useful, nor do I think the categories were defined with enough precision to allow people to be sure what group they were in. However I did interpret the shows of hands as consensus that use of site-locals should be limited in some way. Ketih -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 08:09:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9G9Mgs025791; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9G9LPo025790; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:09:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9G9Igs025783 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9G9SMq015000 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from frantic.weston.bsdi.com (frantic-dmz.weston.BSDI.COM [206.196.54.22]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27430 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dab@localhost) by frantic.weston.bsdi.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id gB9G93w26115; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:09:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:09:03 -0600 (CST) From: David Borman Message-Id: <200212091609.gB9G93w26115@frantic.weston.bsdi.com> To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Cc: mrw@windriver.com Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:50:04 -0500 > From: Margaret Wasserman > Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] ... > I have the following things running around in my brain, and they aren't > converging: > > - We need to provide PI addressing in IPv6, or we will > see wide deployment of IPv6 NAT in enterprises > and homes. No one seems to be disagreeing with > this. > > - We think that the use of NAT is one of the serious > architectural problems facing the Internet today, > and that NAT is blocking the advancement of the > Internet in many ways. For an IPv6 Internet to > be a "success", we must avoid the wide-scale > deployment of IPv6 NAT. By themselves, GRUPI addresses might prevent NAT6. But currently we can't handle the scaling issues with GRUPI addressess in the global routing structure, so that's a non-starter. And non-globablly-routable PI addresses won't by themselves prevent NAT6 (see below). ... > So, where do we go from here? 1) We define a block for allocating GUPI addresses, and figure out how they will be allocated. 2) We define methods for allocating Site Local prefixes, possibly splitting up the SL address space into different blocks for different scenarios. I'm not convinced of the absolute need for GUPI addresses, since they are not going to be globally routable. But they do simplify some edge cases of merging/moving networks, make it easier to identify the offender when they leak into the global internet, and they might be a bit easier to deal with (than SL) in DNS. So, I don't have any objection to them. At the same time: 3) Start listing the issues with using local addressing on networks that are connected to the global internet (either GUPI or SL, the issues should the same), and then work to solve those issues. These are things like the DNS issues, and private routing between consenting sites. I think that preventing NAT6 is a big challenge. Neither SL nor GUPI addresses do anything to help us there. In fact, I think that GUPI addresses have the potential to justification of NAT6 worse. To properly run run an IPv6 network with global connectivity and with SL and/or GUPI addresses, each machine will need to be configured with at least two addresses. If it is perceived that this is difficult to do or not the proper way to do things (don't we keep discouraging running dual IPv4 networks over the same wire?), then I could see network administrators opting to use the private addresses on their networks, and using NAT6 to provide the global connectivity. And if you've *sold* them a guaranteed unique block of private address space (as opposed to them picking a SL network), I'd see them feeling even more justified in using that block. So, I don't think that providing GUPI addresses alone will do anything to prevent the use of NAT6. What will prevent NAT6 is to make sure that it is simple and easy to configure both globally routable and SL/GUPI addresses on the same network, and address the problems caused by having that configuration. Also anything to provide education about how using a firewall to protect your network is vastly superior to thinking that NAT provides security would be helpful. And lastly: 4) At this time, do not allocate globally routable/unique provider independent (GRUPI) addresses. The routing issues *have* to be figured out first. Once that happens, then I'm all for GRUPI addresses. But until there is some hope that the scaling issues can be overcome, we'd best not even start down that path. As for how far and wide SL/GUPI addresses should be used, I don't think we need to answer that up front. I think it really depends on how well we can address the issues caused by having them on networks connected to the global internet. The less we have solved, the more they should be restricted. -David Borman -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 09:00:02 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9H02gs026205; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9H02CA026204; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Gxugs026182 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9H05bB029610 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22546 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:59:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id IAA17986 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:59:59 -0800 (PST) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB9Gxwj16403 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:59:58 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212091659> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd4oaWLN; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:59:55 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 08:59:41 -0800 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org (by way of Bob Hinden ) Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IPv6 Globally Unique Site-Local Addresses Author(s) : R. Hinden Filename : draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2002-12-6 This internet draft describes a proposal for IPv6 Globally Unique Site-Local Addresses. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-6135954.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 10:27:38 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9IRbgs026679; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9IRb2s026678; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:27:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9IRXgs026671 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9IRgbB028847 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24543 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:27:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gB9IPVj02212; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:25:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212091825.gB9IPVj02212@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Margaret Wasserman cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , "Michel Py" , "Pekka Savola" , "Christian Huitema" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:50:04 EST.") <5.1.0.14.0.20021209093443.02b16dc8@mail.windriver.com> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:25:31 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > - We don't currently have a fully developed plan for > aggregable, scalable IPv6 PI addressing. Some > folks are working on this problem, but no one > has claimed to have a full answer yet. AFAIK, addressing isn't the problem, routing of non-aggregatable addresses is. > - We know that providing widely-used PI addresses in IPv6 > will result in substantially larger routing > tables than doing straight PA addressing. we don't know that. some people believe that. my belief is that such concerns are well-placed, though I don't share the belief that wide use of PI addresses inherently leads to having ISPs trying to globally route them. > - We also know that routing table size is a real scaling > factor in the IPv4 Internet, for which we have not > determined an adequate solution. my understanding is that routing table size isn't the issue for IPv4. it was once, many years ago. last I knew, the current limiting factor was the complexity of the routing computation, and the consequent time required to adapt to changes in the topology. that's subtly different than routing table size. note however that routing table size could be an issue once again with IPv6, since flat routing of large #s of /48 prefixes would presumably exhaust the forwarding table space in most routers... Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 14:10:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9MArgs027974; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9MArWW027973; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9MAngs027966 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9MAwbB017488 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.58.122]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24284 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe2 ([129.147.58.122]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6V003BFHM40M@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:10:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.15.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.2 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTPSA id <0H6V00E9JHLJ25@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:10:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 14:10:31 -0800 From: Alain Durand Subject: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This proposal is making the assumption that MAC addreses are somehow stable. I think this is a bad idea. A simple change of a NIC card in a router will start a renumbering event, and, although somehow simpler than in IPv4, IPv6 renumbering event are far from painless. On our servers, we recommend not to use staleless autoconfiguration based on MAC addresses, but instead to use a locally administered token as interface ID. Actually, our experience shows that in our environment, IPv4 addresses are far more stable than MAC addresses. - Alain. by way of Bob Hinden wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > Title : IPv6 Globally Unique Site-Local Addresses > Author(s) : R. Hinden > Filename : draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2002-12-6 > > This internet draft describes a proposal for IPv6 Globally Unique > Site-Local Addresses. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 14:58:38 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9Mwcgs028371; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9MwcqL028370; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9MwZgs028363 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9MwiMq001050 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.70.1]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04504 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:58:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from roadrunner.ecs.soton.ac.uk (roadrunner.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.161]) by raven.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17334 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:58:37 GMT Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.162]) by roadrunner.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB9MwWKd020336 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:58:32 GMT Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gB9MwWW22682 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:58:32 GMT Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:58:32 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Message-ID: <20021209225832.GM21269@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Another issue is that certain quad fast ethernet vendors (e.g. Sun) make 4-port cards where each interface has the same MAC address, which would mean I assume that by default each of the subnets run off those ports would have the same /64 network prefix? The DLink 570TX quad cards we use don't do that, but I think it may be common enough to be an issue? Possibly also revealing vendor equipment in a network by using the MAC address in the prefix is not ideal? My view on stateless autoconfiguration on servers is that it may be a gain in terms of being hidden from port scanning (as opposed to using prefix::1,::2,etc for servers). But if you know the vendor make, the scanning may be down to 2^24 hosts from 2^64 (still a big space), and in a lab of new equipment, the host IDs may be quite close if the network cards came in a batch. Just picking a "random" host part is probably the best compromise; use that 2^64 space :) Tim On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:10:31PM -0800, Alain Durand wrote: > This proposal is making the assumption that MAC addreses are somehow stable. > I think this is a bad idea. > A simple change of a NIC card in a router will start a renumbering event, > and, although somehow simpler than in IPv4, IPv6 renumbering event are far > from painless. > > On our servers, we recommend not to use staleless autoconfiguration based > on MAC addresses, but instead to use a locally administered token as > interface ID. > Actually, our experience shows that in our environment, IPv4 addresses > are far more stable than MAC addresses. > > - Alain. > > > > by way of Bob Hinden wrote: > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > > > >Title : IPv6 Globally Unique Site-Local Addresses > >Author(s) : R. Hinden > >Filename : draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt > >Pages : 7 > >Date : 2002-12-6 > > > >This internet draft describes a proposal for IPv6 Globally Unique > >Site-Local Addresses. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 15:00:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9N0Xgs028395; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9N0XI4028394; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9N0Ugs028387 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9N0ebB004292 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03015; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id PAA06656; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gB9N0Sm07714; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:00:28 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212092300> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdvCUnlb; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:00:25 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209145443.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:00:09 -0800 To: Alain Durand From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Alain, At 02:10 PM 12/9/2002, Alain Durand wrote: >This proposal is making the assumption that MAC addreses are somehow stable. >I think this is a bad idea. MAC addresses are stable. What may not be stable is their life in on an interface in a specific machine. The words in the draft are: 3.2 Assignment The globally unique site-local prefixes defined in this document are intended to be manually assigned to router interfaces in a site. The global token used in each prefix would be created from an EUI-48 address found in an interface on the subnet. There is no requirement that this be the same as the routers interface nor is it required to be automatic. MAC addresses were selected as a source of global token because they are good global token. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 15:17:24 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9NHOgs028671; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9NHOgY028670; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:17:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9NHKgs028663 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9NHTbB009804 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:17:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from esunmail ([129.147.58.121]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20119 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:17:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from xpa-fe1 ([129.147.58.122]) by edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6V0039SKP00M@edgemail1.Central.Sun.COM> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 16:17:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com ([129.146.15.17]) by mail.sun.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.2 (built Apr 26 2002)) with ESMTPSA id <0H6V0051LKOZVK@mail.sun.net> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 16:17:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:17:23 -0800 From: Alain Durand Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3DF52483.3070505@sun.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020920 Netscape/7.0 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20021209145443.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden wrote: > 3.2 Assignment > > The globally unique site-local prefixes defined in this document are > intended to be manually assigned to router interfaces in a site. The > global token used in each prefix would be created from an EUI-48 > address found in an interface on the subnet. > > There is no requirement that this be the same as the routers interface > nor is it required to be automatic. > > MAC addresses were selected as a source of global token because they > are good global token. They are good global token, but they are tied to a particular piece of hardware that might not be present in the same place in the network tomorrow morning. And the process has to be somehow automatic, if not, what will happen if I (manually) derived a prefix from one of the MAC adddresses on my router, and one day I sell that router to someone else who is going to do the same thing? - Alain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 15:26:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9NQSgs028775; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gB9NQSw9028774; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:26:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gB9NQPgs028767 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gB9NQYMq010211 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25486 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:26:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by localhost with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:26:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Margaret Wasserman'" Cc: "'Michel Py'" , Subject: RE: GUSL / GUPI summary Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:26:19 -0800 Message-ID: <05be01c29fda$60ed3340$237ba8c0@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021207051340.02a59cc0@mail.windriver.com> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gB9NQPgs028768 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret Wasserman wrote: > ... > I realize that the IETF cannot enforce such a restriction. > But, we can write a standard that says "these addresses are > intended for use on isolated networks and must not be used on > non-isolated networks" (or equivalent). My concern is the choice of 'must' rather than 'should'. SL works perfectly fine for networks attached to the Internet when used by 2-party apps following addr selection rules. Stating 'must not' is silly when there is a clear case where they work. > We can also document > the problems that are likely to occur (presumably in a > companion Info or BCP document) if site-local addresses are > used on connected networks. I am working on a document that > outlines the problems and recommends placing limits on the > IETF-advocated/supported use of site-locals, and I believe > that others are working on alternative proposals. Just be careful not to legislate against the 2-party case that most people will find useful and works just fine. > > >2) It is not a requirement that a connected network not use them. > > I'm not sure what you mean... Claiming that they must not be used on a connected network means we know they will always fail, or the problems are significantly greater than the value. We have a couple of examples of great value with no cost. These don't impact the greater Internet, so we shouldn't be telling people 'must not'. > > >The only reasonable argument here is that the IETF may > choose to leave > >the details of such use undocumented, and not spend time > addressing the > >DNS issues. > > Actually, I think it would be quite reasonable for the IETF > to provide a strong recommendation against using site-locals > on connected networks, and to document the problems that they cause. I agree that a BCP about the issues caused to multi-party apps is needed, and have said so several times. That does not translate into a need for a strong recommendation not to use them on connected networks. > > >We might provide an informational document that provides guidance to > >sites to randomize the upper 38 bits to avoid potential > problems with > >mergers later. We don't need to specify a standard > mechansim, but might > >suggest a couple of reasonable stratigies. > > I wouldn't try to stop this sort of approach if others think > it is valuable. I just don't think that it solves the larger > problems caused by site-local addresses, and I'm not sure > that its benefits are worth the effort. Real PI independent > addresses are the only real solution to this problem, IMO. > So, I'd like to see if we can find a way to provide PI > addresses in IPv6. > > I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately, and I > have been refining my thinking... > > In order to provide real PI addresses, we have both a policy > issue and a technical issue, both of which need to be solved. > > The policy issues is that registries are currently set-up to > provide addresses to service providers for further delegation > to customers (enterprises, homes, etc.). In order to supply > PI addresses, this would have to change. I don't know what > type of difficulties would arise in making this change -- > address allocaton policy isn't something I know very much > about, but I guess I'll have to learn. It depends on the mechanism we end up with. My approach does not require the registries to be involved in general, but does have a database role for them if that proves to be useful. > > The technical issue is that we don't want to allocate > non-aggregable addresses that will show up in the global > routing table. Tony, you seem to have a good start on one > approach to solving this problem. Are there other > well-developed proposals? What are the current > issues/weaknesses to your approach that will need to be > resolved before it is workable, if any? The only non-FUD comment I have heard is that the current business relationship between the exchange points and transit providers does not fit with the plan. While I am not trying to mandate a change in business practice, business relationships do evolve over time. I believe it is reasonable to expect that with a supporting techincal approach, the motivation will exist for that issue to take care of itself. The other significant issue with the approach had been the less-than-elegant handling of Europe through prefix pairs (east & west of 0). With the last pass, that was fixed so that the problem moved to Alaska & Hawaii (which are now more closely associated with Tokyo than Chicago). Since dealing with this is just a couple of exception prefixes rather than the set necessary to fix Europe, it should be more acceptable. I haven't received any comments on the current state of the update, but wouldn't expect too many until it goes out as the -04 ID, probably in Jan. There are other proposals in varying states of completeness, so we could have a lively debate about the trade-off's of each next year. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 9 17:54:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBA1sXgs000088; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:54:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBA1sXUC000087; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:54:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBA1sUgs000080 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBA1seMq024525 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nosense.org (247.cust3.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au [203.103.158.247]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28478 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651743B2E4; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:54:36 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt From: Mark Smith To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <3DF52483.3070505@sun.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20021209145443.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF52483.3070505@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 Date: 10 Dec 2002 12:54:36 +1100 Message-Id: <1039485277.12344.417.camel@dupy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, A few thoughts / questions / comments on your draft : 3.0 Proposal & 3.1 Global Token * 8 bit areas I'm curious as to why you chose to allocate 8 bits for the area. Allocating 6 bits for area would allow aggregation to take place on the /16 bit boundary. I think this would make it a easier for network admins to manage their site-local area prefixes when bounded at /16. I was going to suggest putting back the u and g bits, which would make connecting to the origin router for this prefix easier (just telnet to fec0 + EUI-64 + EUI-64), but then realised that your site local global token is generated from an EUI-48 :-( I think there probably is some value in keeping the full EUI-48 as the global token for trouble shooting reasons, at the sacrifice of 2 area bits. 3.2 Assignment * maybe be a bit more explicit about how manual configuration is achieved. I agree with and understand the motivation for manual assignment of these prefixes. However, the whole proposal has a strong "auto-configuration" theme - deriving site-local addresses from EUI-48s sounds a lot like something that would be done automatically by default. Would a typical implementation of this manual assignment be a toggle switch / [on / off] configuration option within a router ? If so, additional text suggesting that these prefixes will be automatically generated, but manually enabled / disabled (defaulted to disabled) might help overcome the "auto-configuration" theme of the generation of these prefixes. * the term "area" might be a bit vague, in the sense that usually people talk about "areas", they are referring to OSPF areas. I found when I initially read this term, I immediately wondered whether this field has some use or value wrt OSPF. A different name for this field might be a bit less confusing. - I don't feel that strongly on this, I think it is just that "area" is in such common usage in the OSPF context (and to my knowledge, no where is in IP routing / addressing), most people would immediately associate any usage of the term "area" in an RFC with OSPF. Regards, Mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 10 02:26:42 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBAAQggs001000; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBAAQgqH000999; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:26:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBAAQcgs000992 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBAAQmbB021171 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.iwavesystems.com (iwave-54-144-ban.iwavesystems.com [203.196.144.54] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15667 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from iwave005 (ns1.iwave.net [203.196.144.50]) by mail.iwavesystems.com (8.12.4/) with SMTP id gBAAKwDU001361 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:51:05 +0530 Message-ID: <00b001c2a037$2794bde0$a602a8c0@iwave005> From: "Rashmi" To: Subject: query Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:00:12 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01C2A065.3892EFD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Virus-Scanned: Message: ok X-Virus-Scanned: Message: ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.14 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) X-Filter-Version: 1.4.5 (mail.iwavesystems.com) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01C2A065.3892EFD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable query DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment (s) is for authorised use by the intended recipient (s) only. 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------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01C2A065.3892EFD0-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 10 04:38:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBACcMgs001730; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBACcMnT001729; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:38:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBACcHgs001722 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBACcQbB010438 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 04:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp [202.249.10.124]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21333; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 05:38:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost ([3ffe:501:4819:2000:e4c8:9ecc:dd97:2279]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (8.11.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id gBACcBR23419; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:38:14 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:38:26 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: narten@raleigh.ibm.com, Erik.Nordmark@Sun.COM Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: preferred lifetime > valid lifetime User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.6.1 (Upside Down) Emacs/21.2 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Research & Development Center, Toshiba Corp., Kawasaki, Japan. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 35 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello, I have a question about a corner case of IPv6 Neighbor Discovery; what should a host do if a received RA contains a prefix whose preferred lifetime is larger than valid lifetime? In terms stateless address autoconfiguration, the specification clearly says that such a prefix must be ignored: c) If the preferred lifetime is greater than the valid lifetime, silently ignore the Prefix Information option. A node MAY wish to log a system management error in this case. (RFC 2462 Section 5.5.3) However, there seems to be no description about the case in RFC 2461. This is perhaps intentional, because the preferred lifetime does not affect on-link prefix configuration. So my question is: - is RFC 2461 intentionally silent about the case of preferred lifetime > valid lifetime? - if so, what should a host do when, for example, it receives a prefix with the L bit being set, the A bit being set, and preferred LT > valid LT? Should it just regard the prefix as on-link and not configure a corresponding address? - or, do I miss something in RFC 2461? Thanks, JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp p.s. our implementation currently ignores such a prefix in terms of prefix configuration (RFC 2461) as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 10 19:51:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBB3pSgs005739; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBB3pRGF005738; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:51:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBB3pNgs005731 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBB3pPbB002048 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from yue.hongo.wide.ad.jp (yue.hongo.wide.ad.jp [203.178.139.94]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28538 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:51:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yue.hongo.wide.ad.jp (8.12.3+3.5Wbeta/8.12.3/Debian -4) with ESMTP id gBB3mwGR023918; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:49:02 +0900 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:48:57 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20021211.124857.79224150.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> To: usagi-users@linux-ipv6.org, mauro@deepspace6.net Cc: ds6-backend@deepspace6.net, 6net@garr.it, ipv6@lists.linux.it, psavola@funet.fi, renzo@cs.unibo.it, gnizzoli@ing.unife.it, flug@ferrara.linux.it, devel@ferrara.linux.it, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, bompadre@supernova.unicam.it, lasts@libero.it, stefanokkk@virgilio.it, users@ipv6.org, ipv6@ihug.com.au, p.bergamo@libero.it, webmaster@kame.net Subject: Re: (usagi-users 02021) deepspace6 official announcement From: YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNUhGIzFRTEAbKEI=?= In-Reply-To: References: Organization: USAGI Project X-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/ X-Fingerprint: 90 22 65 EB 1E CF 3A D1 0B DF 80 D8 48 07 F8 94 E0 62 0E EA X-PGP-Key-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/hideaki@yoshifuji.org.asc X-Face: "5$Al-.M>NJ%a'@hhZdQm:."qn~PA^gq4o*>iCFToq*bAi#4FRtx}enhuQKz7fNqQz\BYU] $~O_5m-9'}MIs`XGwIEscw;e5b>n"B_?j/AkL~i/MEaZBLP X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.1 (AOI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk In article (at Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:24:23 +0100 (CET)), Mauro Tortonesi says: > - many mailing lists for the discussion about every aspect of the > use of IPv6 under Linux Centerizing IPv6 things (as we wanted) is good start. It, however, does not make sense to make "many" mailing list. It will be much harder for people to follow / share information. Thanks. -- Hideaki YOSHIFUJI @ USAGI Project GPG FP: 9022 65EB 1ECF 3AD1 0BDF 80D8 4807 F894 E062 0EEA -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 03:28:44 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBBShgs006987; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBBShfr006986; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:28:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBBSegs006979 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBBSnbB000177 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from daakghar.controlnet.co.in (daakghar.controlnet.co.in [202.54.116.74]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA24280 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:28:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from digambar ([192.168.4.1]) by dakiya.controlnet.co.in (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H6YD8W00.CWR for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:59:20 +0530 Message-ID: <00af01c2a107$b4ff04d0$e20aa8c0@digambar> From: "Digambar Rasal" To: References: <05be01c29fda$60ed3340$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Subject: Ipv6 Subnet Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:53:18 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk We usually specify Ipv4 subnet like 255.255.255.0 or /8 so . But in Ipv6 while mentioning address we specify it /64 or /48 . Does both representation have same meaning ? More specifically i will like to know whether the Ipv6 subnetting is similar to ipv4 or differs ? Any RFC or document pertaining to this ?? Digambar Rasal ControlNet India Pvt Ltd India. +918322883601 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 03:45:45 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBBjjgs007076; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBBjisx007075; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:45:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBBjfgs007068 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBBjqMq029509 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA08737 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:45:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.4]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA25889; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:45:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021211063752.02765e90@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:44:51 -0500 To: "Digambar Rasal" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Ipv6 Subnet Cc: In-Reply-To: <00af01c2a107$b4ff04d0$e20aa8c0@digambar> References: <05be01c29fda$60ed3340$237ba8c0@eagleswings> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Digambar, At 04:53 PM 12/11/2002 +0530, Digambar Rasal wrote: >We usually specify Ipv4 subnet like 255.255.255.0 or /8 so . But in Ipv6 >while mentioning address we specify it /64 or /48 . As you may already know, a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0 is actually a /24. This means that the first 24 bits of the address contain the routing information (the network and subnet identifiers) and the last 8 bits contains the host identifier. In IPv6, addresses are 128 bits long. Writing out a subnet mask in the long form would look something like this: FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:0:0:0:0 That would be awfully cumbersome, so we don't use that notation, only the /NN notation. So, if the first 64 bits of an address contain the routing information (called a routing "prefix" in IPv6), we would say that it is a /64 prefix. >Does both representation have same meaning ? More specifically i will like >to know whether the Ipv6 subnetting is similar to ipv4 or differs ? Any RFC >or document pertaining to this ?? IPv6 subnetting is basically identical to IPv4 subnetting. The addressing architecture document describes this in more detail. The latest version can be found at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-addr-arch-v3-11.txt Regards, Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 04:36:20 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBCaJgs007278; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBCaJW5007277; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:36:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBCaGgs007270 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBCaQMq006137 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA21813 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 05:36:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832C690DD; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:03:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [::ffff:10.100.13.33]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA76890DC; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:03:40 +0100 (CET) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Digambar Rasal'" , Subject: RE: Ipv6 Subnet Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:04:25 +0100 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <001a01c2a10d$73794790$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00af01c2a107$b4ff04d0$e20aa8c0@digambar> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS @ purgatory.unfix.org Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Digambar Rasal wrote: > We usually specify Ipv4 subnet like 255.255.255.0 or /8 so . > But in Ipv6 while mentioning address we specify it /64 or /48 . You might lookup the word 'CIDR' or Classless Inter Domain Routing. In the /x, the x represents the number of bits for the part of the address that describes the network. > Does both representation have same meaning ? More > specifically i will like to know whether the Ipv6 subnetting is similar to ipv4 or > differs ? No they 'work' the same. Classful (A, B, C, D, E) have been dropped for some time already and are replaced with their CIDR counterparts. Thus for this part of IPv4 vs IPv6, it's just a much longer address. > Any RFC or document pertaining to this ?? www.faqs.org -> CIDR Don't know the thing by number or name though ;) Most current books and documents should be using it as CIDR has been here since 1991 or something (or even earlier?). Greets, Jeroen -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 06:35:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBEZYgs007850; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBEZXPx007849; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:35:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBEZUgs007842 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBEZfMq027155 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 06:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.236]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12604 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:35:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from d12relay01.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.22]) by d12lmsgate-3.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gBBEZ8C3021432 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:35:21 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay01.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gBBEYtg5018428 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:35:01 +0100 Received: from lig32-238-75-46.emea.lig-dial.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33656 from ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:34:47 +0100 Message-Id: <3DF70E10.E9FA5713@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:06:08 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk For the record, I am still completely against any proposal that takes over the normal 16 bit subnet field, i.e. generates a prefix longer than /48. It just isn't operationally convenient. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 07:11:27 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBFBQgs008277; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBFBQeW008276; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:26 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBFBNgs008269 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBFBXbB002383 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirk.rvdp.org (node147c0.a2000.nl [24.132.71.192]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27893 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:11:27 -0700 (MST) Received: (from rvdp@localhost) by kirk.rvdp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id gBBFApx28824; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:10:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:10:51 +0100 From: Ronald van der Pol To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Michel Py , Pekka Savola , Christian Huitema , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Message-ID: <20021211151051.GD27026@rvdp.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021204054523.01e55068@mail.windriver.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021209093443.02b16dc8@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209093443.02b16dc8@mail.windriver.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 09:50:04 -0500, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > - We need to provide PI addressing in IPv6, or we will > see wide deployment of IPv6 NAT in enterprises > and homes. No one seems to be disagreeing with > this. I don't know yet if I agree or not :-) I agree that it is a good idea to explore the topic of PI addressing. But if you look at the requirements, it might be better to take a more fundamental approach and look into the separatiion of locator and identifier. I _do_ agree that we must avoid IPv6 NAT! rvdp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 10:33:45 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBIXjgs009931; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBIXjZr009930; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBIXggs009923 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:33:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBIXqMq026824 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27160 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:33:46 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> From: "James Kempf" To: Subject: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:21:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing infrastructure in order to be able to use IPv6. Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 service (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? I did a quick Google search and all the offerings seem to be for backbone service. jak -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 10:57:01 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBIv0gs010086; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBIv0C4010085; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:57:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBIuvgs010078 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBIv7Mq004306 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04127 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:57:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.18]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA00300; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:56:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211135222.01dea740@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:56:03 -0500 To: "James Kempf" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Cc: In-Reply-To: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi James, At 10:21 AM 12/11/2002 -0800, James Kempf wrote: >I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing infrastructure in order >to be >able to use IPv6. Great! >Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 >service (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? Unfortunately, I don't think that this is available (I'd love to find out that I'm wrong, though). Most of us run a 6to4 gateway and tunnel over our provider's IPv4 network to one of the public 6to4 relays. There are 6to4 implementations available for most OSes including most or all of the free Unixes. Good luck! And, let us know when you can see the turtle dance. :-) Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 11:31:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBJVqgs010192; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBJVq8D010191; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBJVngs010184 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBJVxbB011840 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26176 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:31:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id LAA19696; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBBJVrd31102; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:53 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212111931> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd2bM5uA; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:50 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211110643.025cada0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:31:29 -0800 To: "James Kempf" From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Cc: In-Reply-To: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk James, At 10:21 AM 12/11/2002, James Kempf wrote: >I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing infrastructure in order >to be >able to use IPv6. Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 >service (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? > >I did a quick Google search and all the offerings seem to be for backbone >service. I am unfortunately, also working on this. I used to have DSL service from a local provider, but they discontinued it abruptly a week and a half ago. Until they shut it down, I had IPv6 service with a configured tunnel to nokia.net with a /48 assignment. I found a new local SF bay area provider, meer.net, and signed up with them. They expressed some interest in later offering IPv6 service. [Note, I don't have any personal financial interest in meer.net so I am only mentioning them on the list because of their interest in IPv6.] Once the new DSL line is up, I will setup the configured tunnel again. I was planning on working with meer.net to help them get IPv6 running so I could get rid of the tunnel. If you contact them, suggest you mention your interest in IPv6. If enough people ask for it.... Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 11:34:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBJYYgs010210; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBJYYaa010209; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:34:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBJYVgs010202 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBJYfbB012777 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23651 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:34:35 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:34:34 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B046405E525@server2000> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Thread-Index: AcKhRLV5p7G8NqrRRQa2KKp0Q1cQ6AABpihg From: "Michel Py" To: "James Kempf" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBBJYVgs010203 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk James, > James Kempf wrote: > I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing > infrastructure in order to be able to use IPv6. > Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that > provides IPv6 service (specifically, in the SF Bay > Area)? I am not aware of any at a reasonable price. I'm sure that you could find someone that would provide a T1 with IPv6 for $1,000/mo though.... For mere mortals that have to stick with the $49/mo DSL, use 6to4 or get a tunnel from http://www.freenet6.net/ Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 12:13:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBKD8gs010663; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBKD8wN010662; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:13:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBKD5gs010655 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBKDFbB024508 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17081 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:09 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:13:10 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD50E@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Thread-Index: AcKfknAEK3phaneVRs29CA1VEtIy8wACU7tw From: "Michel Py" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBBKD5gs010656 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, > Margaret Wasserman wrote: > - We need to provide PI addressing in IPv6, or we will > see wide deployment of IPv6 NAT in enterprises > and homes. No one seems to be disagreeing with > this. Little disgression about the meaning of "PI": in many people minds, it means "PI as we know it today for IPv4", which is exactly what we don't want for IPv6. It would be better to use another acronym such as GRUPI or GAPI. > - We think that the use of NAT is one of the serious > architectural problems facing the Internet today, > and that NAT is blocking the advancement of the > Internet in many ways. For an IPv6 Internet to > be a "success", we must avoid the wide-scale > deployment of IPv6 NAT. > - We don't currently have a fully developed plan for > aggregable, scalable IPv6 PI addressing. Some > folks are working on this problem, but no one > has claimed to have a full answer yet. > - We know that providing widely-used PI addresses in IPv6 > will result in substantially larger routing > tables than doing straight PA addressing. > - We also know that routing table size is a real scaling > factor in the IPv4 Internet, for which we have not > determined an adequate solution. > - Routing table growth is not (yet) a scaling problem > for IPv6, because of limited deployment. However, > wide deployment of IPv6 is also a criteria for > "success", so we need to build a scalable > solution... > - However, "success" must also include the avoidance of > wide-scale IPv6 NAT deployment, which we can only > achieve if we provide PI addresses... > [Ad infinitim.] Good summary, IMHO. > So, where do we go from here? Two-prong approach, see http://arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us/ipv6mh/roadmap.txt Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 12:16:00 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBKG0gs010696; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBKG0pM010695; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBKFugs010688 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBKG6Mq028259 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10382 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:15:59 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:00 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD50F@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Thread-Index: AcKhJ6V+rZI8JINSQACMhfZKz2gAaAAKi++w From: "Michel Py" To: "Ronald van der Pol" , "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBBKFvgs010689 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Ronald, >> Margaret Wasserman wrote: >> - We need to provide PI addressing in IPv6, or we will >> see wide deployment of IPv6 NAT in enterprises >> and homes. No one seems to be disagreeing with this. > Ronald van der Pol wrote: > I don't know yet if I agree or not :-) I agree that it > is a good idea to explore the topic of PI addressing. > But if you look at the requirements, it might be better > to take a more fundamental approach and look into the > separatiion of locator and identifier. Right. People don't care much about PI addresses if they have PI identifiers instead. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 13:13:47 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBLDlgs011182; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBLDkuk011181; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBLDggs011174 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBLDrbB012325 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27511 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBBLBpj20251; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:11:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212112111.gBBLBpj20251@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: "Michel Py" cc: "Ronald van der Pol" , "Margaret Wasserman" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:00 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD50F@server2000> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:11:51 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > But if you look at the requirements, it might be better > > to take a more fundamental approach and look into the > > separatiion of locator and identifier. > > Right. People don't care much about PI addresses if they have PI > identifiers instead. a true separation of locator and identifier is a more fundamental change to the Internet architecture than moving from IPv4 to IPv6. as soon as you separate locator and identifier, you have the burden of providing a mapping service between the two, which is efficient, reliable, secure, and precise enough to be used for all applications. DNS (which is typically proposed as the solution) doesn't even come close. OTOH, mobileIP is a fairly close approximation to separating locator and identifier if you get past the notion that "home agent" is specific to a single host (as opposed to a set of hosts with a common prefix), and that "home" has anything to do with the normal physical location of a host. being able to get rid of the home agent when the host has a home and is at home is a useful optimization that works in some cases, but not in all or most cases. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 14:52:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBMqSgs011935; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBMqSiJ011933; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBMqNgs011924 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:52:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBMqYMq016906 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26784 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id gBBMqbnT024815 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:37 -0700 (MST) Received: [from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id PAA12398 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:26 -0700 (MST)] Received: from motorola.com (mvp-10-238-2-27.corp.mot.com [10.238.2.27]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gBBMqM7C009578 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:52:24 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3DF7C1AA.88E2A6CE@motorola.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:52:26 +1100 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> <3DF70E10.E9FA5713@hursley.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > For the record, I am still completely against any proposal > that takes over the normal 16 bit subnet field, i.e. > generates a prefix longer than /48. It just isn't > operationally convenient. I'm still unsure about this insistence on /48 as a critical point of allocation. /64 as a critical makes sense, as it is configured as the changeover from subnet allocation to host allocation (for unicast addresses at least). But as for /48, consider these examples: My home (say 4 subnets) is given a /48 for my SOHO network. The local university (say 100 subnets) is given a /48 for the campus. Multinational X (say 5000 subnets) is given a /48 for their entire VPN. Only one of the above needs anything like a /48. Next example, let's consider inside multinational X. I want to allocate subnets to sites. /48 is our standard allocation, right? But I can't allocate /48s, because /48 is the allocation for the entire VPN, so I instead allocate something smaller (probably a /56). Now let's assume that said site wants to create a site-local network (not sure why, since they're 'permanently' connected, but let's run with it). Why is the number /48 somehow magical for this site, considering they have a /56 delegation? All they really want is a way of generating internal /64 subnets. /64 marks a well defined physical entity: the subnet, although even that can be redefined if the address allocator wishes it. /48 is a convenient mark for a logical entity: the 'end-user' network. In practice, these vary radically in size and may be further subdivided, so /48 is merely a useful convention. -- Andrew White Andrew.E.White@motorola.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 15:14:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNENgs012359; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBNENGA012358; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:14:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNEJgs012351 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBNEUbB018862 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02881 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:14:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708AE7C36; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:14:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [::ffff:10.100.13.33]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41207856; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:14:30 +0100 (CET) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Bob Hinden'" , "'James Kempf'" Cc: Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:15:12 +0100 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <003f01c2a16b$28f36e90$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211110643.025cada0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS @ purgatory.unfix.org Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob Hinden write: > If you contact them, suggest you mention your interest in > IPv6. If enough > people ask for it.... Which is exactly what people should to get their ISP's going. We had an AMS-IX IPv6 Awareness Day, at which many ISP's where present. Checking http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/tla/ this helped quite a lot as the ISPs who attended the session. Most of them requested an sTLA from RIPE 1 United States 64 2 Japan 61 3 Germany 31 4 Netherlands, The 24 5 United Kingdom 18 Not bad for such a small country as .nl... anyways what my point is is the fact that there should be "IPv6 Awareness" days/weeks where ISP's *AND* developers are given an insight into what they need to do to get the ball rolling. Maybe a good point for one of the next IPv6-WG meetings? "How to make ISP's and developers aware of IPv6" Greets, Jeroen -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 15:39:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNdMgs012494; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBNdLqo012493; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:39:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNdIgs012486 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBNdSMq000839 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from realname ([203.254.224.24]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17766 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:39:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout1.samsung.com by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H6Z00301BFJOE@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:47:43 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6Z00GJQBFJJL@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:47:43 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H6Z00465BCEI6@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:46:08 +0900 (KST) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:37:13 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-reply-to: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> To: "'James Kempf'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <007a01c2a16e$45c666a0$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is same situation as asian has except JP. IPv6 is wholly experimental and used in each lab. I'm looking forward to nice solution from V6OPS WG. Daniel -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of James Kempf Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:21 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing infrastructure in order to be able to use IPv6. Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 service (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? I did a quick Google search and all the offerings seem to be for backbone service. jak -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 15:52:18 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNqHgs012638; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBBNqH0X012637; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBBNqDgs012630 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBBNqNbB000633 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from realname ([203.254.224.24]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01233 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:52:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout1.samsung.com by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H6Z00405C17EN@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:00:44 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6Z00G32C17JL@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:00:43 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H6Z0044NBYJI2@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:59:08 +0900 (KST) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:50:30 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-reply-to: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> To: "'James Kempf'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <008001c2a170$1691faf0$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is same situation as asian has except JP. IPv6 is wholly experimental and used in each lab. I'm looking forward to nice solution from V6OPS WG. Daniel -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of James Kempf Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:21 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing infrastructure in order to be able to use IPv6. Does anybody know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 service (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? I did a quick Google search and all the offerings seem to be for backbone service. jak -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 16:12:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC0CFgs012805; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBC0CFWX012804; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:12:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC0CBgs012797 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBC0CLMq010606 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06528 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:12:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBC0CBj21410; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:12:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212120012.gBC0CBj21410@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt In-reply-to: (Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:52:26 +1100.") <3DF7C1AA.88E2A6CE@motorola.com> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:12:11 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I'm still unsure about this insistence on /48 as a critical point of > allocation. renumbering is a lot more painful if you're trying to renumber between prefixes of different lengths. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 18:48:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC2m8gs013456; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBC2m7SV013455; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC2m4gs013448 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBC2mFMq023118 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.live.com ([66.80.62.34]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03096 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.live.com (localhost.live.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns.live.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gBC2m9oY074139 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsf@ns.live.com) Received: (from rsf@localhost) by ns.live.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id gBC2m9E0074134; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.1.20021211183921.00b8d100@laptop-localhost> X-Sender: rsf@laptop-localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:48:05 -0800 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Ross Finlayson Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211135222.01dea740@mail.windriver.com> References: <012601c2a143$9ed7f8b0$726015ac@T23KEMPF> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >Most of us run a 6to4 gateway and tunnel over our provider's >IPv4 network to one of the public 6to4 relays. It's unfortunate that there still seem to be very few 6to4 relay routers that are advertising a route to the "6to4 anycast address" (2002:c058:6301::). For example, for me (in the San Francisco Bay Area) this address gives me a router that appears to be located somewhere in Europe! Consequently, I ended up hard-coding a topologically closer 6to4 relay router (e.g., 6to4.ipv6.microsoft.com: 2002:836b:213c:1:e0:8f08:f020:8) into my configuration file. Are people still serious about using anycast to locate 6to4 relay routers, or is this idea considered to be just a toy?? Ross. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 21:50:29 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC5oTgs015830; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBC5oSHT015829; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:50:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC5oPgs015822 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBC5oaMq021909 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (zmamail04.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.104]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14725 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.96]) by zmamail04.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE10040C4; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg11.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:50:29 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:50:29 -0500 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B03240CD6@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Thread-Index: AcKhRE+Xgrlfm1wFRhqf7849AqY9AgAXWofg From: "Bound, Jim" To: "James Kempf" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2002 05:50:29.0814 (UTC) FILETIME=[60A73560:01C2A1A2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBC5oQgs015823 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk James, I would contact NTT in San Jose and what is called the PAIX. Both have IPv6 offerings but I am not sure what the deal is at all. Now that ISP have commerical grade IPv6 products from many vendors this will change. The providers needed second release IPv6 commerical product releases and now some are even shipping their 3rd commerical product release of IPv6. Bob is correct. I just about have my ISP in NH to give me IPv6. They have tested it pretty well. What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and some of us in deployment land are bugging folks like that now. /jim [What light is to the eyes, what air is to the lungs, what love is to the heart, liberty is to the soul] > -----Original Message----- > From: James Kempf [mailto:kempf@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:21 PM > To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? > > > I'm in the process of upgrading my home computing > infrastructure in order to be able to use IPv6. Does anybody > know a retail ISP in the US that provides IPv6 service > (specifically, in the SF Bay Area)? > > I did a quick Google search and all the offerings seem to be > for backbone service. > > jak > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 11 22:14:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC6ESgs015950; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBC6ERJH015949; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC6EOgs015942 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBC6EYMq024758 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ALPHA9.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha9.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.9]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10849 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2002 23:14:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.72]) by vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KPYA7QE8UK95P1VP@vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:03:35 +1100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A61F12C182; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:03:35 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (kiwi.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.104]) by thwack.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5474512C160; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:03:16 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:03:05 +1100 From: Richard Nelson Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt X-Sender: "Richard Nelson" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: john.loughney@nokia.com Message-id: <3DF82699.DE26E138@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD monwin/023 (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C63@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I've read this a couple of times and I find the security section (sec 8) quite confusing. I am not a security expert but it appears to me that it is not consistent. In particular sec 8.2 says "AH [RFC-2402] must be supported." It then goes on to say "there is no real need for AH" and in both section 8.1 and 8.3 there are items that "MUST be supported if AH is implemented". It would seem the if is redundant or something is wrong. Equally, section 8.1 says that "IPSec tunnel mode MUST be supported" and then goes on to say "case .... MUST be supported if IPSec tunnel mode is implemented." The first paragraph of section 8.3 finishes with the sentance "Note that the IPSec WG also recommends not using this algorithm." It is not clear to me which of the three algorithms mentioned in that paragraph this sentance refers to. It seems from section 8.3 that there are four encryption algorithms that must be supported AES-128-CBC, HMAC-SHA-1-96, HMAC-MD5-96 and HMAC-SHA-256. I think this section could however be worded more clearly. It would also be good if the appropriate RFCs were referenced in the text. >From the point of view of very small devices, whilst I understand that IPSec support is a requirement, it seems that requiring transport mode and tunnel mode, AH and ESP and four algorithms (plus null encryption) seems onerous. I wasn't part of any discussion on this, but I would appreciate it if someone would explain particularly why so many algorithms are required. Finally a small editorial nit. There are lots of "is MUST"s and few "is SHOULD"s in the document that should be "MUST"s and "SHOULD"s. Richard. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 00:56:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC8uMgs016415; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBC8uMQc016414; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:56:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBC8uHgs016407 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBC8uRbB012053 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (webmail25.rediffmail.com [203.199.83.147] (may be forged)) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA19551 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:56:20 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 5305 invoked by uid 510); 12 Dec 2002 08:56:46 -0000 Date: 12 Dec 2002 08:56:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20021212085646.5304.qmail@webmail25.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.197.138.194) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 12 dec 2002 08:56:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "aridaman kaushik" Reply-To: "aridaman kaushik" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all, I have a doubt regarding ipv6 over ipv4 tunnel. 1. When a tunnel is configured, source and destination is configured. Is it sufficient to configure destination address only. My means to say why source address is required. 2. Is it necessary to establish path between source and destination before configuring tunnel and use this path in routing header of tunneled packet for forwarding the packet. 3. I have one more doubt, when there is concept of fast path and slow path, which functionality of the tunnelling should go to the fast path and which functionality of tunnelling should go to the slow path. thanks in advance regards ari. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 03:44:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCBiLgs017208; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBCBiKVL017207; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCBiHgs017199 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBCBiRMq013473 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21139 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 04:44:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) id gBCBiKw22104; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:20 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200212121144.gBCBiKw22104@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.1.20021211183921.00b8d100@laptop-localhost> from Ross Finlayson at "Dec 11, 2 06:48:05 pm" To: finlayson@live.com (Ross Finlayson) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:44:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk v6 anycast is distinctly different than v4 anycast, which is confusing to most operators I know of. wrt native IPv6 providers in the US, yes there are a few. todate, they are either small or are "vertical". Perhaps the largest in the US (BW, geographic spread) is the Abilene network. There are a number of ISPs that connect natively to exchange facilities over IPv6. In LA, I am using an ISP with native IPv6 to connect to LAIIX where there is native IPv6 to two other ISPs and a bunch of tunnels to other regional ISPs that connect to other exchanges. Most exchanges will be IPv6 aware/capable in the next 30 days. The backbone/transit networks that had plans (CW, Sprint, WCOM) for native IPv6 products have generally slipped those plans (for a variety of reasons) out for another year or so... based on demand. And quite frankly, these folks need -big- customer demand. So the near-term, pragmatic tactic seems to be for us small users to vote w/ our pocketbooks and support the regional/local ISPs that support IPv6 to local exchanges. --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 03:50:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCBoLgs017265; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBCBoKup017264; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCBoHgs017257 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBCBoRMq014337 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA08190 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 04:50:21 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by boreas.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) id gBCBoGE24723; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Message-Id: <200212121150.gBCBoGE24723@boreas.isi.edu> Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-Reply-To: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B03240CD6@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> from "Bound, Jim" at "Dec 12, 2 00:50:29 am" To: Jim.Bound@hp.com (Bound, Jim) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:50:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: kempf@docomolabs-usa.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk % What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and some of us in % deployment land are bugging folks like that now. Jim, what is the issue here? I have both linksys and netgear kit in the home network and both pass native IPv6. granted not all their kit works w/ IPv6. --bill Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity (legal or otherwise). -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 05:05:03 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCD52gs017455; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBCD52u8017454; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:05:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCD4wgs017447 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBCD58Mq022599 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA03216 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21602; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:02:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212121302.IAA21602@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:02:05 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Domain Name Auto-Registration for Plugged-in IPv6 Nodes Author(s) : H. Kitamura Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2002-12-11 This document describes a scheme of 'Domain Name Auto-Registration for Plugged-in IPv6 Nodes' mechanism that makes it possible to register both regular and inverse domain name information of plugged- in IPv6 nodes to DNS servers automatically. Since IPv6 addresses are too long to remember and EUI64-based addresses are too complicated to remember, there are strong requirements to use logical names that are easy to remember instead of IPv6 addresses to specify IPv6 nodes and to register domain name information of plugged-in IPv6 nodes automatically. In order to meet the requirements, a mechanism is proposed as one of the IPv6 auto-configuration (plug and play) functions. After the Address Autoconfiguration [ADDR-AUTO] has been executed, it works as a succeeding plug and play mechanism. This document clarifies problems that we meet when we apply the Dynamic Updates in the DNS [DYN-DNS] to automatic domain name information registration mechanisms. This document describes the Domain Name Auto-Registration mechanism as a solution to these problems. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-11132810.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-ipv6-name-auto-reg-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-11132810.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 06:29:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCETCgs017749; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBCETCiT017748; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:29:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCET9gs017741 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:29:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBCETIbB026457 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (zmamail05.zma.compaq.com [161.114.64.105]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29226 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net (tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net [16.103.130.103]) by zmamail05.zma.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F15E9D95; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net ([16.103.130.26]) by tayexg12.americas.cpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:29:10 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9FC9@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Thread-Index: AcKh1KbL30moOpjLQ/yNkmpyO4KM+gAFgIvw From: "Bound, Jim" To: "Bill Manning" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2002 14:29:10.0918 (UTC) FILETIME=[D646D260:01C2A1EA] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBCET9gs017742 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bill, WOW. OK lets go offline. I got both here too and just "assumed" not and I looked for patches. Thanks. /jim [What light is to the eyes, what air is to the lungs, what love is to the heart, liberty is to the soul] > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Manning [mailto:bmanning@ISI.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 6:50 AM > To: Bound, Jim > Cc: kempf@docomolabs-usa.com; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? > > > % What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and > some of us in % deployment land are bugging folks like that now. > > Jim, > what is the issue here? I have both linksys and netgear > kit in the home network and both pass native IPv6. granted > not all their kit works w/ IPv6. > > --bill > > Opinions expressed may not even be mine by the time you read > them, and certainly don't reflect those of any other entity > (legal or otherwise). > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 14:08:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCM8rgs020367; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBCM8rHd020366; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBCM8ogs020359 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBCM8xMq012426 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03944 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:08:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id OAA22837; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBCM8pb25805; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:51 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212122208> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdtsVOcq; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:49 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021212140705.02e3c108@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:08:27 -0800 To: Bill Manning From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200212121144.gBCBiKw22104@boreas.isi.edu> References: <4.3.1.1.20021211183921.00b8d100@laptop-localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bill, >demand. So the near-term, pragmatic tactic seems to be for >us small users to vote w/ our pocketbooks and support the regional/local >ISPs that support IPv6 to local exchanges. I think the expression is "think globally, act locally". Don't wait for someone else to do it. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 16:14:57 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD0Evgs020932; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD0Eui5020931; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD0Ergs020924 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD0F3Mq018033 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03650 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA00259; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBD0EtX13491; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:55 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212130014> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdpzrInr; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:52 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021212153500.02e3c208@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:14:29 -0800 To: Mark Smith From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <1039485277.12344.417.camel@dupy> References: <3DF52483.3070505@sun.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20021209145443.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF52483.3070505@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Mark, At 05:54 PM 12/9/2002, Mark Smith wrote: >Hi Bob, > >A few thoughts / questions / comments on your draft : > >3.0 Proposal & 3.1 Global Token > >* 8 bit areas > >I'm curious as to why you chose to allocate 8 bits for the area. > >Allocating 6 bits for area would allow aggregation to take place on the >/16 bit boundary. I think this would make it a easier for network admins >to manage their site-local area prefixes when bounded at /16. > >I was going to suggest putting back the u and g bits, which would make >connecting to the origin router for this prefix easier (just telnet to >fec0 + EUI-64 + EUI-64), but then realised that your site local global >token is generated from an EUI-48 :-( > >I think there probably is some value in keeping the full EUI-48 as the >global token for trouble shooting reasons, at the sacrifice of 2 area >bits. I was trying to see how many bits I could have left over and still use the EUI-48 as the basis for the global token. I think I agree that it would be simpler just using the whole 48-bits and shrink the area. >3.2 Assignment > >* maybe be a bit more explicit about how manual configuration is >achieved. > >I agree with and understand the motivation for manual assignment of >these prefixes. > >However, the whole proposal has a strong "auto-configuration" theme - >deriving site-local addresses from EUI-48s sounds a lot like something >that would be done automatically by default. I agree. I think one of the good things about this approach is that could be made to auto-configure the subnets. I wasn't attempting to solve all of the issues to make that work in this draft. >Would a typical implementation of this manual assignment be a toggle >switch / [on / off] configuration option within a router ? >If so, additional text suggesting that these prefixes will be >automatically generated, but manually enabled / disabled (defaulted to >disabled) might help overcome the "auto-configuration" theme of the >generation of these prefixes. I agree adding some text to clarify how this could work would make it clearer. Semi-automatic might be a good way to describe it. The administrator could be give a choice of creating a prefix based in the interfaces EUI-48 address, enter a global token, or use a prefix it has heard advertised from another router. This would make the installation of the routers fairly simple and in most cases avoid typing in big strings of digits. >* the term "area" might be a bit vague, in the sense that usually people >talk about "areas", they are referring to OSPF areas. > >I found when I initially read this term, I immediately wondered whether >this field has some use or value wrt OSPF. The use of area was not coincidental. I was thinking about OSPF areas as that is probably about the right size to flat route a number of subnets. >A different name for this field might be a bit less confusing. > >- I don't feel that strongly on this, I think it is just that "area" is >in such common usage in the OSPF context (and to my knowledge, no where >is in IP routing / addressing), most people would immediately associate >any usage of the term "area" in an RFC with OSPF. Another question is the area field that useful or would it be better to just have /64 prefixes and flat route them in a site. This might make the proposal simpler and better. On the other hand, it is nice to have a way of scaling the routing protocol inside the site. Thoughts? Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 17:02:30 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD12Tgs021156; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD12T6l021155; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD12Qgs021148 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD12ZbB023312 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28612 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id RAA01936; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBD11lW06590; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:01:47 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212130101> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd7YA9me; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:01:44 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021212165403.02e6b938@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:01:20 -0800 To: Keith Moore From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200212112111.gBBLBpj20251@astro.cs.utk.edu> References: <(Your message of "Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:16:00 PST.") <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD50F@server2000> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, I think your points on both topics are well taken. I also have the notion that the current approach of combining the locator and identifier in IPv4 and IPv6 has a lot of value that we tend to take for granted. It provides a degree of authentication that requires lots of cryptographic technology to replicate if they are separated. Instead of a bug, I think it is a feature :-) Bob >a true separation of locator and identifier is a more fundamental >change to the Internet architecture than moving from IPv4 to IPv6. > >as soon as you separate locator and identifier, you have the burden of >providing a mapping service between the two, which is efficient, >reliable, secure, and precise enough to be used for all applications. >DNS (which is typically proposed as the solution) doesn't even come close. > >OTOH, mobileIP is a fairly close approximation to separating locator >and identifier if you get past the notion that "home agent" is specific >to a single host (as opposed to a set of hosts with a common prefix), >and that "home" has anything to do with the normal physical location of >a host. being able to get rid of the home agent when the host has a >home and is at home is a useful optimization that works in some cases, >but not in all or most cases. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 17:13:19 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1DIgs021294; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD1DIFU021293; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1DFgs021286 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD1DOMq006170 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05286 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:13:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id RAA02750 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBD1DIX14526; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:18 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212130113> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdKPhbHG; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:13:16 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021212170223.01e9ea50@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:11:40 -0800 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt In-Reply-To: <3DF70E10.E9FA5713@hursley.ibm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209085915.02d224f0@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <3DF514D7.7020100@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, Brian, At 02:06 AM 12/11/2002, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >For the record, I am still completely against any proposal >that takes over the normal 16 bit subnet field, i.e. >generates a prefix longer than /48. It just isn't >operationally convenient. At 04:12 PM 12/11/2002, Keith Moore wrote: > > I'm still unsure about this insistence on /48 as a critical point of > > allocation. > >renumbering is a lot more painful if you're trying to renumber >between prefixes of different lengths. Ignoring the area field (that I am starting to think was a mistake) for a minute, the idea in the draft is that one could have site-local prefixes that are independent from the global prefixes and would not have to be renumbered. Because they are globally unique they would survive site joining and/or splitting, change of ISP, change of topology, etc. There were not intended to be used in the same manner as the global prefixes that have a 16-bit subnet field. The cost for this flexibility was that they had to be flat routed in the site. I think that is a good tradeoff, but opinions will vary. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 17:28:54 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1Ssgs021476; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD1Ssib021475; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:28:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1Sogs021468 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD1SxbB000235 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12030 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:28:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id gBD1SPPw021691 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:28:26 -0700 (MST) Received: [from homer.arc.corp.mot.com (homer.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.38]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id SAA25679 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:28:51 -0700 (MST)] Received: from motorola.com (awhite.arc.corp.mot.com [10.238.80.239]) by homer.arc.corp.mot.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gBD1Sn7C017457 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:28:49 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <3DF937D5.26E49109@motorola.com> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:28:53 +1100 From: Andrew White Reply-To: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com Organization: Motorola Australia Research Centre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPng Subject: Internet draft on EUIs and site locals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk At the same time as Bob was writing draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Aidan and I were also working on a draft to summarise our ideas. This is now available as draft-white-auto-subnet-00.txt Having seen both side by side, Bob's is probably the cleaner, although we offer a different perspective and commentary on some points. The main difference is moving some of the free bits from the 'area' field (high bits above the EUI) to a sub-id field below the EUI, to allow a router to use a single EUI-48 to service multiple interfaces or links. -- Andrew White Andrew.E.White@motorola.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 17:37:31 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1bVgs021577; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD1bVUH021576; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD1bRgs021569 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD1bbMq013861 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15697 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:37:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id RAA03859; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBD1bTI01128; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:29 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212130137> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdqnX0zj; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:26 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021212172258.0227c908@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:37:03 -0800 To: Margaret Wasserman From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209084722.02af2e50@mail.windriver.com> References: <4275EE72-0931-11D7-A3F3-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> <5.1.0.14.0.20021202073017.025d7668@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, >In my opinion, the only way that we will stop people from using NAT >(with or without IPv6 site-local addresses) will be to provider better >(architecturally cleaner, more convenient, more functional) mechanisms >for people to get the same benefits that they get from NATs today. >Although NATs may have started as a response to address space shortage, >today their use is driven by the needs for provider-independent addressing >and convenient access control. So, we need to work on better ways to >provide those things in IPv6. I am not sure that this is really true. When I was looking for a new DSL provider I found that in many cases I could get service at a specific bandwidth with a singe address for about $60 a month. If I wanted a /29 instead, it would cost about $30 more a month. 50% more for 6 usable addresses! I think this is fairly common. The lower cost DSL providers doen't even give the user to choice to get more addresses. People are still being forced to run NAT in response to address scarcity. We could only tell for sure if people would still run NAT for other reasons if addresses were readily available. I ended up finding a different ISP who charged more money, but gave me more bandwidth and the addresses I wanted. Most people would not be willing to do that and would be forced to run NAT. Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 18:08:59 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD28xgs021786; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD28xAb021785; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD28tgs021778 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD294Mq021005 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from roll.mentat.com (mentat.com [192.88.122.129]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28946 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:08:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from leo.mentat.com (leo [192.88.122.132]) by roll.mentat.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA07069; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from feller.mentat.com (feller [192.88.122.144]) by leo.mentat.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA29702; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tim@localhost) by feller.mentat.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id SAA01413; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:12:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:12:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Hartrick Message-Id: <200212130212.SAA01413@feller.mentat.com> To: mrw@windriver.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, Bob, > > >In my opinion, the only way that we will stop people from using NAT > >(with or without IPv6 site-local addresses) will be to provider better > >(architecturally cleaner, more convenient, more functional) mechanisms > >for people to get the same benefits that they get from NATs today. > >Although NATs may have started as a response to address space shortage, > >today their use is driven by the needs for provider-independent addressing > >and convenient access control. So, we need to work on better ways to > >provide those things in IPv6. > > I am not sure that this is really true. When I was looking for a new DSL > provider I found that in many cases I could get service at a specific > bandwidth with a singe address for about $60 a month. If I wanted a /29 > instead, it would cost about $30 more a month. 50% more for 6 usable > addresses! I think this is fairly common. The lower cost DSL providers > doen't even give the user to choice to get more addresses. People are > still being forced to run NAT in response to address scarcity. We could > only tell for sure if people would still run NAT for other reasons if > addresses were readily available. > > I ended up finding a different ISP who charged more money, but gave me more > bandwidth and the addresses I wanted. Most people would not be willing to > do that and would be forced to run NAT. > I believe that Bob has it right here. Enterprises may well use NAT for provider independence and easier multi-homing, but in the home and small business area NAT is driven by address scarcity. That address scarcity is artificial in many cases. ISPs can charge for address space so they do. No one is going to give up NAT unless they can get all the address space they want and only be charged for bandwidth. That will require some business model surgery on consumer ISPs. As I have said multiple times during this long debate, we need to work on solutions in both these spaces. To fix the "ISP can charge for address space so they do" part we need to have a renumbering solution that doesn't require home and small business users to break internal communication in order to renumber. We kind of had that with the router renumbering specification but that appears doomed at this point. Without that lever in the hands of consumers, ISPs will simply continue to charge for "extra" addresses and NAT will follow. Even with it NAT might follow but without it NAT is a near certainty. If these renumbering solutions scale to the enterprise, all the better but the enterprise also has to deal with multi- homing. Tim Hartrick Mentat Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 12 23:43:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD7hFgs023021; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBD7hFJL023020; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:43:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBD7hCgs023013 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBD7hMMq020043 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16267 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:43:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from d12relay01.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.22]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gBD7h6LE074436; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:43:06 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay01.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gBD7h4TF095822; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:43:05 +0100 Received: from dhcp23-27.zurich.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61278 from ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:43:01 +0100 Message-Id: <3DF85B98.47A87690@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:49:12 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Moore Cc: awhite@arc.corp.mot.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt References: <200212120012.gBC0CBj21410@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > > > I'm still unsure about this insistence on /48 as a critical point of > > allocation. > > renumbering is a lot more painful if you're trying to renumber > between prefixes of different lengths. Exactly. And we agreed a long time ago on /48 as the normal (but not architecturally required) prefix length for every site, except for degenerate /64 sites with no subnetting. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 04:58:38 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDCwcgs024724; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDCwcCK024723; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:58:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDCwZgs024716 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDCwiMq010612 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (webmail33.rediffmail.com [203.199.83.245] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA14140 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20454 invoked by uid 510); 13 Dec 2002 12:58:11 -0000 Date: 13 Dec 2002 12:58:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20021213125811.20453.qmail@mailweb33.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.197.138.194) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 13 dec 2002 12:58:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "aridaman kaushik" Reply-To: "aridaman kaushik" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all, I am novice to Ipv6. I have doubts regarding tunnelling. 1. What is meaning of enabling/disabling of tunneling. Is it means ceartion and deletion of tunnels. regards ari. ________________________________________________________________ NIIT supports World Computer Literacy Day on 2nd December. Enroll for NIIT SWIFT Jyoti till 2nd December for only Rs. 749 and get free Indian Languages Office software worth Rs. 2500. For details contact your nearest NIIT centre, SWIFT Point or click here http://swift.rediff.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 05:53:42 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDDrggs024905; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDDrgjI024904; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDDrdgs024897 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDDrmbB005147 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14052 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 06:53:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.1]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA22522; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:53:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021213085017.0290c708@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:52:49 -0500 To: "aridaman kaushik" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <20021213125811.20453.qmail@mailweb33.rediffmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ari, At 12:58 PM 12/13/2002 +0000, aridaman kaushik wrote: >Hi all, > I am novice to Ipv6. I have doubts regarding tunnelling. > >1. What is meaning of enabling/disabling of tunneling. Is it means >ceartion and deletion of tunnels. I am not sure of the context in which you are asking the question... Tunneling is usually implemented so that the tunnel appears to be an interface, from the perspective of the stack. So, the tunneling interface could be administratively enabled or disabled. Some implementations may also offer you the option of whether to enable or disable the tunneling feature at compile time, or through system configuration. If you can provide more context for your question, I may be able to provide a more complete answer. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 07:43:40 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDFhegs025172; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDFheJE025171; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDFhbgs025164 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDFhjMq012716 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com (mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com [63.78.179.217]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00805 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:43:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from davir04nok.americas.nokia.com (davir04nok.americas.nokia.com [172.18.242.87]) by mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBDFhd805839 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:43:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by davir04nok.americas.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:43:39 -0600 Received: from daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.242.238]) by daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:42:55 -0800 Received: from nokia.com ([172.18.5.106]) by daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:42:50 -0600 Message-ID: <3DF9FFF6.326671FD@nokia.com> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:42:46 -0800 From: Mukesh Gupta Organization: Nokia Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Nokia} (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aridaman kaushik CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: References: <20021212085646.5304.qmail@webmail25.rediffmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2002 15:42:50.0917 (UTC) FILETIME=[4B36E550:01C2A2BE] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ari, > I have a doubt regarding ipv6 over ipv4 tunnel. I think your questions are pretty generic to any IPinIP tunnels. > 1. When a tunnel is configured, source and destination is > configured. > Is it sufficient to configure destination address only. My means > to say why source address is required. You need to put these source and destination addresses in the tunnel header of the packet. The source address is required so that the router at the other end of the tunnel can send the packets back to the router who tunnelled the packet. > 2. Is it necessary to establish path between source and > destination before configuring tunnel and use this path in routing > header of tunneled packet for forwarding the packet. I don't think that's necessary. You could just tunnel the packet and forward it as a normal IP packet. The tunnelled packet has the outer IP header (tunnel IP header) which is sufficient to forward the packet throughout the path. > 3. I have one more doubt, when there is concept of fast path and > slow path, which functionality of the tunnelling should go to the > fast path and which functionality of tunnelling should go to the > slow path. I think, the tunnel processing (encapsulating the packet in another IP header) should be done in slow path. regards Mukesh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 08:08:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDG8Dgs025340; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDG8DuT025339; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:08:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDG8Ags025332 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDG8IbB004772 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from cgprelay.ua.pt (smtprelay.ua.pt [193.136.80.103]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03731 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:08:12 -0700 (MST) X-UA: Message Inspected for Viruses by RAV Received: from [193.136.92.65] (HELO trantor.it.pt) by cgprelay.ua.pt (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.2) with ESMTP id 5917825 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:08:11 +0000 Received: from verne.av.it.pt (verne.av.it.pt [193.136.92.50]) by trantor.it.pt (sendmail) with ESMTP id 3424F2C71 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:03:16 +0000 (PWT) Received: from IT/SpoolDir by verne.av.it.pt (Mercury 1.47); 13 Dec 02 16:05:09 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by IT (Mercury 1.47); 13 Dec 02 16:05:01 +0100 Received: from gordon (193.136.92.225) by verne.av.it.pt (Mercury 1.47); 13 Dec 02 16:04:55 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01c2a2c1$9785a060$e15c88c1@gordon> From: "sipa" To: "ietf ipv6 mailing list" Subject: 6over4 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:06:27 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2A2C1.9771CA40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2A2C1.9771CA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! we are using the microsoft dual stack ipv6 implementation on a w2k. when = we connect this pc to a cisco dual stack router, the 6over4 interface of = the pc makes a router solicitation(we know that it comes from this = interface cause it's a encapsulated packet). Must this interface receive = or not a router advertisement, and why? Thanks!!! ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2A2C1.9771CA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!
we are using the microsoft dual stack = ipv6=20 implementation on a w2k. when we connect this pc to a cisco dual stack = router,=20 the 6over4 interface of the pc makes a router solicitation(we know that = it comes=20 from this interface cause it's a encapsulated packet). Must this = interface=20 receive or not a router advertisement, and why?
 
Thanks!!!
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C2A2C1.9771CA40-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 08:58:36 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDGwZgs026159; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDGwZ6x026158; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDGwVgs026148 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDGwdMq029495 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09459 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:58:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBDGwOj04853; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:58:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212131658.gBDGwOj04853@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden cc: Keith Moore , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] In-reply-to: (Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:01:20 PST.") <4.3.2.7.2.20021212165403.02e6b938@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:58:24 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I also have the notion that the current approach of combining the locator > and identifier in IPv4 and IPv6 has a lot of value that we tend to take for > granted. It provides a degree of authentication that requires lots of > cryptographic technology to replicate if they are separated. Instead of a > bug, I think it is a feature :-) I have argued for years that this should be viewed as an engineering compromise rather than a design flaw. These days the prevailing view seems to be that it is a flaw, but the people who espouse that view haven't had to be the burden of actually making it work. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 09:14:31 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDHEUgs026345; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDHEU9B026344; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDHEQgs026337 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDHEZMq004169 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08088 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBDHESj05601; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:14:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212131714.gBDHESj05601@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Bob Hinden cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt In-reply-to: (Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:11:40 PST.") <4.3.2.7.2.20021212170223.01e9ea50@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:14:28 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > Ignoring the area field (that I am starting to think was a mistake) for a > minute, the idea in the draft is that one could have site-local prefixes > that are independent from the global prefixes and would not have to be > renumbered. operationally I think it would be a mess to have site-locals routed differently within a site than globals. it's not that you can't do it, it's that it makes life more difficult, and GUPIs seem to be a better way to solve the same problem. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 09:20:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDHKGgs026400; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:20:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDHKFbo026399; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:20:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDHKCgs026392 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDHKKbB027266 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:20:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03542 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:20:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBDHJxj05632; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:20:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212131720.gBDHJxj05632@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Tim Hartrick cc: mrw@windriver.com, hinden@iprg.nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-reply-to: (Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:12:35 PST.") <200212130212.SAA01413@feller.mentat.com> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:19:59 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > I believe that Bob has it right here. Enterprises may well use NAT for > provider independence and easier multi-homing, but in the home and > small business area NAT is driven by address scarcity. That address scarcity > is artificial in many cases. ISPs can charge for address space so they do. okay, but don't forget commodity pricing. "single IP address" is the market norm, it's what most users currently expect. anything different would be more expensive just because of the nuisance factor. that, and use of NAT is the current "conventional wisdom". this is changing, but it's taking awhile. also NATs are in some sense invisible. I don't know of any vendor that labels SOHO NAT boxes for what they are - they just claim that they are "connection sharing" boxes, or worse, "routers" - as if translating addresses were inherently a part of IP routing. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 15:17:28 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDNHRgs027769; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDNHRMP027768; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDNHOgs027761 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDNHXMq003928 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com (ithilien.qualcomm.com [129.46.51.59]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03195 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:17:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from neophyte.qualcomm.com (neophyte.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.149]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.3/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id gBDNHPmI026772 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from SIVAV.qualcomm.com (sivav.qualcomm.com [129.46.222.34]) by neophyte.qualcomm.com (8.12.3/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id gBDNHOsd007193 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20021213135845.01e10ed8@jittlov.qualcomm.com> X-Sender: sivav@jittlov.qualcomm.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:17:23 -0800 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Siva Veerepalli Subject: DAD for stateful address autoconfig Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The IPv6 Stateless Address autoconfiguration RFC states that address obtained via stateful address autoconfig should be tested for uniqueness. For stateful address config, since state is maintained it is unlikely that the same address would be assigned to two different interfaces. Isn't it? Why then is DAD required when an address is obtained via stateful address autoconfig? Thanks, Siva -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 13 15:33:47 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDNXlgs027868; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBDNXlNr027867; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBDNXigs027860 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBDNXqbB005373 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11280 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id PAA18740; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBDNXkQ14516; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:46 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212132333> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (4.22.78.99, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdpKObuz; Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:43 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213111031.02572348@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:33:10 -0800 To: Keith Moore From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200212131714.gBDHESj05601@astro.cs.utk.edu> References: <(Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:11:40 PST.") <4.3.2.7.2.20021212170223.01e9ea50@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith, >operationally I think it would be a mess to have site-locals routed >differently within a site than globals. it's not that you can't do it, >it's that it makes life more difficult, and GUPIs seem to be a better >way to solve the same problem. I am not sure there is that much difference. In the current /48 provider based global addresses, each subnet is identified by a /64 prefix. Both approaches will generate /64 routes. I suspect that only in the largest sites, will the subnet field also be used for aggregation inside of the site. This is all about tradeoffs. For example in the site-local prefix FEC0::/10, there are 54-bits available for global identification and subnet numbering. If 16-bits are for subnets, then there are 38-bits left for global site identification. Is this big enough for a global token? Probably not if it a random number or based on some other existing global identifier. Might be OK if it was centrally allocated, but who is going to do that? Also, what about sites that need more than 16-bits of subnets? We could use a shorter prefix, but how much of the total IPv6 address space do we want to use for this? For example, a /2 prefix would allow 16-bits of subnets and a 46-bit token. But this would use 1/4 of the total IPv6 address space. That doesn't seem wise. So I am not sure there is any solution that has the three properties: 1) globally unique 2) 16-bit subnet field 3) Uses a limited amount of the IPv6 address space We may have to pick the two we think are the most important. The current site-local definition has 2) and 3). My global site local proposal has 1) and 3). Andrew White's draft has 1) and 3). Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 14 03:05:32 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEB5Wgs028919; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBEB5Wa8028918; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:05:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEB5Tgs028911 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBEB5cbB017051 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (webmail26.rediffmail.com [203.199.83.148] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA29312 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 03:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7179 invoked by uid 510); 14 Dec 2002 11:04:55 -0000 Date: 14 Dec 2002 11:04:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20021214110455.7178.qmail@webmail26.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.197.138.194) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 14 dec 2002 11:04:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "aridaman kaushik" Reply-To: "aridaman kaushik" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Tunnelling Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all, Thanks for the response. I am not getting why tunnelling mechanism should be in slow path. If we check intel IXP2400 chip, all tunnelling mechanism has been put in fast path. Also, if we consider automatic tunneling, which need to perform look up for a ipv4 route. Forwarding table will be in fast path and we try to perform route look up for a particular route. How will it work? regards ari. Hi Ari, > I have a doubt regarding ipv6 over ipv4 tunnel. I think your questions are pretty generic to any IPinIP tunnels. >1. When a tunnel is configured, source and destination is >configured. >Is it sufficient to configure destination address only. My >means >to say why source address is required. You need to put these source and destination addresses in the tunnel header of the packet. The source address is required so that the router at the other end of the tunnel can send the packets back to the router who tunnelled the packet. >2. Is it necessary to establish path between source and >destination before configuring tunnel and use this path in >routing >header of tunneled packet for forwarding the packet. I don't think that's necessary. You could just tunnel the packet and forward it as a normal IP packet. The tunnelled packet has the outer IP header (tunnel IP header) which is sufficient to forward the packet throughout the path. >3. I have one more doubt, when there is concept of fast path >and >slow path, which functionality of the tunnelling should go to >the >fast path and which functionality of tunnelling should go to >the >slow path. I think, the tunnel processing (encapsulating the packet in another IP header) should be done in slow path. regards Mukesh -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 14 08:33:01 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEGX1gs029501; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBEGX1UF029500; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:33:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEGWwgs029493 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBEGX7bB018979 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com (mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com [63.78.179.217]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14318 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:33:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from davir04nok.americas.nokia.com (davir04nok.americas.nokia.com [172.18.242.87]) by mgw-dax2.ext.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBEGWx826561 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:32:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by davir04nok.americas.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:32:58 -0600 Received: from daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.242.238]) by daebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:31:42 -0800 Received: from nokia.com ([172.21.192.101]) by daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:31:40 -0600 Message-ID: <3DFB5CE6.64D08A15@nokia.com> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:31:34 -0800 From: Mukesh Gupta Organization: Nokia Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Nokia} (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ext Richard Nelson CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, john.loughney@nokia.com Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C63@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3DF82699.DE26E138@eng.monash.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2002 16:31:41.0060 (UTC) FILETIME=[4820FC40:01C2A38E] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for pointing this out Richard. I agree with you. I (and at least one more guy I know) had the same confusion. We could not figure out what the whole section meant :-( ext Richard Nelson wrote: > I've read this a couple of times and I find the security section (sec 8) > quite confusing. I am not a security expert but it appears to me that > it is not consistent. > > In particular sec 8.2 says "AH [RFC-2402] must be supported." It then > goes on to say "there is no real need for AH" and in both section 8.1 > and 8.3 there are items that "MUST be supported if AH is implemented". > It would seem the if is redundant or something is wrong. > > Equally, section 8.1 says that "IPSec tunnel mode MUST be supported" > and then goes on to say "case .... MUST be supported if IPSec tunnel > mode is implemented." > > The first paragraph of section 8.3 finishes with the sentance "Note that > the IPSec WG also recommends not using this algorithm." It is not clear > to me which of the three algorithms mentioned in that paragraph this > sentance refers to. > > It seems from section 8.3 that there are four encryption algorithms that > must be supported AES-128-CBC, HMAC-SHA-1-96, HMAC-MD5-96 and > HMAC-SHA-256. I think this section could however be worded more > clearly. It would also be good if the appropriate RFCs were referenced > in the text. > > From the point of view of very small devices, whilst I understand that > IPSec support is a requirement, it seems that requiring transport mode > and tunnel mode, AH and ESP and four algorithms (plus null encryption) > seems onerous. I wasn't part of any discussion on this, but I would > appreciate it if someone would explain particularly why so many > algorithms are required. > > Finally a small editorial nit. There are lots of "is MUST"s and few > "is SHOULD"s in the document that should be "MUST"s and "SHOULD"s. > > Richard. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 14 08:34:11 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEGYBgs029518; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBEGYAAT029517; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEGY7gs029510 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBEGYHMq000861 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-dax1.ext.nokia.com (mgw-dax1.ext.nokia.com [63.78.179.216]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21896 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from davir01nok.americas.nokia.com (davir01nok.americas.nokia.com [172.18.242.84]) by mgw-dax1.ext.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBEGYDE01886 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:34:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from daebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by davir01nok.americas.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:34:09 -0600 Received: from daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.18.242.238]) by daebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:27:45 -0600 Received: from nokia.com ([172.21.192.101]) by daebe008.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:27:42 -0600 Message-ID: <3DFB5BF7.EAFF9E6D@nokia.com> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 08:27:35 -0800 From: Mukesh Gupta Organization: Nokia Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Nokia} (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aridaman kaushik CC: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Tunnelling References: <20021214110455.7178.qmail@webmail26.rediffmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Dec 2002 16:27:42.0979 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA38B530:01C2A38D] Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I didn't say that the tunnel processing can not be done in fast path. Here is what you could do. When you create the tunnel, cache the route/nexthop needed to reach the destination (the tunnel exit point) and create a sudo tunnel header in advance. Sudo tunnel header can have all the fields in place and the checksum computed for them. Now when you have all this information, you could do a route lookup for the destination address of the received packet in fastpath and if the route returned is the tunnel route, append the already prepared header and compute the incremental checksum. You already have the cached nexthop, forward the packet. Update the cached route/nexthop on route change events. Hope this helps. regards Mukesh ext aridaman kaushik wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks for the response. > I am not getting why tunnelling mechanism should be in slow > path. > If we check intel IXP2400 chip, all tunnelling mechanism has > been put > in fast path. > Also, if we consider automatic tunneling, which need to perform > look > up for a ipv4 route. Forwarding table will be in fast path and > we try > to perform route look up for a particular route. How will it > work? > > regards > ari. > > Hi Ari, > > > I have a doubt regarding ipv6 over ipv4 tunnel. > > I think your questions are pretty generic to any IPinIP tunnels. > > >1. When a tunnel is configured, source and destination is > >configured. > >Is it sufficient to configure destination address only. My > >means > >to say why source address is required. > > You need to put these source and destination addresses in the > tunnel > header of the packet. The source address is required so that the > router > at the other end of the tunnel can send the packets back to the > router > who tunnelled the packet. > > >2. Is it necessary to establish path between source and > >destination before configuring tunnel and use this path in > >routing > >header of tunneled packet for forwarding the packet. > > I don't think that's necessary. You could just tunnel the packet > and > forward it as a normal IP packet. The tunnelled packet has the > outer IP > header (tunnel IP header) which is sufficient to forward the > packet > throughout the path. > > >3. I have one more doubt, when there is concept of fast path > >and > >slow path, which functionality of the tunnelling should go to > >the > >fast path and which functionality of tunnelling should go to > >the > >slow path. > > I think, the tunnel processing (encapsulating the packet in > another IP > header) should be done in slow path. > > regards > Mukesh > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List > IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng > FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng > Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 14 12:24:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEKOFgs000080; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBEKOE8P000079; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBEKOBgs000072 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBEKOLbB015415 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2000.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (adsl-209-233-126-65.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [209.233.126.65]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20294 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:24:14 -0700 (MST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:24:15 -0800 Message-ID: <2B81403386729140A3A899A8B39B04640BD524@server2000> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Thread-Index: AcKiSMhL2Cgjq9HVQUSx4/RApAEnmwAC/Mng From: "Michel Py" To: "Bob Hinden" , "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBEKOBgs000073 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Bob, >> Margaret Wasserwan wrote: >> In my opinion, the only way that we will stop people from >> using NAT (with or without IPv6 site-local addresses) will >> be to provider better (architecturally cleaner, more >> convenient, more functional) mechanisms for people to get >> the same benefits that they get from NATs today. Although >> NATs may have started as a response to address space >> shortage, today their use is driven by the needs for >> provider-independent addressing and convenient access >> control. So, we need to work on better ways to provide >> those things in IPv6. > Bob Hinden wrote: > I am not sure that this is really true. When I was looking > for a new DSL provider I found that in many cases I could get > service> at a specific bandwidth with a singe address for about > $60 a month. If I wanted a /29 instead, it would cost about > $30 more a month. 50% more for 6 usable addresses! I vote with my wallet and this kind of ISP does not have my business. It's weird you are out of PacBell's reach in bay area. Pacbell's prices are $49.95 for one dynamic IP and $64.95 for a /29. Frankly I would not mind paying $15/mo more to have a /29 and I don't think it is an unreasonable price. [this is not a free add for Pacbell; their email stinks]. As always market will decide. That being said, I don't see how this applies to IPv6. Given the fact that lots of people are giving away /48 tunnels, and that a single IPv4 address also brings a 6to4 /48 prefix, I don't think that there is any relation between the scarcity of IPv6 addresses and the development of IPv6 NAT. Which leaves us with the main motive behind the development of IPv6 NAT being the desire for provider independant addresses. Michel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 14 23:05:05 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBF755gs001151; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBF755RR001150; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:05:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBF751gs001143 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBF75BMq007956 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07410 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:05:05 -0800 (PST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBF74L029384 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:04:22 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:05:03 +0200 Received: from esebe013.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.52]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:05:03 +0200 Received: from esebe022.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.113]) by esebe013.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:05:03 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:05:02 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Thread-Index: AcKjjksThZTR8jr0QGmFTQLk/ts23gAedVpA To: , Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Dec 2002 07:05:03.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A6A9DB0:01C2A408] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBF752gs001144 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Gupta, > Thanks for pointing this out Richard. I agree with you. I (and at least one > more guy I know) had the same confusion. We could not figure out what the > whole section meant :-( The security section needs a re-write. Some of the confusion on the section is due to the fact that it was written by a non-native English speaker. The next revision will be improved. Suggestions always welcomed. John -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 01:55:57 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBF9tvgs001448; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBF9tvuv001447; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:55:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBF9trgs001440 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBF9u4bB003417 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from p2.piuha.net (p2.piuha.net [131.160.192.2]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00470 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 02:55:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from kolumbus.fi (p4.piuha.net [131.160.192.4]) by p2.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F786A905; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:55:50 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DFC51C3.8020400@kolumbus.fi> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:56:19 +0200 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021003 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mukesh Gupta Cc: ext Richard Nelson , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, john.loughney@nokia.com Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C63@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3DF82699.DE26E138@eng.monash.edu.au> <3DFB5CE6.64D08A15@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I agree with the comments. That section needs a rewrite. A couple of points I wanted to raise, however: - In this document, we want to describe the situation as it is in the other RFCs. For instance, if the IPsec RFCs say you must support AH and ESP then we say it here too. If the situation changes in the future then we we will be updating this spec. - The same applies to algorithms as well. Someone complained about the many algorithms. Some algorithms (DES, MD5, SHA1) are mandated by the RFCs. However, in this case we have a serious problem in the sense that the IPsec RFCs are from some other millenium and the encryption algorithm choices are considered bad by the IPsec WG and others. I'm personally NOT going to feel very good about accepting a document that says you MUST use DES without even mentioning that its actually a bad choice. One should consider 3DES or AES instead. So I think we need to state something about those algorithms too. I wish the IPsec WG completed the AES spec (not sure about current status) so we could at least forget 3DES. In conclusion its not very easy to get rid of the long list of algorithms. Jari -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 10:33:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFIXEgs002005; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFIXEU1002004; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:33:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFIXBgs001997 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFIXKbB015429 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from goatelecom.com ([61.1.72.28]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12375 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:32:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from Njqpiwrk (dialup-73-205.goatelecom.com [61.1.73.205]) by goatelecom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id gBFIj2g05112 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:15:05 +0530 (IST) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:15:05 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <200212151845.gBFIj2g05112@goatelecom.com> From: fenner To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: A special funny website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=TfqhW9U19L25J Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --TfqhW9U19L25J Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello,This is a very funny website
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--TfqhW9U19L25J-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 14:43:43 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhggs003793; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFMhfAT003775; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhcgs003768 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFMhlDp013118 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14287 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:43:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBFMiI1q000733; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:44:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:19:01 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209093443.02b16dc8@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <111DB9FE-1062-11D7-BE91-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >> One thing I have been think of. Do we know what the increased >> prefix-length does to implementations and the effect on convergence >> times? What I would like to do is have someone load a bunch of >> routers up with the current 130k routes but with a prefix length of >> 128n bits, what happens? What is the cost? > > I don't know if anyone has studied this. It is a very interesting > question. My concern with this is that there are a lot more factors like the above one that we do not know the answer to - still we are already talking about solutions. I think we need to understand the problem first. > I have the following things running around in my brain, and they aren't > converging: [snip] > So, where do we go from here? > Actually I think your list was a very good start! The more we can dissect the problem, and try and see the consequences of each of the pieces or the need for each piece, the better final solution we will be able to engineer. But this takes time and in the mean time we need to get a solution out that gives us some breathing space. The solution I suggested is also something that we can back out of. Just as we are doing with the 6bone addresses. What we discussed in Atlanta was that we needed a road-map. I took on the task of writing it and hope to get it out soon. What you wrote is an essential pice of this. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 14:43:50 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhngs003796; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFMhnQn003795; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhfgs003780 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFMhpDp013127 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14307 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:43:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBFMiH1q000730; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:44:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:54:47 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Margaret Wasserman From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021209084722.02af2e50@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> that wouldn't conflict with anyone else's and could be filtered by >>> ISPs, >>> etc. (in case anyone ever makes a mistake and connects an "isolated" >>> network to the Internet). This is actually what site-local addresses >>> (and RFC 1918 addresses) were originally invented for... >> >> Yes, but that didn't really stop anyone.... > > I know. And, it will probably be very tempting for people to use these > addresses behind IPv6 NAT boxes, like in IPv4. > > In my opinion, the only way that we will stop people from using NAT > (with or without IPv6 site-local addresses) will be to provider better > (architecturally cleaner, more convenient, more functional) mechanisms > for people to get the same benefits that they get from NATs today. > Although NATs may have started as a response to address space shortage, > today their use is driven by the needs for provider-independent > addressing > and convenient access control. So, we need to work on better ways to > provide those things in IPv6. I think that there are multiple ways to try and move users to another direction. One is that when there are enough interesting applications that the NAT users can't use because of NAT, they will start looking around. So I think we need to stop creating special cases so applications and functions will work through NAT boxes. This also goes for the transition mechanisms to IPv6. Second, we need to document the negative sides of NAT on applications, as well as ways to achieve the same benefits you mentioned from NAT in other ways. >> Anyway, although I don't like what you suggest above - I think it is >> the only think that we can get some sort of consensus for and move >> on. But I think that we need to learn from the RFC1918 mistake and >> make sure we include a enforcement method. > What sort of enforcement method would you suggest? Well, a first start is to have routers to not route these by default, or preferably not at all. Including them as a MUST filter prefix might also be a good idea. In principal any method we can come up with that a) Don't distribute reachability information b) Enforce packet filtering as default is a step in the right direction. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 14:43:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhogs003799; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFMhoqh003798; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhfgs003777 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFMhpDp013125 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14305 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:43:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBFMiC1q000727; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:44:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:28:53 +0100 Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: "Michel Py" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com To: Keith Moore From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <200212091357.gB9DvEj01038@astro.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >>> not having to have a connection to the public v6 internet in order to >>> get an address block, or if you are connected, having a prefix which >>> is stable across changes in ISPs. >> >> Having a connection or not is a policy decision. Stable addresses is >> an >> issue on creating PI space. There is no real need to make a block >> allocation for this. > > in my understanding of current policies there is no way for > an isolated network to get PI space. That is true for the current policy yes - but we don't need to copy that to IPv6. > one good reason to have a block allocation is to allow ISPs to > filter those prefixes. > don't that take away the point with having them in the global routingtable in the first place? - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 14:44:05 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMi5gs003821; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFMi4ZG003820; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:44:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFMhpgs003801 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFMi1Dp013148 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (dhcp1.kurtis.pp.se [195.43.225.70] (may be forged)) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14336 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:43:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from kurtis.pp.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by laptop2.kurtis.pp.se (8.12.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBFMiL1q000739; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:44:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:48:11 +0100 Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , Michel Py , Pekka Savola , Christian Huitema , To: Quality Quorum From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <2443F84E-1066-11D7-BE91-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > If can we provide a compelling architecture without private address > then there should be no private addresses, otherwise NAT is a force > major > issue and we have to redo all the applications which are broken by NAT > (peeing against the wind has its obvious perils, so there is no reason > to get upset.). > I like to see this the other way around. If we invent new applications that won't work through NAT - people might find an incentive to not use it. - kurtis - -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 15:02:46 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFN2kgs004276; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFN2kQ3004275; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFN2ggs004268 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFN2rDp015533 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:02:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ALPHA9.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha9.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.9]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04508 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.72]) by vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KQ3GO6NHY695PNYT@vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:02:36 +1100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9653312C147; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:02:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (kiwi.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.104]) by thwack.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9B012C144; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:02:36 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:02:28 +1100 From: Richard Nelson Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt X-Sender: "Richard Nelson" To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: Mukesh.Gupta@nokia.com, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <3DFD0A04.7D589D7F@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD monwin/023 (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > > Suggestions always welcomed. I quite liked the text in the final LCNA draft. But it clearly doesn't meet the requirements Jari covered in his post. Richard. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 15:05:13 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFN5Dgs004302; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBFN5C61004301; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBFN59gs004294 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBFN5JDp015825 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:05:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ALPHA8.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha8.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.8]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22125 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:05:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from splat.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.73]) by vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KQ3GRAT01496W8ID@vaxh.cc.monash.edu.au> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:05:07 +1100 Received: from splat.its.monash.edu.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B9E13006B; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:05:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (kiwi.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.104]) by splat.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E12130075; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:04:12 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:04:04 +1100 From: Richard Nelson Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt X-Sender: "Richard Nelson" To: Jari Arkko Cc: Mukesh Gupta , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, john.loughney@nokia.com Message-id: <3DFD0A64.BB17CB69@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD monwin/023 (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <9C422444DE99BC46B3AD3C6EAFC9711B02BE9C63@tayexc13.americas.cpqcorp.net> <3DF82699.DE26E138@eng.monash.edu.au> <3DFB5CE6.64D08A15@nokia.com> <3DFC51C3.8020400@kolumbus.fi> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Thanks for that, it certainly explains a bit. Can I suggest that in the re-write these considerations are made more explicit. Richard. Jari Arkko wrote: > > I agree with the comments. That section needs a rewrite. A couple > of points I wanted to raise, however: > > - In this document, we want to describe the situation as it is in > the other RFCs. For instance, if the IPsec RFCs say you must > support AH and ESP then we say it here too. If the situation > changes in the future then we we will be updating this spec. > > - The same applies to algorithms as well. Someone complained about > the many algorithms. Some algorithms (DES, MD5, SHA1) are mandated > by the RFCs. However, in this case we have a serious problem in > the sense that the IPsec RFCs are from some other millenium and > the encryption algorithm choices are considered bad by the IPsec > WG and others. I'm personally NOT going to feel very good about accepting > a document that says you MUST use DES without even mentioning > that its actually a bad choice. One should consider 3DES > or AES instead. So I think we need to state something about > those algorithms too. I wish the IPsec WG completed the AES > spec (not sure about current status) so we could at least > forget 3DES. > > In conclusion its not very easy to get rid of the long list > of algorithms. > > Jari -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 20:58:54 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG4wsgs004899; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG4wsBo004898; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG4wpgs004891 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG4x1bB024787 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19957 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:58:55 -0800 (PST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBG4wA029605 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:58:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:58:53 +0200 Received: from esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.56]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:58:52 +0200 Received: from esebe022.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.113]) by esebe017.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:58:52 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:58:50 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Thread-Index: AcKkICpc/lNQD8+tQG+sfKJRe2GyxgAn34GQ To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2002 04:58:52.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[D406F610:01C2A4BF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBG4wpgs004892 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Jari, Thanks for the summary, I agree with you. Just a general note, the Node Requirements document cannot specify new behavior for IP security, I think it would be useful to have some work get started to review and update this info. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@kolumbus.fi] > Sent: 15 December, 2002 11:56 > To: Gupta Mukesh (IPRG/MtView) > Cc: ext Richard Nelson; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Loughney John > (NRC/Helsinki) > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt > > > I agree with the comments. That section needs a rewrite. A couple > of points I wanted to raise, however: > > - In this document, we want to describe the situation as it is in > the other RFCs. For instance, if the IPsec RFCs say you must > support AH and ESP then we say it here too. If the situation > changes in the future then we we will be updating this spec. > > - The same applies to algorithms as well. Someone complained about > the many algorithms. Some algorithms (DES, MD5, SHA1) are mandated > by the RFCs. However, in this case we have a serious problem in > the sense that the IPsec RFCs are from some other millenium and > the encryption algorithm choices are considered bad by the IPsec > WG and others. I'm personally NOT going to feel very good > about accepting > a document that says you MUST use DES without even mentioning > that its actually a bad choice. One should consider 3DES > or AES instead. So I think we need to state something about > those algorithms too. I wish the IPsec WG completed the AES > spec (not sure about current status) so we could at least > forget 3DES. > > In conclusion its not very easy to get rid of the long list > of algorithms. > > Jari > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 22:03:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG63Lgs005318; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG63LDi005317; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG63Igs005310 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG63RbB002388 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29316 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:03:22 -0800 (PST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir05nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.37]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBG62a024300 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:02:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir05nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:03:18 +0200 Received: from esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.86]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:03:18 +0200 Received: from esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.57]) by esebh005.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:03:17 +0200 Received: from esebe022.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.113]) by esebe018.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:03:16 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:03:16 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Thread-Index: AcKkjm95uMImpnRZTK+glyKfsMrClAAOlJJQ To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Dec 2002 06:03:16.0948 (UTC) FILETIME=[D38D9140:01C2A4C8] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBG63Igs005311 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Richard, > Thanks for that, it certainly explains a bit. Can I suggest that in the > re-write these considerations are made more explicit. If you want to suggest the re-writes yourself, I would be happy to see them. john -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 22:13:16 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG6DGgs005488; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG6DGZK005487; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:13:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG6DDgs005480 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG6DNDp006911 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from realname ([203.254.224.24]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28598 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:13:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout1.samsung.com by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H770040C8CIAE@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:21:54 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H77008O68CBEV@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:21:47 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H7700CRV89NZV@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:20:11 +0900 (KST) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:11:24 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: DAD for stateful address autoconfig In-reply-to: <4.3.1.2.20021213135845.01e10ed8@jittlov.qualcomm.com> To: "'Siva Veerepalli'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <000f01c2a4c9$f62a6330$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk actually DAD has a redundant processing, because it is far more likely to succeed than fail. as "Optimistic DAD" "....where the collision probability is likely to be much higher due to human error. " Daniel -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com [mailto:owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com] On Behalf Of Siva Veerepalli Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:17 AM To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: DAD for stateful address autoconfig The IPv6 Stateless Address autoconfiguration RFC states that address obtained via stateful address autoconfig should be tested for uniqueness. For stateful address config, since state is maintained it is unlikely that the same address would be assigned to two different interfaces. Isn't it? Why then is DAD required when an address is obtained via stateful address autoconfig? Thanks, Siva -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 23:37:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG7bNgs005808; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG7bMLe005807; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:37:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG7bJgs005800 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:37:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG7bSbB013832 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16438 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33234B22; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:37:21 +0900 (JST) To: Soohong Daniel Park Cc: "'Siva Veerepalli'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: soohong.park's message of Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:11:24 +0900. <000f01c2a4c9$f62a6330$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: DAD for stateful address autoconfig From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:37:21 +0900 Message-Id: <20021216073721.B33234B22@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >actually DAD has a redundant processing, because it is far more likely >to succeed than fail. >as "Optimistic DAD" >"....where the collision probability is likely to be much higher due to >human error. " what are you trying to mean? optimistic DAD is not really accepted wg consensus, no real deployed codebase... itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 15 23:50:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG7opgs005919; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG7opqe005918; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:50:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG7omgs005911 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG7ovDp018961 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from realname ([203.254.224.24]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12982 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:50:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout1.samsung.com by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H7700904CV5WV@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:59:29 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H77006RUCV5NQ@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:59:29 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H7700CEQCSHZW@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:57:53 +0900 (KST) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:49:06 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: DAD for stateful address autoconfig In-reply-to: <20021216073721.B33234B22@coconut.itojun.org> To: itojun@iijlab.net Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <001101c2a4d7$9c1d8760$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk um.... I just speak for collision probalility during stateful autoconfiguration, not related to the Optimistic DAD. Daniel -----Original Message----- From: itojun@itojun.org [mailto:itojun@itojun.org] On Behalf Of itojun@iijlab.net Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:37 PM To: Soohong Daniel Park Cc: 'Siva Veerepalli'; ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: DAD for stateful address autoconfig >actually DAD has a redundant processing, because it is far more likely >to succeed than fail. as "Optimistic DAD" >"....where the collision probability is likely to be much higher due to >human error. " what are you trying to mean? optimistic DAD is not really accepted wg consensus, no real deployed codebase... itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 16 00:22:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG8Mogs006053; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBG8MosA006052; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:22:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBG8Mlgs006045 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBG8MvDp027276 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p2.piuha.net (p2.piuha.net [131.160.192.2]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04652 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:22:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from kolumbus.fi (p4.piuha.net [131.160.192.4]) by p2.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF886A905; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:22:50 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DFD8D78.4030202@kolumbus.fi> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:23:20 +0200 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021003 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: Mukesh.Gupta@nokia.com, richard.nelson@eng.monash.edu.au, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk john.loughney@nokia.com wrote: > Hi Jari, > > Thanks for the summary, I agree with you. Just a general note, > the Node Requirements document cannot specify new behavior > for IP security, I think it would be useful to have some work > get started to review and update this info. There is ongoing work: - draft-ietf-ipsec-esp-v3-03.txt forgets DES and only references AES as a mandatory ESP requirement. - draft-ietf-ipsec-ciph-aes-cbc-04.txt is the AES definition for IPsec. - There should be some ongoing work for RFC 2401 bis, but I don't seem to be able to find the draft. This work might say something about AH's status. I'm not sure that work completes in time for us; I've been waiting for the AES spec to complete for some time already. I'll check with the IPsec folks on when they think these documents are ready to be referenced by us. It would be great if we could reference the new documents. Jari -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 16 03:12:00 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGBC0gs006444; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBGBC0uF006443; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:12:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGBBvgs006436 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBGBC6Dp016952 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (mailgw1.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.62]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11338 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 04:11:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBGBBvj10466 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from kso.esk.fhg.de (dhcp-153-96-161-2.esk.fhg.de [153.96.161.2]) by mailgw1.fraunhofer.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBGBBul10453 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:56 +0100 (MET) Received: from esk.fhg.de (ksi.esk.fhg.de [192.168.1.30]) by kso.esk.fhg.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gBGBBrd22749 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:53 +0100 (MET) Received: from esk.fhg.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esk.fhg.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gBGBBcl03115 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:38 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3DFDB4FA.1D202D8B@esk.fhg.de> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:54 +0100 From: Walter Zimmer Organization: FhG - ESK X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Food for thought: Shifting layer 2 functionality to layer 3 with IPv6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi! Analyzing the trends in internet technology, which might be summarized as 'towards IP everywhere', I arrived at the following statement: "In a longer timeframe, it makes sense in LANs to incoporate all layer 2 functionality into layer 3." Note: - long timeframe - talking of LANs, not core networks - layer 2 will relly be ethernet - layer 3 will really be IPv6 (I think everybody agrees that this won't come for IPv4 :) Since this is the IPv6 list, I think the people with the most valuable contributions are here. First, lets make a list what functionality ethernet layer 2 includes: A1 - medium access (anyone remembers the good old days of CSMA-CD ? :) A2 - enable local 'routing' (switching) in networking components A3 - broadcast service A4 - multicast service A5 - addressing at layer 2 is needed for autoconfig protocols A6 - ARP is included and necessary for layer 3 operation Note that layer 1 is untouched. There is no better and more cost eficient method of transmitting frames in LANs than ethernet right now, and I think also in the future, because it is designed well and lasting. Here are the arguments supporting the above statement: B1 - In the long run, medium access won't be necessary because ethernet is evolving into a tree based architecture even in cost sensitive areas (e.g. at home) (A1). B2 - Routing in a LAN close to the end devices is not significantly more computing-intensive than switching. Therefore, as computing power gets cheaper, it makes sense to build routing-only devices (A2). B3 - Broadcasts are not necessary in IPv6, because we have a far better mechanism (service-specific multicast) already incorporated (A3). B4 - Multicast is also a available in IPv6. B5 - Autoconifg in IPv4 uses IPv6 broadcast protocols (A5). B6 - Address resolution (also NDP) would not be necessary any more (A6). B7 - Office router software will become more simple, because they won't need layer 2 any more. B8 - If the MAC address is included in the IP address anyway, why repeat it in the ethernet header? Better save the bandwidth. B9 - Security is enhanced: ARP cache poisoning is not possible, because the plug-and-play protocol introduced into IPv6 to propagate addresses would be designed with security in mind. Yes, encryption will come, but ARP cache spamming DoS cannot be prevented without modifying ARP. MAC address locking is no real solution since the administrative overhead is to high. The downsides: C1 - It might really be too early to think about this. However, if everybody agrees that it will come, then it might be beneficial to design current RFCs with that in mind. C2 - Simple switches will need redesign to become IPv6 routers. That's the price for B7. C3 - There will be poblems if the transition strategy is poorly designed. Since ethernet chips today don't insist on sending ethernet headers, seamless transition should be possible. C4 - VLANs would be a problem if the flowlabel could not be used for it. I want to collect pros and especially the cons (since a have so few) for this statement, technical and political, so don't hesitate to express them, either via the list or personal. I'll summarize. Also, pointers to other mailing lists or other information resources would be greatly appreciated. Merry christmas, Walter -- Fraunhofer-Einrichtung Systeme der Kommunikationstechnik (ESK) Walter Zimmer Hansastrasse 32 Dipl.-Inf. D-80686 Munich Telefon: +49(0)89-547088-344 walter.zimmer@esk.fraunhofer.de Telefax: +49(0)89-547088-221 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 16 05:41:31 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGDfVgs006965; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBGDfUmL006964; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGDfRgs006957 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBGDfaDp004085 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.237]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21808 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:41:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-4.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gBGDfJXm042332; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:41:20 +0100 Received: from etzel.zurich.ibm.com (etzel.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.64.140]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.12.3/NCO/VER6.4) with SMTP id gBGDfJiA099838; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:41:19 +0100 Received: from dhcp23-27.zurich.ibm.com by etzel.zurich.ibm.com (AIX 4.3/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41520 from ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:41:16 +0100 Message-Id: <3DFDD7DF.59E87AD@hursley.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:40:47 +0100 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,de Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Bob Hinden Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-hinden-ipv6-global-site-local-00.txt References: <(Your message of "Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:11:40 PST.") <4.3.2.7.2.20021212170223.01e9ea50@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20021213111031.02572348@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk below... Bob Hinden wrote: > > Keith, > > >operationally I think it would be a mess to have site-locals routed > >differently within a site than globals. it's not that you can't do it, > >it's that it makes life more difficult, and GUPIs seem to be a better > >way to solve the same problem. > > I am not sure there is that much difference. In the current /48 provider > based global addresses, each subnet is identified by a /64 prefix. Both > approaches will generate /64 routes. I suspect that only in the largest > sites, will the subnet field also be used for aggregation inside of the site. > > This is all about tradeoffs. For example in the site-local prefix > FEC0::/10, there are 54-bits available for global identification and subnet > numbering. If 16-bits are for subnets, then there are 38-bits left for > global site identification. Is this big enough for a global > token? Probably not if it a random number or based on some other existing > global identifier. Might be OK if it was centrally allocated, but who is > going to do that? Also, what about sites that need more than 16-bits of > subnets? > > We could use a shorter prefix, but how much of the total IPv6 address space > do we want to use for this? For example, a /2 prefix would allow 16-bits > of subnets and a 46-bit token. But this would use 1/4 of the total IPv6 > address space. That doesn't seem wise. > > So I am not sure there is any solution that has the three properties: > > 1) globally unique > 2) 16-bit subnet field > 3) Uses a limited amount of the IPv6 address space > > We may have to pick the two we think are the most important. The current > site-local definition has 2) and 3). My global site local proposal has 1) > and 3). Andrew White's draft has 1) and 3). There is the alternative that can definitely be satisfied: 1a) probably unique 2) 16-bit subnet field 3) Uses a limited amount of the IPv6 address space i.e. hash something into 38 bits that has a very high probability of being unique among a finite number of sites. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 16 08:56:35 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGGuZgs008117; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBGGuZeE008116; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:56:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBGGuVgs008109 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBGGufbB003580 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cgprelay.ua.pt (smtprelay.ua.pt [193.136.80.103]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10762 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:56:35 -0800 (PST) X-UA: Message Inspected for Viruses by RAV Received: from [193.136.92.65] (HELO trantor.it.pt) by cgprelay.ua.pt (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.2) with ESMTP id 5956091 for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:56:19 +0000 Received: from verne.av.it.pt (verne.av.it.pt [193.136.92.50]) by trantor.it.pt (sendmail) with ESMTP id AF3D92C71 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:51:22 +0000 (PWT) Received: from IT/SpoolDir by verne.av.it.pt (Mercury 1.47); 16 Dec 02 16:53:16 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by IT (Mercury 1.47); 16 Dec 02 16:53:13 +0100 Received: from gordon (193.136.92.225) by verne.av.it.pt (Mercury 1.47); 16 Dec 02 16:53:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c2a523$d14abdd0$e15c88c1@gordon> From: "sipa" To: "ietf ipv6 mailing list" Subject: Cisco IOS 12.2 experimental Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:54:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2A523.D094DB50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2A523.D094DB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! Does any know how to configure a cisco router with ios 12.2 = experimental, to respond to router solicitations? ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2A523.D094DB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!
Does any know how to configure a cisco = router with=20 ios 12.2 experimental, to respond to router=20 solicitations?
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2A523.D094DB50-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 16 17:51:48 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBH1plgs012628; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:51:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBH1plsw012627; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:51:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBH1phgs012620 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBH1pqDp023241 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from leapster.dwerryhouse.com.au (leapster.zoic.org [203.30.75.10]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12039 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by leapster.dwerryhouse.com.au (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8F0E9146D3; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:51:38 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:51:37 +1100 From: "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: Soohong Daniel Park , "'Siva Veerepalli'" , itojun@iijlab.net Subject: Re: DAD for stateful address autoconfig Message-ID: <20021217125135.A18229@dwerryhouse.com.au> References: <000f01c2a4c9$f62a6330$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> <20021216073721.B33234B22@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20021216073721.B33234B22@coconut.itojun.org>; from itojun@iijlab.net on Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:37:21PM +0900 X-URL: http://zoic.org/sharkey/ Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:37:21PM +0900, itojun@iijlab.net wrote: > > what are you trying to mean? optimistic DAD is not really accepted > wg consensus, no real deployed codebase... Indeed it isn't :-) I think Daniel's point was that the possibility of address collision with stateful address autoconf is perhaps higher than that for stateless address autoconf, due to the possbility of human (developer, sysadmin, user) error. I'm not sure than this is true for this situation, but that's probably why it's in the draft. -----Nick -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 17 01:45:43 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBH9jggs013886; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 01:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBH9jg7r013885; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 01:45:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBH9jdgs013878 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 01:45:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBH9jmbB003114 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 01:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12714 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 01:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBH9je505910; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:45:40 +0200 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:45:40 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com cc: luc.beloeil@francetelecom.com Subject: beloeil-ipv6-dns-resolver-option-00 comments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm also bringing this to the w.g. list, as I believe an RA option for discovering DNS resolvers could be one very viable mechanism. Generic comments: 1) It's not clear to me whether this option is to be included in periodic unsolicited router advertisements, or only in explicit request-reply pairs. Based on the fact that the option includes Code reply/query pair, this seems likely to fall somewhere between the two of these. The way spec is written, the routers which would support DNSR option would not include it in every RA message. (This could be considered both a good and a bad thing.) 2) perhaps it should be explicitly stated, for clarity, that unrecognized DNSR options must be ignored by receivers by RFC2461. 3) Security considerations could use some additional considerations related to adding DNS resolvers in the RS/RA messaging. At least it should be mentioned -- I don't think there's necessarily all that dangerous stuff out there, as if you use RA, you already have quite a lot of trust in the system. 4) On systems which configure manually ie. disable RA-advertisements, I believe this will also not be used? Specifics: The purpose is also to enhance the efficiency of [DISCOVERY] when DHCPv6 servers can not be used. ==> s/servers can not be/is not/ 4.2.2 Passive mode On any link a node MUST listen to Router Advertisements (DISCOVERY]. ==> MUST is news to me. Did I miss something? Purely editorial: This document defines the DNS resolver (DNSR) option used to advertise IPv6 addresses of DNS resolvers on a link. ==> "on a link" is an ambious reference: it could refer to _DNS resolvers_ on a link, or _advertising_ on a link. Because of the deployment of IPv6 network, DNS resolution might become a key issue. ==> please reword the first 7 words, they make no sense :-) 4.2.1 Active mode If a node wants to learn the IPv6 addresses of available DNS resolvers, it SHOULD send a "DNS resolver Query". A "DNS resolver Query" is a Router solicitation with a DNSR option. ==> s/solicitation/Solicitation/ On any link a node MUST listen to Router Advertisements (DISCOVERY]. By that way a node may learn the IPv6 addresses of available DNS resolvers in the case another node has just query for such an information, and that a router has just replied by a Routeur Advertisement including a DNSR option. ==> s/(/[/ ==> s/query/queried/ ==> s/Routeur/Router/ -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 17 15:53:07 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBHNr6gs021694; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBHNr5em021693; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:53:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBHNr2gs021686 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:53:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBHNrCbB005599 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout3.samsung.com ([203.254.224.33]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15699 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout3.samsung.com by mailout3.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H7A00409FOKQ9@mailout3.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:53:08 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout3.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H7A0012QFOJLC@mailout3.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:53:07 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H7A00L9UG072O@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:00:12 +0900 (KST) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:51:17 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt In-reply-to: To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <000901c2a627$33700570$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I am interested in home network of course using of IPv6. When I thought a definition of IPv6 node, I separated two kinds of nodes, one is "active IPv6 node" which need to communicate another node and bidirectional connection the other is "passive IPv6 node" which is just controlled not try to access another node and unidirectional connection As you said below, thermometer is only passive node, therefore it is not need DNS resolving. IPv6 node is very very widely, then almost possibility must be considered not only PC or laptop... e.g. active IPv6 node : almost pc, laptop, PDA, hand-held devices, passive IPv6 node : thermometer, lighting, washer, refrigerator, some kinds of home appliances Daniel From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:09 PM To: soohong.park@samsung.com Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Hi Daniel, > 4.5.5 "....Stateful Address Autoconfiguration MAY be supported...." I > am confusing "MAY" When above node is fail to obtain stateless address > autoconfiguration, if node didn't have Stateful AA function, it is > impossible to make each own address. so I think "Should" is better. In what cases will stateless address autoconfiguration fail? If it fails, there is always the possibility of setting addresses by user interaction (typing in the addresses). Stateful is dependent upon DHCPv6, and users cannot depend that it will be implemented everywhere, especially since it is not a standard yet. > 4.6.1 > This section is more related mobileip, not general IPv6 node > requirement. MobileIP is actually considered as part of IPv6, but I get your point. This I could move into the MIP section. > 5.2 "... Not all nodes will need to resolve addresses" > If yes, how can we obtain wanted address ? , basically we > don't memorize IPv6 address. Some nodes will be servers only and only accept incoming requestions. Think of a thermometer with an IPv6 stack. It will never need DNS. > in addition, as 1.2, Desctiption of an IPv6 node is so ambiguous. In > this draft, almost requirement is for general node which is pc, laptop > and that kind of thing. But implemented IPv6 is not only general node > but also various devices (home appliance, tiny device and so on) > then you should write clear definition of IPv6 node. > Since this requirement will be referred to implement widely, > all section must be clear. It is ambiguous for a reason, as an IPv6 node is anything with an IPv6 stack - cell phone, laptop, server, IPv6 thermometer (yes, someone makes one already) or any embedded device. If you have a better suggestion for a definition, I would be happy to review it. John > > Daniel > > > ===================================== > Soohong Daniel Park > Junior Researcher > Mobile Platform Group > Digital Media R&D Center > Samsung Electronics Co.,LTD > > TEL:+82-31-200-3728 > FAX:+82-31-200-3147 > H.P:+82-11-9950-4655 > mailto:soohong.park@samsung.com > ===================================== > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 17 16:01:59 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI01wgs021744; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBI01vCL021743; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:01:57 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI01sgs021736 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBI025Dp011943 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:02:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from realname ([203.254.224.24]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26901 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from custom-daemon.mailout1.samsung.com by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) id <0H7A00101G34CM@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:01:52 +0900 (KST) Received: from ep_mmp1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H7A00J98G347A@mailout1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:01:52 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniel7209 ([168.219.203.183]) by mmp1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.05 (built Nov 6 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H7A0008CGEZHJ@mmp1.samsung.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:08:59 +0900 (KST) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:00:09 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt In-reply-to: To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Message-id: <000a01c2a628$6ded3500$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >In what cases will stateless address autoconfiguration fail? If it fails, there is always the possibility of setting addresses by user interaction >(typing in the addresses). Stateful is dependent upon DHCPv6, and users cannot depend that it will be implemented everywhere, especially >since it is not a standard yet. IESG has approved DHCPv6 as a Proposed Standard. Basically, stateful address autoconfiguration is more useful than typing in the addresses. Because IPv6 address is far more complex. Daniel -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 17 21:50:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI5oqgs022847; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBI5oppx022846; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:50:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI5omgs022839 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBI5owXq000592 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09375 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:50:52 -0700 (MST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBI5o8012218 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:50:08 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:50:51 +0200 Received: from esebe006.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.46]) by esebh004.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:50:51 +0200 Received: from esebe022.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.113]) by esebe006.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:50:50 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:50:50 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Thread-Index: AcKmKBz6p28vrO4wRRC4W+zreHEpkgAMPW4g To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Dec 2002 05:50:50.0903 (UTC) FILETIME=[6BB3A270:01C2A659] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBI5ongs022840 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Daniel, I agree with you, one way to split it would be hosts and servers. I have suggest this, but the WG wanted a very simple definition, with no new terms. Since host / server is not defined in earlier documents, there is a terminology problems with earlier documents, So the WG decided not to use such terms. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Soohong Daniel Park [mailto:soohong.park@samsung.com] > Sent: 18 December, 2002 01:51 > To: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt > > > I am interested in home network of course using of IPv6. > When I thought a definition of IPv6 node, I separated two kinds of > nodes, > one is "active IPv6 node" which need to communicate another node and > bidirectional connection > the other is "passive IPv6 node" which is just controlled not try to > access another node and unidirectional connection > As you said below, thermometer is only passive node, > therefore it is not > need DNS resolving. > IPv6 node is very very widely, then almost possibility must be > considered not only PC or laptop... > e.g. > active IPv6 node : almost pc, laptop, PDA, hand-held devices, > passive IPv6 node : thermometer, lighting, washer, refrigerator, some > kinds of home appliances > > Daniel > > > From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:09 PM > To: soohong.park@samsung.com > Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt > > > Hi Daniel, > > > 4.5.5 "....Stateful Address Autoconfiguration MAY be > supported...." I > > am confusing "MAY" When above node is fail to obtain > stateless address > > > autoconfiguration, if node didn't have Stateful AA function, it is > > impossible to make each own address. so I think "Should" is better. > > In what cases will stateless address autoconfiguration fail? If it > fails, there is always the possibility of setting addresses by user > interaction (typing in the addresses). Stateful is dependent upon > DHCPv6, and users cannot depend that it will be implemented > everywhere, > especially > since it is not a standard yet. > > > 4.6.1 > > This section is more related mobileip, not general IPv6 node > > requirement. > > MobileIP is actually considered as part of IPv6, but I get your point. > This I could move into the MIP section. > > > > 5.2 "... Not all nodes will need to resolve addresses" > > If yes, how can we obtain wanted address ? , basically we > > don't memorize IPv6 address. > > Some nodes will be servers only and only accept incoming requestions. > Think of a thermometer with an IPv6 stack. It will never need DNS. > > > in addition, as 1.2, Desctiption of an IPv6 node is so > ambiguous. In > > this draft, almost requirement is for general node which is > pc, laptop > > > and that kind of thing. But implemented IPv6 is not only > general node > > but also various devices (home appliance, tiny device and so on) > > then you should write clear definition of IPv6 node. > > Since this requirement will be referred to implement widely, > > all section must be clear. > > It is ambiguous for a reason, as an IPv6 node is anything with an IPv6 > stack - cell phone, laptop, server, IPv6 thermometer (yes, > someone makes > one already) or any embedded device. If you have a better suggestion > for > a definition, I would be happy to review it. > > John > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > ===================================== > > Soohong Daniel Park > > Junior Researcher > > Mobile Platform Group > > Digital Media R&D Center > > Samsung Electronics Co.,LTD > > > > TEL:+82-31-200-3728 > > FAX:+82-31-200-3147 > > H.P:+82-11-9950-4655 > > mailto:soohong.park@samsung.com > > ===================================== > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 17 22:31:21 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI6VKgs023107; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBI6VKi5023106; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:31:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI6VGgs023099 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBI6VRuk028070 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07042 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:31:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBI6VEl15118; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:31:15 +0200 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:31:14 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Soohong Daniel Park cc: john.loughney@nokia.com, Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt In-Reply-To: <000a01c2a628$6ded3500$b7cbdba8@daniel7209> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Soohong Daniel Park wrote: > Basically, stateful address autoconfiguration is more useful than typing > in the addresses. > Because IPv6 address is far more complex. Useful for who? I certainly find typing addresses much more useful. Many IPv6 addresses are very easy to remember; about the same as IPv4 (not considering ones based on EUI64 of course). -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Wed Dec 18 01:53:02 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI9r0gs023546; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBI9r09p023545; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:53:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBI9qrgs023538 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBI9r4Xq002553 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from theory.cs.uni-bonn.de (theory.cs.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.211]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05988 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from newton.cs.uni-bonn.de (newton.cs.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.212]) by theory.cs.uni-bonn.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA03541; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:52:54 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ignatios@localhost) by newton.cs.uni-bonn.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA06996; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:52:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:52:54 +0100 From: Ignatios Souvatzis To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Cc: Quality Quorum , Margaret Wasserman , Michel Py , Pekka Savola , Christian Huitema , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: "unique enough" [RE: globally unique site local addresses] Message-ID: <20021218095254.GB4864@newton.cs.uni-bonn.de> References: <2443F84E-1066-11D7-BE91-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=x-unknown; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CdrF4e02JqNVZeln" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2443F84E-1066-11D7-BE91-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 15, 2002 at 08:48:11PM +0100, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > >If can we provide a compelling architecture without private address > >then there should be no private addresses, otherwise NAT is a force=20 > >major > >issue and we have to redo all the applications which are broken by NAT > >(peeing against the wind has its obvious perils, so there is no reason > >to get upset.). > > > I like to see this the other way around. If we invent new applications=20 > that won't work through NAT - people might find an incentive to not use= =20 > it. There are old ones around... (reminds me I want to write a talkv6 specification and implementation) although I'm afraid with yet another spec= ial=20 hackery you can make _each one of them_ work. Regards, -is --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQEVAgUBPgBFdDCn4om+4LhpAQEA7wgAx6bLvbcYYrEnijeSHennwxoFH5eqpOfh tfMhWUumpDQ0I2GwGmo1YYZnzeqYqrCiXxqUWDWG7kE8If6LmzeAsNG13yjO3hmM +DBHr25VK1XJpkBGoMkt810yJESbQwVhFa6+t99earZNQzpPtSuWofGjavfGoNDq 1sgMoqUMElbEanvrVFVm2dGBXqxs6Hh42CmQAFeLNmOBq1jfszd6Owg+NwmdgrA6 DeITokZyyVoq5QPJhcbOHjqDmwaV4oPadHLxJrorDEFJogzg4qKTg4sgt8uPuk7v uoT22136f9h3wRGf5cM/9R4whoFe6JTDcIJFDXm00IY6RwEME2pX9Q== =oV7k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 19 00:53:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBJ8rpgs028084; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 00:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBJ8rpcb028083; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 00:53:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBJ8rlgs028076 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 00:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBJ8rvXq008087 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 00:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p-mail2 (p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com [193.49.124.32]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA17205 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:53:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com ([10.193.117.129]) by 192.144.74.32 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:57:29 +0100 Received: from lanmhs50.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.21.52]) by parsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:52:17 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Subject: RE: beloeil-ipv6-dns-resolver-option-00 comments Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:52:17 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: beloeil-ipv6-dns-resolver-option-00 comments Thread-Index: AcKlsRYf4G+9t8fJQPKlaJe/dK14pQBiqWmA From: "BELOEIL Luc FTRD/DMI/CAE" To: "Pekka Savola" , Cc: "BELOEIL Luc FTRD/DMI" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Dec 2002 08:52:17.0819 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF38EEB0:01C2A73B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBJ8rmgs028077 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Thanks a lot for your comments (again). >De: Pekka Savola [pekkas@netcore.fi] > >I'm also bringing this to the w.g. list, as I believe an RA option for >discovering DNS resolvers could be one very viable mechanism. > >Generic comments: > > 1) It's not clear to me whether this option is to be included in periodic >unsolicited router advertisements, or only in explicit request-reply >pairs. Based on the fact that the option includes Code reply/query pair, >this seems likely to fall somewhere between the two of these. > >The way spec is written, the routers which would support DNSR option would >not include it in every RA message. (This could be considered both a good >and a bad thing.) > LB: My idea was to reduce the use of that option at a maximum. That means that routers would not have to send DNSR option in unsolicited Router Advertisements. But a node would have to ask for that option with a DNSR Query option in a Router Solicitation. Moreover the same node should also listen to DNSR option so as to not ask for that option if another node as just ask for one. What do the wg think about ? > 2) perhaps it should be explicitly stated, for clarity, that unrecognized >DNSR options must be ignored by receivers by RFC2461. > LB: ok it can be clarified > 3) Security considerations could use some additional considerations >related to adding DNS resolvers in the RS/RA messaging. At least it >should be mentioned -- I don't think there's necessarily all that >dangerous stuff out there, as if you use RA, you already have quite a lot >of trust in the system. > LB: I'm not an expert in security issues, could you explain a bit more? I have some ideas but I'm actually not sure. > 4) On systems which configure manually ie. disable RA-advertisements, I >believe this will also not be used? > >Specifics: > >The purpose is > also to enhance the efficiency of [DISCOVERY] when DHCPv6 servers can > not be used. > >==> s/servers can not be/is not/ > >4.2.2 Passive mode > > On any link a node MUST listen to Router Advertisements (DISCOVERY]. > >==> MUST is news to me. Did I miss something? > LB:... I have just read again RFC2461. Yes the "MUST" is incorrect. LB: Thanks for other comments, I will add those changes is the next version. Luc -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Thu Dec 19 11:03:32 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBJJ3Wgs029590; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBJJ3WHF029589; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBJJ3Sgs029582 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBJJ3bXq006736 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from cerberus.aebeard.com ([209.208.32.195]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24490 for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:03:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (amneris.aebeard.net [192.168.232.3]) by cerberus.aebeard.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBJJ3K9c007304; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:03:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from amneris.aebeard.net (localhost.aebeard.net [127.0.0.1]) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gBJJ3KIp001799; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:03:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from aeb1@amneris.aebeard.net) Received: from localhost (aeb1@localhost) by amneris.aebeard.net (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id gBJJ3JpW001796; Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:03:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:03:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Alan E. Beard" To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: Enforcing unreachability of site local addresses In-Reply-To: <9559D8EC-05EC-11D7-B37A-000393AB1404@kurtis.pp.se> Message-ID: <20021219135521.N1762-100000@amneris.aebeard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Kurt: First, my apologies for the delayed reply. Response inline. AEB On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > > My memory of the discussions accords with the summary given by Keith > > above. In addition, the general tenor of the discussion indicated to > > me > > that the two issues were linked: that consensus on limiting site-locals > > was contingent upon initiation of an effort to design a workable scheme > > for privately-routable PIs, with the global routing of PIs left for > > subsequent discussion. > > So the remaining question besides the PI issue would be to define > "limit" then? > Perhaps my use of the term "limit" was a bit ambiguous. I intended this to refer to the proposal, agreed to at the Atlanta IETF, to restrict the use of site-local addressing to within the boundaries of the local site; specifically, to prohibit the use of site-local addressing for transport or end-system addresses for any traffic which leaves the boundary of the site. Given the concensus at IETF 55 on this matter I hadn't imagined that further definition should be necessary, but the wording of my text was admittedly less than perfectly clear. Regards, AEB > - kurtis - > Alan E. Beard AEBeard Consulting; 4109 Chelsa Ln; Lakeland FL 33809 863.815.2529 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 04:12:11 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKCCBgs002457; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKCCBCZ002456; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKCC7gs002449 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKCCHXq005131 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19462 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:12:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA22984; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:09:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212201209.HAA22984@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:09:10 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Flow Label Specification Author(s) : J. Rajahalme, A. Conta, B. Carpenter, S. Deering Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2002-12-18 This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field, the requirements for IPv6 source nodes labeling flows, and the requirements for flow state establishment methods. The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed positions. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-18131933.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-18131933.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 04:12:39 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKCCdgs002477; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKCCdhV002476; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:39 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKCCYgs002466 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKCCjXq005188 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 04:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19663 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:12:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA23104; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:09:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212201209.HAA23104@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:09:37 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group of the IETF. Title : Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 Author(s) : R. Gilligan, S. Thomson et al. Filename : draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2002-12-18 The de facto standard application program interface (API) for TCP/IP applications is the 'sockets' interface. Although this API was developed for Unix in the early 1980s it has also been implemented on a wide variety of non-Unix systems. TCP/IP applications written using the sockets API have in the past enjoyed a high degree of portability and we would like the same portability with IPv6 applications. But changes are required to the sockets API to support IPv6 and this memo describes these changes. These include a new socket address structure to carry IPv6 addresses, new address conversion functions, and some new socket options. These extensions are designed to provide access to the basic IPv6 features required by TCP and UDP applications, including multicasting, while introducing a minimum of change into the system and providing complete compatibility for existing IPv4 applications. Additional extensions for advanced IPv6 features (raw sockets and access to the IPv6 extension headers) are defined in another document [4]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-18143644.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2002-12-18143644.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 05:11:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKDBogs003093; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKDBoI8003092; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKDBjgs003085 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKDBtuk023083 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27372 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:11:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.12]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA06190 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:11:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021220080948.02c9c708@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:10:53 -0500 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk FYI -- Margaret >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : The Impact of Site-Local Addressing in IPv6 > Author(s) : M. Wasserman > Filename : draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt > Pages : 0 > Date : 2002-12-18 > >Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6) introduces a scoped unicast >addressing architecture, including the concept of site-local >addressing. Although site-local addresses were originally >allocated for use in networks that were not yet connected to the >Internet, there has been work underway for several years to expand >the use of site-local addresses to globally connected IPv6 networks >and nodes. >The use of site-local addresses on globally connected networks and >nodes raises complex technical issues for many parts of the TCP/IP >protocol suite. Many of these issues are caused by the fact that >IPv6 sites are private address spaces, and site-local addresses are >unreachable or ambiguous outside of site boundaries. Site-local >addresses also add significant complexity at the IP layer and at >other layers of the protocol stack. In addition, many of the >benefits of site-local addressing can be achieved using mechanisms >that are significantly less complex and that cause fewer problems >than IPv6 site-local addressing. >This document makes a recommendation to limit the use of site-local >addresses to isolated, single-site networks, and offers suggestions >for less complicated mechanisms to achieve many of the benefits >currently attributed to IPv6 site-local addressing. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 09:30:03 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKHU3gs004356; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKHU3Iq004355; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:30:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKHTxgs004346 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKHUAuk013599 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x4.nokia.com (mgw-x4.nokia.com [131.228.20.27]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23175 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:30:04 -0700 (MST) From: jarno.rajahalme@nokia.com Received: from esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir04nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.36]) by mgw-x4.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBKHVat15298 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:31:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir04nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:26:54 +0200 Received: from esebe004.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.44]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:26:54 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:26:53 +0200 Message-ID: <009CA59D1752DD448E07F8EB2F9117570216EB13@esebe004.ntc.nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt Thread-Index: AcKoIf7mywMTclJZTYO4IaVyI4v1IgAKbnTA To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 17:26:54.0757 (UTC) FILETIME=[FDB98550:01C2A84C] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBKHU0gs004349 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk With the -04 version we have addressed the concerns raised on the -03 in the Atlanta meeting. The document structure has been simplified, and the text has been revised with the "minimal but sufficient" target in mind. Hopefully all repetition, as well as most MAYs and most SHOULDs are gone, as they were addressing issues secondary to the flow label specification itself. The section 3 (former 4) is rearranged to address the need to provide guidance for IPv6 stack implementers. Now it states the absolute minimum of what a stack should do in absence of any flow state establishment methods. It no longer defines any kind of "abstract programming interface", those are better addressed in the API specifications. The main part of the spec (section 2) no longer contains the statement that nodes should not create state in absence of a defined flow state establishment method. It did not make any sense any more as the default timeout was defined. Jarno > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:09 PM > Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Version 6 Working Group > Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : IPv6 Flow Label Specification > Author(s) : J. Rajahalme, A. Conta, B. Carpenter, > S. Deering > Filename : draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2002-12-18 > > This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field, the requirements > for IPv6 source nodes labeling flows, and the requirements for flow > state establishment methods. > The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow > classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed > positions. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt > > To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to > ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body > of the message. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login > with the username > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, > type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipv6-flow-label-04.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 12:11:05 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKB4gs005387; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKKB42P005386; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKAwgs005379 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKKB8uk002606 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10892 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-hub-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.82]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3710.0); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:10:58 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6803.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:00 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Thread-Index: AcKoDMcqkpTQIml0Tg+QaB3sKF+n5gAVry1A From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Bill Manning" , "Bound, Jim" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 20:10:59.0177 (UTC) FILETIME=[E974CD90:01C2A863] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBKKAwgs005380 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > % What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and some of us in > % deployment land are bugging folks like that now. > > Jim, > what is the issue here? I have both linksys and netgear > kit in the home network and both pass native IPv6. granted > not all their kit works w/ IPv6. > > --bill Linksys and Netgear build different types of equipment. Their hub and bridge/switch products most probably pass IPv6 through without any problem. But IPv6 will not pass through a "home router" (e.g. a DSL router) unless that device has some adequate code. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Fri Dec 20 12:50:37 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKobgs005660; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKKobwh005659; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:50:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKoXgs005652 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKKoiuk013066 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:50:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from epo.stelvio.nl (epo.stelvio.nl [62.58.1.135]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14265 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by epo.stelvio.nl (Postfix, from userid 0) id A8974B01A6; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:50:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by epo.stelvio.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88602B01A5 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:50:37 +0100 (CET) X-Mailbox-Line: From huitema@windows.microsoft.com Fri Dec 20 21:50:37 2002 Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by epo.stelvio.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823C8B01A0 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:50:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.144.134.19]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23565; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (sunroof.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.146.168.88]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKKVFuo008172; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:31:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKB4gs005387; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBKKB42P005386; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBKKAwgs005379 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBKKB8uk002606 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10892 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from 157.54.6.197 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-hub-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by RED-IMC-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:02 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.82]) by WIN-IMC-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3710.0); Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:10:58 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6803.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:00 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Thread-Index: AcKoDMcqkpTQIml0Tg+QaB3sKF+n5gAVry1A From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Bill Manning" , "Bound, Jim" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2002 20:10:59.0177 (UTC) FILETIME=[E974CD90:01C2A863] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBKKAwgs005380 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=SUBJ_ENDS_IN_Q_MARK version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > % What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and some of us in > % deployment land are bugging folks like that now. > > Jim, > what is the issue here? I have both linksys and netgear > kit in the home network and both pass native IPv6. granted > not all their kit works w/ IPv6. > > --bill Linksys and Netgear build different types of equipment. Their hub and bridge/switch products most probably pass IPv6 through without any problem. But IPv6 will not pass through a "home router" (e.g. a DSL router) unless that device has some adequate code. -- Christian Huitema -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 21 06:42:23 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLEgMgs009771; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 06:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBLEgMim009770; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 06:42:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLEgIgs009763 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 06:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBLEgRuk027661 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 06:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [219.101.47.130]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04949 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 07:42:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECC64B22; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:42:18 +0900 (JST) To: "Christian Huitema" Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: huitema's message of Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:11:00 PST. X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:42:18 +0900 Message-Id: <20021221144218.DECC64B22@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >Linksys and Netgear build different types of equipment. Their hub and >bridge/switch products most probably pass IPv6 through without any >problem. But IPv6 will not pass through a "home router" (e.g. a DSL >router) unless that device has some adequate code. (not sure what kind of codebase they're using, but anyways) if any of you have contacts in linksys/netgear, we'll be more than happy to help them out/do some clue injection. so let me know. itojun -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 21 11:52:22 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLJqLgs010413; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBLJqLu8010412; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:52:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLJqIgs010405 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBLJqRuk000795 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from Radish (eAc1Acg194.tky.mesh.ad.jp [218.42.38.194]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03188 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ishibashi.net ([127.0.0.1]) by Radish(2.2.8) with SMTP; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:52:02 +0900 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:52:02 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.25 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021220080948.02c9c708@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021220080948.02c9c708@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Margaret, Please let me verify two things on draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt. 1. Does $B!V(BThe Impact of Site-Local Addressing in IPv6$B!W(Btry to prohibit the use of SBR completely? 2. By the statement, "IPv6 site-local addresses be limited to use on isolated, single-site networks.", are you prohibiting the network below? Global IPv6 Internet ------- SBR ------ Node with Global IP and Site-Local IP By the way, our SBR is neither research nor test implementation. -- Hiroki Ishibashi bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sat Dec 21 13:43:01 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLLh0gs010580; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBLLh0OG010579; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:43:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBLLgvgs010572 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:42:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBLLh6uk013094 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21582 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:43:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.2]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00106; Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:42:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:41:48 -0500 To: Hiroki Ishibashi From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021220080948.02c9c708@mail.windriver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021220080948.02c9c708@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Hiroki, >Please let me verify two things on draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt. > >1. Does $B!V(BThe Impact of Site-Local Addressing in IPv6$B!W(Btry to > prohibit the use of SBR completely? If the WG chooses to follow the recommendations in this document, then SBRs will not longer be necessary. >2. By the statement, > "IPv6 site-local addresses be limited to use on isolated, > single-site networks.", > > are you prohibiting the network below? > > Global IPv6 Internet ------- SBR ------ Node with > Global IP and > Site-Local IP Exactly. This would not be an isolated, single-site network, as it is connected to the global Internet. >By the way, our SBR is neither research nor test implementation. Very interesting. Is this a commercial product, or expected to become one? What routing protocols does it include? Did you experience the problems described in my document? If so, how did you resolve them? Thanks, Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 03:47:51 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMBlogs011506; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBMBlovS011505; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:47:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMBllgs011498 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBMBlguk022501 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcore.fi (netcore.fi [193.94.160.1]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA23365 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:47:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gBMBl6k32006; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:47:06 +0200 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:47:05 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Christian Huitema cc: Bill Manning , "Bound, Jim" , , Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Christian Huitema wrote: > > % What we need is netgear and linksys to get on board and some of us > in > > % deployment land are bugging folks like that now. > > > > Jim, > > what is the issue here? I have both linksys and netgear > > kit in the home network and both pass native IPv6. granted > > not all their kit works w/ IPv6. > > > > --bill > > Linksys and Netgear build different types of equipment. Their hub and > bridge/switch products most probably pass IPv6 through without any > problem. But IPv6 will not pass through a "home router" (e.g. a DSL > router) unless that device has some adequate code. I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Finland it's relatively common to build DSL networks using bridged ATM encapsulation, rather than routed ATM encapsulation, or PPPoE (PPPoA is another issue). (From IPv4 perspective, this has the benefit that the ISP can use public IP addresses better -- no need for NATting DSL router). In this scenario, the DSL router just acts as a smart bridge. Native IPv6 works just fine through the DSL router/bridge which knows nothing about IPv6. Deploying IPv6 in (some) DSL networks doesn't need to be complex, quite the contrary... -- Pekka Savola "Tell me of difficulties surmounted, Netcore Oy not those you stumble over and fall" Systems. Networks. Security. -- Robert Jordan: A Crown of Swords -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 04:40:10 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMCe9gs011643; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBMCe9JF011642; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:40:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMCe6gs011635 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBMCeFXq004141 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from purgatory.unfix.org (cust.92.136.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.92.136]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10823 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:40:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5A27ABE; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:40:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from limbo (limbo.unfix.org [::ffff:10.100.13.33]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897147A7B; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:40:32 +0100 (CET) From: "Jeroen Massar" To: "'Pekka Savola'" , "'Christian Huitema'" Cc: "'Bill Manning'" , "'Bound, Jim'" , , Subject: RE: Retail IPv6 Service in the US? Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:41:04 +0100 Organization: Unfix Message-ID: <001101c2a9b7$65ca9600$210d640a@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS @ purgatory.unfix.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBMCe6gs011636 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Pekka Savola wrote: > I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Finland it's > relatively common to build DSL networks using bridged ATM > encapsulation, > rather than routed ATM encapsulation, or PPPoE (PPPoA is > another issue). > (From IPv4 perspective, this has the benefit that the ISP can > use public > IP addresses better -- no need for NATting DSL router). > > In this scenario, the DSL router just acts as a smart bridge. > > Native IPv6 works just fine through the DSL router/bridge which knows > nothing about IPv6. Which I have at my home, but... unfortunatly for me the Redback SMS on which my ADSL line terminates doesn't do IPv6, so I am out of luck there. There is a small possibility though that my upstream ISP will mirror out the IPv6 data to anothere router which could then take care of it. Fortunatly my line terminates at AMS-IX, thus it's only 1ms to our IPng.nl tunnelbox, thus at least latency isn't an issue using it tunneled. Cistron does have an sTLA now fortunatly, so they are aware of IPv6. (And they did do IPv6 back in 1998 already, sad that their hw doesn't do it :( Thus not only the enduser should be able to do it, but the provider side too. The enduser is going to need to upgrade their OS most of the time at the moment. But that shouldn't be a big issue, another point is ofcourse: applications... > Deploying IPv6 in (some) DSL networks doesn't need to be > complex, quite the contrary... Indeed, that's why Xs4all (www.xs4all.nl) provides a second service called PowerDSL which does go over the abovementioned bbned network and thus now they do provide native IPv6. Their first 'mxstream' service from KPN, which is a form of adsl too uses PPTP tunnels though and I don't think KPN has enough clue for enabling IPv6 over them :( Chello does native IPv6 to many endusers even though the endusers aren't aware. Which is not a good thing either imho, awareness is something we should focus on too. Maybe there should be a big 'these ISP's do Retail IPv6' list? And not only for the US, but for the complete world. Looking at my GRH TLA stats: http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/tla/ APNIC: 92 of which 29 didn't get announced ARIN: 42 ........ 16 ... RIPE: 139 ........ 43 ... But ofcourse ISP's giving access to endusers could be among the working ones... Greets, Jeroen -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 05:25:12 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMDPCgs011768; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBMDPCpU011767; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:25:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMDP8gs011760 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBMDPHXq008636 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta0 ([61.144.161.10]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25063 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 06:25:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from ly (mta0 [172.17.1.62]) by mta0.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with ESMTPA id <0H7I009L2VV5LW@mta0.huawei.com> for ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:23:30 +0800 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:24:27 +0800 From: Keshava Ayanur Subject: about IPV6 FIB .. To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, 6bone@mailman.isi.edu Message-id: <000001c2a9bd$74082880$68226e0a@HUAWEI.COM> Organization: Huawei Technology MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi, Can I get more information IPV6 FIB? Other than 3 fibs (link,site,global) do we need to have anything for multicast . More information about IPV6 Fib design document/information Will be help full. Thanks, Keshava -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 05:49:12 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMDnCgs011866; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBMDnCiU011865; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:49:12 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBMDn9gs011858 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBMDnHuk003088 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA00047 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 06:49:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.12]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA13660; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 05:48:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021222084036.0462f3d8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 08:48:07 -0500 To: Keshava Ayanur From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: about IPV6 FIB .. Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, 6bone@mailman.isi.edu In-Reply-To: <000001c2a9bd$74082880$68226e0a@HUAWEI.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Keshava, At 09:24 PM 12/22/2002 +0800, Keshava Ayanur wrote: >Hi, > Can I get more information IPV6 FIB? > Other than 3 fibs (link,site,global) do we need to have anything > for multicast . There is no need to have a link-local FIB, as packets to/from link-local addresses are never forwarded. An intra-site node (one that is not capable of being used on a site border) will need to have two conceptual unicast FIBs (one site-local, and one global), although it is possible (if desired) to implement them as a single table. A site-border node (a router or a multi-interface host that can be used on a site border) will need to have one global unicast FIB, and multiple site-local unicast FIBs, one for each attached site. In most cases, I believe that a mutlicast FIB (if present) will be separate from the unicast FIBs. > More information about IPV6 Fib design document/information > Will be help full. If you haven't read it already, you should read the IPv6 scoped address architecture which can be found at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipngwg-scoping-arch-04.txt Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 23:37:36 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBN7bags012923; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBN7bZ9I012922; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBN7bUgs012908 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBN7beXq003728 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ganesh.ctd.hctech.com ([202.54.64.2]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10155 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by GANESH with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:19:04 +0530 Message-ID: <55E277B99171E041ABF5F4B1C6DDCA06FB0563@haritha.hclt.com> From: "Jeyanath Minto J - CTD, Chennai." To: john.loughney@nokia.com Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:09:50 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk hi john, what do u meant say? Multihomed host is beyond this document? is Running the routing protocol or necessary configuration not a minimum requirement of multihomed host? One more Question regarding IPv6 mib ? RFCs and the Draft are follow contractible apporaches. Node requirement draft support RFCs but not the drafts. is there any reason for not following the drafts?. Minto -----Original Message----- From: john.loughney@nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 11:30 AM To: jeyananthj@ctd.hcltech.com Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Hi Minto, This does not sound like a minimum requirement for IPv6 nodes - are you proposing that IPv6 thermometer would need multihoming? The current document does not state this is the maximum functionality for an IPv6 node, but it is much more meant to be a minimum set of fucntionality. John > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Jeyanath Minto J - CTD, Chennai. > [mailto:jeyananthj@ctd.hcltech.com] > Sent: 22 December, 2002 17:15 > To: Loughney John (NRC/Helsinki) > Subject: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt > > > > hi John Loughney, > > why this draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01 doesnt cover > anything related > to multihomed host. > multihomed host should run the routing protocol or it needs some > configuration. Am I right ? > dont we need to specify this ? > > Minto > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 22 23:37:38 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBN7bbgs012926; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBN7bbC1012925; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBN7bVgs012915 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBN7bfuk011527 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rediffmail.com (webmail26.rediffmail.com [203.199.83.148] (may be forged)) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA19258 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2002 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18887 invoked by uid 510); 23 Dec 2002 07:35:40 -0000 Date: 23 Dec 2002 07:35:40 -0000 Message-ID: <20021223073540.18886.qmail@webmail26.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.197.138.194) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 23 dec 2002 07:35:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "aridaman kaushik" Reply-To: "aridaman kaushik" To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Cc: 6bone@mailman.isi.edu Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi all, I have a doubt regarding FIB implementation. We are using one alogorithm which is consuming too much memory for memtainace of routing tabel. Is there any efficient algorithm fast(look up) and takes less memory for storing Ipv6 routes. regards ari. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 23 04:13:09 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBNCD9gs013545; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBNCD9Gn013544; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:13:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBNCD5gs013537 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBNCDGXq005687 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA15496 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:13:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.9]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA18101; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:12:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223065931.048c7a48@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:10:16 -0500 To: "aridaman kaushik" From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com, 6bone@mailman.isi.edu In-Reply-To: <20021223073540.18886.qmail@webmail26.rediffmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBNCD6gs013538 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Ari, The IETF does not, typically, specify algorithms. There has been quite a bit of research done in efficient FIB storage algorithms in other fora, such as the ACM, though. Last time I looked into this topic (a couple of years ago), trie-based algorithms were very popular, and the Luleå algorithm, developed at Luleå University of Technology in Sweden was considered among the best for building memory efficient, high performance forwarding tables. You may want to look for more recent work, though, before committing to a particular algorithm. Good luck! Margaret At 07:35 AM 12/23/2002 +0000, aridaman kaushik wrote: >Hi all, > I have a doubt regarding FIB implementation. > >We are using one alogorithm which is consuming too much memory >for memtainace of routing tabel. Is there any efficient algorithm >fast(look up) and takes less memory for storing Ipv6 routes. > >regards >ari. > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List >IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng >FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng >Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 23 05:28:15 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBNDSFgs014160; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBNDSEYt014159; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBNDSBgs014152 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBNDSMXq013811 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgw-x1.nokia.com (mgw-x1.nokia.com [131.228.20.21]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11433 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 06:28:16 -0700 (MST) From: john.loughney@nokia.com Received: from esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir01nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.33]) by mgw-x1.nokia.com (Switch-2.2.1/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id gBNDRS001538 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:27:28 +0200 (EET) Received: from esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com (unverified) by esvir01nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:23:07 +0200 Received: from esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.39]) by esebh002.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:23:05 +0200 Received: from esebe022.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.113]) by esebe003.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:23:05 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:23:04 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ipv6-node-requirements-01.txt Thread-Index: AcKqViryvhhEemD7RiqjaWmCk2d8twAL6dVQ To: Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Dec 2002 13:23:05.0427 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D342A30:01C2AA86] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBNDSCgs014153 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Minto, > what do u meant say? Multihomed host is beyond this document? What I mean is that it is not a requirement that an IPv6 Node be multihomed. > is Running the routing protocol or necessary configuration > not a minimum requirement of multihomed host? A multihomed host is not defined by the draft. > One more Question regarding IPv6 mib ? > > RFCs and the Draft are follow contractible apporaches. > Node requirement draft support RFCs but not the drafts. > is there any reason for not following the drafts?. I am not sure that I fully understand your question. You may want to remember that Internet Drafts are not standards. John -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 23 18:24:46 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO2Ojgs019689; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBO2OjP5019688; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:24:45 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO2Oggs019681 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com ([192.18.42.14]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBO2Oruk013509 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp (TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp [210.143.35.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14624 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.192]) by TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W01080315) with ESMTP id gBO2Ojw16853; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:24:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailsv4.nec.co.jp (mailgate51.nec.co.jp [10.7.69.190]) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) with ESMTP id gBO2Oii06243; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:24:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from ichizo.jp.nec.com (ichizo.jp.nec.com [10.26.220.7]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV4-NEC) with ESMTP id gBO2OhH26386; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:24:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from [10.41.211.53] by mail.jp.nec.com; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:24:43 +0900 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:24:43 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.25 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Margaret, > >Hi Hiroki, > >>Please let me verify two things on draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt. >> >>1. Does [The Impact of Site-Local Addressing in IPv6] try to >> prohibit the use of SBR completely? > >If the WG chooses to follow the recommendations in this document, >then SBRs will not longer be necessary. > >>2. By the statement, >> "IPv6 site-local addresses be limited to use on isolated, >> single-site networks.", >> >> are you prohibiting the network below? >> >> Global IPv6 Internet ------- SBR ------ Node with >> Global IP and >> Site-Local IP > >Exactly. This would not be an isolated, single-site network, >as it is connected to the global Internet. > >>By the way, our SBR is neither research nor test implementation. > >Very interesting. Is this a commercial product, or expected to >become one? What routing protocols does it include? Did you >experience the problems described in my document? If so, how >did you resolve them? Yes, our SBR routers have been shipped since September, 2000 as a commercial IPv4/IPv6 dual router. It supports RIPng, OSPFv3, and BGP4+. I have explained our SBR support and routing protocols in this mailing list once before when the site-local issues were brought up. We are not supporting BGP4+ w/ SBR, but RIPng and OSPFv3. RIPng is easy to support as Brian Haberman explained at Atlanta. For OSPFv3, as you described in I-D, we are allocating separate OSPF process for each area. The current OSPFv3 does not consider SBR at all. This is the reason for separating OSPF processes. I have not played with SBR with DNS, but DNS related issues seem to be very tricky. Thank you, ==== HIROKI ISHIBASHI ================================================== 3rd Network Systems Development Department, Business Networks Division E-mail: bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp Phone: +81-4-7185-7344 Fax: +81-4-7185-7947 ================================================== NEC Corporation ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 23 18:34:52 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO2Yqgs019802; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBO2Yqi7019801; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:34:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO2Yngs019794 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBO2YxXq021262 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13539 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:34:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.12]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA09932; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:34:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223212549.049eebf0@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:33:36 -0500 To: Hiroki Ishibashi From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Hiroki, >Yes, our SBR routers have been shipped since September, 2000 as >a commercial IPv4/IPv6 dual router. It supports RIPng, OSPFv3, and >BGP4+. I have explained our SBR support and routing protocols in this >mailing list once before when the site-local issues were brought up. I do remember your previous mail. I didn't realize, though, that you were talking about a commercial product -- I thought that you had a research implementation. I apologize for my mistake. >For OSPFv3, as you described in I-D, we are allocating separate OSPF >process for each area. The current OSPFv3 does not consider SBR at all. >This is the reason for separating OSPF processes. Do these processes share a single global routing table, based on the link-state advertisement from all peers? Or perhaps you run one "global" process and one "site-local" process per site? I am interested to understand whether you maintain a single peering relationship with each peer, exchanging both site-local and global information in the same LSAs, or whether you have separate peering relationships (and separate LSAs) for global and site-local information. I believe that it would work either way, but that we may need to specify which way it should be done, as I am not sure that the two choices are compatible. >I have not played with SBR with DNS, but DNS related issues seem to be >very tricky. Indeed. Of course, most commercial routers are not frequently used as client nodes, so the DNS issues are more of a concern for workstation-based routers and/or site border hosts. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 23 20:53:24 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO4rNgs020103; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBO4rNCs020102; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBO4rKgs020095 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBO4rUXq007288 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from TYO202.gate.nec.co.jp (TYO202.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.202]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19927 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:53:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailgate4.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.195]) by TYO202.gate.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W01080315) with ESMTP id gBO4rLU15408; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:53:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailsv.nec.co.jp (mailgate51.nec.co.jp [10.7.69.196]) by mailgate4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) with ESMTP id gBO4rL600966; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:53:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from zoroku.jp.nec.com (zoroku.jp.nec.com [10.26.220.8]) by mailsv.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV-NEC) with ESMTP id gBO4rK129716; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:53:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from [10.41.211.53] by mail.jp.nec.com; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:53:20 +0900 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:53:19 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.25 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223212549.049eebf0@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223212549.049eebf0@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <0C2AB0860D047bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Margaret, > >>For OSPFv3, as you described in I-D, we are allocating separate OSPF >>process for each area. The current OSPFv3 does not consider SBR at all. >>This is the reason for separating OSPF processes. > >Do these processes share a single global routing table, based on >the link-state advertisement from all peers? Or perhaps you run one >"global" process and one "site-local" process per site? Currently, processes for sites are completely separated. Let's say, a router has 4 interfaces, if1, if2, if3, and if4. Sites are configured as: Site1 has if1 and if4. Site2 has if2 and if3. In our current implementation, two OSPF processes are created as: OSPF process 1 runs for Site1. OSPF process 2 runs for Site2. On each process, all routing information, including global and site-local are handled. Because of this, a user need to "redistribute" global prefixes (not site-local prefixes) each other. This is the demerit of separating OSPF process per site. As you described in the previous mail, we could run one "global" process and one "site-local" process per site. In this case, a interface need to belong to two OSPF processes, one for global and another for site. In this case, "redistribution" of global prefixes among sites will not be required. In both cases, multiple OSPF processes are required since global and site-local information could appear in single LSA according to the current OSPFv3 RFC. if1 | /Site Boundary | / | / +---------+-----------+ | /| | Site1 / | | / | if4-----------+ --------------- +---------- if2 | / | | / Site2 | |/ | +----------+----------+ / | / | / | / | if3 Thank you, Hiroki Ishibashi bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 24 03:37:34 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBOBbYgs020716; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBOBbYLm020715; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:37:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBOBbVgs020708 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBOBbeXq025184 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06135 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:37:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.12]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA25435; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021224062425.0498eb80@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:30:16 -0500 To: Hiroki Ishibashi From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <0C2AB0860D047bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223212549.049eebf0@mail.windriver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021223212549.049eebf0@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > >On each process, all routing information, including global and >site-local are handled. Because of this, a user need to "redistribute" >global prefixes (not site-local prefixes) each other. >This is the demerit of separating OSPF process per site. Thanks, Hiroki. I think I understand... Do you have some type of internal filtering mechanism to decide which routes to "redistribute" from one OSPF process to the others? Or are the OSPF processes using OSPF to speak to each other? Externally, from an OSPF perspective, does your SBR look like a single router? Or like multiple (two in your example) routers with logical links in between them? Thanks, Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 24 17:51:25 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBP1pPgs023146; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1/Submit) id gBP1pPAX023145; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:51:25 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7.Beta1+Sun/8.12.7.Beta1) with ESMTP id gBP1pMgs023138 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBP1pVXq027488 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp (TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.214]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17582 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2002 18:51:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailgate4.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.193]) by TYO201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W01080315) with ESMTP id gBP1pMw05369; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:51:23 +0900 (JST) Received: from mailsv.nec.co.jp (mailgate52.nec.co.jp [10.7.69.191]) by mailgate4.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) with ESMTP id gBP1pMo27791; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:51:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from saigo.jp.nec.com (saigo.jp.nec.com [10.26.220.6]) by mailsv.nec.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-MAILSV-NEC) with ESMTP id gBP1pK103583; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:51:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from [10.41.211.53] by mail.jp.nec.com; Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:50:37 +0900 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 10:50:36 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.25 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021224062425.0498eb80@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021224062425.0498eb80@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <19C2ABB80536D9bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Margaret, > >> >>On each process, all routing information, including global and >>site-local are handled. Because of this, a user need to "redistribute" >>global prefixes (not site-local prefixes) each other. >>This is the demerit of separating OSPF process per site. > >Thanks, Hiroki. I think I understand... > >Do you have some type of internal filtering mechanism to decide >which routes to "redistribute" from one OSPF process to the others? No, one has to do it manually as you do for any other routing protocols. It is much similar to the route redistribution from OSPF to BGP for example. >Or are the OSPF processes using OSPF to speak to each other? > >Externally, from an OSPF perspective, does your SBR look like a >single router? Or like multiple (two in your example) routers >with logical links in between them? > Yes and No... It is a hard question. In the case of: On each process, all routing information, including global and site-local are handled. Because of this, a user need to "redistribute"global prefixes (not site-local prefixes) each other.This is the demerit of separating OSPF process per site. global prefixes are redistributed among OSPF processes, so for a OSPF process, routing information redistributed from other OSPF processes are treated as AS-external (type 5 LSA) routes. This is the difference compared with the non-SBR OSPF case. In the case of: one "global" process and one "site-local" process per site. In this case, a interface need to belong to two OSPF processes, one for global and another for site. from the global prefixes' point of view, single OSPF process covers all sites, so the issue in the 1st case will not occur. This might be a little harder for programmers. In any case, if one wants to handle global and site-local prefixes with single OSPF process, someone needs to write an I-D to specify how to handle LSAs. Thank you, Hiroki Ishibashi bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 29 11:39:08 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTJd816004513; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBTJd7i3004512; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:39:07 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTJd416004505 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBTJdEXq012598 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from Radish (eAc1Acg194.tky.mesh.ad.jp [218.42.38.194]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA26290 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ishibashi.net ([127.0.0.1]) by Radish(2.2.8) with SMTP; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:38:43 +0900 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:38:42 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt To: Margaret Wasserman Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.29 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> Message-Id: <75C2AF71E4D8C7bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Margaret, >>2. By the statement, >> "IPv6 site-local addresses be limited to use on isolated, >> single-site networks.", >> >> are you prohibiting the network below? >> >> Global IPv6 Internet ------- SBR ------ Node with >> Global IP and >> Site-Local IP > >Exactly. This would not be an isolated, single-site network, >as it is connected to the global Internet. In the Atlanta meeting, I voted for the Moderate usage. The choices were as below: - Limited usage only used in disconnected sites no multi-site nodes - Moderate usage simple site-border router no multi-site host or router requirements two-faces/split DNS - Full usage require all nodes to be multi-site routing protocols aware of site boundaries multi-site DNS and the poll result was: No consensus: ~30 Remove, ~51 Limited, ~57 Moderate, ~17 Full I know that you are writing for the Limited usage, but your document does not leave the possibility of the Moderate usage at all. IMO, "8.2.1 Benefits for Newly-Connected Sites" in your document is most beneficial point of site-local addresses for enterprise networks. In many cases, enterprise networks are not required to have connectivity to the IPv6 Internet from the beginning. It is much like a deployment (transition) scenario, but a company can start using IPv6 as its intranet now. Allowing site-local addresses co-exiting with global addresses makes a transition from IPv6 Intranet to IPv6 Global Internet easier. Manual renumbering of site-local addresses to global addresses does not occur at one shot. Even if IPv6 WG comes up with "provider-independent global addresses", we may face the similar issues as site-local addresses. (Sorry if it's not.) I have NOT understood the concept of "provider-independent global addresses" completely. For the reason above, Site-local is beneficial for Newly-Connected Sites if the simple connected site case is allowed. Global IPv6 Internet ------- Simple SBR ------ Node with or Global IP and Filer Site-Local IP addresses This kind of IPv6 deployment is far easier for the enterprise networks. I have been thinking how to deploy IPv6 in the the enterprise networks for more than a year. Very nice work on documenting the site-local issues, anyway. Thank you, HIROKI ISHIBASHI bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 29 12:28:18 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTKSI16004605; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBTKSIsF004604; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:28:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTKRx16004597 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.36]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBTKS9uk021223 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03690 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:28:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.8]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16453; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021229151026.00b62918@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:26:42 -0500 To: Hiroki Ishibashi From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Cc: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <75C2AF71E4D8C7bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021221163732.04619cd0@mail.windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Hiroki, >I know that you are writing for the Limited usage, but your document >does not leave the possibility of the Moderate usage at all. Right. The recommendation in my document is for the limited usage. Bob Hinden has written a draft that documents the moderate usage. The WG will have to decide what we want to do -- there didn't seem to be any clear consensus one way or the other in Atlanta. >For the reason above, Site-local is beneficial for Newly-Connected Sites >if the simple connected site case is allowed. > > Global IPv6 Internet ------- Simple SBR ------ Node with > or Global IP and > Filer Site-Local IP > addresses > >This kind of IPv6 deployment is far easier for the enterprise networks. >I have been thinking how to deploy IPv6 in the the enterprise networks >for more than a year. Yes. I agree that we need some way for an enterprise to number its networks for IPv6 and later connect to the IPv6 Internet. With our current policies of only routing provider-allocated addresses, a site will need to use some sort of local addressing (current site-local addressing, or some other type of non-globally-routable addressing) and add globally-routable addresses when they connect to the Internet. I'd actually rather see us come up with a way that a site can get its own globally-routable IPv6 address allocation, and have any ISP route that allocation. However, this could cause unacceptable growth of the IPv6 routing tables. I am working on another document that explains more about why we need globally-routable, provider-independent addresses (addresses that an enterprise can "own", like the original IPv4 addresses) in order to avoid the deployment of IPv6-to-IPv6 NAT. Hopefully I will post that in the next couple of weeks, and it may make it clearer why I believe that we need globally-routable, provider-independent addresses in IPv6. >Very nice work on documenting the site-local issues, anyway. Thank you. That's actually the part I have spent the most time on, as I believe that it is valuable for us to document the issues. I'd love to get some feedback from people regarding any mistakes I've made and/or any issues that I have omitted. If the WG wants to publish a document on the issues associated with site- local addressing (which had been suggested on the list), it could probably be based on the issues sections in my document, without necessarily including my recommendations. Thanks for the feedback. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 29 13:01:03 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTL1316004700; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBTL12UE004699; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:01:02 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTL0x16004692 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBTL18uk024644 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14537 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBTKxwj17018; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:00:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212292100.gBTKxwj17018@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Hiroki Ishibashi cc: Margaret Wasserman , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:38:42 +0900.") <75C2AF71E4D8C7bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:59:57 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > In the Atlanta meeting, I voted for the Moderate usage. > The choices were as below: > > - Limited usage > only used in disconnected sites > no multi-site nodes > - Moderate usage > simple site-border router > no multi-site host or router requirements > two-faces/split DNS > - Full usage > require all nodes to be multi-site > routing protocols aware of site boundaries > multi-site DNS > as I recall, Moderate was never well-defined and the definition (such as it was) kept changing. Also, this way of splitting things doesn't define how applications are supposed to deal with Moderate or Full usage, and that's a significant variable. bottom line: the Atlanta poll was essentially meaningless except to indicate that there's a significant fraction of the group that wants to discourage SLs to some extent. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 29 13:14:44 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTLEh16004774; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBTLEhPT004773; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBTLEe16004766 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from lukla.Sun.COM (lukla.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.31]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBTLEnuk025747 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by lukla.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21327 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:14:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from IDLEWYLDE.windriver.com ([147.11.233.8]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23502; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 13:13:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021229160811.02edb7c8@mail.windriver.com> X-Sender: mrw@mail.windriver.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:13:34 -0500 To: Keith Moore From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Cc: Hiroki Ishibashi , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com In-Reply-To: <200212292100.gBTKxwj17018@astro.cs.utk.edu> References: <(Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:38:42 +0900.") <75C2AF71E4D8C7bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk >bottom line: the Atlanta poll was essentially meaningless except >to indicate that there's a significant fraction of the group >that wants to discourage SLs to some extent. Based on the minutes, we agreed at the time that the "poll" did not demonstrate rough consensus of those present to pursue any particular proposal. We did ask a separate question, and did see rough consensus in the room that we wanted to limit site-locals -- to the limited proposal, the moderate proposal, or something in between. We also agreed that we needed to document the two proposals, so that we could discuss them in more detail on the list. Margaret -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Sun Dec 29 16:08:48 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBU08m16005011; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBU08lHj005010; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBU08i16005003 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 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-0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUIOr16007400 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com ([192.18.42.13]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBUIP2Xq012786 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17011 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28905; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:21:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212301821.NAA28905@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: RFC Editor , Internet Architecture Board , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: The IESG Subject: Document Action: Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 to Informational Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:21:44 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6' as an Informational RFC. This document is the product of the IP Version 6 Working Group Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Thomas Narten and Erik Nordmark. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 30 10:36:30 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUIaU16007485; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBUIaUCr007484; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUIaR16007477 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBUIaaXq014509 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25753 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:36:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id KAA02082 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id gBUIaTE11146; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:29 -0800 X-mProtect: <200212301836> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (209.157.142.168, claiming to be "spruce.iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdgGcvvh; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:36:27 PST Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20021230103453.029ed690@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:35:43 -0800 To: ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Bob Hinden Subject: Moderate Site-Local Usage Draft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk I submitted a draft on the moderate use case for IPv6 site-local addresses. Since the ID folks are on vacation until January 6, 2003, you can find a copy at: http://playground.sun.com/ipng/doc/draft-hinden-ipv6-sl-moderate-00.txt Comments appreciated. Thanks and Happy New Year! Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 30 10:49:43 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUIng16007602; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBUIngDr007601; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2sun [129.144.134.19]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUInd16007594 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail2sun.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBUInluk003824 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tndh.net (evrtwa1-ar8-4-65-020-139.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.65.20.139]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09039 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:49:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from eagleswings (127.0.0.1) by library with [XMail 1.10 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:46:03 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Keith Moore'" , "'Hiroki Ishibashi'" Cc: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , Subject: RE: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:34 -0800 Message-ID: <01d901c2b034$32420290$9f144104@eagleswings> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200212292100.gBTKxwj17018@astro.cs.utk.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sunroof.eng.sun.com id gBUInd16007595 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: > ... > bottom line: the Atlanta poll was essentially meaningless > except to indicate that there's a significant fraction of the > group that wants to discourage SLs to some extent. > I agree. The question that wasn't asked is why they want the restriction. Of the group that indicated a desire to restrict use of SL, how many of those were based on the simple fear of change, the unknown, or that SL automatically leads to nat? To be fair, I suspect that the number of participants that have actually worked through the applications and infrastructure that work or not is about the same for either side, and collectively <10% of those expressing an opinion in Atlanta. SL was not intended to be a general purpose addressing mechanism, and trying to use it as such will have failure modes. We know that large network managers will insist on being independent of their provider(s), and we know that routing that independence is a hard problem. That is the reason that multi6 was tasked with focusing on that specific issue, without distraction. Unfortunately, that group has gone into hibernation for extended periods of time, and with the latest emergence seems more interested in architectural changes that affect all applications, rather than engineering a manageable multi-homing approach. Personally I want to see us make progress on this front, and I don't care which WG gets it done. The IESG probably has a different opinion, so it may be challenging to get documents out of draft state. Fortunately we can do the work and worry about getting it to RFC later. Tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Mon Dec 30 11:01:53 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUJ1r16007691; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBUJ1rDY007690; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:01:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBUJ1n16007683 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.34]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBUJ1wXq017811 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14185 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:01:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by astro.cs.utk.edu (cf 8.9.3) with ESMTP id gBUJ1Rj27987; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:01:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200212301901.gBUJ1Rj27987@astro.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alh-ietf@tndh.net cc: "'Keith Moore'" , "'Hiroki Ishibashi'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Re: draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt In-reply-to: (Your message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:49:34 PST.") <01d901c2b034$32420290$9f144104@eagleswings> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:01:27 -0500 Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk > > bottom line: the Atlanta poll was essentially meaningless > > except to indicate that there's a significant fraction of the > > group that wants to discourage SLs to some extent. > > I agree. The question that wasn't asked is why they want the > restriction. Of the group that indicated a desire to restrict use of SL, > how many of those were based on the simple fear of change, the unknown, > or that SL automatically leads to nat? for that matter, similar questions could be asked of those who prefer full/unrestricted use of SL - since proponents of that view have certainly argued against restricting SL purely on the basis that this is a "change", and others have argued that restricting SL automatically leads to NAT. Keith -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Tue Dec 31 02:18:19 2002 Received: from sunroof.eng.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBVAIJ16010904; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 02:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7/Submit) id gBVAIJ8T010903; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 02:18:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sunroof.eng.sun.com: majordomo set sender to owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com using -f Received: from engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (engmail1mpk [129.146.1.45]) by sunroof.eng.sun.com (8.12.7+Sun/8.12.7) with ESMTP id gBVAIG16010893 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 02:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Central.Sun.COM [129.147.5.43]) by engmail1mpk.Eng.Sun.COM (8.12.2+Sun/8.12.2/ENSMAIL,v2.2) with ESMTP id gBVAIOXq019411 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 02:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Radish (Air1Aat092.ngn.mesh.ad.jp [210.147.37.92]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA25808 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:18:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from ishibashi.net ([127.0.0.1]) by Radish(2.2.8) with SMTP; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:17:45 +0900 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:17:45 +0900 From: Hiroki Ishibashi Subject: Re: Moderate Site-Local Usage Draft To: Bob Hinden , ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: TuruKame 2.29 (WinNT,500) Organization: NEC Corporation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021230103453.029ed690@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021230103453.029ed690@mailhost.iprg.nokia.com> Message-Id: <9CC2B0B5DC41F6bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp> Sender: owner-ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, >I submitted a draft on the moderate use case for IPv6 site-local addresses. > >Since the ID folks are on vacation until January 6, 2003, you can find a >copy at: > > http://playground.sun.com/ipng/doc/draft-hinden-ipv6-sl-moderate-00.txt > >Comments appreciated. I have a question in the section 4.0. > 4.0 Site-Local Moderate Use Scenario > . > . > The motivation for this use case is to restrict the use of site-local > addresses to communication inside of the site and insure that they > are less likely to be used for any site to site communication. I cannot understand what this sentence means. I believe that any site-to-site communication is supposed to be done via global addresses. Site local addresses MUST not be used for inter-site communication. Or am I misunderstanding? > Using limited scope addresses for site to site communication, while > possible (i.e., via tunneling or VPN technologies), is problematic > and makes it hard to debug problems. Overall it is simpler to use > global addresses. Does it include configured IPv6-over-IPv4 tunnels? Many IPv6 networks are built using IPv6-over-IPv4 tunnels. I am in favor of this document for site-local usages. This document appropriately limits the use of site-local addresses, and still leaves the room for future usage of them (which we don't know). Personally, I would like to have Margaret's draft-wasserman-ipv6-sl-impact-00.txt as a document on the issues associated with site-local addressing (w/o recommendations section) and Bob's draft-hinden-ipv6-sl-moderate-00.txt as a site-local usage document. I know that many people have different opinions. :-) Thank you and A Happy New Year, Hiroki Ishibashi bashi@ipv6.nec.co.jp -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List IPng Home Page: http://playground.sun.com/ipng FTP archive: ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com --------------------------------------------------------------------